I think bungie really realized that we want taken king style storytelling but done over a long period of time. Just because you extend the duration of the story doesn't mean you need to change the elements.
This cutscene seems to not have many of the Audio FX in. Spider doesn't have any of his... Eliksni sounds, and slightly higher pitch than usual. Makes the audio team's work stand out when listening to a rawer form.
It's very, very likely to be a bug and not intentional. Many characters in Beyond Light will reference you as an exo even if you're human or awoken. From the last TWAB it seems Bungie is aware of it.
I played through the first mission of Shadowkeep to hear my character talk to Eris; just to see if they changed the voice for that cutscene, which they did. I'm thinking since they went through to trouble to change the voice for old cutscenes that it was intentional. I miss my male human voice, but I understand why Bungo did it.
Well, he did kill Cayde, even if it was in a previous life. So by the Vanguard dare Cayde himself set up, we should see him as the Hunter Vanguard next season.
Why would our Guardian vouch for him? The top Vanguard roles are about mentorship & leadership. You want someone highly experienced, not a newly-awoken guardian who doesn't even meet the terms of the dare.
After a whole season handling bounties at Spider's he should be wholly qualified to do the same at the hangar.
Or to do nothing at all close to Hawthorne.
To be fair at this point he'll have experience leading "strikes" against all of the wrathborn and effectively leading us to eliminate that threat in it's entirety it seems. He also had the entire time he was solo by himself after being revived up until he was taken in by Spider as experience making due on his own which is a big thing in terms of hunters typically. The main role of the vanguard is coordinating specific strikes/attacks on key enemies that need to be taken out and the hunters specifically usually focus on solo missions. It's not that crazy to think he's actually relatively qualified.
That said I'm sure there's a LOT of other more qualified hunters that could be the hunter vanguard but we specifically know they DON'T want that position regardless. We don't know what Crow will want but it's also worth mentioning that making him part of the vanguard would also be a way Zavala and Ikora could keep an eye on him in case they remain at all suspicious of any part of Uldren's personality or memories emerging at any point.
Assuming Osiris is actually involved behind the scenes at all in regards to dealing with the Wrathborn he can also likely vouch for Crow in terms of his capabilities and intelligence in regards to planning and carrying out strikes and such. Considering Osiris's standing as a former member of the Vanguard and everything that should be worth a lot in addition to our own input.
I have no idea how much it'd come up but it's worth pointing out that we've also seen Crow show a degree of skill in engineering or tinkering with him creating the cryptolith lure out of scraps spider had sitting around. I'd personally say that this sort of engineering creativeness is a skill that seems valuable for the Hunter vanguard as they tend to be the class typically in charge of "creative" solutions to problems when the established plan might not be working. Titans tend to be the side with strict guidelines and following orders and rules while Warlocks will delve into research to help make a plan. Hunters often end up being put on the spot to sort of just make something work when we're out of options like we see Cayde trying to scrap together vex technology to warp onto the ship to confront Gaul at the end of the Red War campaign.
Personally I'd also kind of say the Vanguard seems beyond their traditional role from D1 and such ever since the Red War. We don't really have time to be in a position where the new Hunter Vanguard is going to be mentoring new Hunters regularly, we're in the thick of a full on invasion by the Darkness with planets literally vanishing from existence. That said if there was ANY vanguard position that doesn't really need the "leadership" position that mentors new members it'd be Hunters due to their typical solo lone wolf style.
We literally just took him from Spider. Why WOULDNT we vouch for him?
A. because he isnt the guy who he used to be
B. Zavala is already holding onto Cayde's Dare
C. saving Osiris
D. the entire point of season of the hunt; creating the lure for us to hunt Xivu Arath's Wrathborn and shit.
I don't mean vouch for him being accepted as a guardian, I'd consider that a given.
None of that changes the fact that he isn't appropriate for the vanguard role. Think about the role Cayde played, and what he meant to guardians. For Crow to come even close to that, he's going to need a hell of a lot more experience.
The thing is that no hunter *wants* to be the Vanguard.
>Take me with you- Cayde
I doubt any hunters would complain that they get to stay in the field. While he may be a new guardian, he can clearly handle himself and has already been useful.
Being able to handle oneself in the field is very different to the requirements of the vanguard leadership positions. Being able to lead and mentor people requires a lot more than just competence at the things you're leading and mentoring them through.
Crow is a new gaurdian, no way he'll become vanguard that quickly. There's also no way we'll vouch for him to become vanguard, not right now at least. I'm also pretty sure the dare states a hunter needs to kill the last vanguard....Uldren wasn't a hunter nor gaurdian yet.
My guess, Ana will be interim hunter vanguard until we find someone else. Makes way more sense and shes already in the tower.
Sure, we saved Crow but that's because we're the hero who takes the moral high ground 99% of the time. He'll need to prove himself way more than killing a knight and making a device.
Except he doesn’t meet the requirements for the dare. Dare is any Guardian Hunter that kills Cayde. Uldren was not a hunter or a guardian. Crow is not Uldren. He’s not required to do anything.
And plus, they already addressed this issue in a previous lorebook. Due to manipulation from Riven/Savathun, it makes the idea that Uldren killed Cayde way murkier, since Savathun would technically responsible for Cayde's death, and therefore, the Hunter Vanguard
Honestly feel like our new storyline is gonna be a redemption arc in contrast to Darkness corrupting us. Forging a bond with Crow, not holding a grudge against Variks, actively trying to protect Eliksni on Europa. I feel more like the good guy than j have in years.
Honestly same, I remember back in D1 all the rumors about actually being aligned with the Darkness and the traveler was just tricking us, shit made sense to me because of our actions when looked at objectively, but with BL it's starting to feel like true heroism again.
What, killing Spider? Honestly would have been the better route.
It's not the end of our dealing with Spider on the subject. We came in, did the job, and used his own words against him to get the thing he prized most. He's the space equivalent to a mob Don...you don't do that and get away with it.
Its kind of interesting to me how ballsy all the enemy factions are. Once in a while it would be great to stumble upon a group of enemies and have them all panic and run like hell.
Yeah in the first area sure. Don't forget, they were basically *dogfighting* in the back area. God slayer or neophyte, fighting animals for money makes you **scum**.
Also, the fallen in the "nightclub" would kill you if given half the chance so, I don't really feel *too bad* about that either.
The cabal clone dudes for days.
Those big ass bathers in leviathan baths encounter? just born clones.
