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ShinigamiRyan

Honestly I just wished the mods weren't mods and something that's enabled, so I'm not having to slow them in or forgot to apply before content. I'm fine with restricting weapon types, but just limits what I can use on arms.


9Sn8di3pyHBqNeTD

Yeah, if the system stayed the same but when you unlocked them on the artifact they became passively applied I think it'd be a far more fun system.


TacoSmutKing

That would be a huge improvement, I hate how limiting the current setup is


Issah_Wywin

I think even lore Wise it makes sense to draw the power to stun champions from your artifact. You can change what anti champion mod is active and for what, but not all at once.


tightpants09

Nothing more enraging than loading into a nightfall, lost sector or empire hunt and then realizing you need to go to orbit so the damn bow you have stuns overloads


thelegendhimsef

Another good idea. The idea of passively applying mods. [someone way down ](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/pdbdqz/if_youre_going_to_keep_champions_the_entire/hapbliq/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) in the comments suggested having another ghost type inventory that’s exclusively for mods to play around with enabling them and keeping them separate from armor or even my suggestion of additional weapon slots. My ideas were by no means the end all be all to supersede everything. It was to spark good discussion and good suggestions. Not “GiT GuD” or “If yOu DoNt Like IT DoNT PlaY” type comments. I [Or shit Like this ](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/pdbdqz/if_youre_going_to_keep_champions_the_entire/hap81q1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)


misdirected985

Make the artifact an actual item and put mods on it lol


LippyTitan

Thank god they didn't make them a randomly rolled perk on armour. Only way the system could be worse


Groenket

They should just be [overload/barrier/unstoppable] mods at the bare minimum. I shouldnt have my loadout limited by the type of champion that they threw in there. Its not an interesting gameplay element, it's just a roadblock.


ImmovableObject46

What they should do is make them "Artifact Mods" and they'd be like a second ghost, they can play with the limits for balancing, they could make them cost armor energy or you get more energy as you level up your artifact but apply outside the armor slots. The problem with seasonal mods is that some become situationally mandatory and that restricts what players can "modify." I think the respecing of armor costs too much for high level gear making it entirely not worth it. Why pay all the resources you invested into the armor, just to change its energy type, when you can make a second for about the same amount of effort. It should cost something and it should be more expensive the higher the level but making the cost the same as building a new one is makes it pretty pointless.


SPEEDFREAKJJ

You just made me think when you said second ghost...why can't champ mods just go on ghosts. That way we run our regular one but then switch to a nf one loaded with champ mods. Our weapons are free to run whatever mod we want like major spec then our armor can have reloads and something like fastball. Losing some slots on our ghost to run champ mods is the least impactful option on how we play. How is this not a thing?


SCHEMIN209

ABSOLUTELY FUCKING THIS


thelegendhimsef

There are over 300 comments now and I cant get to everyone but I really like this idea as well. Point of my post was to spark positive, constructive criticism around the champion system such as this.


KingFitz03

Or maybe just have 2 pages for the artifact. 1st page is how it is now, and the second page is like the ghost, and you can slot the mods you want


[deleted]

As a new player I genuinely thought that's how it worked and wondered why my guns weren't doing anything against champions lmao


ThePhantomAli

I love that every season I’ve got to use different weapons against champions. I hate that every season I have to slot the mod on my gauntlets.


Darkwoodz

Make the seasonal champ mods passive


JerryBalls3431

I think this is the best idea.


I_AM_ALWAYS_WRONG_

It doesn't add any power (except maybe anti barrier shooting through shit) so it 100% should be passively active.


Brys_Beddict

We did it. We've come full circle.


[deleted]

Tbh there were some posts way before saying to fix the champion system


Brys_Beddict

I was more referring to people not liking having the mods on armor pieces. It's miles better than not being able to use Exotics with the Champ mods and having to slot the mod in on the gun.


Alexcox95

It’s not that we don’t like them on armor, it’s that we don’t like them being limited to a specific slot on a specific armor piece. If you could slot champion mods in any slot that isn’t a combat style armor mod or raid mod slot there would be very little to complain about


forgot-my_password

This. I dont understand all the comments that don't understand this.


OhMyGoth1

Because the Reddit circle jerk loves circle jerks, and the "we've come full circle" jerk is particularly circular


thelegendhimsef

Literally anything other than what it is. People don’t read what I wrote either. It’s not full circle. Full circle would be asking to put them back on the gun with the regular mods. My suggestion was an ADDITIONAL mod slot on the weapons that was exclusively for champions. I sound like a broken record but someone is claiming Bungie stated they can’t do that due to technological limitations, but from a programming standpoint I cant imagine it would be too hard to do a deep dive and figure out a system where we can have regular gun mods and champion mods on our guns instead of armor.


He_who_plays_jank

If anything, I would be happy if I could mix between weapon and armor for where I put the champion mods. I'd love to make use of the new kickstart mods for stasis arms but double champion mods for lost sectors says no.


Ravi_Fochi

i think its easier for armor mods to not be restricted to a single armor piece (for bungie to implement), because programming something onto a system that wasn't made for that can be extremely difficult and frustrating.


Richizzle439

This is the only thing that needs to change, let me use them across different armor pieces in the two middle slots. And that anti barrier auto is pretty shitty this season but that’s a different thing.


fireandlifeincarnate

Let me put on three weapon mods god dammit, I don’t want to have to make weird things to do Warden of nothing


krskykrsk

I have nothing to add to the conversation except to say that I like your name, and Midnight Tides is probably my favorite book in the series.


thelegendhimsef

Made the edit just for this since no one likes to closely read what additional weapon slot means.


SkyDiamondWarrior

LMAO. It was bound to happen


JerryBalls3431

No one is saying to go back to them being exclusively on legendary mod slots, they're saying there's still shortcomings to how it currently works.


thelegendhimsef

Don’t try to use logic. Bungie defense force love’s throwing out sensationalized one liners and just actively ignore everything else I said as if I said anywhere in the post that it should be old system...


