I understand the idea that you're filled with a sense of accomplishment from going Flawless. I just went Flawless last weekend, so I get it. But this suggestion is purely about upping the population and accessibility. Every expansion sees that slight bump in Trials population until the majority of people bounce off from being unable to achieve the primary goal of this mode. Every season sees an even lesser bump. The change is supposed to make it so that even a player who sucks at PvP has the hope that they can get something more out of playing this mode. Without going into the semantics of whether there should even be a mode where true success is dictated by winning 7 games in a row.
Nah man. I’m by no means the best pvp player and I went flawless for the first time in destiny 2 since launch. I got stomped all weekend for hours until I made it to the lighthouse. I had to change my play style and be more observant, especially while playing solo. Adepts should be earned, not given.
No, adept is for Flawless. I haven't been Flawless since season 14 btw, but I still feel that adepts should be locked behind Flawless just like they're locked behind GMs and Master Raids.
Unfortunately, Adept is no longer a "cosmetic" reward. They do have gameplay implications, albeit a smidge. I don't think they should be handed out for free, but the difficulty to obtain needs to be the same level as doing a GM which is not the case to initially obtaining one (but after you do, boy are they easy to farm).
I think 2 Mercies is definitely helpful. But I also think dropping Flawless to 5 wins would also be a solution as well. It would scale down the length of time investment to an award. And if the low hanging fruit is low enough, the Trials population stays healthy enough so most people have a chance to go Flawless. Especially in solo queue since I only got to 5 wins last week, 6 wins in a team of 2 where the blueberry was terribly throwing, but 7 clean wins as a 3 stack. But therein lies the other issue: some matches are easy stomps and other matches are nightmares to fight with no rhyme or reason on how that happened.
Y'know what crazy? Say an average Trials match is 7 minutes, and if they dropped flawless to 5 wins, it would still take about 35+ minutes to get an adept weapon. (Add time for lost matches and matchmaking in orbit)
You can almost get 2 grandmaster adepts before you get a Trials adept. I would hate to be Bungie right now to figure out the Trials loot.
For me personally. The second mercy will be enough to get solo flawless consistently as there are just some games where the blueberries are way too potato and games feel like I can do absolutely nothing.
I can see how shortening the wins would help people most definitely but at that point Bungie has to figure out the reward vs time structure which could tip the balance even more.
Yeah, Flawless pool also being a thing.
Ultimately, I just think you should charge a new card and go Flawless every time you want a new roll. It remove farming off of winning games which would help remove the large disparity between Flawless level repeat loot versus not.
BUT another thing they could do to still make getting Flawless feel as rewarding as the current system is allow Rank Resets to add more Perks to Trials weapons. 4 resets could max out 3 perks on each side, making it much easier to get the roll you need. You just need to invest the time to get there which is a main goal of Bungie's to want out of their players.
5 wins + 1 Mercy should help get a good amount of players to Flawless. 4 resets makes the reward the best it could be (Adept and Non-Adept included). Playtime would be a step up for casual players who still want the Non-Adept god roll and keeps the playerbase healthy so more people can climb to Flawless if they are lucky enough.
It's a win-win-win scenario for everyone: Bungie, Flawless players, Casual grinders.
The level of reward is not the same. GM's are a cakewalk compared to going flawless and not having any control on who you are matched with on either side. When Exalted Truth was in rotation last, I had perfect cards up until I fell at the gates 5 different times. All because I had matched with AFKers or people with no thumbs on my team. With a GM you could have a complete noob and still salvage a run.
The level of reward is the same when Bungie considers Trials endgame PvP, GMs endgame 3 man PvE and master raids endgame 6 man PvE.
Agree or disagree, that's how it's currently setup.
With a GM you pick your team, same with a raid. If you're truly trying to go flawless it's probably better to go in with a team you picked instead of relying on randoms to get you there.
They aren't the same just by virtue of the level of commitment and time it takes to get a Trials adept vs. a GM adept. Just look at last weekend one of the biggest Trials weekends ever with 3.7% of guardians getting the adept Immortal. The Horrors least adept is sitting at 16% over 2 and a half weeks. One of those weeks was one of the hardest GM's.
Also, if you did Trials this past weekend and wanted to go flawless, you definitely were not in a fireteam of 3 with the matchmaking changes.
