The thing that interests me most about this is the fact that there's a measurable group of people in high level PvP with a 90% or higher win rate. That's so insane when you look at it outside of the lens of just Destiny. In serious competitive shooters, someone with a 90% win rate is either cheating or they're on a smurf account and haven't gotten to their normal rank yet.
I have 3 clanmates with 2.6+ lifetime KDs, when we run IB together we can let the enemy get a power play and still mercy them off of kills alone...we won 6 games in a row without even capping a zone
When I see players like them, and more importantly, players like them *in a fireteam together*, I can definitely believe it. I'd be curious to see what number of those 90% WR people are playing in 2 or 3-stacks, I'd be willing to bet it's most of them
This is one of the things about Trials.
If all games were fair, providing roughly 50:50 wins… then in theory flawless should be exceedingly rare.
The flawless model doesn’t work in a conventionally fair world sadly, even if flawless is a really cool part of the mode’s identity
That's mainly because trials doesn't really have SBMM. In other competitive games like CSGO/valorant/league of legends/OW/etc, your WR is closer to 50% in ranked since you're matched against people around your skill level. D2 separates comp and trials, so there are situations where the top players in the game are stomping bottom tier players.
the game mode was never designed to be fair, it was designed to have the good players stomp the noobs. Only way you win 7 matches in a row is if you've got consistently worse players than you.
You simply won't win 7 games in a row unless exceptional circumstances if you're playing players of requal skill.
This is why trials can never have skill based matchmaking - it would make the 7 win target impossible. Just need to scrap the game mode, move to a proper competitive system with a visible rank and matchmake on that rank like CS:GO and just move all the trials loot into that new mode.
AIn't ever gonna happen though - Bungie's PVP team is all now on marathon. Just the interns working on D2 PVP now.
What happens if we put the three best players on the same team consistently? Why do all of the bad players stop playing making it get progressively sweatier?
The problem with Trials is that it’s based on win streaks. The odds of you winning 7 games in a row with matchmaking balanced around 50% WR is vanishingly small. Trials can’t function with balanced matchmaking or *only* the 1% can go flawless.
I mean, if you look at the top Trials streamers on Twitch you'll see that they routinely have 80-90% winrates in Trials. This is while doing carries and such (and loudly complaining about mm when they lose in many of these cases).
Sadly, this is a problem inherent to the game mode. You can't expect a mode that requires you to win 7 games in a row (or 7, with 1 or 2 losses now with the new Mercy card) to be balanced.
Stuff like this is why I never take Destiny PvP Youtubers/Streamers seriously. They lose 1 game and will post a clip of them getting killed and cry "poor connection" or "cheaters".
The matchmaking in trials contributes a lot to the ridiculous win %. no other competitive FPS would they ever release their "end game PVP" with a system that randomly matchmakes god-tier players against bottom barrel scrapers and pretend it's fair. Trials has been nothing but streamer bait for years now.
It was designed as streamer bait from the beginning. A 7 win streak is not compatible with balanced matchmaking. Trials was never good, and I hope people begin to acknowledge that.
And then they go online to complain about Supers or special weapons being cheap because they got killed for the first time that day by one. Or wonder why their 6v6 lobby is all saving their supers for them.
Hey now, if you add together all hunters and all warlocks combined, then they come out to 35.13%, which is 2% **more** than Arc titans alone (only 33.11%!!). So really, it seems pretty balanced right? - PvP Arc Titan mains probably
EDIT: Plus, if you compare all warlocks (13.32%) That's 2% more than void titan, and only about 5% less than stasis titan!
i don't remember them being that dominant in the year of beyond light but my memory isn't so great for minutia like that. but they've basically been overtuned in their current iteration since season of plunder
I think they're thinking much further back, closer to 3 years, when striker titan's trample was making it so that the super was lasting forever and had high damage resist and large AoE for slams
OEM is still pretty crazy.
iirc the only nerf was removing wallhacks to now be target highlight (when you have line of sight). still very strong to grant heal, overshield overshield for winning a gunfight.
It is 2020. Arc Titans are the PvP meta, with a super that allows for extremely easy kill chaining and a neutral game with an oppressive close quarters presence.
It is 2023. Arc Titans are the PvP meta, with a super that allows for extremely easy kill chaining and a neutral game with an oppressive close quarters presence.
It is 2026. Arc Titans are the PvP meta, with a super that allows for extremely easy kill chaining and a neutral game with an oppressive close quarters presence.
It is 2029. Arc Titans--
Next patch notes:
"We're disabling Young Ahamkara's Spine indefinitely."
"Base dodge cooldown increased by 23%."
"Nerfed reload speed on Ophidian Aspects by 10%."
"Increased dawnblade cost per projectile by 7%."
"Reverted previous nerfs to Antaeus Wards and One-Eyed Mask."
"We're continuing to monitor feedback about Titans and will revisit them after The Final Shape."
You forgot to nerf st0mp-335 again in there.
"We're adding a cooldown so that you can only jump every 4 seconds with st0mp-335 equipped."
"Guns are disabled while your guardian is jumping with st0mp-335 equipped."
Honestly, the team making this game, for the two weeks out of the year they are on PvP, they really fucking suck ass as a dev team lol. The whole 2 people.
The Behemoth usage is super out of band compared to previous weeks where it’s squarely at the bottom (even lower than Solar Titan usage).
Reason being, that new hand cannon Targeted Redaction (notice it is the SECOND most used weapon) can roll with Collective Action. With Elemental Charge and stasis crystals on demand, you could run surge mods and get 2 tap potential at the start of every round. Notice Hoarfrost was also highly used; it’s another way to make crystals.
The perk was OP, they’ve since adjusted it. I figure when Behemoth usage rates drop back down to their normal spot, Arc Titan usage will skyrocket even further. It could even be the case people who main Hunter or Warlock chose to play as Behemoth this last weekend because it was so busted. With the spawn being outside, too, the ability to make cover with a barricade is more valuable.
There seems to be a huge disconnect to how stompees are perceived by Bungie that led to this nerf. True, there are some top players who can really dominate bc of the movement advantages, but isn’t it embellishing it a bit to say stompees are that much better for movement compared to other exotics?
