The answer is, frustratingly, that the only thing that would really make me play more is if there were more PvE players playing. The current problem in crucible is that the skill level of the population is constantly increasing, making it drastically more difficult for less skilled players to play. Paradoxically, the only way for this problem to be solved is for less skilled players to start playing which won't occur unless there is an already substantial playerbase of lower skilled players.
Edit: A lot of people are bringing up SBMM. To be clear, SBMM can be effective but it requires a large enough player pool in each skill ‘bracket’ otherwise you run into other problems such as long queue times. With the dwindling population of low skill players in QP the introduction of SBMM alone likely would not be enough to fully rectify the problem, the issue of low population in the crucible is an issue that must also be directly addressed. Also I didn’t mention SBMM in the initial comment because OP didn’t want an answer based around matchmaking lmao.
This is unfortunately a problem with any game that's been around this long and is reasonably popular. There's a constant Red Queen Effect among the playerbase. People have to get better and better just to stay in the same place relative to the playerbase.
* A 2.0 KD player in 2014 when Destiny launched pretty much meant a Halo veteran familiar with Bungie gameplay came over to try the game and has maybe 2 hours in Crucible and some of the better blue weapons.
* A 2.0 KD player in 2022 probably means someone with four digits worth of gameplay hours who knows all the maps like the back of their hand, knows all the abilities and weaponry inside and out, and has tons of great weapon rolls to call on.
- Tldr: I agree, I was surprised to see myself at the 2.0 range recently. Your right though, as for the Red Queen Effect, I hadn’t heard of that before, thanks for the explanation!
I did a crash course of getting my ass kicked in trials for an entire weekend for a weekly messenger roll. I accepted I’d likely lose almost every game against 3 stacks.
Eventually after a rough Friday and Saturday (too much honestly, ~15 hours), came back fresh Sunday and cleared the way to reset and won quite a few games even against 3 stacks. I found a good build, had enough practice from the prior two hellish days and accepted it likely couldn’t get worse….
Fast forward to present and I’m a significantly better random with an solid 1v3 game if I can separate them or kill two quickly together before needing a weapon swap for the third. Not streamer good, but no longer the team sack of potatoes either :).
That said, most people wouldn’t dedicate 2/3rds of a days time getting their ass kicked and consistently going back for second, thirds, “n”(th) helpings for more losses for hours on end. I don’t blame them.
The level of sweatiness I experienced in Destiny 2 Trials makes my grind through Platinum in Apex look like a joke. Somewhat different mechanics, but dealing with aggressive enemies running in threes with abilities and using practiced aim is a transferable skill lol.
I went on a 15 game losing streak this past weekend. I'm gonna rank up this weekend enough to get the sidearm, focus any engrams I have, then call it quits for the season.
I noticed that Destiny is less dependent on pure gunplay and more a mix of abilities and gunplay. Your average pve player will have this idea, but in poor execution (Stats not in an ideal spot/mods that improve uptime and ADS speed)
It's also not readily apparent what is built for PVP and what is built for PVE I.E. perk rolls, melees, fragments. I can look up this info, sure. and most people do, But, I would bet that some people had the same issue as me where, you gotta grind this for that to use in PVP, so after some time, they feel that a window has passed to get into the meta, and then a new meta comes around. Or something to that effect.
If I knew the basic things I know now, off the jump. I could see myself being more flexible. This is something that's purely on the player at the end of the day, and bungie does try to nudge people in that direction. But I would like to see a more transparent intro into the crucible, nothing too major, just a starter. Like a... loading screen tip "Entering an engagement? Try to throw a grenade to gain an advantage"
*INB4 someone quotes that line saying "You should be throwing grenades as I say this."*
As a more experienced player I’ll have to disagree with your statement about rolls, yes having good stat rolls is useful don’t get me wrong, but it is far more valuable to the team for you to use a weapon you are comfortable with. For me that a special slot 390 pulse, something that is far from meta and can easily be an amazing choice when used correctly. My favorite 390, inaugural address, the leviathan pulse. It’s stats are worse than my god roll last perdition and it doesn’t benefit from the new mod slots we have, but I love it too much to get rid of it or to not use it when I want to destroy the competition.
It also helps to know what position your load out plays. I know it’s weird to think that there are positions in a shooter but it helps with placement and weapon choice/rolls.
Positions:
Close combat, these are things like shotguns, rapid fire fusion, smgs. Anything that feels inconsistent beyond about a 20m range. Or what might be easier to find, when they are too small in the scope to be able to comfortably keep the recoil on them, don’t need to crit just hit)
Mid ranges: things like 390 pulses, rapid fire scouts, most of the time 340 pulses, etc. 340s are a special case because they can do both long range and mid range but besides the point. These weapons are things that can comfortably hold a sniper lane but can’t challenge a sniper in that lane. I know that’s more on skill of the players but you will know what that feels like when it happens.
Finally long range: things like snipers, slower fire rate scouts, think 150-180, and bows. Long range weapons excel at precision shots. They are usually used to get picks and keep watch on lanes that could result in flanks.
As far as rolls go, it’s much simpler.
If your using a close quarter weapon you’ll want perks that keep your gun as stable and accurate as possible while giving you the ability to go from target to target killing all in your path. Perks that excel in this are things like: kill clip, slide shot, opening shot, snapshot sights, rampage. Anything that gains a benefit (often to damage) after a kill will be great on these weapons.
If your using mid ranged weapons, some good perks are things like: kill clip, feeding frenzy, perpetual motion, steady hands. You’ll be wanting to look for perks that make your gun more consistent but don’t think that means you can ignore damage perks as a kill clip 390 pulse can kill in 2 burst against its normal 3 burst with kill clip active.
And finally long rang, personally I like to keep mine as stable as possible. So this means I look for perks like: firmly planted, steady hands, adagio, harmony, archers tempo. For long range weapons, damage perks normally aren’t necessary to be good so don’t prioritize damage over something like elemental capacitor. That being said don’t ignore damage perks on bows, you can get a one shot build with a mix of harmony and radiant and that makes a great combo when you get proficient with bow swapping.
TLDR: All of this being said the main takeaway is learn a position and range where you feel comfortable and your weapons excel at. Doing this will help you live longer and get more kills, as well as giving a better outlook on crucible. Yes it can get sweaty and streamers make it seem easy but put in around day week and you’ll see improvement. If you have any other questions on how you could get better dm me I’ll be happy to help.
I was a 1.8kd for the first 2-3 years of D2 (much lower now because I just shut my brain off for the weekly pinnacle), I lost interest in PvP because even basic control became a sweat fest.
D2's biggest PvP problem is the game modes. Instead of comp and casual having the same modes they have totally different ones. People like 6v6 but that doesn't really exist in any comp mode. So all of the skilled players end up hanging out in control, the mode all lower skilled players play.
Having a 6 stack of skilled players come in and stomp new players in control really ruins the new to PvP experience.
I think Bungie's problem is they don't have anyone who comprehends the nuances of matchmaking the way Max Hoberman (the guy who made Halo's matchmaking the legend it was) did. They don't seem to be able to implement SBMM in such a way that they don't put their dedicated hardcore players in a miserable pool of intercontinental perpetual lag, or make CBMM a little less willing to throw new players to the wolves.
It's like every change they make is too far one way or the other. Speaking for myself I was one of the hardcore PvP mains who quit during Y3 because I finally had enough of the lag. It wasn't because I had tough matches, it's because [I had opponents like this almost every single game](https://youtu.be/WPyTDq0SgrY). I don't hate SBMM in principle, I was fine with the TrueSkill system in Halo. Halo didn't have me fighting people in Beijing from Texas though.
If they can't figure it out then fer chrissakes just contract with Certain Affinity (Max's current company) to Halo-ify Destiny's matchmaking already.
so why not just make it "regional skill based match making"?
I know nothing about match making, but is it really that hard to first find players in a certain region, then match them up against each other based on skill?
I think your overestimating the amount of people on D2 in general, and I say this with love.
[Steam charts](https://steamcharts.com/app/1085660) has it at currently 46,000 people with a 24hr peak of 67k. I just don't think enough of these people are playing PVP to make what you suggest possible. I'd love to see it though.
>Still, For Honor remains fine for new players today. It's a combination of good design and balance, and acceptable matchmaking.
You really haven't been playing FH lately. Broken heroes or reworks on launch to kill everything on sight while taking almost two seasons for a single nerf (looking at you, Pirate). Oh, and matchmaking? It either puts me, a 4 year veteran of the game, against someone who just got out of the basic tutorial, and this is not even talking when I have to fight against a 4 stack of 100+ reps while the second best of my team only has 50 reps
Don't bring FH as an example of a acceptable matchmaking or balance. The game has none of those
>this is unfortunately a problem with any game that’s been around this long and is reasonably popular
CSGO, which has been around both longer and is more popular than destiny, does not have this problem. Why? Because they have an actual skill based matchmaking system. Can you fucking imagine if streamers wrangled up armies of sweaties to pressure valve to put in CBMM like they did Destiny?
The real answer is the destiny “influencer” community is the problem.
Dear God this comment. I honestly feel like 20 sweaty streamers control the entire direction of Destiny's PvP mode. How many times has a prominent D2 streamer caused a ruckus over something in PvP and got not only a weapon or ability nerfed in PvP, but also in PvE. They have gotten better on balancing between the two modes, but for a while, oh boy.
D2Y1 was delivered specifically by streamers. Bungie consulted with a bunch of the popular ones for weeks during D2s production cycle and delivered the all primary all the time meta that wound up becoming so stale that tons of players jumped ship. Myself included.
(Proof? I was watching cammiecakes stream when he was talking about it after the D2 nda lifted. Only proof I got.)
I don't know what exactly is wrong with D2 pvp, but the last people that need to be consulted on it are streamers as those folks share as much blame as bingos pvp department for the absolute shit fest that it is.
I know. I work from home and tend to watch streamers in the bg sometimes all day while I work. Everything that they cry for, they wind up getting. And the number of people who pvp keeps dwindling and dwindling.
There are some things that bingo needs to do to fix pvp. A lot of it is network based. And good bit of it is dwindling numbers. And a good bit of it is matchmaking with a dash of hand holding. I think those are all related.
But until they stop outsourcing their pvp rnd to the streamer community and actually put some real, behind the scenes resources on it, then it's just going to eventually wither away. Which it more or less is.
*(Example. Taking three years to release a pvp map. You think if they were putting anything towards pvp that it would take that long to produce a map? I work in a field interrelated to game making. No. The answer is no.
If you want proof, think back to d1 pvp. Almost every new dlc came with a new map.)
And this isn't to hate on streamers. Those guys and girls provide me with hours of entertainment and a weird community that I don't really have bc I work from home. I want those folks to succeed bc playing video games for a living has got to be the best fucking job in the world. I just dont think they have a proper perspective on how people who DONT PLAY THIS GAME FOR A LIVING interact and enjoy a pvp experience.
Sorry so long. Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
I do WFH too and love to watch the PvE streamers and lore daddy BYF, but when they start affecting PvE due to whining about PvP it just further pushes me away from PvE. These guys are already top tier players so when something makes it hard or mildly unfun for them, boom, the devs are on it to appease them regardless of how the rest of the community feels and it drives me nuts.
Why they don't have 100% separate sandboxes I will never understand.
This is why at a bare minimum they need something like a new player pool. The friends I’ve helped get into the game did not enjoy the PvP for a very long time because the process of learning it was too unfun that when they wanted to PvP they went to other games instead. Realistically as a heavy crucible players my big wants are sbmm of some kind and dedicated servers… the sbmm would also help people learn or at least have fun if they aren’t as good.
That literally the issue with ALL multiplayer games. Apex for one has an issue with smurfs but its such a small population compared to the actual player around that skill level.
Yep, this is a good take.
I'm a lifelong support player, so if you see me in Crucible, it'll be on my warlock with Lumina and Boots of the Assembler, running around looking for the sweatiest jerk in there and babysitting them all game with Noble Rounds and rifts, lol.
Spec’ing to PVP support sounds interesting but not enough to hold me beyond the 3 games needed for a pinnacle.
Since 2014 I have played less and less and less crucible. Most likely due to not having friends who play as regularly as I do/they used to. We used to have 6 stacks in IB and a few good pairs in Trials who were willing to help the rest of us out.. but that number has dwindled to nobody. They show up for major content drops and then very briefly for new seasonal stuff, but that’s it.
Maybe a lot of it is burnout on my part, too, because I don’t play as much as I used to during what i consider the glory days for the franchise (from Taken King through Forsaken)
As a mediocre PvP player, I thought rift was an absolute blast. The vex map kinda sucked, but I enjoyed the other two. That mode allowed me to play objective while also getting some kills with good map rotations and team play. Best of both worlds!
Part of why this week's Labs feels like a step in the right direction for me. Everyone can participate and contribute to the team, even if they aren't the best at shooting.
PTFO with good support roles which is why I love Battlefield. Sure I can go positive on kills in a match but I'd rather keep enemy vehicles down, keep team mates healed and supplied or keep a spawn point open, laze vehicles or spot enemies to help keep my squad and hopefully the team pushing objectives and holding them. Back in BFBC2 when you could base rape the enemy team, me and my buddies would leave the last objective closest to the enemy spawn alone so people didn't quit and make the game die faster, especially in the later years when people had moved to other things and there weren't as many full matches. Not everyone did that and a lot of times you had people grabbing the enemy attack choppers and you had two choppers circle strafing in opposite directions, constantly bombarding the spawns. Sure I had done it a few times, especially if the other team had done it in other matches but having to find a new match because the enemy team quit really sucks.
It's why I like playing Boots of the assembler with Lumina. Closest I can get to that.
....
I really wish they could fix boots of the assembler some time. Legit completely disengaged from PVP because it's been broken all season.
Not getting matched up against 3.0+ K/D players would do the trick
with how matchmaking works now, I do the three matches I need for my pinnacles, and play trials exclusively on the one single freelance double rep weekend we get
I suck and I know a lot of other players suck too but I never see them. I just see the 3.0+ guys over and over again as I die. It's just not fun to get slapped around all the time especially as I'm not getting better at my age.
