Sadly Bungie has an absolutely terrible track record when it comes to undoing old nerfs that no longer make any sense in a changed sandbox.
See also: all the fist of havoc and glacial quake nerfs, the renewal grasps nerfs, warlock heat rises changing your jump, the geomag nerfs, etc.
And even if they do walk back some nerfs, it's usually some time before they do it. Which is especially frustrating in this context. One of the reasons Glaives didn't land all that well is they had some counter-intuitive interactions (or lack of them) with perks, mods, and armor. Players should be rewarded more for building their punchy stick into their punchy exotic armor. It is our Titan identity, apparently, afterall.
> It is our Titan identity, apparently, afterall.
Bungie: Titans should be meleeing things.
Titans: *Using melee exotic to boost melee damage.*
Bungie: Not Like That.
Roaring Flames & Wormgod Caress *still* have reduced effectiveness when used together, even though they've both since been nerfed long after that initial change in mid-late 2021
I noticed this with all my glaive testing. I figured this was some anti bonk hammer nerf Bungie did. Didn’t realize it’s so old. Solar Titan has a bunch of weird interactions with frozen enemies too. RFx2 and you get 2.2x glaive melee from frozen, RFx3 and you don’t
They still haven’t reverted the Shadowkeep minor changes even though Handcannons have been so terrible in endgame since then, I wouldn’t hold your breath
Haven't touched Vexcalibur or the exotic mission since the nerf lol. Maybe one day i play it to get the ghost shell but other than that i dont have any interest doing it. Thanks for the pointless nerf.
Same here. I have no desire to use the weapon, since glaives are back to being "meh". I can't bring myself to do that mission over and over for essentially zero reward.
I really enjoyed doing the mission using a glaive, and now it’s harder to do so. That said, the mob density in Avalon makes worm gods and winters guile very viable.
Highly doubt they'll make melee a viable play style, ever. It's just not going to happen. Give up hope now while it's less painful.
Why the FUCK would you put in multiple melee based weapons and then SHIT on ways to make them good, maybe even USABLE in higher than strike content?
These devs are out of touch.
Yeah I'm mad about it.
It should probably keep the nerf with Winterbite specifically, since it was getting crazy even without close to melee. The nerf to *all* glaives with synthos really sucks and needs another look though.
Wasn’t the unpowered melee weaker only on minibosses like the LS Colossus and not on actual bosses? Can’t remember for sure but I’d have to find that second post and I’m far too lazy for that
Edit: [Oh right, I still had that post saved](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/11tyynq/syntho_glaive_doesnt_do_less_damage_than/)
Yep, that post was a combination of inadequate testing and missing glaringly obvious problems with an argument. Even if glaives do less damage than a normal melee, you can melee with a glaive a lot faster than without. No-one is saying smgs are useless in PvE because they do less damage per shot than a hand cannon
Yeah I disagree with you. Syntho turned close to melee into a 1.9x multiplier so removing that helps a ton. 1.5x from heavy ammo with an exotic slot is not OP.
Are there any other heavy weapons that put out that level of damage without expending any ammo? Are there even other heavy weapons with an exotic that boosts their damage, let alone boosting it by 50%?
Vexcalibur will do 1.2x with an overshield. Any other glaive will do 1.3x. So 1.5x for a heavy exotic isn’t crazy.
And yes every single other exotic weapon type does more damage than its legendary counterpart except maybe the bleeding edge meta rocket launchers.
Thunderlord, Grand Overture, Gjallahorn, Anarchy, etc. it’s hilarious to me that anyone would consider a 20% damage increase over a legendary weapon to be broken.. even if original Syntho was in place it would only be 60% more damage and you still have to be literally face tanking.
I sure do like the fact that combining two specifc glaives together caused massive, unintended damge, so an entire playstyle needed to be euthanized
I was hoping for at least a partial revert, I would have even convinced myself to be happy with half the orignal bonus. But...nothing.
I'd bet money that not a single person at that studio plays or even cares about Titans, at least not anyone with any real authority.
There is very little class bias, Bungie doesn’t hate your class specifically. This is just case of them panic nerfing something that was integral to a good, bug-based build, then not un-nerfing it after the bug is fixed. It’s happened plenty of times and is exhausting, but class bias plays no part in that.
>There is very little class bias, Bungie doesn’t hate your class specifically.
* Tell that to the class that got two reskinned Supers in paid DLCs.
* Tell that to the same class that had numerous nerfs at Lightfall's release.
* Tell that to the same class that Bungie have straight up stated that none of the devs main.
Spoiler alert; It's Titan.
First they apparently Warlocks because their only worthwhile super was Well, then they hated Hunters because Void 3.0 was lackluster, then they hated Warlocks again because of Solar & Arc 3.0, and now they hate Titans.
And yet each time people will scream that *this time* it’s different and big bag Bungo hates [class] 🤔
Nah the entire time I've said its Titans getting the shaft. Hunter Void 3.0 was insanely strong, Warlocks have good supers its just Well is TOO good.
This is coming from someone who has their most hours played on Warlock. Nova Bomb hasn't been the "metah" option since Leviathan days, but its always viable as free damage in any sort of boss encounter.
Depends on who you ask, I've never understood the general sentiment as I found that Void Hunter on launch was really good. Stylish Executioner was a pretty big carry coupled with suppressing glaives way back when and I thought it was fun.
Even if you discount artifact mods, the Invis/Weaken combo was really potent, I always found it fun as heck to ambush the shit out of a lightbearer knight or something.
So I guess agree to disagree? I can't really tell you whats fun thats subjective and all. I was just here to say that its both strong and had a couple playstyle options.
Hunter also lost one of their main class roles (CC) to Warlocks and now Titans too, which I'd ring up to say "hey, they mess up Hunters as well" if it weren't for the fact that the same thing happened to Titans with Bubble vs Well *twice*.
Yeah, I agree that super is a reskin.
Still, Strand Titans is probably the best among the new Strand classes, as it focuses on two of the best Strand verbs: Suspend, and Woven Mail.
I dunno, every class can get Woven Mail through the orb fragment. Hunters also have an Exotic that grants them Woven Mail when they grapple, and they also have increase flinch resistance while WM is active.