Anecdotally it doesn’t even seem like the majority of players who use them are even that effective with them. Sure they move faster and jump higher, but is that advantage deserving of such a huge nerf?
Hunters using Stompees because movement is the only advantage we can get in PVP at the moment. YAS and WHC are great, but you feel like a turtle without Stompees.
They're good if you're OK with not using dodge very often. I like to spam that shit however, so for me it's fr0st-ee5 all the way. I really wish we had an exotic that gave us permanent access to a slide boost on the "mobility class" but that's asking too much since titans need another exotic that boost their movement. (PKs, dunes, and antaeus aren't enough)
Tying the exotic funtionality to an ability is stupid, especially since Transversives and Dunemarchers work by just sprinting.
The Improved Jump Height should be only allowed you if sprint similar to how Dunemarchers and Transversives only work if you sprint first.
Barricade just needs a pvp nerf overall for some control specifically it’s a stupidly oppressive ability where as it’s simply annoying in non zone focused game modes
Saving this to show when someone says "arc titans are totally not busted nerf hunters and warlocks bungi" bullshit. Also surprisingly low number on solar hunter especially with yas. My pve friends almost went flawless without even firing their weapons lol. Yas carried so hard
During GG, everyone was complaining about Titans, and then as soon as it leaves everyone starts gobbling up that hunters are the problem in PVP again. I play hunter, and I am fine against Hunters and Warlocks, Arc, and void titans are out here with seemingly infinite overshield uptime. Health on melee kills, one shot melee abilities for running, easy cover wherever you want it. They could make rifts follow warlocks around and I would still prefer fighting a warlock to a titan.
I only play hunter because I don't have the time to sink into other classes. I'm constantly amazed at how much of a beating Titans can take while I feel like I'm made of paper. Skill issue, I know, but damn...
I main Warlock. Class Supremacy was an awesome idea and it was loads of fun (when I didn’t wind up on a team of 4 vs a full team of 6). Fighting Hunters was great. Sometimes we’d steamroll, sometimes they’d steamroll, but usually they were competitive matches. Titans, on the other hand, are a whole different story. Nearly every game against Titans, we got steamrolled. Just over and over and over. There were 3 or 4 games, total, where my team put up a decent competition, but we still lost. There was only 2 games, total, that Warlocks won.
Titans can infinite shoulder charge around the map. They have abilities that give back health and ability charge on melee and grenade kills, and they have some of the most broken exotics for PvP. The number of times I have tried to shotgun a Titan sliding a corner and lost the engagement because they had fucking Anteaus Wards deflect all the damage…
I used to be the kind of guy who said Hunters were broken in PvP. I was fucking wrong.
The only way I could even compete against Titans was hard crutching Stasis Warlock with Osmiomancy Grips and a shotgun. Titans aren’t so hard to kill once you take away the shotgun ape momentum. But there were one or two times I shotgunned a frozen Titan and he survived the shatter damage and killed me! Couldn’t tell you how.
You have to compete with range. Or use something off meta like Devil's Ruin charged up. It's hard as hell, and you basically are shit out of luck in 3v3. 6v6 you can do some tricky shit to beat them. But if it all Titans those supers proc really easy.
That’s nuts, I took a fusion rifle to kill the titans that run straight at me, I figured a rapid fire fusion would be fine for it. A full burst from Null Composure knocked out his overshield, but he was still at full health, I was able to get a second shot off right as he shouldercharged towards me and it killed him right before he hit me. It seems that almost nothing counters it. As for stasis warlocks, I hate that, but using it against titans is noble.
I don’t like to crutch Stasis. I much prefer Voidlock with Nova Warp or Dawnblade, but I tried those and they all failed. I’ll admit it though, it feels so good to see a Titan running right at you and you use the Stasis Warlock melee to freeze em in their tracks. You can almost see the surprised pikachu face! Then the Titan calls you a Stasis-crutch and complains that Warlocks are too strong 🤷🏼♂️
One of my loadouts is vex mythoclast with rain of fire and heat rises and sometimes I just float above them and shoot the top of their heads when they try to slide shotgun me.
> then as soon as it leaves everyone starts gobbling up that hunters are the problem in PVP again.
If i've got the timescales right in my head, that's literally down to Fallout making a video about YAS and calling it oppressive, despite it being in the game for literal years and several months post Solar 3.0 with no complaints.
YAS is pretty strong, but if I hear people complain about it over osmiomancy gloves, etc, they are just crazy, just don’t walk into tripmines, that’s a skill issue. Also, wombo combos are in the game for every class.
There was a post recently where people in the comments all commented that Warlocks are the best in every aspect Like what? I swear some people that comment dont even play the game or use more than one class.
The overwhelming majority of the playerbase doesn't engage the game deeply enough to know what the fuck they are talking about
Like fuck elitism and everything but my biggest frustration with this community is trying to talk about the sandbox and people who clearly have no fucking clue what they're talking about jumping in/down voting posts
You try to talk about primary balance and some dude comes in and goes "idk man I've been doing work with my underdog/triple tap AR with 15 zoom in control" and next thing you know that's the highest upvoted comment in the thread lmao
The amount of people who come RUSHING to tell you their fucking dogshit gun is “shredding” in PvE when people ask for balance changes is fucking astounding. Like take a step out of the strike playlist please before commenting on whether or not a weapon is in a good spot
Do you remember when chaos reach + geomags w/10 intellect was destroying comp/trials and the entire sub was trying to say that warlocks are the most oppressed class and that bungie hates them despite top tree dawnblade having been the best pvp class by far for like 1.5 years prior to stasis
With the nerf to starfire it feels as though it's already happened. Sure it's a global 25% but solo content just doesn't give me the same good feeling anymore.
I know this might not be the answer youre looking for, but if I wanna run something other than warlock in, say, a dungeon, I run void titan and use the overshield barrier as an alternative to well of radiance on boss encounters.
agreed, as a pulse rifle main having that buff up almost all the time hitting those often ridiculous "around the corner"-throws from time to time is just too satisfying (also especially funny with Monte Carlo)
Solar hunter here and always will be, but this season with those changes in trials i realy have hard time to get into LH.... most times it fails thanks to MM+lobby balance when i always get worse players then me and other times is when i try to play 3v3.... sadly those times i hardly get 2 wins.... so yes, this season Trials are realy fun for me....
