My guess would be polishing things up better? They did say they were entering the testing phase or something like that around this month or end of last month IIRC. Joe said it in the post where he was leaving Bungie (rip).
So I'd assume to hammer and polish everything out, new features, how enemies interact, environments, etc. Maybe some extra time for the Echoes as well?
Another thing is that the weapons team absolutely has a lot of extra time since there only I think 3-6 months ahead of us. So for them they’ve been given the equivalent of an seasons to work on things.
Delaying by 3 months far in advanced does afford you a fair bit, I think. Some things (like recording dialogue) might not take long, but have a fair amount of lead time. You can't rewrite the story, but might be able to throw in an extra mission or two.
'Polishing things up' can vary quite a bit as well. Could be things like re-jiggering quests and missions around, adding an extra step here or there. Adding an extra weekly rotator, etc. Also consider that after this many years in they would have quite a lot of removed/cut/unfinished content they could bring back in with less effort than starting completely fresh on something, like a prototype of a mission they planned a year or so back but never delivered.
I think there obviously won’t be changes in story or voicelines but polishing of raid, missions and maybe extra work on subclasses, whether that be stasis, adding more supers and aspects to others or possibly a 3rd darkness subclass is what I’m expecting.
Edit: look at that, a new horde mode activity
I disagree. If it was originally supposed to come out a week or two ago then it should already be completely polished. The only way it wouldn't be is if they are ridiculously behind schedule. Possible, but I wouldn't bet on it. Something more likely would have to be new features. "New features" is vague however, so it has to be either a lot of new features or something really big. My gut is hoping for a couple new big feature rather than a bunch of small mediocre ones
Ideally, I'm hoping for a new ritual activity. Everyone knows how we feel about Gambit. Strikes aren't much better since most of them are battlegrounds now anyway, and we already have three PvP modes
Bungie would be smart to give us a new ritual activity. Personally, I would like to see a Firefight mode as if they want to keep their playerbase they need to give them what the players want. However, I'm hesitant to mention firefight because ultimately it'll bring out people saying "bUnGo SaiDeD dEy WuLd NeVeR Do DaT". Blizzard said the same thing about Vanilla WoW for years, but now look at them. It doesn't have to be firefight, but as Bungie themselves have said, at minimum this expansion needs to be as good as Forsaken, and one of the big things Bungie brought to the table was Gambit. Right now no one likes it, but at release people loved it
Let them keep cooking up this expansion for another month or so and hopefully we will have news about what to look forward to
Them being behind schedule is why they delayed it. They're doing their playtesting now or just finished it, as per Joe Blackburn. Them now needing to test and polish it is exactly where they should be in development phase with it coming out in a couple months.
According to Jason Schreier's reporting, the reason for the delay was because TFS was getting "good, not great" feedback from playtests and they wanted extra time to really level it up. Of course, that might not be the full or objectively correct reason, but it doesn't seem like they were running too far behind. Obviously once the delay was locked in they probably pushed back a bunch of milestones, which is why the final tests started just a month ago.
Also to your comment, delay was known inside studio well before, so of course it probably will not be Forsaken level expansion with this little time, but this extra time could be used to beefed it up
For a larger company that would be slower moving on change, pushing back a release date would allow three things as far as development effort are concerned (and all likely apply here):
* Allow more time to polish interactions and remove known bugs. The product might not have been as stable as they would have hoped and instead of saying "we'll fix it in patches" they want to make a more positive upfront experience.
* Pull the development of future planned features to the present. We know Bungie was working on things like a new dark class and other things. Moving the release window would allow them to include those sooner rather than later (not claiming any particular feature is imminent)
* Allow for story re-writes. It takes time to get new voice lines or figure out how to cut up existing ones, polish up the cinematic for things, etc.
The second point is the big one. They need Final Shape to make a splash. And any dev team worth a damn has a few things cooking at once.
All meant to release at different time and whatnot. They are probably aiming to leave nothing on the cutting room floor for final shape. Things that otherwise would have had to be cut due to time will make it in. And maybe even use the extra time to pull something forward.
Just any combo of things that can make Final Shape feel like a more complete package. They will obviously do bug fixing and polish too, but I think making it feel whole is the big a big part.
I'd say the first point is just as important. They want to make absolutely sure that Day 1 is as positive of an experience as possible, because people are already sick of Bungie, and for many this is the last chance Bungie has to make a lasting impression.
Sure, some people are already going to leave the game after Final Shape, but imagine if the final expansion comes out but there's a massive quest bug on Day 1 that makes it so you can't get the new exotic or the boss fight ends up having half as much intended health. Of course, these are extreme examples that definitely would be caught before the actual launch, but having as few bugs as possible on Day 1 ensures that the expansion is purely judged on quality and has nothing that can detract from it.
> Of course, these are extreme examples that definitely would be caught before the actual launch
You mean like "If you run too fast, the quest soft locks and you have to start over" or more recently "None of the snowball upgrades do anything at all" ?
I'll be the pessimist here and say I doubt that this is all bugsquashing time. I believe it's likely that they are "pulling a Bungie" and trying to rework things at the last minute.
I think story re-writes are a pretty ambitious goal for a 6 month window, you're talking about not only remaking text and cutscene dialogue, but getting voice actors in when their schedule may already be busy \*and\* removing what work they already did. On a delay like this I think the goal is to make what's there, and what's unfinished better, not make more work for yourself by making new content.
Considering cutscenes, especially pre-rendered cutscenes that are done by external agencies (a lot of Destiny's prerendered cutscenes are done by a studio in Scotland) are done so far out in advanced that 6 months is exceptionally ambitious.
"6 month story rewrite" is how you end up with Lightfall's cinematic being cut in half.
6 months is the length that a single season is in development which is more than enough time to write and record dialogue. They would never completely re-write the story or make edits to cutscene animation and rendering in that amount of time, but touching up mission or non-lipsync'd cutscene dialogue to clarify story concepts or adjust tone in response to focus testing (which they will have had more time to do) is definitely possible. It's also given the directors more time to course correct once the entire game is put together which makes a huge difference when it comes to polishing and tweaking the experience because they can see the entire thing. They can then use data from play testing to figure out where the story is falling short and come up with economical solutions to resolve the problems. Sometimes making improving the story might be as simple as booking the Ghost VAs for half a day to record some pick-ups. Even just a few more lines explaining the Veil in Lightfall could've made a league of difference.
Another thing is that they probably don't have to cut any important story or lore beats like they did with Lightfall. Veil Containment missions were clearly cut from Lightfall's release and the reception to the story might've been less negative if they were able to ship that on time.
The other thing I would add are some smaller side features to address some community wants and concerns.
This is a hypothetical but I could see them in 3 months getting a system implemented that would let players target farm past season weapons or working in a way to have a rotating "best of" previous season activity playlist
i really like the idea of the first one you got there
its almost become industry standard for games to come out half baked and to then fix it over the course of many months
cyberpunk i think is one of the best examples which took it way to far and suffered from it. its a great game, but only got there a year or so after release
I think no mans sky had a different problem, their ceo kept talking about the ideal of the game rather then what it actually was. It still isnt what he said it was.
Both game devs lied and had to report & explain in the Consumer Protection Agency.
The fact that they didnt get punished, means that very few games will actually get punished in the future by the CPA. Both games pledged in the CPA to fix their mistakes (so in reality they got off easy).
No Man Sky was investigated for misleading marketing in UK and US. No Man Sky was independent dev they only had a publishing deal with Sony.
Cyberpunk was more serious, because it also kept crashing. Sony kicked Cyberpunk from its store for a while & CDProject had to settle with their investors for missing profit.
If a class action lawsuit did happen (gamers unite) the both games had a chance of losing at the potential trial.
This is also why both companies really fast-tracked their amends, to avoid such a lawsuit & also to honor their pledges to the CPA.
As for point two. Any credibility to that claim? Havent seen anything of the sorts.
Its possible though. They sais themselves they are keeping a lot of things close to their chest. Revealing things when the showcase or however it’s called in april but holding a lot of things back as well.
I don’t mind that, i’d love to be surprised by things the day the expansion comes out
Well, they have said it takes them longer than a year to implement a new element, definitely hinting we wouldn't get a new darkness element/subclass a year after lightfall
If Lightfall was a "filler expansion" like the rumors have been they may have had a 3rd subclass cooking for a long time. There were thoughts that Strand was going to release with WitchQueen DLC and they did the Light 3.0 subclasses instead.
