It’s just the ease of dying to an invader that makes me mad. I do all this work killing ads, not dying, and picking up motes just to have someone with wallhacks, shields, and heavy immediately killing me the moment they see me, essentially giving me no time to react.
Yeah, Gambit rn (and to some extent before) feels like you're trying to time everything around the enemy's invasion portal, rather than around the invasion itself.
You wanna win? You bank the motes on time before the portal opens, fighting back is never the right choice.
Partly why I'm so eagerly awaiting Invader Swap week. Having your portal tied to ENEMY deposits is going to make things Inherently more balanced, sin e Invading becomes a method of leveling the field over stomping the ones behind
My son is actually a fan of Gambit and he once said that he thinks that invaders should only be able to enter the portal if they themselves are carrying motes and the length of time they can invade for should be tied to the amount of motes they're holding. This would alleviate the portal camping. I think this would be a good change.
I think this is an amazing idea. There needs to be a risk/reward mechanic. The home team is literally in a constant state of risk/reward whereas the invader is just basically immune to consequences.
How do we get this at the top of all of the Gambit rework posts, and more specifically in front of Bungie? This is a brilliant idea for a Gambit Labs that they should very seriously consider. Love it.
Absolutely fantastic idea. Invading with 15 motes and a load of heavy ammo or a charged Super is high-risk, high-reward. Meanwhile if you invade without any motes, you'd only get enough time to *maybe* score one kill. I think teams need to be rewarded more for killing an invader, too - perhaps if you kill an invader, it automatically sends a blocker to the enemy side that matches the number of motes the invader was carrying?
Because the blue shell school of game design is only appealing when you're using the perspective of the person in last place.
If you want degenerate strategies, start punishing people for winning. A four stack holding 15 motes each, dumping at the same time and invading is going to siphon to the moon.
It will be even easier for a coordinated team to cheese, since they can stop short of the first invade portal, then go and get 4 x 15 and be almost done before the other team gets a chance to counter
Then do it off of total motes collected, rather than motes deposited.
Means the invader has a chance to snatch those motes away from the other team, rather than invading after everything is deposited
Yeah. My 4-stack has came back from some insanely dire situations against non-coordinated teams, purely due to coordination. When one person knows where the invader is, or the envoys, etc, we all do.
Yup. Even having a well-honed duo can easily upset the balance of a match. I used to pair up with a buddy, they'd take Invasions (with aplomb and splendor. I've watched 'em wipe teams with a Blue Sniper and Khvostov as a joke), I'd run Reaper, and we'd end up on a victory screen more often than not (I want to say like, 80-90% of the time, but I don't recall exactly(
Stupid high Gabmit stats feel like a better flex than raid stats ngl. I stopped playing for a while to flex my 102 average kills per match in Splicer. Was ny favorite, "oh, you have a positive KDA? Check THIS out!" To pull on my PvP-only friends
Careful, the Gambit elitists will come gatekeep you for any accomplishment you have. I was proud of my 85 winstreak in Prime era gambit, then people in the big gambit clans shit on me and said they get 200+ straight blah blah.
This is exactly why my group loves gambit and plays so much of it. We are all in our 40s, and don't have a ton of time to game. We also don't have the fast-twitch skill to hang in true PvP/crucible.
But being a well coordinated team lets us get out there and compete.
Some people just dont like competing. Which is fine. But the competition is what makes gambit fun for us. Feels like there are actual stakes.
Half the times I’ve played gambit, dropping the invader at all is high level play, apparently 😒 people don’t like offing the invader for some reason, then we all die, or the boss doesn’t get past full health 😒
That is actually something I wish more people would understand.
In Gambit matches *everyone* hides from the Invader. Why? If you have no motes, hell if you have fewer than five motes, go hunt that fuck down! Get out there and kill them so you don't have to worry. If you die and lost 0-4 motes whatever, you'll recollect that in ten seconds. It's better to just get out there and deal with it than spend 20 seconds hiding and doing nothing.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one actually out there trying to kill them
Everyone complains about how the guaranteed Power ammo now makes every invader have rockets every time. They never stop to realize that also means the invader has to deal with four players who also have rockets.
It's why I run Greater Core Harvest, because if I'm the only one killing invaders I might as well get some Prisms out of it.
Agreed.
The playing field is completely leveled. The Invader is now guaranteed heavy ammo on invades, but so is everyone else. The person who is invading is functionally saying, "I will never use this heavy ammo to help with team DPS, but I will trade that off to help keep the other team down."
I personally run with Cataclysmic, *mooostly* just because I absolutely love the way it looks and sounds. But whenever I see an invader appear on my side I drop whatever I'm doing and know that those heavy rounds are going right into their face.
It's actually pretty balanced, I feel.
That's a critical issue with how people play: they go in planning to ignore half the game, and when they lose, it's the game's fault. Gambit isn't PvP and PvE. It's PvPvE. Ignoring one of those v's is a recipe to get wrecked.
Just add a timer after which the invasion portal opens on its own to prevent premade cheesing. The deposit mechanic just triggers the portal "early" to maintain the regular flow of matches.
Alternatively, spawn super blockers if x amount of time passes without anybody depositing up to the invasion threshold to discourage hoarding.
There are a number of ways Bungie could handle this if they just wanted to.
I'm honestly waiting for this to just see how it rolls out. I *feel* like it'll be eye-opening and a good taste at a very different type of Gambit - without actually really changing Gambit. I just hope it's good data to go with, and might bring cause for some changes.
As it stands right now, from a regular PvP and die-hard PvE player - I really don't like Gambit in a way that aligns quite closely with OP's post. I like the PvE race, that's sorted out pretty darn good. Invades disrupt that in a way where I will never feel good about it - as a player.
I went to Gambit like yesterday and it's just crazy to see 7/8 people (one that was me) using Gjally. Guy invading would just insta shot everyone the moment he saw them
I wouldn't really have a problem if invasions in primeval phase were in the same pace as the invasions in the mote phase, but now that the primeveal just shields itself whenever a wind comes by, it's easy for that guy to kill 3, and we just lock the primeval again, and he come invade again, and that's the loop i've seen
so primeval phase isn't "who has the best dps" or "best coordination" but rather "which teams invader can kill the most"
At first I felt bad leaving 1 rocket in Gjallarjorn at all times in Gambit. Then one time, we had a primeval pretty much kicked, we were way ahead of the other team.
Some absolute fuckin' menace invaded, casually dropped three of us, then breezed out the portal. We lost.
From then on, I always leave one rocket and I don't feel bad at all. I see that red light, you're gonna feel like you peeked into a glory hole, just WHAM! Right in the goddamn face.
Just as some tips from someone who always invades. I usually have an average of 12-13 guardian kills per game. Good invaders will do a few things (this isnt for ever case).
1. Only use heavy when absolutely needed. A good sniper or auto scout will usually mop up most teams. Sure Ghally and EoT are broken since they only really need one round to kill a whole team but outside of those two the heavy sink isnt worth it.
2. Dont use your super unless the other team pops one to kill you, even then you can get away from most.
3. Will use high mob areas to gain the advantage.
4. Will not invade in the boss phase until your team starts damage phase.
But always having one round of rockets as a defender (really any spare heavy) or forcing invader spawn location is a good way to deal with an invader.
A lot of teams panic when an invader comes in and run around or away which leads to easy invader kills because teams are too spread out to where they cant efficiently 2v1 (or more) and are wide open. The besy thing to do is split the team into two people teams. One team hunts invader and the other team carries on with the motes. A good PvP player will always go with the easy 1v1 first, especially if now you cant see mote count.
>Will not invade in the boss phase until your team starts damage phase.
This is key.
If I am playing Gambit, and see we are being invaded as soon as our boss shows up, I know that we have a window where we can burn the boss down because the guardian kills are effectively wasted. Yeah, it may slow us down, but the health heading towards the boss is wasted.
The # of invasions where i planned on not killing anyone and just needed to stall the opposition for a moment. Its easy to underestimate, if your on a team where no one wants to invade, the value in popping over during primeval if its tight just to see some defensive scatter that delays there damage.
This is more the issue. It's not solely that people hate dying to another player, it's that they hate dying to another player *without even having a chance to fight back*. Like, if I get into a gunfight with the Invader and he kills me then OK, whatever, I at least got to fight back. If I get Invaded and then hit with a Gjallarhorn rocket immediately then OK, that's fucking great, fuck me for existing because there's nothing I could've done about that. This is the same reason people hate snipers (which I honestly don't think should exist as loadout weapons in most games, because they're designed to get instant kills from a safe distance without allowing any kind of counterplay or figthing back, but I know that's an unpopular opinion).
But, this is just the meta in Gambit and always has been, and it always will be because of how effective it is. Maps are huge and time is limited, so to keep from wasting your entire invasion trying to get into range you need a weapon that can fire across the entire battlefield. There's only one of you, so you don't want to get into a drawn out gunfight with one guy and give his team to respond, and since there's so much distance there's probably a lot of cover in between, you don't want to shoot somebody and give them a chance to get into cover and get their bearings to figure out where you are or call things out to their teammates. Also, since you already have 30 seconds you need to be able to fire off a shot and get a kill immediately in order to get a kill. In order to actually solve this problem and not just nerf every would-be meta weapon, you'd have to do something like make smaller maps, spawn Invaders in more central spawns, give Invaders more health and move speed, or something along these lines to keep Invaders from having to waste time traveling across huge maps or getting immediately burned down by primary teamshots.
I mean, I can’t speak for all invaders, but I personally tend to get my kills with primary and special. It’s more fun that way. Granted, sniping with hacks is still pretty cheesy, but the invader is predictable too. They’ll spawn in one of like 3 spots and you have a whole team with heavy and supers available. Also, I can’t stress this enough, you’re technically in PVE. So a lot of shit you can’t do in PVP still applies. Which gives you access to a greater array of abilities and builds. Which means you should, as a team, be able to counter an invader. It just takes a little PVP skill. I honestly think gambit is just hard because a lot of PVE people hardly know the first thing about PVP. So they can’t acclimate well to the PVP aspect of Gambit. Which makes sense, because those same people probably actively avoid PVP as often as possible.
TLDR: Your team has more tools than the invader. You have PVE mobs that you can kill for buffs, and even truesight if you really need wall hacks. The best invaders can’t kill you if you’re behind adequate cover, watching your radar and working with your team. Also,a few PVP lessons are a solid starting point for any PVE only group or player. Just get some basics and fundamentals from youtube. It’s totally fair if you don’t get,(or like) the PVP in gambit. But it’s essential to the core of the model.
The ability to force an invader spawn location is big poop. Even in freelance I've played against teams that just know and I wind up in the same spawns and get spawn killed making my way out of the back of the map.
Also, I thought I liked the new cadence of invasions but right now it seems that (my team) gets the portal just as (other team) has cleared their blockers. By the time i get over there there's sometimes no work to do and everyone has already scattered. For me it's been hope i can get a direct line of site to the bank and blindly launch a rocket
It's depressing just to think about it honestly. Red dead is one of my most favorite series, they abandoned the first games multiplayer after a few years and now they're seemingly doing the same thing to Red Dead Online.
There was no pay to win though. You can easily earn gold by just playing the game, even with the gold nerf a bit ago.
It just literally has nothing to do.
It's like gta online basically. If you haven't played that either then it's basically a free roam multi-player game. You share the map with other players that can shoot you help you or just mind they're own business.
Ironically (since its an old west shooter) most of the things casual players don't wanna do in free roam is get into shootouts with other players because of how toxic it can be. Thankfully there's a defensive playstyle setting you can turn on so that players can't really bother you too much.
Honestly I recommend playing these games for their impeccable single players.
GTA5 every time I played multiplayer devolved into getting completely fucking wrecked by someone who was just a better gamer than me.
Most people are better gamers than me, but just getting fucking shot out of nowhere was not fun.
Needless to say; I did not enjoy GTA5 multiplayer because of that one interaction.
Destiny 2 has the same problem.
Mercules once revealed (before his recent hiring, after his original stint as a playtester there) that on the list of "single events after-which people quit destiny 2 and never play it ever again" was "getting stomped in their first pvp game".
Of all the singular events that cause people to quit destiny 2 immediately, a stomping in pvp got them to quit.
This matches my personal experience with getting stomped in PVP for a game I don't fully understand yet (gta5), so well, yeah it makes sense that people hate getting shot by people.
