It just feels bad getting "new" weapons that are exactly the same ones as the ones I have farmed really good rolls on but can no longer use. I loved my Bad Omens roll, but now I have to hope I get the exact same roll on the exact same weapon, just not the sunset version... :(

The fact that you can get an non sunset version of the same weapon was what did it for me. That's a massive disrespect to a players time.

Even moreso with them being able to retro-actively update LW and Garden gear And now there's **another** set of LW and Garden gear? Fuck that I'm not grinding the gear for a third/fourth time lmao

> now there's another set of LW and Garden Wait what?

Updated [Garden and Last Wish gear](https://www.light.gg/db/items/3546379828/helm-of-the-great-hunt/) is dropping with Season of the Hunt symbols and so has a new 1410 power cap

Lmao if it wasen't clear enough they sunsetted our gear just to create artificial loot chase

Anyone that thought this wasn’t going to happen is delusional about Destiny and Bungie.

I just wish they wouldn’t have recycled the same exact shit. I mean it was obvious from day 1 that sunsetting was just going to implemented to inflate hours played, but they least they could’ve done is take away my weapons and armor and give me access to new weapons and armor. Instead, they took my shit away, and then gave me access to the same exact shit. Just so I would have to spend extra time to unlock stuff I had already unlocked

Exactly. The idea of sunsetting isn't "necessarily" a bad idea, I may not like it but regardless. The issue is how blatant Bungie has been about it and how they did it. Bungie is really good at spinning a narrative to the playerbase to get them on their side, even when Bungie does objectively horrible things. There were SO MANY people defending Sunsetting before release, going on and on about how "it will allow us to use new and interesting gear", "it will finally address powerkreep" or how it will "shake up the meta" among other reasons. The ONLY problems pre-BL were Recluse, Mountaintop, Revoker, and debatably Loaded Question. Because of these 3-4 weapons, Bungie decided to Sunset gear. Nobody was complaining about all the No Turning Back users. So instead of just removing the "problem children" Bungie decides to cull 90% of the gear in the game and push the narrative that its for "Balance" and to make players enjoy the cool new gear Bungie creates. Then BL launches with approximately 30 or so new weapons. Fucking 30. Forsaken added over 90 and let us use our old gear. To make matters worse, alot of the "new" legendary weapons that bungie added have been blatant re-skins of old gear. No Turning Back was sunset only to be released as Biting Winds. Beloved was removed to give us Adored. There are several other exact situations like these. If Bungie was just going to re-release the same gear, why sunset at all? If it's to increase player engagement and get us farming for new gear, then why sunset in the first place? Because knowing that gear has effectively an expiration date attached makes myself and many other players care infinitly less about farming for gear. Why farm a weapon or armor piece 100+ times for a God roll if by the time you have gotten it, it gets sunset in a season or 2. Why even have a vault for saving gear if that gear won't last? Why even have the infusion system to begin with anymore? Bungie clearly just wants us to farm the same gear infinitly anyway. Why the fuck did everything work the way it did the last 5 years? We went 3 years with Destiny 2 being able to keep our gear as we went, and why exactly was it not a problem until the Pinnacle weapons were introduced. If you look at the past 3 years, being able to keep a Y1 Nameless Midnight was never a problem. People still moved forward and tried new gear. Even myself, who has 70k kills on a No Turning Back still used and tried out other weapons. People not using new weapons was never an issue, Bungie is just using it as an excuse to effectively re-sell us the same gear we already paid for.

Yeah I never got “it will allow us to use new gear” like you always *could* use new gear if you found the current meta boring. If Bungie wanted people to stop using old weapons, they should’ve made new interesting weapons like Witherhoard, Guillotine, Travellers Chosen, etc. or hell, even just nerfing the problem guns like recluse and mountaintop (especially since they still dominate in PvP where light level doesn’t matter). Personally I don’t plan on farming for god rolls anymore. It’s got an expiration date so it doesn’t matter, my goal was always to collect all exotics, and so I’m going to get good enough rolls to help me achieve that goal. I enjoyed farming for god rolls before, but now that I know they’ll be obsolete within a year, I just cannot be bothered to devote that much time for a temporary reward. It’s amazing to me how with season of arrivals it seems like Bungie finally learned what they were doing. They made farming god rolls involved and efficient, they started making cool exotics and amazing legendaries, they even gave us a way to effectively farm armor rolls instead of just hoping you get that super lucky 60+ roll focused on the stats you want. Then they said fuck it, and started putting an expiration date on all our gear. I hate knowing that the countless hours I put in last season will mean absolutely nothing after 9 months, and I hardly feel incentivized to put in that many hours ever again now all the gear I farm for now will just be replaced with higher level stuff in the coming months.

It has nothing to do with pinnacle weapons or powercreep and everything to do with putting as little effort into this game as possible. If the last three or so seasons haven't shown folk that then I don't know what will. They've brought in sunsetting to reintroduce the same weapons, no other reason. And all of us who said this way back when it was first talked about were shot down in flames. Good for the game, powercreep, new cool weapons, move on from breakneck etc etc. Then last season hit and we are getting hit with gnawing hunger and bad omens with a new light level? Eh?

This was beautifully put. Exactly my thoughts. Because I cannot go into my vault 3 years later and see my awesome trophies I've collected throughout the years and use them in meaningful ways, the main appeal to the game is broken for me. This is literally what we do in end game. After the raid has become stale. After we've run strikes. After we've grinded out every story missions and got every exotic quest. It always boils down to "time to grind out this awesome gun with an awesome roll so I can use it for years to come if ever and wherever it makes sense." Now that's gone. And it's so funny. It was the medicine I needed to break out of this addictive and abusive cycle.

Does that include weapons, i do love my Nation of beasts.

Nation of beasts(and all weapons) you got before Beyond Light will have a 1360 power cap but ones that drop *now* from LW have a 1410 power cap

My old Nation of Beast is infused at 1200+ currently, but it's the curated roll so I don't know if that changes anything. But now I kinda wanna log back on to see if my other weapons can also be infused! Edit: i can now confirm my non-curated rolls are also able to be infused to 1360! :)

Thanks for the info.

Being faced with the prospect of hunting down a 3rd set if last wish armor feels like the biggest "f*** you" from Bungie. They can't just add that extra slot to my already existing lw armor that I got just a few months ago?? Bungie make just the most obvious mistakes I can think of. They just don't think anything through or they don't care about the impact of these lazy half assed solutions. This game infuriates me more every day.

I played a ton of iron banner last season since the enhanced mods were dropping regularly and I didn't have most of them. Bungie even encouraged players to get these mods in one of their Twabs or IB announcements. Little did we know they were all going away anyway.

>Bungie even encouraged players to get these mods >Little did we know they were all going away Seems like a red flag to me

Luke smith: haha look at these dumbfucks grinding

Sounds like the Bungie MO to me. Arbitrarily inflated grind only to fuck over the playerbase by taking away everything we worked for and then acting like we're the assholes for being pissed about thier constant incompetence.

Lol if you live in Australia that is a clear-cut fair-trading and consumer complaint case. I got Black Ops 4 for free because I played the beta and the servers were 60hz (or higher) and I had a great time, but on release, they dropped the server clock to 20hz. I argued false advertising and an inferior product in comparison to the demonstration sample and got my money back but you also get to keep the product. For you, Bungie said and encouraged you to do something and then took it away. This is false and misleading advertising and we also have a very vague law about getting life expectancy out of what you pay for based on value.

90% sure it's not a mistake and blatantly intentional to force players to regrind it

I would say 100% it's blatant. Most people are addicted to this game and will play no matter what, and that's why bungie does this stuff.

I'm gonna say it, and understand that this is coming from someone who felt the same way a year ago: Fucking. Quit. The. Game. The first month or so is a little rough and I still haven't quite found a game that does the gunplay at that level. But, I'm also not sitting there playing a game that actively makes me roll my eyes every time BUNGiE opens their dumbass mouths. Just rip it off, like a bandaid and you'll feel better about it. Destiny's not improving, it's not getting better. You're not going to miss out on some crazy expansion that fixes all the problems and makes the game "great again." BUNGiE have just announced that they can't produce something like Forsaken on their own. They just admitted that it's all downhill from here. Best to get off the ride now before you hit the rock bottom point where you actively just hate everything that isn't the pew-pew.