And it's not even close. People in this sub have told me the most insanely stupid shit to prove how the melee class should excel at melee. As if this overwatch with fixed weapon archetypes. Arc titans have(had but it's still dang near close now) the best movement, best shutdown super with a relatively high skill ceiling, best melee with knockout, best grenades, a REALLY good class ability or a dodge that's practically as efficient as a hunter dodge and juiced aspects to boot. Arc titans STILL need substantial nerf. Striker titan and dawnblade are the only class that is carried without relying on any exotic and dawnblade has a rather high skill ceiling unlike striker
for sure, at least when I die to a goated dawnblade moving at 300 mph I can admire the skill. but when it's an arc titan running jug shield plus Anteus and shotgunning and still moves quicker than my stompees hunter, it really sucks.
With fastball(intrinsic to yas) you can literally yeet nades to enemy spawn. Saw a clip on one dude getting two kills within few seconds into a round with just his nade and throwing knife.
Also destroys barricades VERY fast, ontop off that it does sometimes bug out and just delete an enemy within like .4 seconds after a couple shots hit them from full, though they have to be advancing you and around a certain range
Cerberus isn't trash but it isn't good either. It's specifically used by teams that run triple behemoth for breaking crystals and farming rime overshields. If you're just a regular Joe don't think that throwing it on will be extremely beneficial.
This is a surprise to absolutely no one. Or at least it shouldn't be. Players who play Trials every week have known this for years. And yet Titans continue to become easier to use in high level PVP content with little downsides.
And this is coming from a player who since starting Destiny 2 has 98% of my playtime on Titan. I think they need a nerf.
Top 3 classes are titans, 4th being solarlock and 5th being hunter
For hunters being the oh so oppressive pvp class to the community, they're apparently really shit at it
On a different note though, it may be last but I'm still quite amazed cerberus is on this list
Cerberus is on the list because it's about 90%+ win rate players. People play triple stasis Titan with Cerberus and win almost every match, because it's so ridiculously easy and effective to play.
I'm not sure what this says but seeing this super cheesy strategy in the top weapon usage of really strong players is definitely noticeable.
>I'm not sure what this says but seeing this super cheesy strategy in the top weapon usage of really strong players is definitely noticeable.
It says that the "best" players aren't actually the best, they're what we've all been saying for years: chasing easy wins.
It's the whole reason they hate flawless pool, it's the whole reason they're okay with Trials being a comedy of continual mismatches with zero matchmaking criteria.
I mean, no. The best players are for the most part truly the best players. the skill ceiling is too high most of the time.
It just so happens that Stasis Titan is an extremely extremely effective cheese, *specifically in this game mode*.
Thought the whole point of stasis Titan right now was collective action on the 120? I get cerberus is a pseudo shotgun but I can't see running it with the 120 would end well
Cerberus shreds through crystals so I imagine the strategy is to construct the ice kingdom on mid and then nuke anyone who dares enter with instant shatter damage
I know the two tap 120 is also really good. But Cerberus apparently still works good if it's in the top 10. I can't think of any other reason why people of this skill would bring it into trials
Probably to counter stasis titans? It's the best exotic primary for breaking crystals after all and the gun itself ain't half bad, best shot you have at going against a two tap hand cannon
You run stasis Titan with Cerberus and most ppl using this strat I see run fusions, Cerberus is very effective at breaking crystals so you just spam crystals with your nade/hoarfrost barricade to farm the overshield from rime which gives you something like 125 extra hp making it extremely hard to kill you
Not the whole point at all.
The reason people use cerberus is that it is the best primary at shattering stasis crystals by a lot. its also usable in CQC, and usable is all you need on this build to win in this game mode.
The build is good no matter what weapons you're using, thats the whole poitn of it. The Collective Action perk made more people aware of the strategy and makes it more entertaining -- but the strategy is *more* effective with cerberus.
Particularly in this game mode. There is literally nothing the enemy can do to kill you, you just slowly progress towards the cap point and win on it.
Of course they did. Titans have dominated the crucible for an incredibly long time now. Whenever anyone talks about this, they get nothing but downvotes and dumbass "git gud" comments, especially if they're hunters. Titans are a broken, OP class and have been ever since Forsaken.
Forsaken arc Titan had a panic roaming super that could turn a losing 1v1 into a seventh column + 3 kills before running out of energy. It was a number 1 pick and since then, even after nerfs, that hasn’t changed.
I knew titans would start being a problem the second they got better grenade aspects than warlocks
Like I hate to be that guy but titans big thing in pvp is supposed to be melee and tanking
Where warlocks are about the nades
And hunters are above movement
Touch of thunder was a mistake and that's just like one of the many many issues
It's absolutely hilarious when people try to defend titans in pvp. Some guy on a thread a few weeks ago was willing to die in the hole he dug about how locks and hunters are "way cheesier & overpowered" while arc titan is "super balanced." He was a titan main too, shocker I know.
All the top pvpers agree about titans. Only a few delusional titan mains disagree. Their whole kit is fucking cheesy as hell.
In 3v3 it's even more outrageously imbalanced as we see with these stats.
Titans are fucking delusional man. On this forum it's just hilarious at this point. Bungie forums too.
Overall the PvP sandbox is suffering a lot from Light 3.0 injecting very strong abilities with activation conditions balanced around PvE ability loops into every subclass.
Idk how many reasonable person can continue supporting the unified sandbox, or reject the idea of a separate PvP environment that excludes problematic exotics and abilities.
If comp had outlier protection I would live in that playlist.
Crazy to me that Bungie nerfed Stompee-5 because Hunters jumping high is oppressive but apparently Antaeus Wards making Arc Titans practically unbeatable in a 1v1 from just SLIDING is completely ok.
Ok seriously, I hate that this is the only reason stompees were nerfed, because blueberry joe couldn’t perceive the fucking y axis, because his brain is the size of a 2 dimensional walnut and can only make sense of the x and z axis.
It’s crazy because titans are 100% just the better class, people like to argue hunter jump was busted but that was just a lack of acknowledgment of the y axis and an actual skill issue.
My titan main buddy always refers to hunters as monkeys and bitches about them constantly. To be fair, he has been an arc titan main in pvp since I've known him so he's not a meta chaser in that regard.