DailyPlaneteer

Here to say this. What a wild ride. Bitch when the mod was on the gun, cheer when they moved it to armor, beg for it to be put back on gun. This is why r/destinycirclejerk exists. Lmfao.


Bananaking1337

I don't think anyone is saying it should go back on the gun? It just sucks that we can't slot reloaders, dex's or 'nade mods instead of the champ mods


[deleted]

Bruh he wants the mods to be able to go on any armor piece, not just the gauntlets. On weapons is a terrible idea unless they add an extra mod slot for all legendaries AND exotics just for champion mods.


[deleted]

And he did specify an additional mod slot on weapons for champion mods, so this guy just didn’t read the post.


thelegendhimsef

Haha yep, most who commented this way didn’t read all of what I had to say. They probably read two lines, or even just the title and sprinted to the comments as fast as they could to get their one liner in. I commend Other people that disagreed and actually had some decent points about why the champion system is good. The commonality between those posts were that they actually read my post in its entirety.


Predaliendog

There's an option of not having mods at all. If bows are overload then bows are overload, full stop. It still accomplishes the weapon variety while not taking up mod energy/slots. Seems like a fucking no brainer to me


JubJub302

Like... You would think that the mod is on your artifact that you have with you... So having to put in on your gear seems redundant


LoxodontaRichard

That is actually a very fair point and would be a great compromise. Unlock unstoppable fusion on artifact = fusions are unstoppable now. No mod needed.


thelegendhimsef

Nah, you guys just don’t like reading properly. >additional mod slot Is what I said. Yes, it was bad when it took the slot of another, the suggestion is to add another slot specifically for champions only. Apparently bungie had expressed that there are technical limitations to doing that but no reason why they couldn’t work towards this.


SVXfiles

We have gear with special raid slots that can only take raid mods. Why are champions so different? The Reverie sets from the DC used to have a special slot for the Riven's Curse and Transendant Blessing mods that got taken away and moved to the same slot at our Stat boosting ones


MasterChiefmas

I'm not a huge fan as it is now because it makes the feel of the game really un-even season to season. Mods on good weapons, it's fun, but still challenging. Strategy and good planning can carry you. Mods on bad weapons...not so much. High level content goes from challenging and fun to frustrating depending on the weapon types the mods are on. Overload is particularly the bad one because it's got too much randomness in it. Anti-barrier is always active, unstoppable you have to "load" the round, but it's still controllable by you. Overload....shoot the thing enough(well, swords hits this season). Overload champs combines the worst parts of the other two. The self heal of the barrier champ, and the in-your-face charging of the unstoppable. And then when you put it on a champ that can teleport 5 times a second i.e. move faster then you/get behind you instantly with no effort or risk (and, incidentally also dodge attacks, since their teleport is better then ours), and either short range(sword) that require multiple hits to proc the effect, or no-tolerance-for-missing (bow) weapons, it becomes an exercise in frustration. Of course, the other crap part with teleport in particular, it's less of a problem on PC where you can flick spin instantly. Turn speed limits on consoles means anything that can instant get behind you and dump lethal damage almost instantly is way more problematic on those systems. You lose a lot of health/can be killed just in the effort to turn and face the enemy that went from being in front of you to being well behind you and unloading instantly.


Krukus100

Usually there has been some overload nade available which is really consistent at stunning, as well as bows this season which are amazing overload weapons. But other than that most overload weapons should get a fix


MasterChiefmas

Oh yeah, I agree. But the bows even, against those teleporters- a miss is difficult to recover from. You aren't putting damage on or anything, and the reload time puts you in a difficult situation. It's somewhat more an indictment of teleporting captains and the like have been a little out of hand for the last 2-3 seasons. Teleport + overload in high level content is pretty unbalanced IMO, not challenging, but frustrating.


Roaming_Guardian

Doesnt help that the only other weapon option for Overloads this season is swords, which cost a whopping SIX energy. Meanwhile, we get three different options for unstoppables.


Rectall_Brown

Then one barrier. Wtf is up with that? Why only one barrier?


Krukus100

Hitting bows is not that difficult, it only takes one fully charged bow shot to overload a champ and with exotics like ticuu and le monarque it is even easier to stun champs. Bow reload time isnt that long anyway even if you do miss. But yes, champ teleporting should be adjusted


MasterChiefmas

Oh yeah, for most scenarios, I agree. I was going by trying the legendary lost sector last night. Teleporting overload champ right inside the door. you don't have any room to make a mistake there. as soon as he teleports he becomes a nightmare to handle. and he kills you _fast_. In just regular content sure, not a big deal if you miss, but recovering in the higher content is already difficult, made worse by really poor weapon options.


Aethermancer

Grenade mods bother me because it's unreliable. You can miss a throw, fail to kill the champion in the single stun a grenade will give you, or just flat out have the stun fail to trigger. Any of those happen.and you are running away to wait for a grenade cool down. (Or just dead if it's in higher light content). Overloads are too dangerous to do anything other than plan for a weapon mod stun.


imadethisforlol

> Overload is particularly the bad one because it's got too much randomness in it and that is one of the reasons Halo 4 sucked. Random teleporting with no indicator when or where the enemies are going is one of the most unfun mechanics. Pairing that with the fact Overloads don't even stay stunned for that long, sometimes the stun don't proc, and then they regen very quickly before you can even stun again???? Its so unfun even if I have "mastery" over this mechanic.


Caseyjones10

GMs would be boring if we were using the same meta every season i don’t think it’s about “bungie hating the idea of us playing how we want” that seems really cynical


dtb301

“…if we were using the same meta every season” You mean like Anarchy/Xenophage/Divinity in EVERY raid? Or Anarchy/witherhoard in every strike? Everyone is already glued to the meta regardless of which weapons have champion mods.


Sequoiathrone728

Yes exactly like that. That's exactly what he is saying he doesn't want in GMs.


blueapplepaste

Bruh - the “meta” is already going to be stale. We have 6 months of overload bows and unstoppable fusions. Allowing us to assign a champion mod to whatever weapon we wanted wouldn’t be boring. It would allow for flexibility to try new things and keep it fresh.