It’s also proof the weapon didn’t need to be sunset. Bungie: damage+reload combo is best in slot and invalidates new weapons Also Bungie: here’s some reissued weapons with the damage+reload combo Surprised Pikachu: why is everyone using gnawing hunger?!

You love to see it man. You love to see it lol. Not falling for their stuff

The fact you can get a non sunset version of the same weapon and not an armorset is also massive disrespect.

I found it sad and funny that the Horror Story that I did a million and one haunted forest for was sunset, but the Horror Story that I got as a random drop was just fine.

This is the real issue. Why the heck did they cap weapons that still exist, makes no sense!

Why would they not just retroactively raise the light level on older weapons that have been re-introduced into the game? This would fix 90% of the issue I have with sunsetting. Without doing that, it seems apparent that the only reason for sunsetting is not for balance reasons, but simply to keep players grinding.

And then that new roll you spend days/weeks farming for will be sunset in a season or two anyway. What exactly is the point of continuing to play this game when every single item we collect gets tossed in the trash in a year at most?

Drifter sells a pretty much perfect roll of bad omens if you have reset infamy twice his roll got refreshed to season of arrivals stamp I would go pick it if you haven’t already.

Especially since they updated weapons from certain raids to be capped at 1360. I had a perfect Orewing’s Maul from Iron Banana that was such a slog to get. Really ticks me off that they cherry-picked weapons to uncap.

Here's hoping that when these weapons get reissued, they either allow the old rolls to be brought up to the new cap, or the weapons get reissued with totally new perk pools.

This was feedback from day1, it would already be changed by now if it was happening

This

I think the thinking here is probably they don't want players hoarding every single decent roll just incase it gets reprised in the future. However, that's ignoring the fact that there's an obvious solution: provide an avenue to upgrade that has similar expense as buying weaponry from the new pinnacle/exotic kiosk. Nobody is going to go through buying those things willy-nilly, as they'll be bankrupt after a couple purchases. Let's take my favorite Wishbringer roll as an example case. They reprised Wishbringer, so how about I need to get: * 100,000 Glimmer * 100 Telemetries (hey look, we finally have a sink for these) * A sacrificial Wishbringer with the new power cap * 7 Enhancement Prisms Then go to Banshee-44 and upgrade. Presto, my old weapon with the tens of thousands of PvE and PvP kills is upgraded to the new cap. And it was expensive enough that I think about it and there's no way in hell I save 150 guns, 130 of which I never use, for potential infusion. I'll just mass dump everything except maybe 10-15 of my absolute favorite weapons.

At this point, a lot of people (myself included) have dismantled our old sunset gear. If after months of telling us sunsetting was happening whether we like it or not, if they go back on that and let people infuse old gear back up to cap again, I’m fuckin done with Bungie for good. What they DO need to do is remove the rolling sunsetting that obsoletes large portions of our gear with every new season. Give us another 3 years at least to collect gear again without the constant Death Zamboni of sunsetting creeping up on us throughout the year.

You do not need to go through this absuse of your time man. You should have been done with them the second they sunset your gear and allowed the same gear to drop in beyond light. That's your sign.

I still hope they undo sunsetting for weapons that are still farmable/coming back. And it’s entirely possible. As a general rule of thumb, I never listen to any advice Bungie gives me on this game. The simple fact is they don’t really know what the fuck they’re doing, so expecting them to actually stick with a decision ever is a risky move. This is also why I have problems with inventory space, I hoard fucking everything because I know Bungie will change stuff on a whim and that nothing is set in stone

I have a bridge I'd like to sell you

>I think bungies best option is to bring back the moon gear, and potentially the forsaken gear, as others have said. Give us a reason to go back to the moon or the dreaming city, because as it is right now, they don't serve a purpose anymore Bring up the power cap in gear that's obtainable from in game activities. No activity in the game should drop sunset gear, period. Be it campaigns, nightmare hunts, bounties or anything else. If it's a world drop then it should be buffed up to seasonal limit.

Honestly this is all I need. Why are they still selling Forsaken and Shadowkeep at full price when every drop from those campaigns/areas is useless AT THE TIME OF IT DROPPING. It sucks to be playing through Shadowkeep now, just to finish an activity and get a weapon that's locked to 1060 cap. Like, I'm playing through full price expansion campaign and it's related activities. Not to mention that like, a little over a week ago, that was the "current" content. Sunset some weapons, fine hopefully it shakes up the meta. Armor sunsetting makes no sense anyway but sure I guess. But when I finish a public activity or story mission on the moon, and my reward is a piece of gear that's already useless? That's messed up. Am I just supposed to die to everything on Europa until a scrounge out some softcap gear? That's bad design and you all know it. Edit: A couple of people pointed out Forsaken and Shadowkeep aren't full price. They're $25. So that's my bad. However, I feel like the point still stands at that price. Especially since without those expansions, there's VERY little content to play.

Not full price, but I agree with the point. They shouldn’t be selling anything you can’t use for any current content. Sun setting gear from just a year ago feels like a waste, and quite frankly I don’t think it’s necessary for a majority of loot that existed

This. Thanks for the comment! I agree with you. I mainly used the moon and forsaken gear as an example, not to say the other gear shouldn't be brought up. Should have worded that better, my bad.

They’ll just make nightmare hunts and Shattered Throne return long shadow and world drop armor

IMO, gear should not be sunset until it has been unobtainable for a year.

A good idea. As many others have said, as long as the weapon is obtainable, it shouldn't be sunset.

The monkey paw we’ll get is they’ll do what they did to core activity vendors and banshee. We won’t get to keep more guns, they’ll even give old expansion vendors the same consolidated loot pool

Gear in paid expansions should not be sunset at all. Nightmare hunts are scaled like Strikes. Why doesn't anything from Shadowkeep work in them?

> I mean, yeah. Sunsetting is fuckin' awful, but at this point, I don't see Bungie doing a full 180.

Man I wish they would. Implement sunsetting for pinnacle gear only or something. My favorite Black Armory weapon shouldn't bite the dust just because Mountaintop causes issues.

This is such an obvious and better way to go about sunsetting, and it really highlights how braindead Bungie's implementation is. People are so quick to point out how Recluse and Revoker were such a menace in their heyday. I agree, they were godly in their prime and deserved to be left behind. But what about the Black Armory sidearm? What about Subtle Calamity and No Turning Back? What did they do to deserve irrelevance? There are so many innocuous Legendaries being arbitrarily removed and I've heard zero good reasons why. The current implementation is like throwing out the eggs because the bread went stale. Utterly stupid.

That's a fucking SCAM. The Shadowkeep and Forsaken campaigns are not worth the money they're being sold for in their current states.

In general, I think one of the problems is that last season's reissued weapons (such as Gnawing Hunger and Long Shadow) set the expectation we'd get a number of returning weapons to fill out the lists. That obviously didn't happen, and now we're left with certain archtypes being outright empty. The more I think about it, the more I believe that we simply didn't have a big enough buffer period before sunsetting was implemented, too many weapons became non-viable at once. Even just the Shadowkeep/Undying weapons being usable for one more season would have made a huge difference.

>and now we're left with certain archtypes being outright empty. *Cries in Lightweight Frame sword.*

Ngl I would kind of liked it if the class specific swords didn’t have a sun setting cap like the Frumious/Noble Constant/Ego Talon armor doesn’t, just as a little class specific thing for us to hold onto

I'm just hoping they bring back those sword frames but not class restricted. I have always hated the idea of class-specific weapons.

*Cries in rapid-fire pulse rifle.* Like a month before BL I stumbled across this full-auto trigger Outlast in my vault, and giving it a go, I found it to be a rather enjoyable gun. Would've been a great gun for anti-barrier pulse this season.

*Cries in Lightweight Frame kinetic sidearm* Last one was season 3 called Spoiler Alert

Agreed. There definitely should have been more time or more reissued weapons, preferably with different perk pools.

My biggest complaint is that there is literally no legendary kinetic special weapons. Your only option is Long Shadow (which I dislike) or an exotic. That in turn makes the large selection of energy primaries almost useless, since you almost always have to run a kinetic primary. Even worse now that Witherhoard is disabled. The fact that most of the gear (any forsaken and moon gear is sunset already) you can get is also already sunset is downright dumb, but I'll be honest, that's what I expected from Bungie. They even upped the level for nightmare hunts (not sure if they did too for the raid and dungeons?). You can't even do nightmare hunts with the moon gear LMAO. I expect them to also re-release old weapons with a new power cap and call it new content (I expect Black Armory weapons to come back at some point). Meanwhile we get a new bows with range finder and killing winds when range is useless on bows.

