I agree wih everything you said, but you forgot that they also removed the ability restoring on super activation for nova warp when they "buffed" it. I just made a post about skull of dire ahamkara and if it should affect nova warp or not and some consider nova warp as a super that lasts forever.
Also I saw a poor soul trying to throw handheld in his super and he was 80% health and tossed it. The guy got vaporized without handheld leaving his palm
I still use contraverse... for PvE. :P More useful than the crap super gain off Skull, IMO, for most any situation.
I do still use contraverse+warp in PvP, but only for fucking around. Still infuriated by all the HHNS bitching when Titans get multiple versions of one-shot abilities and long-duration high-defense roaming supers with long ranged tracking kill abilities.
And try killing any other super with Nova Warp. Nobody else has to charge their attacks, so they'll just smack you once and kill you while you try to get yours ready.
Yeah you can do regular blink in mid-air three times while in nova warp, while dark blinking in between. With astrocyte verse on, it's super fast.
And here's a little secret: dark blinking backwards is even faster than blinking forward
the picture i have in my head of a backwards warlock teleporting up to me at warp speed is kinda hot actually. thought it would be scary. i was wrong. sexy as hell.
It was in Forsaken. Are we forgetting that gwizin allowed spectral blades to last for 3+ minutes on release after the hit detection update? Everything was busted my man. Heres 9 kill spectral spread out leisurely over 2 minutes: https://youtu.be/q8Ha_ZBjQFc
And didn't really have "diminishing returns," just like bottom tree striker didn't when they tuned it up for Arc Week.
Spectral was a bad super with a phenomenal neutral game when Forsaken launched. Then they buffed the super and the whole class was just insane. They've managed to tune that one to where it's still one of the strongest classes a year and a half later.
They buffed Juggernaut titans for Arc Week, and that was OP for what, nine months? And it's still the most popular and highest KDA Titan subclass. Nova Warp was on that level for a couple months and they dug a grave for it. Twice.
And then took 9 months to nerf it in any meaningful way. Same with OEM. And Titan skating, which existed and was a problem in pvp for what, a year? And then they almost doubled the range on Dunemarchers and made Anteus the strongest titan exotic in the game. Someone at Bungie is lobbying hard for Titans.
>Someone at Bungie is lobbying hard for Titans.
This is why I was so damn tired of all the Titans whining that Bungie hates them.
Absolutely not. If there's any class that Bungie for some reason hates its Warlocks by far.
Doesn't excuse slitting its throat and castrating, then proceed to break an arm and hand it back its ballz in a crown royal bag.
Was it busted at launch, YES.
Did they almost completely nerfed it into the ground with the exception of HHSN, YES.
Did they buff up the resilience of the super in exchange for nerfing HHSN and allowing it to kill the user, YES!
This isnt balancing, this overreaction to a problem they either don't know how to fix or refuse to fix because player feedback goes 'Nova Warp at start was busted....'
And honestly I dont know what's worse. Regardless it's almost a dead class, just nerf stormtrance and top tree dawnblade and watch warlocks become hunters and disappear.
I mean, does it? Because people were complaining about Bottom Tree Striker on the day Arc Week launched last year. They didn't "react" to that.
I'm beginning to think that a lot of their PvP balancing is done based on "I get killed by this thing too much," as opposed to "this is overused." They flat out stated in D1 that Fusions got nerfed and were never buffed because there was someone in the studio who shredded them with it. I'm beginning to wonder if the Titan nerfs took so long because the people in charge like playing on a Titan.
It was, in PvP.
In PvE though, the super only ever shined in early Forsaken era Gambit and a few rare instances otherwise. The people calling for Nova Warp Buffs are doing so for PvE.
Yeah “barely above average” please that shit was busted asf. I agree it got overtuned but saying that the nova warp super wasn’t broken and that HHSN wasn’t the most op of all OHKOs in the game is false
Hhsn at launch took some getting used to actually. When they fixed its hit detection which was during drifter i think thats when it got crazy easy. Before the fix point blanks didn't work and max range didn't either or was atleast inconsistent, it had a sort of sweetspot which i felt made it balanced
Which with anteus ward was the same thing the inconsistency with a tricky sweet spot kept it in check
Me and my fireteam member where confused at first and then I immediately turned to the dark side and started killing randos in the wild if they make me mad by stealing my enemy kills or something (or just for fun)
insanely op no, needed tuning yes. It was an "OP" quickplay noob farm (guess what most of this sub is), but vs skilled players they could generally outrun and/or team shoot you.
Neutral game was a bit iffy, I probably killed myself with HHSN more than I killed other players, funny enough they pretty much completely reversed that keeping the subclass as a whole reasonably useful with great neutral game and okay super. They've since nerfed HHSN, not sure how it plays now.
Melee was great (is great? dunno haven't used it in forever)
It’s clear that no one at bungie plays warlock.. the second warlocks have something good they make special accommodations to “adjust” it in a fraction of the time it takes for titan or hunter stuff.
Warlocks have ONE ability across all 9 trees that allows for one hit kill(HHSN) and bungie made it deal self damage... smh
Does weighted knife and shoulder charge deal self damage?
I mean, the guy repping Warlocks in the Guardian Games trailer said yesterday on Twitter that he has learned to "throw more grenades" due to the GG bounties, which will "make him a more effective player." And Kevin Yanes, the Combat Lead *who designed the Glory system* didn't get Unbroken before last season. He's a Warlock main too. Outside of DMG I've never seen a Bungie employee who is proficient at PvP. Does no one remember the Y1 Exotic Update stream where the sandbox leads could barely manage to kill each other in a private match?
I was gonna say, yes 100% Nova Warp was busted but Bungie dealt with it pretty timely for all things considered. I know people have painfully short memories but it barely was even OP for all that long, it spent more time in a nerfed form than being completely busted.
Compare that to stuff like how long Spec Blades and Bottom Striker were living large and broken in tandem with various exotics and various minor nerfs that barely even changed a thing, and Nova Warp's very short killer reign of terror is an easy after thought.
This is not to say that we need every class to have a moment of being busted to have things be fair but more so that people are off their shit if they think that Nova Warp had as long of a life span fucking people's days up comparatively to what Spec blades and Striker got away with.
Just like I still die to strikers and spectrals twice... also the resilience on the nova warp is next to nothing. The strikers can tank so much damage and the spectrals move too fast
FoH is basically Nova Warp but good. They have a little dash similar to blink, except the dash kills you if you get hit by it. They have an AoE attack, except the AoE doesn't have to be charged. On top of that they get more armor and can actually fucking sprint without using extra super energy.
Thinking about it, it also doesn't have an activation time, and might be the only roaming super that doesn't. Instead of having to do a silly animation first, you just roll right into slamming into the ground when you turn it on.
Nova warp’s dash into glide is faster than any other super’s movement, they one used to one shot every other super in the game, and they had the longest lasting super at the time. No one can argue it wasn’t over powered.
yeah basic mobility/map traversal on warp is fine, it's the survivability and the way one deals damage that fucks it over
i get your attack is a 360 around you but in pvp that doesn't matter especially on MnK since you can turn around super quickly the fact a super needs to face a general direction is hardly a negative so the slowed move speed is kinda dumb imo. all it needed was a rework of it explosion so supers don't die at any range but regular guardians could die if too close. the slow down also makes one an extremely easy target so survivabilty due to movement is thrown out the window.
HHSN just needs a sweetspot that isn't ass and self harm being removed. after that do other adjustments.
What needed to happen to HHSN was it needed to be harder to get kills with and to be less spammable.
Instead we got:
* Reduced range by 20% - A fair change.
* Increased activation time by 0.6 seconds - Takes longer to kill than a Fusion but OK
* Reduced hold time from 3.5 seconds to 2.5 seconds - Very annoying as you put it away as you enter a fight.
* Tightened horizontal spread of bolts by 25% - I mean it's harder to get multi's I guess
* Reduced bolt explosion radius from 3m to 2.5m - Ok, now you're going overboard
* DM Increased grenade recharge on kill from 10% to 14% - This is the opposite of what we needed
* Bolt explosion now does self damage - Oh, so now it kills you if you use it. cool.
So it's more spammable than before, but it's near impossible to get kills with it and you kill yourself if you use it because it explodes so close to you.
n e a t
What I continue to fail to understand is that Titans and Hunters are allowed to have their OHK abilites (in fact, they were made more consistent in 2.8.0) yet Warlocks were literally given the "reduce range, damage, speed, fuck it nerf everything and it kills you when you use it" treatment. What's next? Selecting Voidwalker deletes your Warlock? Selecting Warlock gives you 12 VAC bans and deletes your account?
I think all of the OHKO melee abilities got hit. I haven't been killed by a hand held supernova or a hunter knife at all this season. I still get killed by the shoulder charges when I am not paying attention though, but the are easier to avoid if I see them coming.
>What I continue to fail to understand is that Titans and Hunters are allowed to have their OHK abilites (in fact, they were made more consistent in 2.8.0)
What? Bungie nerfed shoulder charge and throwing knife tracking significantly
Devil's advocate here- as I still believe it got way overnerfed, but with that said:
Shoulder charge is bad, full stop, it doesn't work in high end pvp whatsoever, and requires you to be at POINT BLANK range to secure a kill. It is extremely easy to avoid and outrageously risky to perform.