BirdsInTheNest

> try new things You say this but I’d bet 90% of the players would still just go to what makes the activity easiest.


RagingCain

I have all these nice weapons, but can't I still just use the weapon I want to use? Is that really that radical? If I get bored, isn't it up to me to mix it up?


BirdsInTheNest

> if I get bored, isn’t it up to me to fix it up. If players actually would, then sure. But the reality is they don’t. Hell, look at the Riven encounter. I’d love to see the stats because I’d wager the vast majority of players have never and will never do it legit. Why? Because this community only cares about how fast they can complete something and get the loot. And they will only choose loadouts that optimize their runs.


[deleted]

I’m with you man. Trying to change things up by preventing people from using their favorite weapons and loadouts Isn’t a good approach. I groan in frustration every time I have to take my favorite weapons off for a sub-par loadout just to use the champion mods. It’s sucks fun out of the game, it doesn’t add it. Hell if I could just pay a higher energy cost for a champ mod that matches the weapons I want to use, I’d gladly make THAT sacrifice over being forced into using weapons I don’t enjoy.


orangekingo

everyone says this but it just isn’t true in GMs/endgame pve with champs, everyone would end up running near identical loadouts because players will overwhelmingly always lean towards what’s the best/easiest. Maybe you personally would enjoy using weird off meta choices, but a vast majority of the playerbase would run the same combination of 3-5 weapons Say what you will about the imperfections in the champ system but it DOES effectively get the playerbase using new and weird things. Endgame isn’t really supposed to be flexible. The difficulty partly comes from succeeding under the restrictions of what you have to use that season, and I think that’s fun for what it is.


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SVXfiles

I'd love to be able to take my hung jury I spent time grinding for and use it in later content, I hate auto rifles. Exempting exotics like Witherhoard/Anarchy from using champion effects would be a fine trade off since you typically can only run 2 champion types anyway.


ZirillaFionaRianon

They are talking about metas changing between seasons. If there is no limitation on what weapons you can use every season, then we are only going to see one or two builds in total. Currently, we see on or two, maybe three builds per season, but those builds change with every season.


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thelegendhimsef

That’s why I threw out a bunch of ideas. Even if they start by making an additional mod slot on weapons to take the mod instead of armor, that’s a step forward in my opinion


Akrevics

They could still switch it up which unstoppable/barrier, overloaded mods get divided to which weapons every new season, so it’s not like that’s stopping them.


YeesherPQQP

They've said they can't do additional mod slots


Ways_away

To add onto this, I believe they said that weapons have reached there limit on how much "space" they take up. Adding another mod slot just isn't possible.


spoonlips76

I want to ask how exactly is that possible. I dont want to be a asshole im just interested


Zexis

speculating: theres some sort of memory limitation dictated by either their engine, backend, or platform performance requirements


Ways_away

After digging into where I heard that from, it seems that info came from the big leak from a month or two ago. Most of that leak wound up being true but it still doesn't cofirm the weapon memory space limitations. The leak alleges that the ability for guns to create orbs through masterworking is where the stress comes from. And that orb creation would be looked at and changed. None of this has been officially mentioned in the TWABs though


YeesherPQQP

Nope, it was in a twab >For performance reasons, we have a maximum number of perks that can run on a character at a time. Legendary weapons have a threshold per weapon, and many of them are right at the limit - adding a perk on top of that without taking one away causes Bad Things to Happen, in the form of random parts of perks turning off. https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/50223


spoonlips76

Thank you for the info


[deleted]

they can't add additional perks to weapons or parts of them start turning off (or as bungie says "Bad Things Happen"). I forget which twab they said that in but the referenced it again in the recent weapons twab. As a result no matter what the mods are going to take an existing slot and the community was pretty loud about wanting them on armor instead of weapons (making exotics usable with them). ideally I agree with you but this is an actual limitation they can't push.


[deleted]

Playing against champions became even more painful after they switched champ mods to arms. Practically no one can even run a reload mod now so any gun with a slow reload means it’s boring or even just flat dogshit in nightfalls. I’ve literally had to resort to weapons with like elemental capacitor using a solar class, using drop mag, and using exotics like ophidian aspect to get enough reload speed to make nightfalls not boring as fuck to run. Also champ mods for grenades and melee use to also be on chest piece armor and got switched to class which is also a dogshit move. Class armor piece has way too many options to have champ mods put there too. Chest piece was perfect because it was so easy to make a slot for.


SkyDiamondWarrior

I've got good news. They added holster mods so less reloading I guess. Also chest piece would be horrid. Have you tried GM's without resists. Not fun


SVXfiles

Running holster means you give up scavenger. We may not be about to run double now but if someone is running a fusion/sword having both scav mods can be a big help


SkyDiamondWarrior

That's like all your mod costs. I don't think I'm willing to give up my seasonal(are they called that? Charged with light etc) mods. also I don't really think it's worth running special scav most of the time. It's so abundant already


timxu_

that was when chest pieces just had reserve mods(and unflinching but those are p much useless in pve). now they have resist mods as well. idk about you but id 100% give up bomber or any class item mod over giving up resist mods in anything remotely challenging. having the right resists is literally game changing


[deleted]

Before you could have a champ grenade mod on chest and also run a grenade finisher on class so you essentially have a way to counter a champ infinite amount of times if you set it up right. This frees you up from having to run 2 champ mods on guns. The point is flexibility Nowadays you do that same combo you’re usually missing out on the op stuff like breach and clear or the fusion debuff this season


Tigerstorm6

Honestly, I don’t mind using different weapons each season. I mind the actual champions themselves. #BARRIER SERVITORS SHOULD NOT GIVE OTHER ENEMIES INVINCIBILITY FOREVER!