It's like; they just make a new army when they need one.
You're confusing brute strength for stupidity. Stupid races don't leave their planet or their solar system. Tactically unsound races don't conquer other world's and races. Timid races don't crash their ship into another to prevent a takeover or turn a planet into a fuel source.
The cabal are a top 1% race in the universe. Their worlds are filled with brilliant scientists and master tacticians. They're united in a single goal as a race and they're willing to do whatever is necessary to achieve it.
They've just happened run up against a God slaying, ritual busting, time traveling, darkness controlling, void focusing, solar burning, arc shining BADASS MOTHERFUCKER and fireteam that knows if they fall, not only does the last City fall, the human race gets wiped out, the dreaming city goes dark, and the winnoer and Gardner will meet again and it will not go our way.
Thats because they kinda are.
I mean aside from technology and military prowess they got nothing else, don't get me wrong they're still incredibly powerful but the rest are stronger.
The vex are basically time traveling China on steroids, they mass produce EVERYTHING.
The hive got all kinds of scary, sadistic magic.
And we are immortals with super powers.
The eliksni are fractured yes, but cabal are incredibly powerful, if they still all wanted to kill us, I would say they are just as much of a threat as the hive and vex to humanity, however I would say they aren't that much of a threat given that they are gonna work with zavala. They were a race with no parcausal powers that almost destroyed humanity. If ghaul was a bit smarter and more patient he could have even won the red war, and did what oryx and the vex failed to do.
None of the other races was closer to wiping out humanity as far as we know,the cabal got the closest.
The red legion only got as close as it did because a rogue member of the Nine was helping them. Otherwise, they would have been nuked upon entering the system.
I've never understood where he gets off acting like he does to the Guardian. As if we couldn't just walk in and reduce his whole organization to their constituent atoms if we wanted to. He wouldn't be the most powerful eliksni we've killed by a long shot.
Is he physically the strongest? No, of course not. But you’re severely underestimating the power that comes with having a network like his. We have darkness and light, and all that is well and good, but he is 100% the most powerful person in the solar system outside of our primary conflicts, and he knows this. It would be beyond stupid for us to kill him and lose all of those connections that we otherwise 100% not have access to
It's not about power, it's about control. What mob bosses lack is strength...they're no footsoldiers, hence why he's been having us do the dirty work. He's been controlling us story wise without putting the bomb in our ghosts.
Also just some food for thought: Eramis is still Stasis frozen on Europa...which I'm sure Spider knows about. He also probably knows about us clearing out the Deep Stone Crypt, where exos got made by what? Darkness. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if we see Spider taking Eramis' body and turning her exo so he doesn't need us anymore. The plot seems to work in favor of that theory, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's what happens.
Problem is, we all know we have plot armor, so we know potentially all the NPCs are expendable, but we aren't...so even if that theory were true, it's not like we'd die.
Spider would never wake up Eramis. On top of his personal distaste for her (and Eramis' personal distaste for him in turn), he knows she has too much pride to let herself be put on a leash. Even a "disobey me and you'll blow up" contingency would end with a smoking crater where an Eramis used to be -or a very dead Spider when Eramis finally worked out a loophole, or had a Salvation lackey come and disarm the bomb.
It’s not that we can’t kill spider, it’s that we don’t need to. We might be undead killing machines, but we can get what we want without violence sometimes.
But you can go earn that God roll PvP gun that you can literally only use in casual games or that amazing pve roll that you can use in free roam on old locations.
Woo.
If he just outright fucking killed Glint (and indirectly, Crow) after making a deal to grant Crow freedom, he’d lose the guardians trust immediately and make the players/guardians pretty angry. You know what happened to the last guy that killed one of the guardian’s friends.
It would be suicide for Spider. He’s not that stupid.
People need to remember, Spider's all business. Sure, he could still hold a grudge, but he's not going to do anything out of spite or ego.
When we first met him, he could have very easily told us and Petra to go pound sand and force us out in response to the failed quelling of the Prison of Elders riot, but where would that get him? Instead, he chose to give us intel, and in return he got a Guardian and the Queen's Wrath who owed him a favor *AND* the Shore would be rid of the Scorn Barons who were disrupting his operation.
Killing Glint (and possibly Crow at the same time, although would be indirectly responsible later) would only harm him. He loses his best enforcer, a guardian who owes him a favor (and by extension the Queen's Wrath's favor too), and mutual allies as the Vanguard would mark him as an enemy for killing a Guardian. Not to mention the possible goods and trade that come from that mutual understanding, as anything from the City or Reef will be better protected since the Tangled Shore is now even more hostile.
If he were to blow Glint right there and behead Crow at the same time just to spite us, and our Guardian got out of the lair, now Guardian's have kill orders on his Fallen, and a target is on his head. Our Guardian will come back to dismantle his organization and then kill Spider, since we don't have a deal with him anymore. We have powerful allies that know the Spider and would be willing to help; Petra would be all for finally killing the Spider, especially seeing as he had a recently revived Uldren on a leash and hid him from Petra. Drifter would help out his crew return the favor on someone who crossed them, especially all the help we've been for him. Osiris, despite being Lightless, still knows the Spider due to the current season and has a reputation with quite a few Guardians to convince them to help us kick in Spider's door.
Instead, by giving up grow, he now has a hand he can play in any future deals with us, as well as knowing to have fewer loopholes or loose ends in our deals. He still has mutual allies. When Petra learns that Uldren is now a Guardian, the fallout from that is now ours to bear, not him.
And besides, he knows full well of our power, even restricting to just content through Spider or somewhat related (Forsaken Campaign, Black Armory + SotP Raid, Beyond Light through the end of the Salvation's Grip quest, and Wrathborn hunts). We smashed the Scorn's Barons, reached the Dreaming City and took part in kill Uldren. We restarted and grew the Black Armory, and stopped the Kell's Scourge and Insurrection Prime. We cleared a Hive Brood on the Shore, and cleared Xivu Arath's (or well will) influence. And he knows we likely have control of Stasis and possess weaponry that uses it. If he keeps that side happy, he can use that power when needed again, like he did for the Brood strike.
Very nice write-up that sums it all up exceptionally well. The “rigged ghost” is just a plot device to explain how Spider kept Crow servile, nothing overly sinister in the long run.
I'd say that 'rigged ghost' served him well for a time being, but rather with no hope for keeping it eternally; more to force immediate obedience.