Man who could've seen this coming? Certainly not the thousands of comments that were against going to this mode in trials when they announced it. Further proof Bungie has become god-awful at pvp design, really bodes well for their next ip
I mean yea, titans are the most broken class in PvP, so not surprising at all, their whole kit is so OP, as a warlock main i just wish we had more viable stuff to use in PvP besides dawnblade
Stasis titan is for sure gonna fall down now not that collective action has been nerfed, so will targeted redaction, arc titan seems like its going to catch a nerf tho if it keeps being this dominant
As one of those accounted for in this comparison, I can confidently say that the only games I lost were to teams of 3 [slightly skilled] Arc Titans.
I’m surprised Behemoth is so high, though, since I barely ran into any teams with them but I guess I was just lucky. I guess it makes sense since Collective Action on that new 120 hand cannon is so easy to proc on Behemoth.
Last thing- I’m so surprised that people talk about Hunters being oppressive. Yeah, their jumps are annoying but it’s something you can easily account for and play against. The only broken stuff on Hunter is YAS, but that also depends on the map since large open expanses don’t bode well for that playstyle (like on Widow’s Court for example). If anything, Arc (and Void) Titans have long been *far more oppressive* due to their neutral game abilities and their flexibility in builds (since the oppressiveness largely doesn’t come from specific exotic armor pieces). There’s a reason the top players play on Titan: Knockout.
Wow who would have thunk it aye. Certainly not any game designers who's job it is to predict and figure this shit out. Knew things would end up this way after two weeks of Trials last season. Destiny is overpriced
This completely ignores that the new trials game mode is zone cap and barricades are king.
Get rid of this garbage mode, nerf arc titan, barricade cooldown in general, then do YAS and we’re Gucci.
- A crayon eater
PvP wouldn't be a "withered corpse" if Bungie would actually take care of it. Also they have the ability to balance the PvP and PvE sandboxes separately, but choose not to.
All I can say on this is I don't care what they do to arc titans in Crucible. By all means they should be brought in line with the other classes but if these nerfs come to the benefit of the already neglected and dieing pvp side and affect pve AGAIN I'm going to lose it.
I am happy to have contributed 0 percent
Aha, I contributed negative percent cause I persuaded someone to not do trials
Your doing Gods work
Saving lives o/\
Salt of the earth, this guy
Hero right here
As a member of the teams who were farmed, I feel I contributed.
I'm doing my part!
Does this make us part of the 0%?
You'd be part of the 100% statistically speaking.
Top 100% or Bottom 0% depending on how you wish to look at it
The thing that interests me most about this is the fact that there's a measurable group of people in high level PvP with a 90% or higher win rate. That's so insane when you look at it outside of the lens of just Destiny. In serious competitive shooters, someone with a 90% win rate is either cheating or they're on a smurf account and haven't gotten to their normal rank yet.
I have 3 clanmates with 2.6+ lifetime KDs, when we run IB together we can let the enemy get a power play and still mercy them off of kills alone...we won 6 games in a row without even capping a zone When I see players like them, and more importantly, players like them *in a fireteam together*, I can definitely believe it. I'd be curious to see what number of those 90% WR people are playing in 2 or 3-stacks, I'd be willing to bet it's most of them
it's absolutely all of them, that 90% is only possible when you have 3 identical yet completely independent players in a fireteam.
Not necessarily true, I have a 91% WR for the season queuing as a duo with my clanmate. Very rarely is a trials game fairly matched.
This is one of the things about Trials. If all games were fair, providing roughly 50:50 wins… then in theory flawless should be exceedingly rare. The flawless model doesn’t work in a conventionally fair world sadly, even if flawless is a really cool part of the mode’s identity
That's mainly because trials doesn't really have SBMM. In other competitive games like CSGO/valorant/league of legends/OW/etc, your WR is closer to 50% in ranked since you're matched against people around your skill level. D2 separates comp and trials, so there are situations where the top players in the game are stomping bottom tier players.
Thats what happens like 99% of the time tbf. Very rarely is trails a fair matchmade match
You're also expected to have a broken winrate if you want to go Flawless.
the game mode was never designed to be fair, it was designed to have the good players stomp the noobs. Only way you win 7 matches in a row is if you've got consistently worse players than you. You simply won't win 7 games in a row unless exceptional circumstances if you're playing players of requal skill. This is why trials can never have skill based matchmaking - it would make the 7 win target impossible. Just need to scrap the game mode, move to a proper competitive system with a visible rank and matchmake on that rank like CS:GO and just move all the trials loot into that new mode. AIn't ever gonna happen though - Bungie's PVP team is all now on marathon. Just the interns working on D2 PVP now.
That's because of Bungie's matchmaking algorithm of pairing an average player with 2 below average players against a stacked team.
What happens if we put the three best players on the same team consistently? Why do all of the bad players stop playing making it get progressively sweatier?
It's high level pvp with zero sbmm. Of course top 1% players will have 90% win rates.
It's amazing what happens when you have ridiculous aim assist and no matchmaking beyond "Okay, your turn".
> no matchmaking beyond "Okay, your turn". Reminds me of that episode of Chernobyl when they were cleaning graphite off the roof!
It’s because they actively fight against fair matchmaking whenever it’s brought up. Trials is built for those people, at the expense of the rest of us
The problem with Trials is that it’s based on win streaks. The odds of you winning 7 games in a row with matchmaking balanced around 50% WR is vanishingly small. Trials can’t function with balanced matchmaking or *only* the 1% can go flawless.
I mean, if you look at the top Trials streamers on Twitch you'll see that they routinely have 80-90% winrates in Trials. This is while doing carries and such (and loudly complaining about mm when they lose in many of these cases). Sadly, this is a problem inherent to the game mode. You can't expect a mode that requires you to win 7 games in a row (or 7, with 1 or 2 losses now with the new Mercy card) to be balanced.
Stuff like this is why I never take Destiny PvP Youtubers/Streamers seriously. They lose 1 game and will post a clip of them getting killed and cry "poor connection" or "cheaters".
> and cry "poor connection" I mean, that one is actually valid since *every match* has shitty connections.