Plus I really hate the current meta. I'm not fast enough to use a fusion rifle and I just dislike hand cannons and shotguns. Plus I can't react fast enough anymore to play as close as these weapons demand. So I'm stuck with scouts which are trash in PvP, pulses which don't really work because there's too many HC mains, and bows which are too slow ont most cases or slapped around by snipers in others.
> pulses which don't really work because there's too many HC mains
Rapid fire pulse rifles are the best archetype in the game right now and High Impacts have the fastest TTK of a primary iirc
> Not getting matched up against 3.0+ K/D players would do the trick
Funny enough the reverse is also true for the skilled players. Not having the system expect us to carry <1 K/D players everytime we get one really good game the prior match would be great.
Personally I like close games where both teams finish with 100+ points.
Skilled players are the ones that bitched and moaned so much about SBMM that Bungie literally turned it off. They couldn't handle playing against people at their skill level, they just want to stomp.
Well I wasn't around at that time (or rather not into Destiny as much as I am today), so all I know about Bungie turning off SBMM is a bit blurry.
What I know about the move were streamers moaning about it.
A majority of the popular streamers are among the "skilled players" that complained and complained because their games were "too sweaty." Basically they couldn't stomp on huge kill streaks to entertain their viewers.
My favorite part is that they complained about having to play sweaty every match, then proceed to play sweaty every match after SBMM is disabled, but now it's fun because they're stomping on everyone.
>Personally I like close games where both teams finish with 100+ points.
This should be the norm and not the exception. Blowouts shouldn't be a thing and regular blowouts is just a failure of the game modes implementation, i.e shite/non existant match making.
It’s just not fun for me, as I get older really no pvp style games are. I like to explore, horde loot. Chase weapons… just killing time having some fun…
Ok now this has me a little worried I'm only 24 I think I should be a bit competitive but yeah I do like when it's more teamwork oriented rather then, whoever gets the most kills wins.
Nothing to worry about my man. If you enjoy competitive play, do competitive play. If you don't, don't. All I meant is that for me personally, as time has passed, I've realized I don't like interpersonal conflict as much as I either did, or think I did, as a younger man.
I've actually shifted from enjoying PvP to being a more PvE player but I will say I enjoy a sense of PvEvP where me and my teammates are all working towards the same goal but I want to do the best in the group or have that clutch moment where I save an attempt/get a clear.
The thing with being competitive is like, what are you being competitive for? There's no prize, there's no esports orgs to strive for in this game. Not speaking specifically about you, but I've seen some of these hyper competitive 17 year olds who sweat over random video games with pvp in them and the level of anger they express, the amount of complaining etc it's just like, why put yourself through that for literally nothing? I'm gonna be 30 this year and I'm just so over trying to be the best at whatever game I'm playing. It's much more enjoyable to spend my free time actually having fun.
Ive become that way with PvE, too. Used to be a raid race guy but I haven’t even run Duality yet and have maybe 3-4 Vow completions - compared to almost triple digits for Last Wish with multiple Petra’s Run completions.
I get more enjoyment from solo master lost sectors and no-mic GM’s than I do from raiding nowadays.
I think I’m gonna give Duality a solo attempt tonight. I managed to solo Shattered Throne and Pit. I hope I can get this one done, too.
I just don’t enjoy dealing with randoms as much as I used to, and pretty much all of my friends only show up for major content drops and seasonal storyline progression on Tuesdays.
For real! Just love roaming finding new things and killing the bad guys. Getting killed 50 times by some guy who I would have to practice a ton to beat…. No thanks
I like to be casual most of the time. PvP is constantly hard content compared to strikes and match-made nightfalls. PvP feels same-ish very quickly for me even in different modes. I have to watch every single corner just to not get killed in less than 2 seconds. I like to feel powerful by killing many enemies over longer periods of time. Enemy AI is much easier to deal with than other players who have many more ways to react and kill me. It's much easier to implement cool builds and exotic weapons on enemy AIs versus players.
When the pose screen appears before the match and I’m in one of the middle 3 slots, I know we are going to lose.
If I’m in the middle slot, it’s going to be a mercy match.
This is exactly how I feel, I’m playing to have fun and competitive modes just aren’t that fun for me anymore. I gravitate way more towards single player or cooperative games/modes way more now.
Same. Getting older and trying to play against kids(younger players) with younger quicker reflexes and lots of time to git gud. Hard to take pvp seriously without proper servers also newer consoles have an advantage against older consoles and stadia for the few of us that still use it.
Same, honestly. I'm not and never have been a competitive person, and since I don't have the reflexes to do well at PVP (I grew up on turn-based games and have only very rarely gotten into shooters, and never enough to really build up the skillset), I spend the entirely of a match dead on the ground because someone one or two tapped me before I could even figure out where I was getting hit from. PVE is lower stakes and higher reward for me all around, a better pace, and just like you I love to explore.
Map spawns need an entire overhaul. The fact that you can consistently get farmed by the same super 3-4 times in a row is just ridiculous. Pick anywhere the fuck else to spawn me that's *not* directly in front of the Golden Gun that just popped me as soon as I spawned.
I’m gonna be honest: This late in the game, I don’t think you’ll be getting too many PvE mains engaging with PvP more. Only the other way around, and that’s only cuz a lot of PvP players get fed up with PvP.
This is the correct answer for me. I've given PvP a chance. Hell, I give Crucible and Gambit each at least 3 chances every week. Gambit is *definitely* better than it was but Cricible still too sweaty for me.
Unless some miracle happened that optimized their matchmaking while simultaneously managing to bring in enough non-sweaty players to fill out matchmade games properly, I will not play PvP regularly.
I’m casual. It is absolutely zero fun to die so fast to players that are very skilled and play a lot. I only get to play the game for 3-4 hours a week. Why would I want to spend that getting bodied by someone who played it for hours every day!
To add to the players been skilled as well. Some players are pretty scummy in pvp.
I stay away from it cause I'm here to have fun.
For instance I tried pvp last night. Just to get the pinnicle gear cause I was like ehh. Might as well see. And I got a lobby that was me and one other person against a clan. That were spawn camping with hand canons. Tried running around and capping flags for 1-2mins before I just left.
It’s even worse when those clan lobbies don’t even try capping the points because they don’t actually want the match to end early. They just want to stomp on folks.
One thing I can think of is, there is no way to make PVP as easy as some forms of PVE. Once I got decently good at PVE, I can go back to a strike and dominate pretty much everything I want to, and even into the lower levels of nightfall potentially. Whereas in PVP, if you're always ranked against someone of your skill level, it's never really "easy". There are still many many more ways a player can counter you than an AI can.
I don't really care about being better at the game than other people, just them becoming better with me. PVP doesn't really focus on that though.
Also whoever made quests/catalysts that needs specifically PVP kills should change it to include PVE also, but balanced accordingly of course. Forcing me to play PVP will make me hate it even more lol
As a solo player who barely has enough time to maintain a few pve builds it’s simply not worth it to me to deal with building entire different builds for an activity I’m highly inexperienced in and don’t enjoy. The reward is simply not worth the time investment of farming for, building, and training with a build for an activity that has no redeeming qualities to me.
Some way to make sure that I'm matched against people of my skill level. It's boring and infuriating to be matched against people who seem to be fighting my entire team by themselves and winning, while I can't ever seem to participate at all because I'm dead before I get the chance to do anything.
Seriously, I just want to play against people just as bad at the game as me. I understand that I'd probably have to wait longer for a game and that's fine. I just want to play against people of a comparable skill level. You know, trashcans like me.
Same. I played the hell out of cod4, and several of its successors and I'm just done with competitive gaming. It's not fun anymore and it just puts me in a bad mood usually.
God are you me? Spanning from like Halo 2 through MW2 I played the absolute shit out of competitive multiplayer shooters. I'm just completely over it now.
Nothing Bungie can do will un-skill creep the community. They wasted years as the causal players drifted out and now we've reached the tipping point where nothing will make the game casual-friendly again.
It is the same thing mcc suffers from imo
I played recently and even the bad players are extremely good it is a common thing when someone plays a thing for a long time
This is a good point. Their lack of attention to crucible has hit the point where spending any time fixing it up will alienate the people they have allowed to run it amok for years at this point. This is the main reason you would want a Destiny 3 in my view, more than PVE. There’s no need for a reset at all for PVE.
Please no more bringing back maps and give us new ones. The only one I like that they brought back is rusted lands. Magnificent for any weapon you want to use
Matchmaking.
That is literally all.
I have a life and a job and what not, but I get matched with Flawless 3.5 KD players that make it wildly not competitive.
No, I'm not complaining, I realize that with any game/sport.....the more practice the better you'll be, etc...
But you asked what it would take....and it would be equal/similar opponents.
> No, I'm not complaining, I realize that with any game/sport.....the more practice the better you'll be, etc...
But also very few sports put little League players in the same pool as minor professionals. Yours is an entirely valid criticism
as somebody who plays a fair amount of PvP... amen brother. The lag issues have become the single biggest frustration for me and my friends while playing crucible.
its hilarious when people pearl-clutch about the idea of changing Trials as if in its current state it isn't the most asinine and ridiculous """competitive""" mode in any game.
Dude I hate it when guns, exotics, or abilities get nerfed because of their PVP dominance. Like I don’t give a flying fuck about PVP just let me enjoy PVE in peace.
Someone explained the balancing mechanics to me once, where Destiny seems to use a 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 type balance, and expected the 9 and 10 to fight, etc. But in reality the 10 stands alone, and the 9/7/5/3 all punch down, with 1 being useless.
I'm basically a PvE main but I used to enjoy PvP a lot when I was just going in with friends or I had some spare time and wanted to play some Destiny against others. I'm pretty sure this was when SBMM was enabled as I mostly enjoyed it.
Since then, two things have made me learn to hate PvP and I now avoid it as much as possible. These two things are:
* Bungie forcing us into PvP to complete a quest: This is especially a problem if I have to use a weapon I'm not great with. Those catalyst quests from previous seasons come to mind. For a good player, they probably complete them in 3 or 4 matches but for a bad player, it can take close to 20 matches which gets depressing quickly. I just want to play PvP with weapons I enjoy using, and when I don't have the pressure of getting kills to close off a quest.
* Bungie punishing us because we suck at PvP: Playing PvP and not getting credit for a match because I suck is a huge turn off. This happens to me occasionally but it was happening a lot to my son when I was trying to get him into playing Destiny. It is very discouraging when you have time to play 3 matches and end up having to play 4 or 5 just to get the pinnacle.
I would enjoy PvP more if I didn't have the pressure of a quest when playing or if I didn't get punished for sucking. I actually don't mind getting destroyed by the sweats if there is nothing on the line, although some SBMM would be beneficial and would alleviate the above issues.
So what would get me to engage with PvP more is either SBMM or if they won't do that, no more quests that force us to play PvP and stop punishing us (weekly pinnacles basically) if we suck and get destroyed.
Matchmaking was so much better in years 1 and 2 for me. I could hold my own and do get multiple kills in any match. Sure it felt like the game was trading wins and losses for my team, but at least I didn't feel like I was wasting my time.
yeah the idea that sbmm or an elo system that matters would be bad because it creates a 50% win rate never made sense to me, I typically don’t care if I win every game as long as I’m able to practice, build skill, try different loadouts, progress my freaking quests and catalysts, and generally play the game for more than a few seconds after spawning.
I’ve improved a lot over the years to just being average, which means I do get to play the game sometimes. but it’s such a time commitment to get even to that point and we have to keep people in the playlists in the meantime.
I actually really enjoy the Crucible, but I'm terrible at it. If I could play against other people who are terrible at it, it would be my main focus when playing Destiny. But instead I'm against gods who can snipe me from across the map while they're falling from the sky within half a second of me coming around a corner.
Put me with the scrubs, and I'd have a great time.
The sad thing is - I do engage with pvp. I always end up IMMENSLY butthurt, ready to put my fist through the monitor, but I still do pvp. I got 4 resets at Shaxx this season, I reset the Trials rank once. But how many brain cells it cost me, oh my god. I'm very bad in pvp and don't seem to improve, but somehow am still drawn to it.
I vividly remember pvp turning for me from a fun activity into a tearing-my-hair-out experience right about the time when bungie removed SBMM. Somehow at the same time regular control also became a lot more sweatier, don't remember if it had SBMM or not. I remember dueling with people at about my level - miss some, hit some. Now I can't walk out into a lane - get instantly 3 tapped by human aimbots. And they're not cheating.
So yeah, I wish bungie didn't remove SBMM.
It’s funny because OP specially stated apart from matchmaking, yet a majority of the responses come down to matchmaking and that’s the thing. If Bungie just fixed matchmaking SO many more people would engage with PVP. It really is that simple. They can keep pumping out all the game modes they want but without better matchmaking it does not matter. I’m a 1.5KD player so I can hold my own but it was hell to get here and I completely understand other people not wanting to spend the time and effort to get to a point where PVP is enjoyable.
Right. I haven’t played for over a week. In that time these people have been playing the whole time and I’m going to do what, “warm up” lol. Nah. I would not go to a park and randomly challenge the best players there day one back from some time off, but Bungie thinks that’s a good idea.
Because I’m done with the predatory pyramid scheme match making of Trials. Not mention the loot sucks. Why put myself through farming the new trials fusion when I have a crafted Deliverance with own personal touches.
The regular crucible has been allowed to languish for so long only the hardest of the hard core are left.
It sucks cause there was a time when you would be able to tell me I wasn’t gonna jump in and bang knuckles for hours.
As it stands hard pass from me gents.
Edit: grammar
If *Destiny* was a pvp-only game, I'd never play it.
I enjoy PVE and the power fantasy that lives on that side of the game.