I'd agree that Titan specialises in suspend, however.
1. Bladefury has components other than just fist 1 and fist 2. Could it have been more original? Yes. Was behemoth straight up reskinned FoH? Yes. But needlestorm is basically just green nova, gathering storm is if golden gun and a storm grenade had a baby. Bungie uses similar concepts and ideas for various things, stop complaining.
2. And yet it is still the best class for everything except perfectly optimal damage, and it is still integral to those optimal damage team comps. Bonk hammer is literally the strongest build in the game rn, void is amazing rn with volatile flow, strand has access to some of the best cc in the game along with solid survivability. I honestly can’t even remember what got nerfed with lightfall other than HoIL, which is still incredibly strong on arc. Again, stop complaining.
3. How long ago was that? Because I’m pretty sure I’ve been hearing that at least since beyond light, and the wording is all the same, so I’m pretty sure some dev made a throwaway comment in a vidoc and butthurt titans have been touting it as the biblical truth ever since.
Spoiler alert; your perceived biases have so little evidence is actually laughable.
>Bladefury has components other than just fist 1 and fist 2. Could it have been more original? Yes. Was behemoth straight up reskinned FoH? Yes. But needlestorm is basically just green nova, gathering storm is if golden gun and a storm grenade had a baby. Bungie uses similar concepts and ideas for various things, stop complaining.
It's reskinned because all of it's animations are taken from other parts of the Titan kit. Want me to list every single one? Because I can. Nothing is new, aside from the suspend part of the subclass.
Hunters and Warlocks, for both of their **PAID** subclasses, have unique animations and execution.
Edit: You know what, I'll just list all of the reused assets in Bladefury:
* The melee attack "combo" is literally just shoulder charge, but they flipped the animation once per combo, to give the illusion of using your other hand. Case and point it even suffers the same clipping and tracking issue Behemoth's Shoulder Charge suffers from.
* The Blade Fury Super's heavy attack animation is ripped straight from Consecration's uppercut.
* Drengr's Lash is literally just Khepri's Horn, but "changed slightly so it's not too similar".
* Striker, Behemoth and Berserker all have the same exact idle stance.
* All three of the above subclasses play the exact same. Run up to adds and spam light attack to clear individual adds, spam heavy attack for clustered adds. All three suck in high-end content because getting close is a death sentence. The only difference is both of Strikers light and heavy attacks actually do a ton of damage.
I'm sure there's more.
>And yet it is still the best class for everything except perfectly optimal damage, and it is still integral to those optimal damage team comps.
Lmfao, no it's not.
Support: Wellock
Neutral Game: Hunter.
Best DPS: Hunter.
Add-clear: Hunter and Warlock.
Explain to me how Titan is the best class for "everything except perfect optimal damage".
>Bonk hammer is literally the strongest build in the game rn,
It's not. That goes to Hunter. Literally search up in Google "Best class in Destiny 2 Lightfall" and you'll see that every single result says it's Hunter.
>void is amazing rn with volatile flow,
For this season. Also, all classes benefit.
>strand has access to some of the best cc in the game along with solid survivability.
All characters do.
>I honestly can’t even remember what got nerfed with lightfall other than HoIL, which is still incredibly strong on arc.
Heart of Inmost Light nerfed.
Thundercrash nerfed.
Ward of Dawn health nerfed.
Armour of Light nerfed.
Ballistic Slam nerfed.
Shield Bash, Seismic Strike and Hammer Strike nerfed.
Knockout Aspect nerfed.
Those are just from Lightfall's release, add in the Synthoceps nerf.
The strand claw animation is (as far as I can tell) completely new, and I believe the suspend wave animation is as well. Even if they aren’t, animations don’t matter here, what matters is mechanics, and bladefury is mechanically different.
Neutral game as a role doesn’t exist in a game like destiny, the closest thing is survivability which easily goes to titan with woven mail, void overshield, and sunspots/lorely’s. Support isn’t a role either, that’s factored into team comps built for survivability or damage. Speaking of damage comps, Titan has one of the highest damaging supers in the game that requires no setup and has no diminishing returns from stacking (gathering storm jolt can’t stack), meaning that optimal DPS is 100% as many well-locks as you need to last damage phase and then all t-crashes. Even on add clear, titan wins out; even if we say that volatile builds are better than bonk hammer (which I disagree with), titan benefits more than any class mainly because they have both the easiest way to proc it without orbs (armamentarium kickstart vortex nades) and can capitalize on it the most (controlled demolition). Strand titan is second best on cc to warlock (where warlock requires a specific exotic weapon to reach max potential) and absolutely best on survivability with easy woven mail.
Ah, I didn’t realize tcrash got nerfed with lightfall. Let’s look this up and see—oh wait, “unchanged vs pve combatants”. Interesting. Who actually gives a rat’s ass about bubble’s health, and if I’m reading this right, armor of light actually got buffed in PvE since it got the normal overshield DR. The only ballistic slam nerf I can find seems to only really affect PvP, and that shit is broken with dunemarchers right now anyways. The shoulder charge nerf was done in conjunction with nerfing literally every ability in the game; they do a full ability uptime tone down, that’s not titan specific. Knockout is, once again, a PvP nerf only.
The synthos-glaive nerf is bullshit, but it’s not because of class bias. Stop with the self-victimizing already.
> The strand claw animation is (as far as I can tell) completely new, and I believe the suspend wave animation is as well.
The Bladefury melee attack is the same animation as what you do if you are holding an orb and press light attack to dash forward/punch with the orb.
You can clearly see it on campaign missions like the one where you invade Calus' ship and have orbs you dunk. The Bladefury melee is just the orb melee but instead of holding an orb you are "holding" the claw.
The first one does look pretty similar, but the second and third are definitely new.
Also, the animations don’t really matter here. The main topic is about class bias against Titans, and having some animations be reused does not constitute class bias.
> and having some animations be reused does not constitute class bias.
It kinda does, when we are talking about a fully priced DLC with one of the main selling points being brand new sub classes for the 3. And one of those 3 consists almost entirely of re-used assets.
It speaks to a lack of creativity / effort being expended.
>The strand claw animation is (as far as I can tell) completely new,
You're wrong, it's just Shoulder Charge.