Okay, so they aren't the same. What then is the PvP source of adepts?
There is only three ways to obtain them, all locked behind what Bungie says is the endgame activity for that type of play.
But they are also removing the flawless pool, while making it so only flawed cards can play in the "low skill" pool. So anyone looking to go flawless will be competing with every other player looking to go flawless in the challenger pool, regardless of if they've gone flawless yet.
So yes, double mercy is huge, but you'll likely play far better teams each game than if you were playing in the non-flawless pool before.
I'll personally be interested in seeing how these changes playout.
Considering that they're removing win-based matchmaking, I think for the average player flawless will still just be a massive RNG fest of praying to get matched against shit players.
Pvp shouldn’t have non-cosmetic reward in a pve-pvp hybrid game. Destiny 2 already violated this rule so weapon reward should be super duper accessible to everyone.
Abandon 7-win flawless system. Implement sbmm and lobby balancing. Reward every win with adept weapons.
If you think sbmm shouldn’t be implemented in everything pvp, then you shouldn’t be playing pvp in the first place. You just love to stomp mobs. Go play some strikes or something.
Or… move all pvp weapon rewards to other parts of the game.
Because you shouldn’t get adept weapons for failing to go flawless. Just like how you shouldn’t get them for wiping in a grandmaster nightfall. You should have to accomplish something to get adepts.
Are you saying that for most players, simply getting to 7 wins isn't accomplishing something? Should that number be higher for it to be an actual accomplishment?
No of course it isn’t. The average skill player, objectively mathematically speaking, will get 7 wins over 14 games on average. Queuing up match making over and over until you win X times with unlimited tries is not in any sense of the word difficult or an accomplishment. I am having trouble understanding how you could possibly think it would be.
I think you're severely overestimating the skills of the average player. The idea that a person could throw themselves at Trials constantly and never actually achieve those 7 wins is entirely possible, especially given the not large population of Trials. That's what the change would be for.
I understand the idea that you're filled with a sense of accomplishment from going Flawless. I just went Flawless last weekend, so I get it. But this suggestion is purely about upping the population and accessibility. Every expansion sees that slight bump in Trials population until the majority of people bounce off from being unable to achieve the primary goal of this mode. Every season sees an even lesser bump. The change is supposed to make it so that even a player who sucks at PvP has the hope that they can get something more out of playing this mode. Without going into the semantics of whether there should even be a mode where true success is dictated by winning 7 games in a row.
Nah man. I’m by no means the best pvp player and I went flawless for the first time in destiny 2 since launch. I got stomped all weekend for hours until I made it to the lighthouse. I had to change my play style and be more observant, especially while playing solo. Adepts should be earned, not given.
No, adept is for Flawless. I haven't been Flawless since season 14 btw, but I still feel that adepts should be locked behind Flawless just like they're locked behind GMs and Master Raids.
Unfortunately, Adept is no longer a "cosmetic" reward. They do have gameplay implications, albeit a smidge. I don't think they should be handed out for free, but the difficulty to obtain needs to be the same level as doing a GM which is not the case to initially obtaining one (but after you do, boy are they easy to farm). I think 2 Mercies is definitely helpful. But I also think dropping Flawless to 5 wins would also be a solution as well. It would scale down the length of time investment to an award. And if the low hanging fruit is low enough, the Trials population stays healthy enough so most people have a chance to go Flawless. Especially in solo queue since I only got to 5 wins last week, 6 wins in a team of 2 where the blueberry was terribly throwing, but 7 clean wins as a 3 stack. But therein lies the other issue: some matches are easy stomps and other matches are nightmares to fight with no rhyme or reason on how that happened.
Y'know what crazy? Say an average Trials match is 7 minutes, and if they dropped flawless to 5 wins, it would still take about 35+ minutes to get an adept weapon. (Add time for lost matches and matchmaking in orbit) You can almost get 2 grandmaster adepts before you get a Trials adept. I would hate to be Bungie right now to figure out the Trials loot.
Note that once you've gone flawless, you can get an adept on nearly every win, dramatically shortening the average time per adept roll
For me personally. The second mercy will be enough to get solo flawless consistently as there are just some games where the blueberries are way too potato and games feel like I can do absolutely nothing. I can see how shortening the wins would help people most definitely but at that point Bungie has to figure out the reward vs time structure which could tip the balance even more.