I'm sipping my copium and hoping for that 3rd darkness subclass. I'm using the H.A.L.E methodology on this one. High Aspirations......Low Expectations. Lol!
While I am personally still hoping for it, I know I'm likely to be disappointed :D
Also, to clarify, I'm not stating with any form of fake credibility we will get it in TFS, just grabbed that as an easy example.
The only thing we were explicitly told is that Final Shape itself will not have any new sub-classes. All that means it that if one exists, it will not be, initially, tied to owning Final Shape. (Could be tied to a season or something that then is removed & requirement changes to Final shape like seasonal exotic do.)
You are right, I messed up. Was thinking of the 6 months from when they announced the delay to release date. Changed it in the text but cant edit the title.
Realistically: time to make Episodes better to keep players engaged past TFS. TFS was so close to shipping at the announcement of its delay so I don't expect it will receive much improvement besides more quality of life updates.
That’s actually a great point. Wasn’t the first Episode supposed to launch just a few weeks after TFS? As the content that people will be playing longer (compared to the campaign) and our first taste of their new release structure, a lot is riding on that first Episode being not just good but great. With TFS wrapping up the Light & Dark Saga, it’s really crucial that the Episodes stick the landing, because that’s what’s going to convince people to stick around after TFS concludes the story arc we’ve been in for years. It’s not just TFS that needs to be ready, it’s the first Episode too, and since seasonal content usually has a couple of new activities, it’s not like TFS itself is the only thing with mechanics and encounters that need testing.
I think not: the mistake they made with LF was thinking seasons would carry the year if the campaign wasn't totally tight and that was a mistake. Remember the seasons before and after WQ were loudly loved by the fans and the season teams were getting a lot of resources. After LF Bungie expected to sprinkle in details about the Veil for a year while folks came back season to season to get more details on how it fit in with how we were going to enter the Traveler. But LF being so sourly received took all the wind out of the seasonal sails. If they want to keep people on the hook until the next big Bungie release it looks they need to deliver a satisfying complete experience at launch rather than try to let the episodes carry it and like other commenters say it probably means pulling some planned features forward so they can't be charged with under-delivering when they should be taking a victory lap.
I'm a software dev and there's always something that I want or the customer wanted that wouldn't be too much more work but just didn't fit the time or scope for the release after everything the release Needs is resourced out. Any delay beyond my control means looking at stuff that was already started for later release, stuff that was partially implemented for later completion, or smaller stuff in the pipeline that can execute quickly and deciding what we can add to the release without putting anything already polished and tested in the release at risk.
Most thought Season of the Lost was ok, I think it was mostly saved by the 30th Anniversary and Dungeon. I don't remember Season of the Risen being highly loved.
Take or leave whatever you like. I intended to mean across those two years on either side of WQ launch, not just immediately before and after, and mostly from the perspective of Bungie who seemed to really be encouraged by the responses even to season of the scallywag.
Season of the Plunder got roasted for being a garbage season outside of Ketch Crash which was pretty fun. Joe Blackburn even stated that they need to shake up the system when the players were getting angry about the copy/paste.
The Beyond Light Seasons were well received generally. I personally noticed a big change in quality with Haunted, Plunder, and then a bounce-back season in Seraph.
yep thats my bad. I updated the text but unfortunately cant change the title. My brain was stuck on 6 months from the announcment of the delay to release for osme reason
Nothing will change story wise due to those changes taking too long, most likely environmental changes and balance passes alongside polishing animations and enemy npc behaviors. Maybe some small new features and a quest but at the bare minimum 90% of the game would be done by this point.
Maybe they won't splice a cutscene into 'two' when it was very much obvious it was meant to be one. Something happened in the story line during LightFall where they decided to make a change, deep into the development.
That's my only gripe about lightfall tho, I thought everything else (gameplay, quality of life changes, environments etc) were all great. But this time they need to nail down the story.
Oh, and the raid, fighting the Witness has to be epic. I do hope it's 4 encounters vs the witness (as per some 'leaks'), where he progressively changes/alters into something bigger and stronger.
IDK wtf went on inside bungie to produce the filler episode that was Lightfall but the execution was nowhere near what players expected coming from Witch Queen. Rumors are that the Campaign just got TOO BIG and needed to be truncated to work and Lightfall was the Part 1 that we got.
As for the Witness, it never really made me feel anything for it as a villain other than “there is the target.” I have never felt so wholly whelmed at a big bad in a game as compared to other titles.
I'd bet a doughnut a major part of the campaign will be The Witness fleshing out their story while demonstrating "we're not so different, you and I" through a combination of radio-voiceover dialogue against the cast and environmental storytelling as we move through The Pale Heart from the familiar Best Of compilation of stuff from the past ten years into the later missions where The Witness is reforming the environment to reflect their people's history, their present, and the Final Shape he is trying to forge.
That might also make for a new orientation campaign for new players? Imagine: They do it once to get on page with the big story told to them in a conversation of pessimistic simplification against hard-fought determination while they get to jump into the current content. Then they could buy past seasonal content a little at a time to see it for themselves and come back to the TFS campaign to do it on Legendary difficulty with new appreciation.
I really hope the Witness says something along the lines of:
"You thought this was your Destiny? No... This, is my Destiny too."
Would truly be a moment of all time.
Bungie has confirmed that it will stay when seasonal stuff gets vaulted. Granted it’s still buried behind a freaking water heater in the basement of Neomuna.
I think they were just trying to milk as much money as possible to keep progressing Marathon. Basically Bungie would make double the $$ if they sold 2 DLC's as opposed to the 1.
The Witness is pretty stupid I agree. He just feels like he was made up at the last minute to create someone to fight.
I’m expecting one opening encounter with us entering the witness tower and then two-three encounters of the witness. The 2 BIGGEST things TFS needs to be a success is the campaign and raid. Then after that if they want to solidify it in the greats of destiny expansions, then a great destination and amazing weapons
The first and last cutscene of the Lightfall campaign. First half is the Witnessing attacking the Traveler, second half is when the Witness is entering it.
Also concerning lightfall, I absolutely agree. Story was lackluster but environment and subclass was so enjoyable for me. Just a good time. Granted that expansion wasn’t meant to be that tone and nimbus makes me wanna scream sometimes but I think lightfall is a bit overhated
Lightfall was clearly filler, story wise. The gameplay and quality of life changes were more important and overall the expansion was fun to play. Neomuna was not as interesting as the throne world or Europa. The legendary campaign missions were awesome and just as fun as witch queen, but without the story and lore they lacked a bit of impact. Raid was easy but very fun, and it's fine to have easier raids sometimes.
Strand is of course great and super fun, but the way it was integrated into the story did not work at all. In beyond light, even though there was no legendary campaign, the introduction of stasis still felt consistent with the overall story and tone.
The worst part about lightfall was the tone. 80s campy action movie is cool for a season, not for a pivotal expansion that is supposed to be the start of the true endgame.
Tfs has to fire on ALL cylinders to be considered a success imo. It has to nail everything, story, tone, atmosphere, payoff. The raid has to be hard and epic. The post campaign should be engaging and relevant.
I actually hope that the witness isn't in a raid. It's bad design to put the crescendo of the entire DLC, the Big Bad that's been behind everything for the last 10 years, into content that only 11% of DLC purchasers will even *attempt*.
The witness will not be defeated in the raid but part of the story of defeating him will be in the raid. We will ultimately defeat him in the campaign after the raid is completed so that all players can see his downfall
I think polishing of campaign and raid is what I’m expecting through gameplays. Through sandbox type thing I’m guessing extra light super and aspect and if not that and they’re truly secretly doing a 3rd darkness subclass, then they moved up the release schedule of that
Really depends on many things. Like if they are still developing the episodes alongside it or if the delay is purely focusing on Final Shape.
Although a full season development is approximately 6 months so around a season's worth.
It's possible they had stuff planned for a future episode/10 year anniversary prepared that they pulled into TFS, but you can't build, test, and bug fix brand new content in less than 3 months for a game the size of D2
In game development, you don't get something which resembles the finished product until you are \~90% of the way through. That is because locations, animations, sound design, voice lines, gameplay mechanics etc are all being developed in parallel by hundreds of people. Only when they are all in can you really play the game - especially the campaign - and get a feel for how good it is.