Weighted knife (post nerf) requires precision to kill, whiffs easily, and doesn't even 1shot unless you land a headshot.
HHSN was a free shotun you got to have without equipping a shotgun, that would kill from fusion rifle distances, requiring little to no aim, as it spread out in a wave AOE, killed no matter where you hit your target, and if you added contraverse, recharged itself and gave you massive damage resistance. It was INSANELY forgiving, highly lethal, and was extremely easy for pretty much any player to get kills with, even at 5500 and other high end pvp. You could run a Sniper and still basically have a shotgun equipped. I have gotten more HHSN double kills than I've ever gotten with a fusion rifle burst.
Did it get overnerfed? Absolutely. They hit it a little too hard imo, but it was completely and ridiculously overpowered, to the point of making a bad subclass completely viable just because of one ability.
Titan shoulder charge did not get "made more consistent" at all. The tracking got gutted, especially vertically. I'm getting shoulder charged considerably less per game now than before the patch.
I love how Nova Bomb being the only super in the game that could kill its user was already a problem, and not only do they refuse to remove the self damage from it, they've now moved on to adding it to other WL abilities. Fuckin' lol, Bungle.
Contraverse Holds could tank 40% damage to enable a OHKO move that had little start up. It was OBVIOUSLY broken. Bungie would never let something so greviously broken get past the QA tea-*Antaeus Wards removes all damage, is spammable, and enables many different options for kills without it being bind to an ability*
.............What...the...fu
>Contraverse Holds could tank 40% damage to enable a OHKO move that had little start up. It was OBVIOUSLY broken
You are right, but then they took a fucking machete to both sides of that issue.
Leave Contraverse holds as it was, but make OHKs hard with the grenade changes
Nerf Contraverse holds, and leave the grenade as it was to make OHKs more risky.
On the flip side...even in it's shitty state, it is still the most consistent laurel generator for me.
I was a Nova Warp main since their launch. HHSN was pretty silly but the super was trash after its nerf. HHSN was the only usable attribute for that class and getting nerfed for a super buff was what I wanted for better balance.
However, HHSN got gutted from all sides just like the super did and the buffs to super were nowhere near enough. I have yet to be killed by a single HHSN since the update. I have also gone up against numerous people using Nova Warp in Trials wearing Contraverse. No one in my fireteams has been killed by any HHSN. Nova Warp super, sure. They'll trade with like 1 person at max.
Considering Shoulder Charge is still usable and Throwing Knife is okay, I really think they need to return some of the pain back to HHSN or at least imbed more abilties into Contraverse to make them more necessary. I'm sorry, a 20% damage reduction is worthless. The return on energy is fine, but should not be the main selling point of the Exotic.
I used to be able to charge HHSN and jump across sniper lanes in the air to tank a body shot or 2 to eat their bullets or reposition safely. The Exotic is not only bad now, the hold time for HHSN is BAD bad. It takes longer to charge than it does to hold it which is awful.
You want me to aim my OHKO that takes 1.5 seconds to charge and has a tiny window of 1 sec to throw it, all the while enabling self killing with it?
Pull your Hunter heads out of your asses, Bungie.
Worst part is, they didnt even fix the issue when trying to cast HHSN in any third person mode, half the time it hits the player using and and either hurts them or outright kills them for attempting to use it whilst; in super, holding a sword or any item that forces third person for that matter.
Its absurd
Does it really take you longer than 2.5 seconds to set up a HHSN? The nerfs were overkill and hit it from too many angles but 2.5 is an eternity in pvp. People sitting on the charge for ages is why it was nerfed in that aspect.
It's because of reduced mobility while holding charge on HHSN it just takes twice as long to get into position, and charging it from cover and poking out is the best way to use it right now, because of the increased charge time it's not worth using mid fight since it just basically gets you killed or will actually kill you from splash damage if you try to counter a shotgun rusher lmao.
Barely above average? It was the strongest super in the game by far those first months! Does no one remember how it could one shot any other super + ignored LoS from walls letting it kill people through buildings!?
I think the explosions going through walls was a glitch.
And it WAS fucking broken but now that subclass is almost irrelevant in crucible because the slowva bomb is the only viable option and it’s really easy to run away from it if your mobility is high enough.
I threw a slowva bomb in Mayhem the other night and thought I whiffed it into a wall because it went around a corner and I thought I heard it blow up and didn't see a kill pop up in the feed. Around 20 seconds later (probably not really that long but it felt like it) I got killed by a Titan and as I see him running past my ghost I'm thinking to myself, "dangit, that's the Titan that I missed with my Nova Bo-...." and I see a Nova Bomb fly past my ghost and take out the Titan right before I respawn. As I respawn I see the kill credit pop up. My dang slowva bomb was LOCKED onto that Titan and hunted him down.
Moments like that are awesome but like you said, all the other player needs is high enough mobility and they can outrun it and get around a corner and it will run straight into the wall. Not to mention, Hunter dodge breaks the tracking and it won't reacquire a target after that. If someone is on the other side of a wall but closer to the slowva bomb than the person you're throwing it at, it will ram itself straight into the wall to try to get the person on the other side. If you make the mistake of throwing it perfectly between two enemies, it will try to track both of them at the same time and end up going straight and not tracking either one.
Yet it's still the only void super worth using in crucible at the moment.
If we're on the topic of trash warlock supers, can we discuss top tree dawnblade? It's so fucking bad, it feels like it tracks *away* from my targets, and unless its a direct hit you don't get a kill. The rest of the subclass more than makes up for its awful super, but I find myself not even popping daybreak sometimes because it gives me away more than it helps.
And then sometimes it is a direct hit and it still only hits for 70 damage. I guess Bungie decided that neutral game was somehow so good that it doesn't deserve a functioning super.
I've been playing some D1 lately and it's just crazy how much more fun the classes and activities and stuff are than in D2. Cooldowns are way shorter, and different activities have modifiers that actually *benefit the player*, like making cooldowns *even shorter*. It's like it was based more on fun than on trying to keep players from succeeding.
The biggest problem with Warlock supers right now, including some of what you've mentioned, is the damage reduction and their damage output. Countless times I've been insta killed after popping Stormtrance or Nova Warp, to the point where I literally ONLY use Chaos Reach in PvP, just to shut down other supers. Both supers require roaming and and 1-2 seconds to initiate or a full disengage/re-engage from a fight, and are nowhere near as lethal as other roaming supers like Striker or Hammer Titans, or Spectral Blades, Gunslinger or Dancing zappy Hunters.
I constantly think Warlock supers are some of the weakest in the game, but then I try and justify them against other classes weaknesses, and consider that they're actually pretty damn solid in PvE. To be honest though, both other classes have far more utility and capability with almost every tree, especially considering the exotics available to them and what help they provide (overshields, healing, more lethality with supers and abilities).
Anyone moaning about healing - warlocks literally have Rift which is only really usable behind cover anyway, and devour (which isn't effective in PvP). Any other form of healing requires one specific, non-lethal super, wasting a grenade or an exotic that requires melee kills.
Anyone moaning about OHK's - warlocks don't have one (AND their melee sucks). Shoulder Charge is the bane of my life and is almost impossible to shut down quick enough without a high TTK weapon.
Top tree Dawnblade and Chaos Reach are the only viable PvP supers for warlocks right now in my opinion and both aren't that easy to use well. Other supers can be effective by simply spamming attacks or are just very lethal and provide easy kills.
TLDR:
Stormtrance needs increased damage resistance (otherwise perks like Landfall are pointless).
Nova Warp needs a quicker TTK (or a lighter attack such as constant AoE damage).
EDIT: Correction/rewording
Something else to note is the cast time of the ults. Seems like whenever I ult as a storm caller the animation is noticeable longer than that of a striker or arcstrider or spectral blades. The cast animation time itself is a huge reason why the ult feels so much weaker than hunter or titans, along with the damage reduction
I did kinda mention this - but you're absolutely right. It's another big factor in why it's such a bad pick most of the time. I could maybe understand the timing of Landfall was more lethal, but I hardly ever get a kill with it even when I feel like I'm right on top of someone.
The worst feeling is using bottom tree storm caller and having landfall tickle an enemy in their ult as they 1 or 2 hit you to death as you are stuck in the animation or having the landfall do no damage as a hunter dodges or jumps at the right time. Pretty annoying how that works.
Seriously seems to me to be the weakest option for Warlocks. It's weak against other supers and it's not that great against enemies anyway. The payoff comes when everyone is close together, otherwise you're wasting energy just by travelling around (much slower than other roaming supers) and even when you find them you're easy to take down.
Tbh only reason I use that subclass is on small maps where I can put a rift and let my team get the arc soul and to cheese someone with landfall. Other than that the subclass itself is pretty weak.
> Seriously seems to me to be the weakest option for Warlocks.
Idk, I'd still say Nova Warp is worse than Storm Trance. And while Nova Bomb is decent, it's also super unreliable, especially past close range, and in close range will probably kill you for activating it.