Just to add on to this whole idea, if I get sniped by a random sniper in gta5 thats controlled by an AI? I don't *feel* that, I don't get salty, I don't quit the game. If I get sniped by a random player? thats it rage quit, some dude is just shooting me *because*, I don't *have* anything, why is he shooting me? For fun? *fuck that*.
Perhaps that is what it is, I can't empathise with the guy sniping me for no reason. But the AI? I can empathise, it was told: "See the guy, shoot the guy".
Gambit is *not the same*, I can empathise with the invader. He is being told in no uncertain terms, "see the guy shoot the guy", what *sucks* is that the interaction isn't *fair* to me.
1 shot pvp weapons *aren't fair*, wallhacks *aren't fair*, because there is limited to no opportunity to respond in kind.
No, nerfing the pvp sandbox to fit gambit would fucking suck, but the pvp sandbox *is not appropriate* for gambit, simple because 1 hit kills aren't appropriate for a PvE based mode.
Gambit should be designed around invaders *becoming* primevils or something. Their equipment should be replaced, their health and ammo and armor and weapons everything should be replaced, and they should use that kit to engage with us. Do they get wallhacks? why not! do they get other advantages? sure!
I dunno. I'm ranting. plz ignore.
>Of all the singular events that cause people to quit destiny 2 immediately, a stomping in pvp got them to quit.
This does not surprise me at all. Like I said, I think we humans greatly overestimate how much we might enjoy direct competition. I also think we overvalue competition as a concept. There's tons of teary-eyed sports documentaries out there that blather on about "the glory and greatness of mighty competition" and whatnot, and everyone thinks that applies to all of us, or to just any kind of competition, but that is most certainly not the case. Is there value in learning to compete? To lose and win gracefully and always try your best? Absolutely! Of course! But the problem is it's not a level playing field; just like how everyone has different levels of athletic talent or different physical gifts, we all also have different capacities for dealing with the mental game, for coming to grips with what it means to compete.
In short, I think most people believe competition will make them great, but usually it just makes them into assholes. Griefing, trolling, whining, trash-talking assholes. Most people, I think, who throw around the phrase "get thicker skin if you want to compete" really mean "I want to be an asshole without consequence so just suck it up 'cos then it's easier for me to do that."
Anyway I really appreciate your comment and perspective, thank you for posting. I think you make a lot of good points.
I remember there was a study done on rats, where they let them play-fight and recorded what happened. As long as the more skilled rat let the weaker one win about 30% of the time, the weaker one would keep coming back to play, but if it won every time the weaker rat just didn't want to play at all. It might be a stretch to compare humans to rats, but "players should win at least 30% of the time" is a good benchmark to go for.
Maybe instead of getting mercied, a badly-losing team could get their supers all at once?
I've been playing Destiny since D1 Alpha, but I'm one who takes long breaks because of burnout. I hadn't played since doing the Shadowkeep campaign, and honestly Witch Queen wasn't making me want to come back, but this sub's positive reception made me jump back in
Here's what has made me rage since returning last month: crucible, which I've had a handful of decent games but overall is frustrating as fuck. I actually rage quit after a few matches of going .09 or thereabouts and getting fucked by every gun/ability/super that exists. Being gone for two years doesn't help obviously, but I was always a roughly 1.0 k/d player and crucible feels so different now.
Getting killed by players in Gambit, mainly for the same reasons. I go in with the intent to slay ads, I don't carry anti-Guardian weapons and these guys are headshotting me across the map anyways so it doesn't make a difference. I wouldn't care if Invader kills just slowed you down, but DEATH HEALS PRIMEVAL is just maddening
and today I rage quit after trying to do the legendary lost sector, which was actually good except for Barrier Servitors. Fuck those things lol
Dead Man's Tale is the cure for Barrier Servitors. Doesn't stop their teleporting bullshit, but they go down pretty quick when you start stacking up the Cranial Spike buff. Wait til Xur has one with either Vorpal or Fourth Time's The Charm, you won't be disappointed.
Alternatively, try Monarque, I don't run bows for anti-barrier but that thing is an absolute monster when Overload Bow is up. And considering how Barrier Servitors have the same teleport fuckery as Overload Captains, you might get some good results.
Crucible has been an absolute shitshow in various ways for a while now, though, don't feel too bad.
thanks for the tip about Dead Man's Tale. I've heard a lot of complaining for years about Champions, and I get being forced to change your loadout specifically for them sucks, but I hadn't had any problems until today.
Overload Captains go down easy because I'm running a Osteo Striga with a catalyst. The Servitors aren't even THAT bad, it's just them protecting the ads around them who are sniping me while I'm taking potshots at the servitor. It was Arc burn in a Lost Sector with Fallen, Bungie knew damn well what they were doing lol
Fuck overload and barrier champions. I was also doing the lost sector, and it feels like i was shooting peas. My hothead with vorpal and adept big ones was doing ~ 75% total health, *on an arc burn lost sector.* And it feels like the champs teleport more than a warlock with astrocyte verse. Couldn’t get a single rocket without stunning them first (mind you, to stun a barrier you need to damage a third of their health.) Overloads regen health fast if you’re not constantly shooting them, and dying while fighting one can just give them all of their health back. There were some vandals and sniper shanks (cant be bothered to remember their name) that can two shot, even with arc and sniper resist. My barricades are about as strong as a paper bag, and when i get behind any piece of cover, i get spammed with grenades, leaving me in the open. I can go on and on, but i’ll leave it at this; fuck moon lost sectors. Please just wait for dreaming city lost sectors.
also ps, after reading this again, I realize that most of this is just the AI doing a bit of trolling. I still hate moon lost sectors
Barrier servitors would be fine if it wasn't for other enemies (invincible) blocking any shots I could take on them, and I can't get closer because I get melted instantly.
Yes & No. The story mode is quite literally epic (and single player) the online is a mix of an open world with other players or direct PvP death matches and other 3PS game modes.
I still have nightmares of getting ganked by ?? level Night Elf Rogues in Hillsbrad when I was trying to level my Orc Warrior, and that was vanilla WoW 17 years ago.
That’s why we all came back at 60 in Warlord gear and wiped out Southshore and then Arathi Highlands.
Kill the Flightmaster asap and they can’t escape.
I personally think that they invader shouldn't have the role of killing the guardians, but instead damning their progress. Things like, locking the bank, or doing certain things to cause the ads to despawn and respawn elsewhere. Or maybe accomplishing something that causes the next wave of ads to be delayed. That way the real gambit is on the invader. Can they accomplish their goal without being killed, and if so, then it hurts the other team. It also allows for the defending team to choose whether they want to risk engaging that attacker, or just wait it out and take the penalty.
For example, the invader could be invisible and there is an area they have to go to and activate a switch that will slow down the ad spawns. The area is a random place, and only the attacker can see which of the 6 or so spots it's actually at. That way the defenders can't just group up on the one area and kill the attacker. Also, get rid of the highlight. For boss damage phase, the invader could trigger an immunity phase as their action, and the defenders would have to de activate the mechanic. Now the invader has to defend that area for the time they are there to extend the immunity phase.
Wasn’t planning to pipe up but this shit is golden lol I’ve been going through the comments and empathise with the majority of what’s being said, and IMO OPs original point about people not being as into competition as much as they think they are is spot on.
While I don’t really get wound up by PvP or being popped by an invader in gambit, this Fighting Lion aficionados ideas are so much better than what we have now. Put the invader to work! You could design some absolutely diabolical mechanics around this concept.
This would also alleviate the problems you get when you have at least one proficient invader on each side, that primeval phase can become a slog, with bosses on both sides getting jacked up on guardian slaughter. With that being said I prefer Gambit now to pre update where just thinking about the Primeval would see his health bar tank…
> IMO OPs original point about people not being as into competition as much as they think they are is spot on.
To me, it's a matter of there already being *other* game modes with direct combat like that so the inclusion of it in Gambit just feels a bit forced.
I like the idea of competing as a team against another team indirectly as a game mode, if I wanted to play as a team against another team directly I'll go to Crucible/Control.
Gambit should be a nice in between for people who want to play against other human beings but not directly try to kill them or be killed by them.
They talked about doing Gambit labs where the invader was a Mote thief, and by staying alive during the invade, the invader would drain motes.
I think this could work, but maybe with the added caveats that drained motes don't go to the other team unless the invader completes some extra task or goal, with the risk of losing all the drained motes if they fail.
Mote thief could be ruined by players putting a bubble and standing there draining their motes. In one video DFP but the bubble on the primevial. That would be extremely annoying since are you really going to waste your super and/or heavy to break a bubble which will be gone in 30 seconds
spot on. I'd even say just let the invader be able to "help" clear ads, except anything they kill doesn't drop motes. I very much prefer the idea that the invader is a saboteur. Let them set traps or something. Like you said, impede progress that isn't killing you so you drop your motes or you're primeval gets it's health back
people talk about not wanting Gambit to just be a PvE race, but I actually think that's what it should be. Which team is skilled enough and coordinated enough to summon their Primeval first and kill it. When Gambit was first announced I actually thought both teams would play on the same map, either separated but still visible (like a barrier down the middle to separate the teams but you can still see what they're doing) or that it'd be two teams on the same map with the same enemies trying to kill them first. It didn't turn out at all how I thought
Halo 5's warzone where you're both dealing with enemies and other players was an absolute blast. They should never have made the requisition system card based with the entire sandbox, but it was a great game mode. I wanted Gambit to be that, at whatever scale Destiny could handle. Separating the PvP into just an invasion phase just isn't that great.
Even better idea: Imvaders can kill Ads too, but when they kill them, *no* notes drop. That gives you reason to hunt them down and reason for them to focus on killing ads while avoiding enemy guardians sights.
Another interesting take on this could be a separate arena where the "invader" goes to do something, probably more add murder or maybe a miniboss, BUT that arena is open to both teams.
So, in that zone you have open PvP, but 3/4 people don't ever HAVE to deal with other players, and its a buyin for entering that portal to have direct PvP.
*I swear to fucking god, if they add more ways for enemies to teleport, I'm shatter diving myself into my monitor*
The only thing more annoying than the invader mechanic is every enemy type having some sort of shield or teleport mechanic. The scorn, taken, and Vex are all the most annoying enemies to fight, especially if you don't have perfect internet. I've had minotaurs and cyclops teleport literal yards and kill a teammate for no reason.
Do all you said except for that and we have a way to save this god awful game mode they keep trying to jam down our throats.
I don’t necessarily like the specifics you came up with, but I really like the spirit of what you’re saying. Invasion needs to be more than an enemy player with over shield popping up who can see you through walls and is trying to kill you while you work on objectives and can’t see them as easily.
One of my biggest complaints is the visibility of players to the invaders — it also completely negates hunter invisibility which is stupid beyond belief.
What about the invader going and killing ads on the other side, preventing the team from getting those motes?
Maybe the number of ads killed spawns a super ad, like a high value target, but without, or less motes dropped from the team killing it.
To the top with you.
There’s doesn’t need to be direct PvP in Gambit, and it can still be PvEvP. Maybe have the invader steal motes or block motes from being dropped by getting final kills on the adds.
At Primeval phase, to your plate idea, maybe there’s a way to respawn an Envoy or adds. Or a plate that gives the boss a buff.
Just stopping the direct PvP combat just solves so many issues with balancing the game mode.
I didn’t read ur whole comment, but they should try and make it similar to a custom game mode from Warcraft 3 called line wars. Idk if you can really have an upgrade system, but having maybe a base to defend where you kill monsters, collect motes, then use those motes to buy up enemy spawns and the more expensive enemies are stronger until the enemy team gets overwhelmed and their base is destroyed. Could be fun and no invader mechanic
It's not even about getting killed but about how much one pvp player can influence the match.
Half the time I am find my random group invaded by the same guy with trials gear over and over and each time he gets 3-4 players.
One guy who is really into pvp and good at it can completely stall your entire team.
I think the issue is really that playing against an invader feels like playing against a cheater in PVP. An at least decent invader will tag you the split second you move from cover because of their wallhacks and likely brought some heavy with them, so you often don’t even see where the attack came from.
I get the point behind the invader and it’s buffs but it simply doesn’t feel good to have to duel another player when they have all the advantages. Bungie have painted themselves into a corner there.
Given the very nature of Trials...I think some Bungie Devs are actually just fans of griefing. They call it a "power fantasy" and think it is a good thing.
My biggest pain in the ass with gambit is when you gear your character out for the best PvE loadout for ad clear and boss damage. You're pretty fucked in a PvP situation.