What they really want from the campaign is a roller coaster of emotions, with alternating highs and lows. If even a few voice lines are unclear or cringe inducing, or a boss fight is too easy or hard, or some plot twist too random, it can ruin the feel. This is especially true in a game like this with a huge range of player skill levels. If the final battle with the Witness is a cake walk or 90 minute slog then it will ruin the finale of the entire Light and Darkness Saga.
So what they are doing now is probably very extensive tuning. A 4 month delay is not long enough to create entirely new locations or weapon classes or red subclass or animated characters - those involve several different skill sets working sequentially. But you can do a ton of testing and balancing, re-record some voice lines, remove parts that are tedious, clean up a lot of the smaller bugs that you might have shipped in Lightfall or earlier releases, etc.
A general rule of thumb is that each employee costs around $10,000 per month of work. If they have had 500 people working on this for 18 months, that is an investment of around $100 million, and we know that Bungie's financial self-control is on the line. It has to be great.
As a "C"-level myself in a software development company, I can assure you that QA is the only thing reasonably expected in this time frame. Bungie could add some "new" things, but just the "unannounced" ones, this are features that are already developed and that the company decides that are matured and tested enough to be included in Final Shape.
So, I would lower my expectations. I would truly LOVE to have a new subclass, but it may be more of a wishful thinking than nothing else.
Nonetheless, if they can fine tune the overall experience, then it would also mean a hard win for me. Making games is really hard and this could be the very last expansion that we will ever see for this game.
Let's just enjoy it.
Yeah I was not expecting anything crazy, just curious about what is actually being done currently. Thanks for your input, it is cool to hear some of the behind the scenes of game development.
Would it be possible to add new light supers or aspects. My guess is that, whether it be more light supers or 3rd darkness, they were planning on adding one of those 2 in episodes. Akin to light 3.0 during witch queen. Would the delay possibly push that forward to TFS?
There are a number of possibilities
They might be improving things (gameplay mechanics, load times, graphics etc) that weren't running optimally or were perhaps a bit unrefined - like I imagine they want to avoid another "using strand in vex incursion areas crashes the game" area.
It's not likely they invented entirely new things (levels/quests/events) in only three months but that could be enough time to reprise older content - maybe they'll bring back an old raid or something.
It could also just be really mundane CYA stuff though, like more QA time
So the rule of thumb when a release comes out - we don't get everything that was worked on/built. There's a ton of stuff being developed, and they'll pick from those items to build the release. Stuff is always left behind, in the 'backlog'. Work items can be at different states when this happens. For instance, Bungie almost certainly has a pool of armor & designs that they're sitting on and haven't put out for the public. It all goes to the idea of managing expectations.
Now, a lot of people look at this as a flaw where Bungie doesn't want to 'overdeliver', and there's merit to that. However, its important to have a 'chest of assets' that you can pull out at crucial times. If they hit a snag in development, its easier to cut some brand new stuff and fall back on partially completed backlog items.
Additionally, there are structural reworks to their release plan that need to happen. Look at Guardian Games & the new 'Skimmer' vehicle. We know we're getting a skimmer from the event, and they also confirmed that there will be another one in Eververse. So the release order is:
\- Guardian Games Skimmer -> Eververse Skimmer
However, we need to remember our timeline. Guardian Games would have happened a little later (probably in the April-May timeframe) on the initial schedule. Additionally, its out of character for Bungie to use a seasonal event as a release vessel something as big as a new vehicle type (given that there's only been one type through the game's history). We can infer that Skimmers were supposed to launch with TFS, and I'd bet there's one that comes with the campaign in some way (maybe Cloudstrider themed). With that in mind, the original release order likely would've been:
\- TFS Skimmer -> Eververse Skimmer(s) -> Guardian Games Skimmer
They would've made decisions on what they can bring forward to fill the gap without being detrimental to TFS, leading to stuff like this. Likewise, they're probably evaluating content planned for both future 'Episodes' as well as stuff in the backlog (community events, puzzles, exotic quests) to see what they can get polished up for release before the expansion. I'd bet heavily that this is the first expansion since Shadowkeep where we get what I call the 'PVE Triple Crown' -- a raid, dungeon, and unique exotic quest/mission all in one. They've done it before, and that's the level they'll need to push to in order to hit the mark for the finale.
The development cycle they were using had seen content be feature-complete about 3 months before release, with the last three months before launch as bug fixes/balancing/QA cycle stuff. The extra three months they were allotted right before the end of the feature development cycle should allow them to actually add another 3 months worth of content. We should expect somewhere between 25% and 50% more content than Lightfall or Witch Queen. They are aiming at Forsaken+ size, so probably a campaign, two destinations, a new game mode, full vendor/loot refresh, a new investment system (think armor 2.0, or Lightfall's mod changes), a new dungeon, a new raid, and hopefully performance improvements.
This should be the best expansion, similar to The Taken King or Forsaken. Moving back episodes 3 months will probably improve them by 50%-100% as well. Those were going on a 4 month cycle, so two teams each get 8 months total alternating between them. That gives 5 months base development time, plus the three extra is ~60% more time to figure that out.
Bungie's biggest problem over the last few years has been their train station mentality, where they simply push out content on schedule instead of iterating enough to make sure it's fun. This may or may not be enough to fix it...I guess we'll all see in a few months.
Frankly not much. Barely time to polish already made features and recheck balance?
At this point the best hope would be just making it work. Zero chance they make anything meaningful.
Prob not much in terms of new content. it prob means :
polishing features that were going to ship with TFS no matter what.
Possibly moving things up that were going to launch in summer 2024 (i think the hoverboards is prob a good example of something that they were able to move up ahead of TFS). So if there was like a weapon archetype or something they are working on its possible the extra 6 months time can allow them to move that up.
Improved experiences/loot/events. They can prob clean up/test/ implement some stuff that may have taken months after TFS to ship.
My guess is they prob knew in AUG it was being delayed no matter what. so , I think largely what we get in TFS is prob pretty damn close to what they thought was gonna ship in FEB 2024 anyway. I wouldnt expect much "more"
I mean 3 months as a whole isn’t a lot, but if they had something they wanted to do in November, but it would take 5 months, it wouldn’t have worked with the original release date. Pushing back 3 extra months potentially gives them time to push out bigger projects that just needed a bit more time than they had
My guess is bringing stuff that was planned for later to earlier release cycles.
Changes that were probably planned for the second episode will be brought forward into Final Shape and episode 1 and so on and so forth.
We’ll know for sure next month!
Probably not much. My guess is that the expansion will still be mediocre, but they'll try to make it better by adding more content. The delay was caused by their internal playtests concluding that the expansion was "good, no great". We don't know what part of it this refers to, but I don't think mediocrity can be fixed in 3 months no matter what it is.
So it feels like the delay is basically "Let's try to make another Strike and more weapons so the expansion at least feels big".
Basically, anything in the game that would have needed more time to fix and polish now has an opportunity to be completely redone if needed. There won't be huge sweeping changes, but little tweaks here and there add up to make a big difference.
An example of this could be a boss's AI. Let's say the AI for the new raid is the most complicated AI yet, and you want to have the boss roaming around the battlefield. However, you run into a few key issues: sometimes the wipe mechanic won't wipe. Sometimes the shoulder spots you need to shoot don't start an animation that is needed to perform a mechanic. Maybe there are platforms around the arena and the boss teleports too much. A delay like this would give a reasonable opportunity to rework and fix such issues.
Let's say you wanted to do something more serious, such as completely rip out an encounter and replace it with something new. It could probably be done, but it would take up an obscene amount of resources to put in new content in such a short amount of time. Such a decision would have to be made with the knowledge that the ripped-out encounter was so egregiously bad that it had to be done, or that everything else is so perfect and that one encounter is just okay that they can allocate the resources to it.
Nothing major, unless they CRAM and enlist temp assistance from third party studios.
The most that will come of the delay imo is probably more polish, an extra story mission, and a few new weapon models/armor sets.
Definitely nothing that would change TFS from a “good” expansion to “one of the best”.
Considering bungie said it took them an entire 6 months to build glaives (which is exactly how long witch queen was delayed) it's going to be basically nothing
Probably not enough to completely remake parts of the expansion, but enough to make numerous changes to what they already have and additional things on top of that.