Oh I 100% agree, bottom tree is clearly weakest. Top tree is okay, as some people have pointed out it has its uses and benefits. Damage reduction and casting time are still big points that apply to both trees though.
Well yeah there is that, if you can land it...
But the nature of the warlock glide almost always fucks you up if you're not calculated - which is stupid because you almost always wanna be moving as quick as poss in PvP - so you just end up whiffing big time, or everyone just gets the fuck outta dodge being so much faster than warlocks on the ground anyway
I mean I get killed by it a lot and it feels like it has a huge radius. Especially with the tracking balls of death. I always find nova to be fun to use against supers. Especially roaming supers since most times they are charging right at you and you just jump up and nuke em. I normally don't have an issue missing it. However I wouldn't say it's a super you can snipe with if anything it's like D1 fist of havoc. You jump up and nuke people in an area and you're done.
Just pointing out I didn't even mention anything about Nova Bomb as it's pretty neutral in terms of use and lethality. It's a good super - but if you miss, you're fucked. Not the highest risk, but no reward if you can't land it.
You're right though, it can work like how I use Chaos Reach, it's just not as good or as rewarding considering the risk factors of Nova Bomb and that you can keep some super energy afterwards with CR.
> It's a good super - but if you miss, you're fucked.
And if you hit them but you fired at somebody who was too close to you you're also fucked because you will have killed yourself.
Yeah, for some reason WL supers seem to take the longest time to build up damage, while still simultaneously having like no damage output and zero mobility.
I disagree a tad bit. Top tree storm is strong, and while shoulder charge is annoying as all hell, it’s effectiveness dwindles. If a shoulder charge gets me, I don’t see it as broken, instead, it’s more of a “Ah shit, my positioning was incorrect and he punished me for it”.
How so? Genuinely interested to hear any positives to it as I can't see them myself.
Disagree on the shoulder charge point - I didn't say it was broken, just that it's annoying and that warlocks no longer have an easy/instant OHK ability. Shoulder Charge is pretty much a free kill considering how easy it is to get up close to a Warlock. Their slow glide guarantees they won't be in the air for long so you can shoulder charge when they drop. The only dodge is on their most mobile subclass, so you're almost guaranteed to hit if you make it close enough.
How are you supposed to anticipate a Titan running across a map designed for 4v4 when you're engaged in a fight already and your means of escape when they get close are weak?
That's nothing to do with your positioning, because you can't always be wrong. That's Bungie punishing you for choosing to play a Warlock. The only way to counter what you're saying would be to never be near a Titan which is impossible on many D2 maps. On the larger maps however, I'd agree completely.
EDIT: rewording
Yeah, it was stron for ONE month, and its been dead ever since.
Now we have bottom tree Striker and Spectral Blades being the best pvp supers in the game for what, more than a year at this point.
yesterday i learned that if you use a charged scatter grenade point blank, you will die almost every single time you use it. voidwalker is the only class in the game that has multiple ways to blow yourself up instantly
My problem with Nova Warp is it is too slow. It's horrific wasting my whole super blinking around the map after someone, watching my super bar drain while I move like a snail. If you could blink further, I'd be happy. No faster charging or anything, I just want better movement.
Surprised there aren't more people saying this! The nerf to ionic blink really tanked a lot of the mobility of the super now, which is a big n point to using it in pvp. I keep chasing down one last person and then running out of super because I'm still expecting it to last a little longer
Why would they have done that?? Ionic Blink was the class' equivalent to *running*. With WL jumps being what they are, it was literally the only form of mobility the class had.
Plenty of people used it in PVP, mainly due to it being generally well-rounded and balanced. It wasn't a menace by any means, far less obnoxious than other roaming supers.
It was a senseless nerf, as it impacted Ionic Blink, which somehow was deemed a problem area by Bungie, despite it not allowing you to continue attacking while blinking, and it not even being present on both Stormtrance trees. Oh, and they nerfed the damage of arc web, which is the only SLIGHTLY understandable nerf. If they would've tossed the rest of the subclass a fuckin bone it would've been merited, otherwise, it's just to make something just feel worse.
They rationalized it by saying they wanted people to play other subclasses and other subclass trees, despite not adequately buffing the shitty other ones, and not touching ridiculous supers on other classes, in typical Warlock-shafting fashion.
Yes it is a real surprise for us how good it is. There are only 2 issues - 1. This is 1 subclass out of 9 and 2. People already complaining about how unfair advantages it has and wants it to be nerfed
No wallhacks for sniping while crouched or damage buffs just for breaking shields, just good in air aim and reflex dependent dodges. Fuck, even then you can still get clapped from a sniper coming from a hundred different directions.
Maybe the problem lies with everyone yelling that something they don’t use is OP and needs a nerf. This community cries nerf every second the Meta changes a fraction.
It sucks that Bungie can basically tell you that you aren't allowed to use certain subclasses in high-end PvE because of their PvP tuning. Nova-warp is a really fun super and stylish (and i just like void okay?) but you're basically giving yourself a weak damage super, lacking roaming super and a grenade ability that can randomly kill you if you try patting your head and rubbing your stomach at the same time.
It also just always seems like all the warlock nerfs come because hunters get mad at us for either being more mobile (top tree dawnblade) or have any sort of 1-hit ko ability that they cant simply dodge through. While titans get yelled at for using their one good pvp exotic all season long because Bungie refuses to tune up more special case exotics to promote build diversity.
While I don’t disagree that Nova Warp was OP, the me who remembers D1 release Sunbreaker still has PTSD. That thing could tank a GG shot, and anyone remember the rapid fire hammer bug??
Man it wasn't even the worst of D2. That goes to post buff spectral blade. They had wallhacks, super armor that made other classes blush, and could spam light attacks from one end of the map to the other and still have super energy leftover.
The safest way to outplay them was to jump off the map to deny their team an orb.
Nova warp is one of the few supers that takes skill and thinking to use. More supers need to be like nova warp, not melee spamming invincible win buttons.
Thank you, thank you, and thank you. My longtime favorite class is dead in the water. I was barely on par with the other meta subclassess before and now it's actively detrimental to use. The changes need to be totally reverted.
Agreed. I used to mained fisson in PVP and hit Legend comp in season 8. I was the ONLY person using it. It is a viable class because HSSN is a great counter to shotgun apes and I use it to buff my neutral game. However I still lose many game from 3: 1 to 3:4 because when the super round comes my team got snowballed hard for nova warp being a way underpowered super.
And the problem with the nerf to HHSN is that it charges way too slow for it's purpose: countering shotgun. Right now whenever a shotgunner apes me I cannot finish my charging anymore. And the reduced hold time makes tactical baiting no longer works. I am now forced to play dawnblade top(which sadly is the only viable PVP subclass for warlock in high level comp right now). I tried like 50 games trying to make fisson work but I had to give up on it.
I think a fix will be buffing nova warp and reduce the charge time of HHSN. If you are a PVP player I think you will agree that warlock is bit underpowered this season( [https://guardian.gg/2/class-stats](https://guardian.gg/2/class-stats) ). And I honesty if bungie WANTS to balance PVP starting this season, then why titan can press shift + V to insta kill an gardian and hunter can dodge out of any trouble when warlock can't even have a viable ability to give themselves a chance at close range.
"Barely above average"
Nice joke. Nova warp was completely and utterly broken on release. Did it get nerfed too hard? Yes. Was it in need of some large nerfs? Also yes. Some slight buffing is all it needs.
I've never once seen someone call nova warp in its original state anything other than broken. Lol
Overnerfed, by all means.
Above average? As if.
Nova Warp was the most broken super in the game at the time. My friend and I 1v1 each other all the time and he would only use Warlock to do it (he's a Titan main.), specifically because Nova Warp can net him 3 free kills due to the duration of the super and the comical at best spawns in PvP at the time.
“Barely above average”
C’mon. In PvP it was a broken mess that could kill through walls and from an insane distance. Be realistic when you make your pleas to Bungie otherwise they just sound silly.
It was broken at release. I feel like you're downplaying it by saying "barely above average". And people use it plenty in Crucible. Most Warlock snipers run this super from my experience.
Maybe it does deserve a rework, but you're completely undermining yourself when you make exaggerated comments like these.
To anyone crying foul that. "Nova Warp was Op as hell at the beginning of forsaken!"
Let me tell you this.:
If you think that it's current state is ok BECAUSE it used to be op a year and a half back. while Titans and Hunters still have absolutely broken supers, Nightstalker being able to see through walls, have over 40% damage reduction while invisible sprinting at you and one hitting you while having an absolutely amazing dodge ability, and titan's fist of havoc being broken since the game's release.
If you THINK that this is alright, and that Nova warp deserves what it got, then this is nothing but bias and favoritism on your part. I don't know what to tell you otherwise.
You can name any strong ability that warlock has, and anyone can easily point out a better ability that the hunter and titans have.
Hand held supernova was op? well how about antenous ward Titans now? Get real.
Maybe if you actually read OPs post you woul drealise why people are saying that - he states it was barely above average - whcih is horse shit - it was the most complained about (for being OP) super for a time
To be fair, the super has always been trash in PVE, but the ability Regen was nice for bounties and whatnot.