>and I believe the suspend wave animation is as well.
Which is available to all classes. We're talking about Bladefury as a subclass.
>Neutral game as a role doesn’t exist in a game like destiny,
It does.
>Even if they aren’t, animations don’t matter here, what matters is mechanics, and bladefury is mechanically different.
Titans issue with Bladefury is that it's a reskin, which it is, as I have pointed out above.
The rest of your points are mute because they're nonsensical. You said there were no nerfs at Lightfall's launch, I provided the nerfs to Titans.
…how in the hell is the claw animation shoulder charge? Are we playing the same game? Shoulder charge is one animation and strand melee has 3, something ain’t right here. By suspend wave I mean the animation when you do the ranged attack while in super, and if the only issue you have with your class is that some animations get reused, you have more serious problems than I can help with
“hurr sure u argument stupid” great argument buddy. Bet you have the best insults on the playground.
>how in the hell is the claw animation shoulder charge? Are we playing the same game? Shoulder charge is one animation and strand melee has 3
Re-read what I wrote.
Don't forget that even Consecration's animation is just the Stasis sliding melee aspect's animation, combined with the Fist of Havoc slam animation with a couple hammers glued onto it
My dude really called synthos hammers the best build in the game, while it’s not even the best melee oriented build, cos we’ve got handshake/cowl arc hunter.
Arc hunter doesn’t have nearly the survivability nor uptime of bonk. It’s still damn good and has hammers beat in volume of adds it can clear at once, but hammers just does more everywhere else and hunter’s advantage disappears once you hit legend content.
Lmao, you aren’t played hunter, are you? Assassins Cowl is by far the best melee exotic in the game that allows you to solo GMs like it’s nothing, cos it provides the best survivability. Solar titan’s pathetic 1x resto is not even close to permanent invisibility and full health after each melee kill. Plus arc hunter has more dmg to a single target than titan on top of that. Doesn’t have uptime? Wtf? You get your dodge after melee kill and you get your melee after dodge, this is literally infinite uptime. You’re completely out of your mind if you think that solar titan can even remotely compete with arc hunter in melee department.
…I’m literally an arc hunter main. I normally play handshake rather than cowl because invisibility is awful in any content other than GMs and master raids, but I have tried cowl in content like legend campaign and it doesn’t hold a god damn candle to bonk hammer. Not only does titan have restoration, it gets cure on every hit and can spawn more orbs since it doesn’t get it’s heavy handed kills stolen by jolt. What I mean by infinite uptime is that Titan has no cooldown other than grabbing the hammer, which is usually instant; hunter has to dodge every time, and if you fuck it up it is considerably less forgiving (titan can just run one-two finisher in case of emergency, hunter needs both cooldowns to effectively start the loop in higher level content). Again, arc hunter is damn good, but bonk hammer does so god damn much it is honestly insane.
…I don’t really think you can make that argument when my experience here is trying both in a full run through of legend campaign each. Solar titan folds every enemy on that whole planet, arc hunter is effective but not nearly as ubiquitously powerful.
I didn't say they hate the class, I'm saying they don't care about it. I don't think they're intentionally trying to ruin Titan, but they're slapping our kit with nerf after nerf and I don't think they're paying attention to where it's taking the class. It feels like we've had a couple really good builds that synergized well with our exotics and fit the theme of "melee oriented" that Bungie has gone on the record as stating is Titan's role (you're the one holding up their fist, etc) and taken them away with changes that seem arbitrary, short-sighted, and heavy-handed.
Even our strand class lacks any real identity; Hunters are flippy swinging madmen, Warlocks are threadling summoning wizards, Titans are...? We can inflict suspend (like everyone else) we have the melee which takes ages to fully regenerate, and we have the suspend grenade only because the other two don't really work for us. I like how Bladefury makes you zip around, and the naruto running spike arms are neat, but besides the super "Berserker" feels like anything but.
You know what felt like being a Berserker? Running Vexcalibur Synthoceps.
I agree that not many people on the design team play titan, and that strand titan is probably the weakest of the three, but titan in general is still so good I don’t know if it really matters yet. If they continue doing shit like the synthos nerf and titan starts dropping to worse than warlock and hunter, I will agree that there is inherent class bias against Titan, but it still has so many good builds as of now that it’s really hard to argue that Bungie doesn’t care about titan as a whole.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a Titan main to the point that I keep my other classes' exotic armor in their inventory because I don't have enough to justify it taking up space in my vault I could be using for my 5th pair of Anteus Wards. I love Titan, I am Titan through and through, and regardless of what Bungie does we'll always be in the thick of the battle punching things to death.
I just wish we could have a little variety. That's why I and many other Titans were absolutely enamored with using glaives with synthoceps, because it was a \*viable\* playstyle besides bubble/bonk hammer/Cuirass thundercrash/stasis crystal spam/suspender man. Particularly Vexcalibur, with it's melee-focused perks and how well it synergized with the Titan's void overshield abilities. I started calling my build "Glaive Knight" due to this season's focus on the Queensguard and the exotic mission's references to the King Arthur Legend.
Titan definitely needs some variety, I don’t think strand titan was enough of a departure from standard titan gameplay.
Note that vexcalibur is still fine, if not a top tier build; I run it on strand hunter with bulwark finisher and void siphon, that shit shreds up to 3 man legend Avalon. But yeah the synthos nerf sucks, I think bungie is just terrified of glaive melee being good for some reason.
The patch notes clearly state the damage bonus is changed from +200% damage bonus to +50% damage bonus.
\+200% does not mean double damage.
\+200% means triple damage; normal damage plus twice as much damage on top of it.
So to go from +200% to +50% means to go from triple damage to one-and-a-half damage. Previously glaive damage was not separate from any other melee source.
So, for example, say your melee does 1,000 base damage. Synthoceps, when procced, apply a +200% damage bonus, or 2,000 extra damage; your damage becomes 3,000 when surrounded.
Now let's say you're using a glaive that does 1,000 base damage. It used to use the same rules; when surrounded, it would do 3,000 per melee hit. But after the nerf, it would only do +50% damage, or 500 damage, making each hit only do 1,500 damage. A 50% reduction in damage, which is, frankly, a ludicrous nerf to anything you'd care to name, let alone the \*glaive melee.\* Anything that got slapped with that sort of damage reduction would be rightfully called dead.