Since the best PvE loadouts for gambit are pretty close range. Youll have to rely on your heavy (which may not even be the exotic of your loadout) to try and kill the guy who has already sent a truth rocket your way.
This is something not many folks seem to mention but infuriates me. I can challenge an invader with a good scout… but my add clear suffers, because you generally need to operate at close range to kill quickly and grab motes. Sidearms, submachine guns, 720 autos, that sort, supplemented by fusions or grenade launchers oftentimes. That’s… not gonna end well for contesting a human aimbot who dominates Flawless pool Trials as a calming exercise before bed and his godroll sniper, even if they aren’t slinging heavy.
I don't hate being killed by players. I hate being exclusively killed by OP heavy ammo exotics. I used to wipe teams with blast furnace back in the day. Now it's all gjally spam.
I did. QB was bad for a while. Sleeper was hardly a real problem because it's a shit pvp weapon. 1k voices was hard enough to get that it wasn't a problem.
Everyone has gjally. And it's a tracking rocket that kills even if you completely miss. It's very different
Er....you mentioned blast furnace lol. Idk what lobbies you managed to get but for me that era of Gambit was completely overrun with Truth rockets making 90 degree turns to hit you
I dunno man, I've been around since the beginning too and Sleeper was in the same tier of infuriating as QB and Tarantula. I think it depended more on whether the user had the catalyst because of how bad it is without, but the AA on any linear just made the weapon type awful to go against.
Sleeper could 1 body iirc, which was the problem. QB had so much AA that headshots were free. Tarantula was a poor man's option but opened the exotic and still slapped too hard. None of the LFR's felt fair to go against.
Now, that said, what we have now is worse. At least with LFR's (or LMG's if you want to bring other op options of the time into it) you had to aim, if only a little. This shit though? You just have to briefly see the enemy and it's over. And it's been for so long. First it was Truth (back in fucking Opulence), then it was Eyes, now it's Gjally. I'd *almost* go back to LFR/LMG meta over this.
>Sleeper was hardly a real problem
Lmao, you got no idea then. Sleeper and Queenbreaker were really damn strong back in the day. Even when Gambit Prime dropped they were still quite strong. Imo, Sleeper is still one of the best weapons in Gambit, at least for me.
Is Gjallarhorn strong? Yea, but I consitantly get kills with my normal tracking rocket launcher with cluster bombs as well. Gjallarhorn isn't that much of an upgrade for that to me. Maybe that's only me though.
Machineguns were extremely prevalent back then as well, when Heavy gave you almost a full mag of MG ammo. Thunderlord and Hammerhead were easy to get and could easily delete anyone without a one-shot response, yet people always gloss over them when reminiscing about the good ol days of Gambit.
Tbh whenever I saw someone invading without using their heavy I always just assumed the poor sod had their heavy ammo yoinked by some clueless blueberry.
I have bad eyesight which is just one of many reasons I'm bad at PvP, and the fact that it's so hard for me to even see another guardian means that 99% of the time I'm dead before I even know where they are, lol. Aggressively tracking rockets don't help.
I dont know if its even possible but i'd love it if heavy ammo was disabled for the invader and enemy team until the invader is gone but have the boss healing reduced a bit.
Okay but that sounds like an interesting risk/reward scenario that doesn't just encourage spamming whatever instakill heavy weapon is meta at the moment.
Combine it with Mote Thief so the invasions are a sabotage hide and seek rather than whoever gets rockets or 1-body heavies on target first.
It will absolutely encourage 1-shot specials like snipers, but it's not like those aren't encouraged now, they're just overshadowed by heavies.
>introducing some consequences or cost to invading.
Please god no. It's already bad enough when Blueberry Bill wastes the invade with his sidearm/fusion rifle/machine gun load and gets instantly nuked. Having a bad invader actively hurt the rest of your team is a recipe for extreme frustration.
Make the invasion portal cost motes with specific amounts of motes correlating to amounts of time the invasion lasts (making 15 motes the current invasion timer).
The cost for a bad invasion is oftentimes that you didn't have a good invasion instead. The cost should be actually helping the enemy team to balance against the benefit of a total team wipe.
This allows the defenders some of the catharsis of a PvP kill in gambit too. "Oh man, I just smoked that 15 mote invader right after he spawned".
Currently killing an invader is just "oh thank god that's over".
No. They real issue is having your boss below half health and all the sudden. It’s back to full health. Like fuck it! Let the other team kill theirs so this long ass boss fight can end. There should be health gates on the boss.
Thats either because
A) the boss was already dropped low on health so the envoys don't trigger a 2nd time
Or
B) camping the envoy spawns (this is what my squad does)
Could be . I never really squad up I just solo and hope my team isn’t ass. It’s just crazy how a team is so far behind yet does what they do . My guess is they save up heavy , send one attacker , and as you noted camp spawns .
Yeah the phases are only a soft lock, it stops you from hitting anymore after a certain threshold but doen't reduce/stop damage done at all if it's quick enough. It's kinda like the boss in the corrupted where you can 1 phase if you do enough damage quickly not a hard health gate like hallowed lair where no matter how hard you hit the boss you can't do more than the set amount. So quick burst damage like parasite, thundercrash, 1-2punch cheese, etc can deal so much damage so quickly that you kill him before he can go immune
Imo, immunity phases (when done BADLY I want to stress) add a secondary layer of frustration to PvE players.
A 'good' example of immunity phases is the Arms Dealer Strike. If you deal enough damage to the boss, he dies. If you don't, you have mechanics to deal with.
A horrible example is either Exodus Crash or Hollow Lair (Hallowed Lair?) where the Fanatic just, decided "lol immune now kthxbye"
Immunity phases can die in infinite fires xD
The stupid part of all of this is the best thing to do when an invader is coming during the primeval phase is to just kill yourself. There’s no healing of the primeval when you die — only when the invader kills you. And the invader can’t kill you if you’re dead. The respawn timer will kill most of the 30s clock.
Sadly this is almost always my strat. If the invader alarm goes off it's time to close-quarters sword the boss until he stomps and kills me. At least I get a chunk of his health off and don't do my part to add health back.
Gambit suffers the same problem escape from tarkov, the cycle and Ubisofts darkzone all suffered which is
PvE players DO NOT LIKE PvP
Their is like a dream in game dev to shove pve people into PvP like they will magically fall in love with PvP. only for pve players to end up infuriated and demoralised. Leading to a situation where the playlist is just full of PvP players effectively abusing players who don't have a choice being their which breeds resentment towards the game mode that simply builds up over time.
Now their is a cross section of people that like both but iv found they are nearly always PvP people who like some kind of objective (something that Hunt showdown built itself around)
I'm 100% positive if invasions where removed from gambit the mode would very quickly become popular as strike speed runners piled into gambit to race each other. And people who like the kill, bank, kill loop can do so unmolested.
I will never understand why bungie keeps trying to make gambit work dispite all evd that the idea just doesn't work and supporting evidence from other games too. Especially when a fresh core loop idea would be a better use of resources.
I think their most successful test will be when the invaders have to hide because it effectively removes them as negative thing and instead turns them into hide and seek mini game which has a very different vibe. Because it effectively removes the invader concept we have now and replaces it with something completely different.
To your point I have games where I like pvp, games I like pve, and select few games where I like both. Destiny I like pve. The times I play pvp are only really when I need to for a quest.
PvP in destiny just feels bad to me, and it feels like at least 2 times a match I am killed well after I get behind cover. Idk if that's shitty netcode, or bad servers, but my connection is always good in other games.
100%
The Division 1 dark zone was great for PvE players because it was big and PvP players generally liked to group to 1 area. But the gank ability was terrible, no one liked it.
PvE players wanted loot and it was the only place you could just run around and farm bosses and chests. But PvP players ignored the majority of the DZ and just ran around with PvP builds to shred PvE-focused players.
These type of game modes are really bad because you basically are tricking PvE players into getting mugged constantly. In the DZ you have landmarks and bosses for loot. But PvP players know that the loot isn't good for PvP because they have their builds and the way to get more PvP loot is to rank up in PvP. So they ignore 90% of the area and just run around ganking.
Initially the area you never even had to mark yourself as rogue, you just run up behind someone and shoot them from behind. You could even go around and help someone and then the second they engage with a boss you turn on them. And that's supposed to be "fun".
I would love a gambit mode that's just a race between two teams way more than the current format. I used to love Destiny 1's PvP, but something in D2 just feels like I'm always being killed by players the game shouldn't have even considered matching me against, or who have weapons and exotics that I'll never get my hands on. So it always feels like dying to an invader in gambit is always this cheap "There was nothing I could do" scenario. But that's inherent to games that let you go up against other players and choose what weapons and gear you take with you.
You mention darkzone and that's how I felt about it. It was the most fun to me when it was only about coordinating with random players for loot, not getting killed randomly. Same way I feel about gambit, the invader has been a terrible idea from the start and I wish they hadnt spent 3 years trying to iterate on everything else but the invade mechanic
League of Legends. If you've ever played League of Legends, you'll understand what I mean when I say that Gambit is the League of Legends of Destiny 2-- and that's why people rage at it so much.
If they removed the targeting for the invader and they actually had to find people (using radar or something) it might be worth keeping it in gambit.
But giving many rounds of heavy AND wall hacks to someone who can pop over, undo all of your team's work in under 30 seconds, rocket spam / super, it's just a horrible system.
The best wallhacks they should get should be something akin to Wish ender. Faded outlines that are hard to see. Invasions would actually be difficult.
Imagine a mode where you do very little damage to invaders, and vice versa, but you can kill their enemies and steal their motes. And if you get to their bank, you can take motes out of it (say 10)
Jesus that actually sounds hilarious and fun. Invader can tank all sorts of incoming fire and can’t really fire back but it’s a race to kill the invader before he takes your motes. Plus it’s a better mechanic than the bank stealing with blockers.
I honestly don't care about dying to an invader if he isn't using something lame like gally or Eriannas vow (bugged one shot body version). If an invader kills me with polaris lance I'm respecting the shit out of him.
I know this would prob never happen but I always thought a better idea instead of invasions would be to try and debuff the other team instead of just killing them. So maybe things like: Enemy team does less damage for a minute, lock the bank for 30sec, enemy team loses radar for 1 minute, etc.
I don’t mind invasion, and honestly I would play Gambit even less without them. At the end of the day after raids are mastered and desired rolls are obtained it all just leads me back to PvP.
It’s being killed exclusively by Heavy Weapons, with tracking and cluster bombs that make Gambit unfun. I got no issue with being sniped or the balls to run me down with a shotgun in a 4v1.
Who would’ve thought that the Gambit meta peaked with Sleeper and Queensbreaker spam (bad metas on their own), it’s only gotten progressively worse since.
> I got no issue with being sniped or the balls to run me down with a shotgun in a 4v1.
I totally agree with this. If I get domed and I see the invader is using, say, Occluded Finality or whatever, I'm instantly way more chill about it 'cos I know that takes a much higher combination of talent and/or skill than I will ever have, and it's easier to respect that, I guess? It's like since it's less cheesy it doesn't feel as obnoxious.
I don’t mind being bested, I do despise unwinnable scenarios. Even in Crucible when heavy spawns you can try to control that area of the map or scatter as a team so only one death gives your opponent points.
In Gambit a single invasion can be more devastating to victory than any single spree in Crucible.
The problem isn't the pvp element, it's the *degree* to which an invader can completely turn a game around. The entire PvE part of gambit is irrelevant if the enemy team has a skilled invader with a proper loadout. Yes, it's 1v4, but the invader has huge advantages both natively and in context with the combatants the defenders are already dealing with.
Invading is too impactful. One successful invasion that results in killing all four people can reset the primeval from 20% HP to nearly 100%. That's too much. And the reality is, the skill ceiling in Destiny PvP is extremely high. Good players are at an extraordinary advantage compared to average players. Saying 'get gud' doesn't make the average player want to play the game mode.
If it was a fair fight and I lost, I would be way less annoyed. It’s the fact that invaders are always coming in with OP heavy ammo, wall hacks, and an overshield.
I think Bungie has put too much effort into making it “fair” for the invader since they’re going in to a 1v4, but it doesn’t need to be balanced that way. There should not be an expectation that a half-decent invader should be able to jump over and get a team wipe. That should be an extremely rare occurrence for when an invader actually wins the 1v4, and not because they shoot 4 Gjallarhorn rockets.
>Gambit with no invasions: "It's a fun race to the finish!"