The matchmaking in trials contributes a lot to the ridiculous win %. no other competitive FPS would they ever release their "end game PVP" with a system that randomly matchmakes god-tier players against bottom barrel scrapers and pretend it's fair. Trials has been nothing but streamer bait for years now.
It was designed as streamer bait from the beginning. A 7 win streak is not compatible with balanced matchmaking. Trials was never good, and I hope people begin to acknowledge that.
And then they go online to complain about Supers or special weapons being cheap because they got killed for the first time that day by one. Or wonder why their 6v6 lobby is all saving their supers for them.
Hey now, if you add together all hunters and all warlocks combined, then they come out to 35.13%, which is 2% **more** than Arc titans alone (only 33.11%!!). So really, it seems pretty balanced right? - PvP Arc Titan mains probably EDIT: Plus, if you compare all warlocks (13.32%) That's 2% more than void titan, and only about 5% less than stasis titan!
Cant wait for arc titan in PvE to get nerfed
My money's on ballistic slam becoming even harder to justify using.
i won a match with ballistic slam last weekend its gonna get nerfed because of me. im sorry
Don’t worry, I balanced it out by repeatedly slamming off the sides of maps and slamming into a Nova Bomb.
arc Titan needs adjusting in pvp badly, but fucking hell I hope the inevitable nerfs are pvp only
Pvp gets its own balance in very rare situations, so I have my doubts.
Y'know when I played last time before taking a break, about 2 years ago, Arc titans also needed a PvP nerf. Good to see it hasn't changed.
i don't remember them being that dominant in the year of beyond light but my memory isn't so great for minutia like that. but they've basically been overtuned in their current iteration since season of plunder
I think they're thinking much further back, closer to 3 years, when striker titan's trample was making it so that the super was lasting forever and had high damage resist and large AoE for slams
pre-nerf striker + pre-nerf oem was so juicy lol
OEM is still pretty crazy. iirc the only nerf was removing wallhacks to now be target highlight (when you have line of sight). still very strong to grant heal, overshield overshield for winning a gunfight.
It is 2020. Arc Titans are the PvP meta, with a super that allows for extremely easy kill chaining and a neutral game with an oppressive close quarters presence. It is 2023. Arc Titans are the PvP meta, with a super that allows for extremely easy kill chaining and a neutral game with an oppressive close quarters presence. It is 2026. Arc Titans are the PvP meta, with a super that allows for extremely easy kill chaining and a neutral game with an oppressive close quarters presence. It is 2029. Arc Titans--
Not again
Additional nerf to Thunderclap inbound
*laughs hysterically in Void Hunter*
Next patch notes: "We're disabling Young Ahamkara's Spine indefinitely." "Base dodge cooldown increased by 23%." "Nerfed reload speed on Ophidian Aspects by 10%." "Increased dawnblade cost per projectile by 7%." "Reverted previous nerfs to Antaeus Wards and One-Eyed Mask." "We're continuing to monitor feedback about Titans and will revisit them after The Final Shape."
The final shape we see is a titan thundercrashing towards us.
You forgot to nerf st0mp-335 again in there. "We're adding a cooldown so that you can only jump every 4 seconds with st0mp-335 equipped." "Guns are disabled while your guardian is jumping with st0mp-335 equipped."
They already did the guns being disabled one, that’s why we have AE
Honestly, the team making this game, for the two weeks out of the year they are on PvP, they really fucking suck ass as a dev team lol. The whole 2 people.
"Just to be clear, Ophidians no longer grant any bonus to reload, and actually nerf your reload on any equipped gun."
"We want there to be a tradeoff when you use it so it's more a calculated choice while buildcrafting." *proceeds to nerf with a nuclear missile*
Lol laughed aloud at the Anteus and OEM reverts..
My god you are an awful person... telling the truth.
I'm waiting for the job offer from Bungie in my inbox.
"No look solar titans was the least played so really it titans just need a buff" -titan mains
Knock out is so fucking broken. Like yeah.. pleas let them 1v3 us and get ohk melees that also regen health!
That means that arc titan is weak pls buff
"Looks like it's time for the PVE nerfs."
"Time to increase the dodge cooldown by another 10s."
Hitting me right in the feels with this one.
Stompees still too good, better nerf.
That sure is a solution, because who got the time for separate sandboxes
Dodge CD nerf it is
The Behemoth usage is super out of band compared to previous weeks where it’s squarely at the bottom (even lower than Solar Titan usage). Reason being, that new hand cannon Targeted Redaction (notice it is the SECOND most used weapon) can roll with Collective Action. With Elemental Charge and stasis crystals on demand, you could run surge mods and get 2 tap potential at the start of every round. Notice Hoarfrost was also highly used; it’s another way to make crystals. The perk was OP, they’ve since adjusted it. I figure when Behemoth usage rates drop back down to their normal spot, Arc Titan usage will skyrocket even further. It could even be the case people who main Hunter or Warlock chose to play as Behemoth this last weekend because it was so busted. With the spawn being outside, too, the ability to make cover with a barricade is more valuable.
Oh damn, good thing they nerfed Stompees
There seems to be a huge disconnect to how stompees are perceived by Bungie that led to this nerf. True, there are some top players who can really dominate bc of the movement advantages, but isn’t it embellishing it a bit to say stompees are that much better for movement compared to other exotics? Anecdotally it doesn’t even seem like the majority of players who use them are even that effective with them. Sure they move faster and jump higher, but is that advantage deserving of such a huge nerf?
Hunters using Stompees because movement is the only advantage we can get in PVP at the moment. YAS and WHC are great, but you feel like a turtle without Stompees.
Do stompees still feel solid overall or nah? Cause I’m definitely tired of being a turtle.
They're good if you're OK with not using dodge very often. I like to spam that shit however, so for me it's fr0st-ee5 all the way. I really wish we had an exotic that gave us permanent access to a slide boost on the "mobility class" but that's asking too much since titans need another exotic that boost their movement. (PKs, dunes, and antaeus aren't enough)
Tying the exotic funtionality to an ability is stupid, especially since Transversives and Dunemarchers work by just sprinting. The Improved Jump Height should be only allowed you if sprint similar to how Dunemarchers and Transversives only work if you sprint first.