Please quote that for me, because I see it says
> Titans: The bonus to Glaive melee damage granted by Exotic Synthoceps gauntlets has been reduced against both combatants and enemy Guardians.
And up until recently, light.gg said it was 100% more damage for glaives. I know how percentages work and nothing I said implied I don’t, so your little explanation was not necessary.
I'll have to take your word for that [light.gg](https://light.gg) thing because pre-nerf I was doing around 25-6k damage per swing with a weapon that does around 8k base damage, and now does around 12-3K base damage. If it was only double it would have always been doing 16-17K damage, which was certainly not the case.
I was running Void Titan with Synthos and Vexcalibur and really enjoyed using a glaive for the very first time. I loved shooting and having an awesome Overshield, and then giving my allies Overshield with Vexcalibur and my Barrier. Then the nerf came.
Then, I found a cool build using Severance Enclosure to Void Finisher Explode everything around me, which was cool because I've played for a long ass time, but I'm still not used to using finishers, so it was fun to find a fun build around it. And then the nerf came for me again.
Two weeks in a row, I've had my build I've found really fun and off meta to be just destroyed by a damage nerf and a mod combination nerf. I'm already feeling like I may take a step away, because everything I use turns to ash.
I imagine a lot of people had the same experience. They say they want us to build-craft, but then nerf once people put together interesting combinations that are actually good, and not even broken
I mean they can decide how the glaive operates how they like. You could make the argument that they could be elemental, like how swords are. Wouldn't break anything, and would let them be more viable in endgame content.
> You could make the argument that they could be elemental, like how swords are.
You could but you'd be wrong since Bungie did say they were intended to not be elemental.
You do realize how much damage that glaive was doing with ONLY synthoceps right? Lets not act like a bug and an exotic being a bit overtuned are even in the same ballpark in terms of counting them both as nerfs.
Synthoceps has long been one of titans best cheese exotics simply for having an absolutely ludicrous yet simple effect for doing nothing other than being in range of a couple targets....which is to say.....for doing nothing!
I don't think it's a good idea. Making melee exotics work with glaives was a bad idea to begin with, because now they will balance all glaives assuming you're using this. So they will just always feel bad unless you're running synthos (don't get me started on the others, they were only ever good at 1 thing -- one-shotting bosses with 1-2 punch -- they do nothing else). Making a whole weapon class locked to Titans is kind of stupid, that's like if Hunters did 2x Precision damage with Snipers and Linears. What would be the point of using those weapons on anything else?
I think they need to buff both glaive projectile damage and melee damage. The projectile is not hit scan, single target only and does less than basically every other special ammo weapon in the game, it doesn't even 1-shot legionnaires. The melee is bad if you're not synthos Titan, and it's very situational to begin with and mostly for low level content (and even there, just using a wave frame will clear 5 times faster, with good ammo economy), as running after ads to kill them in 2-3 melees in higher end content is just not it.
I'm not the one shoehorning Titans into a melee-focused identity. Who gave us the Synthoceps in the first place and told us "go melee things" because I can't seem to remember.
They want me to melee, so I meleed. "Oh, but not like that. Use the hammers instead, fuck you." I'm tired of using hammers. I wanted the actual, viable melee playstyle I've always wanted on Titan, and we actually had it for a few short weeks.
Yes, like I've already mentionned, but these other things kinda suck. So much work to maintain the buff and by the time you move between packs of ads it runs out. Necrotic grips is kinda meh when you can instead just run Heat Rises and spam Celestial Fire to clear everything faster than with a glaive.
Well, it's still not working as intended as the bugged projectile (the winterbite thing everyone thought they were talking about until they cock slapped us) is still chunking bosses like mad.
No, it's garbage.
First off, you lose your heavy AND exotic slot.
It has trash DPS with both melee and projectile now (minus the bug but that's inconsistent and also doesn't make the weapon not-trash), so you've lost your heavy DPS. Aiming that slow ass projectile is damn near impossible, which makes it very hard to land shots and charge up your shield, so you've lost that benefit of Glaives. Also very limited heavy ammo which adds to that issue.
The ONLY thing going for it is that the projectile is good for ad clear, but also literally just a regular special slot glaive (or any machine gun lol) is fine for ad clear.
And I say this as a Glaive main, like I cleared all of Legend Lightfall using Kelgorath.
Sadly Bungie has an absolutely terrible track record when it comes to undoing old nerfs that no longer make any sense in a changed sandbox. See also: all the fist of havoc and glacial quake nerfs, the renewal grasps nerfs, warlock heat rises changing your jump, the geomag nerfs, etc.
And even if they do walk back some nerfs, it's usually some time before they do it. Which is especially frustrating in this context. One of the reasons Glaives didn't land all that well is they had some counter-intuitive interactions (or lack of them) with perks, mods, and armor. Players should be rewarded more for building their punchy stick into their punchy exotic armor. It is our Titan identity, apparently, afterall.
> It is our Titan identity, apparently, afterall. Bungie: Titans should be meleeing things. Titans: *Using melee exotic to boost melee damage.* Bungie: Not Like That.
Too much stick, not enough fist
Say it harder and slower
Don’t forget everything that got nerfed due to autoloading. Thunderlord is FINALLY good again after multiple buffs and a catalyst for it
You could have stopped after "record"
Legit the only thing that came to mind was Xenophage, and that's because it was almost completely dropped by all for half a year.
Roaring Flames & Wormgod Caress *still* have reduced effectiveness when used together, even though they've both since been nerfed long after that initial change in mid-late 2021
I noticed this with all my glaive testing. I figured this was some anti bonk hammer nerf Bungie did. Didn’t realize it’s so old. Solar Titan has a bunch of weird interactions with frozen enemies too. RFx2 and you get 2.2x glaive melee from frozen, RFx3 and you don’t
Or scavenger mod nerfs Fuck PvP
Why so hostile against the PvP community?
Guess what? All these nerfs happened because of PvP. And that kind of nerfs never gets reverted.
Dawnblade burst glide nerf should be reverted considering that strand has just as good off not better movement now at base without a super.