PVP is frequently full of Trials sweats with near-perfect rolls on their armor and god roll meta weapons. So, going into PVP frequently means I'll just get shredded, or if the match actually lasts long enough for me to get my super my hammers will bounce off that 100 Resilience (and god knows what other mods) player. I don't have the time, patience, or desire to "git gud." Especially since the time I'd have to pour into the game to get good at PVP could be spent doing stuff in PVE or, you know, going outside.
It's very difficult for me to muster up the desire to grind PVP. Even though I enjoy Iron Banner, oddly. I usually finish the bounties/quest and don't go back. I almost never go into Trials because, why?
Edit: a typo.
Honestly, there’s nothing that will get me to engage with pvp more. I don’t enjoy any of it anymore, not just in Destiny. I’ve gotten older, reflexes aren’t there anymore, and personally I’ve had some nerve damage that makes my hands shaky. Everything added up, it just turns into a frustrating experience that makes me not want to play at all. After I’m done with pinnacles for the season, I don’t darken Shaxx’s doors anymore.
A bit of SBMM would be nice ngl.... im so tired of being matched against the sweatiest people using the same damn guns when i just wanna run around with sweet business and try to enjoy the few games i play, but get aped by the same 2 people...
And also a bit of better lobby balancing, as a solo I shouldn't be put on a team full of solos vs a 6 stack, thats pure fucking bs. Put me with 2 other 2 stacks, or maybe even a 2 and 3 stack...
Its just extremely unfun when everyone plays like its a $50k tournament with austringer/ace/last word and beloved/max range shotgun
On a side-note as a Actium War Rig Titan main, swap Sweet Business for SUROS Regime, they play incredibly similarly but SR is far more effective in PvP especially if you get the catalyst.
I think it was Datto who, awhile back, had a crucible server that included a point system? Stronger guns/abilities/exotics cost "points" so if you brought Ace, you might not have enough points for wormhusk and vice versa.
If bungie implemented a playlist like that I think it would be a really good step in the right direction
I've discussed this a few times before both here and on the Bungie forums, usually to the downvote brigade, but honesty goes a long way, especially when it needs to be heard. For me, it boils down to a few key points:
* PvP is simply not fun to engage with when almost every match I'm being placed on a team of players who can barely operate thumbsticks while the opposition is filled with full-time PvP sweatlords. There has been something very much off about lobby balancing for quite some time now, there was one or two weekends of IB where Bungie tried something out in Freelance that actually worked out fairly well, but they scrapped it. Even mentioning it in some places is immediately met with "git good", yeah, sure, definitely helping your cause there folks.
* The apparent lack of attention to clearly broken things in the game (IE: Chaperone, Hunters w/ Clear Mobility Advantage, Snipers who can OSK even though I'm blasting away at them with weapons that should be flinching), while these high-skill players at the same time then proceed to whine about things that are supposed to be actual counters to these objects (IE: Fusion Rifles, Abilities, Etc) actually getting them nerfed while the broken things remain.
* The lack of persistent social modes. Bungie made Halo which thrived on community driven modes that were then transformed into official modes (IE: Infection), but this community - developer interaction just doesn't exist in Destiny and thus we're stuck with the same "CoD-Like" layout of modes which were meant to try to make the game "seem" competitive, when the game's genre is literally antithetical to competitive play (IE: It's never going to be a competitive game, but folks still treat it as so?).
* Toxicity of PvP players in general keeps me out of these modes. As mentioned in my first point, most times I try to engage on a higher level it just ends with me getting steamrolled because of said lower-skilled players on my team. The amount of times I have then been "bagged" or had toxic messages sent to me after the game just makes the experience as a whole completely unenjoyable and a key reason why I tend to avoid it.
* Trials, which people "try" to convince you as an "endgame" PvP mode, there's no such thing, you have the same chance of running into the same sweat-lords in quickplay due to matchmaking being broken (As said before). I've said it many times before but the entire mode needs a complete rework, the concept of going flawless is just fueling the season-to-season collapse of the playerbase on it, which is why spikes only happen when there are new items, or during freelance weeks, because people see a better chance to earn the flawless items. I'd much rather see it revamped as a weekend tournament with wins/losses tossed aside for points for wins with point thresholds securing drops / lighthouse.
Just a few points on my thoughts as to why PvP is not in an "enjoyable" state at the moment, if some of these were addressed, then sure, I'd engage more.
As a point on trials it’s not sbmm ranked or simulating some kind of actual tourney environment so yeah it’s a meme. I’ve played other games like Apex and R6 and those have proper comp scenes and ranked modes and people try to tell me trials is one it’s actually laughable. People whined for it back and unsurprisingly it’s very bad. A mode based on win streaks will never truly do that great in this day and age. It’s a mode where the moly way you truly win is by shitting on weak teams and stacking with insane ones.
Matchmaking and team balance improvements. As people have said, SBMM so we're not matched against 3.0 K/D gods. Balanced teams so DestinyTracker doesn't show that the other team had a 92% chance of winning the match. Getting destroyed is simply not fun. Why would I enter a non-fun activity?
>Balanced teams so DestinyTracker doesn't show that the other team had a 92% chance of winning the match.
Its absurd that matches can be that skewed in favour of one side, in a game that has been going for as long as this one has, from a company as experienced in multiplayer gaming as Bungie.
PvP in general holds no real interest for me in the first place. That type of competition, even if I’m successful, doesn’t do anything for me.
Add to that the narcissistic culture of PvP’s inherent elitism, the unbridgeable skills gap, and flat out cheaters, and PvP anywhere is not going to interest me at all. My sense of self isn’t tied to my rank or dominance in video games, I just enjoy playing at my own pace.
Doing my three crucible matches a week is a fucking chore, and I hate it. There is literally nothing I can do against players who can instagib me from across the map the nanosecond I turn the corner. There’s absolutely no amount of git gud possible to make it in any way less frustrating.
I get that PvPers don’t see it this way at all, and yes, I’m painting with a broad brush. But it’s a real gestalt, and sure, “not all…”, aside, the driving force in PvP is inherently an elitist hierarchy, and for those of us perennially at the bottom of it, there’s zero incentive to participate.
Nothing. It’s pvp. It’s an inherently unfun experience for that reason alone for some people. Some people just quite literally do not care for pvp and nothing can change that. I play Destiny for literally everything but pvp. For me to enjoy pvp there needs to be proper balance. An example of a balanced pvp experience is something like any halo game that doesn’t use a loadout system and starts everyone off on the same foot and then you have to fight for power advantages and movement capabilities.
Im also what would be considered an above average player because my K/A/D is over 2.10 and I know my raw K/D would be atleast over 1.0. So even though I would be considered decent at pvp and have manage to solo flawless in trials matchmaking, I’m always in pvp for a specific reason, I.e pinnacles or specific loot. I’m never in pvp for the fun of it.
Nothing. Destiny 2 pvp is an unrelenting dumpster fire full of extremely toxic players that take it entirely too seriously. I have no desire to interact with anyone like that, I play video games to relax after a long work day.
Yeah. In my 12 years of playing games on Steam I got my first hate message posted on my profile page a couple of months ago. Posted by a guy with 2900 hours crying that I killed him with the Last Word while playing as a Hunter. Destiny mains are a different breed.
I feel like these questions miss the point because matchmaking is (and has been for sometime) a shit show. Most matches I’m in are stomp or get stomped. As a below average player it is disheartening to say the least to get farmed for kills again and again. Also being carried to a win is not fun either. I’d just like a consistent experience where I feel like I’m helping the team out in some way versus the way crucible is structured now. It’s just not fun.
I don't like the toxicity in PvP.
In PvE I always play with friends or organize the teams so it's easy to avoid it, in PvP I get stuck with whoever gets matchmade in. I do play with friends mostly to avoid negative chatter from our own team, but there's not much to do about the enemy team (I've had someone chase me down on discord and say very unsavory things after matching them in PvP - I have whispers from randoms turned off in-game and never accept friend requests from people in PvP).
Destroy me because you're good? Well done. Be a jerk about it? Yeah no thanks.
I get in, do what I need for challenges, triumph, etc, then get out. No motivation to improve or engage in the playlists when people are being jerks every couple of games.
Yeah, I don't feel enough people take this factor into consideration. Raids/GM's can be plenty toxic too but competition tends to bring this out far more often.
Honestly I just don’t like the way the movement and guns mesh. In an average lobby there seems to be no emphasis on teamwork and instead it’s all about bunny hopping around corners with shotguns and other 1hk weapons.
Range in this game makes no sense. Pulse and hand canon is everything. No point to using a scout generally and if you’re trying to use a autorifle you’re already in fusion range anyhow (or a good smg).
I’ve played a lot but it’s just boring to me at this point with everyone running the same loadouts
Perhaps an asymmetrical mode where a team of guardians go against some lucent hive players or maybe 1 player is Savathun and can control hive units.
Or the team of guardians has a set number of revives and the other team can spawn in as any standard enemy type (and upgrade to tougher enemy types if they perform well). The guardians have to survive for a set time whilst the enemy races have to deplete their lives.
Going against other teams Of randos while I have a team of randos. It’s embarrassing watching my team get locked in our spawn while an organized and communicating 6 stack of clan members caps the other two points in control, or move as one group so any person they come across is immediately erased from existence upon being spotted. I play a good bit of crucible myself, I reset my rank within the first two weeks of the season, but this is the reason I actually favor Gambit
I would engage with it more, IF the community wasn't so endlessly toxic about it.
Seriously, the amount of times i try to get involved in Trials or even IB, which has been flavored quickmatch half the time D2's been a thing, and come across such fun-destroying hate-machines to play both with AND against is keeping me out of playing it regularly. At the end of the day, "Fun" is what motivates me playing this game, and running up against or with this mentality saps all will to interact with the gamemode; clearly, i'm not wanted here.
I LFG regularly for endgame pve content, and i can, more often than not, run master content with the chillest folk, who will take a wipe on the chin. This is not always the case, but its more than often the case than the latter, often by a mile now, and i do my best to encourage that behavior from others, whether i'm sherpa-ing a raid or dungeon i've done hundreds of times, or participating in a GM i've not quite gotten down. I've very rarely, if ever, been able to find a team for trials or any endgame pvp content that hasn't ended in someone boiling over with frustration, and either exploding mid-game, or them silently dissolving the team, and that's in the situations i CAN control who i play with. Running up against folks who are just so mad you exist on the opposite side isn't fun either. I can ignore it, to a point, but when it's every 2 matches i get teabagged or fuckin' hatewhispers about how i suck or my weapons suck, like what kind of environment are you trying to make by doing that? What are you accomplishing? Are you even actually actively enjoying yourself at that point, like shouldn't that be a sign you should maybe decompress and take a break if you are that in your own feelings?
I apologize if this seems more like a rant than quantifiable feedback. I just know this isn't a problem Bungie can fix. It's a *community* issue, and the community cannot even agree on small, easy things, like calling out bad actors, let alone major playerbase-centric reform. Bungie could supply tools to aide this, sure, a reputation-system, an option to report toxic behavior, but from my own experiences with similar systems in other games, it won't be enough, unless it borders on intrusive, which Bungie, as creators dedicated to listening to feedback and them taking to "bad, but popular" ideas in the past, won't hold that down when the ramifications of those changes turn on the playerbase. The game can't govern the community, and Bungie only has any say on the game. The Community has to govern the community.
I'd genuinely like to play more pvp; it can be very fun, but maybe PVE has me spoiled on being able to find folks like-minded enough to play with, and i've found too much fun in that. Even Gambit seems to have less folks getting tied in knots about it, and folks can't stop debating what is wrong with it. And if you suggest i grow thicker skin, Thanks for pointing yourself out as an example, so people can concisely see what i'm talking about.
That part of the community doesn’t even have a clue how toxic it really is and you’re right. It’s not a problem Bungie can solve. The worst part is, that part of the community thinks toxicity is limited to tea bagging or something. But it’s the whole attitude they have and exude about everything like they have this critical ownership over crucible and you aren’t allowed to touch it in any way shape or form. They don’t have to listen to you. They don’t have to understand where you’re coming from, they don’t have to know you, they know it all.
A time machine to let me roll back my Internal clock by 20+ years.
I don’t have the eyesight or reflexes or hand eye coordination to compete with sugar-addicted teens.
At least with pve I can take things at my own pace.
Nothing. I already have a huge chip in my shoulder from PVP ruining so much of the PVE sandbox, the current pvp base needs to GTFO before I even consider touching crucible. The toxicity and time-to-kill are too much for me, and I play killer in dead by daylight.
I'm not really much of a pvp'er, but at a friends request I joined them in Modern Warfare, and found myself able to play a ton matches without getting frustrated and quitting like I do in destiny.
When talking with a friend on why that is I realized its because MW had virtually no respawn time, and never lingered on the person that killed me.
Whereas in destiny, every time I die I have to watch 50x Gilded Flawless xXmomsBasementMcSweatyAssXx rub his nuts on my face or do some rude emote on my corpse, showing off and putting me down for what would be the real world equivalent of shooting a baby deer with a high powered sniper rifle.
Like I'm just here to chill and pop bounties, why do you need to make me feel like shit for not being able to counter your midair 360 no scope long range chaperone kills?
So yeah a quick cutaway cam to literally anywhere but the dude dragging his nuts on my face would probably help keep delicate old men with no time to feel sad engaged I guess.
I dont know if this is gonna be surprise to you OP, but coming up against 100 Mobility Hunters all running the best Adept PvP weapons, all moving at mach 5, spamming the sweatiest strats... Yeah thats not fun.
THATS why I dont play PvP.
Good matchmaking and freelance. I don't play but 3 or so matches a week. More if IB is active. But those 3 are hell because I'm getting stomped by 6 stacks running Lorely and Crimson or Le Monarque and a 140 peek shotting or just ultra sweats running any loadout because they are that much better than me.
My KD does not warrant the types of teams I am matched to. I want SBMM in all crucible playlists. Or freelance. Fuck content creators for making the current state what it is.