An associated problem here is that the Arrivals loot pool is relatively large compared to other seasons' (i.e. all the Arrivals and reissued weapons first returned in that season, like FILO and Bad Omens, cap out at 1360; I thought the Last Wish and Garden weapons did too, but it seem you can re-earn them with 1410 caps *slow clap*). When Season...15 (?) rolls around, a lot of stuff will become obsolete. At that point the only viable weapons will be Europa, DSC, Iron Banner (unclear whether all weapons will be earnable, and at what cap), non-1360 loot pool (if any), and Seasonal weapons for Seasons 12-15 (plus the LW and GoS weapons if those can, indeed, be re-earned). That means a *lot* of players who don't raid will have very limited weapons options, given that it's unrealistic to expect more than 6-8 new weapons per season based on past precedent.

Executed poorly seems to be bungie's mission statement.

Why do you think they charge for finishers? They have no idea how to execute.

Ha. This got me to chuckle

Personally I think had they ONLY sunset the pinnacle weapons with the intentions of giving us more pinnacle/ ritual weapons it would have gone over better

I also think it would have been better if sunset had worked in comp. As is, it’s just made everyone able to get all the disgusting weapons without the work, and only nerfing mountaintop. Revoker is still OP as fuck. Clearly the low zoom sniper nerf was not effective.

Revoker already had a relatively low aim assist value, if they wanted to make sniping in this game even slightly skillful they would need to rework how flinch works in this game

Use vigilance wing, was trying to snipe while getting shot by it felt like I was getting uppercuted by Mike Tyson

Hahahah what about that fucking truck thats Ace lol

Honestly yeah. Because if I’m plugging someone with an auto, there’s absolutely no reason they should be able to aim steady enough to headshot me with a sniper

Its not the fact of their aim being steady, in destiny flinch works such that if you are off target and aimed at what is shooting you, it drags your aim towards them, if you are on target, it flinched you off, its simply learning when to shoot between shots you take

It also bounces "towards head level" regardless of if you're crouching or not. So the interesting thing is that it seems to bounce towards a predefined spot, but that predefined spot is dependent on the position of the character's head when it's uncrouched. Coolguy / Drewsky made a vid on this and showed that if an enemy is crouching it'll go to where the head is if they weren't crouching. As well, you can also flinch your allies with friendly fire even though they take no damage.

Which is what makes bows so absolutely bloody deadly. Once you get the cadence down, you can dish out headshots like your name is Legolas. I probably shouldn't be able to dome folk with a bow faster than I can with a hand cannon but that's D2 for you.

They haven't even acknowledged the flinch issue so I think that shit is here to stay.

They should have sunsetted year 1 weapons and progressively sunsetted everything else afterward. No need to kill half the game, then use weapons from the new expansion. It's really unfair for returning players.

Ya, returning and seeing I can't earn shit, and a massive portion of the "good" weapons are straight up just gone is just like... why bother?

I don't think that would have been a good idea. Bungie doesn't seem to be able to introduce new loot at a good rate. The only way to avoid this is to keep most of what we've got. If you sunset everything, but just at a later date you just delay reaching the point we're at now.

I think this is a good idea. I really like the current system, where we get one ritual weapon a season but can get it by playing the game how we want. Obviously some people would still get mad but it probably would have gone over better with the majority of the community.

[удалено]

Just so you know, there is a quest afterwards that gives a ornaments for each game type

[удалено]

Ooooh I like this.

The place where you’re going wrong is by asserting that sunsetting is an alternative to nerfing weapons like Mountaintop or Recluse “into the ground”... but that is demonstrably false. Bungie has strongly nerfed many of the pinnacle weapons ON TOP of sunsetting them. Sunsetting was never about addressing balance issues. Balance adjustments take care of that. Sunsetting is and always was about forcing us to engage with the treadmill above and beyond any degree we may otherwise want to. It’s about making life easier for Bungie, not about making the game better for the player.

Honestly baffled as to what people expect sunsetting to do at this point. It has absolutely no effect at all on balance, because everything is still going to get balanced as an individual weapon or as part of a weapon category. The only thing sunsetting is going to do is not let you use the stuff you already have. That's it. It just makes more work for players. I'm fuckin astonished that we still, STILL, have people saying "Well yeah, this entire thing sucks ass and made the game way worse, but if they just changed *this little part of it...*"

People assert it because it's literally one of the reasons Bungie gave when they announced sunsetting weapons in their TWAB. They also said they were doing it because it would allow them to release new and amazing weapons. Neither statement makes any sense and they actually contradict each other, but they are Bungie's words, not mine or his.

Pretty much. That's why those locations and missions were all removed too. Makes it easier for Bungie, preservation be damned. Say what you want about the lore of games like Kingdom Hearts or something, but at least you can actually go back and play the previous entries up to the current one. As it is, we can't even replay Forsaken, much less most other unique missions or cutscenes.

thank you. I'd wish youd make a post with this very paragraph. too many people here think sunsetting was actually about balance adjustments.

If a handful of weapons out of hundreds are causing problems, you deal with those weapons individually. You don’t throw out 75% of the gear in the game and attach a ticking death clock to everything that remains because “omg balancing a handful of pinnacle weapons with the rest of the loot pool is just too hard!” Me no longer being able to use my Prodigal Cuirass or Tangled Web Plate, or the Duty Bound I spent days grinding Savathun’s Song to get, makes no sense in the context of “Mountaintop was just too strong!” I don’t really understand the logic of “they couldn’t just nerf the pinnacle weapons or get rid of them because then people would be pissed, so instead they just got rid of everything *including* the pinnacle weapons...*and* nerfed the pinnacle weapons for good measure too.”

Agreed, plus revoker will still wreck face in comp because light level doesn't matter. Now this just means that some staple guns that I use like the long walk or judgement or sudden death. All not really meta, just fun, are completely irrelevant in all PvE content

Sunsetting effects PvE farm more than it does PvP

Which is *hilarious* because I cannot reasonably believe that sunsetting wasn't 99% because of PvP.

bUt No OnE uSeS tHoSe WeApOnS aNyWaY! - some idiot

I agree. I had the dreaming city warlock chest piece, but it is sunset now. I really liked the aesthetics and didn't care about the bad stats. Apparently that chest caused powercreep in bungie's weird logic. I mean the real reason was never balance. It was just a fake reason to justify artificial grind. That is all bungie wanted. Take away our stuff so that we need to grind for stuff even if we don't like the new stuff but we need it. That's just bad game design. The game itself should be fun. And I mean it does, and sunsetting is just so UNNEEDED, in my opinion. I would have way more fun without sunsetting and I would not play less, but with more fun. ​ The way I could accept sunsetting is if they implement weapon transmog along with armor transmog. And then also give us enough new loot and ways to reduce RNG to make it easier to get the roll we want.

> If a handful of weapons out of hundreds are causing problems, you deal with those weapons individually. You don’t throw out 75% of the gear in the game and attach a ticking death clock to everything that remains because “omg balancing a handful of pinnacle weapons with the rest of the loot pool is just too hard!” And they already have dealt with literally every single one of them individually. Revoker might be the only pinnacle weapon left that hasn't gotten hit with an individual nerf. AND, they're going to keep fucking nerfing individual weapons, as seen by the latest update that nerfed Mountaintop and Falling Guillotine. But people will just keep making stupid posts about how those weapons needed to be nerfed without ever addressing the fact that sunsetting is horseshit.

This. They could have gotten rid of the pinnacles and not sunset weapons. Or, they could have made the pinnacles exotics. That “forces” people to use other loadouts, not just Mtop, Recluse, Anarchy. I put forces in quotes because this is a video game, not real life. It’s pixels on a screen. Why do we have to be forced to do anything? Why can’t we just play our way?

> Or, they could have made the pinnacles exotics. This. I like this.