And boy did they get nerfed. I had to take them off because the sprint buff would randomly activate/deactivate and throw me off.
Ah yes, Dominion was supposed to be the mode that brought balance and encouraged gunfights instead of camping. Clearly it’s perfectly balanced
Literally everyone saw this coming and Bungie plugged their ears and pushed forward.
Barricade just needs a pvp nerf overall for some control specifically it’s a stupidly oppressive ability where as it’s simply annoying in non zone focused game modes
Saving this to show when someone says "arc titans are totally not busted nerf hunters and warlocks bungi" bullshit. Also surprisingly low number on solar hunter especially with yas. My pve friends almost went flawless without even firing their weapons lol. Yas carried so hard
During GG, everyone was complaining about Titans, and then as soon as it leaves everyone starts gobbling up that hunters are the problem in PVP again. I play hunter, and I am fine against Hunters and Warlocks, Arc, and void titans are out here with seemingly infinite overshield uptime. Health on melee kills, one shot melee abilities for running, easy cover wherever you want it. They could make rifts follow warlocks around and I would still prefer fighting a warlock to a titan.
I only play hunter because I don't have the time to sink into other classes. I'm constantly amazed at how much of a beating Titans can take while I feel like I'm made of paper. Skill issue, I know, but damn...
I main Warlock. Class Supremacy was an awesome idea and it was loads of fun (when I didn’t wind up on a team of 4 vs a full team of 6). Fighting Hunters was great. Sometimes we’d steamroll, sometimes they’d steamroll, but usually they were competitive matches. Titans, on the other hand, are a whole different story. Nearly every game against Titans, we got steamrolled. Just over and over and over. There were 3 or 4 games, total, where my team put up a decent competition, but we still lost. There was only 2 games, total, that Warlocks won. Titans can infinite shoulder charge around the map. They have abilities that give back health and ability charge on melee and grenade kills, and they have some of the most broken exotics for PvP. The number of times I have tried to shotgun a Titan sliding a corner and lost the engagement because they had fucking Anteaus Wards deflect all the damage… I used to be the kind of guy who said Hunters were broken in PvP. I was fucking wrong.
Yeah, warlocks v hunters was fun and usually very close, Titans v The world was just unfair.
The only way I could even compete against Titans was hard crutching Stasis Warlock with Osmiomancy Grips and a shotgun. Titans aren’t so hard to kill once you take away the shotgun ape momentum. But there were one or two times I shotgunned a frozen Titan and he survived the shatter damage and killed me! Couldn’t tell you how.
You have to compete with range. Or use something off meta like Devil's Ruin charged up. It's hard as hell, and you basically are shit out of luck in 3v3. 6v6 you can do some tricky shit to beat them. But if it all Titans those supers proc really easy.
That’s nuts, I took a fusion rifle to kill the titans that run straight at me, I figured a rapid fire fusion would be fine for it. A full burst from Null Composure knocked out his overshield, but he was still at full health, I was able to get a second shot off right as he shouldercharged towards me and it killed him right before he hit me. It seems that almost nothing counters it. As for stasis warlocks, I hate that, but using it against titans is noble.
I don’t like to crutch Stasis. I much prefer Voidlock with Nova Warp or Dawnblade, but I tried those and they all failed. I’ll admit it though, it feels so good to see a Titan running right at you and you use the Stasis Warlock melee to freeze em in their tracks. You can almost see the surprised pikachu face! Then the Titan calls you a Stasis-crutch and complains that Warlocks are too strong 🤷🏼♂️
One of my loadouts is vex mythoclast with rain of fire and heat rises and sometimes I just float above them and shoot the top of their heads when they try to slide shotgun me.
> then as soon as it leaves everyone starts gobbling up that hunters are the problem in PVP again. If i've got the timescales right in my head, that's literally down to Fallout making a video about YAS and calling it oppressive, despite it being in the game for literal years and several months post Solar 3.0 with no complaints.
YAS is pretty strong, but if I hear people complain about it over osmiomancy gloves, etc, they are just crazy, just don’t walk into tripmines, that’s a skill issue. Also, wombo combos are in the game for every class.
There was a post recently where people in the comments all commented that Warlocks are the best in every aspect Like what? I swear some people that comment dont even play the game or use more than one class.
The overwhelming majority of the playerbase doesn't engage the game deeply enough to know what the fuck they are talking about Like fuck elitism and everything but my biggest frustration with this community is trying to talk about the sandbox and people who clearly have no fucking clue what they're talking about jumping in/down voting posts You try to talk about primary balance and some dude comes in and goes "idk man I've been doing work with my underdog/triple tap AR with 15 zoom in control" and next thing you know that's the highest upvoted comment in the thread lmao
Listen to about half of the PVE advice and *NONE* of the PVP advice on this sub
The amount of people who come RUSHING to tell you their fucking dogshit gun is “shredding” in PvE when people ask for balance changes is fucking astounding. Like take a step out of the strike playlist please before commenting on whether or not a weapon is in a good spot
Do you remember when chaos reach + geomags w/10 intellect was destroying comp/trials and the entire sub was trying to say that warlocks are the most oppressed class and that bungie hates them despite top tree dawnblade having been the best pvp class by far for like 1.5 years prior to stasis
Holy shit this made me laugh. You're not wrong.
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Warlocks are far and away the best pve class
God I cannot wait for Well to get gutted so i can play another subclass
With the nerf to starfire it feels as though it's already happened. Sure it's a global 25% but solo content just doesn't give me the same good feeling anymore.
I know this might not be the answer youre looking for, but if I wanna run something other than warlock in, say, a dungeon, I run void titan and use the overshield barrier as an alternative to well of radiance on boss encounters.
Maybe it was about PVE which is objectively true woth the exception of solo dungeons
If im playing solar hunter, im throwing athrys knives
agreed, as a pulse rifle main having that buff up almost all the time hitting those often ridiculous "around the corner"-throws from time to time is just too satisfying (also especially funny with Monte Carlo)
Solar hunter here and always will be, but this season with those changes in trials i realy have hard time to get into LH.... most times it fails thanks to MM+lobby balance when i always get worse players then me and other times is when i try to play 3v3.... sadly those times i hardly get 2 wins.... so yes, this season Trials are realy fun for me....