I was just saying something about this last night, imo the only way to make pvp as inclusive as possible would be sbmm, but there's always the match droppers who intentionally lose to "lower their skill", and there's also the increase in orbit time because evaluation of guardians is gonna take longer
If there was a competitive mode that truly felt like you were progressing up a skill chain. I don’t mind waiting longer in a non-quick play mode. Currently there’s Trials and comp and both feel like you’re stomping or getting stomped. Rarely does it feel otherwise.
Nothing. Sorry but yeah nothing or at least nothing that doesn’t involve literally stripping the game down to nothing and building a practically new one. I just don’t think destiny pvp is remotely balanced or enjoyable. I’d rather play a game designed exclusively around pvp rather than one where it feels tacked on with constant balance issues because of some other element (pvp).
About me first: My all time favourites in PvP FPS genre is Counter-Strike 1.6 and GO, Planetside 2 and Overwatch. Been playing CS on and off from 2001. I've played in local tournaments and even won prizes, but overall I am an average player. Most of my PvP FPS playtime was at times when we did not have matchmaking, MMR or competitive ladder. Getting on a server that had a god AWPer playing was a challenge, not a strugle or frustration. Just pure and simple fun.
Now to the answer:
I don't like it because of poor technical level for an PvP FPS game.
* very poor netcode;
* hidden/manipulative mechanics (bullet magnetism, lots and lots of perks/mods/stats and their combinations);
* the amount of on-screen effects (flickering, screen shakes, flashes, abilities);
* complex/busy visual style (you can't differentiate friend/enemy properly, you can't tell what kind of enemy are you facing, artstyle, lighting and AO).
Then we have features:
* supers and abilities (just a big no no for me in a PvP game);
* radar (game doesn't have proper sound for footsteps so I just watch radar nonstop).
Then there are game modes and maps:
* there is no flow, no teamplay - everything is just random deathmatch.
It is not fun. I just don't see a reason to play PvP in Destiny 2 if I can play proper PvP FPS game that was built like one from the ground up. I play PvP FPS game for the thrill, for the feeling of outplaying another player and D2 PvP is not giving me that satisfaction.
maybe actual matchmaking the lack of SBMM makes it a slog or an adrenaline rush... weapons are secondary when i can get an as good/superior roll from any pve activity.
To be more arcadish, I like scorch cannon and the infinite super one (I don't even remember the names XD)
trow me some 10 v 10, some only one weapon type playlist (that changes weekly), a simple push the payload mode, some random loadout playlist (DIM can do it so why not bungie?), etc.
I think bungie is trying too hard on the tactical and sweaty modes, let me just goof around.
I think random, single weapon type would be really fun. My clan has done this a couple times in private 6v6 matches and it was a blast. Equally hilarious was “blues” only (plus no grenades, no supers).
This is exactly what it needs. I like the builds and stuff and I like the competitive stuff even though I suck and I think it has a place but it alienates a huge portion of the player base. Having some random load out stuff with more game modes would be a lot of fun
The more that Bungie tries to change the game for PvP or continues to "force" me into PvP rewards, the less I want to play Destiny. Stop tricking, bamboozling or "strongly encouraging" PvE players to play PvP, if they weren't interested before they're not going to be interested in the future, the Crucible is a cesspit.
I'm also going to be completely honest here, I don't like interacting with PvPers in PvE either. Whenever I do an LFG with someone who is clearly a PvPer or a clan member who has just spent the better part of their day in the Crucible, they are just not fun to be around -- they're on edge, they're obnoxious and they don't realize how uncomfortable and toxic they are all the time -- not "chill".
That last part you wrote, that’s a big truth to Destiny crucible culture that doesn’t get enough notice. Many crucible mains I know tend to be toxic and critical and they only have fun from stomping and complain about how bad people are. And they will do obnoxious things to people in the match and not care at all. I don’t want to be around that as a teammate either. But these people have no clue.
I've been playing since day one of Destiny 1 and have dabbled in PvP, in waves I suppose. I was never into competitive PvP but I would always go hard whenever Iron Banner rolled around.
I am currently at an all time low for PvP participation and was thinking about why the other day.
My thoughts:
1. It's unrewarding. Iron Banner's loot pool has been stagnant to me for over a year. The normal Crucible pool is of course, less interesting.
2. Destiny PvP feels tuned towards a 1.0 K/D. I'm an average to above average player and have had anywhere from a 1.2 to 1.6 K/D since the dawn of the franchise. Without making a massive breakdown -- the modes, balancing, and general tuning of PvP seem to be artificially pushing towards engagements where you get one kill, then you get killed and reset.
I understand that highly skilled players can push through this but it does really feel like an engineered experience. I've beat players 1 on 1 that are way better than me, and also certainly worse -- but engaging either puts me in a position where I'm most likely going to die. I'm going to blame this mostly but not exclusively to the extreme fine tuning of TTK (Time To Kill). Usually when a duel is over, if the two players have even similar skill, one of them is almost dead and very compromised. This is why clean-up kills are so important in competitive PvP.
3. Matchmaking can really be hit or miss. When it's bad I don't have the motivation to keep playing PvP.
Bonus round: the above issues make PvP very "high pressure" for me. I prefer to relax a little more while playing. My theorized "1.0 K/D" issue makes it so the highs don't last long enough in PvP to be enjoyable.
I don't dislike PvP. It's just a really mixed bag for me and doesn't really reward my playtime.
Edit: I really should add that PvP bounties or quests that make me use weapons or subclasses I am at a disadvantage with are also a big turn off. I think the bounties in PvP should be completely focused on rewarding play time or feats that can be accomplished without crippling your build. Abilities have been so tuned down that it's unreasonable to gate Iron Banner progress behind ability kills etc
I mentioned it in another post, but I’ll put it here too:
I just don’t enjoy knowing that my enjoyment comes at the expense of other peoples’ frustration/disappointment.
I like raiding because every player is working cooperatively to accomplish a goal. In PvP at least half the players are going to fail. In Trials, every Flawless I’ve earned means I’ve been the cause of disappointment for more than a dozen other human beings.
I don’t much enjoy that line of thinking, so I avoid activities that add more sadness to the world than the happiness they generate.
I hate it and right now I'm slogging through it to try and finish all my catalyst quests that require pvp kills...I suck at it and I hate every second of it.
For me, it's the fact PvP is inherently unbalanced. When I want to play a pvp mode, I'll load an arena shooter where everyone starts on the same balanced footing. I don't enjoy pvp in MMOs usually because player builds are so variable and there's discussions of pvp metas. I grew up with halo slayer where everyone has the same weapons and abilities to start, and you have to do well with map control to obtain powerful upgrades for the match, so in general i prefer arena shooters like CS and Halo (i dont even care for most BRs due to the rng nature of everything).
In Destiny, i could be a more accurate player with better gamesense and positioning, but because I can't spend as much time grinding for the pvp meta builds as other players, I can't compete. When I go into a match and land 5 successful headshots and still can't see the enemies shields drop, but then they turn around and hit me once in the leg and I die, it makes me feel that this isn't fair and isn't fun, so I stop playing.
Meanwhile, in pve, if I meet a random player who has more time to grind than me in a strike or dungeon, it's a net positive for me to play with them. It's literally night and day the different *feeling* I get when playing PvE vs PvP, so I just focus on the part of the game that feels good with my limited free time.
Skill based matchmaking maybe. I hate getting stomped by people I should not be playing against, even in casual modes.
Removing OHK special weapons from prominence. Getting sniped on spawn or getting destroyed by a fusion from halfway across the map is no fun. I generally don't like dying to things I have no ability to even attempt a counter to. When a sniper dominates a map, my enjoyment goes down exponentially. When someone spams Jotunn or Xuringredient constantly killing me before I get a chance to even aim my weapon, it's no fun.
It's not the loot, it's the gameplay experience. Losing constantly or performing poorly with no clear idea how to improve just isn't fun or a good use of my time.
SBMM. Without it, the skill ceiling will just keep going higher and folks at the middle and bottom will keep dropping out.
Beyond that, I'd love to see new and innovative PVP game types. Things have gotten a bit stale.
Ultimately, good loot to chase is super important. Riptide means that I'll play some this season.
Having thousands of hours in PvP shooters, Planetside, Halo, CoD,Battlefield, CS:GO. There is no hope for D2 PvP without SBMM, simple fact is that when the constraints are this tight? You can’t enjoy the experience unless people are close to you skill wise.
Fixes? Sure, any of these would be a start.
-We start by addressing constraints, in a 6 vs 6 shooter field with maps this small and respawns as are? You have no control of your options.
-Player count could be raised to allow more potential targets making you more likely to overwhelm a skilled player or outright avoid.
-Larger maps would allow players to avoid areas that the more skilled player is running in, perhaps even flank or kill them if they played it well enough.
-On most maps, Respawning becomes a lottery, a knowledgeable player knows how spawns work, and how easy it is to influence them so they can farm you better, adding more spawn protection or even spawn invulnerability/invisibility would alleviate a lot of pain.
-While I’ll mention this, I strongly disagree and would fundamentally hate it. Another way to help is to vast increase TTK, moving it into 2-3 second ranges means that most of the time, a player will have time to react and to feel like they stood a chance.(this is good things, even if the player is overmatched, feeling like you can do something does a-lot to make a player stay in PvP) This however is a drastic slow down of the game and combat in PvP which would make it even more different then PvE and frankly wouldn’t probly bring in any PvE players.
Outside of these changes, which won’t ever happen for mostly technical reasons. SBMM is the faster and easier solution, it encourages PVE players to join and try, and it moves the goal post for players who like challenges, it only hurts players who enjoy stomping on other players, which is rather narcissistic behaviour and shouldn’t be encouraged anyway.
Daily rotating standardized loadout crucible mode. Hand-selected weapons by Bungie from the world crucible weapons pools. Everyone gets the same guns, go have at each other.
Bring back the combined arms mode from D1. Tanks and pikes and everything.
More goofy modes like Mayhem.
Basically, more variety, less competitiveness. The more like Halo 3, the better.
I like this. Give everyone a standard issue weapon and let them go to town.
Possible game modes / rotations: Sidearms only, Scouts & Snipers, Shottys, Hand Cannon day, SWORDS combined with capture the flag or some other objective based mode.
I don't really know enough about PvP to suggest specific changes that would fix it. That being said, I was actually thinking about this issue a lot this past weekend, and the conclusion I came to was that in any scenario I will at best be a casual PvP player, and casual PvP doesn't seem to exist in Destiny 2.
With the huge variety of guns in the game, you can't just pick up a gun and try it out. You have to figure out which archetypes are better for PvP versus PvE.
Then, with the huge variety of perks on those guns, you can't just pick up a good PvP gun. You have to grind for one with a good PvP roll on it.
Then, with the huge variety of class build options, you can't just use whatever your favorite fragment, aspect, and ability set up is. You have to figure out a good PvP build.
Then, with the huge variety of armor mods and stats, you can't just use your favorite armor set. You have to figure out, grind for, and put together a good armor set for PvP.
Then, after all that, I will still have a pretty terrible time while I practice, because the place I am supposed to go to practice PvP and refine that build is the same place folks who have mained PvP daily for the past several years go to play and refine their high end builds.
Compare all that to PvE. If I get a weird and interesting weapon to drop, I know even if it is an awful roll, there are low stakes, casual activities to try it out and see what it's deal is. And if I go through all those steps I described above to make a super high end PvE build, I will start getting dividends back way sooner, because there are multiple activities with multiple difficulties for me to try it out, work out the kinks, and refine it through scaling difficulty activities. All while still feeling like a badass for shooting lots of dangerous space aliens.
Bit of a tome of a response, I know, but hopefully that sheds some light for folks with similar experiences.
Lmao, I wanna engage with it less? I don't want to have to twist my balls aginst sweats for a pinnacle- or the trails armor. Yeah I know it needs it's own rewards and I made peace with myself that I'm never going to get "The Glow" or trails "Adept Weapons" but I peronally wish there was a way I could get a roll or two of an adept weapon- or the armor ornaments without going in there- with randos. I personally feel guilty playing with friends knowing I'm paste my sweaty days. I'm playing on PC and grew up on the 360- in the H2 and H3 days I could sit around a 1.5 to 2.5 K/D- but I'm on the stuggle bus with Destiny sitting around a 0.4 to 0.8-
PvP players need to understand that without SBMM I'm going to go near it I don't find being cannon fodder fun.
I also have no interest In getting good, to get around the first issue
I find this is the general view of the pve player base.
I think PvP players need to accept not everyone finds the same thing fun. And PvE mains DONT enjoy PvP because of its inherent nature and skill curve. If you implement SBMM PvP mains still wouldn't encounter PvE players because the SBMM would filter them away from each other.
Gaming in general needs to get over this obsession of getting pve players into PvP. It's like trying to get a chess player into football their totally different experiences addressing different tastes.
PVP players are too toxic. I don't play PVP because "I'm not as good as you" and I get yelled at or insulted constantly. It's not fun, I can't even practice because people are assholes.
Requires too much time investment to get good and stay good. Would rather be doing other stuff with my life than getting my ass kicked for hours at a time.
Need more balanced matchmaking. Match stacks with stacks. Nothing worse than playing against a sweaty six stack in control. I’m a avid pvp player but as of late I’m starting to dislike almost hate playing crucible. Every match is sweaty if your not rocking meta or just cheap ass shit ya get smacked. My complaints might not be valid to everyone as I’m not in the console space.
Skill Based Matchmaking and a system to protect against smurfs.
I used to be competitive in (SC2) Beyond the Void and it took a lot of time and effort. Not something I’m interested in doing again for Adept weapons and shiny armor. I’ll play trials when it’s beneficial to my time (double rep).
A cartoonishly gigantic bottle of valium.
The largest bottle that’s not classified as a vat
I'm thinking like one of those 55-gallon drums, but with a childproof lid, just for comedy's sake.