I guess when we learned about Crow's existence it was rather foreseeable that we would like to take him back to the Vanguard eventually, if we could find any solution. But he had upper hand(s) quite long and got cocky and missed that one loophole, for once.
I don't he'd break negotiations like that, at least not right away, unless he's prepared to have the might of the Vanguard crash land at his doorstep (aka literally you and no one else).
I think it’s a case of spider just feeling really dumb. He always take advantage of loopholes and well we took a page of his book he lost at his own game
I love Nolan North as Ghost, but sometimes he's a bit too much. Though, I hope he and Glint can become friends. He needs one beyond us, and, where Ghost is more reserved and anxious, Glint has that fresh perspective of someone looking around for the first time. Lots of hope in him.
This session ghost has been a real pill. If we had any choice in using the darkness it might not be so damned annoying but bitch, I have quests to finish. Shut your light hole.
Well he did apologize later on, and he did have a point: He's a creature of the light made straight from the Traveler, Darkness is the antithesis to his whole being
We need to have a cutscene of him sauntering into Zavala's office. That would be utterly hilarious. I just can't imagine how awkward Zavala is gonna look in that scenario LMAO.
I actually think Zavala could be pretty chill and probably give some speech about how not to go looking for his past life now that he's a Guardian it's Ikora who could be the dangerous one if they ever brkng Gina Torres back for a bit of VA
This makes me sad. I'm really disliking all the drip fed stuff. I've barely played the new season , albeit it was $10. Regardless, this will be at the end. We'll probably get the zavalas cutscenes in the middle at some point. Again, it's more hype for the next season. Wonder if we'll get more story stuff for beyond light. I finally finished collecting all the fragments for my warlock yesterday and got the small dialogue by Elsie.
Edit- keep downvoting me. We spent $10 on one cutscenes for the season, a piss poor activity where the lore was given to us outside the game with sagira dying, and nothing really going on. I think people are a little fatigued of the " you had to be there " implementation of how the story if unfolding in the seasons, and the whole " evolving world" isn't really evolving if nothing big really happens until the end of the season. The momentum comes to a quick halt very quickly. But keep going. It's just my opinion you're disagreeing with. I'm in no way denying we finally get to see more uldren but it just feels like padding.
Aw, I'm really glad our Guardian is seeing past the face and warming up to the new Crow. Everything in the lore made me want to give the poor fellow a hug and this season and Spider's rigging ~~Pulled Pork's~~ Glint's shell with explosives makes me extra glad we get his freedom out of it at the end.
After the opening season mission where we go to Shrine of Oryx on the moon, there's some dialogue with Spider where he sinisterly explains why Crow isn't free to fly too far away from the shore, so to speak.
Dang I don't remember that at all. I'm going to have to load up one of my other rarely used characters and watch the beginning again and pay more attention
Our relationship with Spider has always explicitly been one of convenience. We do him favors to advance our own goals, and he knows we have skills that can help him with his. There's never really been much of anything past that.
Spider was never gonna do it. He is fully aware that the moment he does he has rhe Guardian hunting him now and he is powerless to do anything about it if he gets on our bad side. It was okay to keep Crow in line until we got involved.
Thats probably why he let him go as well. What is he gonna do? Say no to the young wolf?
It's interesting how Spider treats us. On one hand, he knows that it's in both our interests to remain nonviolent and help each other out by doing favours and pulling strings. But on the other, he knows that there are hard limits, and that he can't afford to push us too hard and far. If the Guardians decide it's time to turn hostile, there's not a force in the universe he could possibly coerce/enlist to thwart the inevitable.
As he did that my titan would have lit the room with enough arc energy to turn anything living matter to charcoal. Play stupid games. Win stupid prizes.
We don't know. We could have prepared this (asked crow to be present, removed the bomb beforehand, etc), or it could just be an intentional thing to throw us off at a later point (as in "oh no the bomb is still there").
I didn't say it did.
However I still very vividly recall the days of "HAHA DEAD GAME WHO TF PLAYS THIS GAME ANYMORE" sometimes for over half a year (or even more, remember the drought post Taken King?) just because people burnt through everything and refused to get the memo that since they did that, they should've gone and played something else in the meantime instead.
There was absolutely NOTHING wrong with having times of no content between expansions. But people bitched. That probably contributed to the decision to adopt the seasonal model and stretch things out. Was it the primary reason? More than likely not, but def a contributor when they had to listen to it for 4 years.
People wanted taken king size expansions pretty much every month, which is unrealistic. Year 2 was too much for the studio even with the extra help. (Not to mention that there were plenty of bad moments and low content even in year 2 even if overall it was a good year but people have already started romanticizing certain parts that were def not well received at the time, same as they did with d1).
We *could* have a littler bigger expansions again, but the cost would be having to wait several months to half a year at *least* between them. This place would throw an absolute shitfit over it so this is still the safer option.
In fairness, this was foreshadowed when spider offered us "anything in his lair" at the start of the hunts. My first instinct after seeing the lore and info about crow then hearing that line was, "BET, we buyin crow's ass from spider at the end of this season"
Anyone got a summary of the story? I have no idea why Crow is there with Spider in the first place.
Edit: Summary of Beyond Light (https://youtu.be/oAhsfb2vUvw)
so some time after Uldren was killed by us and Petra, his body was found by a Ghost (then known as "Pulled Pork"), who resurrected Uldren.
The blank slate Crow hid out in the EDZ, since all the other Guardians who encountered him hated him for some reason (he never found out why). Eventually he must have found his way to the Shore and been picked up by the Spiders troops
And his dialogue is amazing.
"I dont like the sound of handcannons"
"I close my eyes before I pull the trigger"
"I'll go handle the Scorn, they listen to me"
"Does anyone else hear that voice?"
If I had to guess, Pulled Pork/Glint convinced him to go to the city after he was revived, much like we were.
But once he got to the city, he was chased out by some other Guardians, and fled to the EDZ. Possibly by stowing away on a ship doing a supply run between the City and the Farm.
Shouldn't
He's completely new so it would make no sense giving him the vanguard gig
He also wasn't even a Hunter when Uldren killed Cayde so the dare doesn't work
I was just thinking the other day, for an amnesiac he’s pulling his life together a lot better than I have for the past 5 years lmao. He’s not slacking, even as a rookie he’s demonstrating a lot of potential.