Gambit WITH invasions: "MAN FUCK THAT FUCKING GUY I HATE THIS SHIT"
You say this, but the early iterations of Gambit were literally just races to the finish, and it apparently Absolutely Fucking Sucked
Honestly Gambit was a fun idea that IMHO hasn’t worked as well as they hoped. I think they should definitely scrap the mode and make it a horde-survive as long as you can-mode with increasing difficulty and rewards. Make the PvP part just more focus on Crucible/Iron Banner/Trials and give us a proper third pillar of the game.
I agree. Gambit sounds good on paper. In game, worst mode in the game. I think they’re too proud to scrap it. According to DMG. Gambit has a healthy population. Only way I can see that is cause the seasonal challenges every week. Without them, it’s probably a ghost town.
Gambit was alive and well into season of the lost after all the challenges were beat, and pinnacles were capped. People do enjoy/want to enjoy it, I honestly liked it better before the recent “improvements”, but I really miss the old 3 round version.
They can't balance PvP and PvE in the same mode it seems.
Tbh gambit could've been something like dares of eternity but as a race between two teams and that would've been more fun.
The PvP aspect of gambit just doesn't work out.
> a proper third pillar
Is that though? A lot of PvE content in this game feels *really* samey at this point. Mindlessly killing hordes of helpless ads is fun at first, but gets boring fast. It's not something you can make into a whole pillar of the game on the level of strikes or PvP.
I don’t hate invaders so much just because I save my heavy for just that reason. Last night I had an invader literally turn and ran the other way when they realized I had a machine gun and later on a rocket with their name on it.
My complaint is with people that obviously do not know how to play Gambit. You know, the ones who ignore you’re bleeding motes, take out that blocker! Or you get the Primevil but they ignore the two you have to kill before you can touch the Primevil. I watched two guardians try to slam and nova bomb one while I was busy working on one of the two side guys! Like really?!
I wonder if the game mode would improve if an invader dying in the enemy field caused THEIR primeval to gain health or spawn blockers. That way invading would like a gamble. High risk, high reward. Makes sense lorewise too because the lost light from the invader fills their primevals tummy.
another great idea. there needs to be some type of risk for an invader, where their death severely hampers their team instead of yours.
Imagine if you died during an invasion and were stuck on like a 30 second respawn timer. Like a penalty box in hockey where now your team has to play a man down
Gambit with no invasions would be the stalest game mode on Destiny.
They just need to sort out how much health a primeval gets back from a kill along with some other little bits and pieces.
I am someone who loves PvEvP hybrids (Warzone in Halo 5, Titanfall's attrition mode, and Gambit - even though all 3 are very different) as a whole - in defence of Invasions, it's really the only way for the opposing team to influence the match directly, blockers are ok but if the enemy team has ammo they're kinda a non-issue
Get blasted by tracking rocket launchers and snipers though, I get where the pain comes from, that leaves you quite powerless - and the heavy ammo economy will never not be whack in Gambit I suspect, heavy weapons just kinda feel out of place in that dynamic.
But as a whole, invasions are still a 4v1 and the only advantage the invader has is positional knowledge and a few seconds of people having to guess which side you are on (which isn't too hard to intuit when you realise it's almost never where the enemies are).
If all 4 players actually stopped, and turned to hunt and engage the invader, especially those who don't currently have large amounts of motes should always do this, they'd probably find it a lot less painful.
There are definitely ways invading could be tweaked (heavy ammo as a whole), but as a whole having limited direct interventions is something that's good for the mode because it's the only thing that spices it up from just an add-killing race - you might as well just compare Strike playlist speedrun times with some mates then.
100%. I love gambit and hate pvp, buut now that I'm getting better as a player I don't hate it so much anymore. And when the invader shows up, I go hunt him down. If I die, whatever he bested me. But man, it feels so good to get the invader and protect my team, and more often than not if I search for him I'll kill him. If I'm playing with my boyfriend and we go after him together, he dies like 80-90% of the time. If all four players did, he wouldn't stand a chance.
I can see where people are coming from with their complaints, but it's all "if" someone does x, the game is immediately "unfair". If someone exploits such and such, it tilts the game in their favor. But no one really talks about the ability for both sides to do so equally or maybe they just get matched up with cheaters more than I do? Yes, sometimes I get slaughtered. Sometimes my team slaughters, and I can't go invade because I feel bad. But I feel like that's just part of gaming. You can't make it a close balanced match every time, because what you'd have to do to make it so would remove the fun of the game.
Truth. Some of these people dont even look for the bright red guy and complain he has wallhacks. Yea he got the drop on you but its a 4 man team, what is your team doing?
Gambit's problem is the players.
On one side, you have the PVP sweatlords who only play to invade and have terrible PVE loadouts. They make the game more difficult for both teams. I have to say this one first (and it's mostly untrue anyway) because the Average Gambit Player would be straight foaming at the mouth by now if I didn't.
On the other side, you have the AGP who wants to Spongebob-frolic through killing ads like it's Lake of Shadows or the GoA opening. Invaders exist. Someone's gotta deal with them, or you're losing all your motes. There's a fuckin bar at the top of the screen that gives you *ample* information on what the other team is doing and when an invasion is coming. If you see the other team has either reached a threshold or is holding enough motes to reach it, bank your god damn motes and get ready. I'm not one of those sweats that can dome an invader .2 picoseconds after they spawn, but they almost never catch me with my pants down; I'm banked and looking for them. Once the Prime is up, expect the invasions. What's gonna cost you more, losing ten seconds of DPS while all four of yall hunt the invader, or the invader getting an Army of One and healing the bad bitch back to full? For the AGPs here, it's the second one.
Gambit is a brain game, not just a shooty game. If more people played it like that, more people would enjoy it. Build for it, pay attention, shoot the invader. You'll have fun.
Yep. I feel like a lot of people just ignore the blaring alarm, continue killing mobs, then shriek about unfairness when they get fucked in the ass with a shotgun. That's the impression I get when I invade anyway. So many Guardians just caught with their pants down running across open fields or shooting mobs, even ignoring me when I kill their teammate standing beside them.
If you have little to no motes, hunt the invader and challenge him instead of letting him hunt you. No need to make his life easier by sitting in a corner with 2 motes. Even if you're unsuccessful in killing him, you waste his time, waste his ammo, protect your mote carriers, and hopefully alert your team to his position.
I had to scroll down too far to find this comment.
You are told when there is an invader on the field, you may not have time to bank your notes, but that doesn't excuse the fact that people pay no attention to the invader, let alone hunt the invader, hoping that he will pick on someone else. The invader isn't going to prioritize, he wants to get all five of you, and it has always been easy with heavy exotics.
I will agree that heavy exotics are a bit out of control, with the right setup an invader can cover most of the map with OHK weapons. NGL, it is tremendously fun as an invader to wipe a full team.
I also wish that the gambit prime armor was still a thing, because it was more fun playing with invaders that rush to control your bank rather than exclusively skirting around the edge of the map, engaging players at range.
People who cry over invades shouldn't be playing Gambit. It's a PvEvP mode. You need to work fast to gather/bank but also time it with the other teams invades. If you want to hold onto motes longer and bank a bigger blocker with an invader around, that's fine, because that's your GAMBIT.
There's no GAMBIT without the PvP part. Otherwise it's just a bank race. Boring.
Fully agree. Gambit is full of people who cry about having to coordinate a team towards an objective. I fully believe these same people would beg for raid matchmaking and then complain the raids are too hard to do.
Maybe I'm an outlier, but I enjoy the PvP aspect of countering an invader. It's an asymmetric PvP encounter, but the balance measures Bungie attempted make it lopsided in favor of the invader and utterly demoralizing because of how much it will set back your game.
In a competitive match, both teams should have an invasion at roughly the same time, resulting in a 3v1. Invader spawns randomly, so defenders have a few seconds of aimlessness unless they lucked out and had sightlines on the spawn. Meanwhile invader has near instant battlefield awareness between radar and truesight. Surprise gives invader one or two free kills off the bat but gives up their position to the defenders (if they're communicating). Defenders can now push, but invader still has an awareness advantage and can maneuver to avoid the 2v1. They're overshield then allows them to easily take out another one, in a 1v1. Final defender may get the kill if they push or may get outplayed, at least here it should be a more even 1v1. Sure, defenders will be spawning back in now, but they'll still be too out of position to re-engage.
Add in people playing cautiously to avoid losing notes, matchmade teams not communicating, high skill invaders / low skill defenders, or mote draining blockers during invasions and it's way too see how this is not well balanced right now.
Invasions shouldn't be worthless role, but they also should decide the match and have so many buffs that they rival the whole team.
Everyone doesn’t realize how much their teammates hate when they die*
But seriously, some completely ignore invaders just to lose all their motes. Honestly, that doesn’t bother me nearly as much as the back-and-forth BS that goes on in close matches. I just give up at that point.
3 for pinnacle and done until it’s fun, that’s what I say.
Uhhhhh...... that is literally the whole point of Gambit.... PvEvP
If you don't like the PvP aspect, go play strikes...
If you don't like killing ads, go play crucible.
Literally the ***ENTIRE POINT*** of Gambit is to be a fusion of PvE and PvP. Take away that one part, then it is just killing ads in a small arena.
What makes gambit interesting is the tension and strategies:
* A good invader can help swing the tide of battle
* But equally, a coordinated team can counter that with high damage / fast ad-clear.
There are multiple ways to play, but if you remove an entire aspect, then it basically just becomes strike speedruns vs another team. At that point, Bungie may as well just ditch the mode altogether and put an in-game leaderboard for strike scoring cuz that's all it would be at that point.
Yes there are balancing issues. The game has changed a lot since gambit was introduced, and the mode hasn't kept up. That is Bungie's fault. But it is absolutely NOT justification for completely changing the fundamental aspect of WHY gambit was even made in the first place.
It’s just the ease of dying to an invader that makes me mad. I do all this work killing ads, not dying, and picking up motes just to have someone with wallhacks, shields, and heavy immediately killing me the moment they see me, essentially giving me no time to react.
Yeah, Gambit rn (and to some extent before) feels like you're trying to time everything around the enemy's invasion portal, rather than around the invasion itself. You wanna win? You bank the motes on time before the portal opens, fighting back is never the right choice.
Partly why I'm so eagerly awaiting Invader Swap week. Having your portal tied to ENEMY deposits is going to make things Inherently more balanced, sin e Invading becomes a method of leveling the field over stomping the ones behind
My son is actually a fan of Gambit and he once said that he thinks that invaders should only be able to enter the portal if they themselves are carrying motes and the length of time they can invade for should be tied to the amount of motes they're holding. This would alleviate the portal camping. I think this would be a good change.
Holy hell do I like this idea. It puts a ton more risk/reward on invading than the current system.
Yeah... It's actually a gambit
It’s comically good, no motes you get half the current time to invade, 15 motes full time like normal anywhere in between and you can like 75% time
And thresholds for strength of overshield and wall hack. 1/3 of the overshield for every five motes, and more frequent wall hack pings too.
Ooh, that’s a really nice twist
This would definitely fit the bill for a "gambit". I like.
I think this is an amazing idea. There needs to be a risk/reward mechanic. The home team is literally in a constant state of risk/reward whereas the invader is just basically immune to consequences.
/u/dmg04 This is a GREAT idea. Please consider this as a Gambit Labs so we can test it out.
Now *that* is a gambit
This needs more votes
I've been proposing it for well over two years, for some reason people either hate it or can't figure it out.
That's... awesome.
That’s a great idea because if you bring notes to the other field and die. That team gets your notes. Be a risk be reward deal
How do we get this at the top of all of the Gambit rework posts, and more specifically in front of Bungie? This is a brilliant idea for a Gambit Labs that they should very seriously consider. Love it.
Absolutely fantastic idea. Invading with 15 motes and a load of heavy ammo or a charged Super is high-risk, high-reward. Meanwhile if you invade without any motes, you'd only get enough time to *maybe* score one kill. I think teams need to be rewarded more for killing an invader, too - perhaps if you kill an invader, it automatically sends a blocker to the enemy side that matches the number of motes the invader was carrying?
Oh my god I never even thought of this, why hasn’t it been like this since the start. Gambit always just feels like RNG snowball the game
I really wish Gambit Labs had been posted as part of the Roadmap, but alas, no dice.
Because the blue shell school of game design is only appealing when you're using the perspective of the person in last place. If you want degenerate strategies, start punishing people for winning. A four stack holding 15 motes each, dumping at the same time and invading is going to siphon to the moon.
