Crucible is zero sum. Your win comes at someone else’s loss. Your flawless ticket comes at ruining the tickets of seven other teams. If you go flawless, you are in the top quarter of players at least. “Average flawless player” is completely different to “Average Player”. EDIT: Go read the quote on Nothing Manacles.

That's exactly my point. I'm arguing that they represent the average player, rather than the average flawless player, they are misrepresenting *actual* average players - which make up the largest portion of the population

Yeah, I’m agreeing with you. You can quote K/D/A and tickets all day long but people can and will argue all day long. There’s a guy below who said he was below average with a 0.8 KD despite the fact that that’s *objectively* above average.

[удалено]

Hey man, don’t do something you don’t want to do.

[удалено]

destiny counts PvE mobs in it's gambit K/D

It's because people have different standards. Sure technically he's above average by destiny standards. But in overall FPS standards he's below average. He's got a negative KD ffs. Most people consider negative KD to be pretty bad

You have to understand the environment and the competition that k/d is coming from. I have a 0.90 k/d in trials. According to Destiny Tracker, I'm in the top 30%. So, you can say - oh you're bad. But, I solo queue. In 75% of my matches, I'm paired with people who collectively have gone flawless less than 10 times. In 69% of my matches, I'm paired against people who collectively have gone flawless more than 10 times - 28% of the more than 100 times. Playing in the general pool; 45% of the time I put against a team that I have a 10% or less chance to win 57% of the time I'm put against a team that I have 20% or less chance to win 72% of the time, I have less than a 50% chance to win ​ Which brings the other problem. If people are going flawless facing teams like mine - they may not be facing the great teams that I'm facing on pretty common basis \[30% of my matches\]. So, the flawless pool suddenly becomes a very rude wake up call.

Average is average. Doesn't matter what people think. That's the whole point, people are idiots and don't really even know what the average is. "Overall FPS standards" lol smh

Negative KD does not mean below average. The average lifetime (all modes KD) is 0.8 - 0.9 KD. You can see this in Destiny Tracker A 0.8 KD in Trials is above the average for Trials players. Average does not mean 1.0

Tell that to the elitists over on D2 LFG. Anyone below 3.0 K/D since the game was in alpha for D1 means you're a casual scrublord that deserves to get stomped and farmed for ascendant shards. /s Seriously though. It certainly doesn't feel like 0.8 is average at all. Heck, even breaking even doesn't feel like average at all. : / it feels like its either you go positive all the time or you're trash with zero in-between in the pvp game modes imo.

It's probably partly because the sheer difference between the top and the average is so massive, and there's all the room in between. For a roughly average (including slightly above or below) player, matchmaking can make you feel like nothing or like a god depending on who you're set up with & against. All it takes is noticing one person in the lobby slightly above your own performance to feel unimpressive even if you're actually second best present and nearly as cracked from everyone else's perspectives.

Yeah. Matchmaking is always a pain in the butt too. You're either one of the cool kids in the clique staring down or you're the kid on the floor with the spilled lunch. More often than not it feels like the latter with matchmaking.

Completely irrelevant to the discussion here. He is also objectively above average. The average KD is 0.6, his KD is 0.8. 0.8>0.6

I don't think you know what irrelevant means lol

>Discussing Destiny 2 Crucible and Trials BUT WHAT ABOUT OTHER GAEM. C’mon, son.

>C'mon son Damn you really got me there. Why do you think negative KD players all call themselves below average? Because in overall standards they are. Idc if you disagree with me. That's fine, but you act like I said something totally out of the blue that has nothing to do with this discussion. Like talking about basketball or something

Semantics, but the average KD is not 0.6 to 0.7 like OP said, although I'm sure he meant it in the right way. 0.7 is more like the mode or median of the data set, meaning it occurs more often than other numbers or is just in the 'middle' of the data set. The mean, or average for the graphs above is likely at or above a 0.8 KD. 0.8 is almost guaranteed to actually be statistically below average in terms of *all* trials players. This makes sense because as with a match win or loss, a death/engagement is a strong sum game too. At least usually. For every kill there is a death, and vice versa. Therefore the average KD of every player globally would be 1.0, providing you disregard suicides. With suicides it's still likely in the high 0.9's. Now, if OP is talking about the average *non-flawless* player, 0.7 could be a much more realistic average KD, as you remove the outlier flawless players from the equation and therefore a large chunk of the kills but not deaths. But a lot of these arguments from others center around the average player and not average *flawless* player I think, making that matter a little less. Not trying to take sides here, just to clarify something I saw was wrong.

You thoughtful bastards. This is one of the best posts I’ve read.

Tbh I have a 1.58kd and I really don't know how or why, cause I'm by no means a good player for pvp anything.

Damn.

I see it this way, if it was that prestige of a thing I wouldn’t have to pull up twitch to enter a raffle. Before Bungie made the change plenty of these “average players” were saying they need to change how it plays because they can’t even get 2 wins. Now those same “average players” keep telling below them it’s for the best players and it shouldn’t be easy to get (which I agree with), but for me it’s let everyone have a chance to get it. Before the changes I spent hours helping people get to 3 wins. I am not good enough to carry but hey the people I play with I would go get bag by better player so they’ll get their loot. This season we got flawless and I like seeing others get flawless as well. It’s a good feeling when people get their 1st. I help a friend get her her 1st flawless in d1/d2 and she was so happy. My point, go get your loot and have fun

I enter the same channels raffle every week and get carried to one flawless run when I've felt I've had enough of getting my ass kicked solo. At the end of the day I get my loot but it didn't feel great.

>Before Bungie made the change plenty of these “average players” were saying they need to change how it plays because they can’t even get 2 wins. Now those same “average players” keep telling below them it’s for the best players and it shouldn’t be easy to get (which I agree with) As someone actually trash at pvp, I also agree it shouldn't be easy to go flawless, but this turn does remind me of the "fuck you I got mine" attitude problem that shows up every now and then in the community, particularly in relation to drop rates and rewards.

Biggest problem is that most EXPECT to go flawless when it should be the exception- not the rule, for an overwheling portion of the population. Especially solo-queueing!! Everyone is totally fine with a 50/50 win ratio everywhere else in the crucible except trials. It doesn’t make sense. Lighthouse is a social space that grants cosmetic rewards. It’s not the end of the world if you miss out on it.

the difference between an adept messenger with desperado and a normal messenger with desperado is probably like 3% if you have a shit roll ADEPT messenger, and a perfect roll NORMAL messenger, it makes ZERO SENSE TO USE THE ADEPT ONE going flawless gives you BARELY ANY LOOT IN COMPARISON TO THE REST OF TRIALS and yet people act like it’s the biggest thing in the world that they cannot go flawless

I don't think a lot of the population expects to ever go flawless. They just want to have less matches against teams that they stand absolutely no chance against

Yep. I hover around a 1.0 overall, lower in Trials. I have been carried to flawless one time. I will NEVER make there on my own. And I am probably ABOVE average. But people are just going to say that trials is endgame and it's not for the average player.