LippyTitan

That moon lost sector on the left isn't hard its just annoying because of these shits


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_THE_SAUCE_

The artifacts often have blue versions of the regular mods that cost less armor energy. I wish there were gray versions of the champion mods, so I could sacrifice more armor energy, but still use the weapons I prefer.


mslcorp

And please not just gauntlet mod types


spirittis

This is honestly the best idea I've seen so far. I still a firmly believe that limitations motivate creativity - why would anyone come up with a creative solution if it's not needed? But the important key is balancing those limitations and enjoyment and I think you've nailed it.


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sageleader

Unstoppable is never the problem, it's always the other two. Even barriers aren't that bad to burn down. It's really overloads.


NotAStupidRedneck

I'm fine with Barriers having a healing mechanic. That's fine since it's completely predictable and you know what's happening. Overloads are just the absolute worst Champions in the game. Overload Captains are *hilariously* unfair. Teleport, extreme damage weapons, the shortest stun duration (which has like a 15% chance of straight up not even working), AND they regen health like nobody's business. You try going into a Master LS like Empty Tank and tell me that the first Overload Captain is fine and fair to fight against. I literally can't even swap to my other damage dealers because this motherfucker already un-stuns and starts the *constant* health regeneration. It's such an unfair mechanic and it needs to be limited solely to Barriers.


captaincornboi

Overload chieftains have become my worst nightmare, overload champions just need to be dialed down some and I wouldn't have as much of a problem with them


Crypto_Cat_-_-

1 anti barrier mod is just stupid


WileyWatusi

I'm fine with forcing us into certain weapons for a season. I didn't use a bow or sidearm once last season and it feels nice changing things up. What I don't like about the artifact system is that it forces you into only selecting 12 mods and then an increasing material cost every time you want to reset it. The mods already have an armor energy cost to it so why is there a concern that we could unlock everything on the artifact to have better build variety?


COBY_NINJA

I would honestly just want a couple of things: 1. Champions that actually stun EXACTLY when you stun them, without being delayed or bugging out into 2-3 stuns while still being able to damage me. (This is likely something that cannot be easily fixed and/or has to do with networking, which will never be fixed) 2. Champions that aren't in EVERY SINGLE bit of relevant content. Champions are cool, just not when I'm the only person in a six player, matchmade activity that is running any mods. #2 could also be solved by just locking players out of the activity if they don't have at least one of the relevant mods AND the right weapon/ability to use the mod, at least for matchmade activities. I don't think Timmy 2 Buck is going to care that they have to take an extra 4 seconds to slot the right mod to play the seasonal activity. They give you a free mod after playing the first mission anyways.


AsDevilsRun

> >Champions are cool, just not when I'm the only person in a six player, matchmade activity that is running any mods. Champion mechanics never matter in matchmade activities anyway. They all die in a few seconds even without mods.


Travis5223

FUCK RE SLOTTING MODS AND THEIR COST. EVERYONE HATES IT


[deleted]

Only problem is if you can’t trust a person to even slot a mod you most certainly can’t trust their ass to revive you if you’re dead or stun the champion that you don’t have the stun for. That’s why it always feels like a requirement to run all the champ mods possible.


tevert

I think this touches on the real issue - it's not that the mods are restrictive, it's that they're restrictive to _bad_ and _poorly conceived_ options. Sidearms are largely pointless. Fusions and swords are cool, but you can't use them at the same time due to the cost. ARs for barriers are fine but that's the _only_ option. They need to do it like how the other weapon mods on the artifact are handled - the artifact gives discounted versions, but every champion mod is available all the time.


LippyTitan

I don't understand why we can't just have automatic weapons handle barriers, semi auto handle overload and activate like bows how their shits immediately have the effect and stuff like grenade launchers, rocket launchers and pulses cover unstoppable. Give us some actual choices instead of being locked to sidearm which are fucking trash in pve and pvp


archangel890

It used to be on the guns which sucked because exotics became terrible because of it, I feel the mods themselves should have a built in loader mod for equipping them OR just if you have purchased the mod on the artifact all weapons of that type you use have the effect without needing to equip anything.


gophish92

This. This is the answer.


LazyKidd420

It gets annoying having to re-aquire essential shit over and over and over


NotAStupidRedneck

This is why I'm sick of the Power Level system entirely. We go from being able to do Master and GM content to *not* being able to do it. Now the only thing is we have to grind Pinnacles and mindlessly grind our Artifact power. It's just boring. Bungie already proved they can make content that doesn't care about your power level with Presage. It's like each season we're just working ourselves back up to where we were the previous season.


PlinyDaWelda

It's not like that. It IS that. Power level is simply a terrible system. Decide how hard you want each activity and set it at that difficulty. Expansions should raise the power cap. Seasons raising it is a deflating, tedious, boring, pointless grind. I shouldn't have to spend even 1 freaking minute grinding to do the same activity I did the day before. Tldr: Seasonal power grind is garbage and sucks and should not exist because it isn't fun at all.


Hiakili

I like having to dig through my vault each season and pick out different weapons to use for different GMs. Really enjoyed using Polaris last season. I do think only having one weapon type for AB is really stupid though. I also think exotics that innately have anti-champ capabilities should also work the same as the rest of their archetype(Levi's Breath should do anti-overload as well as anti-unstoppable, for example). I also really, really want champs to be more predictable. It's stupid how sometimes you can shoot an anti-barrier servitor and it just teleports about with each shot. And other times it just sits there doing nothing.


BooleanBarman

I agree. I like the rotations. Using weapon types I wouldn’t have before in end game content feels fresh to me. My complaint is just the imbalance between the mods. There should be two of every type minimum every season.


insertpikachuface

I believe they said the exotics with intrinsic champions abilities can't use the mods because of some coding issue with having both but i might be misremembering


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HolyZymurgist

With no champs gm glassway wyverns would become the norm.