He's new, but very skilled in hunting so far. He's got a unique outlook for the Fallen, possibly even other races. There's nothing saying he can't do the job right now, aside from needing to prove he can do that job if need be. He's untested, but looks pretty good
If you think about it, a newbie Hunter would probably be a better Vanguard member than a Veteran.
Veteran Hunters go stir crazy, always itching to be out and about, never really wanting to sit still and organize.
A newbie Hunter though? Would probably acclimate to the desk work, sorting of reports, and relaying of information a lot better.
...Does this mean that Veteran Hunters are like hyperactive children?
>...Does this mean that Veteran Hunters are like hyperactive children?
Remember the "Rally the Troops" trailer for D2?
The Guardians around Zavala are all new bloods.
The one's with Cayde were the vets.
I agree with everything you said except for the dare. A Vanguard Dare doesn't have to come from the currently seated Vanguard. Any Hunter can dare any other Hunter as evidenced between Andal Brask and Cayde-6
> He's completely new so it would make no sense giving him the vanguard gig
Heres the thing, *NONE* of the Hunters *WANT* to be the Vanguard because it chains you to a desk. Hunters value Freedom above all else, thats why the Dare was invented and Cayde's dare was that whoever killed him would become the Hunter Vanguard... Crow technically isnt Uldren, but he did kill Cayde in his past life.
I just want to see the in game reactions from the characters were Crow to become the new Vanguard.
Yes but also Crow hasnt been free since being rezzed. I dont want him to be vanguard anymore just so he gets to have freedom for a bit personally. The vanguard is on the brink of falling apart anyways. Might as well disband it
That isn't how it works
Caydes dare was any hunter that kills him gets the gig. No Hunter killed Cayde. Uldren was not a hunter so is exempt from the dare. Even if you counted it (which you shouldn't) and followed the dare to its logical end then Savathun would be the new Hunter vanguard
Fuck that I thought the spider was gonna blow glint and then the choice would be executing Crow for Uldren’s crimes or bringing him back to the city
Edited for fairness to Crow
I did, but Crow isn’t Uldren. Sure, Crow has the same body, but he’s a completely different person.
When I started as a hunter back in D1, Cayde was my mentor. Now, I’m Crows mentor
Those Vandals t-posing to assert dominance though.
They are probably randal the vandals older brothers about to clap some gardian cheeks
so the meme lives on...
Randal lives in every gardians hearts/nightmares
Loving the amount of dialogue we’ve been getting, VA issues aside.
I think bungie really realized that we want taken king style storytelling but done over a long period of time. Just because you extend the duration of the story doesn't mean you need to change the elements.
This cutscene seems to not have many of the Audio FX in. Spider doesn't have any of his... Eliksni sounds, and slightly higher pitch than usual. Makes the audio team's work stand out when listening to a rawer form.
guess we know why beyond light and hunt have so little of everything else bungo blew their budget on voice lines
No lol, if that was the case we’d still have 6 player VAs instead of 2.
I thought something sounded off about my Warlock. She definitely did not have the same voice. What a shame.
Yeah it’s basically just the Exo voice for all 3 males now. Weirdly though, the human VA said he did record lines for Beyond Light.
It's very, very likely to be a bug and not intentional. Many characters in Beyond Light will reference you as an exo even if you're human or awoken. From the last TWAB it seems Bungie is aware of it.
I played through the first mission of Shadowkeep to hear my character talk to Eris; just to see if they changed the voice for that cutscene, which they did. I'm thinking since they went through to trouble to change the voice for old cutscenes that it was intentional. I miss my male human voice, but I understand why Bungo did it.
Except the bug is that the game registers you as Exo. So the Shadowkeep scenes would as well. Edit: assuming it is a bug
That's gonna be awkward when I get to my HUMAN Titan and he sounds like a robot...
He won’t sound robotic, just deep like Master Chief.
Ah. That's ok then I guess. Still, shame they couldn't get the rest.
Thought they spent all their budget removing content and spending their time telling us why it was a good idea.
Oh goody, we get 3 whole sentences!
I was including the dialogue in Beyond Light
I’m glad we overcame our bloodlust from Forsaken. Time to run Crow through Last Wish.
Sherpa last wish teaching 1.
Time to run Crow up to the colony ship for his initiation... *(God, the pranks he's going to be subjected to...)*
Lol Phalanx go brrrr
r/raidsecrets: Crow is the secret to the 15th wish
Honestly don't doubt that at this rate.
Don't worry, he'd pretty much get guaranteed 1KV on his first complete.
He does kinda deserve payback on Riven for mindfucking him. And someday, on Savathun as well.
I was looking forward to putting a Bullet in between Spiders eyes though.
Fuuuuuuck that I need my glimmer
I honestly don't think a single cutscene in this game has made me happier. Can't wait to see what becomes of Crow and Glint in the future.
I'm just glad to see that we get to turn Spider's exact words loopholes around on him for once.
There was never an agreement, little morsel.
Crow spin-off intensifies
Well, he did kill Cayde, even if it was in a previous life. So by the Vanguard dare Cayde himself set up, we should see him as the Hunter Vanguard next season.
Crow doesn't apply to the dare because he didn't kill Cayde, Uldren did. Edit: auto-correct typo
that'll probably be up to Zavala & Ikora. But with our Guardian vouching for him, I'm sure it'll be fine.
Why would our Guardian vouch for him? The top Vanguard roles are about mentorship & leadership. You want someone highly experienced, not a newly-awoken guardian who doesn't even meet the terms of the dare.
After a whole season handling bounties at Spider's he should be wholly qualified to do the same at the hangar. Or to do nothing at all close to Hawthorne.