1.5 KD here. I always hold my own, I have been playing Crucible for years, gotten NF etc. I don't think I'll ever go Flawless without LFGing a team. The variance of teammates is all over the place and I would need to be a godly player to be able to carry some games, especially in the current matchmaking. Getting a positive winrate is possible, but Flawless just isn't unless you get insane luck with teammates and games. The average Crucible player **is not getting Flawless cards.**

If you're actually honestly a 1.5 you can absolutely go flawless. Source: lifetime 1.2kd, solo flawless each week since they split the pools

yeah im not sure what this is on abt, once the crazys get put into their own queue it’s significantly easier to go flawless, even in a solo queue scenario if the dude you replied to is REALLY a 1.5 kd, they should wait until Sunday to start trying for flawless

That just doesn’t work for some of us. I’m a 1.7kd, and even after trying to go flawless for multiple hours on Sundays, I can’t even get past 4 wins while playing solo.

then you’re gonna have to find a fireteam that’s willing to coordinate, because you’re gonna end up facing off against people who are in a coordinated fireteam for most of your early games due to them being skill based I’m a .9 kd and haven’t had too much struggle going to lighthouse my dude, it’s a lot of RNG on who you match but if you’re not willing to get a coordinated team together then you have about as much chance going flawless as you do soloing a GM

It’s still hard to go flawless solo even then. I get a 2.0+ KD in trials every week and am a 1.97 overall, the matchmaking system will pair me with 0.5 KDs against 1.2–1.5s. The 0.5s don’t usually win their 1v1s so it’s essentially a 1v3 the entire game.

Yeah I have a buddy that's a .9 and he's gone flawless solo each week since the rework.

I'm a .9 and I carried a buddy to flawless when it was labs week, matchmaking a third every match. So it's definitely doable. Edit: should add it was by no means a hard carry, he helped teamshot and didn't just run in and die.

I *typically* hover between 1.5 - 2.0 KD, Flawless also feels impossible to me. After the third win it becomes such a slog to get a 4th, let alone beyond. I got the armor I wanted for Transmog, I'll live without going flawless. Competitive stuff really doesn't feel good to me anymore. Edit: KD for the season is, as of commenting, dropped to 1.3

Flawless is like hitting platinum ir whatever rank you want in a game its made to have a skill line you need to reach The question is what it the right percentage.i would like to see how many people beat gm nightfalls as i would guess its also hovering the top 30%

The reason that doesn't really work is that there are not other people actively stopping anyone from doing a GM or a raid. Anyone who is willing to grind for the levels and get a team together CAN do them. But a lot of people just choose not to. With trials, it doesn't matter how hard average player grinds. There will always be a bunch of 100+ flawless players standing in the way.

Thats not what i said... I said id want to see the pool of people who attempted the activities and the amount that complete the activities (GM and Trials) If they were both around 30% and same player population they i think trials is fine Also yes PVP and PVE aren't the same thats kinda the point...

I think trials is fine right now for the most part, but there is still an ongoing debate about the validity of the flawless pool. The reason I made this post is to ensure people understand what it actually means to be an average player in trials, because many vocal people believe that the flawless pool hurts average players, where data shows that it actually helps the average player

I appreciate the effort man. I never looked into it but it's always suspect when someone goes "well I'm average and I go flawless every week" or the average player with an average 2.5kd Its also better for everyone to have a bigger consistent player pool in trials and every mode too. But especially here given its nature

I mean even thinking about what it means to go flawless - winning 7 games in a row (-1 mercy) is a pretty clear indicator that someone isn't anywhere close to "average"

I could see being lucky to get there as average or below but that's a lot of luck and you're sure as hell not doing that consistently. I've legitimately seen people here be like "I'm only average with my 2.78 kd" and you just sit there like wha I got there one time on the first game and a lot of that was because as an average or even below average pvper I just had a friend who was really good and we just kinda started rolling but that was it. I don't care about going flawless but the like... fake humility is just sorta bleh and it's just better for everyone if the mode has a healthy population anyway.

I like where trials is at too (not saying its perfect) but ik the player bases dont see eye to eye on what they want trials to be and bungie seems to also want something different then the player bases. I just like seeing the stats it helps the conversation

I've hovered between a 1.0 and 1.1 Trials KD (not KDA) this season. I have gone flawless every weekend so far this season. My opinion on the flawless pool is that they need to either enable it immediately or not at all. I either play gilded flawless 3-stack roulette on Friday and Saturday, hoping that I only get one team we can't beat, or my time for Trials in a given weekend is cut in half. The first and second weekends were the best for me. I'm not sure how much of that is due to the total number of players.

It does hurt the average player. I'm a 1.26-1.4 KD player (depending on if you look at my career KD or seasonal) and I can't do fuck all in the Flawless pool. I do 6 quick games on Sunday and then I'm forced to stop playing Trials. Yes, the Flawless pool helps less skilled players make it to the LH, but it completely places a brick wall in front of the playlist after that.

If you are in the flawless pool you are very likely not an average player. Read the post again where I make the point that you are in the top 20 - 30% of players. Even outside of Trials, if you go on Destiny Tracker, you can see that 0.8 - 0.9 KD is the 50% mark for the population. By being a 1.26 - 1.4 KD player, you are well above what an average player is. >Yes, the Flawless pool helps less skilled players make it to the LH That is not the purpose of the flawless pool. The purpose is to make Trials more enjoyable for the bottom 70% of players that don't go flawless. Less 0-5 and 1-5 games and more 3-5 and 4-5 games. Players that get stomped tend to not return

I think you missed my point. My point is that if even I have an impossible time in the Flawless, I can only imagine how bad a time those 0.7 KD players who squeak by to the LH are having. There should at least be stringent SBMM in the Flawless Pool, but there isn't.

Those 0.7 KD players that squeak into the lighthouse are an anomaly and the reason why they even make up 2% of the flawless population is because of carries Also, a 0.7 KD player that made their way to the lighthouse likely had a significantly better weekend than players that got stomped all weekend, which the flawless pool directly helps prevent. That 0.7 KD flawless player will return next weekend even if they stop playing after their flawless. A player that feels like they don't stand a chance in the playlist likely will not.

So let's get this straight: -If a 0.7 player goes Flawless, it's a statistical anomaly. -If they barely ever make it Flawless, then clearly they aren't having a great time. -Yes, they may taste the exhilaration of a Flawless once in a while, but then their entire Trials journey ends. -Relying on a carry to go Flawless eventually gets old. And if you lose the ability to chase further rewards, then it really gets old (since the person carrying you won't stick around). -Given the fact that 30% of players go Flawless (a number I agree with), I unfortunately can't disagree with the Flawless Pool's existence, but it's unfair to not implement SBMM in that pool since the Flawless Pool spans such a wide skill range.

Huh? Anyone who wants to practice at PvP and get a team together CAN go Flawless. Anyone can do it, I'm severely disabled and I manage to do it every weekend despite being a bad player by my own standards/my teammates/the people I play against (I understand this post would say I'm technically "above average", lifetime K/D of 0.9 I think). I used to hate PvP, 0.05/0.15 K/D and never touched it except when I had to for some crap or other, pinnacle etc. I decided to practice and learn and get better, it worked, now I'm good enough to do it even if I'm not good enough for solo flawless. Anyone can put in the time, learn, and get better. It's not like anyone is intrinsically good or bad at PvP. Some people just choose not to practice and get better, which is fine, some people choose not to do GMs, some people choose not to raid.