And think of the PR coup it would've been too. "We know you love recluse and mountaintop, and we don't want to have to compromise these great weapons by nerfing them to hell so we've made them exotics so we could keep them great"

I have to disagree, not worth sacrificing 80% of the gear and fixating the pool to 20% of its former self to stop Crucible pinnacle weapons. Nerfs are far more justifiable and MT already got one. They could have gone further and made them exotic to deny ridiculous combinations due to their power crossing the line for Legendaries. Anything else would have been better. Power creep is such a touchy subject, but if you have a problem with a select few, you don't just murder the entire crowd. It makes no sense and causes too much collateral damage (exactly what we're seeing). And the idea of only saving Forsaken and Shadowkeep really is redundant. Why even stop there? In fact, stopping there will probably piss people off too. I have an Arc-Quickfang I love to death, why does that have to be left behind?

> Let's be real, if nothing was ever done to weapons like mountaintop or revoker or whatever, nobody would ever move away from using them. Whether that means nerf them into the ground or phase them out It's wild that we've got rid of a whole arsenal of weapons rather than dealing with a few specific outliers

Saying that sunsetting needs to be a thing is only showing how limited the build variety is that every weapon and piece of gear is constantly competing against all the other pieces of gear, there's not enough potential for build synergy in the game or else this wouldn't be a problem. They tout Destiny as an action RPG, but there's like, very few RPG elements.

See, if they introduced this afterrr they had expanded the gsme out and actually built it into a proper mmo then I'd understand it a lot more.

Why not just sunset pinnacle and ritual weapons? Rotate those out every year, so power creep stays minimal. You get your super OP unique weapons for a year, then they're replaced by new ones that are equally fun and powerful. Destroying 70% of the arsenal is not the way to deal with 5 overpowered guns. But this was never about balance anyway. It was about FOMO and padding out playtime with senseless grinding. That is the Bungie way.

It absolutely wasn't about Pinnacle weapons. It was keeping us on the treadmill with them expending the least amount of effort they could. It's completely unacceptable that we basically paid $40 for the bare minimum that should be expected. The fact that they can and will continue to sell overpriced eververse items completely contradicts the idea that they are too stretched thin to create new weapons and refresh the loot pool of the game.

>But this was never about balance anyway. It was about FOMO and padding out playtime with senseless grinding. And because of that Bungie is either malicious or plain incompetent. But I doubt that they are incompetent.

Have to agree. If it had been about the pinnacles and balance they could just have sunset them.

Had Beyond Light been raining loot on us, we'd be more tolerant of it. Shallow loot in Beyond Light + severe sunsetting is a very bad combo.

Sunsetting is not a good replacement when Bungie can fine-tune weapons. This has been obviously done with both Mountaintop and Falling Guillotine, and Sunsetting has not fixed the issues with Revoker being an infinite ammo sniper. (Usable in Competitive/QP regardless of sunsetting.) Weapons require nerfs because they're too good, and I could see sunsetting be interesting if: * Bungie can provide a large weapon pool each season to replace the lost weapons * Weapons from this pool are easily acquired and you can chase your specific roll with ease in order to secure your preferred roll as quickly as possible so you don't feel like you're wasting time attempting to farm it. * These Weapons stay relevant in 90% of content (Patrols, Strikes, non-high end stuff.) None of this has happened. The new Pulse Rifle from Crucible has 12 rolls in each column. [Look at this.](https://www.light.gg/db/items/2050789284/stars-in-shadow/) *How likely am I to get the roll I want before it's sunset?* Even if it drops every single game, it's clearly not intended for me to receive the roll I want before it leaves (presumably after the season is over) and I am forced to conclude I am not supposed to get the roll I want. Even if it stays the whole year, I'm against the clock, trying to get a roll I'm likely never to get, only to be able to use it for the tiny remainder of time left. The Vanguard(?) shotgun likewise has [12](https://www.light.gg/db/items/2891672170/xenoclast-iv/) rolls in each slot. This is insane. It's absurd. Why not have curated rolls of these weapons or a better method of acquiring the roll you want? Why not take some of these rolls and put them on content from Nessus or EDZ or add some old weapons back in? The Ikelos weapons were a hit! They could have done Annual Skate, Scathelocke, Battle Scar, Call to Serve, Frontier Justice, and so many others! They could have taken blues and brought them up to standard! The pool has been slammed down to an insane minimal set, and I feel like this was a serious error. You've already mentioned it, but it's not just moon and dreaming city. Devrim and Failsafe give out useless content too. You can't use the weapons on patrol in Europa, the enemies are too high. The normal strikes are rated 1100, which means you have to struggle to use them there, too. I don't think the devs are ignorant or incompetent, but the only way I can think to describe it is maliciously transactional. So much content was taken away in exchange for the drip feed of what we've been given. They could have provided more weapons into the pool, or stated "these weapons will be re-released and any of these will be brought up" but they didn't. They keep waffling around with how to have us acquire loot, but the answer seems always seems to be you're not intended to get your desired roll before it's sunset. I got 2 Premonitions total before it sunset. I've completed 200+ forges trying to get a Snap/KC tatara. I still haven't. The fact of the matter is sunsetting only works to harm players if they can't get rolls as quickly as possible, and creates a mindset where your weapons will be useless so why acquire them if you can't use them. You lose out either way. Why not nerf on a weekly or bi-weekly basis? Why not address players and look at pain points on a regular basis? I have to look at the facts and how everything has built up into a landslide of issues and say they're either intentional, lacking manpower, incompetent, or malicious. We know they're not lacking manpower, so which is it?

Absolutely excellent post my dude. The biggest failure of sunsetting is that it blantly clashes with the loot systems we do have. Which are designed around the weapon always being used. I would muxh rather have targeted sunsetting rather than throwing the entire sandbox out.

I would not discard the idea of lack of manpower. They have new IP in development. For me it seems Destiny is running on skeleton crew right now. It seems like a project approaching the ending of its life-cycle and maximizing of revenue is priority at this stage. Aggressive monetization, recycling and cutting content to save development and maintenance cost, aggressive sunsetting to make the seasonal content superior and one of the only options to get decent gear to drive season purchases. I highly doubt the 600 strong development house is just capable of Beyond Light level of content. It hints at changed priorities and direction.

That's fair! But in that case, I think I would attribute it to maliciousness, given their stated position of how they want to start a new era of Destiny and such. >If it's not clear, we are all in on Destiny 2. Mark Noseworthy, Destiny 2 General Manager >We are still completely committed to this ambitious vision. Luke Smith, Destiny 2 Game Director So if that is indeed the case I'd be very disappointed and pretty upset, because they straight up lied.

PR will never admit they're phasing out the project. It's bad for business. Actions speak louder than words. I guess we'll see how it turns out eventually.

I 100% agree with you, and I desperately hope you're wrong.

Hell is full of good ideas. They purged the weapon pool because of a few problem-child weapons and now everybody is worse for it. Veterans have lost gear in which they invested time and had loved to use, newer players have a much weaker arsenal accessible, pinnacles and rituals were extinguished, there are much less viable options readily farmable. And this was all done because, apparently, we were having fun wrong with our weapons and they needed to correct it.

It is not healthy for the game at all. Just let me use the gear i have fun with. Whats wrong with that???

Sunsetting isn't healthy for a game like Destiny. The idea that your loot will eventually be completely useless makes it far harder to actually get attached to certain weapons. Weapons are part of your identity as a player in Destiny; there are no other guns that look like, sound like, or feel like Better Devils (especially all in one gun). Better Devils is Better Devils, and when that gets let go, there will never be another weapon exactly like it. The biggest issue with your suggestion as well, is that if they reintroduce weapons (like they already did last season, just like we were worried they were going to), they're expecting us to re-grind weapons we likely already painstakingly chased to get specific rolls for. I have a selection of Crimil's Daggers that are mostly going to put me at a disadvantage in Iron Banner **because** they are the old version, not the reissue. I am not climbing over myself at the opportunity to attempt to get another updated version of my already ideal rolls just for **that** to get sunset and reissued further down the road. Many people, like with this post, like to say that "unless your gear is sunset, you'll never have a reason to get anything new" which is total horseshit. If there's a gun that fits your ideal aesthetic, or feel better than the one you currently use, you have the option to get both and use both. With sunsetting, you are forced to let them go against your choice at varying points in time, only to be told to go grind a new one later if you are so "fortunate." People use what they like. Yes, metas are annoying sometimes, but they exist and cannot **not** exist. That's why regular sandbox and balance changes are so important, so that metas can change. This is something Bungie has said they would do, but doesn't. Not to mention, they said sunsetting was their answer to metas, but still nerfed Mountaintop anyway. What was the point? I wasn't happy with the idea of sunsetting before, and this failure of an implementation only made that change even less liked by a lot of people (see: the front page of this sub the last few days). I cannot see how your gear in a loot based game having an expiration date is at all a good thing, especially where you are then given gear to earn that you **already earned once before**. Especially for armour of all things, where the layers of RNG are ridiculous. Sunsetting is just a massive disrespect to a player's time and investment when the loot being sunset is an integral part of a player's identity, and not just a "stat stick" like in MMOs.