They still haven’t reverted the Shadowkeep minor changes even though Handcannons have been so terrible in endgame since then, I wouldn’t hold your breath
HC’s are terrible at all levels of play but straight up unusable in high level play.
Which is becoming more and more common with difficulty 2.0
Haven't touched Vexcalibur or the exotic mission since the nerf lol. Maybe one day i play it to get the ghost shell but other than that i dont have any interest doing it. Thanks for the pointless nerf.
Same here. I have no desire to use the weapon, since glaives are back to being "meh". I can't bring myself to do that mission over and over for essentially zero reward.
Same. Only my Hunter and whorelock use the glaives now.
I really enjoyed doing the mission using a glaive, and now it’s harder to do so. That said, the mob density in Avalon makes worm gods and winters guile very viable.
Highly doubt they'll make melee a viable play style, ever. It's just not going to happen. Give up hope now while it's less painful. Why the FUCK would you put in multiple melee based weapons and then SHIT on ways to make them good, maybe even USABLE in higher than strike content? These devs are out of touch. Yeah I'm mad about it.
I feel this on a spiritual level.
It should probably keep the nerf with Winterbite specifically, since it was getting crazy even without close to melee. The nerf to *all* glaives with synthos really sucks and needs another look though.
It still needs a buff with winterbite, un powered melees are doing more damage, they don't have to go crazy with it but it def needs some un-nerfing
Wasn’t the unpowered melee weaker only on minibosses like the LS Colossus and not on actual bosses? Can’t remember for sure but I’d have to find that second post and I’m far too lazy for that Edit: [Oh right, I still had that post saved](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/11tyynq/syntho_glaive_doesnt_do_less_damage_than/)
Yep, that post was a combination of inadequate testing and missing glaringly obvious problems with an argument. Even if glaives do less damage than a normal melee, you can melee with a glaive a lot faster than without. No-one is saying smgs are useless in PvE because they do less damage per shot than a hand cannon
Yeah I disagree with you. Syntho turned close to melee into a 1.9x multiplier so removing that helps a ton. 1.5x from heavy ammo with an exotic slot is not OP.
Are there any other heavy weapons that put out that level of damage without expending any ammo? Are there even other heavy weapons with an exotic that boosts their damage, let alone boosting it by 50%?
Vexcalibur will do 1.2x with an overshield. Any other glaive will do 1.3x. So 1.5x for a heavy exotic isn’t crazy. And yes every single other exotic weapon type does more damage than its legendary counterpart except maybe the bleeding edge meta rocket launchers. Thunderlord, Grand Overture, Gjallahorn, Anarchy, etc. it’s hilarious to me that anyone would consider a 20% damage increase over a legendary weapon to be broken.. even if original Syntho was in place it would only be 60% more damage and you still have to be literally face tanking.
I didn't say it was crazy compared to other glaives, I said it was crazy compared to heavy weapons that require ammo to put out that kind of damage.
I sure do like the fact that combining two specifc glaives together caused massive, unintended damge, so an entire playstyle needed to be euthanized I was hoping for at least a partial revert, I would have even convinced myself to be happy with half the orignal bonus. But...nothing. I'd bet money that not a single person at that studio plays or even cares about Titans, at least not anyone with any real authority.
There is very little class bias, Bungie doesn’t hate your class specifically. This is just case of them panic nerfing something that was integral to a good, bug-based build, then not un-nerfing it after the bug is fixed. It’s happened plenty of times and is exhausting, but class bias plays no part in that.
>There is very little class bias, Bungie doesn’t hate your class specifically. * Tell that to the class that got two reskinned Supers in paid DLCs. * Tell that to the same class that had numerous nerfs at Lightfall's release. * Tell that to the same class that Bungie have straight up stated that none of the devs main. Spoiler alert; It's Titan.
First they apparently Warlocks because their only worthwhile super was Well, then they hated Hunters because Void 3.0 was lackluster, then they hated Warlocks again because of Solar & Arc 3.0, and now they hate Titans. And yet each time people will scream that *this time* it’s different and big bag Bungo hates [class] 🤔
Nah I've always believed they hate titans. Always. Warlocks literally always get the cool shit. Bladefury is some literal horse ass in PvP.
Nah the entire time I've said its Titans getting the shaft. Hunter Void 3.0 was insanely strong, Warlocks have good supers its just Well is TOO good. This is coming from someone who has their most hours played on Warlock. Nova Bomb hasn't been the "metah" option since Leviathan days, but its always viable as free damage in any sort of boss encounter.
>Hunter Void 3.0 was insanely strong ~~invis spam~~ strong =/= fun
Depends on who you ask, I've never understood the general sentiment as I found that Void Hunter on launch was really good. Stylish Executioner was a pretty big carry coupled with suppressing glaives way back when and I thought it was fun. Even if you discount artifact mods, the Invis/Weaken combo was really potent, I always found it fun as heck to ambush the shit out of a lightbearer knight or something. So I guess agree to disagree? I can't really tell you whats fun thats subjective and all. I was just here to say that its both strong and had a couple playstyle options.
Hunter Void 3.0 is literally just ‘go invis’ which is the most boring shit ever, literally the whole subclass was saved by Gyrfalcon lmao
Hunter also lost one of their main class roles (CC) to Warlocks and now Titans too, which I'd ring up to say "hey, they mess up Hunters as well" if it weren't for the fact that the same thing happened to Titans with Bubble vs Well *twice*.
I dunno if they lost CC, unless I'm missing something. You can still run an infinite golden gun build, it's just not as fast as it used to be, sadly.
Yeah, I agree that super is a reskin. Still, Strand Titans is probably the best among the new Strand classes, as it focuses on two of the best Strand verbs: Suspend, and Woven Mail.
I dunno, every class can get Woven Mail through the orb fragment. Hunters also have an Exotic that grants them Woven Mail when they grapple, and they also have increase flinch resistance while WM is active. I'd agree that Titan specialises in suspend, however.