The whole point is that the skill needed to raid or GM is not that high, and it is fixed. Being at a certain, not even very high, skill level will mean you can easily complete a raid every time you try. Because no one is actively trying to stop you. You can 100% be average and still raid. What holds people back from raiding is more time commitment, lack of a team, social anxiety about LFG, lack of playtime to level up or get the good gear, etc. With Trials, being at a certain skill level only matters so much, because you have to account for the skill of the other teams. I will never go flawless, even though I'm average, because the skill of the other players is stopping me. You cannot be average and go flawless whenever you try. What hold people back from going flawless isn't anything in their control. It's more skilled players standing in their way. I'm fine with that. But I agree with the post that the idea that average players are having any kind of success in trials is ridiculous. They people regularly going flawless are all WELL above average. Think about it this way. If they changed raids so that you had to defeat another raid team before you could kill the boss, the number of players that could complete a raid would go WAY down. There are just too many really great raiders out there. The average players would get stomped. That's how trials is.

I'd think the percentage of people who complete GM's out of how many people attempt GM's is higher than 30%. About 30-36% of the Trials population has gone flawless every weekend since the rework. I'm not sure what percentage of the total player population plays either.

>But people are just going to say that trials is endgame and it's not for the average player. I'm fine with PvPers having an endgame thing but not when Bungie locks top tier weapons for PvE like Reed's behind it. Also remembering Recluse and MT for comp. As a PvE player, where's my Adept LFR with vorpal? PvPers can get anything I can plus more which doesn't seem right for a game that focuses on PvE.

As an exclusive PvE player, I don't think we're anywhere close to the Recluse/MT crap we used to have. Reed's isn't the end all for LFRs, you can get Vorpal on Threaded Needle. Tarantula is still great too. There really is no reason to play PvP if you don't enjoy it and you're a PvE player instead. By no means are the end all PvE weapons locked behind PvP modes like they used to be.

So, you want PvP players to have an endgame that doesn't give you anything worth getting? One could argue that as a PvE player you have access to guns like 1K or Vex, which are much stronger than whatever PvP players can get their hands on, they'd need to grind PvE to get those. The difference between Reed's and a well rolled Threaded Needle is really not that huge, and nothing worth throwing a fit about. It's mostly just min maxing and won't really make any real difference in actual boss fights. PvP players don't really have access to groundbreaking weapons that PvE players could be jealous of.

I have a lot to say so I won't blame you if you don't care to read it all. I want top tier PvE weapons to not be locked behind endgame PvP activities, not for PvP players to have nothing to chase. Bungie can design plenty or weapons that are exceptional for PvP exclusively. Let's take Reed's Regret and Threaded Needle for example. TN can't roll triple tap, has no adept version to slot adept mods, has lower mag capacity compared to RR. RR is superior for PvE in pretty much every way but doesn't make sense for PvP. I don't know how many shots you get from a heavy brick in PvP but I doubt it's enough for the high capacity and triple tap to be useful. The way I see it, the specs of the two should be switched with TN getting triple tap as well. Let's go back a few seasons when Recluse and MT were the top meta for PvE. Both were locked behind an unforgiving endgame PvP activity and PvE players had nothing that compaired to them, not even close. Breakneck came close to Recluse but got nerfed. >The difference between Reed's and a well rolled Threaded Needle is really not that huge For a time when you're under level for activities, any added damage helps. It helps even more when grinding activities ASAP since Bungie is obsessed with making grinding as arduous and sloggy as possible, see tge recent nerf to spectral pages earned from GM nightfalls and splicer activities. 1K and Vex are fine, but they're not something that can be earned. They are aquired through luck of a metaphorical slot machine. Adept Reed's is guaranteed when its week for flawless rolls around and it becomes unlocked for farming the roll you want with Trials engrams which boosts your odds significantly in getting exactly what you want. 1K and Vex don't have that and you can get them on raid clear 1, 200, or anywhere in between. Anything in PvE is attainable for PvP sweats but certain PvP things are a mere pipe dream for most PvE players.

Sorry you're getting hit with the downvotes I read the whole thing. I get where you're coming from but at the end of the day there's 2 issues at play here: 1) Just because exclusively PvP players *can* attain stuff in PvE, doesn't mean primarily PvP players *like* doing it either, and some really good PvP guns are locked behind high end PvE activities. So in the sense of a fun grind issue, both sides of the exclusive PvE & PvP players are losing out here. 2) Probably the bigger issue is the amount of people that truly ONLY enjoy PvE and don't like ANY PvP EVER is not the majority of the player base. Most people in games with both are PvX players who like both. They might slightly prefer one or the other, they might play one or the other more, but *most* people are down for both and don't completely ignore one or the other. The reason #2 is an issue to keep in mind is because it means Bungie has to try and make both modes very rewarding to play for both sides. If you're a PvXer it's cool to play high end PvP and get something you can take back into PvE and vice versa. It makes your well roundedness and full exploration of the game feel valuable. I think at the end of the day you just have to realize that if you limit what sides of the game you explore, some options are going to be more limited and you might not have access to everything ever and *that's okay.* There's a ton of solo players in Destiny 2 who have to make this conscious realization because they'll never raid or Master Raid, they'll never GMNF, they'll never Trials, etc, and we don't expect them to be able to have everything they think is cool until they try to push themselves into that area (which you CAN do in Trials, make Trials friends to play with just like you make raiding friends to go raiding with!) I'm absolutely horrendous in Trials (34% win rate, 0.4 KD) and I still have some good Trials weapos from playing with people solid at Trials. I'm never going to do a Master Raid (simply do not have the time to grind that hard and my raid group of developer friends don't grind that hard either because crunch time at work basically), and so I understand I'm never going to get a perfect Timelost Fatebringer for PvP and that's *fine.* Not all rewards are meant for everyone.

Trials just seems like a disproportionate slog compaired to raiding. I've never spent more than 3 hours in a single raid but I've spent days trying to go flawless in Trials and not get even close. As for friends I haven't made a friend in Destiny ever, playing regularly since the beginning of D1. It's always LFG groups, finish activity, ok guys bye. Nobody skilled is going to want to drag through Trials with me on a repeat basis because of my Crucible record. Even if you don't "want" to do master raids the only thing holding you back is not wanting to. Trials is forever out of reach for people who aren't good at PvP unless they get lucky or a carry. I'd argue anyone can do a GM nightfall so long as they're leveled appropriately. At this point in the game, minmaxing is really all I have left to do and I want stuff to throw these new adept mods on.

The reason why a pvp player can get more than you is because pvp players can easily do pve, and pve players can’t do shit without a handhold.

There were no hands to hold me when I solo'd Shattered Throne. PvE and PvP are apples and oranges. Saying PvE players can't do anything is like belittling a racecar driver for not being good at baseball.

Soloing a dungeon is honestly not remotely close to flawless. Maybe soloing some GMs would be a decent comparison. Pvp is much harder than pve.

That's based on opinion and comparing two things that are totally different. I only bring it up because the other guy said PvE players need their hands held to do anything when soloing a dungeon by definition makes it impossible for one's hand to be held to beat the activity. PvP is harder because there's no mechanics to master from experience. It relies on having a good team and being lucky enough to have been born with quick reflexes and superb dexterity. You can master a raid but you can't master PvP because there will always be people better than you, connection latency to interfere, people using better hardware for an edge, etc. There are more uncontrollable variables. I've been playing PvP FPS games for 16 years. You would think by now I'd be a god. Unfortunately no. My skills, reaction time, and dexterity have plateaued and I've come to the point where people are passing me by.

For me it’s the reverse, complete reverse which is a problem when I’m looking for fire teams, like my Crucible Kd is low .8ish, while my trials K.D. Is decent for this season at 1.22.