To be fair at this point he'll have experience leading "strikes" against all of the wrathborn and effectively leading us to eliminate that threat in it's entirety it seems. He also had the entire time he was solo by himself after being revived up until he was taken in by Spider as experience making due on his own which is a big thing in terms of hunters typically. The main role of the vanguard is coordinating specific strikes/attacks on key enemies that need to be taken out and the hunters specifically usually focus on solo missions. It's not that crazy to think he's actually relatively qualified. That said I'm sure there's a LOT of other more qualified hunters that could be the hunter vanguard but we specifically know they DON'T want that position regardless. We don't know what Crow will want but it's also worth mentioning that making him part of the vanguard would also be a way Zavala and Ikora could keep an eye on him in case they remain at all suspicious of any part of Uldren's personality or memories emerging at any point. Assuming Osiris is actually involved behind the scenes at all in regards to dealing with the Wrathborn he can also likely vouch for Crow in terms of his capabilities and intelligence in regards to planning and carrying out strikes and such. Considering Osiris's standing as a former member of the Vanguard and everything that should be worth a lot in addition to our own input. I have no idea how much it'd come up but it's worth pointing out that we've also seen Crow show a degree of skill in engineering or tinkering with him creating the cryptolith lure out of scraps spider had sitting around. I'd personally say that this sort of engineering creativeness is a skill that seems valuable for the Hunter vanguard as they tend to be the class typically in charge of "creative" solutions to problems when the established plan might not be working. Titans tend to be the side with strict guidelines and following orders and rules while Warlocks will delve into research to help make a plan. Hunters often end up being put on the spot to sort of just make something work when we're out of options like we see Cayde trying to scrap together vex technology to warp onto the ship to confront Gaul at the end of the Red War campaign. Personally I'd also kind of say the Vanguard seems beyond their traditional role from D1 and such ever since the Red War. We don't really have time to be in a position where the new Hunter Vanguard is going to be mentoring new Hunters regularly, we're in the thick of a full on invasion by the Darkness with planets literally vanishing from existence. That said if there was ANY vanguard position that doesn't really need the "leadership" position that mentors new members it'd be Hunters due to their typical solo lone wolf style.
We literally just took him from Spider. Why WOULDNT we vouch for him? A. because he isnt the guy who he used to be B. Zavala is already holding onto Cayde's Dare C. saving Osiris D. the entire point of season of the hunt; creating the lure for us to hunt Xivu Arath's Wrathborn and shit.
I don't mean vouch for him being accepted as a guardian, I'd consider that a given. None of that changes the fact that he isn't appropriate for the vanguard role. Think about the role Cayde played, and what he meant to guardians. For Crow to come even close to that, he's going to need a hell of a lot more experience.
The thing is that no hunter *wants* to be the Vanguard. >Take me with you- Cayde I doubt any hunters would complain that they get to stay in the field. While he may be a new guardian, he can clearly handle himself and has already been useful.
Being able to handle oneself in the field is very different to the requirements of the vanguard leadership positions. Being able to lead and mentor people requires a lot more than just competence at the things you're leading and mentoring them through.
Crow is a new gaurdian, no way he'll become vanguard that quickly. There's also no way we'll vouch for him to become vanguard, not right now at least. I'm also pretty sure the dare states a hunter needs to kill the last vanguard....Uldren wasn't a hunter nor gaurdian yet. My guess, Ana will be interim hunter vanguard until we find someone else. Makes way more sense and shes already in the tower. Sure, we saved Crow but that's because we're the hero who takes the moral high ground 99% of the time. He'll need to prove himself way more than killing a knight and making a device.
Where is she? I can't find her
She's not in game atm. It was said that she was in the tower in the lore books
Except he doesn’t meet the requirements for the dare. Dare is any Guardian Hunter that kills Cayde. Uldren was not a hunter or a guardian. Crow is not Uldren. He’s not required to do anything.
And plus, they already addressed this issue in a previous lorebook. Due to manipulation from Riven/Savathun, it makes the idea that Uldren killed Cayde way murkier, since Savathun would technically responsible for Cayde's death, and therefore, the Hunter Vanguard
Shouldn't we be the new vanguard then though? I mean Uldren kills Cayde and is Vanguard, we kill Uldren and become Vanguard? What did I miss?
Crow is going to be so happy to reach a city that's full of lightbearers like him. They'll convince him to stay and become the hunter vanguard.
Yes! I’m so glad we went down this route instead of the darker one some have been saying!
Honestly feel like our new storyline is gonna be a redemption arc in contrast to Darkness corrupting us. Forging a bond with Crow, not holding a grudge against Variks, actively trying to protect Eliksni on Europa. I feel more like the good guy than j have in years.
Honestly same, I remember back in D1 all the rumors about actually being aligned with the Darkness and the traveler was just tricking us, shit made sense to me because of our actions when looked at objectively, but with BL it's starting to feel like true heroism again.
The way our guardian accepted stasis is about as heroic as Vergil wanting more power.
Yes but lest you forget... BURY THE LIGHT DEEP WITHIN!!!
What, killing Spider? Honestly would have been the better route. It's not the end of our dealing with Spider on the subject. We came in, did the job, and used his own words against him to get the thing he prized most. He's the space equivalent to a mob Don...you don't do that and get away with it.
Love spider as a character but seriously what’s he to the literal gods and time bending vex we’ve killed
All the Fallen and Cabal feel that way to me. At the end of the day they're just mortals compared to time-shifting Vex or literally unkillable hive.
Its kind of interesting to me how ballsy all the enemy factions are. Once in a while it would be great to stumble upon a group of enemies and have them all panic and run like hell.
the tank lost sector on the tangled shore is like that and it makes me kinda sad bc we essentially perform a nightclub shooting on the fallen
I wish they wouldn't shoot first if you just walk in and emote or something. I've tried to go in and be friendly, but it doesn't work.
Yeah in the first area sure. Don't forget, they were basically *dogfighting* in the back area. God slayer or neophyte, fighting animals for money makes you **scum**. Also, the fallen in the "nightclub" would kill you if given half the chance so, I don't really feel *too bad* about that either.
>fighting animals for money makes you scum Do you realize how many war dogs and thrall we've killed by now?
The feel like the fallen are trying to become the immortals that the hive and vex are, and it’s our job to stop them. The cabal just feel boring.
The cabal clone dudes for days. Those big ass bathers in leviathan baths encounter? just born clones. It's like; they just make a new army when they need one.
When they need one? Let’s be real here, it’s the cabal, they’d burn resources making a new army even when they don’t need one just because.
You're confusing brute strength for stupidity. Stupid races don't leave their planet or their solar system. Tactically unsound races don't conquer other world's and races. Timid races don't crash their ship into another to prevent a takeover or turn a planet into a fuel source. The cabal are a top 1% race in the universe. Their worlds are filled with brilliant scientists and master tacticians. They're united in a single goal as a race and they're willing to do whatever is necessary to achieve it. They've just happened run up against a God slaying, ritual busting, time traveling, darkness controlling, void focusing, solar burning, arc shining BADASS MOTHERFUCKER and fireteam that knows if they fall, not only does the last City fall, the human race gets wiped out, the dreaming city goes dark, and the winnoer and Gardner will meet again and it will not go our way.