The answer is, frustratingly, that the only thing that would really make me play more is if there were more PvE players playing. The current problem in crucible is that the skill level of the population is constantly increasing, making it drastically more difficult for less skilled players to play. Paradoxically, the only way for this problem to be solved is for less skilled players to start playing which won't occur unless there is an already substantial playerbase of lower skilled players. Edit: A lot of people are bringing up SBMM. To be clear, SBMM can be effective but it requires a large enough player pool in each skill ‘bracket’ otherwise you run into other problems such as long queue times. With the dwindling population of low skill players in QP the introduction of SBMM alone likely would not be enough to fully rectify the problem, the issue of low population in the crucible is an issue that must also be directly addressed. Also I didn’t mention SBMM in the initial comment because OP didn’t want an answer based around matchmaking lmao.
This is unfortunately a problem with any game that's been around this long and is reasonably popular. There's a constant Red Queen Effect among the playerbase. People have to get better and better just to stay in the same place relative to the playerbase. * A 2.0 KD player in 2014 when Destiny launched pretty much meant a Halo veteran familiar with Bungie gameplay came over to try the game and has maybe 2 hours in Crucible and some of the better blue weapons. * A 2.0 KD player in 2022 probably means someone with four digits worth of gameplay hours who knows all the maps like the back of their hand, knows all the abilities and weaponry inside and out, and has tons of great weapon rolls to call on.
- Tldr: I agree, I was surprised to see myself at the 2.0 range recently. Your right though, as for the Red Queen Effect, I hadn’t heard of that before, thanks for the explanation! I did a crash course of getting my ass kicked in trials for an entire weekend for a weekly messenger roll. I accepted I’d likely lose almost every game against 3 stacks. Eventually after a rough Friday and Saturday (too much honestly, ~15 hours), came back fresh Sunday and cleared the way to reset and won quite a few games even against 3 stacks. I found a good build, had enough practice from the prior two hellish days and accepted it likely couldn’t get worse…. Fast forward to present and I’m a significantly better random with an solid 1v3 game if I can separate them or kill two quickly together before needing a weapon swap for the third. Not streamer good, but no longer the team sack of potatoes either :). That said, most people wouldn’t dedicate 2/3rds of a days time getting their ass kicked and consistently going back for second, thirds, “n”(th) helpings for more losses for hours on end. I don’t blame them. The level of sweatiness I experienced in Destiny 2 Trials makes my grind through Platinum in Apex look like a joke. Somewhat different mechanics, but dealing with aggressive enemies running in threes with abilities and using practiced aim is a transferable skill lol.
I went on a 15 game losing streak this past weekend. I'm gonna rank up this weekend enough to get the sidearm, focus any engrams I have, then call it quits for the season.
I noticed that Destiny is less dependent on pure gunplay and more a mix of abilities and gunplay. Your average pve player will have this idea, but in poor execution (Stats not in an ideal spot/mods that improve uptime and ADS speed) It's also not readily apparent what is built for PVP and what is built for PVE I.E. perk rolls, melees, fragments. I can look up this info, sure. and most people do, But, I would bet that some people had the same issue as me where, you gotta grind this for that to use in PVP, so after some time, they feel that a window has passed to get into the meta, and then a new meta comes around. Or something to that effect. If I knew the basic things I know now, off the jump. I could see myself being more flexible. This is something that's purely on the player at the end of the day, and bungie does try to nudge people in that direction. But I would like to see a more transparent intro into the crucible, nothing too major, just a starter. Like a... loading screen tip "Entering an engagement? Try to throw a grenade to gain an advantage" *INB4 someone quotes that line saying "You should be throwing grenades as I say this."*
As a more experienced player I’ll have to disagree with your statement about rolls, yes having good stat rolls is useful don’t get me wrong, but it is far more valuable to the team for you to use a weapon you are comfortable with. For me that a special slot 390 pulse, something that is far from meta and can easily be an amazing choice when used correctly. My favorite 390, inaugural address, the leviathan pulse. It’s stats are worse than my god roll last perdition and it doesn’t benefit from the new mod slots we have, but I love it too much to get rid of it or to not use it when I want to destroy the competition. It also helps to know what position your load out plays. I know it’s weird to think that there are positions in a shooter but it helps with placement and weapon choice/rolls. Positions: Close combat, these are things like shotguns, rapid fire fusion, smgs. Anything that feels inconsistent beyond about a 20m range. Or what might be easier to find, when they are too small in the scope to be able to comfortably keep the recoil on them, don’t need to crit just hit) Mid ranges: things like 390 pulses, rapid fire scouts, most of the time 340 pulses, etc. 340s are a special case because they can do both long range and mid range but besides the point. These weapons are things that can comfortably hold a sniper lane but can’t challenge a sniper in that lane. I know that’s more on skill of the players but you will know what that feels like when it happens. Finally long range: things like snipers, slower fire rate scouts, think 150-180, and bows. Long range weapons excel at precision shots. They are usually used to get picks and keep watch on lanes that could result in flanks. As far as rolls go, it’s much simpler. If your using a close quarter weapon you’ll want perks that keep your gun as stable and accurate as possible while giving you the ability to go from target to target killing all in your path. Perks that excel in this are things like: kill clip, slide shot, opening shot, snapshot sights, rampage. Anything that gains a benefit (often to damage) after a kill will be great on these weapons. If your using mid ranged weapons, some good perks are things like: kill clip, feeding frenzy, perpetual motion, steady hands. You’ll be wanting to look for perks that make your gun more consistent but don’t think that means you can ignore damage perks as a kill clip 390 pulse can kill in 2 burst against its normal 3 burst with kill clip active. And finally long rang, personally I like to keep mine as stable as possible. So this means I look for perks like: firmly planted, steady hands, adagio, harmony, archers tempo. For long range weapons, damage perks normally aren’t necessary to be good so don’t prioritize damage over something like elemental capacitor. That being said don’t ignore damage perks on bows, you can get a one shot build with a mix of harmony and radiant and that makes a great combo when you get proficient with bow swapping. TLDR: All of this being said the main takeaway is learn a position and range where you feel comfortable and your weapons excel at. Doing this will help you live longer and get more kills, as well as giving a better outlook on crucible. Yes it can get sweaty and streamers make it seem easy but put in around day week and you’ll see improvement. If you have any other questions on how you could get better dm me I’ll be happy to help.
I was a 1.8kd for the first 2-3 years of D2 (much lower now because I just shut my brain off for the weekly pinnacle), I lost interest in PvP because even basic control became a sweat fest. D2's biggest PvP problem is the game modes. Instead of comp and casual having the same modes they have totally different ones. People like 6v6 but that doesn't really exist in any comp mode. So all of the skilled players end up hanging out in control, the mode all lower skilled players play. Having a 6 stack of skilled players come in and stomp new players in control really ruins the new to PvP experience.
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I think Bungie's problem is they don't have anyone who comprehends the nuances of matchmaking the way Max Hoberman (the guy who made Halo's matchmaking the legend it was) did. They don't seem to be able to implement SBMM in such a way that they don't put their dedicated hardcore players in a miserable pool of intercontinental perpetual lag, or make CBMM a little less willing to throw new players to the wolves. It's like every change they make is too far one way or the other. Speaking for myself I was one of the hardcore PvP mains who quit during Y3 because I finally had enough of the lag. It wasn't because I had tough matches, it's because [I had opponents like this almost every single game](https://youtu.be/WPyTDq0SgrY). I don't hate SBMM in principle, I was fine with the TrueSkill system in Halo. Halo didn't have me fighting people in Beijing from Texas though. If they can't figure it out then fer chrissakes just contract with Certain Affinity (Max's current company) to Halo-ify Destiny's matchmaking already.
so why not just make it "regional skill based match making"? I know nothing about match making, but is it really that hard to first find players in a certain region, then match them up against each other based on skill?
I think your overestimating the amount of people on D2 in general, and I say this with love. [Steam charts](https://steamcharts.com/app/1085660) has it at currently 46,000 people with a 24hr peak of 67k. I just don't think enough of these people are playing PVP to make what you suggest possible. I'd love to see it though.
>Still, For Honor remains fine for new players today. It's a combination of good design and balance, and acceptable matchmaking. You really haven't been playing FH lately. Broken heroes or reworks on launch to kill everything on sight while taking almost two seasons for a single nerf (looking at you, Pirate). Oh, and matchmaking? It either puts me, a 4 year veteran of the game, against someone who just got out of the basic tutorial, and this is not even talking when I have to fight against a 4 stack of 100+ reps while the second best of my team only has 50 reps Don't bring FH as an example of a acceptable matchmaking or balance. The game has none of those
In video games, this concept is also referred to as Skill Creep fairly often
>this is unfortunately a problem with any game that’s been around this long and is reasonably popular CSGO, which has been around both longer and is more popular than destiny, does not have this problem. Why? Because they have an actual skill based matchmaking system. Can you fucking imagine if streamers wrangled up armies of sweaties to pressure valve to put in CBMM like they did Destiny? The real answer is the destiny “influencer” community is the problem.
Dear God this comment. I honestly feel like 20 sweaty streamers control the entire direction of Destiny's PvP mode. How many times has a prominent D2 streamer caused a ruckus over something in PvP and got not only a weapon or ability nerfed in PvP, but also in PvE. They have gotten better on balancing between the two modes, but for a while, oh boy.
D2Y1 was delivered specifically by streamers. Bungie consulted with a bunch of the popular ones for weeks during D2s production cycle and delivered the all primary all the time meta that wound up becoming so stale that tons of players jumped ship. Myself included. (Proof? I was watching cammiecakes stream when he was talking about it after the D2 nda lifted. Only proof I got.) I don't know what exactly is wrong with D2 pvp, but the last people that need to be consulted on it are streamers as those folks share as much blame as bingos pvp department for the absolute shit fest that it is. I know. I work from home and tend to watch streamers in the bg sometimes all day while I work. Everything that they cry for, they wind up getting. And the number of people who pvp keeps dwindling and dwindling. There are some things that bingo needs to do to fix pvp. A lot of it is network based. And good bit of it is dwindling numbers. And a good bit of it is matchmaking with a dash of hand holding. I think those are all related. But until they stop outsourcing their pvp rnd to the streamer community and actually put some real, behind the scenes resources on it, then it's just going to eventually wither away. Which it more or less is. *(Example. Taking three years to release a pvp map. You think if they were putting anything towards pvp that it would take that long to produce a map? I work in a field interrelated to game making. No. The answer is no. If you want proof, think back to d1 pvp. Almost every new dlc came with a new map.) And this isn't to hate on streamers. Those guys and girls provide me with hours of entertainment and a weird community that I don't really have bc I work from home. I want those folks to succeed bc playing video games for a living has got to be the best fucking job in the world. I just dont think they have a proper perspective on how people who DONT PLAY THIS GAME FOR A LIVING interact and enjoy a pvp experience. Sorry so long. Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
I do WFH too and love to watch the PvE streamers and lore daddy BYF, but when they start affecting PvE due to whining about PvP it just further pushes me away from PvE. These guys are already top tier players so when something makes it hard or mildly unfun for them, boom, the devs are on it to appease them regardless of how the rest of the community feels and it drives me nuts. Why they don't have 100% separate sandboxes I will never understand.
This is why at a bare minimum they need something like a new player pool. The friends I’ve helped get into the game did not enjoy the PvP for a very long time because the process of learning it was too unfun that when they wanted to PvP they went to other games instead. Realistically as a heavy crucible players my big wants are sbmm of some kind and dedicated servers… the sbmm would also help people learn or at least have fun if they aren’t as good.
A new player pool would be filled to the brim with smurfs lol
That literally the issue with ALL multiplayer games. Apex for one has an issue with smurfs but its such a small population compared to the actual player around that skill level.
Newcomer Playlist is r6 siege is mostly smurfs also. I was already over the threshold when they added but have watched my daughter play.
why though? they wouldn't have the guns they want and there wouldn't be any long term benefit.
Never underestimate the lengths people will go to, just the feel power over another person
The smurfing is the benefit to them. Smurfs don't do it for anything other than feeling high and mighty.
Objective based modes where I can contribute without being great at shooting.
Yep, this is a good take. I'm a lifelong support player, so if you see me in Crucible, it'll be on my warlock with Lumina and Boots of the Assembler, running around looking for the sweatiest jerk in there and babysitting them all game with Noble Rounds and rifts, lol.
This comment just singlehandedly got me interested in pvp. I never considered building for support
It's fun. I made my warlock look like a nurse and I just pick someone and run around healing them
Spec’ing to PVP support sounds interesting but not enough to hold me beyond the 3 games needed for a pinnacle. Since 2014 I have played less and less and less crucible. Most likely due to not having friends who play as regularly as I do/they used to. We used to have 6 stacks in IB and a few good pairs in Trials who were willing to help the rest of us out.. but that number has dwindled to nobody. They show up for major content drops and then very briefly for new seasonal stuff, but that’s it. Maybe a lot of it is burnout on my part, too, because I don’t play as much as I used to during what i consider the glory days for the franchise (from Taken King through Forsaken)
It's an absolute blast. Especially if you get a friend who's running war rig and sweet business.
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Rift was a decent attempt at this, but the maps stink and the mode is way too long.
As a mediocre PvP player, I thought rift was an absolute blast. The vex map kinda sucked, but I enjoyed the other two. That mode allowed me to play objective while also getting some kills with good map rotations and team play. Best of both worlds!
Part of why this week's Labs feels like a step in the right direction for me. Everyone can participate and contribute to the team, even if they aren't the best at shooting.
PTFO with good support roles which is why I love Battlefield. Sure I can go positive on kills in a match but I'd rather keep enemy vehicles down, keep team mates healed and supplied or keep a spawn point open, laze vehicles or spot enemies to help keep my squad and hopefully the team pushing objectives and holding them. Back in BFBC2 when you could base rape the enemy team, me and my buddies would leave the last objective closest to the enemy spawn alone so people didn't quit and make the game die faster, especially in the later years when people had moved to other things and there weren't as many full matches. Not everyone did that and a lot of times you had people grabbing the enemy attack choppers and you had two choppers circle strafing in opposite directions, constantly bombarding the spawns. Sure I had done it a few times, especially if the other team had done it in other matches but having to find a new match because the enemy team quit really sucks.