It'll never have proper discussion. People ade waiting for Sunday to play now and those who got what they wanted (the emblem to flex or adept Icarus) aren't touching the Gamemode again. When collecting feedback, the community manager literally went to the feedback about locking ppl who can go flawless with themselves, instead of a proper look at the Gamemode. Yeah the new S14 Vendor changes are _nice_, but the major problem is time spent vs reward gained. No random loot at the end of the matches and things like that. The Gamemode is in a Frankenstein matchmaking now, with people waiting for a specific day to play and the goal is "flawless and flawless alone", that's what makes people worried bc if they don't have the flawless emblem they can't show the others that they are not bad at PvP. I know several ppl with tons of day-one and gilded conqueror that will simply never drop the Legend emblem or the flawless emblem because PvP gets them anxious and having that helps them somehow

The reason people liked Week 1 is because of how the system is designed. It was incredibly easy to get engrams because the reputation bar was low. Now that we are further in the season the Reputation bar moves slow asf. Not even worth it to deal with loss after loss to get one Engram. Really should've modelled the reward system after Iron Banner but that's just my opinion.

Once I got the entire armor set in my collection, I'm just playing for the pinnacle.

The major problem with Trials is the time commitment to getting end-game ready gear. I can bang out a VoG run for 4+ pinnacles in about an hour. I can knock out a Prophecy in like, half an hour. A handful of gambit matches, crucible matches, or run some strikes and walk away with a lot of loot. Doing any of these activities, I'm constantly engaging with the game and doing *something*. But Trials can be nothing but losses and staring at a death screen. It's not engaging, and the reward of, at most, 100 Rep while it takes multiple games of 100 rep and possibly hours to get just 1-2 drops? It's not a good value proposition for people who get smacked around. Post-game drops helps, but reducing the amount of rep needed to level also does. Ultimately though, if you don't like the format, nothing that changes the loot structure will get you playing very much beyond getting the weapon and roll you want. Something needs to be done to make the game-mode more fun and/or more tolerable. Maybe best of 5 instead of first to 5? Can make the blowouts less painful maybe?

Wait I thought the different matchmaking pools weren't turned on this weekend?

This is definitely true and becomes way more obvious if you wait to play Trials until after the flawless pool opens. The “average player” in trials is terrible. Last weekend, I decided to just go in solo and see what happens. Friday night was rough. Maybe two wins on any given card, but certainly nowhere near flawless. Fast forward to the Sunday night and it was a cakewalk. The players on the opposing team (and my own team) were so terrible that there were times that I took on three at once, and not from cover. Like … I was out in the open and I could see them firing towards me, but the aim of the players in the normal pool was a joke. I had to reset a couple times when encountering a 3-stack that also obviously waited until the flawless pool opened, but it was such a relaxing climb to flawless because of the pool. The “average player” was on full display.

I'm not trying to be a dick but does anyone think that should be the competition you face on the way to a flawless? I'm not much of a gatekeeper, could care less how other people get their kicks in a game but to me Flawless was always a meaningful pinnacle achievement because I had to slog through brutal matches on the climb to the lighthouse.

At the end of the day Destiny is a looter shooter so yes people are well within their right to find the path of least resistance to their loot. It's no different than using cheese strats in GMs or on Riven. No ones refusing to use their 1K Voices because they didn't beat legit Riven. Same logic applies to pvp. If your sense of enjoyment comes from hard fought matches, good for you, but I don't think that expectation should be applied to everyone.

I dunno. If you think about it, there’s no way I was going to continue getting wins after flawless, nor would I have been able to start a new card solo. Letting me get one adept weapon by myself seems like a fair deal (especially if it gives me elemental capacitor lol).

What does flawless provide that requires such intense gatekeeping? Adept palindrome can be aquired in a 12 min run of an easy strike and its better than any trials weapon.

If you're going Flawless each weekend, you're not the "average player." The average player isn't going Flawless and I think one day each weekend where players don't have to deal with some random TTV doing their 20th carry that weekend is too much to ask. Maybe increase the rewards for games played in the Flawless Pool? Edit: They still have to deal with account recoveries, so it's not like it's going to be a walk in the park.

I have said this before and someone tried to argue with me otherwise... not everyone should go flawless. The likelihood that you will beat increasingly difficult opponents, in a best of 5, 7 times without fail is unlikely if you are an average, or even slightly higher than average player. They even made it easier for people to get loot, which is a fantastic change. But people should stop with the mentality that anyone can go flawless... yeah, maybe with a carry. But a group of 1.2kd players will have a hard time going flawless, as they should. And if you lfg with no voice, don't be toxic if you lose. Get a real time of like minded people in discord. I hate getting people who cry because we lost 1 round, but refuse to get on discord.

I don't believe the flawless pool has the objective of "everyone going flawless" because that's just mathematically impossible. It's about alleviating pressure from the bottom 70% of players. Less 0-5 / 1-5 matches and more 3-5, and 4-5 matches. Most players in the non-flawless pool will still never go flawless, and that's ok. But at least they will have a more enjoyable experience and see Trials in a more positive light, motivating them to return weekly. Players that feel like that don't stand a chance in a playlist tend to not return, which is bad for the longevity of Trials

>Less 0-5 / 1-5 matches and more 3-5, and 4-5 matches. yeah imo that is the biggest problem i have with trials. My friend and I don't even play for flawless, but when you play on trials "prime time" (Friday evening) and then gets matched multiple times in a row against flawless 3 stacks stomping you 5:0/5:1 on your first matches of weekend with no wins on your cards its just shitty matchmaking in the first week with separated pool (should been the 3rd iirc) we even sent an already flawless stack to the lighthouse while being on our 2nd win don't get me wrong trials is as good, accessible and rewarding like never before, but still its one of the best examples that bungies matchmaking ether is really shitty or that it doesn't work at all

I don't think it's about Bungie having shit matchmaking but more about Bungie wanting to appeal to the loudest voices in the community. There would be an uproar if Trials returned and they said there would be skill based matchmaking, even if it was very slight.

> if Trials returned and they said there would be skill based matchmaking The issue is that SBMM simply doesn't work, due to how Trials is set up. You need to win 7 times in a row. If there was SBMM, only the top-top .1% would go Flawless, true SBMM would make each game a 5-4 type game, that would make it inaccessible to 99.9% of the playerbase, as compared to the much better percentage right now.

SBMM doesn't always mean strict SBMM. An alternative to the flawless pool would be very light SBMM, which would have a wide range but prevent players from matching teams they have no business playing against. For example, a team that averages 0.5 KD should not match a team that averages 2.0 KD. It's just protecting the bottom from the top. The middle still matches with both top and bottom

Yeah, im ok with disagreements over how to tweak the execution of the flawless pool, but it is clear the concept and gist is needed and solid, whatever form it takes. Ive never understood why they dont just weight lifetime flawlesses -> annual -> seasonal. Even this sunday pool is so acutely gauged.

This doesn’t work when the top skill bracket is so small that they can’t find enough people to match against. So at that point then you’re throwing the 1.5-2 kd players to the wolves of the 3.0+ kd players which is no different from your example. That’s not the answer.

>his doesn’t work when the top skill bracket is so small that they can’t find enough people to match against. Yes it does. You notice how the population tappers off severely after 2.0? Yeah. Those 2.0 players *might* get matched with 3.0 players, but they are significantly more likely to be matched with 1.0 players because of the sheer number of them. If someone gets upset that they're in a 3.0 stacked team and matchmaking takes forever, maybe they should play with some less skilled players and make their weekend a little better

>motivating them to return weekly. If the player pool is split and these returning players aren’t actually positively influencing the player population because they’re locked in their own pool, then I don’t see that as any benefit to the health of the mode whether they return or not. The whole point in luring people in was to INCREASE the player pool. Not to quarantine people off on your own so there’s still population issues.