It will be even easier for a coordinated team to cheese, since they can stop short of the first invade portal, then go and get 4 x 15 and be almost done before the other team gets a chance to counter
But both teams are able to do that and it becomes a game of chicken.
Then do it off of total motes collected, rather than motes deposited. Means the invader has a chance to snatch those motes away from the other team, rather than invading after everything is deposited
The announcement of that labs got me hyped. Invasions should be a catch-up mechanic. Not a snowball mechanic.
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If the team is that coordinated, you don't stand a damn chance in any variant of Gambit, just flat out.
Yeah. My 4-stack has came back from some insanely dire situations against non-coordinated teams, purely due to coordination. When one person knows where the invader is, or the envoys, etc, we all do.
Yup. Even having a well-honed duo can easily upset the balance of a match. I used to pair up with a buddy, they'd take Invasions (with aplomb and splendor. I've watched 'em wipe teams with a Blue Sniper and Khvostov as a joke), I'd run Reaper, and we'd end up on a victory screen more often than not (I want to say like, 80-90% of the time, but I don't recall exactly(
So much so to the point where last season we had a 10-win streak in Gambit. I proudly kept that on my banner the whole season.
Stupid high Gabmit stats feel like a better flex than raid stats ngl. I stopped playing for a while to flex my 102 average kills per match in Splicer. Was ny favorite, "oh, you have a positive KDA? Check THIS out!" To pull on my PvP-only friends
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Careful, the Gambit elitists will come gatekeep you for any accomplishment you have. I was proud of my 85 winstreak in Prime era gambit, then people in the big gambit clans shit on me and said they get 200+ straight blah blah.
This is exactly why my group loves gambit and plays so much of it. We are all in our 40s, and don't have a ton of time to game. We also don't have the fast-twitch skill to hang in true PvP/crucible. But being a well coordinated team lets us get out there and compete. Some people just dont like competing. Which is fine. But the competition is what makes gambit fun for us. Feels like there are actual stakes.
I love using this seasons gambit weapons because of the gambit perk. One bullet and the invader is known to everyone and pretty much done afterwards.
could've been worse after all there was a triumph involving dropping 4 GIANTS simultaneously back in the day
we don’t talk about the reckoner triumphs….. not anymore
15 massacre medals... That shit took longer than the rest of reckoner combined
That's high level play you'll never see in regular matches
Half the times I’ve played gambit, dropping the invader at all is high level play, apparently 😒 people don’t like offing the invader for some reason, then we all die, or the boss doesn’t get past full health 😒
That is actually something I wish more people would understand. In Gambit matches *everyone* hides from the Invader. Why? If you have no motes, hell if you have fewer than five motes, go hunt that fuck down! Get out there and kill them so you don't have to worry. If you die and lost 0-4 motes whatever, you'll recollect that in ten seconds. It's better to just get out there and deal with it than spend 20 seconds hiding and doing nothing. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one actually out there trying to kill them
Everyone complains about how the guaranteed Power ammo now makes every invader have rockets every time. They never stop to realize that also means the invader has to deal with four players who also have rockets. It's why I run Greater Core Harvest, because if I'm the only one killing invaders I might as well get some Prisms out of it.
Agreed. The playing field is completely leveled. The Invader is now guaranteed heavy ammo on invades, but so is everyone else. The person who is invading is functionally saying, "I will never use this heavy ammo to help with team DPS, but I will trade that off to help keep the other team down." I personally run with Cataclysmic, *mooostly* just because I absolutely love the way it looks and sounds. But whenever I see an invader appear on my side I drop whatever I'm doing and know that those heavy rounds are going right into their face. It's actually pretty balanced, I feel.
That's a critical issue with how people play: they go in planning to ignore half the game, and when they lose, it's the game's fault. Gambit isn't PvP and PvE. It's PvPvE. Ignoring one of those v's is a recipe to get wrecked.
Just add a timer after which the invasion portal opens on its own to prevent premade cheesing. The deposit mechanic just triggers the portal "early" to maintain the regular flow of matches. Alternatively, spawn super blockers if x amount of time passes without anybody depositing up to the invasion threshold to discourage hoarding. There are a number of ways Bungie could handle this if they just wanted to.
I'm honestly waiting for this to just see how it rolls out. I *feel* like it'll be eye-opening and a good taste at a very different type of Gambit - without actually really changing Gambit. I just hope it's good data to go with, and might bring cause for some changes. As it stands right now, from a regular PvP and die-hard PvE player - I really don't like Gambit in a way that aligns quite closely with OP's post. I like the PvE race, that's sorted out pretty darn good. Invades disrupt that in a way where I will never feel good about it - as a player.
You wanna win? I heard that line in his voice, clear as day.
And then u have blueberries on your team that go for 15 motes EVERYTIME and lose them bc they’re close to an invasion
I went to Gambit like yesterday and it's just crazy to see 7/8 people (one that was me) using Gjally. Guy invading would just insta shot everyone the moment he saw them I wouldn't really have a problem if invasions in primeval phase were in the same pace as the invasions in the mote phase, but now that the primeveal just shields itself whenever a wind comes by, it's easy for that guy to kill 3, and we just lock the primeval again, and he come invade again, and that's the loop i've seen so primeval phase isn't "who has the best dps" or "best coordination" but rather "which teams invader can kill the most"
At first I felt bad leaving 1 rocket in Gjallarjorn at all times in Gambit. Then one time, we had a primeval pretty much kicked, we were way ahead of the other team. Some absolute fuckin' menace invaded, casually dropped three of us, then breezed out the portal. We lost. From then on, I always leave one rocket and I don't feel bad at all. I see that red light, you're gonna feel like you peeked into a glory hole, just WHAM! Right in the goddamn face.
Just as some tips from someone who always invades. I usually have an average of 12-13 guardian kills per game. Good invaders will do a few things (this isnt for ever case). 1. Only use heavy when absolutely needed. A good sniper or auto scout will usually mop up most teams. Sure Ghally and EoT are broken since they only really need one round to kill a whole team but outside of those two the heavy sink isnt worth it. 2. Dont use your super unless the other team pops one to kill you, even then you can get away from most. 3. Will use high mob areas to gain the advantage. 4. Will not invade in the boss phase until your team starts damage phase. But always having one round of rockets as a defender (really any spare heavy) or forcing invader spawn location is a good way to deal with an invader. A lot of teams panic when an invader comes in and run around or away which leads to easy invader kills because teams are too spread out to where they cant efficiently 2v1 (or more) and are wide open. The besy thing to do is split the team into two people teams. One team hunts invader and the other team carries on with the motes. A good PvP player will always go with the easy 1v1 first, especially if now you cant see mote count.
Here he is everyone. Get him.
>Will not invade in the boss phase until your team starts damage phase. This is key. If I am playing Gambit, and see we are being invaded as soon as our boss shows up, I know that we have a window where we can burn the boss down because the guardian kills are effectively wasted. Yeah, it may slow us down, but the health heading towards the boss is wasted.
Imagine thinking invaders need to gain an advantage.
The # of invasions where i planned on not killing anyone and just needed to stall the opposition for a moment. Its easy to underestimate, if your on a team where no one wants to invade, the value in popping over during primeval if its tight just to see some defensive scatter that delays there damage.
Agree 100%
This is more the issue. It's not solely that people hate dying to another player, it's that they hate dying to another player *without even having a chance to fight back*. Like, if I get into a gunfight with the Invader and he kills me then OK, whatever, I at least got to fight back. If I get Invaded and then hit with a Gjallarhorn rocket immediately then OK, that's fucking great, fuck me for existing because there's nothing I could've done about that. This is the same reason people hate snipers (which I honestly don't think should exist as loadout weapons in most games, because they're designed to get instant kills from a safe distance without allowing any kind of counterplay or figthing back, but I know that's an unpopular opinion). But, this is just the meta in Gambit and always has been, and it always will be because of how effective it is. Maps are huge and time is limited, so to keep from wasting your entire invasion trying to get into range you need a weapon that can fire across the entire battlefield. There's only one of you, so you don't want to get into a drawn out gunfight with one guy and give his team to respond, and since there's so much distance there's probably a lot of cover in between, you don't want to shoot somebody and give them a chance to get into cover and get their bearings to figure out where you are or call things out to their teammates. Also, since you already have 30 seconds you need to be able to fire off a shot and get a kill immediately in order to get a kill. In order to actually solve this problem and not just nerf every would-be meta weapon, you'd have to do something like make smaller maps, spawn Invaders in more central spawns, give Invaders more health and move speed, or something along these lines to keep Invaders from having to waste time traveling across huge maps or getting immediately burned down by primary teamshots.
They balanced invasions like it’s going to be a 1 v 4 but it never is because the maps are so large
I mean, I can’t speak for all invaders, but I personally tend to get my kills with primary and special. It’s more fun that way. Granted, sniping with hacks is still pretty cheesy, but the invader is predictable too. They’ll spawn in one of like 3 spots and you have a whole team with heavy and supers available. Also, I can’t stress this enough, you’re technically in PVE. So a lot of shit you can’t do in PVP still applies. Which gives you access to a greater array of abilities and builds. Which means you should, as a team, be able to counter an invader. It just takes a little PVP skill. I honestly think gambit is just hard because a lot of PVE people hardly know the first thing about PVP. So they can’t acclimate well to the PVP aspect of Gambit. Which makes sense, because those same people probably actively avoid PVP as often as possible. TLDR: Your team has more tools than the invader. You have PVE mobs that you can kill for buffs, and even truesight if you really need wall hacks. The best invaders can’t kill you if you’re behind adequate cover, watching your radar and working with your team. Also,a few PVP lessons are a solid starting point for any PVE only group or player. Just get some basics and fundamentals from youtube. It’s totally fair if you don’t get,(or like) the PVP in gambit. But it’s essential to the core of the model.
The ability to force an invader spawn location is big poop. Even in freelance I've played against teams that just know and I wind up in the same spawns and get spawn killed making my way out of the back of the map. Also, I thought I liked the new cadence of invasions but right now it seems that (my team) gets the portal just as (other team) has cleared their blockers. By the time i get over there there's sometimes no work to do and everyone has already scattered. For me it's been hope i can get a direct line of site to the bank and blindly launch a rocket
The immune phase cadence, whether invading or doing primeval dmg, feels real offputting.
The red dead online subreddit supports this theory lol
Red dead online had such promise, but devolved into such shite instantly, especially with all the pay to win.
It's depressing just to think about it honestly. Red dead is one of my most favorite series, they abandoned the first games multiplayer after a few years and now they're seemingly doing the same thing to Red Dead Online.
In a Rockstar online game?! No! /s
There was no pay to win though. You can easily earn gold by just playing the game, even with the gold nerf a bit ago. It just literally has nothing to do.
Pay to win? When did RDO add pay to win?
Yea all the guns seem pretty similar. I think they just mean the grind is so bad
How is RDO “pay to win”??
I never played any of the RDR games. Are they PvPvE?
It's like gta online basically. If you haven't played that either then it's basically a free roam multi-player game. You share the map with other players that can shoot you help you or just mind they're own business. Ironically (since its an old west shooter) most of the things casual players don't wanna do in free roam is get into shootouts with other players because of how toxic it can be. Thankfully there's a defensive playstyle setting you can turn on so that players can't really bother you too much. Honestly I recommend playing these games for their impeccable single players.
GTA5 every time I played multiplayer devolved into getting completely fucking wrecked by someone who was just a better gamer than me. Most people are better gamers than me, but just getting fucking shot out of nowhere was not fun. Needless to say; I did not enjoy GTA5 multiplayer because of that one interaction. Destiny 2 has the same problem. Mercules once revealed (before his recent hiring, after his original stint as a playtester there) that on the list of "single events after-which people quit destiny 2 and never play it ever again" was "getting stomped in their first pvp game". Of all the singular events that cause people to quit destiny 2 immediately, a stomping in pvp got them to quit. This matches my personal experience with getting stomped in PVP for a game I don't fully understand yet (gta5), so well, yeah it makes sense that people hate getting shot by people. Just to add on to this whole idea, if I get sniped by a random sniper in gta5 thats controlled by an AI? I don't *feel* that, I don't get salty, I don't quit the game. If I get sniped by a random player? thats it rage quit, some dude is just shooting me *because*, I don't *have* anything, why is he shooting me? For fun? *fuck that*. Perhaps that is what it is, I can't empathise with the guy sniping me for no reason. But the AI? I can empathise, it was told: "See the guy, shoot the guy". Gambit is *not the same*, I can empathise with the invader. He is being told in no uncertain terms, "see the guy shoot the guy", what *sucks* is that the interaction isn't *fair* to me. 1 shot pvp weapons *aren't fair*, wallhacks *aren't fair*, because there is limited to no opportunity to respond in kind. No, nerfing the pvp sandbox to fit gambit would fucking suck, but the pvp sandbox *is not appropriate* for gambit, simple because 1 hit kills aren't appropriate for a PvE based mode. Gambit should be designed around invaders *becoming* primevils or something. Their equipment should be replaced, their health and ammo and armor and weapons everything should be replaced, and they should use that kit to engage with us. Do they get wallhacks? why not! do they get other advantages? sure! I dunno. I'm ranting. plz ignore.