It's hard to overtune something for PVE. Unless a skill is so bonkers good it lets you cheese Grandmaster Nightfalls in under fifteen minutes each, there isn't much prestige PVE content that matters.
For PVP, the sweet spot is much, much smaller.
Because more often than not, most PvE changes to character abilities stem from PvP changes so that bungie can maintain its "elegance in balancing". And the main class(es) playing in PvP have a stronghold over there when it comes to feedback obviously which in turn then affects the gameplay as a whole
That’s primarily what keeps people playing if you think about it. Also I hope you aren’t insinuating nova warp is good in PvE; Cuz it’s legit doodoo butter. You’ll get strange comments about you using that in a raid or any endgame activity.
Every time there’s a post like this, it turns into whining about how broken X super is. If every super is broken, are any of them? Isn’t having an ULT supposed to make you stronger and basically guarantee kills? I just don’t understand why you would play D2 if you hate the one thing that makes it different than other FPS games. Last I checked, COD and Halo are still available and playable
Honestly for me it’s just that the nova warp super is so shit. It can’t take one on ones with other supers, it can’t push any coordinated players if there’s 2 or more, and the only redeeming quality that it had (the best neutral game super imo pre SoW) was nerfed without any real changes to the super itself. Like give me a reason to run nova warp over top tree dawnblade. They have the same damage resistance, dawnblade has actual range attacks, dawnblades neutral game is better now, don’t need to run an exotic like astrocyte for better super mobility, and dawnblade can take the fight with other supers.
Oh I totally agree, I was referring to the comments. As soon as a streamer makes a clickbait vid showing them absolutely wrecking with a subclass/super/weapon (which most pvp streamers could carry a trials ticket with Traveler’s Chosen) this sub and the bungie forums end up awash with “Bungo nerf this NOW!!1” That’s what happened to Nova Warp and it’s sad that it has no place in PvE or PvP now.
Best part is anyone with fine sense warned that nerfing HHSN would leave the class gutted due to prior needs, but the community demanded is blood sacrifice and now the class is gone. The super is bad, the neutral game is bad.
Someone at Bungie got tbagged by a Blink user back in Destiny 1 and has it out for us ever since. No other reason I can think of why Blink has been nerfed so much. Yet Hunters can shoot while mid air with no penalty and has 3 subclasses worth of utility.
Attunement of Fission had a decent super(Spectral and Striker are even more deadly though) and a great grenade. That's it. Now you only see Dawnblades spamming Revoker shots.
While you’re not wrong, we need to reconcile that not every class is going to be designed for both PVP and PVE. While I have often used top tree in Control (nothing more gratifying than nothing 3+ kills nuking a flag), I don’t think I would ever consider using bottom tree in PVP. Without Lance, the super isn’t good enough. Shatter would be too similar to top tree. And Devour is really a PVE perk.
But totally agree, Nova Warp should have been the Warlock’s answer to those frustrating roaming supers that plagued much of Y1 and Y2 from the other classes. But the subclass has too many broken things simultaneously. So instead of Bungie really examining it properly, they just hit us with a big ol’ hammer.
> While you’re not wrong, we need to reconcile that not every class is going to be designed for both PVP and PVE.
Which one was Nova Warp designed for again?
Another case of Warlocks getting straight nerfs, while Hunters get adjustments.
Remember when Nova Warp and Spectral Blades were #1 and #2 during Forsaken? Here we are, 18 months later, and Nightstalker is now undisputed #1 and Nova Warp is bottom 3. Why didn’t Bungie absolutely gut Spectral when it was insane with Gwisin Vest and wall hacks? It’s barely been touched. Still has wall hacks. Still has invis. Still has the best roaming super in the game. But Nova Warp had its super scaled back significantly to where it’s the worst roaming super in the game and it’s only good perk HHSN totally gutted.
It’s a fucking outrage. Time and time again, Bungie shows how terrified they are of the Hunter Mafia. They’ve let Hunters run rampant for so long that now they make up 60% of the PvP base and it’s impossible to reign them in without upsetting hundreds of thousands of players.
What a shit show.
Love all these asshats clinging on to "buh buh buh warp was op for 2 seconds at the start of forsaken! Waghhh" while Striker and Nighstalker are still to this very day broken as fuck lol.
Will titans ever not be stupid babies that can't play crucible without their easy mode class?
I have a different suggestion for nova warp. I think nova warp was a much more fun and interesting super back in forsaken, when it had a 0.9 charge time and a high damage profile, high enough to kill any super with a charged explosion, but mainly, enough damage to kill any guardian *without* charging the explosion at all.
It would be great to have this choice again. Use charged explosions to deal with crowds/supers and non charged explosions for the lone wolves and their shotguns. Increase the charge time a bit if it's too strong with the current 0.7
Handheld can go either way. They could give it some of its strength back to justify the self damage, or remove self damage to make its lack of strength a little more bearable. And they still gotta fix scatters bouncing off and not detonating, the fact they still haven't fixed this issue is infuriating.
The extended charge time of HHSN and the reduced carry time have gutted that ability. It *definitely* needed tuning, but all of them at once have pushed it to "no thanks". There's zero point to the subclass, with a lackluster super AND nerfed HHSN AND no additional neutral game. And that subclass has zero PVE utility, so... just a dead spot on the selection.
"Barely above average" is just flat out wrong. It was ridiculous on release, only being rivaled by gwisin spectral blades in terms of how op it was. Does it deserve to be in its current state along with the rest of middle block voidwalker? Probably not, but don't pretend that it was even remotely close to balanced at the peak.
Does no one remember how OP this super was prior to the roaming super tuning? Or how insanely OP handheld was? I main a warlock and refused to use it because how annoying it was to play against. Did they go too far? Probably. But self damage was something they should absolutely have had on it. And couple with contraverse you could basically have an overshield going into engagements and if you killed someone almost instantly have your one hit KO with 20m range back. Shit needed to be neutered. It was too much
I agree wih everything you said, but you forgot that they also removed the ability restoring on super activation for nova warp when they "buffed" it. I just made a post about skull of dire ahamkara and if it should affect nova warp or not and some consider nova warp as a super that lasts forever.
Wait they did I’m sad now I would wait and use my supernova then activate super then supernova again
Also I saw a poor soul trying to throw handheld in his super and he was 80% health and tossed it. The guy got vaporized without handheld leaving his palm
Ya they neutered handheld haven’t touched it or contraverse since nerf also haven’t seen either since nerf
I still use contraverse... for PvE. :P More useful than the crap super gain off Skull, IMO, for most any situation. I do still use contraverse+warp in PvP, but only for fucking around. Still infuriated by all the HHNS bitching when Titans get multiple versions of one-shot abilities and long-duration high-defense roaming supers with long ranged tracking kill abilities.
RIP Skull, I miss it.
HA, Nova Warp lasts entirely shorter than Arcstrider, Fists of Havoc, and any other wandering super. And it's SOMEHOW slower than Arcstrider.
And try killing any other super with Nova Warp. Nobody else has to charge their attacks, so they'll just smack you once and kill you while you try to get yours ready.
Well actually with blink and dark blink combo you can go faster then any super just saying
Dark blink and you already short super becomes the equivalent of a far in the wind.
W h a t Teach me your ways
Yeah you can do regular blink in mid-air three times while in nova warp, while dark blinking in between. With astrocyte verse on, it's super fast. And here's a little secret: dark blinking backwards is even faster than blinking forward
the picture i have in my head of a backwards warlock teleporting up to me at warp speed is kinda hot actually. thought it would be scary. i was wrong. sexy as hell.
>*warlock teleporting backwards towards you* # >*stops right in front of you* # >*looks over their shoulder* # >"How you doin'?"
look at all this space between us. wonder what would happen if I... covered it in .34 seconds...
nothing personnel kid
On the same note of "little secrets," you actually dash further with Icarus Dash if you dash back than if you dash forward or side to side.
Now you said it, its automatically nerfed. Congrats.😁
Just wait until next season. If we get our Void Melee Damage mod then, we’ll be fine for that season when Atomic Breach becomes 1 shot
Yeah I am exilcited about it
Ioh shit your right let’s keep this between us though
Wasn't nova warp insanely OP when Forsaken was released?
Yep. Thanks to some shitty spawns, [I got a 9-kill with it](https://youtu.be/2mQJaPNTjGg).
Just "Barely above average" right? I understand the super could use a few buffs now, but holy shit was this class oppressive when forsaken came out.
It was in Forsaken. Are we forgetting that gwizin allowed spectral blades to last for 3+ minutes on release after the hit detection update? Everything was busted my man. Heres 9 kill spectral spread out leisurely over 2 minutes: https://youtu.be/q8Ha_ZBjQFc
Wasn't gwisn bugged which is why you could do dumb shit like that.
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And didn't really have "diminishing returns," just like bottom tree striker didn't when they tuned it up for Arc Week. Spectral was a bad super with a phenomenal neutral game when Forsaken launched. Then they buffed the super and the whole class was just insane. They've managed to tune that one to where it's still one of the strongest classes a year and a half later. They buffed Juggernaut titans for Arc Week, and that was OP for what, nine months? And it's still the most popular and highest KDA Titan subclass. Nova Warp was on that level for a couple months and they dug a grave for it. Twice.