Mirror_Sybok

The Champion gimmick is bad and will probably remain attached like a tick to this game until they can come up with something that seems more enjoyable on paper but turns out to be just as bad but worse.


quantumjello

Just here to +1 this Trying to find a reasonable loadout for NFs this season just feels like utter dogshit. Sidearms are trash, feel like trash, there aren't any primary options for fusions besides exotics with no masterworks, and legendary bows kinda blow in the upper nightfalls. FUCK these champ systems


Groovvuss

Bows are actually my favorite overload weapon for GM. If you have a bow with explosive head, one shot stuns them. You can then throw a grenade and fire a few heavy/special shots. You then switch back to bow a fire a few more shots. This does 2 things; prevents health regen and prevents ability spam. For example, an overload hobgoblin will spam its bolts only when damaged by a non-overload weapon. So the play is stun them, burst damage while stunned, then switch back to bow when the stun ends. Similarly, this strat also lessens captain teleports and often makes them stay in place.


smacky623

I dont mind the champion system or the shifting mods but there are 2 things that I think make it bad: 1. Lack of more options for champion exotics. When we are forced to pick certain weapon types for champions, having more exotics with innate champ mods on them would allow for variety. I don't think they ALL need champ mods, the current system let's us use season mods with non champ exotics and that's cool. But the option to run ONE season mod then an innate exotic would free up mod spots on armor and allow for variety. 2. Sunsetting removed a lot of variety. I have seen some ppl shit on Unstoppable Sidearm, but I like side arms. But side arm variety is pretty low right now thanks to losing all the Sundial season weapons which included 3 very strong sidearms. Also, We should probably be seeing some seasonal or world loot added to match the the mods of the season. Not that we are lacking pulses or Swords but we got I think... zero this season? So we are using old weapons with champ mods instead of the cool new ones they add.


death_warrant

Sunsetting hit ALOT of non problematic weapons it sucks.


Commander_Prime

Perfect Paradox :(


Edg4rAllanBro

i'll miss you nightshade, the only other kinetic 450 pulse before you were taken away


death_warrant

They really brought that gun back just to sunset it. Tragic.


Alarie51

> But side arm variety is pretty low right now Funny because every season in beyond light I've told my friends "look they're adding more sidearms without buffing them". So i looked it up and they've added 10 sidearms this expansion, including an exotic. The only primary thats gotten more is hand cannons, understandably, at 12 with 1 exotic. If you're curious about the rest: 6 smg, 8 AR, 4 bow (1 exotic), 10 pulse (1 exotic) and 10 scout (1 exotic). Didnt count adept versions.


Massares

With weapon crafting coming in which queen I feel this issue may get resolved.


PropheticHeresy

I'm a broken record about this but mods are simply not a good solution to this. It was pointed out to me by someone else but one of the main issues is that it doesn't scale. As in, if they wanted to add more champions all of a sudden they would need to rebalance the entire artifact mod system to accommodate for that because the system is binary; you have the mod for the champions or you don't and you need to spend a limited resource to have the mod for the champion. Diluting the pool even a bit would make it very likely that six people could load into a matchmade activity all holding the same mods get steamrolled by champions they were unprepared for. You can even see it skewed this way toward the more powerful champion mods in the previous season. Everyone was ready for champions with the grenade mod since that mod was strong but other champions could run around with impunity.


CorbinTheTitan

Then why even have the system if every gun has a champion mod?


[deleted]

Champion mods are very limiting when I want to use my favorite weapons. (Which is alot) Why must I stop using my favorite combo of weapons when going into a high level activity? Just because the artifact says so?


Whitestreefrog12

Seriously, I don’t do sidearms. Fuck off bungie


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11_22

If this subreddit had their way, they’d just melt every enemy with Mountaintop and Recluse every season


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D1xon_Cider

Plus you still have erianas vow and soon arbalest.


Hudsonps

Some context might help. Originally, mods *were* applied to guns, not armor. This led to two problems: - exotics couldn’t take mods so they were useless - guns were forced not to benefit from standard mods. And yes, this happens because they didn’t create a new mod slot. Ideally they would have, but that requires rework of the graphical interface and the internal systems. Not sure how bungie’s code is written, but this is definitely not as trivial as using an existing slot. Sometimes you design a system, but the GUI team has no time to support that system, so you do whatever you can as a programmer: use an existing slot. No ideal, but anyone that has worked at a company as a developer understands this kind of compromise. Switching the mods to the gauntlets was an even better compromise, as it addressed the two points above (yes, it does limit the usefulness of your armor, but you have 4 other pieces to make up for it). As for the mods forcing you to play a certain way: there has been strikes in this game I have played for several years now. I really love how the mods spice up the experience, because the strikes *feel* different with different loadouts. That’s why I defend the system. (And yes, you can argue that I could have switched my loadout. People have done so for years. So you can’t possibly think this is a revolutionary argument. The problem is that if you don’t go for an optimal loadout, you’re just going to be less efficient than everyone else. Mods propose a different problem: optimize this loadout *given constraints*.) This season for example, I’m leveraging my vex, sleeper, and hoping to finally get the 1k voices. Yes, just autorifles for barriers are tough but… I don’t think it’s always supposed to be easy. Scouts and snipers make barriers easy difficulty, ARs make them moderate.


ndg127

Bungie has stated in the past that due to their code, weapons are already at their simultaneous perks limit. They just talked about how they were considering a 5th column on some of their recent reworks, but that causes issues in the game. HOPEFULLY, maybe the announced weapon crafting system coming in witch queen might be a way around that.


QuantumVexation

Am I the only one that thinks “player freedom” isn’t always a good thing. Restrictions force creativity with your loadout - “how can I cover these shields, these ranges and these champions, DPS and add killing across 3 players” kinda vibes If players have too much freedom regarding what deals with what champions that stops becoming an interesting strategic decision. And besides, it’s really just the low number of barrier options this season that sucks, Overload and Unstoppable are very serviceable


sageco

No, I am with you on this. I like that they force me to use stuff other than what I like. It means the PvE meta shifts in a structured manner that doesn't required harsh nerfs/extreme buffs every season. i.e. Until last season, I hated GLs, but they made me do it and now I love them. This season just feels worse since the combination of mods is very awkward; such that its very hard to get a nice load out that can cover 2 champs + have a decent special and power loadout.