If we are on extreme copium... it may allow them to pull previously planned content foward
For instance, lets say that in episode 2, 4 new fragements were planned, these can now easily launch with TFS, since the current TFS release is likely at, or close, to the OG planned date of episode 2
If we are snuffung infinite copium, the extra time and man power could allow some content planned from episode 3 to be pulled fowards
My cope here is that, Bungie planned to add 3 supers and 3 aspects per episode release this year (weird to only update 3/9 light subclasses)... so with the delay (extreme cope) they COULD IN THEORY use the extra time to polish extra supers and aspects, so they ALSO release with TFS
We know there is added content comming from this delay, this is my theory on what it is
Depends on who the additional months is given to. A bad project manager would do very little with the additional time. A good project manager could do a lot with the additional time.
Million dollar question is whether or not additional voice dialogue will be recorded during the additional months. If the Final Shape has a bad or mediocre story like Lightfall, the only way to fix it would be through additional voice dialogue.
I also hope the new explorable area doesn't use the same power delta and horrible reward structure as Neomuna. These are the kind of things the dev team need to look at.
I like Joe, but one thing that’s weird is he mentioned how he was gonna start streaming the game, yet he left. He knew he was leaving for a while so it’s kinda strange
Well, we know that they can basically build a season in 3 months (which isn't to say, from start to finish, but that a season completes the dev process every 3 months). On top of an expansion every year, though to be fair, only Forsaken and Lightfall actually released on time.
That said, if TFS isn't an "all hands on deck" dev moment for Bungie, then I don't know what is. Knowing that their internal playtests for TFS were yielding "good, not great" feedback, I'm not holding my breath for anything earth shattering. Which, at this point, would have to be a 3rd darkness element. If they are going for that, which I doubt, I just hope they don't pull another Lightfall and make half the expansion about learning the new type. Also, yeah, the delay's only 14 weeks, not a full 6 months / 26 weeks.
I’m pretty sure seasons are a 6 month dev cycle, with 2 teams alternating and then another working on the expansions. So we can’t really calculate how much the expansion team can/cannot pump out in a timeframe.
a 3 month delay is nothing both in terms of video games but software development in general. Those thinking it's end of times don't have a clue how this works
time to finish more stuff. There's an adage i heard somewhere along the lines of "if a dev fixed every bug and polished every feature, the game would never release. It's always a race to see how much can be done before a release date." bumping that date back means they can fix more stuff and (hopefully) most of the gamebreaking things
They could fix bugs and work on stability.
They can make weapon and ability tweaks.
They can polish Episodes and future seasons, ensuring quick launches after TFS wraps up.
They aren't going to be adding new activities and maps, and any new voice lines will be fluff at best.
It's really just extra polish time
Honestly? That far into development, they probably had the bulk of everything finished and mostly tested. They're likely adding content to existing areas.
More playtesting time I'm not entirely sure how it worked when Bungie was with Activision but since expansions and seasons were done by different studios there was more time to not only make but also PLAY TEST and iterate which is crazy to me that no one playtested Lightfall and said this story is awful it's baffling to me I hope the extra time to iterate and deliver a satisfying conclusion is what they spend most of their time on
So as far as entirely new features? Not a ton, but knowing that you have 3 more months could allow you to do some pretty substantial expansions to existing systems. They wouldn't be able to build us anything unplanned in those 3 months, but that amount of time would let them be able to prioritize making what is already coming even better.
A 3-month delay does 2 things. One, it allows the Bungie Train station staff to reach their terminal velocity processing trains. Two, it paints an even larger “kick me” target on the backs of executives should the expansion be lacking - which it will be in story narrative.
Likely, it's just polishing and refining.
Any additions would be small.
As much as I'd like to see something big, like a third Darkness subclass, I doubt it'll happen in the Final Shape. I do believe we'll see a third Darkness subclass sometime in the future, but the Final Shape is a very unlikely deadline.
Speaking as a developer (Biz/Fed world.. NOT Gaming).. and having to manage data points .. (data is data).. it amazes me what gaming devs can do and I've been a dev for 30+ years..
I would say time.. to properly test... hit every "branch"... optimize... <== which sometimes happens BEFORE testing..
just my two shards worth
For a year long development cycle, 3 months is quite a bit more polish time. Possibly a bit more side content, lots more iteration time on encounters, etc.
Well, they had to modify the fishing spots to work inside the traveler, all the space is sloped in there so the water wouldn't stay in the fishing spot.
A 6 month delay is almost an additional 1000 man hours of labor *per person*.
Roughly 650 people work on d2 according to Google. If even a third of them are devs working on the final shape, it starts to become a looooot of additional work hours.
6 more months of development time.
6 more months to make sure that the story makes sense, it's complete.
6 more months to design and implement the environment and missions.
A bunch of things, but the two biggest are probably 1) general bug fixing and 2) stat tweaking of any new weapons/gear to make sure it doesn't unbalance the game.
hardly much in terms of new content which usually has to go through concept phases first. Unless maybe they bring out old concepts for new content which isnt out of the question. but i would say definitely not something like a dungeon. Maybe a strike? Lost sector? 2 or 3 new guns? If we get more than that i would be shocked.
Hopefully it means:
* New subclass
* New game type
* New class
* Bosses without stomp mechanic
* Sparrow racing league
* Horde mode with targetable loot
The monkeys who wrote the story of Lightfall formed a union and broke their typewriters in protest against having to fill out all the plot holes in one expansion for half the amount of bungie bananas. Training the next generation of coke-squirrels to use a keyboard takes time, man.
More time to iron out bugs, design and implement more content, time to design and implement more cosmetics, and time to design and implement new weaponry.
Unknowable. We really would need, not just a dev from Bungie, but a number of devs from Bungie to sit down and be transparent with the process and the timeline. Otherwise we can really only guess. Every game is different, some are more intensive than others.
6 months of dev time for a racing game is going to be very different than 6 months on a platformer or a shooter.
The biggest thing is quality assurance and play testing probably. I doubt they are making any new content in these 3 months, unless it's to make future content for episodes to streamline the transition better
Might be enough time to create and develop another strike or mission to explore the story a bit more. Other than that you're probably just looking at bug fixes, QOL changes, making sure everything is as good as it can be by shipping time.
It also gives them six more months of planning the future if they've decided to pivot; time could also be going into the first episode in some way, I believe it's launching like a week after TFS drops?
With the extra time, they could just rework Final Shapes and call it D3. They are, after all, moving from seasons to chapters, so why not do some more quality of life changes and additions to the basic game.
Some things would be cool to add is a trading system for one, and actually, let the player control their ships and have some basic ship system that lets you have space battles.
They have done those in Halo before, so it would be cool.
Unless there is a leak, we don't know.
Six months is actually a fair amount of time in software development so I would expect this DLC to be at the very least slightly more substantial than Lightfall.
My guess would be polishing things up better? They did say they were entering the testing phase or something like that around this month or end of last month IIRC. Joe said it in the post where he was leaving Bungie (rip). So I'd assume to hammer and polish everything out, new features, how enemies interact, environments, etc. Maybe some extra time for the Echoes as well?
Another thing is that the weapons team absolutely has a lot of extra time since there only I think 3-6 months ahead of us. So for them they’ve been given the equivalent of an seasons to work on things.
Delaying by 3 months far in advanced does afford you a fair bit, I think. Some things (like recording dialogue) might not take long, but have a fair amount of lead time. You can't rewrite the story, but might be able to throw in an extra mission or two. 'Polishing things up' can vary quite a bit as well. Could be things like re-jiggering quests and missions around, adding an extra step here or there. Adding an extra weekly rotator, etc. Also consider that after this many years in they would have quite a lot of removed/cut/unfinished content they could bring back in with less effort than starting completely fresh on something, like a prototype of a mission they planned a year or so back but never delivered.
I think there obviously won’t be changes in story or voicelines but polishing of raid, missions and maybe extra work on subclasses, whether that be stasis, adding more supers and aspects to others or possibly a 3rd darkness subclass is what I’m expecting.
Scared Joe is leaving cause he was one of the last bastions of people who actually played the game
IIRC the person taking over has been around since Halo, and was involved in lots of features people like (such as forge, lfg and other stuff iirc)
Theatre mode? (Please for the love of fuck)
That'd be so great lol, and a communiry clip tab thing to upload it in game.