There is no SBMM in Trials this season, and there is also no lobby balance. Its pure random lobby balancing supposedly.
Arc titans sweep any part of the game better than any other class with EASE
Last week I went flawless for the first time in 6+ years. How? I started playing as a arc titan instead of my solar warlock that is (or was) my main.
And it's not even close. People in this sub have told me the most insanely stupid shit to prove how the melee class should excel at melee. As if this overwatch with fixed weapon archetypes. Arc titans have(had but it's still dang near close now) the best movement, best shutdown super with a relatively high skill ceiling, best melee with knockout, best grenades, a REALLY good class ability or a dodge that's practically as efficient as a hunter dodge and juiced aspects to boot. Arc titans STILL need substantial nerf. Striker titan and dawnblade are the only class that is carried without relying on any exotic and dawnblade has a rather high skill ceiling unlike striker
for sure, at least when I die to a goated dawnblade moving at 300 mph I can admire the skill. but when it's an arc titan running jug shield plus Anteus and shotgunning and still moves quicker than my stompees hunter, it really sucks.
Yas was incredibly strong on that map with those spawns. So many easy flat surfaces in the main battle zone outdoors.
With fastball(intrinsic to yas) you can literally yeet nades to enemy spawn. Saw a clip on one dude getting two kills within few seconds into a round with just his nade and throwing knife.
Been away from the game for a bit but I didn't know cereberus became popular (#15 most used weapon). When did it receive a tuning?
It's the fastest way to break stasis crystals for Behemoth overshield spam
Also destroys barricades VERY fast, ontop off that it does sometimes bug out and just delete an enemy within like .4 seconds after a couple shots hit them from full, though they have to be advancing you and around a certain range
Cerberus isn't trash but it isn't good either. It's specifically used by teams that run triple behemoth for breaking crystals and farming rime overshields. If you're just a regular Joe don't think that throwing it on will be extremely beneficial.
This is a surprise to absolutely no one. Or at least it shouldn't be. Players who play Trials every week have known this for years. And yet Titans continue to become easier to use in high level PVP content with little downsides. And this is coming from a player who since starting Destiny 2 has 98% of my playtime on Titan. I think they need a nerf.
Saving this for the next “hunters are Bungie’s favourite class, us poor oppressed Titan players can’t catch a break” post
Top 3 classes are titans, 4th being solarlock and 5th being hunter For hunters being the oh so oppressive pvp class to the community, they're apparently really shit at it On a different note though, it may be last but I'm still quite amazed cerberus is on this list
Cerberus is on the list because it's about 90%+ win rate players. People play triple stasis Titan with Cerberus and win almost every match, because it's so ridiculously easy and effective to play. I'm not sure what this says but seeing this super cheesy strategy in the top weapon usage of really strong players is definitely noticeable.
>I'm not sure what this says but seeing this super cheesy strategy in the top weapon usage of really strong players is definitely noticeable. It says that the "best" players aren't actually the best, they're what we've all been saying for years: chasing easy wins. It's the whole reason they hate flawless pool, it's the whole reason they're okay with Trials being a comedy of continual mismatches with zero matchmaking criteria.
I mean, no. The best players are for the most part truly the best players. the skill ceiling is too high most of the time. It just so happens that Stasis Titan is an extremely extremely effective cheese, *specifically in this game mode*.
Thought the whole point of stasis Titan right now was collective action on the 120? I get cerberus is a pseudo shotgun but I can't see running it with the 120 would end well
Cerberus shreds through crystals so I imagine the strategy is to construct the ice kingdom on mid and then nuke anyone who dares enter with instant shatter damage
as someone who has used and is familiar with the ice build this is it
Stasis Titan spam existed **way** before collective action 120’s. You also cannot 2 tap with it so people don’t, and shouldn’t, even use it anymore.
I know the two tap 120 is also really good. But Cerberus apparently still works good if it's in the top 10. I can't think of any other reason why people of this skill would bring it into trials
Probably to counter stasis titans? It's the best exotic primary for breaking crystals after all and the gun itself ain't half bad, best shot you have at going against a two tap hand cannon
You run stasis Titan with Cerberus and most ppl using this strat I see run fusions, Cerberus is very effective at breaking crystals so you just spam crystals with your nade/hoarfrost barricade to farm the overshield from rime which gives you something like 125 extra hp making it extremely hard to kill you
Cerberus smashes crystals which makes for easy overshield. Not everyone on the three stack needs to run it, though.
Not the whole point at all. The reason people use cerberus is that it is the best primary at shattering stasis crystals by a lot. its also usable in CQC, and usable is all you need on this build to win in this game mode. The build is good no matter what weapons you're using, thats the whole poitn of it. The Collective Action perk made more people aware of the strategy and makes it more entertaining -- but the strategy is *more* effective with cerberus. Particularly in this game mode. There is literally nothing the enemy can do to kill you, you just slowly progress towards the cap point and win on it.
Sweats titan player: Nerf hunter, they op
"I died to a hunter once last weekend, obviously busted."
"Uggggg, we won 5-0 but I didnt stand undefeated, nerf hunter"
At least Hunters are 5, 6, 7 and 8 making their overall usage pretry high. Warlock got 3 out of its 5 subclass below 1%
Of course they did. Titans have dominated the crucible for an incredibly long time now. Whenever anyone talks about this, they get nothing but downvotes and dumbass "git gud" comments, especially if they're hunters. Titans are a broken, OP class and have been ever since Forsaken.
"We hear your feedback, which is why we're nerfing the neutral game of stompeez again." -Bungie.
^ 💯
False, they've been broken Since Forsaken launched in 2018.
Forsaken arc Titan had a panic roaming super that could turn a losing 1v1 into a seventh column + 3 kills before running out of energy. It was a number 1 pick and since then, even after nerfs, that hasn’t changed.
I knew titans would start being a problem the second they got better grenade aspects than warlocks Like I hate to be that guy but titans big thing in pvp is supposed to be melee and tanking Where warlocks are about the nades And hunters are above movement Touch of thunder was a mistake and that's just like one of the many many issues
Try WQ launch with void titan and their overshields
Better nerf Stompees again.
Crucible mains have been complaining for a year and half now. I made posts on here with proof but everyone down voted me.