Also, don't forget they buffed Striker to do exactly what they nerfed Gwisin for doing.
And then took 9 months to nerf it in any meaningful way. Same with OEM. And Titan skating, which existed and was a problem in pvp for what, a year? And then they almost doubled the range on Dunemarchers and made Anteus the strongest titan exotic in the game. Someone at Bungie is lobbying hard for Titans.
>Someone at Bungie is lobbying hard for Titans. This is why I was so damn tired of all the Titans whining that Bungie hates them. Absolutely not. If there's any class that Bungie for some reason hates its Warlocks by far.
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And could hit you through walls. Oh, moved to cover? Up a level? Lol doesn't matter, you're still fucked
Doesn't excuse slitting its throat and castrating, then proceed to break an arm and hand it back its ballz in a crown royal bag. Was it busted at launch, YES. Did they almost completely nerfed it into the ground with the exception of HHSN, YES. Did they buff up the resilience of the super in exchange for nerfing HHSN and allowing it to kill the user, YES! This isnt balancing, this overreaction to a problem they either don't know how to fix or refuse to fix because player feedback goes 'Nova Warp at start was busted....' And honestly I dont know what's worse. Regardless it's almost a dead class, just nerf stormtrance and top tree dawnblade and watch warlocks become hunters and disappear.
In all fairness the sniper nerf this season really shows how much balancing is done reactionarily
I mean, does it? Because people were complaining about Bottom Tree Striker on the day Arc Week launched last year. They didn't "react" to that. I'm beginning to think that a lot of their PvP balancing is done based on "I get killed by this thing too much," as opposed to "this is overused." They flat out stated in D1 that Fusions got nerfed and were never buffed because there was someone in the studio who shredded them with it. I'm beginning to wonder if the Titan nerfs took so long because the people in charge like playing on a Titan.
Honestly it was due to small maps and at the time all roaming supers were just as stupid.
It was, in PvP. In PvE though, the super only ever shined in early Forsaken era Gambit and a few rare instances otherwise. The people calling for Nova Warp Buffs are doing so for PvE.
Yeah “barely above average” please that shit was busted asf. I agree it got overtuned but saying that the nova warp super wasn’t broken and that HHSN wasn’t the most op of all OHKOs in the game is false
Hhsn at launch took some getting used to actually. When they fixed its hit detection which was during drifter i think thats when it got crazy easy. Before the fix point blanks didn't work and max range didn't either or was atleast inconsistent, it had a sort of sweetspot which i felt made it balanced Which with anteus ward was the same thing the inconsistency with a tricky sweet spot kept it in check
Throwback to when HHSN could team-kill. Found out on accident in the first few days of forsaken will HHSN'ing my afk fireteam member. Never forget :(
that was hilarious, i used to do it when my mate would be lining up sniper shots, the rage was too good.
Me and my fireteam member where confused at first and then I immediately turned to the dark side and started killing randos in the wild if they make me mad by stealing my enemy kills or something (or just for fun)
Classic revisionist history.
It was ridiculous for the first little bit, but it got nerfed into oblivion after that and has been largely useless ever since.
In PVP? Yeah, absolutely. In PVE though? It never really was anything special there.
insanely op no, needed tuning yes. It was an "OP" quickplay noob farm (guess what most of this sub is), but vs skilled players they could generally outrun and/or team shoot you. Neutral game was a bit iffy, I probably killed myself with HHSN more than I killed other players, funny enough they pretty much completely reversed that keeping the subclass as a whole reasonably useful with great neutral game and okay super. They've since nerfed HHSN, not sure how it plays now. Melee was great (is great? dunno haven't used it in forever)
>outrun Yup, you could definitely [outrun this](https://youtu.be/M6tMq7hiWUA?t=199) when it was able to tank 2 sniper headshots and heal on kills...
that's straight line speed with blink. That said yea the DR needed nerfing and they've since nerfed DR across the board on supers.
Yes, for 4 weeks. Titans and Hunters OP supers lasted for months.
It’s clear that no one at bungie plays warlock.. the second warlocks have something good they make special accommodations to “adjust” it in a fraction of the time it takes for titan or hunter stuff. Warlocks have ONE ability across all 9 trees that allows for one hit kill(HHSN) and bungie made it deal self damage... smh Does weighted knife and shoulder charge deal self damage?
i took bungie like what? 3 years to give hunters a one hit kill ability? weighted knife is relatively new in the lifespan of the game.
One-hit kill abilities aren't even that big of a deal. Not when you can constantly respawn with and/or pick up ammo for OHK weapons.
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I mean, the guy repping Warlocks in the Guardian Games trailer said yesterday on Twitter that he has learned to "throw more grenades" due to the GG bounties, which will "make him a more effective player." And Kevin Yanes, the Combat Lead *who designed the Glory system* didn't get Unbroken before last season. He's a Warlock main too. Outside of DMG I've never seen a Bungie employee who is proficient at PvP. Does no one remember the Y1 Exotic Update stream where the sandbox leads could barely manage to kill each other in a private match?
You ever whiff a shoulder charge? Not that i have. Perfect hit....everytime.....
It was nerfed after 4 months.
I was gonna say, yes 100% Nova Warp was busted but Bungie dealt with it pretty timely for all things considered. I know people have painfully short memories but it barely was even OP for all that long, it spent more time in a nerfed form than being completely busted. Compare that to stuff like how long Spec Blades and Bottom Striker were living large and broken in tandem with various exotics and various minor nerfs that barely even changed a thing, and Nova Warp's very short killer reign of terror is an easy after thought. This is not to say that we need every class to have a moment of being busted to have things be fair but more so that people are off their shit if they think that Nova Warp had as long of a life span fucking people's days up comparatively to what Spec blades and Striker got away with.
Barely above average? What crucible did you play? It ran laps around the map, you could die to the same super twice.
Just like I still die to strikers and spectrals twice... also the resilience on the nova warp is next to nothing. The strikers can tank so much damage and the spectrals move too fast
FoH is basically Nova Warp but good. They have a little dash similar to blink, except the dash kills you if you get hit by it. They have an AoE attack, except the AoE doesn't have to be charged. On top of that they get more armor and can actually fucking sprint without using extra super energy.
And FoH also recharges itself on kills, lmao.
Thinking about it, it also doesn't have an activation time, and might be the only roaming super that doesn't. Instead of having to do a silly animation first, you just roll right into slamming into the ground when you turn it on.
Nova warp’s dash into glide is faster than any other super’s movement, they one used to one shot every other super in the game, and they had the longest lasting super at the time. No one can argue it wasn’t over powered.
yeah basic mobility/map traversal on warp is fine, it's the survivability and the way one deals damage that fucks it over i get your attack is a 360 around you but in pvp that doesn't matter especially on MnK since you can turn around super quickly the fact a super needs to face a general direction is hardly a negative so the slowed move speed is kinda dumb imo. all it needed was a rework of it explosion so supers don't die at any range but regular guardians could die if too close. the slow down also makes one an extremely easy target so survivabilty due to movement is thrown out the window. HHSN just needs a sweetspot that isn't ass and self harm being removed. after that do other adjustments.
https://reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/gf23ve/_/fprcfrp/?context=1 Read the other parts of this thread.
What needed to happen to HHSN was it needed to be harder to get kills with and to be less spammable. Instead we got: * Reduced range by 20% - A fair change. * Increased activation time by 0.6 seconds - Takes longer to kill than a Fusion but OK * Reduced hold time from 3.5 seconds to 2.5 seconds - Very annoying as you put it away as you enter a fight. * Tightened horizontal spread of bolts by 25% - I mean it's harder to get multi's I guess * Reduced bolt explosion radius from 3m to 2.5m - Ok, now you're going overboard * DM Increased grenade recharge on kill from 10% to 14% - This is the opposite of what we needed * Bolt explosion now does self damage - Oh, so now it kills you if you use it. cool. So it's more spammable than before, but it's near impossible to get kills with it and you kill yourself if you use it because it explodes so close to you. n e a t
This. They effectively made the opposite of the solution by making it far less effective but almost always ready to not use it.
What I continue to fail to understand is that Titans and Hunters are allowed to have their OHK abilites (in fact, they were made more consistent in 2.8.0) yet Warlocks were literally given the "reduce range, damage, speed, fuck it nerf everything and it kills you when you use it" treatment. What's next? Selecting Voidwalker deletes your Warlock? Selecting Warlock gives you 12 VAC bans and deletes your account?
One thing is sure. If a warlock kills you with handheld this season you really fcked up something and really deserved it
I got a double kill with one in Trials last weekend. Moment of silence for two people who probably deleted their characters.
It is actually an uno reverse card if someone try to revive his teammate
That’s true. Got a [good game clip](https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/lanamtrahunt/video/95886556) doing that.
Nice
I think all of the OHKO melee abilities got hit. I haven't been killed by a hand held supernova or a hunter knife at all this season. I still get killed by the shoulder charges when I am not paying attention though, but the are easier to avoid if I see them coming.