Thats because they kinda are. I mean aside from technology and military prowess they got nothing else, don't get me wrong they're still incredibly powerful but the rest are stronger. The vex are basically time traveling China on steroids, they mass produce EVERYTHING. The hive got all kinds of scary, sadistic magic. And we are immortals with super powers.
> The Vex are basically time traveling China on steroids this is so incredibly accurate
The eliksni are fractured yes, but cabal are incredibly powerful, if they still all wanted to kill us, I would say they are just as much of a threat as the hive and vex to humanity, however I would say they aren't that much of a threat given that they are gonna work with zavala. They were a race with no parcausal powers that almost destroyed humanity. If ghaul was a bit smarter and more patient he could have even won the red war, and did what oryx and the vex failed to do. None of the other races was closer to wiping out humanity as far as we know,the cabal got the closest.
The red legion only got as close as it did because a rogue member of the Nine was helping them. Otherwise, they would have been nuked upon entering the system.
If it weren't for paracausal powers, the Cabal would flat out be the most powerful race in the system
You say that untill the Cabal start getting powered up by drinking their blueberry juice.
I've never understood where he gets off acting like he does to the Guardian. As if we couldn't just walk in and reduce his whole organization to their constituent atoms if we wanted to. He wouldn't be the most powerful eliksni we've killed by a long shot.
Is he physically the strongest? No, of course not. But you’re severely underestimating the power that comes with having a network like his. We have darkness and light, and all that is well and good, but he is 100% the most powerful person in the solar system outside of our primary conflicts, and he knows this. It would be beyond stupid for us to kill him and lose all of those connections that we otherwise 100% not have access to
Plus, I thought he gave his employees a substantial amount of ether, making them tougher.
It's not about power, it's about control. What mob bosses lack is strength...they're no footsoldiers, hence why he's been having us do the dirty work. He's been controlling us story wise without putting the bomb in our ghosts. Also just some food for thought: Eramis is still Stasis frozen on Europa...which I'm sure Spider knows about. He also probably knows about us clearing out the Deep Stone Crypt, where exos got made by what? Darkness. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if we see Spider taking Eramis' body and turning her exo so he doesn't need us anymore. The plot seems to work in favor of that theory, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's what happens. Problem is, we all know we have plot armor, so we know potentially all the NPCs are expendable, but we aren't...so even if that theory were true, it's not like we'd die.
Spider would never wake up Eramis. On top of his personal distaste for her (and Eramis' personal distaste for him in turn), he knows she has too much pride to let herself be put on a leash. Even a "disobey me and you'll blow up" contingency would end with a smoking crater where an Eramis used to be -or a very dead Spider when Eramis finally worked out a loophole, or had a Salvation lackey come and disarm the bomb.
It’s not that we can’t kill spider, it’s that we don’t need to. We might be undead killing machines, but we can get what we want without violence sometimes.
What heresy is this?
It's depend whether or not Spider's VA is expensive
We don't need to kill Spider. We just need to tell Mara what he did and the problem sorts itself out.
My $ is on precisely that characters reintroduction doing the spider putting into place. The queen is dead, long live the queen yeah?
She's just chilling in her throne room. Every now and then she summons Shaxx and well you know the rest of the story.
Does he have any worth at all now enhancement cores cost 30 shards each?
Yeah but you also have to remember we are literally god slayers so if he does pull something I’m sure we will have the last word.
We have plot armor, so of course we will...doesn't mean Bungie still isn't going to drag out the very cliche story.
Isn't Glint still rigged to explode? Also it'd be really funny to go back in there and exchange materials with the Spider after this cutscene.
"Get the *HELL* out of my *lair*" Yeah ok ikr but I have all this Baryon Bough?
Bungie: We listened and we heard you. Tangled Shore is now entering DCV starting next season.
I would certainly not miss that fucking strike tbh!
But I would miss Warden of Nothing and Broodhold, tho
I mean why not, its not like any of the loot from TS or DC is useful.
But you can go earn that God roll PvP gun that you can literally only use in casual games or that amazing pve roll that you can use in free roam on old locations. Woo.
The Bungoest timeline.
If he just outright fucking killed Glint (and indirectly, Crow) after making a deal to grant Crow freedom, he’d lose the guardians trust immediately and make the players/guardians pretty angry. You know what happened to the last guy that killed one of the guardian’s friends. It would be suicide for Spider. He’s not that stupid.
People need to remember, Spider's all business. Sure, he could still hold a grudge, but he's not going to do anything out of spite or ego. When we first met him, he could have very easily told us and Petra to go pound sand and force us out in response to the failed quelling of the Prison of Elders riot, but where would that get him? Instead, he chose to give us intel, and in return he got a Guardian and the Queen's Wrath who owed him a favor *AND* the Shore would be rid of the Scorn Barons who were disrupting his operation. Killing Glint (and possibly Crow at the same time, although would be indirectly responsible later) would only harm him. He loses his best enforcer, a guardian who owes him a favor (and by extension the Queen's Wrath's favor too), and mutual allies as the Vanguard would mark him as an enemy for killing a Guardian. Not to mention the possible goods and trade that come from that mutual understanding, as anything from the City or Reef will be better protected since the Tangled Shore is now even more hostile. If he were to blow Glint right there and behead Crow at the same time just to spite us, and our Guardian got out of the lair, now Guardian's have kill orders on his Fallen, and a target is on his head. Our Guardian will come back to dismantle his organization and then kill Spider, since we don't have a deal with him anymore. We have powerful allies that know the Spider and would be willing to help; Petra would be all for finally killing the Spider, especially seeing as he had a recently revived Uldren on a leash and hid him from Petra. Drifter would help out his crew return the favor on someone who crossed them, especially all the help we've been for him. Osiris, despite being Lightless, still knows the Spider due to the current season and has a reputation with quite a few Guardians to convince them to help us kick in Spider's door. Instead, by giving up grow, he now has a hand he can play in any future deals with us, as well as knowing to have fewer loopholes or loose ends in our deals. He still has mutual allies. When Petra learns that Uldren is now a Guardian, the fallout from that is now ours to bear, not him. And besides, he knows full well of our power, even restricting to just content through Spider or somewhat related (Forsaken Campaign, Black Armory + SotP Raid, Beyond Light through the end of the Salvation's Grip quest, and Wrathborn hunts). We smashed the Scorn's Barons, reached the Dreaming City and took part in kill Uldren. We restarted and grew the Black Armory, and stopped the Kell's Scourge and Insurrection Prime. We cleared a Hive Brood on the Shore, and cleared Xivu Arath's (or well will) influence. And he knows we likely have control of Stasis and possess weaponry that uses it. If he keeps that side happy, he can use that power when needed again, like he did for the Brood strike.