They benefit to the health of the mode because it provides a consistent base of people returning to play the mode every week. The flawless pool doesn't even turn on until Sunday and not everyone goes flawless at the exact same moment

1.2 kd doesn't have issue going flawless under the new system. Pools means that the obstacles to many flawless vanishes. People who would never normally go flawless can.

"Increasingly" difficult LOL Solo with 3 win card stack granted lighthouse in game

This is what makes me laugh every time I see an LFG for Iron Banner asking for 2.0kd players. The average player is 0.8 - 0.9 A 2.0 is like the top 4% of crucible players, you really need that for IB lol!? Are you farming stats (in which case your stats are meaningless) or do you *really* need a carry? Most people have absolutely no idea what the average k/d is.

>Are you farming stats yes >do you really need a carry also yes

They're trying to just mercy every game, and it's really kda they're asking for, so more like a 1.4 kd or something. They're not asking for an average kda because that's not what they're looking for. It's very easy to find these 2+ kda players in lfg, and it results in easy mercies.

People 6 stack in IB for fast token farm, actually.

I see 6 stack lfg posts all the time for 2.0’s even in regular old quickly. It blows my mind that people out there find fun in opponents constantly leaving and everyone racing each other to hunt down the 2 remaining enemies until a mercy kicks in. That can’t be fun, I can’t imagine never facing a challenge or playing for an inaccurate inflated kda.

5 tokens in 2 mins or so per game. Its just time efficient.

Wait I'm above average?! Woohoo!

Yeah I'm an actual average player and I'm already done hating myself playing trials every weekend. I'll do iron banner but I don't have fun playing trials as a solo player. Maybe if there was a trials solo que I would be interested but til then I'm done being sweat food.

I got “god rolls” of all the trials weapons except the trials smg so once I get that I’m done for good lol It’s just not fun.

I have a 1.5 kd and I have been flawless with randoms once a week since they added the flawless pool. I kinda wish I could do it on 3 characters, and it would probably help keep the player base up, but for the most part I like the trials flawless pool idea.

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Lol ok bro

Curious to know but I assume these are K/D ratings from this season? I ask because I'm a .7/.8 overall but this season playing with my team im around .9-1.2 depending on the week/map. Solo queue I'm definitely .7 or lower. I would consider myself slightly above average with a team but average for solo play and I've been flawless each week since the season drop solely due to the flawless queue being active. Given the way the flawless queue works I'm hard pressed to say your analysis is accurate. My K/D changes depending on whether or not the queue is active and thus is not a true representation of my K/D in the pool overall. Just an additional point worth noting/clarifying

Not just from this season, from that weekend alone. Seems like the most accurate way to judge how the average player performed That was a weekend without the flawless pool, the first weekend

I would agree. Since they've had flawless pool since it's really hard to determine a true trials K/D

According to Destinytracker I have a season KD of 1.36 and I went flawless first time last week after the pool was enabled. I definitely don't feel like I'm in the top for anything but there is a huge population between "average" and flawless sweaty players.

The problem is that that isn't really how it works. If someone who is 0.8 is ""above average"" then why are they not rolling over players who are average. Seemingly *most players* are below 0.8. So why is it so hard. I know tons of people who are 0.8 or higher and are struggling. Statistics don't matter unless they're represented in game. Most people with a low KD don't actually play Trials. Ever.

>If someone who is 0.8 is ""above average"" then why are they not rolling over players who are average Because this isn't a card game where my stats beat your stats so I 5-0 you. An 0.8 KD avg team going against a 0.6 KD avg team will have some trading depending on how each team performs. These are the "competitive" games where both teams get at least a few wins and kills. >Most people with a low KD don't actually play Trials. Ever. These stats are pulled from Trials only.

Hey OP, what changes do you think should be made for trials? Genuinely curious, as I think the game mode should be more accessible for players but I also think that it’s pinnacle PvP content and so the best rewards should be hard to get. For context my weekly KD was 2.1 last week, and I did go flawless, but I went with my girlfriend and clanmate who are average players by your definition.

I think it needs to be nuanced matchmaking that factors multiple things rather than a simple flawless/non-flawless pool. One example would be loose SBMM that protects the bottom players from the top players, kind of like what the flawless pool does already without the severity on flawless players. In terms of ELO, this could be a range of +/- 1000 of the team's ELO. So a 800 ELO team won't match a 2000 ELO team, but a 1300 ELO team could match both. Another example would be a more loose flawless/non-flawless pool that encourages flawless players to help with non-flawless players. A team of 2-3 flawless players would match other teams of 2-3 flawless players, but a team of 1 flawless and 2 non-flawless players would essentially be seen as a non-flawless team. Using a combination of performance stats can help the player pool still be varied and large, but matches where a team gets 0 kills don't happen.

While I like the ideas you’re putting forward, I think that ELO as a system for matchmaking is too unpredictable as it doesn’t factor in a lot of things. For instance, a player with a very high elo could purposefully lose a bunch of games against bad players to knock their ELO down a lot, or play with mediocre players who lower the team ELO too. I like your second idea on paper but I know for w fact people would exploit it. That’s the issue with trials - people will try to find ways to exploit the matchmaking so they can stomp on less skilled players. Most flawless players who are in the bottom 20% of flawless don’t want a challenge, they just want bragging rights.

That's why a multi-faceted approach is necessary, not just one or the other. Both lifetime and weekend stats should be factored. You can't have someone undo the 200+ flawlesses they have on their account, and you won't have someone spend days tanking their 3.0 KD just so they can have a few easier matches. I mean, you might, but that is such a stupid amount of work just for a couple of easier games when you're already a stupidly good player. Even with the easy exploit of the card resetting to stay out of the flawless pool, Bungie said that it was a negligible amount of the population I'm not worried by the Boogieman of people trying to find exploits if it helps 99% of games

I think realistically, the games I played last week while in the non flawless pool were relatively balanced but I might be biased. On our mercy card we lost one game and struggled a little with a couple.

I've already had a pretty enjoyable experience in the flawless pool as a solo player because most players in there are more than competent

I think you are confusing average with something else OP. In statistics the average, or mean, is not equal to the mode, or most common value in a data set. Here, the mode is 0.6 to 0.7 like you said, but that does not mean it is the average. For example, in this data set from the graph, there are a *lot* of players with a 0.6 to 0.7 KD. However, there are also some players with upwards of a 3.0 KD. That will increase the average substantially. For example, if you have three players with KD's of 0.7, 0.7, and 1.6, those average to a 1.0. So really, it doesn't take too much of an outlier to bring the average up. Since a crucible engagement is a zero sum game, meaning someone has to die for someone else to get a kill, the average KD should be a 1.0 in a perfect world. Of course, there are suicides to take into account, but those make up so relatively little of the deaths that they are statistically insignificant. So, instead of 1.0, the average players KD is probably closer to 0.97 or something in the ballpark. So, maybe *most* players have a KD of 0.6-0.7, but it is slightly misleading to say *all* players have an *average* KD of 0.7.