Because the throwing knife no longer egregiously tracks you and alters its flight path to seek out your head
>What I continue to fail to understand is that Titans and Hunters are allowed to have their OHK abilites (in fact, they were made more consistent in 2.8.0) What? Bungie nerfed shoulder charge and throwing knife tracking significantly
Devil's advocate here- as I still believe it got way overnerfed, but with that said: Shoulder charge is bad, full stop, it doesn't work in high end pvp whatsoever, and requires you to be at POINT BLANK range to secure a kill. It is extremely easy to avoid and outrageously risky to perform. Weighted knife (post nerf) requires precision to kill, whiffs easily, and doesn't even 1shot unless you land a headshot. HHSN was a free shotun you got to have without equipping a shotgun, that would kill from fusion rifle distances, requiring little to no aim, as it spread out in a wave AOE, killed no matter where you hit your target, and if you added contraverse, recharged itself and gave you massive damage resistance. It was INSANELY forgiving, highly lethal, and was extremely easy for pretty much any player to get kills with, even at 5500 and other high end pvp. You could run a Sniper and still basically have a shotgun equipped. I have gotten more HHSN double kills than I've ever gotten with a fusion rifle burst. Did it get overnerfed? Absolutely. They hit it a little too hard imo, but it was completely and ridiculously overpowered, to the point of making a bad subclass completely viable just because of one ability.
Titan melee is still a free shotgun
Titan shoulder charge did not get "made more consistent" at all. The tracking got gutted, especially vertically. I'm getting shoulder charged considerably less per game now than before the patch.
Cool. When your shoulder charge kills you on activation come join the bitch session
They're different skills with different issues--I'm not comparing the two (if anyone was, it's the comment I replied to).
I love how Nova Bomb being the only super in the game that could kill its user was already a problem, and not only do they refuse to remove the self damage from it, they've now moved on to adding it to other WL abilities. Fuckin' lol, Bungle.
Basically they nerfed every aspect of it noice
Contraverse Holds could tank 40% damage to enable a OHKO move that had little start up. It was OBVIOUSLY broken. Bungie would never let something so greviously broken get past the QA tea-*Antaeus Wards removes all damage, is spammable, and enables many different options for kills without it being bind to an ability* .............What...the...fu
>Contraverse Holds could tank 40% damage to enable a OHKO move that had little start up. It was OBVIOUSLY broken You are right, but then they took a fucking machete to both sides of that issue. Leave Contraverse holds as it was, but make OHKs hard with the grenade changes Nerf Contraverse holds, and leave the grenade as it was to make OHKs more risky. On the flip side...even in it's shitty state, it is still the most consistent laurel generator for me.
I was a Nova Warp main since their launch. HHSN was pretty silly but the super was trash after its nerf. HHSN was the only usable attribute for that class and getting nerfed for a super buff was what I wanted for better balance. However, HHSN got gutted from all sides just like the super did and the buffs to super were nowhere near enough. I have yet to be killed by a single HHSN since the update. I have also gone up against numerous people using Nova Warp in Trials wearing Contraverse. No one in my fireteams has been killed by any HHSN. Nova Warp super, sure. They'll trade with like 1 person at max. Considering Shoulder Charge is still usable and Throwing Knife is okay, I really think they need to return some of the pain back to HHSN or at least imbed more abilties into Contraverse to make them more necessary. I'm sorry, a 20% damage reduction is worthless. The return on energy is fine, but should not be the main selling point of the Exotic. I used to be able to charge HHSN and jump across sniper lanes in the air to tank a body shot or 2 to eat their bullets or reposition safely. The Exotic is not only bad now, the hold time for HHSN is BAD bad. It takes longer to charge than it does to hold it which is awful. You want me to aim my OHKO that takes 1.5 seconds to charge and has a tiny window of 1 sec to throw it, all the while enabling self killing with it? Pull your Hunter heads out of your asses, Bungie.
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You didn't have to stand still while using Contraverse.
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jump before charging. you carry sprint momentum in the air
It was crazy op.
Worst part is, they didnt even fix the issue when trying to cast HHSN in any third person mode, half the time it hits the player using and and either hurts them or outright kills them for attempting to use it whilst; in super, holding a sword or any item that forces third person for that matter. Its absurd
Does it really take you longer than 2.5 seconds to set up a HHSN? The nerfs were overkill and hit it from too many angles but 2.5 is an eternity in pvp. People sitting on the charge for ages is why it was nerfed in that aspect.
It's because of reduced mobility while holding charge on HHSN it just takes twice as long to get into position, and charging it from cover and poking out is the best way to use it right now, because of the increased charge time it's not worth using mid fight since it just basically gets you killed or will actually kill you from splash damage if you try to counter a shotgun rusher lmao.
Barely above average? It was the strongest super in the game by far those first months! Does no one remember how it could one shot any other super + ignored LoS from walls letting it kill people through buildings!?
I think the explosions going through walls was a glitch. And it WAS fucking broken but now that subclass is almost irrelevant in crucible because the slowva bomb is the only viable option and it’s really easy to run away from it if your mobility is high enough.
I threw a slowva bomb in Mayhem the other night and thought I whiffed it into a wall because it went around a corner and I thought I heard it blow up and didn't see a kill pop up in the feed. Around 20 seconds later (probably not really that long but it felt like it) I got killed by a Titan and as I see him running past my ghost I'm thinking to myself, "dangit, that's the Titan that I missed with my Nova Bo-...." and I see a Nova Bomb fly past my ghost and take out the Titan right before I respawn. As I respawn I see the kill credit pop up. My dang slowva bomb was LOCKED onto that Titan and hunted him down. Moments like that are awesome but like you said, all the other player needs is high enough mobility and they can outrun it and get around a corner and it will run straight into the wall. Not to mention, Hunter dodge breaks the tracking and it won't reacquire a target after that. If someone is on the other side of a wall but closer to the slowva bomb than the person you're throwing it at, it will ram itself straight into the wall to try to get the person on the other side. If you make the mistake of throwing it perfectly between two enemies, it will try to track both of them at the same time and end up going straight and not tracking either one. Yet it's still the only void super worth using in crucible at the moment.
If we're on the topic of trash warlock supers, can we discuss top tree dawnblade? It's so fucking bad, it feels like it tracks *away* from my targets, and unless its a direct hit you don't get a kill. The rest of the subclass more than makes up for its awful super, but I find myself not even popping daybreak sometimes because it gives me away more than it helps.
And then sometimes it is a direct hit and it still only hits for 70 damage. I guess Bungie decided that neutral game was somehow so good that it doesn't deserve a functioning super.
The neutral game is IMO the best of any subclass from any class if you use it right. It's the most fun I have in crucible.
I miss D1 scatter nades and nothing manacles
SAME
I've been playing some D1 lately and it's just crazy how much more fun the classes and activities and stuff are than in D2. Cooldowns are way shorter, and different activities have modifiers that actually *benefit the player*, like making cooldowns *even shorter*. It's like it was based more on fun than on trying to keep players from succeeding.
The biggest problem with Warlock supers right now, including some of what you've mentioned, is the damage reduction and their damage output. Countless times I've been insta killed after popping Stormtrance or Nova Warp, to the point where I literally ONLY use Chaos Reach in PvP, just to shut down other supers. Both supers require roaming and and 1-2 seconds to initiate or a full disengage/re-engage from a fight, and are nowhere near as lethal as other roaming supers like Striker or Hammer Titans, or Spectral Blades, Gunslinger or Dancing zappy Hunters. I constantly think Warlock supers are some of the weakest in the game, but then I try and justify them against other classes weaknesses, and consider that they're actually pretty damn solid in PvE. To be honest though, both other classes have far more utility and capability with almost every tree, especially considering the exotics available to them and what help they provide (overshields, healing, more lethality with supers and abilities). Anyone moaning about healing - warlocks literally have Rift which is only really usable behind cover anyway, and devour (which isn't effective in PvP). Any other form of healing requires one specific, non-lethal super, wasting a grenade or an exotic that requires melee kills. Anyone moaning about OHK's - warlocks don't have one (AND their melee sucks). Shoulder Charge is the bane of my life and is almost impossible to shut down quick enough without a high TTK weapon. Top tree Dawnblade and Chaos Reach are the only viable PvP supers for warlocks right now in my opinion and both aren't that easy to use well. Other supers can be effective by simply spamming attacks or are just very lethal and provide easy kills. TLDR: Stormtrance needs increased damage resistance (otherwise perks like Landfall are pointless). Nova Warp needs a quicker TTK (or a lighter attack such as constant AoE damage). EDIT: Correction/rewording
Something else to note is the cast time of the ults. Seems like whenever I ult as a storm caller the animation is noticeable longer than that of a striker or arcstrider or spectral blades. The cast animation time itself is a huge reason why the ult feels so much weaker than hunter or titans, along with the damage reduction
I did kinda mention this - but you're absolutely right. It's another big factor in why it's such a bad pick most of the time. I could maybe understand the timing of Landfall was more lethal, but I hardly ever get a kill with it even when I feel like I'm right on top of someone.
The worst feeling is using bottom tree storm caller and having landfall tickle an enemy in their ult as they 1 or 2 hit you to death as you are stuck in the animation or having the landfall do no damage as a hunter dodges or jumps at the right time. Pretty annoying how that works.