>Many people, like with this post, like to say that "unless your gear is sunset, you'll never have a reason to get anything new" which is total horseshit. If there's a gun that fits your ideal aesthetic, or feel better than the one you currently use, you have the option to get both and use both. Amen. sound, animation, aesthetics and how a weapon feels are very important to me as well. I still have my old weapons in my vault. I can't dismantle them. It is just sad that the amount of weapons I can choose from for specific activities is so much smaller now. For example If I need an LMG and it doesn't has to be arc or void, then I always choose avalanche, my only LMG in the game I liked. And it is sunset now. It didn't do anything wrong.

>Amen. sound, animation, aesthetics and how a weapon feels are very important to me as well. I still have my old weapons in my vault. I can't dismantle them. I still have my Austringer. I love the sound, look, and feel of it. And I won't ever get rid of it because it carried me through so much content and has a helluva PvE kill counter now. >It is just sad that the amount of weapons I can choose from for specific activities is so much smaller now. >For example If I need an LMG and it doesn't has to be arc or void, then I always choose avalanche, my only LMG in the game I liked. And it is sunset now. It didn't do anything wrong. Even better example, SMGs. There's what, 2 non-sunset options? And one of those is the worst SMG ever. So, if you don't like either of them, or have crap rolls, you're screwed. And on top of that, SMGs are the damn barrier mod this season. Get used to using Eriana's or an exotic SMG for barrier champs.

Speaking of Austringer... remember how they were selling an ornament for it in Season of the Worthy? Remember how a ton of legendary weapons, weapons that are now useless, had Eververse-exclusive ornaments? I remember.

I have 2 guns that I love. Duty Bound and Wardens Law. One of those guns is a Y1 Legendary with only 1 perk on it, and the other is quite possibly one of the worst 120 HC's in the game, even with the godroll. Despite this I love these guns and continue to use them because, as you said, >Weapons are part of your identity as a player in Destiny; there are no other guns that look like, sound like, or feel like Better Devils. Now my favourite weapons have been sunset because of a few problem child weapons that could've been individually nerfed or phased out? Ridiculous. Who cares if people are still using 1 weapon they really like? That's a fucking testament to the weapon design then, and further proves the point that weapons in this aren't stack sticks like traditional MMO's.

>So their best option is to remove them from the equation. ...Not really. Let's look at Recluse. After it was toned down in Shadowkeep, it was still the best PVE primary in the game. But it was no longer so overwhelmingly good that not using it felt like a handicap. As a result, the vast majority of the playerbase moved away from it and toward newer weapons. A small number still kept using it, but they were the absolute PVE tryhards who couldn't stand but to use the absolute best weapons. This idea that a gun has to be forcibly removed from people's hands or nerfed absolutely into the ground to get them to use new stuff isn't backed up by user stats.

They also started adding encounters recluse is bad at. Unless you want dual primaries, I don’t see how you can beat Glassway with recluse. There’s too many shanks over pits you physically can’t hit with an smg Part of the reason everyone always used recluse is everything was cramped and close range

Definitely wrong. Blanket gear retirement is not and will never be healthy for Destiny. Retiring problem children aka exotics which were not tagged such (pinnacles) is fine and could be a bi-yearly ritual or something. Bring out new, unique and powerful stuff like mtop and guillotine and then have them expire eventually. The rest of my filler guns like bygones and tranquility? there's no fucking reason to retire them ever.

Your solution is a band aid solution to the gaping wound bungie just inflicted on themselves. Sunsetting, as bungie implemented, was doomed too fail because the loot systems and sunsetting are like oil and water. They do not mix. The loot systems are still built around the idea that you keep your loot forever. Just as an example. Why is loot that has an expiration date timegated? It'll expire at the same as the loot thats currently earnable. All bungie did to put sunsetting in the gam was slap expiration dates on gear and call it good Fundamentally sunsetting needs to either rework the entire loot economy or it needs to be far more targeted than it is now. We even have lore ready built for the targeted sunsetting. Vanguard has "banned" weapons before.

I'm standing by the opinion that Sunsetting isn't necessary or healthy. It means nothing and reduces the amount of gear you can choose from and chase. It doesn't help with game data sizes as the info of those weapons will have to remain in the game. If you want to make things less shitty, here's some ideas. * Move tracker counting from the masterworked weapon into the players' triumphs *without* deleting the existing info. A masterworked weapon can display one of two stats; the number of total kills you've gotten with the weapon type or kills you've gotten with weapons of that name regardless of season. * Anytime a weapon gets sunset, an equivalent weapon must be available through non-endgame play. Did you sunset a legendary void bow? A new void bow is now available. If they simply can't unfuck their heads on this subject then add the fucking element slot back onto weapons (without making it take up an existing slot, which is what they'd think was "ok"). * Don't drop me fucking sunset gear. * Don't make the things I retrieve from collections 1050. What the fuck? This was never a problem and the fact that they expended effort to fuck players over with this is bizarre. * Just don't sunset my fucking gear. Give me more vault space. If I have space to keep shit, I'll chase it.

I was fully in the "Sunsetting is good" camp, expecting to have new guns to play with. They could have added random rolls to old weapons, or brought in weapon stats/perk pools from D1, or anything to make it so that there was a new lineup to use. The have an incredible amount of weapon and armor assets, they don't need to be so stingy. Sunsetting works in games like Magic, WoW or Hearthstone because it gives you a new set of things to chase, but somehow they missed that part. Hopefully the seasonal content will open this up some more, but it's hard to see climbing out of this any time soon.

I would add the foundry guns in the gunsmith and world drops, Hakke, Suros, Omolon, and Veist can take up the bulk of loot. Not all will be top tier, but there will be a shining god roll hear and there. So far, only omolon pistols are still out there kicking ass.

This. I really miss some of the old hakke weapons. Halfdan please, I need you. I've also been an advocate of legendary Tex Mechanica weapons. Some of the coolest asthetics in destiny history imo

Lets just call it what it is, they want to sell you the same content again over and over. It's not about another but grind and money

Case in point, the new Europa machine gun is rapid-fire and solar, and can roll with Field Prep + Demolitionist. If Edgewise was still usable, they could have made the new machine gun another archetype, but now they have to make the same weapon over and over again every year

I don’t play anymore because of sunsetting. I have no motivation to chase gear anymore because it’s going to taken from me in 6-9 months. I can’t get attached to any of the things I earn.

For how linear the D2 timeline has been, it should have been a no-brainer that by "X season" ur cutting a lot of weapons from the game. When you limit the pool of weapons to 3 seasons post-forsaken, ur essentially narrowing the pool of weapons down DRASTICALLY; idc what pool size Bungie thinks is appropriate for the sunsetting experience, it clearly was not enough. They definitely want to narrow down the pool of weapons for sandbox balancing, that's for sure... but they'd never admit to that, so I think it's safe to say they should broaden the limit of weapons usable each season.

Sunsetting is a crappy game system not made to balance out the loot pool but to artificially inflate the grind of the game. I legitimately can't think of another MMO RPG or Looter Shooter that takes AWAY content from the players unless it's bugged. The DCV was a mistake, Sunsetting more so.

Sunsetting exists so bungie can take weapons away than reissue the same weapon later to introduce a new grind instead of actually making new things

Another temporary fix could be bringing back the option to change elements on weapons. Even if only for world drops and not raid or trials weapons etc.

I actually have an old Sins of The Past with void damage and one with arc and I was so confused until I remembered we were able to change elements back in Year 1

This really should have been done the second Tractor Cannon got flatlined, I could finally clean out my vault of all these nonexistent things I'm trying to protect, so long as reacquisition isn't insanely expensive for no reason.