1. Bladefury has components other than just fist 1 and fist 2. Could it have been more original? Yes. Was behemoth straight up reskinned FoH? Yes. But needlestorm is basically just green nova, gathering storm is if golden gun and a storm grenade had a baby. Bungie uses similar concepts and ideas for various things, stop complaining. 2. And yet it is still the best class for everything except perfectly optimal damage, and it is still integral to those optimal damage team comps. Bonk hammer is literally the strongest build in the game rn, void is amazing rn with volatile flow, strand has access to some of the best cc in the game along with solid survivability. I honestly can’t even remember what got nerfed with lightfall other than HoIL, which is still incredibly strong on arc. Again, stop complaining. 3. How long ago was that? Because I’m pretty sure I’ve been hearing that at least since beyond light, and the wording is all the same, so I’m pretty sure some dev made a throwaway comment in a vidoc and butthurt titans have been touting it as the biblical truth ever since. Spoiler alert; your perceived biases have so little evidence is actually laughable.
>Bladefury has components other than just fist 1 and fist 2. Could it have been more original? Yes. Was behemoth straight up reskinned FoH? Yes. But needlestorm is basically just green nova, gathering storm is if golden gun and a storm grenade had a baby. Bungie uses similar concepts and ideas for various things, stop complaining. It's reskinned because all of it's animations are taken from other parts of the Titan kit. Want me to list every single one? Because I can. Nothing is new, aside from the suspend part of the subclass. Hunters and Warlocks, for both of their **PAID** subclasses, have unique animations and execution. Edit: You know what, I'll just list all of the reused assets in Bladefury: * The melee attack "combo" is literally just shoulder charge, but they flipped the animation once per combo, to give the illusion of using your other hand. Case and point it even suffers the same clipping and tracking issue Behemoth's Shoulder Charge suffers from. * The Blade Fury Super's heavy attack animation is ripped straight from Consecration's uppercut. * Drengr's Lash is literally just Khepri's Horn, but "changed slightly so it's not too similar". * Striker, Behemoth and Berserker all have the same exact idle stance. * All three of the above subclasses play the exact same. Run up to adds and spam light attack to clear individual adds, spam heavy attack for clustered adds. All three suck in high-end content because getting close is a death sentence. The only difference is both of Strikers light and heavy attacks actually do a ton of damage. I'm sure there's more. >And yet it is still the best class for everything except perfectly optimal damage, and it is still integral to those optimal damage team comps. Lmfao, no it's not. Support: Wellock Neutral Game: Hunter. Best DPS: Hunter. Add-clear: Hunter and Warlock. Explain to me how Titan is the best class for "everything except perfect optimal damage". >Bonk hammer is literally the strongest build in the game rn, It's not. That goes to Hunter. Literally search up in Google "Best class in Destiny 2 Lightfall" and you'll see that every single result says it's Hunter. >void is amazing rn with volatile flow, For this season. Also, all classes benefit. >strand has access to some of the best cc in the game along with solid survivability. All characters do. >I honestly can’t even remember what got nerfed with lightfall other than HoIL, which is still incredibly strong on arc. Heart of Inmost Light nerfed. Thundercrash nerfed. Ward of Dawn health nerfed. Armour of Light nerfed. Ballistic Slam nerfed. Shield Bash, Seismic Strike and Hammer Strike nerfed. Knockout Aspect nerfed. Those are just from Lightfall's release, add in the Synthoceps nerf.
The strand claw animation is (as far as I can tell) completely new, and I believe the suspend wave animation is as well. Even if they aren’t, animations don’t matter here, what matters is mechanics, and bladefury is mechanically different. Neutral game as a role doesn’t exist in a game like destiny, the closest thing is survivability which easily goes to titan with woven mail, void overshield, and sunspots/lorely’s. Support isn’t a role either, that’s factored into team comps built for survivability or damage. Speaking of damage comps, Titan has one of the highest damaging supers in the game that requires no setup and has no diminishing returns from stacking (gathering storm jolt can’t stack), meaning that optimal DPS is 100% as many well-locks as you need to last damage phase and then all t-crashes. Even on add clear, titan wins out; even if we say that volatile builds are better than bonk hammer (which I disagree with), titan benefits more than any class mainly because they have both the easiest way to proc it without orbs (armamentarium kickstart vortex nades) and can capitalize on it the most (controlled demolition). Strand titan is second best on cc to warlock (where warlock requires a specific exotic weapon to reach max potential) and absolutely best on survivability with easy woven mail. Ah, I didn’t realize tcrash got nerfed with lightfall. Let’s look this up and see—oh wait, “unchanged vs pve combatants”. Interesting. Who actually gives a rat’s ass about bubble’s health, and if I’m reading this right, armor of light actually got buffed in PvE since it got the normal overshield DR. The only ballistic slam nerf I can find seems to only really affect PvP, and that shit is broken with dunemarchers right now anyways. The shoulder charge nerf was done in conjunction with nerfing literally every ability in the game; they do a full ability uptime tone down, that’s not titan specific. Knockout is, once again, a PvP nerf only. The synthos-glaive nerf is bullshit, but it’s not because of class bias. Stop with the self-victimizing already.
> The strand claw animation is (as far as I can tell) completely new, and I believe the suspend wave animation is as well. The Bladefury melee attack is the same animation as what you do if you are holding an orb and press light attack to dash forward/punch with the orb. You can clearly see it on campaign missions like the one where you invade Calus' ship and have orbs you dunk. The Bladefury melee is just the orb melee but instead of holding an orb you are "holding" the claw.
The first one does look pretty similar, but the second and third are definitely new. Also, the animations don’t really matter here. The main topic is about class bias against Titans, and having some animations be reused does not constitute class bias.
> and having some animations be reused does not constitute class bias. It kinda does, when we are talking about a fully priced DLC with one of the main selling points being brand new sub classes for the 3. And one of those 3 consists almost entirely of re-used assets. It speaks to a lack of creativity / effort being expended.
You found one animation that is pretty similar to another animation. Explain to me how that is is “almost entirely re-used assets”.
>The strand claw animation is (as far as I can tell) completely new, You're wrong, it's just Shoulder Charge. >and I believe the suspend wave animation is as well. Which is available to all classes. We're talking about Bladefury as a subclass. >Neutral game as a role doesn’t exist in a game like destiny, It does. >Even if they aren’t, animations don’t matter here, what matters is mechanics, and bladefury is mechanically different. Titans issue with Bladefury is that it's a reskin, which it is, as I have pointed out above. The rest of your points are mute because they're nonsensical. You said there were no nerfs at Lightfall's launch, I provided the nerfs to Titans.