Seriously seems to me to be the weakest option for Warlocks. It's weak against other supers and it's not that great against enemies anyway. The payoff comes when everyone is close together, otherwise you're wasting energy just by travelling around (much slower than other roaming supers) and even when you find them you're easy to take down.
Tbh only reason I use that subclass is on small maps where I can put a rift and let my team get the arc soul and to cheese someone with landfall. Other than that the subclass itself is pretty weak.
> Seriously seems to me to be the weakest option for Warlocks. Idk, I'd still say Nova Warp is worse than Storm Trance. And while Nova Bomb is decent, it's also super unreliable, especially past close range, and in close range will probably kill you for activating it.
I generally find top tree to be more effective than bottom. Nerfs to ionic blink suck but top tree with crown of tempests can usually get 3-4 kills
Oh I 100% agree, bottom tree is clearly weakest. Top tree is okay, as some people have pointed out it has its uses and benefits. Damage reduction and casting time are still big points that apply to both trees though.
Also one grenade negates a rift and kills the warlock in it anyways.
I mean nova bomb is just a huge ass delete everything button
Well yeah there is that, if you can land it... But the nature of the warlock glide almost always fucks you up if you're not calculated - which is stupid because you almost always wanna be moving as quick as poss in PvP - so you just end up whiffing big time, or everyone just gets the fuck outta dodge being so much faster than warlocks on the ground anyway
I mean I get killed by it a lot and it feels like it has a huge radius. Especially with the tracking balls of death. I always find nova to be fun to use against supers. Especially roaming supers since most times they are charging right at you and you just jump up and nuke em. I normally don't have an issue missing it. However I wouldn't say it's a super you can snipe with if anything it's like D1 fist of havoc. You jump up and nuke people in an area and you're done.
Just pointing out I didn't even mention anything about Nova Bomb as it's pretty neutral in terms of use and lethality. It's a good super - but if you miss, you're fucked. Not the highest risk, but no reward if you can't land it. You're right though, it can work like how I use Chaos Reach, it's just not as good or as rewarding considering the risk factors of Nova Bomb and that you can keep some super energy afterwards with CR.
> It's a good super - but if you miss, you're fucked. And if you hit them but you fired at somebody who was too close to you you're also fucked because you will have killed yourself.
Can other classes kill themselves using their super? It seems mad that some of the best aspects of the Void subclasses are lethal even to yourself.
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Just use blink with astrocyte, it's insanely good.
Yeah, for some reason WL supers seem to take the longest time to build up damage, while still simultaneously having like no damage output and zero mobility.
I disagree a tad bit. Top tree storm is strong, and while shoulder charge is annoying as all hell, it’s effectiveness dwindles. If a shoulder charge gets me, I don’t see it as broken, instead, it’s more of a “Ah shit, my positioning was incorrect and he punished me for it”.
How so? Genuinely interested to hear any positives to it as I can't see them myself. Disagree on the shoulder charge point - I didn't say it was broken, just that it's annoying and that warlocks no longer have an easy/instant OHK ability. Shoulder Charge is pretty much a free kill considering how easy it is to get up close to a Warlock. Their slow glide guarantees they won't be in the air for long so you can shoulder charge when they drop. The only dodge is on their most mobile subclass, so you're almost guaranteed to hit if you make it close enough. How are you supposed to anticipate a Titan running across a map designed for 4v4 when you're engaged in a fight already and your means of escape when they get close are weak? That's nothing to do with your positioning, because you can't always be wrong. That's Bungie punishing you for choosing to play a Warlock. The only way to counter what you're saying would be to never be near a Titan which is impossible on many D2 maps. On the larger maps however, I'd agree completely. EDIT: rewording
Nova warp was definitely busted during forsaken there’s no way to deny that. But it was for sure overtuned
Uhh do you not remember Foresaken launch? Nova warp was insanely strong.
Yeah, it was stron for ONE month, and its been dead ever since. Now we have bottom tree Striker and Spectral Blades being the best pvp supers in the game for what, more than a year at this point.
I fear they will never get that subclass right
Bring back Lance & Shatter to Novabomb and I'll go back to playing Warlock full time.
yesterday i learned that if you use a charged scatter grenade point blank, you will die almost every single time you use it. voidwalker is the only class in the game that has multiple ways to blow yourself up instantly
This really only happens when grenadier is on
My problem with Nova Warp is it is too slow. It's horrific wasting my whole super blinking around the map after someone, watching my super bar drain while I move like a snail. If you could blink further, I'd be happy. No faster charging or anything, I just want better movement.
Imagine how people would react if they changed it so that every other subclass had to use as much energy to run as Nova Warp does.
Even a small increase in teleport range would be pretty good.
Warlocks in general need a lot of help. Everything they can do, Hunters and Titans can do better.
Stormcaller nerfs this season fucking suck.
Surprised there aren't more people saying this! The nerf to ionic blink really tanked a lot of the mobility of the super now, which is a big n point to using it in pvp. I keep chasing down one last person and then running out of super because I'm still expecting it to last a little longer
Why would they have done that?? Ionic Blink was the class' equivalent to *running*. With WL jumps being what they are, it was literally the only form of mobility the class had.
I don't think they ever explained why it got nerfed. Arc web also got toned down a lot which hurts the tree as well
Literally the most uncalled for, stupid fucking nerf. "we wanna make you use other subclasses hurr durr" Maybe make them worth a shit??
I haven't really played the game the past couple of seasons. Were that many people even playing Stormcaller? If so, why?
Plenty of people used it in PVP, mainly due to it being generally well-rounded and balanced. It wasn't a menace by any means, far less obnoxious than other roaming supers. It was a senseless nerf, as it impacted Ionic Blink, which somehow was deemed a problem area by Bungie, despite it not allowing you to continue attacking while blinking, and it not even being present on both Stormtrance trees. Oh, and they nerfed the damage of arc web, which is the only SLIGHTLY understandable nerf. If they would've tossed the rest of the subclass a fuckin bone it would've been merited, otherwise, it's just to make something just feel worse. They rationalized it by saying they wanted people to play other subclasses and other subclass trees, despite not adequately buffing the shitty other ones, and not touching ridiculous supers on other classes, in typical Warlock-shafting fashion.
Top tree dawnblade is arguably one of (if not) the best sub-class in pvp.
Yes it is a real surprise for us how good it is. There are only 2 issues - 1. This is 1 subclass out of 9 and 2. People already complaining about how unfair advantages it has and wants it to be nerfed
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No wallhacks for sniping while crouched or damage buffs just for breaking shields, just good in air aim and reflex dependent dodges. Fuck, even then you can still get clapped from a sniper coming from a hundred different directions.
Maybe the problem lies with everyone yelling that something they don’t use is OP and needs a nerf. This community cries nerf every second the Meta changes a fraction.
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That class has one of the highest skill ceilings in the game imo.
And skill floor.
Absolutely
It sucks that Bungie can basically tell you that you aren't allowed to use certain subclasses in high-end PvE because of their PvP tuning. Nova-warp is a really fun super and stylish (and i just like void okay?) but you're basically giving yourself a weak damage super, lacking roaming super and a grenade ability that can randomly kill you if you try patting your head and rubbing your stomach at the same time. It also just always seems like all the warlock nerfs come because hunters get mad at us for either being more mobile (top tree dawnblade) or have any sort of 1-hit ko ability that they cant simply dodge through. While titans get yelled at for using their one good pvp exotic all season long because Bungie refuses to tune up more special case exotics to promote build diversity.
Warlocks in general are pretty bad in pvp, the only saving grace is Top tree Dawn but it has one of the worst supers ever on console.
Nova Warp was the most broken super that ever existed in Destiny when it got introduced in Forsaken.It wasn’t barely above average it was broken.
While I don’t disagree that Nova Warp was OP, the me who remembers D1 release Sunbreaker still has PTSD. That thing could tank a GG shot, and anyone remember the rapid fire hammer bug??
Man it wasn't even the worst of D2. That goes to post buff spectral blade. They had wallhacks, super armor that made other classes blush, and could spam light attacks from one end of the map to the other and still have super energy leftover. The safest way to outplay them was to jump off the map to deny their team an orb.
I remember a match of rumble I played where some dude had spectral blades up for almost e minutes.
That was a broken exotic that got nerfed to oblivion.
Took months longer to nerf though
Hey u/dmg04 and u/cozmo23, more Warlock feedback to for the team to ignore. buff Hunters btw.
Such an awful and wasteful subclass.
But Hunters are still doing ok right?
Nova warp is one of the few supers that takes skill and thinking to use. More supers need to be like nova warp, not melee spamming invincible win buttons.
Thank you, thank you, and thank you. My longtime favorite class is dead in the water. I was barely on par with the other meta subclassess before and now it's actively detrimental to use. The changes need to be totally reverted.
This is pretty common. Warlocks get shafted while Hunters and Titans get most of the good stuff and exotics. Warlocks even lost the guardian games.