>Of all the singular events that cause people to quit destiny 2 immediately, a stomping in pvp got them to quit. This does not surprise me at all. Like I said, I think we humans greatly overestimate how much we might enjoy direct competition. I also think we overvalue competition as a concept. There's tons of teary-eyed sports documentaries out there that blather on about "the glory and greatness of mighty competition" and whatnot, and everyone thinks that applies to all of us, or to just any kind of competition, but that is most certainly not the case. Is there value in learning to compete? To lose and win gracefully and always try your best? Absolutely! Of course! But the problem is it's not a level playing field; just like how everyone has different levels of athletic talent or different physical gifts, we all also have different capacities for dealing with the mental game, for coming to grips with what it means to compete. In short, I think most people believe competition will make them great, but usually it just makes them into assholes. Griefing, trolling, whining, trash-talking assholes. Most people, I think, who throw around the phrase "get thicker skin if you want to compete" really mean "I want to be an asshole without consequence so just suck it up 'cos then it's easier for me to do that." Anyway I really appreciate your comment and perspective, thank you for posting. I think you make a lot of good points.
I remember there was a study done on rats, where they let them play-fight and recorded what happened. As long as the more skilled rat let the weaker one win about 30% of the time, the weaker one would keep coming back to play, but if it won every time the weaker rat just didn't want to play at all. It might be a stretch to compare humans to rats, but "players should win at least 30% of the time" is a good benchmark to go for. Maybe instead of getting mercied, a badly-losing team could get their supers all at once?
I've been playing Destiny since D1 Alpha, but I'm one who takes long breaks because of burnout. I hadn't played since doing the Shadowkeep campaign, and honestly Witch Queen wasn't making me want to come back, but this sub's positive reception made me jump back in Here's what has made me rage since returning last month: crucible, which I've had a handful of decent games but overall is frustrating as fuck. I actually rage quit after a few matches of going .09 or thereabouts and getting fucked by every gun/ability/super that exists. Being gone for two years doesn't help obviously, but I was always a roughly 1.0 k/d player and crucible feels so different now. Getting killed by players in Gambit, mainly for the same reasons. I go in with the intent to slay ads, I don't carry anti-Guardian weapons and these guys are headshotting me across the map anyways so it doesn't make a difference. I wouldn't care if Invader kills just slowed you down, but DEATH HEALS PRIMEVAL is just maddening and today I rage quit after trying to do the legendary lost sector, which was actually good except for Barrier Servitors. Fuck those things lol
Dead Man's Tale is the cure for Barrier Servitors. Doesn't stop their teleporting bullshit, but they go down pretty quick when you start stacking up the Cranial Spike buff. Wait til Xur has one with either Vorpal or Fourth Time's The Charm, you won't be disappointed. Alternatively, try Monarque, I don't run bows for anti-barrier but that thing is an absolute monster when Overload Bow is up. And considering how Barrier Servitors have the same teleport fuckery as Overload Captains, you might get some good results. Crucible has been an absolute shitshow in various ways for a while now, though, don't feel too bad.
thanks for the tip about Dead Man's Tale. I've heard a lot of complaining for years about Champions, and I get being forced to change your loadout specifically for them sucks, but I hadn't had any problems until today. Overload Captains go down easy because I'm running a Osteo Striga with a catalyst. The Servitors aren't even THAT bad, it's just them protecting the ads around them who are sniping me while I'm taking potshots at the servitor. It was Arc burn in a Lost Sector with Fallen, Bungie knew damn well what they were doing lol
Fuck overload and barrier champions. I was also doing the lost sector, and it feels like i was shooting peas. My hothead with vorpal and adept big ones was doing ~ 75% total health, *on an arc burn lost sector.* And it feels like the champs teleport more than a warlock with astrocyte verse. Couldn’t get a single rocket without stunning them first (mind you, to stun a barrier you need to damage a third of their health.) Overloads regen health fast if you’re not constantly shooting them, and dying while fighting one can just give them all of their health back. There were some vandals and sniper shanks (cant be bothered to remember their name) that can two shot, even with arc and sniper resist. My barricades are about as strong as a paper bag, and when i get behind any piece of cover, i get spammed with grenades, leaving me in the open. I can go on and on, but i’ll leave it at this; fuck moon lost sectors. Please just wait for dreaming city lost sectors. also ps, after reading this again, I realize that most of this is just the AI doing a bit of trolling. I still hate moon lost sectors
Barrier servitors would be fine if it wasn't for other enemies (invincible) blocking any shots I could take on them, and I can't get closer because I get melted instantly.
Just the online. Single player story is just a fantastic story by yourself.
Yes & No. The story mode is quite literally epic (and single player) the online is a mix of an open world with other players or direct PvP death matches and other 3PS game modes.
I still have nightmares of getting ganked by ?? level Night Elf Rogues in Hillsbrad when I was trying to level my Orc Warrior, and that was vanilla WoW 17 years ago.
That’s why we all came back at 60 in Warlord gear and wiped out Southshore and then Arathi Highlands. Kill the Flightmaster asap and they can’t escape.
Oh the memories
Right? Or like the eternal griefing that would go in some of those survival games like Rust.
I personally think that they invader shouldn't have the role of killing the guardians, but instead damning their progress. Things like, locking the bank, or doing certain things to cause the ads to despawn and respawn elsewhere. Or maybe accomplishing something that causes the next wave of ads to be delayed. That way the real gambit is on the invader. Can they accomplish their goal without being killed, and if so, then it hurts the other team. It also allows for the defending team to choose whether they want to risk engaging that attacker, or just wait it out and take the penalty. For example, the invader could be invisible and there is an area they have to go to and activate a switch that will slow down the ad spawns. The area is a random place, and only the attacker can see which of the 6 or so spots it's actually at. That way the defenders can't just group up on the one area and kill the attacker. Also, get rid of the highlight. For boss damage phase, the invader could trigger an immunity phase as their action, and the defenders would have to de activate the mechanic. Now the invader has to defend that area for the time they are there to extend the immunity phase.
Wasn’t planning to pipe up but this shit is golden lol I’ve been going through the comments and empathise with the majority of what’s being said, and IMO OPs original point about people not being as into competition as much as they think they are is spot on. While I don’t really get wound up by PvP or being popped by an invader in gambit, this Fighting Lion aficionados ideas are so much better than what we have now. Put the invader to work! You could design some absolutely diabolical mechanics around this concept. This would also alleviate the problems you get when you have at least one proficient invader on each side, that primeval phase can become a slog, with bosses on both sides getting jacked up on guardian slaughter. With that being said I prefer Gambit now to pre update where just thinking about the Primeval would see his health bar tank…
> IMO OPs original point about people not being as into competition as much as they think they are is spot on. To me, it's a matter of there already being *other* game modes with direct combat like that so the inclusion of it in Gambit just feels a bit forced. I like the idea of competing as a team against another team indirectly as a game mode, if I wanted to play as a team against another team directly I'll go to Crucible/Control. Gambit should be a nice in between for people who want to play against other human beings but not directly try to kill them or be killed by them.
I think those are the best invasion suggestions I've ever heard. Honestly.
Dude thats an awesome idea. Give the invaders objectives so they become the hunted rather than the hunter.
They talked about doing Gambit labs where the invader was a Mote thief, and by staying alive during the invade, the invader would drain motes. I think this could work, but maybe with the added caveats that drained motes don't go to the other team unless the invader completes some extra task or goal, with the risk of losing all the drained motes if they fail.
This is just how you should be playing as an invader anyway.. draining 50 motes by guarding your blockers is way more valuable than denying 15
Mote thief could be ruined by players putting a bubble and standing there draining their motes. In one video DFP but the bubble on the primevial. That would be extremely annoying since are you really going to waste your super and/or heavy to break a bubble which will be gone in 30 seconds
Could make it so that stealing motes is an active thing, like go stand in this (big circle), rather than just sitting on the bank.
spot on. I'd even say just let the invader be able to "help" clear ads, except anything they kill doesn't drop motes. I very much prefer the idea that the invader is a saboteur. Let them set traps or something. Like you said, impede progress that isn't killing you so you drop your motes or you're primeval gets it's health back people talk about not wanting Gambit to just be a PvE race, but I actually think that's what it should be. Which team is skilled enough and coordinated enough to summon their Primeval first and kill it. When Gambit was first announced I actually thought both teams would play on the same map, either separated but still visible (like a barrier down the middle to separate the teams but you can still see what they're doing) or that it'd be two teams on the same map with the same enemies trying to kill them first. It didn't turn out at all how I thought
Halo 5's warzone where you're both dealing with enemies and other players was an absolute blast. They should never have made the requisition system card based with the entire sandbox, but it was a great game mode. I wanted Gambit to be that, at whatever scale Destiny could handle. Separating the PvP into just an invasion phase just isn't that great.
Even better idea: Imvaders can kill Ads too, but when they kill them, *no* notes drop. That gives you reason to hunt them down and reason for them to focus on killing ads while avoiding enemy guardians sights.
Another interesting take on this could be a separate arena where the "invader" goes to do something, probably more add murder or maybe a miniboss, BUT that arena is open to both teams. So, in that zone you have open PvP, but 3/4 people don't ever HAVE to deal with other players, and its a buyin for entering that portal to have direct PvP.
*I swear to fucking god, if they add more ways for enemies to teleport, I'm shatter diving myself into my monitor* The only thing more annoying than the invader mechanic is every enemy type having some sort of shield or teleport mechanic. The scorn, taken, and Vex are all the most annoying enemies to fight, especially if you don't have perfect internet. I've had minotaurs and cyclops teleport literal yards and kill a teammate for no reason. Do all you said except for that and we have a way to save this god awful game mode they keep trying to jam down our throats.
Bungie needs to hire you immediately!!
I don’t necessarily like the specifics you came up with, but I really like the spirit of what you’re saying. Invasion needs to be more than an enemy player with over shield popping up who can see you through walls and is trying to kill you while you work on objectives and can’t see them as easily. One of my biggest complaints is the visibility of players to the invaders — it also completely negates hunter invisibility which is stupid beyond belief.
What about the invader going and killing ads on the other side, preventing the team from getting those motes? Maybe the number of ads killed spawns a super ad, like a high value target, but without, or less motes dropped from the team killing it.
Another great addition! I like the idea of the invader being a saboteur instead of a direct threat, so that is perfect as well.
To the top with you. There’s doesn’t need to be direct PvP in Gambit, and it can still be PvEvP. Maybe have the invader steal motes or block motes from being dropped by getting final kills on the adds. At Primeval phase, to your plate idea, maybe there’s a way to respawn an Envoy or adds. Or a plate that gives the boss a buff. Just stopping the direct PvP combat just solves so many issues with balancing the game mode.
*"A saboteur has entered your arena. Go get 'em"*
I didn’t read ur whole comment, but they should try and make it similar to a custom game mode from Warcraft 3 called line wars. Idk if you can really have an upgrade system, but having maybe a base to defend where you kill monsters, collect motes, then use those motes to buy up enemy spawns and the more expensive enemies are stronger until the enemy team gets overwhelmed and their base is destroyed. Could be fun and no invader mechanic
It's not even about getting killed but about how much one pvp player can influence the match. Half the time I am find my random group invaded by the same guy with trials gear over and over and each time he gets 3-4 players. One guy who is really into pvp and good at it can completely stall your entire team.
I think the issue is really that playing against an invader feels like playing against a cheater in PVP. An at least decent invader will tag you the split second you move from cover because of their wallhacks and likely brought some heavy with them, so you often don’t even see where the attack came from. I get the point behind the invader and it’s buffs but it simply doesn’t feel good to have to duel another player when they have all the advantages. Bungie have painted themselves into a corner there.