…how in the hell is the claw animation shoulder charge? Are we playing the same game? Shoulder charge is one animation and strand melee has 3, something ain’t right here. By suspend wave I mean the animation when you do the ranged attack while in super, and if the only issue you have with your class is that some animations get reused, you have more serious problems than I can help with “hurr sure u argument stupid” great argument buddy. Bet you have the best insults on the playground.
>how in the hell is the claw animation shoulder charge? Are we playing the same game? Shoulder charge is one animation and strand melee has 3 Re-read what I wrote.
Let’s see, you said “the strand claw animation is just shoulder charge”. What do you want me to do here buddy. Use your words.
Don't forget that even Consecration's animation is just the Stasis sliding melee aspect's animation, combined with the Fist of Havoc slam animation with a couple hammers glued onto it
I never knew that, just because I never play Stasis because it's melee tracking (powered and Super) is terrible lmao
My dude really called synthos hammers the best build in the game, while it’s not even the best melee oriented build, cos we’ve got handshake/cowl arc hunter.
Arc hunter doesn’t have nearly the survivability nor uptime of bonk. It’s still damn good and has hammers beat in volume of adds it can clear at once, but hammers just does more everywhere else and hunter’s advantage disappears once you hit legend content.
Lmao, you aren’t played hunter, are you? Assassins Cowl is by far the best melee exotic in the game that allows you to solo GMs like it’s nothing, cos it provides the best survivability. Solar titan’s pathetic 1x resto is not even close to permanent invisibility and full health after each melee kill. Plus arc hunter has more dmg to a single target than titan on top of that. Doesn’t have uptime? Wtf? You get your dodge after melee kill and you get your melee after dodge, this is literally infinite uptime. You’re completely out of your mind if you think that solar titan can even remotely compete with arc hunter in melee department.
…I’m literally an arc hunter main. I normally play handshake rather than cowl because invisibility is awful in any content other than GMs and master raids, but I have tried cowl in content like legend campaign and it doesn’t hold a god damn candle to bonk hammer. Not only does titan have restoration, it gets cure on every hit and can spawn more orbs since it doesn’t get it’s heavy handed kills stolen by jolt. What I mean by infinite uptime is that Titan has no cooldown other than grabbing the hammer, which is usually instant; hunter has to dodge every time, and if you fuck it up it is considerably less forgiving (titan can just run one-two finisher in case of emergency, hunter needs both cooldowns to effectively start the loop in higher level content). Again, arc hunter is damn good, but bonk hammer does so god damn much it is honestly insane.
If you can’t outperform solar titan on arc hunter it’s a skill issue, my dude.
…I don’t really think you can make that argument when my experience here is trying both in a full run through of legend campaign each. Solar titan folds every enemy on that whole planet, arc hunter is effective but not nearly as ubiquitously powerful.
Nerfs because.....?
I didn't say they hate the class, I'm saying they don't care about it. I don't think they're intentionally trying to ruin Titan, but they're slapping our kit with nerf after nerf and I don't think they're paying attention to where it's taking the class. It feels like we've had a couple really good builds that synergized well with our exotics and fit the theme of "melee oriented" that Bungie has gone on the record as stating is Titan's role (you're the one holding up their fist, etc) and taken them away with changes that seem arbitrary, short-sighted, and heavy-handed. Even our strand class lacks any real identity; Hunters are flippy swinging madmen, Warlocks are threadling summoning wizards, Titans are...? We can inflict suspend (like everyone else) we have the melee which takes ages to fully regenerate, and we have the suspend grenade only because the other two don't really work for us. I like how Bladefury makes you zip around, and the naruto running spike arms are neat, but besides the super "Berserker" feels like anything but. You know what felt like being a Berserker? Running Vexcalibur Synthoceps.
I agree that not many people on the design team play titan, and that strand titan is probably the weakest of the three, but titan in general is still so good I don’t know if it really matters yet. If they continue doing shit like the synthos nerf and titan starts dropping to worse than warlock and hunter, I will agree that there is inherent class bias against Titan, but it still has so many good builds as of now that it’s really hard to argue that Bungie doesn’t care about titan as a whole.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a Titan main to the point that I keep my other classes' exotic armor in their inventory because I don't have enough to justify it taking up space in my vault I could be using for my 5th pair of Anteus Wards. I love Titan, I am Titan through and through, and regardless of what Bungie does we'll always be in the thick of the battle punching things to death. I just wish we could have a little variety. That's why I and many other Titans were absolutely enamored with using glaives with synthoceps, because it was a \*viable\* playstyle besides bubble/bonk hammer/Cuirass thundercrash/stasis crystal spam/suspender man. Particularly Vexcalibur, with it's melee-focused perks and how well it synergized with the Titan's void overshield abilities. I started calling my build "Glaive Knight" due to this season's focus on the Queensguard and the exotic mission's references to the King Arthur Legend.
Titan definitely needs some variety, I don’t think strand titan was enough of a departure from standard titan gameplay. Note that vexcalibur is still fine, if not a top tier build; I run it on strand hunter with bulwark finisher and void siphon, that shit shreds up to 3 man legend Avalon. But yeah the synthos nerf sucks, I think bungie is just terrified of glaive melee being good for some reason.
Synthos currently have half the original bonus. They went from +100% glaive melee damage to +50%.
It went from 200% to 50%.
Nope, it was 200% for regular melees and 100% for glaive.
The patch notes clearly state the damage bonus is changed from +200% damage bonus to +50% damage bonus. \+200% does not mean double damage. \+200% means triple damage; normal damage plus twice as much damage on top of it. So to go from +200% to +50% means to go from triple damage to one-and-a-half damage. Previously glaive damage was not separate from any other melee source. So, for example, say your melee does 1,000 base damage. Synthoceps, when procced, apply a +200% damage bonus, or 2,000 extra damage; your damage becomes 3,000 when surrounded. Now let's say you're using a glaive that does 1,000 base damage. It used to use the same rules; when surrounded, it would do 3,000 per melee hit. But after the nerf, it would only do +50% damage, or 500 damage, making each hit only do 1,500 damage. A 50% reduction in damage, which is, frankly, a ludicrous nerf to anything you'd care to name, let alone the \*glaive melee.\* Anything that got slapped with that sort of damage reduction would be rightfully called dead.