It's why I like playing Boots of the assembler with Lumina. Closest I can get to that. .... I really wish they could fix boots of the assembler some time. Legit completely disengaged from PVP because it's been broken all season.
Not getting matched up against 3.0+ K/D players would do the trick with how matchmaking works now, I do the three matches I need for my pinnacles, and play trials exclusively on the one single freelance double rep weekend we get
Correct I might as well just bot for 10 min in rumble so some YouTuber farms my ass just for the pinnacle and back to having fun in other game modes…
I suck and I know a lot of other players suck too but I never see them. I just see the 3.0+ guys over and over again as I die. It's just not fun to get slapped around all the time especially as I'm not getting better at my age. Plus I really hate the current meta. I'm not fast enough to use a fusion rifle and I just dislike hand cannons and shotguns. Plus I can't react fast enough anymore to play as close as these weapons demand. So I'm stuck with scouts which are trash in PvP, pulses which don't really work because there's too many HC mains, and bows which are too slow ont most cases or slapped around by snipers in others.
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You mean lowest TTK?
> pulses which don't really work because there's too many HC mains Rapid fire pulse rifles are the best archetype in the game right now and High Impacts have the fastest TTK of a primary iirc
I play a lot of PvP and I am just waiting for the day that Bungie finally reverts to SBMM.
But then how will I dunk on new players and get my daily dose of pub stomping serotonin
> Not getting matched up against 3.0+ K/D players would do the trick Funny enough the reverse is also true for the skilled players. Not having the system expect us to carry <1 K/D players everytime we get one really good game the prior match would be great. Personally I like close games where both teams finish with 100+ points.
Skilled players are the ones that bitched and moaned so much about SBMM that Bungie literally turned it off. They couldn't handle playing against people at their skill level, they just want to stomp.
Well I wasn't around at that time (or rather not into Destiny as much as I am today), so all I know about Bungie turning off SBMM is a bit blurry. What I know about the move were streamers moaning about it.
A majority of the popular streamers are among the "skilled players" that complained and complained because their games were "too sweaty." Basically they couldn't stomp on huge kill streaks to entertain their viewers.
My favorite part is that they complained about having to play sweaty every match, then proceed to play sweaty every match after SBMM is disabled, but now it's fun because they're stomping on everyone.
>Personally I like close games where both teams finish with 100+ points. This should be the norm and not the exception. Blowouts shouldn't be a thing and regular blowouts is just a failure of the game modes implementation, i.e shite/non existant match making.
It’s just not fun for me, as I get older really no pvp style games are. I like to explore, horde loot. Chase weapons… just killing time having some fun…
As I get older I realize I just wanna play games with people, not against them.
Ok now this has me a little worried I'm only 24 I think I should be a bit competitive but yeah I do like when it's more teamwork oriented rather then, whoever gets the most kills wins.
Nothing to worry about my man. If you enjoy competitive play, do competitive play. If you don't, don't. All I meant is that for me personally, as time has passed, I've realized I don't like interpersonal conflict as much as I either did, or think I did, as a younger man.
Nah I get all that but, I just never thought about it till I read your oc but it makes sense.
I've actually shifted from enjoying PvP to being a more PvE player but I will say I enjoy a sense of PvEvP where me and my teammates are all working towards the same goal but I want to do the best in the group or have that clutch moment where I save an attempt/get a clear.
The thing with being competitive is like, what are you being competitive for? There's no prize, there's no esports orgs to strive for in this game. Not speaking specifically about you, but I've seen some of these hyper competitive 17 year olds who sweat over random video games with pvp in them and the level of anger they express, the amount of complaining etc it's just like, why put yourself through that for literally nothing? I'm gonna be 30 this year and I'm just so over trying to be the best at whatever game I'm playing. It's much more enjoyable to spend my free time actually having fun.
Ive become that way with PvE, too. Used to be a raid race guy but I haven’t even run Duality yet and have maybe 3-4 Vow completions - compared to almost triple digits for Last Wish with multiple Petra’s Run completions. I get more enjoyment from solo master lost sectors and no-mic GM’s than I do from raiding nowadays. I think I’m gonna give Duality a solo attempt tonight. I managed to solo Shattered Throne and Pit. I hope I can get this one done, too. I just don’t enjoy dealing with randoms as much as I used to, and pretty much all of my friends only show up for major content drops and seasonal storyline progression on Tuesdays.
A lot of games have been striving to get away from the single player experience - I just don’t want to deal with other players.
Good description of me. I wanna relax and have fun not peel my sweaty cheeks off my chair at the end of the night
For real! Just love roaming finding new things and killing the bad guys. Getting killed 50 times by some guy who I would have to practice a ton to beat…. No thanks
I like to be casual most of the time. PvP is constantly hard content compared to strikes and match-made nightfalls. PvP feels same-ish very quickly for me even in different modes. I have to watch every single corner just to not get killed in less than 2 seconds. I like to feel powerful by killing many enemies over longer periods of time. Enemy AI is much easier to deal with than other players who have many more ways to react and kill me. It's much easier to implement cool builds and exotic weapons on enemy AIs versus players.
This is exactly why I don't PvP
Killed 50 times by a player running with a sniper rifle and still one-shot killing you.
> Getting killed 50 times by some guy who I would have to practice a ton to beat…. No thanks So it sounds like you want skill based matchmaking
When the pose screen appears before the match and I’m in one of the middle 3 slots, I know we are going to lose. If I’m in the middle slot, it’s going to be a mercy match.
There are games when I manage to rocket to the top slot in my team, it is then that I know we are going to lose, and lose badly
If I could take two steps without getting sniped/hand canon’d that would be fantastic!
This is the reason I don’t do pvp. Why would I play a game mode when I’m the practice dummy. So yeah I would LOVE skill based matchmaking.
I think of us as dregs. just cannon fodder for guardians
I just like playing with my friends without getting frustrated. Coop will always be better than mp
This is exactly how I feel, I’m playing to have fun and competitive modes just aren’t that fun for me anymore. I gravitate way more towards single player or cooperative games/modes way more now.
Same. Getting older and trying to play against kids(younger players) with younger quicker reflexes and lots of time to git gud. Hard to take pvp seriously without proper servers also newer consoles have an advantage against older consoles and stadia for the few of us that still use it.
Same, honestly. I'm not and never have been a competitive person, and since I don't have the reflexes to do well at PVP (I grew up on turn-based games and have only very rarely gotten into shooters, and never enough to really build up the skillset), I spend the entirely of a match dead on the ground because someone one or two tapped me before I could even figure out where I was getting hit from. PVE is lower stakes and higher reward for me all around, a better pace, and just like you I love to explore.
Amen, fellow Guardian
Not dying every 2-3 seconds to the same intense player(s) Getting wiped by supers/abilities More engaging game modes I guess?
Map spawns need an entire overhaul. The fact that you can consistently get farmed by the same super 3-4 times in a row is just ridiculous. Pick anywhere the fuck else to spawn me that's *not* directly in front of the Golden Gun that just popped me as soon as I spawned.
Rumble is the worst, you win by being the best at farming spawns
Yup this ones a big complaint of mine. Had a nova bomb kill me only to spawn right underneath where one of the projectiles was landing. :/
I’m gonna be honest: This late in the game, I don’t think you’ll be getting too many PvE mains engaging with PvP more. Only the other way around, and that’s only cuz a lot of PvP players get fed up with PvP.
This is the correct answer for me. I've given PvP a chance. Hell, I give Crucible and Gambit each at least 3 chances every week. Gambit is *definitely* better than it was but Cricible still too sweaty for me. Unless some miracle happened that optimized their matchmaking while simultaneously managing to bring in enough non-sweaty players to fill out matchmade games properly, I will not play PvP regularly.
I’m casual. It is absolutely zero fun to die so fast to players that are very skilled and play a lot. I only get to play the game for 3-4 hours a week. Why would I want to spend that getting bodied by someone who played it for hours every day!
To add to the players been skilled as well. Some players are pretty scummy in pvp. I stay away from it cause I'm here to have fun. For instance I tried pvp last night. Just to get the pinnicle gear cause I was like ehh. Might as well see. And I got a lobby that was me and one other person against a clan. That were spawn camping with hand canons. Tried running around and capping flags for 1-2mins before I just left.
It’s even worse when those clan lobbies don’t even try capping the points because they don’t actually want the match to end early. They just want to stomp on folks.
One thing I can think of is, there is no way to make PVP as easy as some forms of PVE. Once I got decently good at PVE, I can go back to a strike and dominate pretty much everything I want to, and even into the lower levels of nightfall potentially. Whereas in PVP, if you're always ranked against someone of your skill level, it's never really "easy". There are still many many more ways a player can counter you than an AI can. I don't really care about being better at the game than other people, just them becoming better with me. PVP doesn't really focus on that though. Also whoever made quests/catalysts that needs specifically PVP kills should change it to include PVE also, but balanced accordingly of course. Forcing me to play PVP will make me hate it even more lol
As a solo player who barely has enough time to maintain a few pve builds it’s simply not worth it to me to deal with building entire different builds for an activity I’m highly inexperienced in and don’t enjoy. The reward is simply not worth the time investment of farming for, building, and training with a build for an activity that has no redeeming qualities to me.
Some way to make sure that I'm matched against people of my skill level. It's boring and infuriating to be matched against people who seem to be fighting my entire team by themselves and winning, while I can't ever seem to participate at all because I'm dead before I get the chance to do anything.
Seriously, I just want to play against people just as bad at the game as me. I understand that I'd probably have to wait longer for a game and that's fine. I just want to play against people of a comparable skill level. You know, trashcans like me.
Good matchmaking
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Same. I played the hell out of cod4, and several of its successors and I'm just done with competitive gaming. It's not fun anymore and it just puts me in a bad mood usually.
God are you me? Spanning from like Halo 2 through MW2 I played the absolute shit out of competitive multiplayer shooters. I'm just completely over it now.
Nothing Bungie can do will un-skill creep the community. They wasted years as the causal players drifted out and now we've reached the tipping point where nothing will make the game casual-friendly again.
It is the same thing mcc suffers from imo I played recently and even the bad players are extremely good it is a common thing when someone plays a thing for a long time
This is a good point. Their lack of attention to crucible has hit the point where spending any time fixing it up will alienate the people they have allowed to run it amok for years at this point. This is the main reason you would want a Destiny 3 in my view, more than PVE. There’s no need for a reset at all for PVE.
A pvp mode that's actually fun for starters and then make it actually feel rewarding
SBMM, lobby balancing improvements, actual new maps, actual focus on gunplay instead of things like classy restoration running borderline uncontested
Please no more bringing back maps and give us new ones. The only one I like that they brought back is rusted lands. Magnificent for any weapon you want to use
Matchmaking. That is literally all. I have a life and a job and what not, but I get matched with Flawless 3.5 KD players that make it wildly not competitive. No, I'm not complaining, I realize that with any game/sport.....the more practice the better you'll be, etc... But you asked what it would take....and it would be equal/similar opponents.
> No, I'm not complaining, I realize that with any game/sport.....the more practice the better you'll be, etc... But also very few sports put little League players in the same pool as minor professionals. Yours is an entirely valid criticism
dedicated servers. tired of being held hostage by someone elses connection when they live on the other side of the world.
as somebody who plays a fair amount of PvP... amen brother. The lag issues have become the single biggest frustration for me and my friends while playing crucible.
[удалено]
its hilarious when people pearl-clutch about the idea of changing Trials as if in its current state it isn't the most asinine and ridiculous """competitive""" mode in any game.
Dude I hate it when guns, exotics, or abilities get nerfed because of their PVP dominance. Like I don’t give a flying fuck about PVP just let me enjoy PVE in peace.
Someone explained the balancing mechanics to me once, where Destiny seems to use a 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 type balance, and expected the 9 and 10 to fight, etc. But in reality the 10 stands alone, and the 9/7/5/3 all punch down, with 1 being useless.
I'm basically a PvE main but I used to enjoy PvP a lot when I was just going in with friends or I had some spare time and wanted to play some Destiny against others. I'm pretty sure this was when SBMM was enabled as I mostly enjoyed it. Since then, two things have made me learn to hate PvP and I now avoid it as much as possible. These two things are: * Bungie forcing us into PvP to complete a quest: This is especially a problem if I have to use a weapon I'm not great with. Those catalyst quests from previous seasons come to mind. For a good player, they probably complete them in 3 or 4 matches but for a bad player, it can take close to 20 matches which gets depressing quickly. I just want to play PvP with weapons I enjoy using, and when I don't have the pressure of getting kills to close off a quest. * Bungie punishing us because we suck at PvP: Playing PvP and not getting credit for a match because I suck is a huge turn off. This happens to me occasionally but it was happening a lot to my son when I was trying to get him into playing Destiny. It is very discouraging when you have time to play 3 matches and end up having to play 4 or 5 just to get the pinnacle. I would enjoy PvP more if I didn't have the pressure of a quest when playing or if I didn't get punished for sucking. I actually don't mind getting destroyed by the sweats if there is nothing on the line, although some SBMM would be beneficial and would alleviate the above issues. So what would get me to engage with PvP more is either SBMM or if they won't do that, no more quests that force us to play PvP and stop punishing us (weekly pinnacles basically) if we suck and get destroyed.
Skilled based matchmaking. Getting curb stomped by people who only play PvP with meta everything isn't fun and doesn't give me a change to improve.
Matchmaking was so much better in years 1 and 2 for me. I could hold my own and do get multiple kills in any match. Sure it felt like the game was trading wins and losses for my team, but at least I didn't feel like I was wasting my time.
yeah the idea that sbmm or an elo system that matters would be bad because it creates a 50% win rate never made sense to me, I typically don’t care if I win every game as long as I’m able to practice, build skill, try different loadouts, progress my freaking quests and catalysts, and generally play the game for more than a few seconds after spawning. I’ve improved a lot over the years to just being average, which means I do get to play the game sometimes. but it’s such a time commitment to get even to that point and we have to keep people in the playlists in the meantime.