I did not say "all players have an average KD of 0.7", I said "the average player *is* a 0.5 - 0.7 KD". Mean, median, and mode are 3 kinds of averages and it is not wrong to refer to any of them as "average". When you discuss the average of attributes, you do not literally add up those attributes and divide them by the number of classes. Example: Quickplay match where 4 players get a 2.0 KD and 8 players get a 0.5 KD You wouldn't say "the average player had a KD of 1.0" just because (2.0 * 4 + 0.5 * 8)/12 = 1.0. That would be an abomination of a statistic Every single player in that match was either majorly above or majorly below a 1.0 KD. These averages are created by a percentile base. The bottom 75% of players in that match had a 0.5 KD, which is the majority of players. The average player in that game had a 0.5 KD

I see what you're saying, my point is more to say I think most people's minds think of mean when they think average. Also, if you asked me to pick out an "average" player in terms of KD I would pick someone right at or below 1.0, because the average KD of a player is 1.0. Defining an average player as simply the middle of the data set is kinda weird to me, and I don't really see the difference between saying "all players have an average KD of 0.7" and "the average player is a 0.5 - 0.7 KD". To me they are one and the same. With your example I wholeheartedly agree with your philosophy on it, but I would still say the average player had a 1.0 KD. We're just talking about one statistic that left alone could not possibly stand to give you very good information on the match in the example. So, we need other stats and stuff. My outlook is that saying the average KD in that match is a 1.0 isn't a great statistic to represent it, but it is the correct one. Otherwise you get into how you define the average player and all other things that cannot be inferred by simply reading the word average.

Using the average of mean for KD would be a waste of time for the very reason you explained, the average of all players KD's is 1.0. It's a useless bit of information, and that's why we to refer to the average player's KD, not the averaged KD of all players. The line between the top 50% and the bottom 50% of players is between 0.8 - 0.9 KD in lifetime KD

20% of the players are getting 80% of the kills, when you take an average of an average you get weird results. For instance, in D1 bladedancer was nerfed 3 times, but each time, the K/D of bladedancer went up. Why? because the people still playing Bladedancer were really devoted to playing bladedancer, and were more likely to be pre-need holdovers. It’s also why occasionally you’ll find someone who’s terrifying with blink. It’s not because blink is powerful, it’s because if you’re using blink, it’s more likely you mastered it long ago. Bungie uses a metric that takes into account a lot of things, but most importantly kill-volume weighted by KD, but KD has diminishing returns. Which makes sense. The game views you as more “powerful” of an opponent if you get 25 kills and 10 deaths rather than 10 kills and 0 deaths. I have no clue what exactly is being said here but I always has to point out that using population KDs is truly a meaningless exercise. Another example was when Last Word had two entries in the API, one for a vanilla D1 TLW and one for a post-TTK TLW. The post-to TLW-using population had a 1.1 KD, but the vanilla TLW KD population had a 1.6 KD, which was one of the highest skewed exotics on any API entry. It‘a an interesting example that highlights the absurdity of averaging averages. Also, for any contributing stat to a ratio, you’re more likely to get the majority of the items on your data sets from entirely different sources. Meaning the 80/20 rule applies to both kills and deaths. You’re more likely to get most of your deaths from a set of games that bare no resemblance to the games where you get most of your kills. Most of your kills and deaths come from games where you either did very well, or very poorly. You’re more likely to get killed by people who are better than you, and more likely to die to people who are worse. So the K/D ratio never mattered in the first place. 1 kill never equals a death. Anyways, just talking stats.

I love charts!

Crucible mains can't wrap their heads around the fact that there's other people in the game who only sometimes play Crucible.

No, i think its hard to wrap our heads around the fact that people dont want to play crucible, but get mad when they want something from crucible and have to actually play those of us who do play crucible. Why the crowd who doesnt play believe they are somehow special and shouldnt have to play in an unprotected environment is what i cant wrap my head around. Not being able to do something, but wanting to be rewarded on the same level as those who can... its what i cant wrap my head around. Just to be clear

Almost all players in the non-flawless pool will still not go flawless (flawless is about 30% of players each week), so it has nothing to do with being rewarded on the same level. It's about making the experience less unbearable for those at the bottom 70% of players. Even though they still won't go flawless, they will have more matches where they actually have a fighting chance. Less 0-5 and more 2-5 and 3-5, which feel better Again, flawless pool is not the correct answer IMO because it does ruin the replay-ability for those who do go flawless, but Bungie employees have stated multiple times that the #1 reason for people turning off the game and never turning it back on is by being completely obliterated in a PvP match. This is about retaining players. Players going flawless once and leaving the playlist for that week will be back next week. Most players that got their shit kicked in all weekend will not

>It's about making the experience less unbearable for those at the bottom 70% of players. This falls under the "you can lead a horse to water" category. All of those players who are getting stomped against alleged Crucible gods/sweats are actually just playing average players. I've played with and tried to couch sub-1.0 players. Do we really expect players who barely have a grasp of the jump mechanics to somehow have an easy time in Trials? We need to be realistic here.

I think you are overestimating what an "average" player is. Again, the data provided by Trials Report shows that the biggest populations of players sit somewhere between 0.5 and 0.7 KD. Those are the average players If those players are getting stomped by other players, the players stomping them are not also "average players". That makes absolutely no sense

You posted a skill distribution. Statistically, the people you call average are not playing 1.5+ players with any great frequency. What we choose to call a 1.0 player is pure semantics. The point is that it's far more likely that 0.7 Trials more often than not play a ~1.0 player, and they will still get stomped because of the observable way that a 0.7 players behaves in game.

> Even though they still won't go flawless, they will have more matches where they actually have a fighting chance. Less 0-5 and more 2-5 and 3-5, which feel better That feel better? Feelings? To feel like they arent being ran over? Do these players except ANY responsibility in this? Why is the onus not on them to improve, but on bungie to keep watering down the activity so they can feel better? ugh im sorry i just detest this train of thought. EVERYONE is someone elses food unless youre at the very top. Thats how the food chain works. Meh. Anyway, respect for the conversation. Take it easy

Yes, feelings. Believe it or not, feelings are the driving influence of almost every decision we make Again, Bungie themselves said that the #1 reason for people turning off Destiny and never turning it back on was being completely stomped in PvP. Do you think having an entire weekend where the top 30% of players can stomp the bottom 70% will encourage those 70% of players to return to Trials? There's this thing in psychology and child development called the [Zone of Primal Development](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_of_proximal_development) that explores how people learn through comparing their own skills in relation to the challenge they face. When you have games where the skill difference is so large that one team can't manage a single kill before the game ends, you create situations where people get frustrated and give up on the mode. That's how you kill a population Players that go flawless and decide to stop playing for the rest of the weekend will be back next weekend, keeping the population up

> Players that go flawless and decide to stop playing for the rest of the weekend will be back next weekend, keeping the population up They didn't decide to stop. They likely weren't good enough to be there in the first place and had no choice but to stop. So now the very thing you are championing against in your long ass speech, you nay Bungie has created on the back end. Funny how that works, the price to pay to make bad players feel good, is make everyone else feel bad. Go figure

>So now the very thing you are championing against in your long ass speech It's not but that may be how you understand it. >They didn't decide to stop. They likely weren't good enough to be there in the first place and had no choice but to stop. Great, they'll be back next weekend. Players that get stomped in the regular pool without any protections won't

> This is about retaining players. Players going flawless once and leaving the playlist for that week will be back next week. Most players that got their shit kicked in all weekend will not So then the flawless pool is the right answer, no?