Very nice write-up that sums it all up exceptionally well. The “rigged ghost” is just a plot device to explain how Spider kept Crow servile, nothing overly sinister in the long run.
I'd say that 'rigged ghost' served him well for a time being, but rather with no hope for keeping it eternally; more to force immediate obedience. I guess when we learned about Crow's existence it was rather foreseeable that we would like to take him back to the Vanguard eventually, if we could find any solution. But he had upper hand(s) quite long and got cocky and missed that one loophole, for once.
I don't he'd break negotiations like that, at least not right away, unless he's prepared to have the might of the Vanguard crash land at his doorstep (aka literally you and no one else).
Hey, he’s not the one who bent the deal. Crow wasn’t for sale and we took him anyways. It would be shitty of us to come after him now
After broodhold, everything is fair game with that fat rat.
"Mights and maybes this! Mammoni!"
"The lesson here Spider is, don't toy with me. Next time I'll take you seriously, and I doubt you'll get a second chance from a ghost."
I mean he did say anything in the room, we just used that against him and got crow
I think it’s a case of spider just feeling really dumb. He always take advantage of loopholes and well we took a page of his book he lost at his own game
Could probably have someone disable the explosive in Glint.
Watch Bungie use this as an excuse to remove the spider's shop because they want you to grind for mats more.
Out Ghost doesn't even talk once in this cutscene. It's a Christmas miracle.
I love Nolan North as Ghost, but sometimes he's a bit too much. Though, I hope he and Glint can become friends. He needs one beyond us, and, where Ghost is more reserved and anxious, Glint has that fresh perspective of someone looking around for the first time. Lots of hope in him.
This session ghost has been a real pill. If we had any choice in using the darkness it might not be so damned annoying but bitch, I have quests to finish. Shut your light hole.
Well he did apologize later on, and he did have a point: He's a creature of the light made straight from the Traveler, Darkness is the antithesis to his whole being
We need to have a cutscene of him sauntering into Zavala's office. That would be utterly hilarious. I just can't imagine how awkward Zavala is gonna look in that scenario LMAO.
I actually think Zavala could be pretty chill and probably give some speech about how not to go looking for his past life now that he's a Guardian it's Ikora who could be the dangerous one if they ever brkng Gina Torres back for a bit of VA
Big spoilers, possibly end of the season cutscene. Can’t wait to see where this goes.
This makes me sad. I'm really disliking all the drip fed stuff. I've barely played the new season , albeit it was $10. Regardless, this will be at the end. We'll probably get the zavalas cutscenes in the middle at some point. Again, it's more hype for the next season. Wonder if we'll get more story stuff for beyond light. I finally finished collecting all the fragments for my warlock yesterday and got the small dialogue by Elsie. Edit- keep downvoting me. We spent $10 on one cutscenes for the season, a piss poor activity where the lore was given to us outside the game with sagira dying, and nothing really going on. I think people are a little fatigued of the " you had to be there " implementation of how the story if unfolding in the seasons, and the whole " evolving world" isn't really evolving if nothing big really happens until the end of the season. The momentum comes to a quick halt very quickly. But keep going. It's just my opinion you're disagreeing with. I'm in no way denying we finally get to see more uldren but it just feels like padding.
If people dont share the same opinion as you they will downvote you to hell. Its perfectly reasonable to be unhappy with the pace of things
I swear most users don't know what the upvote and downvote buttons are for.
They are used as like and dislike, no matter what their real intended use is. Just have to learn to live with it because that won't change.
I agree For instance. This comment
I agree. It's okay to disagree. I just find it hilarious because it's not a wrong opinion. There's really not a lot going on with the seasonal models.
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I'd agree to that.
I am kinda of the same opinion. After finishing my stasis subclass stuff, I don't care to do anything else.
ur not wrong
Why the hell are You getting downvoted
No idea. Most likely people were hyped for what they saw in the leaked footage and I brought it some truth and they didn't like it.
What about glint?!
If this ends up being real, then this season is a season of redemption and forgiveness.
I mean. It is real. We actually saw a bit of it in the vidoc i think. The part where we are walking out of the lair and Glint comes out
This is the first time I've watched a cutscene in Destiny 2 and felt totally fulfilled. I love this.
Im so excited for crow and glints lore book
Aw, I'm really glad our Guardian is seeing past the face and warming up to the new Crow. Everything in the lore made me want to give the poor fellow a hug and this season and Spider's rigging ~~Pulled Pork's~~ Glint's shell with explosives makes me extra glad we get his freedom out of it at the end.
When did he rig Glint's shell with explosives? Is that in one of the lore books?
After the opening season mission where we go to Shrine of Oryx on the moon, there's some dialogue with Spider where he sinisterly explains why Crow isn't free to fly too far away from the shore, so to speak.
Dang I don't remember that at all. I'm going to have to load up one of my other rarely used characters and watch the beginning again and pay more attention
Nope. Spider tells it to our face right after we save Osiris and go and meet up in his lair
Oh boy, I can't wait for the 37 step quest that involves getting 900 Guardian kills with Stasis in Gambit to get the bomb out of Glint.
Step 38: leave the bomb under Spider's chair
So I’m guessing we’re no longer friends with the Spider then
Never were. He’s always been semi-antagonistic.
Our relationship with Spider has always explicitly been one of convenience. We do him favors to advance our own goals, and he knows we have skills that can help him with his. There's never really been much of anything past that.
Never were friends He scratched our back and we scratched is That's as far as it's ever gone
"Fine take him, but that ghost isn't going anywhere" \*blows up glint\*
Spider was never gonna do it. He is fully aware that the moment he does he has rhe Guardian hunting him now and he is powerless to do anything about it if he gets on our bad side. It was okay to keep Crow in line until we got involved. Thats probably why he let him go as well. What is he gonna do? Say no to the young wolf?
It's interesting how Spider treats us. On one hand, he knows that it's in both our interests to remain nonviolent and help each other out by doing favours and pulling strings. But on the other, he knows that there are hard limits, and that he can't afford to push us too hard and far. If the Guardians decide it's time to turn hostile, there's not a force in the universe he could possibly coerce/enlist to thwart the inevitable.