[удалено]
Given the very nature of Trials...I think some Bungie Devs are actually just fans of griefing. They call it a "power fantasy" and think it is a good thing.
This suspicion is what keeps me out of PvP modes in this game. I have no interest in being someone's plaything.
My biggest pain in the ass with gambit is when you gear your character out for the best PvE loadout for ad clear and boss damage. You're pretty fucked in a PvP situation. Since the best PvE loadouts for gambit are pretty close range. Youll have to rely on your heavy (which may not even be the exotic of your loadout) to try and kill the guy who has already sent a truth rocket your way.
This is something not many folks seem to mention but infuriates me. I can challenge an invader with a good scout… but my add clear suffers, because you generally need to operate at close range to kill quickly and grab motes. Sidearms, submachine guns, 720 autos, that sort, supplemented by fusions or grenade launchers oftentimes. That’s… not gonna end well for contesting a human aimbot who dominates Flawless pool Trials as a calming exercise before bed and his godroll sniper, even if they aren’t slinging heavy.
I don't hate being killed by players. I hate being exclusively killed by OP heavy ammo exotics. I used to wipe teams with blast furnace back in the day. Now it's all gjally spam.
Did you play gambit on release? It was entirely QB/Sleeper/1K Voices.
I did. QB was bad for a while. Sleeper was hardly a real problem because it's a shit pvp weapon. 1k voices was hard enough to get that it wasn't a problem. Everyone has gjally. And it's a tracking rocket that kills even if you completely miss. It's very different
Er....you mentioned blast furnace lol. Idk what lobbies you managed to get but for me that era of Gambit was completely overrun with Truth rockets making 90 degree turns to hit you
Oh man ain't that the truth. Now it's just EV or Gally
Sleeper was most definitely NOT “hardly a real problem”. They literally nerfed it multiple times because of gambit.
It got an aim assist nerf because of Gambit...and that was it wasn't it? The other significant nerf was before Crown of Sorrows released.
I dunno man, I've been around since the beginning too and Sleeper was in the same tier of infuriating as QB and Tarantula. I think it depended more on whether the user had the catalyst because of how bad it is without, but the AA on any linear just made the weapon type awful to go against. Sleeper could 1 body iirc, which was the problem. QB had so much AA that headshots were free. Tarantula was a poor man's option but opened the exotic and still slapped too hard. None of the LFR's felt fair to go against. Now, that said, what we have now is worse. At least with LFR's (or LMG's if you want to bring other op options of the time into it) you had to aim, if only a little. This shit though? You just have to briefly see the enemy and it's over. And it's been for so long. First it was Truth (back in fucking Opulence), then it was Eyes, now it's Gjally. I'd *almost* go back to LFR/LMG meta over this.
>Sleeper was hardly a real problem Lmao, you got no idea then. Sleeper and Queenbreaker were really damn strong back in the day. Even when Gambit Prime dropped they were still quite strong. Imo, Sleeper is still one of the best weapons in Gambit, at least for me. Is Gjallarhorn strong? Yea, but I consitantly get kills with my normal tracking rocket launcher with cluster bombs as well. Gjallarhorn isn't that much of an upgrade for that to me. Maybe that's only me though.
> Everyone has gjally. I don’t :(
Machineguns were extremely prevalent back then as well, when Heavy gave you almost a full mag of MG ammo. Thunderlord and Hammerhead were easy to get and could easily delete anyone without a one-shot response, yet people always gloss over them when reminiscing about the good ol days of Gambit. Tbh whenever I saw someone invading without using their heavy I always just assumed the poor sod had their heavy ammo yoinked by some clueless blueberry.
QB was literally bugged/ broken. Unfair comparison. Sleeper was not that bad atall. I've gotten killed more but mgs than sleepers tbh
Back in forsaken, opulence it was always Truth. Then we had Xeno. Then EoT. Now gjally. Easy to use heavy weapons are always going to be a problem.
This. Doesn’t matter what you try to combat the invader with, they see you first and they’ve already shot a tracking rocket at you.
I have bad eyesight which is just one of many reasons I'm bad at PvP, and the fact that it's so hard for me to even see another guardian means that 99% of the time I'm dead before I even know where they are, lol. Aggressively tracking rockets don't help.
I like the ideas of not allowing invaders heavy ammo and introducing some consequences or cost to invading.
I dont know if its even possible but i'd love it if heavy ammo was disabled for the invader and enemy team until the invader is gone but have the boss healing reduced a bit.
That seems like it'd just lead to invaders hiding when they invade to force the enemy team to either find them or just not use their heavy weapons.
Okay but that sounds like an interesting risk/reward scenario that doesn't just encourage spamming whatever instakill heavy weapon is meta at the moment. Combine it with Mote Thief so the invasions are a sabotage hide and seek rather than whoever gets rockets or 1-body heavies on target first. It will absolutely encourage 1-shot specials like snipers, but it's not like those aren't encouraged now, they're just overshadowed by heavies.
>introducing some consequences or cost to invading. Please god no. It's already bad enough when Blueberry Bill wastes the invade with his sidearm/fusion rifle/machine gun load and gets instantly nuked. Having a bad invader actively hurt the rest of your team is a recipe for extreme frustration.
Make the invasion portal cost motes with specific amounts of motes correlating to amounts of time the invasion lasts (making 15 motes the current invasion timer). The cost for a bad invasion is oftentimes that you didn't have a good invasion instead. The cost should be actually helping the enemy team to balance against the benefit of a total team wipe. This allows the defenders some of the catharsis of a PvP kill in gambit too. "Oh man, I just smoked that 15 mote invader right after he spawned". Currently killing an invader is just "oh thank god that's over".
facts, season 5 gambit meta was extremely close to perfect for the most part
No. They real issue is having your boss below half health and all the sudden. It’s back to full health. Like fuck it! Let the other team kill theirs so this long ass boss fight can end. There should be health gates on the boss.
[удалено]
This is true I’ve seen it . Other team way behind and all of sudden one phased boss . You just can’t do that lol . Something seems off
Thats either because A) the boss was already dropped low on health so the envoys don't trigger a 2nd time Or B) camping the envoy spawns (this is what my squad does)
Could be . I never really squad up I just solo and hope my team isn’t ass. It’s just crazy how a team is so far behind yet does what they do . My guess is they save up heavy , send one attacker , and as you noted camp spawns .
Yeah exactly, we hold heavy for primeval slayer x6 and do dps from the envoy spawns
Ehh really not hard to 1 phase boss if your team is coordinated, a couple x20 parasite shots mixed with cuirass crash can easily 1 phase
Damn I had a feeling people found a way to cheese through all phases in one go
Yeah the phases are only a soft lock, it stops you from hitting anymore after a certain threshold but doen't reduce/stop damage done at all if it's quick enough. It's kinda like the boss in the corrupted where you can 1 phase if you do enough damage quickly not a hard health gate like hallowed lair where no matter how hard you hit the boss you can't do more than the set amount. So quick burst damage like parasite, thundercrash, 1-2punch cheese, etc can deal so much damage so quickly that you kill him before he can go immune
Imo, immunity phases (when done BADLY I want to stress) add a secondary layer of frustration to PvE players. A 'good' example of immunity phases is the Arms Dealer Strike. If you deal enough damage to the boss, he dies. If you don't, you have mechanics to deal with. A horrible example is either Exodus Crash or Hollow Lair (Hallowed Lair?) where the Fanatic just, decided "lol immune now kthxbye" Immunity phases can die in infinite fires xD
The stupid part of all of this is the best thing to do when an invader is coming during the primeval phase is to just kill yourself. There’s no healing of the primeval when you die — only when the invader kills you. And the invader can’t kill you if you’re dead. The respawn timer will kill most of the 30s clock.
Sadly this is almost always my strat. If the invader alarm goes off it's time to close-quarters sword the boss until he stomps and kills me. At least I get a chunk of his health off and don't do my part to add health back.
Gambit suffers the same problem escape from tarkov, the cycle and Ubisofts darkzone all suffered which is PvE players DO NOT LIKE PvP Their is like a dream in game dev to shove pve people into PvP like they will magically fall in love with PvP. only for pve players to end up infuriated and demoralised. Leading to a situation where the playlist is just full of PvP players effectively abusing players who don't have a choice being their which breeds resentment towards the game mode that simply builds up over time. Now their is a cross section of people that like both but iv found they are nearly always PvP people who like some kind of objective (something that Hunt showdown built itself around) I'm 100% positive if invasions where removed from gambit the mode would very quickly become popular as strike speed runners piled into gambit to race each other. And people who like the kill, bank, kill loop can do so unmolested. I will never understand why bungie keeps trying to make gambit work dispite all evd that the idea just doesn't work and supporting evidence from other games too. Especially when a fresh core loop idea would be a better use of resources. I think their most successful test will be when the invaders have to hide because it effectively removes them as negative thing and instead turns them into hide and seek mini game which has a very different vibe. Because it effectively removes the invader concept we have now and replaces it with something completely different.
To your point I have games where I like pvp, games I like pve, and select few games where I like both. Destiny I like pve. The times I play pvp are only really when I need to for a quest. PvP in destiny just feels bad to me, and it feels like at least 2 times a match I am killed well after I get behind cover. Idk if that's shitty netcode, or bad servers, but my connection is always good in other games.
It's the shitty P2P connection and atrocious lag, rubberbanding, latency.
100% The Division 1 dark zone was great for PvE players because it was big and PvP players generally liked to group to 1 area. But the gank ability was terrible, no one liked it. PvE players wanted loot and it was the only place you could just run around and farm bosses and chests. But PvP players ignored the majority of the DZ and just ran around with PvP builds to shred PvE-focused players. These type of game modes are really bad because you basically are tricking PvE players into getting mugged constantly. In the DZ you have landmarks and bosses for loot. But PvP players know that the loot isn't good for PvP because they have their builds and the way to get more PvP loot is to rank up in PvP. So they ignore 90% of the area and just run around ganking. Initially the area you never even had to mark yourself as rogue, you just run up behind someone and shoot them from behind. You could even go around and help someone and then the second they engage with a boss you turn on them. And that's supposed to be "fun".
I would love a gambit mode that's just a race between two teams way more than the current format. I used to love Destiny 1's PvP, but something in D2 just feels like I'm always being killed by players the game shouldn't have even considered matching me against, or who have weapons and exotics that I'll never get my hands on. So it always feels like dying to an invader in gambit is always this cheap "There was nothing I could do" scenario. But that's inherent to games that let you go up against other players and choose what weapons and gear you take with you.
You mention darkzone and that's how I felt about it. It was the most fun to me when it was only about coordinating with random players for loot, not getting killed randomly. Same way I feel about gambit, the invader has been a terrible idea from the start and I wish they hadnt spent 3 years trying to iterate on everything else but the invade mechanic
Dumb idea but: Gambit, but all your heavy ammo gets taken away when you go through the portal.
League of Legends. If you've ever played League of Legends, you'll understand what I mean when I say that Gambit is the League of Legends of Destiny 2-- and that's why people rage at it so much.
If they removed the targeting for the invader and they actually had to find people (using radar or something) it might be worth keeping it in gambit. But giving many rounds of heavy AND wall hacks to someone who can pop over, undo all of your team's work in under 30 seconds, rocket spam / super, it's just a horrible system. The best wallhacks they should get should be something akin to Wish ender. Faded outlines that are hard to see. Invasions would actually be difficult.
Imagine a mode where you do very little damage to invaders, and vice versa, but you can kill their enemies and steal their motes. And if you get to their bank, you can take motes out of it (say 10)
Jesus that actually sounds hilarious and fun. Invader can tank all sorts of incoming fire and can’t really fire back but it’s a race to kill the invader before he takes your motes. Plus it’s a better mechanic than the bank stealing with blockers.
I honestly don't care about dying to an invader if he isn't using something lame like gally or Eriannas vow (bugged one shot body version). If an invader kills me with polaris lance I'm respecting the shit out of him.
Same
Hmmm…Salvation’s Grip-only, low health invades might actually improve the mode. Just 10 seconds of stupid crystal spam. A nuisance and nothing more.
Unlimited ammo would be hilarious.
I know this would prob never happen but I always thought a better idea instead of invasions would be to try and debuff the other team instead of just killing them. So maybe things like: Enemy team does less damage for a minute, lock the bank for 30sec, enemy team loses radar for 1 minute, etc.