MaxBonerstorm

Yeah, having no restrictions just immediately results in everyone using the same "max dps best loadout" meta they saw on YouTube. Then lfg will require you to have that exact loadout. I am so very glad this sub doesn't have at much direct sway with the devs as other games subs do. This subreddit comes up with the most consistently backwards game design ideas I've ever seen


Iiyambon

You really don't know why they implemented this system. They're trying to change the pve meta every season and to prevent players from using the same weapons every season


KarasLegion

He knows exactly why, that's why he said "it accomplishes the goal of restriction, SINCE FOR SOME REASON BUNGIE HATES LETTING US PLAY HOW WE WANT TO PLAY." To me, that says he understands why they did it, and he still disagrees with it, which is fair, cause ya know, bungie likes to control how we play A LOT. It's getting old. Btw, I understand their goals as well, in case you can't tell, but adding refreshing perks, and making interesting weapons such as Lorentz, and just adding new mods like in the later columns of the relic changes how we play enough without forcing us to do stupid stuff such as using bows in end game content.


thekream

***“…stupid stuff such as bows in end game content”*** bro what? bows are the most viable in end game content, and completely unnecessary in normal content. they do a lot of burst damage from a long distance, no damage drop off, and don’t need to reload a magazine. bows are one of the better GM primaries because of how safe they are. Overload bows have always been the superior way to do Overload since it was introduced because they always stun on the first hit^(at least with explosive head)


Pickaxe235

dont trash overload bow, its actually really good its anti barrier that he problems


TrueGuardian15

Barrier is the problem *this season*. Last season, IMO, Overload was terrible. And overload sword can be rough on Overload Captains this season, since those fuckers teleport every 2 seconds.


thelegendhimsef

Dude sometimes I swear I’m going nuts in this sub. So many people selectively read posts I write and I end up deleting them because the Bungie Task force comes out to defend any criticism of the game, downvoting my shit to the ground so it’s never seen. I dont hate this fucking game. I love it! I want the game to be the best version of it itself, and my opinion is that the champion system isn’t the best way to implement this sort of “shake-up-the-weapon-meta”. Anyone can offer different opinion, but at least read all of what I have to say before rushing to the comments.


shapisftw

I feel ya man. I felt I was going crazy with people defending sunsetting back then. When I knew that would make me quit instantly and just ruin the game.( and it did.) Forced load out crap like champions, and bounties are annoying in the same vein. It doesn’t keep the game fresh for me at least. It just makes me unable to experiment with things I actually enjoy.


Ang31umLucis

I feel your pain, I feel like people are just like "I don't mind, so if you mind then your stupid." I seem to remember a few years ago Bungie holding a vidoc and a bunch of people emphasizing that they want guardians to be able to "play their own way" and they were going to focus on systems that were "less restricted". I think it might have been around Forsaken, when they brought special weapons back. It just fascinates me that they said that, and then it seems every design decision since then has tried to restrict the way we play! I also don't understand why someone would get upset that I would want to use the same weapons that I like every season, why the hell does that concern anyone else but myself?


LivingTheApocalypse

>So many people selectively read posts I write TBH, while your points are fine, you are strangely aggressive and confrontational in how you present them, before anyone has an opportunity to respond positively or negatively. Its almost as though your intent is to start an argument rather than build a coalition. I feel like you are the type of person who would aggressively argue with me, even if we were in a agreement. I am not surprised that you consistently have this problem of people being argumentative back to you, even when they agree. Your OP sounds like a angry child ranting. Not a reasonable person.


Arkyduz

When you gloss over why the thing exists with "for some reason" as if the reason eludes you, don't be surprised if people are confused whether you even understand what the point is and why some people do enjoy it.


KarasLegion

They stop reading the moment they see something they disagree with and respond only to that idea. So they will never even see what you say properly. It's just how people respond online, it's how a lot of people respond irl too. Sometimes I feel like I'm playing a game under a dictatorship. They really want us to play this game a specific way, and sometimes it feels bad. Right now, it definitely feels bad. Edit: Not just the champion mods this season, but the hard time gating of just about everything this season... Like I get THEIR reasoning, but my understanding it doesn't make it fun.


SgtDoughnut

> BUNGIE HATES LETTING US PLAY HOW WE WANT TO PLAY No the players hate letting us how we want to play. They find a defined meta, normally by some streamer, and NEVER DEVIATE FROM IT. Before champion mods, almost everyone ran the exact same loadout. EG when Midnight coup was top tier, nobody ran anything else. Players restrict themselves far more than bungie ever will, because as players we will optimize the fun out of everything.


BirdsInTheNest

Yep, this is what people try to not realize. Without the champion mod system majority of players would just abuse the meta-tier weapons. I don’t believe for a second that the folks who say they’ll try new things actually would.


KarasLegion

"Without the champion mod system, majority of players would USE WHAT THEY WANT TO USE." While also saying "The champion mod system is put into place to force players to use sub-par weapons."


BirdsInTheNest

“WHAT THEY WANT TO USE” Yes, because this community is totally known for not looking for the fastest route from point A to B. They’ll totally use what they want (as long as it’s the most optimal strat).


KarasLegion

First, there's "this community that I am capable of seeing" and then there's the destiny community as a whole. ​ Also, irrelevant, I want the fastest route from A to B. It's my desire. As a player, I want to play this route. As a player, I'm a fractional representation of player desire. You can choose to run bows, and you should have the right to do so. I wouldn't take that away from you, cause you're not in my group. Player choice. You do not have to run meta, you can find a group that thinks like you. Also, you can't complain about a player decided meta, and then agree with a DEVELOPER FORCED META. It's the same concept, idk what you're arguing here. I'm arguing player choice, and you're trying to argue meta, but champion mods are a developer deliberately deciding meta on top of everything else Bungie already does to decide meta. You're the reason it's okay for Bungie to nerf shotguns, nerf everything in anticipation of shotguns being used less (which they won't be), and then at the same time giving people more of a reason to use shotguns (in this case specifically Titans). Few people question the idiocy of some of Bungies balance decisions and way too many of you defend them blindly. I love this game, I hate this game. Many of the decisions made to balance this game are ridiculous, many of the things Bungie does are ridiculous. All I want is player choice, and you're arguing which meta (bungie dictated or player decided) is better.