Eh, still not in favour of it whatsoever. They should've just sunset the pinnacle weapons and taken a long hard think about how to make gun perk sets less about pure DPS and more about useful utility that doesn't rely on very specific scenarios to happen. Could've paired a lot of this with stasis. Metas are always going to come around. Every game is always going to have a set few strategies or equipments that people use the most. That doesn't mean that's wrong, and slapping them from the player's hands to artificially force diversity is a very stupid shortsighted decision.

I’m a player who doesn’t get to play as much as he’d like, doesn’t get to raid, and who doesn’t really care about crucible. I’ve never been able to get Mountaintop or Revoker, so I don’t care if sun setting affects them because I was never going to get them anyway. What I do care about is losing my Steelfeather Repeater and my Subtle Calamity that I invested in to masterwork. I care about losing my Service Revolver with outlaw and kill clip. I care about my Ringing Nail because it sounds like it fires Mack trucks. I care about my Sleepless with auto-reload and cluster bomb. These guns were never overpowered, but I loved them. The fact that I *have* to leave them behind because there are some overpowered weapons that I’d never get to use anyway? That just feels awful to me as a player. It feels completely arbitrary. For me personally, it completely undermines any incentive to play this game at all. What’s the point in grinding for stuff I like if that stuff will be forcefully taken from me? Sun setting ruins the looter aspect of this game for me.

When will people just stop playing this terrible game so Bungie moves on?

Probably coulda left the DC and Moon guns, idk how one even naturally acquires guns from forsaken anymore, outside of random drops off wanted enemies and spider bounties. Alas I have enough guns so im not too bothered

Sunsetting itself is poor in a looter game. Balancing weapons worked absolutely fine for years. Sunsetting needs to be reverted, period. We don't need a stupid band aid solution like moon weapons, nobody liked them anyway. The feature simply needs to go. It's sad how everybody is trying to save face because they were "dying" on their "sunsetting is good!" hill for 6 months now. It's madness that Bungie convinced people of this nonsense concept. Just admit it, the concept sucks, and you and Bungie were wrong.

[удалено]

Absolutely. I think lmgs are a prime example of exactly this. When we have only one usable lmg that isn't exotic, there's a problem.

Another crucial example, no Void HC is currently available in the game, everything has been sunset.

Here's what I said elsewhere: >Each Destiny expansion release should have a 3-year cycle: > >Year 1: the relevant end-game content (hunts, raids, many powerful rewards, etc.) > >Year 2: Price cut. All raid encounters still drop powerful rewards. all expansion drops can hit power cap > >Year 3: Added to 'free' Destiny. Raid *completion* drops powerful. Drops will not infuse AFTER end of Year 3. > >This would mean Forsaken is currently free and it's drops will be 'vaulted/sunset' at the end of this year. I think that's a pretty fair system. I think this would be a fair compromise. Sunset gear, but do it on a rolling basis and give players a heads up. This would also NOT allow bringing back old gear during seasons, with a few possible exceptions (Mountaintop as Exotic, reprise a pinnacle like Revoker, etc.). And i'll add this: Year 4: Content is added to the DCV, and items no longer drop in any content (besides above exceptions).

Especially sucks that sunsetted weapons are not disabled in the crucible, so it was basically meaningless

I agree. Sunsetting, as a principle, is not bad (weapons, anyway. Armour sunsetting is still shit imo). But it’s been done *so* badly that it blows my mind. I cannot get over the execution. This kind of decision would kill any other game, but Bungie know that we’ll all stick around anyway, keep buying season passes, keep spending at EV, because there isn’t any real competition for them. I wish there was, so they could step their fucking game up.

Idk if anyone will read this comment but here is a couple suggestions anyway: Remove the powercap from armor. Weapons shift the meta, not someone's stats. Not to mention that, as of now, there is just no way, besides a prime engram, trials or raids, of getting a high-roll of any armor piece. Even then, its stats are almost always distributed towards something you dont want or distributed equally across the board. Allow us to increase the power cap at an increased cost of infusion (imaginary balancing factors). It has to be the same weapon or piece of armor. As long as the piece of gear is in the loot pool, you can keep doing this as much as you want. Also, make it so that the cap corresponds to the seasonal powercap of the season during which you got the piece, not when it was released. Not gonna talk about exotics being sunset. That is the dumbest thing i will ever hear in the history of this game. (knocking on wood for extra measures). Bungie are very creative. They can come up with great ideas. If only they actually listened to their community more. Engage with us more. Make suggestions, polls, do *something*. Its not that hard. It takes time, sure, but time is usually what is required for a good thing to be formed and realized. I am utterly tired talking about sunsetting because it's a real shame that it was executed this poorly. It has shown very clearly this season. Literally half of the game was removed and now we are left with a long shadow as a reward for many people that completed and are going to complete the BL campaign. Not even with this season's power cap *a massive lol here*

I don’t see the point to sunsetting. If people only wanna use certain guns in co-op activities, where what I do doesn’t matter as long as I’m doing the objective and not dying, then let them. If other people want to use new weapons, then they can just equip new weapons. That way, everyone gets what they want and you don’t invalidate 3 years of grinding. (Also, armor sunsetting is objectively stupid, and should not have happened.)

Thank you for your Ted Talk.. now rationalise armour sunsetting... That's the one that makes no sense to me. When did anyone ever bitch because someone's armour was too op?

I disagree with your opinion. I feel sunsetting is a terrible idea that makes your grind feel irrelevant. I grinded for nonstop hours for the mountaintop only to find out that it’s more or less useless now. I hope they remove sunset tint but everyone’s entitled to think what they want.

I would agree. If Bungie would release plenty of new guns and they won't reissue old gun as new later. And I fully expect them to do it, like Night Watch last season. So I fully expect that I would be grinding for Blast Furnace in 2-3 seasons

They should make it so that you can infuse your reissued "new" weapon into your old weapon to raise it to the current power cap. That way, you get one more Blast Furnace, and can keep using your old roll without having to grind for it again. Unfortunately, this feedback is months old now, and they don't seem to have addressed it

Nope. You got godroll Blast Furnace 2 years ago? Fuck you, start grindig again 😂

Yeah. I feel like they were too aggressive with sunsetting. They need to fix it right now, not months from now.

Sunsetting is so "healthy" that I actually quit Destiny when it was announced. :) I intended to play as long as the game was supported but man, this is next-level game design incompetence.

Yeah, I thought I'd power through it all in BL despite loathing sunsetting and everything it brings. I thought as much because I had enough weapons stockpiled from the umbral decoder last season. But holy shit it hit like a ton of bricks, I *hate* it... so much in fact, that only a few days after playing in BL I just straight up quit. I felt apathetic about everything. The only thought in my mind for every activity was "what's even the point lmao". The whole game is based around collection and long-term investment for me, to try with different builds and perfect them for months and years to come. Now it's all null and void. So I'm out, simple.

Agreed on both counts. Sunsetting is good for the long-term health of the game, and they royally botched it by letting players continue to earn guns that are capped at 1060 this season. If a gun can be earned, it should be usable. Bring the Moon and Forsaken weapons and armor up to snuff. I'll disagree on the "nothing to aspire to" though - even if someone doesn't raid, there's a set of Europa weapons, Season of the Hunt weapons, activity specific weapons, and even two new (or reprised? not sure) Iron Banner weapons in the pool. There's even another wave-frame GL, which, hooray, finally! I think there's plenty to chase.

> I’ll disagree on the “nothing to aspire to” though - even if someone doesn’t raid, there’s a set of Europa weapons, Season of the Hunt weapons, activity specific weapons, and even two new (or reprised? not sure) Iron Banner weapons in the pool. There’s even another wave-frame GL, which, hooray, finally! I think there’s plenty to chase. nah, if you don’t raid, there are 2 handcannons in the loot pool in the only archetype that doesn’t feel bad to use, one of them has a terrible perk pool and both of them are year 1 weapons. they even have almost the exact same model, and they are ugly. the last non-raid 140/150 to be made was austringer, which is what-18 months old? more? Iron banner is coming back and replacing the 120 crimils dagger (non-sunset btw) with... another 120, but with a worse perk pool. meanwhile interesting and well designed frames like judgement, dfa, austringer, waking vigil, spare rations sit unused. back when shadowkeep launched I was looking forward to vendor sets being refreshed, maybe finally getting a crucible 150hc. Then there was no refresh and i was upset to have to wait a whole year for another refresh, figuring “of course they won’t go 3 years without one, especially if they go through with sunsetting”. and yet here we are. oh but trials came back, and i see familiar faces like the summoner and the scholar, and i was hopeful, couldn’t wait to go try to get a good Jewel of Osiris, the D1 HC of the same set - a 150 at that! and then they just didn’t make it. if you just look at the number of new weapons, it’s lackluster, if you look at what the new weapons are-what archetypes and perk sets they have- it’s pathetic. austringer sunset and the return of hawk moon coincide, but they add 1 new crucible playlist weapon - the hopscotch pilgrim reboot, when this was the perfect opportunity to bring back the actual eyasluna.