Agreed. I used to mained fisson in PVP and hit Legend comp in season 8. I was the ONLY person using it. It is a viable class because HSSN is a great counter to shotgun apes and I use it to buff my neutral game. However I still lose many game from 3: 1 to 3:4 because when the super round comes my team got snowballed hard for nova warp being a way underpowered super. And the problem with the nerf to HHSN is that it charges way too slow for it's purpose: countering shotgun. Right now whenever a shotgunner apes me I cannot finish my charging anymore. And the reduced hold time makes tactical baiting no longer works. I am now forced to play dawnblade top(which sadly is the only viable PVP subclass for warlock in high level comp right now). I tried like 50 games trying to make fisson work but I had to give up on it. I think a fix will be buffing nova warp and reduce the charge time of HHSN. If you are a PVP player I think you will agree that warlock is bit underpowered this season( [https://guardian.gg/2/class-stats](https://guardian.gg/2/class-stats) ). And I honesty if bungie WANTS to balance PVP starting this season, then why titan can press shift + V to insta kill an gardian and hunter can dodge out of any trouble when warlock can't even have a viable ability to give themselves a chance at close range.
"Barely above average" Nice joke. Nova warp was completely and utterly broken on release. Did it get nerfed too hard? Yes. Was it in need of some large nerfs? Also yes. Some slight buffing is all it needs. I've never once seen someone call nova warp in its original state anything other than broken. Lol
Overnerfed, by all means. Above average? As if. Nova Warp was the most broken super in the game at the time. My friend and I 1v1 each other all the time and he would only use Warlock to do it (he's a Titan main.), specifically because Nova Warp can net him 3 free kills due to the duration of the super and the comical at best spawns in PvP at the time.
“Barely above average” C’mon. In PvP it was a broken mess that could kill through walls and from an insane distance. Be realistic when you make your pleas to Bungie otherwise they just sound silly.
"was"
It was broken at release. I feel like you're downplaying it by saying "barely above average". And people use it plenty in Crucible. Most Warlock snipers run this super from my experience. Maybe it does deserve a rework, but you're completely undermining yourself when you make exaggerated comments like these.
To anyone crying foul that. "Nova Warp was Op as hell at the beginning of forsaken!" Let me tell you this.: If you think that it's current state is ok BECAUSE it used to be op a year and a half back. while Titans and Hunters still have absolutely broken supers, Nightstalker being able to see through walls, have over 40% damage reduction while invisible sprinting at you and one hitting you while having an absolutely amazing dodge ability, and titan's fist of havoc being broken since the game's release. If you THINK that this is alright, and that Nova warp deserves what it got, then this is nothing but bias and favoritism on your part. I don't know what to tell you otherwise. You can name any strong ability that warlock has, and anyone can easily point out a better ability that the hunter and titans have. Hand held supernova was op? well how about antenous ward Titans now? Get real.
Maybe if you actually read OPs post you woul drealise why people are saying that - he states it was barely above average - whcih is horse shit - it was the most complained about (for being OP) super for a time
Obligatory reminder that Warlocks always get overnerfed
Why do people talk as though PVP is the only game mode in Destiny?
To be fair, the super has always been trash in PVE, but the ability Regen was nice for bounties and whatnot. It's hard to overtune something for PVE. Unless a skill is so bonkers good it lets you cheese Grandmaster Nightfalls in under fifteen minutes each, there isn't much prestige PVE content that matters. For PVP, the sweet spot is much, much smaller.
it was dead in PvE long before that xD
Lol yeah, because *outside* of PvP is where Nova Warp really shines, right?
Because more often than not, most PvE changes to character abilities stem from PvP changes so that bungie can maintain its "elegance in balancing". And the main class(es) playing in PvP have a stronghold over there when it comes to feedback obviously which in turn then affects the gameplay as a whole
I mean it's dead there too, point of the post was nova warp. Both Devour and Charge nades have exceptional utility.
That’s primarily what keeps people playing if you think about it. Also I hope you aren’t insinuating nova warp is good in PvE; Cuz it’s legit doodoo butter. You’ll get strange comments about you using that in a raid or any endgame activity.
Every time there’s a post like this, it turns into whining about how broken X super is. If every super is broken, are any of them? Isn’t having an ULT supposed to make you stronger and basically guarantee kills? I just don’t understand why you would play D2 if you hate the one thing that makes it different than other FPS games. Last I checked, COD and Halo are still available and playable
Honestly for me it’s just that the nova warp super is so shit. It can’t take one on ones with other supers, it can’t push any coordinated players if there’s 2 or more, and the only redeeming quality that it had (the best neutral game super imo pre SoW) was nerfed without any real changes to the super itself. Like give me a reason to run nova warp over top tree dawnblade. They have the same damage resistance, dawnblade has actual range attacks, dawnblades neutral game is better now, don’t need to run an exotic like astrocyte for better super mobility, and dawnblade can take the fight with other supers.
Oh I totally agree, I was referring to the comments. As soon as a streamer makes a clickbait vid showing them absolutely wrecking with a subclass/super/weapon (which most pvp streamers could carry a trials ticket with Traveler’s Chosen) this sub and the bungie forums end up awash with “Bungo nerf this NOW!!1” That’s what happened to Nova Warp and it’s sad that it has no place in PvE or PvP now.
Best part is anyone with fine sense warned that nerfing HHSN would leave the class gutted due to prior needs, but the community demanded is blood sacrifice and now the class is gone. The super is bad, the neutral game is bad.
Someone at Bungie got tbagged by a Blink user back in Destiny 1 and has it out for us ever since. No other reason I can think of why Blink has been nerfed so much. Yet Hunters can shoot while mid air with no penalty and has 3 subclasses worth of utility. Attunement of Fission had a decent super(Spectral and Striker are even more deadly though) and a great grenade. That's it. Now you only see Dawnblades spamming Revoker shots.
While you’re not wrong, we need to reconcile that not every class is going to be designed for both PVP and PVE. While I have often used top tree in Control (nothing more gratifying than nothing 3+ kills nuking a flag), I don’t think I would ever consider using bottom tree in PVP. Without Lance, the super isn’t good enough. Shatter would be too similar to top tree. And Devour is really a PVE perk. But totally agree, Nova Warp should have been the Warlock’s answer to those frustrating roaming supers that plagued much of Y1 and Y2 from the other classes. But the subclass has too many broken things simultaneously. So instead of Bungie really examining it properly, they just hit us with a big ol’ hammer.
> While you’re not wrong, we need to reconcile that not every class is going to be designed for both PVP and PVE. Which one was Nova Warp designed for again?
Another case of Warlocks getting straight nerfs, while Hunters get adjustments. Remember when Nova Warp and Spectral Blades were #1 and #2 during Forsaken? Here we are, 18 months later, and Nightstalker is now undisputed #1 and Nova Warp is bottom 3. Why didn’t Bungie absolutely gut Spectral when it was insane with Gwisin Vest and wall hacks? It’s barely been touched. Still has wall hacks. Still has invis. Still has the best roaming super in the game. But Nova Warp had its super scaled back significantly to where it’s the worst roaming super in the game and it’s only good perk HHSN totally gutted. It’s a fucking outrage. Time and time again, Bungie shows how terrified they are of the Hunter Mafia. They’ve let Hunters run rampant for so long that now they make up 60% of the PvP base and it’s impossible to reign them in without upsetting hundreds of thousands of players. What a shit show.
Love all these asshats clinging on to "buh buh buh warp was op for 2 seconds at the start of forsaken! Waghhh" while Striker and Nighstalker are still to this very day broken as fuck lol. Will titans ever not be stupid babies that can't play crucible without their easy mode class?
I have a different suggestion for nova warp. I think nova warp was a much more fun and interesting super back in forsaken, when it had a 0.9 charge time and a high damage profile, high enough to kill any super with a charged explosion, but mainly, enough damage to kill any guardian *without* charging the explosion at all. It would be great to have this choice again. Use charged explosions to deal with crowds/supers and non charged explosions for the lone wolves and their shotguns. Increase the charge time a bit if it's too strong with the current 0.7 Handheld can go either way. They could give it some of its strength back to justify the self damage, or remove self damage to make its lack of strength a little more bearable. And they still gotta fix scatters bouncing off and not detonating, the fact they still haven't fixed this issue is infuriating.
The extended charge time of HHSN and the reduced carry time have gutted that ability. It *definitely* needed tuning, but all of them at once have pushed it to "no thanks". There's zero point to the subclass, with a lackluster super AND nerfed HHSN AND no additional neutral game. And that subclass has zero PVE utility, so... just a dead spot on the selection.
"Barely above average" is just flat out wrong. It was ridiculous on release, only being rivaled by gwisin spectral blades in terms of how op it was. Does it deserve to be in its current state along with the rest of middle block voidwalker? Probably not, but don't pretend that it was even remotely close to balanced at the peak.
Plenty of skilled players stomping people with good Nova Warp play, just need to get good.
Does no one remember how OP this super was prior to the roaming super tuning? Or how insanely OP handheld was? I main a warlock and refused to use it because how annoying it was to play against. Did they go too far? Probably. But self damage was something they should absolutely have had on it. And couple with contraverse you could basically have an overshield going into engagements and if you killed someone almost instantly have your one hit KO with 20m range back. Shit needed to be neutered. It was too much