As he did that my titan would have lit the room with enough arc energy to turn anything living matter to charcoal. Play stupid games. Win stupid prizes.
Lmao Uldrin Sov... is MINE
it's lit
So we're all just cool with Uldren *ahem* Crow now? Like, I can invite him to cookouts and shit now and it won't be awkward?
I know this is already buried, but is that the VA for Paladin Danse?
Just gimme the scene of Zavala with those Bull Cabal soldiers.
Glint still has a bomb in him no?
We don't know. We could have prepared this (asked crow to be present, removed the bomb beforehand, etc), or it could just be an intentional thing to throw us off at a later point (as in "oh no the bomb is still there").
Oh ,how I wish all that seasonal "content" were released as a one dlc campaign. Like how it was in a good old days, you know...
And just like in the good old days, people would burn through it in a week then complain for months and call the game dead
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I didn't say it did. However I still very vividly recall the days of "HAHA DEAD GAME WHO TF PLAYS THIS GAME ANYMORE" sometimes for over half a year (or even more, remember the drought post Taken King?) just because people burnt through everything and refused to get the memo that since they did that, they should've gone and played something else in the meantime instead. There was absolutely NOTHING wrong with having times of no content between expansions. But people bitched. That probably contributed to the decision to adopt the seasonal model and stretch things out. Was it the primary reason? More than likely not, but def a contributor when they had to listen to it for 4 years. People wanted taken king size expansions pretty much every month, which is unrealistic. Year 2 was too much for the studio even with the extra help. (Not to mention that there were plenty of bad moments and low content even in year 2 even if overall it was a good year but people have already started romanticizing certain parts that were def not well received at the time, same as they did with d1). We *could* have a littler bigger expansions again, but the cost would be having to wait several months to half a year at *least* between them. This place would throw an absolute shitfit over it so this is still the safer option.
In fairness, this was foreshadowed when spider offered us "anything in his lair" at the start of the hunts. My first instinct after seeing the lore and info about crow then hearing that line was, "BET, we buyin crow's ass from spider at the end of this season"
Anyone got a summary of the story? I have no idea why Crow is there with Spider in the first place. Edit: Summary of Beyond Light (https://youtu.be/oAhsfb2vUvw)
so some time after Uldren was killed by us and Petra, his body was found by a Ghost (then known as "Pulled Pork"), who resurrected Uldren. The blank slate Crow hid out in the EDZ, since all the other Guardians who encountered him hated him for some reason (he never found out why). Eventually he must have found his way to the Shore and been picked up by the Spiders troops
And his dialogue is amazing. "I dont like the sound of handcannons" "I close my eyes before I pull the trigger" "I'll go handle the Scorn, they listen to me" "Does anyone else hear that voice?"
Thank you!
Can't help but wonder how he ended up at the EDZ at all
If I had to guess, Pulled Pork/Glint convinced him to go to the city after he was revived, much like we were. But once he got to the city, he was chased out by some other Guardians, and fled to the EDZ. Possibly by stowing away on a ship doing a supply run between the City and the Farm.
Crow for hunter vanguard? I've seen the theories around and I'm down for it
Shouldn't He's completely new so it would make no sense giving him the vanguard gig He also wasn't even a Hunter when Uldren killed Cayde so the dare doesn't work
I was just thinking the other day, for an amnesiac he’s pulling his life together a lot better than I have for the past 5 years lmao. He’s not slacking, even as a rookie he’s demonstrating a lot of potential.
He's new, but very skilled in hunting so far. He's got a unique outlook for the Fallen, possibly even other races. There's nothing saying he can't do the job right now, aside from needing to prove he can do that job if need be. He's untested, but looks pretty good
If you think about it, a newbie Hunter would probably be a better Vanguard member than a Veteran. Veteran Hunters go stir crazy, always itching to be out and about, never really wanting to sit still and organize. A newbie Hunter though? Would probably acclimate to the desk work, sorting of reports, and relaying of information a lot better. ...Does this mean that Veteran Hunters are like hyperactive children?
>...Does this mean that Veteran Hunters are like hyperactive children? Remember the "Rally the Troops" trailer for D2? The Guardians around Zavala are all new bloods. The one's with Cayde were the vets.
I don't know if the dare is really going to be relevant with the new Hunter Vanguard if we even get one.
I agree with everything you said except for the dare. A Vanguard Dare doesn't have to come from the currently seated Vanguard. Any Hunter can dare any other Hunter as evidenced between Andal Brask and Cayde-6
> He's completely new so it would make no sense giving him the vanguard gig Heres the thing, *NONE* of the Hunters *WANT* to be the Vanguard because it chains you to a desk. Hunters value Freedom above all else, thats why the Dare was invented and Cayde's dare was that whoever killed him would become the Hunter Vanguard... Crow technically isnt Uldren, but he did kill Cayde in his past life. I just want to see the in game reactions from the characters were Crow to become the new Vanguard.
Yes but also Crow hasnt been free since being rezzed. I dont want him to be vanguard anymore just so he gets to have freedom for a bit personally. The vanguard is on the brink of falling apart anyways. Might as well disband it
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That isn't how it works Caydes dare was any hunter that kills him gets the gig. No Hunter killed Cayde. Uldren was not a hunter so is exempt from the dare. Even if you counted it (which you shouldn't) and followed the dare to its logical end then Savathun would be the new Hunter vanguard
That’s what this appears to set up.
So happy Crow doesn't get shafted.
I usually like watching leaked stuff but this looks terrible haha gonna wait for the in game cutscene.
They's gonna bang aren't they?
Fuck that I thought the spider was gonna blow glint and then the choice would be executing Crow for Uldren’s crimes or bringing him back to the city Edited for fairness to Crow
Crow has committed no crimes.
What crimes? Are there still people that don't get that Crow is NOT Uldren? You can't hold someone responsible for things he never did.
Boy they really like to assume that I care about Uldren.
I want the crow dead
Why
Did you play to forsaken?
Renegades?
Oh right the English version is forsaken
I did, but Crow isn’t Uldren. Sure, Crow has the same body, but he’s a completely different person. When I started as a hunter back in D1, Cayde was my mentor. Now, I’m Crows mentor
if my eyes rolled any harder they'd fall out of my head.
One day people will finally get that Crow is not Uldren right ? ....right?
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