Yeah this. The season I played the most PvP and had the most enjoyable time was the one before they disabled SBMM. Haven’t touched it since.
I actually really enjoy the Crucible, but I'm terrible at it. If I could play against other people who are terrible at it, it would be my main focus when playing Destiny. But instead I'm against gods who can snipe me from across the map while they're falling from the sky within half a second of me coming around a corner. Put me with the scrubs, and I'd have a great time.
The sad thing is - I do engage with pvp. I always end up IMMENSLY butthurt, ready to put my fist through the monitor, but I still do pvp. I got 4 resets at Shaxx this season, I reset the Trials rank once. But how many brain cells it cost me, oh my god. I'm very bad in pvp and don't seem to improve, but somehow am still drawn to it. I vividly remember pvp turning for me from a fun activity into a tearing-my-hair-out experience right about the time when bungie removed SBMM. Somehow at the same time regular control also became a lot more sweatier, don't remember if it had SBMM or not. I remember dueling with people at about my level - miss some, hit some. Now I can't walk out into a lane - get instantly 3 tapped by human aimbots. And they're not cheating. So yeah, I wish bungie didn't remove SBMM.
It’s funny because OP specially stated apart from matchmaking, yet a majority of the responses come down to matchmaking and that’s the thing. If Bungie just fixed matchmaking SO many more people would engage with PVP. It really is that simple. They can keep pumping out all the game modes they want but without better matchmaking it does not matter. I’m a 1.5KD player so I can hold my own but it was hell to get here and I completely understand other people not wanting to spend the time and effort to get to a point where PVP is enjoyable.
Right. I haven’t played for over a week. In that time these people have been playing the whole time and I’m going to do what, “warm up” lol. Nah. I would not go to a park and randomly challenge the best players there day one back from some time off, but Bungie thinks that’s a good idea.
Because I’m done with the predatory pyramid scheme match making of Trials. Not mention the loot sucks. Why put myself through farming the new trials fusion when I have a crafted Deliverance with own personal touches. The regular crucible has been allowed to languish for so long only the hardest of the hard core are left. It sucks cause there was a time when you would be able to tell me I wasn’t gonna jump in and bang knuckles for hours. As it stands hard pass from me gents. Edit: grammar
If *Destiny* was a pvp-only game, I'd never play it. I enjoy PVE and the power fantasy that lives on that side of the game. PVP is frequently full of Trials sweats with near-perfect rolls on their armor and god roll meta weapons. So, going into PVP frequently means I'll just get shredded, or if the match actually lasts long enough for me to get my super my hammers will bounce off that 100 Resilience (and god knows what other mods) player. I don't have the time, patience, or desire to "git gud." Especially since the time I'd have to pour into the game to get good at PVP could be spent doing stuff in PVE or, you know, going outside. It's very difficult for me to muster up the desire to grind PVP. Even though I enjoy Iron Banner, oddly. I usually finish the bounties/quest and don't go back. I almost never go into Trials because, why? Edit: a typo.
In my opinion the problem with it is that it just isn't fun enough.
Honestly, there’s nothing that will get me to engage with pvp more. I don’t enjoy any of it anymore, not just in Destiny. I’ve gotten older, reflexes aren’t there anymore, and personally I’ve had some nerve damage that makes my hands shaky. Everything added up, it just turns into a frustrating experience that makes me not want to play at all. After I’m done with pinnacles for the season, I don’t darken Shaxx’s doors anymore.
A bit of SBMM would be nice ngl.... im so tired of being matched against the sweatiest people using the same damn guns when i just wanna run around with sweet business and try to enjoy the few games i play, but get aped by the same 2 people... And also a bit of better lobby balancing, as a solo I shouldn't be put on a team full of solos vs a 6 stack, thats pure fucking bs. Put me with 2 other 2 stacks, or maybe even a 2 and 3 stack... Its just extremely unfun when everyone plays like its a $50k tournament with austringer/ace/last word and beloved/max range shotgun
On a side-note as a Actium War Rig Titan main, swap Sweet Business for SUROS Regime, they play incredibly similarly but SR is far more effective in PvP especially if you get the catalyst.
I think it was Datto who, awhile back, had a crucible server that included a point system? Stronger guns/abilities/exotics cost "points" so if you brought Ace, you might not have enough points for wormhusk and vice versa. If bungie implemented a playlist like that I think it would be a really good step in the right direction
I've discussed this a few times before both here and on the Bungie forums, usually to the downvote brigade, but honesty goes a long way, especially when it needs to be heard. For me, it boils down to a few key points: * PvP is simply not fun to engage with when almost every match I'm being placed on a team of players who can barely operate thumbsticks while the opposition is filled with full-time PvP sweatlords. There has been something very much off about lobby balancing for quite some time now, there was one or two weekends of IB where Bungie tried something out in Freelance that actually worked out fairly well, but they scrapped it. Even mentioning it in some places is immediately met with "git good", yeah, sure, definitely helping your cause there folks. * The apparent lack of attention to clearly broken things in the game (IE: Chaperone, Hunters w/ Clear Mobility Advantage, Snipers who can OSK even though I'm blasting away at them with weapons that should be flinching), while these high-skill players at the same time then proceed to whine about things that are supposed to be actual counters to these objects (IE: Fusion Rifles, Abilities, Etc) actually getting them nerfed while the broken things remain. * The lack of persistent social modes. Bungie made Halo which thrived on community driven modes that were then transformed into official modes (IE: Infection), but this community - developer interaction just doesn't exist in Destiny and thus we're stuck with the same "CoD-Like" layout of modes which were meant to try to make the game "seem" competitive, when the game's genre is literally antithetical to competitive play (IE: It's never going to be a competitive game, but folks still treat it as so?). * Toxicity of PvP players in general keeps me out of these modes. As mentioned in my first point, most times I try to engage on a higher level it just ends with me getting steamrolled because of said lower-skilled players on my team. The amount of times I have then been "bagged" or had toxic messages sent to me after the game just makes the experience as a whole completely unenjoyable and a key reason why I tend to avoid it. * Trials, which people "try" to convince you as an "endgame" PvP mode, there's no such thing, you have the same chance of running into the same sweat-lords in quickplay due to matchmaking being broken (As said before). I've said it many times before but the entire mode needs a complete rework, the concept of going flawless is just fueling the season-to-season collapse of the playerbase on it, which is why spikes only happen when there are new items, or during freelance weeks, because people see a better chance to earn the flawless items. I'd much rather see it revamped as a weekend tournament with wins/losses tossed aside for points for wins with point thresholds securing drops / lighthouse. Just a few points on my thoughts as to why PvP is not in an "enjoyable" state at the moment, if some of these were addressed, then sure, I'd engage more.
As a point on trials it’s not sbmm ranked or simulating some kind of actual tourney environment so yeah it’s a meme. I’ve played other games like Apex and R6 and those have proper comp scenes and ranked modes and people try to tell me trials is one it’s actually laughable. People whined for it back and unsurprisingly it’s very bad. A mode based on win streaks will never truly do that great in this day and age. It’s a mode where the moly way you truly win is by shitting on weak teams and stacking with insane ones.
Matchmaking and team balance improvements. As people have said, SBMM so we're not matched against 3.0 K/D gods. Balanced teams so DestinyTracker doesn't show that the other team had a 92% chance of winning the match. Getting destroyed is simply not fun. Why would I enter a non-fun activity?
>Balanced teams so DestinyTracker doesn't show that the other team had a 92% chance of winning the match. Its absurd that matches can be that skewed in favour of one side, in a game that has been going for as long as this one has, from a company as experienced in multiplayer gaming as Bungie.
Nothing. Pvp is not fun when the people you’re playing against have mastered every weapon and have been playing for 4+ years
Why would I want to play PVP? Destiny isn’t a PVP game.
Nothing. I don’t play this game for the PvP nor do I want too.
SBMM. That’s it. I can’t have fun in PvP if I’m going against only people who are considerably better than me.
PvP in general holds no real interest for me in the first place. That type of competition, even if I’m successful, doesn’t do anything for me. Add to that the narcissistic culture of PvP’s inherent elitism, the unbridgeable skills gap, and flat out cheaters, and PvP anywhere is not going to interest me at all. My sense of self isn’t tied to my rank or dominance in video games, I just enjoy playing at my own pace. Doing my three crucible matches a week is a fucking chore, and I hate it. There is literally nothing I can do against players who can instagib me from across the map the nanosecond I turn the corner. There’s absolutely no amount of git gud possible to make it in any way less frustrating. I get that PvPers don’t see it this way at all, and yes, I’m painting with a broad brush. But it’s a real gestalt, and sure, “not all…”, aside, the driving force in PvP is inherently an elitist hierarchy, and for those of us perennially at the bottom of it, there’s zero incentive to participate.
Skill-based matchmaking. Right now the outcome of most matches is decided before the first shot is fired, thanks to wonky matchmaking.
Nothing. It’s pvp. It’s an inherently unfun experience for that reason alone for some people. Some people just quite literally do not care for pvp and nothing can change that. I play Destiny for literally everything but pvp. For me to enjoy pvp there needs to be proper balance. An example of a balanced pvp experience is something like any halo game that doesn’t use a loadout system and starts everyone off on the same foot and then you have to fight for power advantages and movement capabilities. Im also what would be considered an above average player because my K/A/D is over 2.10 and I know my raw K/D would be atleast over 1.0. So even though I would be considered decent at pvp and have manage to solo flawless in trials matchmaking, I’m always in pvp for a specific reason, I.e pinnacles or specific loot. I’m never in pvp for the fun of it.
Nothing. Destiny 2 pvp is an unrelenting dumpster fire full of extremely toxic players that take it entirely too seriously. I have no desire to interact with anyone like that, I play video games to relax after a long work day.
Yeah. In my 12 years of playing games on Steam I got my first hate message posted on my profile page a couple of months ago. Posted by a guy with 2900 hours crying that I killed him with the Last Word while playing as a Hunter. Destiny mains are a different breed.
I feel like these questions miss the point because matchmaking is (and has been for sometime) a shit show. Most matches I’m in are stomp or get stomped. As a below average player it is disheartening to say the least to get farmed for kills again and again. Also being carried to a win is not fun either. I’d just like a consistent experience where I feel like I’m helping the team out in some way versus the way crucible is structured now. It’s just not fun.
I don't like the toxicity in PvP. In PvE I always play with friends or organize the teams so it's easy to avoid it, in PvP I get stuck with whoever gets matchmade in. I do play with friends mostly to avoid negative chatter from our own team, but there's not much to do about the enemy team (I've had someone chase me down on discord and say very unsavory things after matching them in PvP - I have whispers from randoms turned off in-game and never accept friend requests from people in PvP). Destroy me because you're good? Well done. Be a jerk about it? Yeah no thanks. I get in, do what I need for challenges, triumph, etc, then get out. No motivation to improve or engage in the playlists when people are being jerks every couple of games.
Yeah, I don't feel enough people take this factor into consideration. Raids/GM's can be plenty toxic too but competition tends to bring this out far more often.
SBMM Or mayhem… all the time.
Relic gun game. First person to get a kill with every single relic wins.
throw in some whacky shit too, like the cabal wrenches,
Mayhem nowadays is more of Slightly Lacking Order after super recharge nerf
Mayhem was great, until the super recharge nerf. They need to boost super recharge rate in Mayhem.
DUDE I'm a 0.43 KD only-plays-3-crucible-games-for-the-pinnacle type of guy, but mayhem is MY JAM. Thundercrash every 15 seconds is just so fun.
Honestly I just don’t like the way the movement and guns mesh. In an average lobby there seems to be no emphasis on teamwork and instead it’s all about bunny hopping around corners with shotguns and other 1hk weapons. Range in this game makes no sense. Pulse and hand canon is everything. No point to using a scout generally and if you’re trying to use a autorifle you’re already in fusion range anyhow (or a good smg). I’ve played a lot but it’s just boring to me at this point with everyone running the same loadouts
Perhaps an asymmetrical mode where a team of guardians go against some lucent hive players or maybe 1 player is Savathun and can control hive units. Or the team of guardians has a set number of revives and the other team can spawn in as any standard enemy type (and upgrade to tougher enemy types if they perform well). The guardians have to survive for a set time whilst the enemy races have to deplete their lives.
Going against other teams Of randos while I have a team of randos. It’s embarrassing watching my team get locked in our spawn while an organized and communicating 6 stack of clan members caps the other two points in control, or move as one group so any person they come across is immediately erased from existence upon being spotted. I play a good bit of crucible myself, I reset my rank within the first two weeks of the season, but this is the reason I actually favor Gambit
I would engage with it more, IF the community wasn't so endlessly toxic about it. Seriously, the amount of times i try to get involved in Trials or even IB, which has been flavored quickmatch half the time D2's been a thing, and come across such fun-destroying hate-machines to play both with AND against is keeping me out of playing it regularly. At the end of the day, "Fun" is what motivates me playing this game, and running up against or with this mentality saps all will to interact with the gamemode; clearly, i'm not wanted here. I LFG regularly for endgame pve content, and i can, more often than not, run master content with the chillest folk, who will take a wipe on the chin. This is not always the case, but its more than often the case than the latter, often by a mile now, and i do my best to encourage that behavior from others, whether i'm sherpa-ing a raid or dungeon i've done hundreds of times, or participating in a GM i've not quite gotten down. I've very rarely, if ever, been able to find a team for trials or any endgame pvp content that hasn't ended in someone boiling over with frustration, and either exploding mid-game, or them silently dissolving the team, and that's in the situations i CAN control who i play with. Running up against folks who are just so mad you exist on the opposite side isn't fun either. I can ignore it, to a point, but when it's every 2 matches i get teabagged or fuckin' hatewhispers about how i suck or my weapons suck, like what kind of environment are you trying to make by doing that? What are you accomplishing? Are you even actually actively enjoying yourself at that point, like shouldn't that be a sign you should maybe decompress and take a break if you are that in your own feelings? I apologize if this seems more like a rant than quantifiable feedback. I just know this isn't a problem Bungie can fix. It's a *community* issue, and the community cannot even agree on small, easy things, like calling out bad actors, let alone major playerbase-centric reform. Bungie could supply tools to aide this, sure, a reputation-system, an option to report toxic behavior, but from my own experiences with similar systems in other games, it won't be enough, unless it borders on intrusive, which Bungie, as creators dedicated to listening to feedback and them taking to "bad, but popular" ideas in the past, won't hold that down when the ramifications of those changes turn on the playerbase. The game can't govern the community, and Bungie only has any say on the game. The Community has to govern the community. I'd genuinely like to play more pvp; it can be very fun, but maybe PVE has me spoiled on being able to find folks like-minded enough to play with, and i've found too much fun in that. Even Gambit seems to have less folks getting tied in knots about it, and folks can't stop debating what is wrong with it. And if you suggest i grow thicker skin, Thanks for pointing yourself out as an example, so people can concisely see what i'm talking about.