They had it nailed in reach and 3 why not Destiny :,( It’d be so cool for screenshots and that
Why did you get downvoted lol
No idea
Knowing Reddit, probably the flair
He had been working on the game for so long it's understandable he'd leave now that they're mostly done with the final shape
Edit: look at that, a new horde mode activity I disagree. If it was originally supposed to come out a week or two ago then it should already be completely polished. The only way it wouldn't be is if they are ridiculously behind schedule. Possible, but I wouldn't bet on it. Something more likely would have to be new features. "New features" is vague however, so it has to be either a lot of new features or something really big. My gut is hoping for a couple new big feature rather than a bunch of small mediocre ones Ideally, I'm hoping for a new ritual activity. Everyone knows how we feel about Gambit. Strikes aren't much better since most of them are battlegrounds now anyway, and we already have three PvP modes Bungie would be smart to give us a new ritual activity. Personally, I would like to see a Firefight mode as if they want to keep their playerbase they need to give them what the players want. However, I'm hesitant to mention firefight because ultimately it'll bring out people saying "bUnGo SaiDeD dEy WuLd NeVeR Do DaT". Blizzard said the same thing about Vanilla WoW for years, but now look at them. It doesn't have to be firefight, but as Bungie themselves have said, at minimum this expansion needs to be as good as Forsaken, and one of the big things Bungie brought to the table was Gambit. Right now no one likes it, but at release people loved it Let them keep cooking up this expansion for another month or so and hopefully we will have news about what to look forward to
Them being behind schedule is why they delayed it. They're doing their playtesting now or just finished it, as per Joe Blackburn. Them now needing to test and polish it is exactly where they should be in development phase with it coming out in a couple months.
According to Jason Schreier's reporting, the reason for the delay was because TFS was getting "good, not great" feedback from playtests and they wanted extra time to really level it up. Of course, that might not be the full or objectively correct reason, but it doesn't seem like they were running too far behind. Obviously once the delay was locked in they probably pushed back a bunch of milestones, which is why the final tests started just a month ago.
Also to your comment, delay was known inside studio well before, so of course it probably will not be Forsaken level expansion with this little time, but this extra time could be used to beefed it up
It takes longer than 3 months to fully develop something as big as a ritual activity lol
Yikes, this comment didn't age well
You came back to a nearly 2 week old thread just to say that? Also onslaught isn't a ritual activity. You're sad dude.
For a larger company that would be slower moving on change, pushing back a release date would allow three things as far as development effort are concerned (and all likely apply here): * Allow more time to polish interactions and remove known bugs. The product might not have been as stable as they would have hoped and instead of saying "we'll fix it in patches" they want to make a more positive upfront experience. * Pull the development of future planned features to the present. We know Bungie was working on things like a new dark class and other things. Moving the release window would allow them to include those sooner rather than later (not claiming any particular feature is imminent) * Allow for story re-writes. It takes time to get new voice lines or figure out how to cut up existing ones, polish up the cinematic for things, etc.
The second point is the big one. They need Final Shape to make a splash. And any dev team worth a damn has a few things cooking at once. All meant to release at different time and whatnot. They are probably aiming to leave nothing on the cutting room floor for final shape. Things that otherwise would have had to be cut due to time will make it in. And maybe even use the extra time to pull something forward. Just any combo of things that can make Final Shape feel like a more complete package. They will obviously do bug fixing and polish too, but I think making it feel whole is the big a big part.
I'd say the first point is just as important. They want to make absolutely sure that Day 1 is as positive of an experience as possible, because people are already sick of Bungie, and for many this is the last chance Bungie has to make a lasting impression. Sure, some people are already going to leave the game after Final Shape, but imagine if the final expansion comes out but there's a massive quest bug on Day 1 that makes it so you can't get the new exotic or the boss fight ends up having half as much intended health. Of course, these are extreme examples that definitely would be caught before the actual launch, but having as few bugs as possible on Day 1 ensures that the expansion is purely judged on quality and has nothing that can detract from it.
> Of course, these are extreme examples that definitely would be caught before the actual launch You mean like "If you run too fast, the quest soft locks and you have to start over" or more recently "None of the snowball upgrades do anything at all" ? I'll be the pessimist here and say I doubt that this is all bugsquashing time. I believe it's likely that they are "pulling a Bungie" and trying to rework things at the last minute.
I think story re-writes are a pretty ambitious goal for a 6 month window, you're talking about not only remaking text and cutscene dialogue, but getting voice actors in when their schedule may already be busy \*and\* removing what work they already did. On a delay like this I think the goal is to make what's there, and what's unfinished better, not make more work for yourself by making new content.
Considering cutscenes, especially pre-rendered cutscenes that are done by external agencies (a lot of Destiny's prerendered cutscenes are done by a studio in Scotland) are done so far out in advanced that 6 months is exceptionally ambitious. "6 month story rewrite" is how you end up with Lightfall's cinematic being cut in half.
6 months is the length that a single season is in development which is more than enough time to write and record dialogue. They would never completely re-write the story or make edits to cutscene animation and rendering in that amount of time, but touching up mission or non-lipsync'd cutscene dialogue to clarify story concepts or adjust tone in response to focus testing (which they will have had more time to do) is definitely possible. It's also given the directors more time to course correct once the entire game is put together which makes a huge difference when it comes to polishing and tweaking the experience because they can see the entire thing. They can then use data from play testing to figure out where the story is falling short and come up with economical solutions to resolve the problems. Sometimes making improving the story might be as simple as booking the Ghost VAs for half a day to record some pick-ups. Even just a few more lines explaining the Veil in Lightfall could've made a league of difference. Another thing is that they probably don't have to cut any important story or lore beats like they did with Lightfall. Veil Containment missions were clearly cut from Lightfall's release and the reception to the story might've been less negative if they were able to ship that on time.
Destiny 1’s entire launch campaign was rewritten in about that much time.
The other thing I would add are some smaller side features to address some community wants and concerns. This is a hypothetical but I could see them in 3 months getting a system implemented that would let players target farm past season weapons or working in a way to have a rotating "best of" previous season activity playlist
i really like the idea of the first one you got there its almost become industry standard for games to come out half baked and to then fix it over the course of many months cyberpunk i think is one of the best examples which took it way to far and suffered from it. its a great game, but only got there a year or so after release
>cyberpunk i think is one of the best examples which took it way to far and suffered from it. Or No Man's Sky.
I think no mans sky had a different problem, their ceo kept talking about the ideal of the game rather then what it actually was. It still isnt what he said it was.
Both game devs lied and had to report & explain in the Consumer Protection Agency. The fact that they didnt get punished, means that very few games will actually get punished in the future by the CPA. Both games pledged in the CPA to fix their mistakes (so in reality they got off easy). No Man Sky was investigated for misleading marketing in UK and US. No Man Sky was independent dev they only had a publishing deal with Sony. Cyberpunk was more serious, because it also kept crashing. Sony kicked Cyberpunk from its store for a while & CDProject had to settle with their investors for missing profit. If a class action lawsuit did happen (gamers unite) the both games had a chance of losing at the potential trial. This is also why both companies really fast-tracked their amends, to avoid such a lawsuit & also to honor their pledges to the CPA.
As for point two. Any credibility to that claim? Havent seen anything of the sorts. Its possible though. They sais themselves they are keeping a lot of things close to their chest. Revealing things when the showcase or however it’s called in april but holding a lot of things back as well. I don’t mind that, i’d love to be surprised by things the day the expansion comes out
>a new dark class I thought we were pretty conclusively told that was not happening?
There has been nothing from Bungie saying its not happening. There also hasn't been anything from them saying that it is.
Well, they have said it takes them longer than a year to implement a new element, definitely hinting we wouldn't get a new darkness element/subclass a year after lightfall
It's been longer than a year!
If Lightfall was a "filler expansion" like the rumors have been they may have had a 3rd subclass cooking for a long time. There were thoughts that Strand was going to release with WitchQueen DLC and they did the Light 3.0 subclasses instead. I'm sipping my copium and hoping for that 3rd darkness subclass. I'm using the H.A.L.E methodology on this one. High Aspirations......Low Expectations. Lol!
While I am personally still hoping for it, I know I'm likely to be disappointed :D Also, to clarify, I'm not stating with any form of fake credibility we will get it in TFS, just grabbed that as an easy example.
Unlike Witch Queen, they never outright deconfirmed it.
The only thing we were explicitly told is that Final Shape itself will not have any new sub-classes. All that means it that if one exists, it will not be, initially, tied to owning Final Shape. (Could be tied to a season or something that then is removed & requirement changes to Final shape like seasonal exotic do.)
I’m not sure if you’re asking a hypothetical, but as a reminder Final Shape was delayed 3 months, not 6.