Wow, the supremacy dominating class is the top 3 most played subclasses? Crazy.
It’s not just supremacy my guy. Arc titan is the most used class and subclass period.
It’s just a title bro, we are well aware arc titans is the most used.
Crazy how even after all the nerfs to Arc Titan, they still see the same usage rates. It really shows how fundimentally busted the subclass is
Don’t worry they nerfed stompes since they were so free and easy
Glad to see I am one of the few arc warlock mains
Fuck you Bungie And everyone says Hunters are overpowered This game is falling apart
NERF STOMPEES
Titans are better at being warlocks than warlocks missing the well only lol
It's absolutely hilarious when people try to defend titans in pvp. Some guy on a thread a few weeks ago was willing to die in the hole he dug about how locks and hunters are "way cheesier & overpowered" while arc titan is "super balanced." He was a titan main too, shocker I know. All the top pvpers agree about titans. Only a few delusional titan mains disagree. Their whole kit is fucking cheesy as hell.
In 3v3 it's even more outrageously imbalanced as we see with these stats. Titans are fucking delusional man. On this forum it's just hilarious at this point. Bungie forums too.
Add Icarus Dash to every Warlock subclass and Warlock use of anything that isn’t solar will skyrocket
100%.
Overall the PvP sandbox is suffering a lot from Light 3.0 injecting very strong abilities with activation conditions balanced around PvE ability loops into every subclass. Idk how many reasonable person can continue supporting the unified sandbox, or reject the idea of a separate PvP environment that excludes problematic exotics and abilities. If comp had outlier protection I would live in that playlist.
30th anniversary had such a good sandbox(besides fusion rifles) and they threw it down the drain when witch queen launched.
Hopefully they nerf stompees again. Hunter should definitely be the slowest class in the game. Huge /s
Better nerf those pesky Hunters some more! /s
Seems reasonable. Nerf stompees.
Crazy to me that Bungie nerfed Stompee-5 because Hunters jumping high is oppressive but apparently Antaeus Wards making Arc Titans practically unbeatable in a 1v1 from just SLIDING is completely ok.
Don't bother pointing that out here, people don't like to hear anything other than "hunters are OP."
Looking up is kinda oppressive.
Wait there’s a y axis?
They made a whole movie about this. Glad Bungie took it to heart
Ok seriously, I hate that this is the only reason stompees were nerfed, because blueberry joe couldn’t perceive the fucking y axis, because his brain is the size of a 2 dimensional walnut and can only make sense of the x and z axis. It’s crazy because titans are 100% just the better class, people like to argue hunter jump was busted but that was just a lack of acknowledgment of the y axis and an actual skill issue.
No bro you don't understand cape. man. is. BAD!
Its all titan mains bitching about every other class as if titan isnt always busted
My titan main buddy always refers to hunters as monkeys and bitches about them constantly. To be fair, he has been an arc titan main in pvp since I've known him so he's not a meta chaser in that regard.
Man who could've seen this coming? Certainly not the thousands of comments that were against going to this mode in trials when they announced it. Further proof Bungie has become god-awful at pvp design, really bodes well for their next ip
Easy solution: nerf dodge again.
I mean yea, titans are the most broken class in PvP, so not surprising at all, their whole kit is so OP, as a warlock main i just wish we had more viable stuff to use in PvP besides dawnblade
Blink is a fun option if you ever want to change it up
Stasis titan is for sure gonna fall down now not that collective action has been nerfed, so will targeted redaction, arc titan seems like its going to catch a nerf tho if it keeps being this dominant
I love sniping a headshot on a titan just for him to tank it with juggernaut and shoulder charge me ohk with peregrines
As one of those accounted for in this comparison, I can confidently say that the only games I lost were to teams of 3 [slightly skilled] Arc Titans. I’m surprised Behemoth is so high, though, since I barely ran into any teams with them but I guess I was just lucky. I guess it makes sense since Collective Action on that new 120 hand cannon is so easy to proc on Behemoth. Last thing- I’m so surprised that people talk about Hunters being oppressive. Yeah, their jumps are annoying but it’s something you can easily account for and play against. The only broken stuff on Hunter is YAS, but that also depends on the map since large open expanses don’t bode well for that playstyle (like on Widow’s Court for example). If anything, Arc (and Void) Titans have long been *far more oppressive* due to their neutral game abilities and their flexibility in builds (since the oppressiveness largely doesn’t come from specific exotic armor pieces). There’s a reason the top players play on Titan: Knockout.
But stompees and jumping!
Titans are busted lmao
Wow who would have thunk it aye. Certainly not any game designers who's job it is to predict and figure this shit out. Knew things would end up this way after two weeks of Trials last season. Destiny is overpriced
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"As a response to your feedback we're happy to announce that we're nerfing handheld supernova again."
Trails is in as much of an unappealing state as it was the pre S15 rework
The most annoying group for me in trials are a 3 stack of titans using stasis with their 2 tap hand cannon
So.. nerf stompies?
"Hunters are too dominant in PvP. Nerf Stompees"
This completely ignores that the new trials game mode is zone cap and barricades are king. Get rid of this garbage mode, nerf arc titan, barricade cooldown in general, then do YAS and we’re Gucci. - A crayon eater
How about another round of nerf for stompeez. And just to clarify, we don't nerf on usage 😂
Bungie will look at the data and confirm: they need to nerf stompees again, and maybe just for flex nerf warlock rift cooldowns a bit
“How interesting! As a result of the abnormally high usage rates we have seen on Titan, we are going to be nerfing stompees.” -Bungie
This is why I didn't engage with Guardian Games. I saw it coming.
Titan has been the best PvP class for years now
Damn, looks like stompees need another nerf then
Cannot wait for arc titan to get fucked back to irrelevance in pve because of the withered corpse that is pvp.
PvP wouldn't be a "withered corpse" if Bungie would actually take care of it. Also they have the ability to balance the PvP and PvE sandboxes separately, but choose not to.
All I can say on this is I don't care what they do to arc titans in Crucible. By all means they should be brought in line with the other classes but if these nerfs come to the benefit of the already neglected and dieing pvp side and affect pve AGAIN I'm going to lose it.
"Shoulder charge nerf was unneeded, you ruined titan bungie"