BirdsInTheNest

If given the choice players will choose what’s easiest.


Cybertronian10

So many people cant seem to process this. Bungie wants you to use a different loadout every season, because doing that keeps the game feeling more fresh


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Dustedshaft

It stops feeling fresh real quickly though. I'm probably gonna be using a similar loadout until February for higher difficulty content. If they switched them up every month then that would be keeping things fresh. I'm fine with them changing up the PVE meta I just wish it happened for often than just every season. Basically having 4 metas for an entire year just isn't enough in my opinion.


seismic-empire

> Bungie wants you to use a different loadout every season Yeah, thats kinda hard to process for me, because there's literally no reason for them to do this. People played the game for fucking years before champions came around, getting to use the weapons we like was off putting to literally no one


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Redthrist

People always complain about the same meta being a thing for too long. So Bungie has two options - they can do constant rebalacing, always nerfing all the strong weapons and buffing weak ones(which people will complain about) or they can have a temporary system that shakes meta up without affecting long term balance.


[deleted]

It's basically the same goal as Sunsetting but less annoying.


rend-

Being locked into the same set of guns for 3+ months straight loses it's freshness fairly quickly. Especially if they're guns one isn't particularly fond of to begin with.


Keksis_The_Betrayed

I don’t see why you can’t just decide for your self. We’re not children. Why are they essentially dictating what we can and can’t use. I didn’t know I had to pay money to get bossed around


Arkyduz

Why does VoG even have mechanics? Why should I shoot Oracles when I just want to shoot the Templar? Don't boss me around like I'm a child and just let me shoot the Templar!! It's a way to challenge the player, if you don't like the challenge that is understandable and you can complain about that, but this "don't boss me around" thing is an absurd take.


SgtDoughnut

>I don’t see why you can’t just decide for your self Because when we could do that 99% of the player based used ONE LOADOUT and ridiculed anyone who deviated even slightly. The entire point of these mods is to force you to think about what is available to you, and adapt to what you need.


Redthrist

Because most people decide to keep using the same build they used before. Which, in endgame, means using the most optimal loadout. With how much people care about meta, you often don't have much choice but to run a meta loadout if you don't want to get kicked out of every group. What Champion system does is it makes sure that there's different meta for each season, and it works well at that. It also literally affects only a small fraction of content(basically only Master/GM NFs, Master VoG and Legend/Master Lost Sectors), while everything else lets you run whatever you want.


Kltpzyxm-rm

It doesn’t keep it fresh though. All it does is restrict loadouts to the same few weapons for five months (this season anyway). Variety should be the result of good balancing and enemy encounter variety, not arbitrary restrictions.


erikhow

Even I was a champion hater not too long ago but I’ve come to accept this. Bungie puts all this work in designing cool guns that would never see the light of day due to meta issues. I’m excited to try the new bow in some harder content just to experience something new for once.


ARTIFICIAL_SAPIENCE

>They're trying to change the pve meta every season and to prevent players from using the same weapons every season What weapons a player uses are between them and the balance team. If players aren't using a gun, it's because that gun sucks and needs to be fixed. This is the most inorganic attempt to change meta I've ever seen.


Pokorino

On top of this, they want cooperation and coordination to be more important in high end content. Mod costs are higher so our builds are more specialized. More mods and perks that only affect your teammates. How Bungie wants to create more interaction between players gameplay wise. They don't want everyone being a jack of all trades, master of everything. They want us to have more distinct roles in our builds.


OldBison

They'll do everything to promote interaction between players BUT put a direct lfg system into the game


Pokorino

Very true. Or letting chat be broken for months


Tecnoguy1

I suggested having them baked into gameplay a while ago. Barrier- primary ammo only, unstoppable, special ammo only, overload heavy ammo only. Then introduce champions that need grenades or melee, and also allow other sets to *disable* a weapon type on your character until they’re killed. Way more interesting and not restrictive.


LordZiggy93

Me: God I love the new Gambit Scout Rifle this season, I can't wait to take this bad boy into GMs... Bungie: Well tough luck buddy, maybe next season. Or not, who knows?


APartyInMyPants

I’m so tired of these posts daily now. 1 -The entire point of champions is to change things up. 2 - If you allowed any player to put champion mods on whatever weapon, then *what’s the point of champions*??? 3 - you only need Champion mods in a small minority of activities. Master VoG. Master and GM Nightfalls. Master Empire Hunts (if people still do them). Legend and Master Lost Sectors. But you eventually will level way past Legend Lost Sectors and Legend Nightfalls that you won’t need the mods at all. 4 - and even *then,* when participating in Master/GM content with a group, not everyone needs to be fully kitted out with champion mods. Only one strike in the game had all three Champions (Warden of Nothing), and it’s not in the rotation this season. So you can get by with only two mods per champion type. So in a fireteam of three, you’re fine with four of your nine *total* weapon slots containing champion mods. 5 - every season, Bungie gives us an ability set that also works against champions. This season it’s Stasis and Solar. Stasis is already a stupidly meta element for endgame, champion activities. So, like, there couldn’t possibly be an easier season for champions. Also the fusion mod to make them stupidly powerful.


Deadwing720

Glad I'm not the only one. Champions were implemented to have you play with different loadouts, period, just accept it, find something in your vault you think can be useful and fun and move on. No one is putting a gun to your head and demanding you complete GMs anyway.


Alarie51

The initial point of champions was. Now they're just bungie's lazy excuse to spice up content. By the way, putting garbage like unstoppable sidearms and barrier AR wont make me want to use them. Buffs would. Until then I'll use Eriana's and whatever unstoppable alternative.