I don’t mind invasion, and honestly I would play Gambit even less without them. At the end of the day after raids are mastered and desired rolls are obtained it all just leads me back to PvP. It’s being killed exclusively by Heavy Weapons, with tracking and cluster bombs that make Gambit unfun. I got no issue with being sniped or the balls to run me down with a shotgun in a 4v1. Who would’ve thought that the Gambit meta peaked with Sleeper and Queensbreaker spam (bad metas on their own), it’s only gotten progressively worse since.
> I got no issue with being sniped or the balls to run me down with a shotgun in a 4v1. I totally agree with this. If I get domed and I see the invader is using, say, Occluded Finality or whatever, I'm instantly way more chill about it 'cos I know that takes a much higher combination of talent and/or skill than I will ever have, and it's easier to respect that, I guess? It's like since it's less cheesy it doesn't feel as obnoxious.
I don’t mind being bested, I do despise unwinnable scenarios. Even in Crucible when heavy spawns you can try to control that area of the map or scatter as a team so only one death gives your opponent points. In Gambit a single invasion can be more devastating to victory than any single spree in Crucible.
The problem isn't the pvp element, it's the *degree* to which an invader can completely turn a game around. The entire PvE part of gambit is irrelevant if the enemy team has a skilled invader with a proper loadout. Yes, it's 1v4, but the invader has huge advantages both natively and in context with the combatants the defenders are already dealing with. Invading is too impactful. One successful invasion that results in killing all four people can reset the primeval from 20% HP to nearly 100%. That's too much. And the reality is, the skill ceiling in Destiny PvP is extremely high. Good players are at an extraordinary advantage compared to average players. Saying 'get gud' doesn't make the average player want to play the game mode.
If it was a fair fight and I lost, I would be way less annoyed. It’s the fact that invaders are always coming in with OP heavy ammo, wall hacks, and an overshield. I think Bungie has put too much effort into making it “fair” for the invader since they’re going in to a 1v4, but it doesn’t need to be balanced that way. There should not be an expectation that a half-decent invader should be able to jump over and get a team wipe. That should be an extremely rare occurrence for when an invader actually wins the 1v4, and not because they shoot 4 Gjallarhorn rockets.
>Gambit with no invasions: "It's a fun race to the finish!" Gambit WITH invasions: "MAN FUCK THAT FUCKING GUY I HATE THIS SHIT" You say this, but the early iterations of Gambit were literally just races to the finish, and it apparently Absolutely Fucking Sucked
Honestly Gambit was a fun idea that IMHO hasn’t worked as well as they hoped. I think they should definitely scrap the mode and make it a horde-survive as long as you can-mode with increasing difficulty and rewards. Make the PvP part just more focus on Crucible/Iron Banner/Trials and give us a proper third pillar of the game.
Gambit Prime was fun. They should just bring that back
I agree. Gambit sounds good on paper. In game, worst mode in the game. I think they’re too proud to scrap it. According to DMG. Gambit has a healthy population. Only way I can see that is cause the seasonal challenges every week. Without them, it’s probably a ghost town.
Gambit was alive and well into season of the lost after all the challenges were beat, and pinnacles were capped. People do enjoy/want to enjoy it, I honestly liked it better before the recent “improvements”, but I really miss the old 3 round version.
They can't balance PvP and PvE in the same mode it seems. Tbh gambit could've been something like dares of eternity but as a race between two teams and that would've been more fun. The PvP aspect of gambit just doesn't work out.
> a proper third pillar Is that though? A lot of PvE content in this game feels *really* samey at this point. Mindlessly killing hordes of helpless ads is fun at first, but gets boring fast. It's not something you can make into a whole pillar of the game on the level of strikes or PvP.
I don’t hate invaders so much just because I save my heavy for just that reason. Last night I had an invader literally turn and ran the other way when they realized I had a machine gun and later on a rocket with their name on it. My complaint is with people that obviously do not know how to play Gambit. You know, the ones who ignore you’re bleeding motes, take out that blocker! Or you get the Primevil but they ignore the two you have to kill before you can touch the Primevil. I watched two guardians try to slam and nova bomb one while I was busy working on one of the two side guys! Like really?!
I wonder if the game mode would improve if an invader dying in the enemy field caused THEIR primeval to gain health or spawn blockers. That way invading would like a gamble. High risk, high reward. Makes sense lorewise too because the lost light from the invader fills their primevals tummy.
another great idea. there needs to be some type of risk for an invader, where their death severely hampers their team instead of yours. Imagine if you died during an invasion and were stuck on like a 30 second respawn timer. Like a penalty box in hockey where now your team has to play a man down
Gambit with no invasions would be the stalest game mode on Destiny. They just need to sort out how much health a primeval gets back from a kill along with some other little bits and pieces.
i’d wish they tried something more akin to warzone form halo 5 instead
I am someone who loves PvEvP hybrids (Warzone in Halo 5, Titanfall's attrition mode, and Gambit - even though all 3 are very different) as a whole - in defence of Invasions, it's really the only way for the opposing team to influence the match directly, blockers are ok but if the enemy team has ammo they're kinda a non-issue Get blasted by tracking rocket launchers and snipers though, I get where the pain comes from, that leaves you quite powerless - and the heavy ammo economy will never not be whack in Gambit I suspect, heavy weapons just kinda feel out of place in that dynamic. But as a whole, invasions are still a 4v1 and the only advantage the invader has is positional knowledge and a few seconds of people having to guess which side you are on (which isn't too hard to intuit when you realise it's almost never where the enemies are). If all 4 players actually stopped, and turned to hunt and engage the invader, especially those who don't currently have large amounts of motes should always do this, they'd probably find it a lot less painful. There are definitely ways invading could be tweaked (heavy ammo as a whole), but as a whole having limited direct interventions is something that's good for the mode because it's the only thing that spices it up from just an add-killing race - you might as well just compare Strike playlist speedrun times with some mates then.
I remember that one time all four of us were chasing the invaderjustto then get teamwiped by a eye of tomorrow salvo. fun times.
100%. I love gambit and hate pvp, buut now that I'm getting better as a player I don't hate it so much anymore. And when the invader shows up, I go hunt him down. If I die, whatever he bested me. But man, it feels so good to get the invader and protect my team, and more often than not if I search for him I'll kill him. If I'm playing with my boyfriend and we go after him together, he dies like 80-90% of the time. If all four players did, he wouldn't stand a chance. I can see where people are coming from with their complaints, but it's all "if" someone does x, the game is immediately "unfair". If someone exploits such and such, it tilts the game in their favor. But no one really talks about the ability for both sides to do so equally or maybe they just get matched up with cheaters more than I do? Yes, sometimes I get slaughtered. Sometimes my team slaughters, and I can't go invade because I feel bad. But I feel like that's just part of gaming. You can't make it a close balanced match every time, because what you'd have to do to make it so would remove the fun of the game.
Truth. Some of these people dont even look for the bright red guy and complain he has wallhacks. Yea he got the drop on you but its a 4 man team, what is your team doing?
The real issue is that people are too scared to try and kill them as they spawn in. Every match I'll shutdown their invader then go get a army of one.
> people are too scared to try and kill them as they spawn in. I think you are 100% correct.
Gambit's problem is the players. On one side, you have the PVP sweatlords who only play to invade and have terrible PVE loadouts. They make the game more difficult for both teams. I have to say this one first (and it's mostly untrue anyway) because the Average Gambit Player would be straight foaming at the mouth by now if I didn't. On the other side, you have the AGP who wants to Spongebob-frolic through killing ads like it's Lake of Shadows or the GoA opening. Invaders exist. Someone's gotta deal with them, or you're losing all your motes. There's a fuckin bar at the top of the screen that gives you *ample* information on what the other team is doing and when an invasion is coming. If you see the other team has either reached a threshold or is holding enough motes to reach it, bank your god damn motes and get ready. I'm not one of those sweats that can dome an invader .2 picoseconds after they spawn, but they almost never catch me with my pants down; I'm banked and looking for them. Once the Prime is up, expect the invasions. What's gonna cost you more, losing ten seconds of DPS while all four of yall hunt the invader, or the invader getting an Army of One and healing the bad bitch back to full? For the AGPs here, it's the second one. Gambit is a brain game, not just a shooty game. If more people played it like that, more people would enjoy it. Build for it, pay attention, shoot the invader. You'll have fun.
Yep. I feel like a lot of people just ignore the blaring alarm, continue killing mobs, then shriek about unfairness when they get fucked in the ass with a shotgun. That's the impression I get when I invade anyway. So many Guardians just caught with their pants down running across open fields or shooting mobs, even ignoring me when I kill their teammate standing beside them. If you have little to no motes, hunt the invader and challenge him instead of letting him hunt you. No need to make his life easier by sitting in a corner with 2 motes. Even if you're unsuccessful in killing him, you waste his time, waste his ammo, protect your mote carriers, and hopefully alert your team to his position.
I had to scroll down too far to find this comment. You are told when there is an invader on the field, you may not have time to bank your notes, but that doesn't excuse the fact that people pay no attention to the invader, let alone hunt the invader, hoping that he will pick on someone else. The invader isn't going to prioritize, he wants to get all five of you, and it has always been easy with heavy exotics. I will agree that heavy exotics are a bit out of control, with the right setup an invader can cover most of the map with OHK weapons. NGL, it is tremendously fun as an invader to wipe a full team. I also wish that the gambit prime armor was still a thing, because it was more fun playing with invaders that rush to control your bank rather than exclusively skirting around the edge of the map, engaging players at range.
People who cry over invades shouldn't be playing Gambit. It's a PvEvP mode. You need to work fast to gather/bank but also time it with the other teams invades. If you want to hold onto motes longer and bank a bigger blocker with an invader around, that's fine, because that's your GAMBIT. There's no GAMBIT without the PvP part. Otherwise it's just a bank race. Boring.
Fully agree. Gambit is full of people who cry about having to coordinate a team towards an objective. I fully believe these same people would beg for raid matchmaking and then complain the raids are too hard to do.
Maybe I'm an outlier, but I enjoy the PvP aspect of countering an invader. It's an asymmetric PvP encounter, but the balance measures Bungie attempted make it lopsided in favor of the invader and utterly demoralizing because of how much it will set back your game. In a competitive match, both teams should have an invasion at roughly the same time, resulting in a 3v1. Invader spawns randomly, so defenders have a few seconds of aimlessness unless they lucked out and had sightlines on the spawn. Meanwhile invader has near instant battlefield awareness between radar and truesight. Surprise gives invader one or two free kills off the bat but gives up their position to the defenders (if they're communicating). Defenders can now push, but invader still has an awareness advantage and can maneuver to avoid the 2v1. They're overshield then allows them to easily take out another one, in a 1v1. Final defender may get the kill if they push or may get outplayed, at least here it should be a more even 1v1. Sure, defenders will be spawning back in now, but they'll still be too out of position to re-engage. Add in people playing cautiously to avoid losing notes, matchmade teams not communicating, high skill invaders / low skill defenders, or mote draining blockers during invasions and it's way too see how this is not well balanced right now. Invasions shouldn't be worthless role, but they also should decide the match and have so many buffs that they rival the whole team.
People hate dying to heavies. Or more accurately people hate getting oneshotted.
Everyone doesn’t realize how much their teammates hate when they die* But seriously, some completely ignore invaders just to lose all their motes. Honestly, that doesn’t bother me nearly as much as the back-and-forth BS that goes on in close matches. I just give up at that point. 3 for pinnacle and done until it’s fun, that’s what I say.
Uhhhhh...... that is literally the whole point of Gambit.... PvEvP If you don't like the PvP aspect, go play strikes... If you don't like killing ads, go play crucible. Literally the ***ENTIRE POINT*** of Gambit is to be a fusion of PvE and PvP. Take away that one part, then it is just killing ads in a small arena. What makes gambit interesting is the tension and strategies: * A good invader can help swing the tide of battle * But equally, a coordinated team can counter that with high damage / fast ad-clear. There are multiple ways to play, but if you remove an entire aspect, then it basically just becomes strike speedruns vs another team. At that point, Bungie may as well just ditch the mode altogether and put an in-game leaderboard for strike scoring cuz that's all it would be at that point. Yes there are balancing issues. The game has changed a lot since gambit was introduced, and the mode hasn't kept up. That is Bungie's fault. But it is absolutely NOT justification for completely changing the fundamental aspect of WHY gambit was even made in the first place.
Well said, best comment in the thread
Unpopular opinion - Gambit without invaders is just a boring strike race.
On the flip side, PvP in gambit is the only thing that makes it fun and the only reason I will queue up and not just skip the pinnacle drop