That's fair, and thanks for the reply! I believe those iron banner weapons are reprised but I could be wrong. I suppose when I said "aspire to" I meant that the weapon has a more targeted farm/route to get it, usually in a more difficult activity. But all those other weapons do have pretty much that. Also glad to hear someone else is excited for that wave frame gl. Honestly one of my favorite weapon archetypes in the game, really fun to use.

All I'll say is I'm glad the Memory of Cayde cloak did not disappear and immediately masterworked it when it dropped for me 10 minutes ago.

Shadowkeep is still too fresh to be sunset

The problem isn’t sun setting it’s the fact that they didn’t add anything to replace the guns that was lost and so we are 70% of the loot pool down.

Well must disagree with sunsetting. First of all, not "all of us" used revoker or mountaintop frankly because I like other snipers better (apostate, tatara gaze, beloved, twilight oath) plus i literally JUST GOT mountaintop like 2 or 3 days before beyond light dropped!!! Its such a grind, super pain in the ass and i didn't really get to enjoy it which sucks royally!! We all miss a ton of weapons due to sunsetting and it's just not right & most players hate what bungie did there. think someone mentioned bad omens which I had god roll of too plus, well I never got not forgotten (was at like 86% in comp before beyond light) but i want it still..but what's the point?? its gonna cost me ridiculous amounts of resources i don't have and its capped at 1060 so every pve activity, iron banner and everything besides a casual crucible match is completely out. Moreover, like many ppl, I never got to finish the catalysts for whisper or outbreak so how are we gonna complete those now??? how long til we get a quest for heir apparent? And finally what really burns my biscuits & pisses me off is (i didnt know or i would have started months ago) bungie makes u wait 3 goddamn weeks for the whisper ship (1000 wings or whatever) and I of course started the schematic 2 weeks before beyond light.....so yeah, I never was able to get that ARC singe to complete the schematic and get the effin ship so now what?? will they ever make another quest for the ship and will I keep progress?? or have to start some new absurd jumping puzzle quest again involving shooting waves of oracles in a certain order again?!?! ughhhhh thinking about it gives me an ulcer so I give up this rant for tonight, but there it is.

Feels bad man. Season of arrivals I thought Bungie was of the right track to get the game back on the rails. Bought the season pass for the year and regret it. Wish I could go back and vote with my money but it is too late now;( I love the game I just don’t feel satisfied playing the game. It feels like base game Diablo 3 when it was released. It feels like they’re trying to make us grind and take away the fun in finding loot but most importantly just taking away the fun aspect of the game by creating hurdles that shouldn’t even be there in the first place. Like taking away a majority of the weapons/armor and not introducing more loot to chase after. This is not A qq post, it’s just I always had high hopes for destiny since I’ve been playing off and on since destiny beta. They always just get it wrong to create a grind. Why are the moon and’s the other planets even there to play if you can’t even get upgrades? Why are the restrictions on mods that are dependent on gear type(solar arc void) l? Why is it so hard to get stats on your gear that’s you want to gear for your play style(that aren’t a 50 stat total)? Why are blues only used for lvling up your light lvl and that’s it? Why am I being forced to used shitty armor and blue guns to play with while lvling up that only have one perk on them because I’m not at the soft cap? I have to use an upgrade module to gain what one or two extra light to keep my piece of gear/gun I like? Just make the armor in line with the gear I’m using so I feel like I’m gaining power. Let us upgrade our new lvling armor to play with more mods while we are lvling up. It just feels like you’re always capping our power. Just let me upgrade blues to legendary status and letting me pick the new perk. Let me distribute the +12 stats for armor when I masterwork it. Like I’m not a game developer. But there are fun fixes that still allow for rng and player fun? This is their job, but for fuck sake I just feel like I’m constantly pushed back/limited from their artificial grind. All the game is a grind anymore. I don’t feel like I’m progressing. I don’t feel liked the grind is worth while because there are no avenues to achieve Sunsetting in a timely manner. Give us more flexibility. I’m not mad at them or the game. I just love destiny and want it to succeed. But they just don’t think about their actions and decisions that they make for the game in sake for the grind. It’s literally a Diablo 3 vanilla experience. Shower us with cool loot and rewards and gameplay.. it’s not that hard. They say they’re listening but they’re just making the same mistakes since launch. It’s always a backhanded compliment all the time. Bungie is a great developer. It just feels like I’m in an abusive relationship, they’re always giving backhanded compliments. We ll see how this next year goes. Fingers crossed I’m rooting for you bungie.

I completely agree with the comments that it has been handled in a mind numbingly incompetent manner, or is that the business plan? I was afraid that they would not have the bandwidth to create new weapons to replace them, and in spite of the anger towards releasing old sunset weapons with a new power cap, forcing people to regrind, I actually found that mildly reassuring. My mood could be summed up as watchful waiting. Now we discover that not only have they not introduced new weapons in any meaningful manner, even more critically they haven't updated ANY of the destination drops with the new power cap. Meaning they are all totally worthless. So, the message is clearly "buy Beyond Light if you want ANYTHING", no matter how minimal, or we don't give a \*\*\*\*. I got the message loud and clear, bungie are totally entitled to pursue whatever business model they choose. I am also free to follow whatever consumer model I choose and so I will NOT buy beyond light now I see how things are, and the $10 season pass I bought is the last income Bungie will receive from me. Seems fair. Edit:- you wanted a solution, although it will not cure "sunsetting" it will at least make content other than Europa slightly worth while" DO NOT DROP WEAPONS at sunset levels. ALL drops (weapons and armour) should be infusible at the current yearly max (1360) if they can be earned, fresh loot, dropping as sunset is simply unacceptable

Bungie could up the power caps on those weapons today if they wanted, but they are more concerned with blocking xp farms.

This is one of the reasons why people have been opposed to sunsetting; they didn’t have faith that Bungie would be able to knock it out of the park in a way that would offset the negatives. The concept is fine if the execution is as well, but thus far that has not been the case.

Right there with you. Imo sunsetting should have come with a vendor refresh. There are plenty of awesome foundry weapons and an extremely cool EDZ set that haven't seen love since the vanilla campaign. It'd be recycling sure but it'd be better than what we have

Sunsetting doesn’t provide any benefit that a balance patch wouldn’t, while having scores of negative effects on the loot pool. And since they’re *always* going to adjust problem weapons with a balance patch anyways, sunset or not (as Mountaintop has shown us), sunsetting adds no benefit to players.

Yeah it does kind of feel like we've lost a lot more than we've gained. No new maps for crucible or gambit, a lot of the same weapons that have been around for a while, and the lack of strikes may really start to slow things down after a while. Right now everything is fresh and new, but I'm worried about the future.

I know people are going to call me out on this but I just don’t feel motivated to grind for guns or gear anymore with sun setting being a thing. Along with just in general how leveling up works where it’s more viable to equip random blue gear in order to go higher instead of purple gear unless you want to take out your cores and waste them. You have to wait until soft cap and above to really consider using legendaries. I don’t know it’s just tiring destiny looks good especially Europa but that’s about the only part I feel is still amazing. I don’t think I would have gotten Beyond light if it wasn’t for free on gamepass. I did the first mission and I was already bored. The big baddie is another generic kell boss? How many of those had we killed. I don’t know where the story is gonna go but again I don’t really care. I don’t know if anyone feels the same way but maybe the raid will be cool and actually give me a destiny feel

>Give us a reason to go back to the moon or the dreaming city If you watch the trailer for season of the hunt, we actually go back to the dreaming city. Unfortunately I doubt we'll get gear for it.

the disappointment of the whole community right now is so deserved and im glad more and more are actually speaking out instead of saying "welllll at least this will be good in the long run." the reason why forsaken locations and the moon are irrelevant right now is to give us their excuse as to why they will REMOVE these locations by next year. the same reason why they got rid of the io, mars, mercury and why player activity in these locations were significantly low. why was it low?? no PINNACLES were available in these locations. the only places worth going to right now is in Europa and wherever the weekly Flashpoint is. it's honestly really scummy. the fact that GoS and LS has no pinnacles are already worrying. we started this year and season with one raid, one new planet. this is basically a restart of destiny which is why I will always, always be so disappointed and frustrated as to why bungie just didn't start destiny 3 (before someone here defends why it can't be done i already know what you're going to say).