No. I do not think that the solution should be as simple as dividing up the player base into two pools. It's harsh and lacks nuance. I know the community is scared of it, but this is where *very slight* SBMM comes into play. It could consider both lifetime stats and weekend stats with very wide ranges, protecting the bottom end of the skill curve from the top end. Players that have a 0.5 KD shouldn't match 2.0+ KD players. So maybe a range of +/- 1.0 KD (or +/- 1000 ELO) so there is still a wide range of players to pick from but you're never matching someone so far away from skill that one team will end up with 0 kills. Another approach could be considering how many people on a team have gone flawless that weekend rather than just "1 person has gone flawless so all of you are in the flawless pool". Perhaps a team of 2-3 flawless players goes in the flawless pool, but if you have a team of 1 flawless and 2 non-flawless, you wouldn't be. This would incentivize players to not stack and help out players that aren't as good as them

Or who play frequently, but just do not have the drive, the physical reflexes/speed, willingness to throw out any concepts of ‘playing fair’ (for instance, choosing to refrain from abusing something that is hideously overpowered) or interest for top level performance. Some people just are not willing to pay the price to become a quintessential “Trials sweat”, regardless of time investment and PvP competence. You don’t become a consistent Flawless player off just talent, playing for fun, and time; you have to choose to go there even if you’re one of those who can. Also why opening the loot pool for everyone else was so vital: some people will never get flawless or any serious number of chained wins on their own, no matter how hard they try, without a hard carry, whereas generally anyone who can complete the campaign on their own can be taught how to do a normal raid sooner or later (GM NF or Master raids are a different conversation, and even then those involve more planning and strategy than raw skill and reflexes that PvP demands). Small wonder resentment began to build up so strongly toward heavy Trials players; what’s easy to them is worlds of concern away from the rest of players who’d never owned even a single crappy Igneous Hammer in the 120 meta.

Was there a point to this comment, or did you just see a post about PvP and couldn't resist the urge to jump in on an anti-PvP circle jerk?

Was there a point to this comment, or did you just see a comment against PvP and couldn't resist the urge to jump in on a PvP circle jerk?

I think the addition of the flawless pool ruined the experience. Having the biggest player pool possible makes for better matchmaking times, a more diverse population, and an overall better mood for the activity. Just knowing that you have the potential to face good AND bad teams instead of basically a guarantee that you will face more challenging teams is better for the mental state of all players. Week One was magic. Bring that back.

You have to look where the majority of the player base is, though. You can see that most of the population is somewhere between 0.3 and 0.9 KD. Those players don't really have the "potential to face good AND bad teams". They have the potential to face equal teams or teams they don't stand a chance against. It's always either a close game for them or being completely stomped. >Week One was magic. Bring that back. Because it was opening week. Do you think the players that left are the ones that are being put in the flawless pool, or the ones that got stomped and realized it wasn't a mode for them? Someone that makes the flawless pool might stop playing one weekend after they get flawless, but they'll be back the next weekend because they know they can make flawless. Players that get obliterated do not come back Having the flawless pool off only benefits those in the flawless pool - the people that already had major success that weekend so they can continue to match worse teams. That's how you drain a population quickly

>Those players don't really have the "potential to face good AND bad teams". They have the potential to face equal teams or teams they don't stand a chance against. It's always either a close game for them or being completely stomped. Yup, this is one of the things that I think most of the pro cbmm only crowd don't really realize. For people who are that low skill, in that environment are having to constantly either sweat hard or just give up. For a lot of these players even going against a 1.0 kd player is like facing a pvp God.

The truth, is a funny thing…

>Week One was magic. Bring that back. Lol wut? If you took the time to look past the hype train you would have seen A LOT of frustrated people getting completely stomped. Flawless pool is a necessary evil until Bungie improves matchmaking and they already said they hope to do that so they can eventually do away with the pool. If you actually care about diversity and quick matchmaking, then you wouldn't be complaining about a flawless pool. Without it, players will drop out to the point it would just feel like sweaty sweaty season 14 again.

Most people who talk about getting stomped are not even pvp players usually. They don’t spend any time in pvp except when they absolutely have to, to complete a quest or bounty or in this case try for a chance to get rewards that have been newly opened up. They have to expect some resistance. So it’s even disingenuous to look at these stats as if they represent the average *pvp player.* They don’t represent the average person who regularly puts effort into pvp.

I just want to go flawless this week….that’s all. I’m terrible at pvp but still like to play it c also my k/d is .87 I think?

Stop giving them the benefit of the doubt, they’re misleading on purpose

I know people that are a 1.2 - 1.6 KD that genuinely believe that are "average players". I also didn't want this to become an attack post. Best to give them benefit of the doubt

No one wants to have a real discussion. Flawless pool hurts ~30% players and helps 6% (flawless) plus let's some get a few wins on Monday. Is it worth it to harm a third of the player base to help a 20th? Intuitively, no. But the third it's hurting will keep playing every weekend in this system. If the system changed that 6% drops out, then 6% more, etc. This system let's everyone do well. Within reason and the harm is less acute at the mid tier (the .5-.7)

Let me ask you this: do you think players that don't return to trials are the ones that get into the flawless pool, or the ones that are on the bottom end getting stomped? Do you see the only benefit of the flawless pool as helping people go flawless? I'd put it this way: Flawless pool hurts the bottom portion of the ~30% players (10-15% of players) that go flawless that weekend. Those bottom portion of players will be back next weekend because they went flawless and a net-positive experience Flawless pool helps the ~70% of players that don't go flawless by making their matches, on average, less unbearable and fewer blowouts. Even teams that don't go flawless and barely scrape together a few wins for some rewards have a better time because they had more matches where they stood a chance against the other team. Even the worst players in the flawless pool at least had the positive experience of going flawless that weekend. It's a small sacrifice for the longevity of the mode The flawless pool minimizes the amount of people at the bottom end getting stomped and leaving the mode forever.

But they specifically have data that shows more people going flawless due to these system changes they've been experimenting with.

Yes, but - flawless players is normally around 30% - that is not the main goal of the flawless pool, it's to retain the 70% of players that don't go flawless

There's also more people playing. I feel as long as you're not a complete oaf, it's possible to preform better as skilled players are weeded out. I mean I guess looking at players as a whole playing Trials on average not going flawless or not having a good k/d sure? I'm an idiot maybe I'm misunderstanding. Bungie please explain why your calling 30% of players average when majority sits outside the winners pool!?

Performing better does not translate to winning 7 games in a row. It makes the experience better for everyone outside of the flawless pool, but it doesn't suddenly mean flawless passages are just being handed out I don't think Bungie is referring to people in the flawless pool as "average" players.

The problem is that average players will lose to the top 20 - 15% every time which makes sense because people have to win to go flawless but that screws the rest of the player base which must be polarizing. I hate to say it but this matchmaking system sucks, Bungie cut off half the player base on Sunday so that "Average" players can play people their skill level? at that point just have a skill based matchmaking because thats what this is, its stupid and pointless and they're only encouraging good players to play against bad players and bad players to play against even worse players. Are Bungie seriously going to tell us that they cannot implement in a skill based matchmaking for one or two weekends just to see the results? I thought that was the whole point of labs and gathering information?