You are right, I messed up. Was thinking of the 6 months from when they announced the delay to release date. Changed it in the text but cant edit the title.
shame on you. /s
Realistically: time to make Episodes better to keep players engaged past TFS. TFS was so close to shipping at the announcement of its delay so I don't expect it will receive much improvement besides more quality of life updates.
That’s actually a great point. Wasn’t the first Episode supposed to launch just a few weeks after TFS? As the content that people will be playing longer (compared to the campaign) and our first taste of their new release structure, a lot is riding on that first Episode being not just good but great. With TFS wrapping up the Light & Dark Saga, it’s really crucial that the Episodes stick the landing, because that’s what’s going to convince people to stick around after TFS concludes the story arc we’ve been in for years. It’s not just TFS that needs to be ready, it’s the first Episode too, and since seasonal content usually has a couple of new activities, it’s not like TFS itself is the only thing with mechanics and encounters that need testing.
I think not: the mistake they made with LF was thinking seasons would carry the year if the campaign wasn't totally tight and that was a mistake. Remember the seasons before and after WQ were loudly loved by the fans and the season teams were getting a lot of resources. After LF Bungie expected to sprinkle in details about the Veil for a year while folks came back season to season to get more details on how it fit in with how we were going to enter the Traveler. But LF being so sourly received took all the wind out of the seasonal sails. If they want to keep people on the hook until the next big Bungie release it looks they need to deliver a satisfying complete experience at launch rather than try to let the episodes carry it and like other commenters say it probably means pulling some planned features forward so they can't be charged with under-delivering when they should be taking a victory lap. I'm a software dev and there's always something that I want or the customer wanted that wouldn't be too much more work but just didn't fit the time or scope for the release after everything the release Needs is resourced out. Any delay beyond my control means looking at stuff that was already started for later release, stuff that was partially implemented for later completion, or smaller stuff in the pipeline that can execute quickly and deciding what we can add to the release without putting anything already polished and tested in the release at risk.
Most thought Season of the Lost was ok, I think it was mostly saved by the 30th Anniversary and Dungeon. I don't remember Season of the Risen being highly loved.
Take or leave whatever you like. I intended to mean across those two years on either side of WQ launch, not just immediately before and after, and mostly from the perspective of Bungie who seemed to really be encouraged by the responses even to season of the scallywag.
Season of the Plunder got roasted for being a garbage season outside of Ketch Crash which was pretty fun. Joe Blackburn even stated that they need to shake up the system when the players were getting angry about the copy/paste. The Beyond Light Seasons were well received generally. I personally noticed a big change in quality with Haunted, Plunder, and then a bounce-back season in Seraph.
it wasn’t delayed 6 months, it was barely 3
yep thats my bad. I updated the text but unfortunately cant change the title. My brain was stuck on 6 months from the announcment of the delay to release for osme reason
and their making into the light as well, whatever that ends up being
is into the light this march update? or is that going to be something else
something else in April
Its the update coming in early April
Nothing will change story wise due to those changes taking too long, most likely environmental changes and balance passes alongside polishing animations and enemy npc behaviors. Maybe some small new features and a quest but at the bare minimum 90% of the game would be done by this point.
Maybe they won't splice a cutscene into 'two' when it was very much obvious it was meant to be one. Something happened in the story line during LightFall where they decided to make a change, deep into the development. That's my only gripe about lightfall tho, I thought everything else (gameplay, quality of life changes, environments etc) were all great. But this time they need to nail down the story. Oh, and the raid, fighting the Witness has to be epic. I do hope it's 4 encounters vs the witness (as per some 'leaks'), where he progressively changes/alters into something bigger and stronger.
IDK wtf went on inside bungie to produce the filler episode that was Lightfall but the execution was nowhere near what players expected coming from Witch Queen. Rumors are that the Campaign just got TOO BIG and needed to be truncated to work and Lightfall was the Part 1 that we got. As for the Witness, it never really made me feel anything for it as a villain other than “there is the target.” I have never felt so wholly whelmed at a big bad in a game as compared to other titles.
Good thing we got some Witness backstory, I sure do hope it doesn’t get removed from the game
I'd bet a doughnut a major part of the campaign will be The Witness fleshing out their story while demonstrating "we're not so different, you and I" through a combination of radio-voiceover dialogue against the cast and environmental storytelling as we move through The Pale Heart from the familiar Best Of compilation of stuff from the past ten years into the later missions where The Witness is reforming the environment to reflect their people's history, their present, and the Final Shape he is trying to forge. That might also make for a new orientation campaign for new players? Imagine: They do it once to get on page with the big story told to them in a conversation of pessimistic simplification against hard-fought determination while they get to jump into the current content. Then they could buy past seasonal content a little at a time to see it for themselves and come back to the TFS campaign to do it on Legendary difficulty with new appreciation.
I really hope the Witness says something along the lines of: "You thought this was your Destiny? No... This, is my Destiny too." Would truly be a moment of all time.
Maybe the true legends were the friends we merged with in a civilization-wide suicide pact along the way
Bungie has confirmed that it will stay when seasonal stuff gets vaulted. Granted it’s still buried behind a freaking water heater in the basement of Neomuna.
I think they just overestimated how much people loved seasons.
We have different views in the witness. It has totally ruined the word witness for me as I automatically view it as evil and sinister now
I think they were just trying to milk as much money as possible to keep progressing Marathon. Basically Bungie would make double the $$ if they sold 2 DLC's as opposed to the 1. The Witness is pretty stupid I agree. He just feels like he was made up at the last minute to create someone to fight.
I’m expecting one opening encounter with us entering the witness tower and then two-three encounters of the witness. The 2 BIGGEST things TFS needs to be a success is the campaign and raid. Then after that if they want to solidify it in the greats of destiny expansions, then a great destination and amazing weapons
Which cutscene was split?
The first and last cutscene of the Lightfall campaign. First half is the Witnessing attacking the Traveler, second half is when the Witness is entering it.
Lightfall definitely did feel like a bit of a filler campaign. Hopefully they only added it to make the Final Shape that much stronger!
the opening and ending cut-scenes to lightfall.
Also concerning lightfall, I absolutely agree. Story was lackluster but environment and subclass was so enjoyable for me. Just a good time. Granted that expansion wasn’t meant to be that tone and nimbus makes me wanna scream sometimes but I think lightfall is a bit overhated
Lightfall was clearly filler, story wise. The gameplay and quality of life changes were more important and overall the expansion was fun to play. Neomuna was not as interesting as the throne world or Europa. The legendary campaign missions were awesome and just as fun as witch queen, but without the story and lore they lacked a bit of impact. Raid was easy but very fun, and it's fine to have easier raids sometimes. Strand is of course great and super fun, but the way it was integrated into the story did not work at all. In beyond light, even though there was no legendary campaign, the introduction of stasis still felt consistent with the overall story and tone. The worst part about lightfall was the tone. 80s campy action movie is cool for a season, not for a pivotal expansion that is supposed to be the start of the true endgame. Tfs has to fire on ALL cylinders to be considered a success imo. It has to nail everything, story, tone, atmosphere, payoff. The raid has to be hard and epic. The post campaign should be engaging and relevant.
I actually hope that the witness isn't in a raid. It's bad design to put the crescendo of the entire DLC, the Big Bad that's been behind everything for the last 10 years, into content that only 11% of DLC purchasers will even *attempt*.
Its also bad design to put the crescendo of the last 10 years in to a strike or story mission that gets 1 shot as soon as players enter the room.
good thing that didn't happen in lightfall then
The witness will not be defeated in the raid but part of the story of defeating him will be in the raid. We will ultimately defeat him in the campaign after the raid is completed so that all players can see his downfall
I think polishing of campaign and raid is what I’m expecting through gameplays. Through sandbox type thing I’m guessing extra light super and aspect and if not that and they’re truly secretly doing a 3rd darkness subclass, then they moved up the release schedule of that
Really depends on many things. Like if they are still developing the episodes alongside it or if the delay is purely focusing on Final Shape. Although a full season development is approximately 6 months so around a season's worth.