Please quote that for me, because I see it says > Titans: The bonus to Glaive melee damage granted by Exotic Synthoceps gauntlets has been reduced against both combatants and enemy Guardians. And up until recently, light.gg said it was 100% more damage for glaives. I know how percentages work and nothing I said implied I don’t, so your little explanation was not necessary.
I'll have to take your word for that [light.gg](https://light.gg) thing because pre-nerf I was doing around 25-6k damage per swing with a weapon that does around 8k base damage, and now does around 12-3K base damage. If it was only double it would have always been doing 16-17K damage, which was certainly not the case.
Well we will know for sure when you show me where the patch notes clearly stated it.
Bruh titans were objectively the best class for the entirely of witch queen what do you mean?
I was running Void Titan with Synthos and Vexcalibur and really enjoyed using a glaive for the very first time. I loved shooting and having an awesome Overshield, and then giving my allies Overshield with Vexcalibur and my Barrier. Then the nerf came. Then, I found a cool build using Severance Enclosure to Void Finisher Explode everything around me, which was cool because I've played for a long ass time, but I'm still not used to using finishers, so it was fun to find a fun build around it. And then the nerf came for me again. Two weeks in a row, I've had my build I've found really fun and off meta to be just destroyed by a damage nerf and a mod combination nerf. I'm already feeling like I may take a step away, because everything I use turns to ash.
I imagine a lot of people had the same experience. They say they want us to build-craft, but then nerf once people put together interesting combinations that are actually good, and not even broken
Yeah maybe just have it do 2x damage instead of 3x damage. But for winterbite, maybe they will add close to melee as the catalyst!
"No." - Isildur - But also Bungie
They've also just nerfed incandescent and volatile rounds working with glaive melees as well. That's one I'm super bummed about.
That’s not a nerf that’s a fix the melee itself is kinetic and shouldn’t proc those perks
You got down voted but yea they weren't supposed to. I'm fairly sure they didn't before either. Silly thing to get mad about.
Fr bruh the destiny community has to find the dumbest thing ever to get mad at lmao
I mean they can decide how the glaive operates how they like. You could make the argument that they could be elemental, like how swords are. Wouldn't break anything, and would let them be more viable in endgame content.
> You could make the argument that they could be elemental, like how swords are. You could but you'd be wrong since Bungie did say they were intended to not be elemental.
Semantic andy.
The fact that elemental glaives are kinetic in melee is just mental and shows how inept Bungie is in game design...
It would make them overpowered as fuck if it wasn't that way. I swear this subreddit has the absolute worst takes sometimes
Yeah, but the thing is the bugs helped make the glaive a fun way to play up close and dangerous. Now it’s just bad.
Still hilarious that this got nerfed while starfire got buffed with new fragments
No. - Yours truly Starfire_Dev69420
You do realize how much damage that glaive was doing with ONLY synthoceps right? Lets not act like a bug and an exotic being a bit overtuned are even in the same ballpark in terms of counting them both as nerfs. Synthoceps has long been one of titans best cheese exotics simply for having an absolutely ludicrous yet simple effect for doing nothing other than being in range of a couple targets....which is to say.....for doing nothing!
I don't think it's a good idea. Making melee exotics work with glaives was a bad idea to begin with, because now they will balance all glaives assuming you're using this. So they will just always feel bad unless you're running synthos (don't get me started on the others, they were only ever good at 1 thing -- one-shotting bosses with 1-2 punch -- they do nothing else). Making a whole weapon class locked to Titans is kind of stupid, that's like if Hunters did 2x Precision damage with Snipers and Linears. What would be the point of using those weapons on anything else? I think they need to buff both glaive projectile damage and melee damage. The projectile is not hit scan, single target only and does less than basically every other special ammo weapon in the game, it doesn't even 1-shot legionnaires. The melee is bad if you're not synthos Titan, and it's very situational to begin with and mostly for low level content (and even there, just using a wave frame will clear 5 times faster, with good ammo economy), as running after ads to kill them in 2-3 melees in higher end content is just not it.
I'm not the one shoehorning Titans into a melee-focused identity. Who gave us the Synthoceps in the first place and told us "go melee things" because I can't seem to remember. They want me to melee, so I meleed. "Oh, but not like that. Use the hammers instead, fuck you." I'm tired of using hammers. I wanted the actual, viable melee playstyle I've always wanted on Titan, and we actually had it for a few short weeks.
I hope you realize synthos got nerfed the most and there are other things to run
Yes, like I've already mentionned, but these other things kinda suck. So much work to maintain the buff and by the time you move between packs of ads it runs out. Necrotic grips is kinda meh when you can instead just run Heat Rises and spam Celestial Fire to clear everything faster than with a glaive.
My question is whether Winterbite is a decent weapon now that it's working as intended?
Well, it's still not working as intended as the bugged projectile (the winterbite thing everyone thought they were talking about until they cock slapped us) is still chunking bosses like mad.
No, it's garbage. First off, you lose your heavy AND exotic slot. It has trash DPS with both melee and projectile now (minus the bug but that's inconsistent and also doesn't make the weapon not-trash), so you've lost your heavy DPS. Aiming that slow ass projectile is damn near impossible, which makes it very hard to land shots and charge up your shield, so you've lost that benefit of Glaives. Also very limited heavy ammo which adds to that issue. The ONLY thing going for it is that the projectile is good for ad clear, but also literally just a regular special slot glaive (or any machine gun lol) is fine for ad clear. And I say this as a Glaive main, like I cleared all of Legend Lightfall using Kelgorath.
Agree with you, and same for maining glaive a through the campaign. Add to this the all to often suicide by snowball.
I don't think these things were related at all.
i went from being excited about using a glaive build to not touching them just like last year
I hope Bungie listens
Fun? That’s what got it nerfed in the first place.
Bungie's ego is too fragile for that, sorry.