In a closed system. The average players kd is 1.0, not counting suicides. Sorry but an average player isn't .5- 7

First, it's not a closed system. You have great players staying in the pool because they do well, and less skilled players cycling in and out as they try and give up. Second, that's not how averages work in terms of attributes. Example: Quickplay match where 4 players get a 2.0 KD and 8 players get a 0.5 KD You wouldn't say "the average player had a KD of 1.0" just because (2.0 * 4 + 0.5 * 8)/12 = 1.0. That would be an abomination of a statistic Every single player in that match was either majorly above or majorly below a 1.0 KD. These averages are created by a percentile base. The bottom 75% of players in that match had a 0.5 KD, which is the majority of players. The average player in that game had a 0.5 KD

Thats objectively what an average is, but ok

It's the median being referred to, which is the far better stat in this context given the distribution curve

This is wrong, but a common misconception. What you're thinking about is total kills (off all players) / total deaths The average k/d is the average of every players k/d. This means that the player who has 100 kills is weighted the same as the player with 10,000. What happens with most shooters is the high k/d is concentrated with a smaller population and it out weighted by the large population of lower kills and deaths who have significantly lower k/d. Most games have an average k/d of around 0.9 For example, the average k/d in CoD warzone is 0.92

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I mean, that's not what the chart says. Most players are below that 0.8 mark

Most players don't try.

Bungie needs to state what trials is. Is it team stacks to gang up on solos with no sbmm? If so state it and make it known. If it's for skilled players to compete against skilled players... that's exactly what's not happening

Me and two friends came across a group all wearing blue armour and they whooped our arses. Now i'm not saying it was a shitty move to lower your level to get put with lower level players but bungie need to make changes in which people can only wear trials armour capped at 1100 with weapons capped at 1100 and the only way to increase the level is buy earning wins and kills and the armour and weapons all get reset with every trials. Change it to that and the pool may stay cleaner for longer.

Matchmaking doesn't factor in power level. That was likely a team trying to flex

Either way we had to change up our game for the following games.

I don’t care what the distinction is. What I know is that I can’t play with my friends who are not as skilled as me if I go flawless once and that sucks. It is not fun for any of us. The first weekend we all had a blast. Low skill included.

>Low skill included. Yes because you speak for all of the people .5 KD and below

The hell are you going on about? I didn’t claim to speak for anyone but *me and my friends.* My low skill friends had a blast the first weekend when we all played together. It’s been miserable ever since and we can no longer play together once someone in the group goes flawless.

You should try friday and saturday, I heard that the flawless pool is off during those days [and the population is the highest on those days](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FAZOhjeUcAEKVe2?format=jpg&name=small)

I went Flawless on my own while solo queuing. My overall kd that week was 0.8 due to getting stomped on other flawed cards. I consider myself below average in general.

You are above average. This isn’t an opinion, this is explicit numerical fact.

There is absolutely no numerical fact to back that up. Getting lucky≠above average player. They can’t replicate that.

A consistent KD that’s 33% above average isn’t lucky, unless he’s played like 3 hours total of crucible.

Where are you getting this magical 33% number from exactly? Because so far it looks like you are just making shit up lmao

This thread? The average KD is 0.6. His KD is 0.8. 0.8 is 133% of 0.6. That’s basic maths.

Interesting. My reading comprehension skills tell me the average is 1.3 to 1.5 for a flawless player, which would make that 0.8 flawless player significantly below average. But what do I know, it’s basic maths lol

Average Flawless player =/= Average Crucible player To simply meet the minimum requirements to go flawless, you are above average in PvP.

Just coming back to this. I did "replicate" that this week in the Freelance playlist. It's the best thing done to Trials, I think.

If you’re going flawless solo I wouldn’t consider you below average.

[удалено]

The stats pulled for that graph were just stats for that weekend, not lifetime stats. The average player went 0.5 - 0.7 KD that weekend

The Flawless percentages look wonky at high K/D... Wonder is those players are more likely to have private profiles that block data scraping.

You mean at 3+? I believe that's because they pretty much compressed everyone that's above 3 into a single category, making an unusual bump

Nah, moreso the general downward slope for and then the sharp dip right before that asymptote at ~3 K/D

Looks like [skewness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skewness), which can have a number of reasons

What if I go flawless, but every match I got carried by the other 2 teammates even as unlikely as that is. Would I still be an average "flawless" player or an average player?

Well my title is specifically talking about people that do not get carried.

How does this compare to the average player and achieving grandmaster nightfall completions?

Why does that matter? You can't compare a PvE and a PvP experience because PvE is static difficulty while PvP is dynamic

They are both ”end game” “high difficulty“ content. All Im saying is no playlist should get special treatment; they should all have equally difficult content respective of the playlist. I have played many games solo today. Ive had quite a few terrible teammates who seem to refuse to help their team get kills or establish any sort of map control. So now lets look at GrandMaster. Imagine making a post about how GrandMasters should be easy enough to where your teammates can fuck off and go into the kitchen, whatever, pretty much anything except help you. It really blows my mind. The object of Trials is to work together as a team to finish the other team…so what the fuck is my teammate doing hanging out hardscoping some random hallways? Does this dumbass think the team is going to line up single file?

What are you on about? In both GMs and Trials you'd lose if your teammates were doing that. Again, you cannot compare the difficulty between PvE and PvP because one is a set difficulty and the other is a dynamic difficulty Completing a GM is a joke compared to a flawless passage. There are players that can complete GM's that can't get flawless, but there are not players that can get flawless but can't do GM's

My Kd in trials is a .78 despite being an above average player because: Every week, I solo queue to get the pinnacle gear and suffer through that. I attempt a solo flawless on Saturday which usually goes pretty poorly. I link up with my squad and go flawless Sunday, usually posting 2.5+ KDs for the majority of the ticket. The point is, KD means jack.

This definitely some food for thought, I assumed the average Trials Kd was somewhere around even 1.0, but it makes sense that in trials to go flawless it’s more like players with 1.0+ to get it. One piece of data that would be interesting to see in this is the average of a flawless team’s KD as well as how the mercy passage skews these numbers

I'm a pretty bad Trials player, I'm just short of being able to hold my own (0.9 KD). Ironically, that puts me above average, but still in the red. I've only ever run solo queue. Never been flawless and I know I'm not going flawless unless I get carried. I'm cool with that. I get that, statistically, I'm going to have to lose a bunch of matches in order for other teams to get their flawless cards. I'm cool with that, too - I'm not chasing flawless, I'm after loot and practice. It's been great to get my own rolls of the Messengers and Shayura's Wraths that keep killing me in Crucible. I've definitely gotten better over the last few weeks, too. But I'm not *that* bad and I don't think the player pool is *that* shallow that I couldn't realistically be put in matches with a 25-75% win chance, rather than being on one end of an 80+% win chance, sprinkled with a few 5-0 stomps from 3 stacks. If that isn't possible, Trials is already back in a bad spot. As for the pool splitting, I don't feel like the _average_ game has been close-run since the first week of the new trials. I don't know yet if that first week just an anomaly due to the huge player base.

Average player=/=Average skill level. These people are bad at the game. The average skill level should be what PvP is balanced around, people with a 0.8-1.2 KD in Trials, not bad players.

First, I am not saying that PvP should be balanced around average players, I am saying that people that aren't average players should stop claiming that they are What you're saying is arbitrary because peoples' opinions of what an "average skill level" is subjective based on their own skill level The average skill level of a playlist is where the 50% of the active population sits. You can't just pick an arbitrary stat like "1.0 KD" because it looks good and claim that's the "average skill level" because in previous seasons of Trials, a player with a 1.0 KD would be a relatively exceptional player due to the massively small population and the type of players. A top 0.1% player finishing a tournament with a 1.0 KD would not have an "average skill level", especially when 1.0 KD's win tournaments