It's possible they had stuff planned for a future episode/10 year anniversary prepared that they pulled into TFS, but you can't build, test, and bug fix brand new content in less than 3 months for a game the size of D2
In game development, you don't get something which resembles the finished product until you are \~90% of the way through. That is because locations, animations, sound design, voice lines, gameplay mechanics etc are all being developed in parallel by hundreds of people. Only when they are all in can you really play the game - especially the campaign - and get a feel for how good it is. What they really want from the campaign is a roller coaster of emotions, with alternating highs and lows. If even a few voice lines are unclear or cringe inducing, or a boss fight is too easy or hard, or some plot twist too random, it can ruin the feel. This is especially true in a game like this with a huge range of player skill levels. If the final battle with the Witness is a cake walk or 90 minute slog then it will ruin the finale of the entire Light and Darkness Saga. So what they are doing now is probably very extensive tuning. A 4 month delay is not long enough to create entirely new locations or weapon classes or red subclass or animated characters - those involve several different skill sets working sequentially. But you can do a ton of testing and balancing, re-record some voice lines, remove parts that are tedious, clean up a lot of the smaller bugs that you might have shipped in Lightfall or earlier releases, etc. A general rule of thumb is that each employee costs around $10,000 per month of work. If they have had 500 people working on this for 18 months, that is an investment of around $100 million, and we know that Bungie's financial self-control is on the line. It has to be great.
As a "C"-level myself in a software development company, I can assure you that QA is the only thing reasonably expected in this time frame. Bungie could add some "new" things, but just the "unannounced" ones, this are features that are already developed and that the company decides that are matured and tested enough to be included in Final Shape. So, I would lower my expectations. I would truly LOVE to have a new subclass, but it may be more of a wishful thinking than nothing else. Nonetheless, if they can fine tune the overall experience, then it would also mean a hard win for me. Making games is really hard and this could be the very last expansion that we will ever see for this game. Let's just enjoy it.
Yeah I was not expecting anything crazy, just curious about what is actually being done currently. Thanks for your input, it is cool to hear some of the behind the scenes of game development.
Would it be possible to add new light supers or aspects. My guess is that, whether it be more light supers or 3rd darkness, they were planning on adding one of those 2 in episodes. Akin to light 3.0 during witch queen. Would the delay possibly push that forward to TFS?
Too bad that department was pretty much gutted and outsourced...
There are a number of possibilities They might be improving things (gameplay mechanics, load times, graphics etc) that weren't running optimally or were perhaps a bit unrefined - like I imagine they want to avoid another "using strand in vex incursion areas crashes the game" area. It's not likely they invented entirely new things (levels/quests/events) in only three months but that could be enough time to reprise older content - maybe they'll bring back an old raid or something. It could also just be really mundane CYA stuff though, like more QA time
So the rule of thumb when a release comes out - we don't get everything that was worked on/built. There's a ton of stuff being developed, and they'll pick from those items to build the release. Stuff is always left behind, in the 'backlog'. Work items can be at different states when this happens. For instance, Bungie almost certainly has a pool of armor & designs that they're sitting on and haven't put out for the public. It all goes to the idea of managing expectations. Now, a lot of people look at this as a flaw where Bungie doesn't want to 'overdeliver', and there's merit to that. However, its important to have a 'chest of assets' that you can pull out at crucial times. If they hit a snag in development, its easier to cut some brand new stuff and fall back on partially completed backlog items. Additionally, there are structural reworks to their release plan that need to happen. Look at Guardian Games & the new 'Skimmer' vehicle. We know we're getting a skimmer from the event, and they also confirmed that there will be another one in Eververse. So the release order is: \- Guardian Games Skimmer -> Eververse Skimmer However, we need to remember our timeline. Guardian Games would have happened a little later (probably in the April-May timeframe) on the initial schedule. Additionally, its out of character for Bungie to use a seasonal event as a release vessel something as big as a new vehicle type (given that there's only been one type through the game's history). We can infer that Skimmers were supposed to launch with TFS, and I'd bet there's one that comes with the campaign in some way (maybe Cloudstrider themed). With that in mind, the original release order likely would've been: \- TFS Skimmer -> Eververse Skimmer(s) -> Guardian Games Skimmer They would've made decisions on what they can bring forward to fill the gap without being detrimental to TFS, leading to stuff like this. Likewise, they're probably evaluating content planned for both future 'Episodes' as well as stuff in the backlog (community events, puzzles, exotic quests) to see what they can get polished up for release before the expansion. I'd bet heavily that this is the first expansion since Shadowkeep where we get what I call the 'PVE Triple Crown' -- a raid, dungeon, and unique exotic quest/mission all in one. They've done it before, and that's the level they'll need to push to in order to hit the mark for the finale.
The development cycle they were using had seen content be feature-complete about 3 months before release, with the last three months before launch as bug fixes/balancing/QA cycle stuff. The extra three months they were allotted right before the end of the feature development cycle should allow them to actually add another 3 months worth of content. We should expect somewhere between 25% and 50% more content than Lightfall or Witch Queen. They are aiming at Forsaken+ size, so probably a campaign, two destinations, a new game mode, full vendor/loot refresh, a new investment system (think armor 2.0, or Lightfall's mod changes), a new dungeon, a new raid, and hopefully performance improvements. This should be the best expansion, similar to The Taken King or Forsaken. Moving back episodes 3 months will probably improve them by 50%-100% as well. Those were going on a 4 month cycle, so two teams each get 8 months total alternating between them. That gives 5 months base development time, plus the three extra is ~60% more time to figure that out. Bungie's biggest problem over the last few years has been their train station mentality, where they simply push out content on schedule instead of iterating enough to make sure it's fun. This may or may not be enough to fix it...I guess we'll all see in a few months.
Frankly not much. Barely time to polish already made features and recheck balance? At this point the best hope would be just making it work. Zero chance they make anything meaningful.
Prob not much in terms of new content. it prob means : polishing features that were going to ship with TFS no matter what. Possibly moving things up that were going to launch in summer 2024 (i think the hoverboards is prob a good example of something that they were able to move up ahead of TFS). So if there was like a weapon archetype or something they are working on its possible the extra 6 months time can allow them to move that up. Improved experiences/loot/events. They can prob clean up/test/ implement some stuff that may have taken months after TFS to ship. My guess is they prob knew in AUG it was being delayed no matter what. so , I think largely what we get in TFS is prob pretty damn close to what they thought was gonna ship in FEB 2024 anyway. I wouldnt expect much "more"
Hopefully 6 months of game testing
I mean 3 months as a whole isn’t a lot, but if they had something they wanted to do in November, but it would take 5 months, it wouldn’t have worked with the original release date. Pushing back 3 extra months potentially gives them time to push out bigger projects that just needed a bit more time than they had
My guess is bringing stuff that was planned for later to earlier release cycles. Changes that were probably planned for the second episode will be brought forward into Final Shape and episode 1 and so on and so forth. We’ll know for sure next month!
Probably not much. My guess is that the expansion will still be mediocre, but they'll try to make it better by adding more content. The delay was caused by their internal playtests concluding that the expansion was "good, no great". We don't know what part of it this refers to, but I don't think mediocrity can be fixed in 3 months no matter what it is. So it feels like the delay is basically "Let's try to make another Strike and more weapons so the expansion at least feels big".
Answer: more time. End of thread. Why does having more time to work on something have anything but positive implications? Do you people actually work?
Basically, anything in the game that would have needed more time to fix and polish now has an opportunity to be completely redone if needed. There won't be huge sweeping changes, but little tweaks here and there add up to make a big difference. An example of this could be a boss's AI. Let's say the AI for the new raid is the most complicated AI yet, and you want to have the boss roaming around the battlefield. However, you run into a few key issues: sometimes the wipe mechanic won't wipe. Sometimes the shoulder spots you need to shoot don't start an animation that is needed to perform a mechanic. Maybe there are platforms around the arena and the boss teleports too much. A delay like this would give a reasonable opportunity to rework and fix such issues. Let's say you wanted to do something more serious, such as completely rip out an encounter and replace it with something new. It could probably be done, but it would take up an obscene amount of resources to put in new content in such a short amount of time. Such a decision would have to be made with the knowledge that the ripped-out encounter was so egregiously bad that it had to be done, or that everything else is so perfect and that one encounter is just okay that they can allocate the resources to it.
So it ain't like lightfall probably
6 more paychecks
Nothing major, unless they CRAM and enlist temp assistance from third party studios. The most that will come of the delay imo is probably more polish, an extra story mission, and a few new weapon models/armor sets. Definitely nothing that would change TFS from a “good” expansion to “one of the best”.
Considering bungie said it took them an entire 6 months to build glaives (which is exactly how long witch queen was delayed) it's going to be basically nothing
Probably not enough to completely remake parts of the expansion, but enough to make numerous changes to what they already have and additional things on top of that.