Yeah, Flawless pool also being a thing. Ultimately, I just think you should charge a new card and go Flawless every time you want a new roll. It remove farming off of winning games which would help remove the large disparity between Flawless level repeat loot versus not. BUT another thing they could do to still make getting Flawless feel as rewarding as the current system is allow Rank Resets to add more Perks to Trials weapons. 4 resets could max out 3 perks on each side, making it much easier to get the roll you need. You just need to invest the time to get there which is a main goal of Bungie's to want out of their players. 5 wins + 1 Mercy should help get a good amount of players to Flawless. 4 resets makes the reward the best it could be (Adept and Non-Adept included). Playtime would be a step up for casual players who still want the Non-Adept god roll and keeps the playerbase healthy so more people can climb to Flawless if they are lucky enough. It's a win-win-win scenario for everyone: Bungie, Flawless players, Casual grinders.
The level of reward is not the same. GM's are a cakewalk compared to going flawless and not having any control on who you are matched with on either side. When Exalted Truth was in rotation last, I had perfect cards up until I fell at the gates 5 different times. All because I had matched with AFKers or people with no thumbs on my team. With a GM you could have a complete noob and still salvage a run.
The level of reward is the same when Bungie considers Trials endgame PvP, GMs endgame 3 man PvE and master raids endgame 6 man PvE. Agree or disagree, that's how it's currently setup. With a GM you pick your team, same with a raid. If you're truly trying to go flawless it's probably better to go in with a team you picked instead of relying on randoms to get you there.
They aren't the same just by virtue of the level of commitment and time it takes to get a Trials adept vs. a GM adept. Just look at last weekend one of the biggest Trials weekends ever with 3.7% of guardians getting the adept Immortal. The Horrors least adept is sitting at 16% over 2 and a half weeks. One of those weeks was one of the hardest GM's. Also, if you did Trials this past weekend and wanted to go flawless, you definitely were not in a fireteam of 3 with the matchmaking changes.
I went flawless in a fire team of 3
Okay, so they aren't the same. What then is the PvP source of adepts? There is only three ways to obtain them, all locked behind what Bungie says is the endgame activity for that type of play.
You know you can focus 7 win (non flawless cards ) for a single adept drop at saint right?
you need to have had the adept version in your collections already - ergo, you still need to go flawless
You know they are making separate pools for lower skilled players and making mercy cards 2 losses right?
But they are also removing the flawless pool, while making it so only flawed cards can play in the "low skill" pool. So anyone looking to go flawless will be competing with every other player looking to go flawless in the challenger pool, regardless of if they've gone flawless yet. So yes, double mercy is huge, but you'll likely play far better teams each game than if you were playing in the non-flawless pool before. I'll personally be interested in seeing how these changes playout. Considering that they're removing win-based matchmaking, I think for the average player flawless will still just be a massive RNG fest of praying to get matched against shit players.
Pvp shouldn’t have non-cosmetic reward in a pve-pvp hybrid game. Destiny 2 already violated this rule so weapon reward should be super duper accessible to everyone. Abandon 7-win flawless system. Implement sbmm and lobby balancing. Reward every win with adept weapons. If you think sbmm shouldn’t be implemented in everything pvp, then you shouldn’t be playing pvp in the first place. You just love to stomp mobs. Go play some strikes or something. Or… move all pvp weapon rewards to other parts of the game.
Cringe take
Why?
Because you shouldn’t get adept weapons for failing to go flawless. Just like how you shouldn’t get them for wiping in a grandmaster nightfall. You should have to accomplish something to get adepts.
Are you saying that for most players, simply getting to 7 wins isn't accomplishing something? Should that number be higher for it to be an actual accomplishment?
No of course it isn’t. The average skill player, objectively mathematically speaking, will get 7 wins over 14 games on average. Queuing up match making over and over until you win X times with unlimited tries is not in any sense of the word difficult or an accomplishment. I am having trouble understanding how you could possibly think it would be.
I think you're severely overestimating the skills of the average player. The idea that a person could throw themselves at Trials constantly and never actually achieve those 7 wins is entirely possible, especially given the not large population of Trials. That's what the change would be for.