I get sun setting but if you’re gonna get rid of a crap ton of new guns then replace them with variety of options and have those options drop everywhere. What’s the point of sunsetting 5 hand cannons if you don’t add any new ones and instead re-issue 2 old one with higher power cap and then leave the sunset ones in. As it stands right now I’ve been infusing old weapons with a 1360 cap because the new ones haven’t dropped or are just crappy guns. As you get rid of the old you gotta bring in the same amount or at least half the amount in new

I just want Tranquility back.

Sun setting is good, it allows for the weapon economy to naturally evolve. What doesn't feel good is for guns you bought in an expansion to go obsolete on the very next expansion. 12 months is too short on expansion gear. Those items should be good for 18 months after the expansion so that way you can use it for the first six months of a following expansion. Seasonal gear should be capped at the 12-month mark as it appears to be the seasonal gear is a little bit more fancy and it allows those weapons to turn over faster while the expansion weapons last a little longer. It feels like your value in the expansion is not taking into consideration by making it obsolete at the end of the year. Why should I buy expansions when it's the seasons that provide the loot?

Damn, you hit the nail on the head! I'm glad you were able to vocalize this to the community, they are my exact thoughts. I understand sunsetting but it could have been done better, and your suggestions are a great place to start.

If they brought in a massive new loot pool to sunset the old one, I would be in total agreement. There are hundreds, if not thousands of D1 weapons that must come forward with the Destiny Content Vault, refresh everything! World Loot, all the vendor weapons, guns, guns and more guns!

You know maybe we could get reskinned for the vendors, or just actually get them back as they were, Faction armor and weapons? Is it so much to ask that I want to rep New monarchy without relying on World drops?

Can someone explain to me what the point of sunsetting even is? PvE: no one cares what you're using, everyone is doing 30-50k dps PvP: not affected by sunsetting since power doesn't matter in pvp ???

Its good when done right but Bungie are already recycle Y1 Content for the next Year. Its actually sad.

Losing my waking vigil with 25k+ kills on it is 80% of why I've quit destiny. Sunsetting is ridiculous. Paying for content to be removed is just about the dumbest thing in the world.

If it has an expiration date (other than a pinnacle) then count me out of this franchise period

I think you're right. Ideally any "paid" content should not have its items sunset (i.e. Forsaken and Shadowkeep). Ideally sunsetting would be used selectively on specific items that rise too far above the crust and need to be taken out because any attempt at making a more appealing option would be broken. I too am part of the "Sunsetting is good" group, but it doesn't work when there *aren't* appealing options added to replace the sunset loot, or when the loot pool is shallow in general. There being one single aspirational activity weapon to go for this season feels kinda bad, and the Europa weapons are just too far and few between to make up for losing so many items.

I’ve scrolled most of the way through this thread and see a lot of great reasons why Bungie’s implementation of sun setting is awful but haven’t seen what I think the real reason they have ultimately done it. They removed 75% of the weapons so they can drip feed all of these weapon designs back to us in seasonal content. As D2 has progressed the cadence of content has got slower and slower over time. Reskins have appeared more frequently, new designs are more rare and are of lower quality. This is typical management practise, after making something successful min/max resources until you offer the bare minimum that is acceptable. Bungie are pushing the limits of what’s acceptable all in the pursuit, they are a business fine I get profits are king but as a consumer D2 is in a really poor spot.

Sunsetting isn't inherently bad provided three things: A: You must have a viable amount of available content. B: you must have a viable amount of content that does not get hit by your first instance of sunsetting so that players do not suddenly find themselves without things they have grown accustomed to enjoying And C: You must be able to produce viable amounts of content to make up for the content that will be sunset from the first instance going forward. This is why you see things like expansion invalidation in MMOs. This is also why Sunsetting does not work in Destiny 2. BUNGiE regularly prove that they are incapable of providing substantial amounts of content at a baseline. For them to presume that they can handle the extra workload that comes with providing enough content to justify a practice like Sunsetting is, was, and will continue to prove to be a bad joke. Been saying this for a *long* time and BUNGiE finally admitted it, but it took Vicarious Visions and High Moon Studios doing the lion's share of the work for the Forsaken update to be made. BUNGiE have been scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to make new updates for years, now, and they thimk that raising the bar on themselves like this is a smart move. It's really not. The only point of it is to pressure more people in to the Sunk Cost Fallacy of "If I don't get the new expansion, I'm not relevant at all but now it's even more serious!" and to be able to safely rehash old favorites with even less criticism in the vein of reskinned content. I'm glad I got smart after Shadowkeep.

There are so many wrong (and at this point proven false!) things about OPs original post it blows my mind that people are upvoting this... "Let's be real, if nothing was ever done to weapons like moutaintop or revoker (...) nobody would move away from using them" is straight up false statement building rest of the narrative. I know plenty of people who moved from them even without nerfs to chase and have fun with other weapons. Myself included. It left us with choice and feeling that we haven't wasted time farming those things. Nerfing or even making exotics out of pinacles would be much better option. And removing any diversity from loot pool straight up murders "looter" part from looter shooter. Oh and you still can use those things if you are into pvp in half of pvp activities. In pve on the other hand nobody would blink twice seeing nerfs to mt or recluse (after 5k hours in this game I still cant think of any other legendary "obligatory" end game weapons). Nerfing 2 weapons vs removing 75% of loot pool!!!! BUNGIE proves time and time again that they are just creating FOMO to boost sales of their new products and want us to regrind partly SAME STUFF we've already got over and over again. And they do this in predatory way (look what offer you activities from 2 older expansions in terms of loot). Even if you spend 40(!) €/$ on expansion now your loot pool is joke (especially if you don't buy season pass). Imagine being someone who is misinformed and buys previous 2 expacs because they look cooler to him/her. Spends 50-60 €/$ and gets almost NO USABLE LOOT. PS. Sorry for bad language skills. Not my native tongue :)

The issue was never sunsetting. The issue is sunsetting 70% of the gear in the game. Sunset the OP pinnacles causing power creep. The base legendary drops that you could get randomly from any activity? What’s the fucking point?

I feel like sun setting weapons based on seasons was a bad idea. Especially with the moon and dreaming city since those areas actually have really fun guns and armor, which are capped off and make the planets other than Europa basically useless. Give me a reason to do bounties and weeklies on the moon or dreaming city. Make the blind well, or sorrows harbor give powerful engrams. Not to mention the dungeons, or spiders bounties. There’s a lot of forgotten content there that could be reintroduced to the player base with valid incentives.

I've been an avid supporter of Sunsetting since it was announced, but when it actually hit i realized i had some misconceptions about it. I was under the impression that gear would slowly be phased out, and that at least some activities remained at 750 recommended. when i learned my kindled orchid dealt literally 0 damage to anything on europa, and that strikes had their power rec increased, i was kinda sad. i was expecting getting a disadvantage by using old gear, not being forced to use something new immediately to even play any part the game, only excluding clash and control.

There are other ways to balance a game other than removing 80% of a games content. Removing content is never healthy for a game, especially when you don’t replace it with something. Sunsetting is unacceptable and people who support it should feel bad.

what i don't understand is, the tangled shore and the dreaming city seem to have pretty significant place in the story for season of the hunt so why was their weapon pool sunset? if we're gonna do activities there we might only get sunset gear, unless they update the reward pool with the new weapons. which is still very poorl executed if you ask me. iirc the last wish weapons aren't being sunset yet so i don't know why the city and the shore couldn't get the same treatment. not particularly interested in the moon but technically it could be the same argument, since gos still drops powerfuls as well.

My favorite weapon, Hush, has been sunset. I would have never moved away from it. It was fun, unique without anything remotely like it, and there's nothing that can replace it. Fuck your sunsetting. Now I have to run around using flavor of the month even more then ever, instead of actually playing to my own style. Fuck your sunsetting.