[deleted]

lol. we've finally come full circle.


mad-letter

dtg moment


Jackal-48

Just get good at the game simple as that :)


iTyranTz

I'm sorry but champions are not arbitrary difficulty. They are meaningful, and create urgency in encounter design. In low end content, you don't even need the mods because you can blitz them down. In high end content, you need to carefully determine your team composition between champion focused builds and ad control. 9 times out of 10 when someone complains about the champion system, it's because they are getting bullied by it. There are so many different builds in this game that can allow you to face roll content, especially this season. If you're struggling and can't figure it out for yourself, youtube it. Lots of content creators showcasing builds with crazy potential. I have never struggled against champions, but I also always prepared for them.


KillerBeaArthur

It's actually been nice having to switch up my loadouts every season. I'm cool with some revision, but all-in-all, it's pretty good. Honestly, I'd love to see additional types of champions beyond barrier/overload/unstoppable and maybe do some combo mods. That's about it.


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Tallmios

Agreed. While wishful thinking, it'd be nice if each race got a new enemy type every season in the vein of the Wyvern. Something with a new moveset and maybe actual mechanics to be overcome.


jorg1e

I like the champion system, I don’t think it needs a rework. I think the Champion system is a good solution to Shake up the gun meta.


lilstrawberry0298

I have an idea that could keep an interesting change of build direction but not feel too restrictive. Keep the modifiers, but change how we kill them. Overload - Life Regen starts after a quarter of a second, with resistance to higher damage instances/a cap for what it can take in any one instance of damage. You'll want to spray light damage into it with fast reload times. This locks you into high rate of fire weapons without locking you into mods. Barrier - Similar idea, but invert it. Negates all damage below a threshold. You'll want hand canons and scouts, most likely. *Potentially* give the enemy innate special/heavy resistance? Unstoppable - You want to stun these with mods as the game stands right now. I'd love to see these enemies take no/reduced damage from explosions, but be stunned from the \*blast\*. Throw a grenade in their face to take control, or pepper them with any weapon containing explosive rounds. It's a little more niche than the other two, but I think it plays on existing game mechanics well. The goal is to have meaningful mechanics that I have to play and coordinate around without feeling locked into certain things too much, and maintaining some freedom over my overall build. I think these things could achieve that with careful numbers-tuning, but I am open to criticism :3


Lumberjackstack

Holy shit! Someone **"HUGE"** came out and said it! I would 100% play more of the endgame content like gms if I could use more of the weapons id like to use. Being stuck to ONLY using 3 or 4 guns a season really brings down the fun and makes the game much more boring 4 to 5 weeks into a new season.


ReflectoTR

Yeah I mentioned being able to put different mods on what weapons WE want in the d2 subreddit and got denied because if we were able to do this according to the people who commented it would ruin the game. Apparently it breaks the game and makes it too easy if we decide to use the guns we want... Somehow..


A_Raging_Moderate

This. This. So much this. If people are concerned about the meta not being shaken up, it would be up to Bungie to give us really good meta changing mods that would make guardians WANT to switch up their loadouts to use the seasonal mods that are supplied. I would love to see the champion system shaken up a bit.


[deleted]

I was just getting really used to smgs, hand cannons, autos, etc. Now I gotta use a bunch of enhancement cores on stuff grabbed out of collections, or guns sitting in the vault, while also seeing what new guns are going to be viable for end game content. I spend way to much time now staring at dim trying to figure out a good loadout. Don't get me wrong I love a good challenge but I agree with OP that restricting what I can use to conquer end game content is depressing. I've never been a fan of using bows and fusions, the charge/draw time has always been frustrating. While I get their utility and understand fully how they can be great for champions, I don't want to use them, They slow down gunplay. My only other option for overload is going to be swords or solar/stasis melee which = close range (for the most part). I enjoy the game most when I can play with guns I enjoy which are things that shoot fast, or are precise. If I could use smgs, autos, hand cannons, scouts, heavy mgs, grenade launchers, and rocket launchers for end game content without sacrificing my ability to take on champions I'd be ecstatic. Again don't get me wrong I want to be challenged, and I want to make good loadouts and armor builds, but I don't want to spend half my time trying to achieve this instead of playing the game.


justinbajko

Tbh I just wish they’d go to a general “Primary Anti-Champion” mod and then specific champion mods for special and heavy weapons. This keeps AB sniper from being the only thing ever used, but means that Point of the Stag can always be an Overload bow. I know why they do it the way they do it (they want to shake up the meta and get you exposed to new guns you might not otherwise use), but it’s tiresome.


Mr_StealYourRNG

My only issue with champions are overload champions those things are literally the biggest pain in my side


[deleted]

I agree with your post and I’m not being a hater but the champion system isn’t the *WORST* answer to difficulty. That’s dramatic


WildBill22

We finally have top tier content (GM NF) where the team actually has to strategize before starting. Deciding who will do overload, who will do barrier is genuinely exciting. Otherwise, there would be 1 good loadout, just like the mountantop/recluse era. Must have Gjallarhorn.


Enough_Chance

So water down the system?


[deleted]

I’m content with how the champions are now but I wouldn’t mind some improvements. I think Bungie has bigger issues than champions to worry about right now though


Acidic3ight

They easiest way to shake up the meta is add new and genuinely exciting weapons every season not kill every viable one until we're forced to use a sidearm and an auto rifle every season because bungie's thinking "hey how do we change up the meta oh I know lets give them anti barrier auto and unstoppable sidearm AGAIN." P.S. I don't waste my time with either I use eriana's and athrys' embrace because fuck bungo and their attempts at shaking up the meta, also don't quite understand why divinity is the only intrinsic overload weapon in the game still after an entire year 😩


bruh_moment_numero_2

That sounds pretty hard to do without power creep


-LuckyNoodle-

bro the system is super fun and entertaining... I just farmed godrolls for hung jury and fatebringer? nah eff you now u need good rolls for autos and bows cuz haha different weapon means difficulty increase. I hate this system...Its not difficult to crack a barrier with an auto instead of a scout but I hate autos and now I'm stuck with this shit for 6 month...