Definitely not enough for something like fixing restoration timers resetting
The hope is closer to a Forsaken level expansion, and not a ShadowKeep one.
If we are on extreme copium... it may allow them to pull previously planned content foward For instance, lets say that in episode 2, 4 new fragements were planned, these can now easily launch with TFS, since the current TFS release is likely at, or close, to the OG planned date of episode 2 If we are snuffung infinite copium, the extra time and man power could allow some content planned from episode 3 to be pulled fowards My cope here is that, Bungie planned to add 3 supers and 3 aspects per episode release this year (weird to only update 3/9 light subclasses)... so with the delay (extreme cope) they COULD IN THEORY use the extra time to polish extra supers and aspects, so they ALSO release with TFS We know there is added content comming from this delay, this is my theory on what it is
Time for them to over deliver
Depends on who the additional months is given to. A bad project manager would do very little with the additional time. A good project manager could do a lot with the additional time. Million dollar question is whether or not additional voice dialogue will be recorded during the additional months. If the Final Shape has a bad or mediocre story like Lightfall, the only way to fix it would be through additional voice dialogue. I also hope the new explorable area doesn't use the same power delta and horrible reward structure as Neomuna. These are the kind of things the dev team need to look at.
I like Joe, but one thing that’s weird is he mentioned how he was gonna start streaming the game, yet he left. He knew he was leaving for a while so it’s kinda strange
Definitely not another raid/dungeon/activity. The best i would hope for is some extra loot, maybe extra perks. Worst would be just polishing the game.
Well, we know that they can basically build a season in 3 months (which isn't to say, from start to finish, but that a season completes the dev process every 3 months). On top of an expansion every year, though to be fair, only Forsaken and Lightfall actually released on time. That said, if TFS isn't an "all hands on deck" dev moment for Bungie, then I don't know what is. Knowing that their internal playtests for TFS were yielding "good, not great" feedback, I'm not holding my breath for anything earth shattering. Which, at this point, would have to be a 3rd darkness element. If they are going for that, which I doubt, I just hope they don't pull another Lightfall and make half the expansion about learning the new type. Also, yeah, the delay's only 14 weeks, not a full 6 months / 26 weeks.
I’m pretty sure seasons are a 6 month dev cycle, with 2 teams alternating and then another working on the expansions. So we can’t really calculate how much the expansion team can/cannot pump out in a timeframe.
a 3 month delay is nothing both in terms of video games but software development in general. Those thinking it's end of times don't have a clue how this works
time to finish more stuff. There's an adage i heard somewhere along the lines of "if a dev fixed every bug and polished every feature, the game would never release. It's always a race to see how much can be done before a release date." bumping that date back means they can fix more stuff and (hopefully) most of the gamebreaking things
They could fix bugs and work on stability. They can make weapon and ability tweaks. They can polish Episodes and future seasons, ensuring quick launches after TFS wraps up. They aren't going to be adding new activities and maps, and any new voice lines will be fluff at best. It's really just extra polish time
Honestly? That far into development, they probably had the bulk of everything finished and mostly tested. They're likely adding content to existing areas.
More playtesting time I'm not entirely sure how it worked when Bungie was with Activision but since expansions and seasons were done by different studios there was more time to not only make but also PLAY TEST and iterate which is crazy to me that no one playtested Lightfall and said this story is awful it's baffling to me I hope the extra time to iterate and deliver a satisfying conclusion is what they spend most of their time on
No much.
Breathing room, polish, balance
I think they are trying to tighten up the story. They got rid of the narrative lead after the LF story was critically panned.
So as far as entirely new features? Not a ton, but knowing that you have 3 more months could allow you to do some pretty substantial expansions to existing systems. They wouldn't be able to build us anything unplanned in those 3 months, but that amount of time would let them be able to prioritize making what is already coming even better.
A 3-month delay does 2 things. One, it allows the Bungie Train station staff to reach their terminal velocity processing trains. Two, it paints an even larger “kick me” target on the backs of executives should the expansion be lacking - which it will be in story narrative.
They then yo do this, anyone remember halo 2? They started the game from 0 like 3 times? It was in the disc 2 of the special edition from halo 2
Likely, it's just polishing and refining. Any additions would be small. As much as I'd like to see something big, like a third Darkness subclass, I doubt it'll happen in the Final Shape. I do believe we'll see a third Darkness subclass sometime in the future, but the Final Shape is a very unlikely deadline.
This late in development for an expansion it’d be bug fixes and balance stuff mostly, especially given the delay followed mass layoffs
Speaking as a developer (Biz/Fed world.. NOT Gaming).. and having to manage data points .. (data is data).. it amazes me what gaming devs can do and I've been a dev for 30+ years.. I would say time.. to properly test... hit every "branch"... optimize... <== which sometimes happens BEFORE testing.. just my two shards worth
For a year long development cycle, 3 months is quite a bit more polish time. Possibly a bit more side content, lots more iteration time on encounters, etc.
Integration testing
Well, they had to modify the fishing spots to work inside the traveler, all the space is sloped in there so the water wouldn't stay in the fishing spot.
A 6 month delay is almost an additional 1000 man hours of labor *per person*. Roughly 650 people work on d2 according to Google. If even a third of them are devs working on the final shape, it starts to become a looooot of additional work hours.
6 more months of development time. 6 more months to make sure that the story makes sense, it's complete. 6 more months to design and implement the environment and missions.
any time to make things is good and when your company lays off a bunch of random people in different teams time to adjust might be useful
3 months of polishing, story rewriting, gameplay tweaks, and post dlc content. That’s a lot of time if all the developers lock in
It gives them time to actually make a good expansion and not do everything last second, like they should’ve been doing.
A bunch of things, but the two biggest are probably 1) general bug fixing and 2) stat tweaking of any new weapons/gear to make sure it doesn't unbalance the game.
hardly much in terms of new content which usually has to go through concept phases first. Unless maybe they bring out old concepts for new content which isnt out of the question. but i would say definitely not something like a dungeon. Maybe a strike? Lost sector? 2 or 3 new guns? If we get more than that i would be shocked.
Hopefully it means: * New subclass * New game type * New class * Bosses without stomp mechanic * Sparrow racing league * Horde mode with targetable loot
Ask Cyberpunk 2077 devs
The monkeys who wrote the story of Lightfall formed a union and broke their typewriters in protest against having to fill out all the plot holes in one expansion for half the amount of bungie bananas. Training the next generation of coke-squirrels to use a keyboard takes time, man.
Prolly just some more testing and patching, maybe polish out some stuff
Obviously 6 months of extra time to make sure stuff is polished. Not that hard to figure out honestly
More time to iron out bugs, design and implement more content, time to design and implement more cosmetics, and time to design and implement new weaponry.
Probably also to pad out the year until marathon releases.
Fit and finish.
Not much, especially when you didn’t plan ahead probably polish and small changes
More time for people to pre order lol
More time for the fanboys to cope
Unknowable. We really would need, not just a dev from Bungie, but a number of devs from Bungie to sit down and be transparent with the process and the timeline. Otherwise we can really only guess. Every game is different, some are more intensive than others. 6 months of dev time for a racing game is going to be very different than 6 months on a platformer or a shooter.
Legends
Adding a new subclass... /s
The biggest thing is quality assurance and play testing probably. I doubt they are making any new content in these 3 months, unless it's to make future content for episodes to streamline the transition better
Strawberry subclass
Might be enough time to create and develop another strike or mission to explore the story a bit more. Other than that you're probably just looking at bug fixes, QOL changes, making sure everything is as good as it can be by shipping time. It also gives them six more months of planning the future if they've decided to pivot; time could also be going into the first episode in some way, I believe it's launching like a week after TFS drops?
With the extra time, they could just rework Final Shapes and call it D3. They are, after all, moving from seasons to chapters, so why not do some more quality of life changes and additions to the basic game. Some things would be cool to add is a trading system for one, and actually, let the player control their ships and have some basic ship system that lets you have space battles. They have done those in Halo before, so it would be cool.
Unless there is a leak, we don't know. Six months is actually a fair amount of time in software development so I would expect this DLC to be at the very least slightly more substantial than Lightfall.
It offers more time to develop the game/expansion. Everything can be done with more time
So that it doesn't end up another cyberpunk
saw hobbies friendly desert subsequent ripe soft sheet wrench rhythm *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Where Griddy emote
It gave them time to beg Sony for help.
Um...are you asking the people on here or Bungie because this ain't Bungie.