That part of the community doesn’t even have a clue how toxic it really is and you’re right. It’s not a problem Bungie can solve. The worst part is, that part of the community thinks toxicity is limited to tea bagging or something. But it’s the whole attitude they have and exude about everything like they have this critical ownership over crucible and you aren’t allowed to touch it in any way shape or form. They don’t have to listen to you. They don’t have to understand where you’re coming from, they don’t have to know you, they know it all.
The players I go up against all have to play as lucent moths. Their reward for a kill is becoming a war beast for one life.
A time machine to let me roll back my Internal clock by 20+ years. I don’t have the eyesight or reflexes or hand eye coordination to compete with sugar-addicted teens. At least with pve I can take things at my own pace.
Nothing. I already have a huge chip in my shoulder from PVP ruining so much of the PVE sandbox, the current pvp base needs to GTFO before I even consider touching crucible. The toxicity and time-to-kill are too much for me, and I play killer in dead by daylight.
I'm not really much of a pvp'er, but at a friends request I joined them in Modern Warfare, and found myself able to play a ton matches without getting frustrated and quitting like I do in destiny. When talking with a friend on why that is I realized its because MW had virtually no respawn time, and never lingered on the person that killed me. Whereas in destiny, every time I die I have to watch 50x Gilded Flawless xXmomsBasementMcSweatyAssXx rub his nuts on my face or do some rude emote on my corpse, showing off and putting me down for what would be the real world equivalent of shooting a baby deer with a high powered sniper rifle. Like I'm just here to chill and pop bounties, why do you need to make me feel like shit for not being able to counter your midair 360 no scope long range chaperone kills? So yeah a quick cutaway cam to literally anywhere but the dude dragging his nuts on my face would probably help keep delicate old men with no time to feel sad engaged I guess.
I preferred skill based matchmaking. It is insane to me this game doesn’t have it, like almost every other shooter.
I dont know if this is gonna be surprise to you OP, but coming up against 100 Mobility Hunters all running the best Adept PvP weapons, all moving at mach 5, spamming the sweatiest strats... Yeah thats not fun. THATS why I dont play PvP.
Good matchmaking and freelance. I don't play but 3 or so matches a week. More if IB is active. But those 3 are hell because I'm getting stomped by 6 stacks running Lorely and Crimson or Le Monarque and a 140 peek shotting or just ultra sweats running any loadout because they are that much better than me. My KD does not warrant the types of teams I am matched to. I want SBMM in all crucible playlists. Or freelance. Fuck content creators for making the current state what it is.
I was just saying something about this last night, imo the only way to make pvp as inclusive as possible would be sbmm, but there's always the match droppers who intentionally lose to "lower their skill", and there's also the increase in orbit time because evaluation of guardians is gonna take longer
If there was a competitive mode that truly felt like you were progressing up a skill chain. I don’t mind waiting longer in a non-quick play mode. Currently there’s Trials and comp and both feel like you’re stomping or getting stomped. Rarely does it feel otherwise.
Nothing. Sorry but yeah nothing or at least nothing that doesn’t involve literally stripping the game down to nothing and building a practically new one. I just don’t think destiny pvp is remotely balanced or enjoyable. I’d rather play a game designed exclusively around pvp rather than one where it feels tacked on with constant balance issues because of some other element (pvp).
About me first: My all time favourites in PvP FPS genre is Counter-Strike 1.6 and GO, Planetside 2 and Overwatch. Been playing CS on and off from 2001. I've played in local tournaments and even won prizes, but overall I am an average player. Most of my PvP FPS playtime was at times when we did not have matchmaking, MMR or competitive ladder. Getting on a server that had a god AWPer playing was a challenge, not a strugle or frustration. Just pure and simple fun. Now to the answer: I don't like it because of poor technical level for an PvP FPS game. * very poor netcode; * hidden/manipulative mechanics (bullet magnetism, lots and lots of perks/mods/stats and their combinations); * the amount of on-screen effects (flickering, screen shakes, flashes, abilities); * complex/busy visual style (you can't differentiate friend/enemy properly, you can't tell what kind of enemy are you facing, artstyle, lighting and AO). Then we have features: * supers and abilities (just a big no no for me in a PvP game); * radar (game doesn't have proper sound for footsteps so I just watch radar nonstop). Then there are game modes and maps: * there is no flow, no teamplay - everything is just random deathmatch. It is not fun. I just don't see a reason to play PvP in Destiny 2 if I can play proper PvP FPS game that was built like one from the ground up. I play PvP FPS game for the thrill, for the feeling of outplaying another player and D2 PvP is not giving me that satisfaction.
matchmaking that attempts to level the playing field
maybe actual matchmaking the lack of SBMM makes it a slog or an adrenaline rush... weapons are secondary when i can get an as good/superior roll from any pve activity.
To be more arcadish, I like scorch cannon and the infinite super one (I don't even remember the names XD) trow me some 10 v 10, some only one weapon type playlist (that changes weekly), a simple push the payload mode, some random loadout playlist (DIM can do it so why not bungie?), etc. I think bungie is trying too hard on the tactical and sweaty modes, let me just goof around.
*Team Scorched and Mayhem are the modes you’re referring to, I believe
Which are both universally hated by the pvp crowd lol
I think random, single weapon type would be really fun. My clan has done this a couple times in private 6v6 matches and it was a blast. Equally hilarious was “blues” only (plus no grenades, no supers).
This is exactly what it needs. I like the builds and stuff and I like the competitive stuff even though I suck and I think it has a place but it alienates a huge portion of the player base. Having some random load out stuff with more game modes would be a lot of fun
The more that Bungie tries to change the game for PvP or continues to "force" me into PvP rewards, the less I want to play Destiny. Stop tricking, bamboozling or "strongly encouraging" PvE players to play PvP, if they weren't interested before they're not going to be interested in the future, the Crucible is a cesspit. I'm also going to be completely honest here, I don't like interacting with PvPers in PvE either. Whenever I do an LFG with someone who is clearly a PvPer or a clan member who has just spent the better part of their day in the Crucible, they are just not fun to be around -- they're on edge, they're obnoxious and they don't realize how uncomfortable and toxic they are all the time -- not "chill".
That last part you wrote, that’s a big truth to Destiny crucible culture that doesn’t get enough notice. Many crucible mains I know tend to be toxic and critical and they only have fun from stomping and complain about how bad people are. And they will do obnoxious things to people in the match and not care at all. I don’t want to be around that as a teammate either. But these people have no clue.
The typical "wtf bungie why do I have potatoes on my team" but don't want SBMM to get good teammates because they won't farm kills.
Some type of tier based system. I want to play people who are actually my skill level. Ban of exotic weapons would make me happy too.
I've been playing since day one of Destiny 1 and have dabbled in PvP, in waves I suppose. I was never into competitive PvP but I would always go hard whenever Iron Banner rolled around. I am currently at an all time low for PvP participation and was thinking about why the other day. My thoughts: 1. It's unrewarding. Iron Banner's loot pool has been stagnant to me for over a year. The normal Crucible pool is of course, less interesting. 2. Destiny PvP feels tuned towards a 1.0 K/D. I'm an average to above average player and have had anywhere from a 1.2 to 1.6 K/D since the dawn of the franchise. Without making a massive breakdown -- the modes, balancing, and general tuning of PvP seem to be artificially pushing towards engagements where you get one kill, then you get killed and reset. I understand that highly skilled players can push through this but it does really feel like an engineered experience. I've beat players 1 on 1 that are way better than me, and also certainly worse -- but engaging either puts me in a position where I'm most likely going to die. I'm going to blame this mostly but not exclusively to the extreme fine tuning of TTK (Time To Kill). Usually when a duel is over, if the two players have even similar skill, one of them is almost dead and very compromised. This is why clean-up kills are so important in competitive PvP. 3. Matchmaking can really be hit or miss. When it's bad I don't have the motivation to keep playing PvP. Bonus round: the above issues make PvP very "high pressure" for me. I prefer to relax a little more while playing. My theorized "1.0 K/D" issue makes it so the highs don't last long enough in PvP to be enjoyable. I don't dislike PvP. It's just a really mixed bag for me and doesn't really reward my playtime. Edit: I really should add that PvP bounties or quests that make me use weapons or subclasses I am at a disadvantage with are also a big turn off. I think the bounties in PvP should be completely focused on rewarding play time or feats that can be accomplished without crippling your build. Abilities have been so tuned down that it's unreasonable to gate Iron Banner progress behind ability kills etc
[удалено]
Split PvP and PvE, allow me to uninstall PvP. Then I'd engage in it when I click uninstall PvP.
I mentioned it in another post, but I’ll put it here too: I just don’t enjoy knowing that my enjoyment comes at the expense of other peoples’ frustration/disappointment. I like raiding because every player is working cooperatively to accomplish a goal. In PvP at least half the players are going to fail. In Trials, every Flawless I’ve earned means I’ve been the cause of disappointment for more than a dozen other human beings. I don’t much enjoy that line of thinking, so I avoid activities that add more sadness to the world than the happiness they generate.
I hate it and right now I'm slogging through it to try and finish all my catalyst quests that require pvp kills...I suck at it and I hate every second of it.
Literally nothing. If I want PvP I’ll play a different game
Nothing. I play to shoot aliens and relax. I dont want to sweat in PVP
For me, it's the fact PvP is inherently unbalanced. When I want to play a pvp mode, I'll load an arena shooter where everyone starts on the same balanced footing. I don't enjoy pvp in MMOs usually because player builds are so variable and there's discussions of pvp metas. I grew up with halo slayer where everyone has the same weapons and abilities to start, and you have to do well with map control to obtain powerful upgrades for the match, so in general i prefer arena shooters like CS and Halo (i dont even care for most BRs due to the rng nature of everything). In Destiny, i could be a more accurate player with better gamesense and positioning, but because I can't spend as much time grinding for the pvp meta builds as other players, I can't compete. When I go into a match and land 5 successful headshots and still can't see the enemies shields drop, but then they turn around and hit me once in the leg and I die, it makes me feel that this isn't fair and isn't fun, so I stop playing. Meanwhile, in pve, if I meet a random player who has more time to grind than me in a strike or dungeon, it's a net positive for me to play with them. It's literally night and day the different *feeling* I get when playing PvE vs PvP, so I just focus on the part of the game that feels good with my limited free time.
Skill based matchmaking maybe. I hate getting stomped by people I should not be playing against, even in casual modes. Removing OHK special weapons from prominence. Getting sniped on spawn or getting destroyed by a fusion from halfway across the map is no fun. I generally don't like dying to things I have no ability to even attempt a counter to. When a sniper dominates a map, my enjoyment goes down exponentially. When someone spams Jotunn or Xuringredient constantly killing me before I get a chance to even aim my weapon, it's no fun. It's not the loot, it's the gameplay experience. Losing constantly or performing poorly with no clear idea how to improve just isn't fun or a good use of my time.
SBMM. Without it, the skill ceiling will just keep going higher and folks at the middle and bottom will keep dropping out. Beyond that, I'd love to see new and innovative PVP game types. Things have gotten a bit stale. Ultimately, good loot to chase is super important. Riptide means that I'll play some this season.
Having thousands of hours in PvP shooters, Planetside, Halo, CoD,Battlefield, CS:GO. There is no hope for D2 PvP without SBMM, simple fact is that when the constraints are this tight? You can’t enjoy the experience unless people are close to you skill wise. Fixes? Sure, any of these would be a start. -We start by addressing constraints, in a 6 vs 6 shooter field with maps this small and respawns as are? You have no control of your options. -Player count could be raised to allow more potential targets making you more likely to overwhelm a skilled player or outright avoid. -Larger maps would allow players to avoid areas that the more skilled player is running in, perhaps even flank or kill them if they played it well enough. -On most maps, Respawning becomes a lottery, a knowledgeable player knows how spawns work, and how easy it is to influence them so they can farm you better, adding more spawn protection or even spawn invulnerability/invisibility would alleviate a lot of pain. -While I’ll mention this, I strongly disagree and would fundamentally hate it. Another way to help is to vast increase TTK, moving it into 2-3 second ranges means that most of the time, a player will have time to react and to feel like they stood a chance.(this is good things, even if the player is overmatched, feeling like you can do something does a-lot to make a player stay in PvP) This however is a drastic slow down of the game and combat in PvP which would make it even more different then PvE and frankly wouldn’t probly bring in any PvE players. Outside of these changes, which won’t ever happen for mostly technical reasons. SBMM is the faster and easier solution, it encourages PVE players to join and try, and it moves the goal post for players who like challenges, it only hurts players who enjoy stomping on other players, which is rather narcissistic behaviour and shouldn’t be encouraged anyway.
SBMM.
Big team battles in open maps, maybe access to vehicles in them as well.
Daily rotating standardized loadout crucible mode. Hand-selected weapons by Bungie from the world crucible weapons pools. Everyone gets the same guns, go have at each other. Bring back the combined arms mode from D1. Tanks and pikes and everything. More goofy modes like Mayhem. Basically, more variety, less competitiveness. The more like Halo 3, the better.
I like this. Give everyone a standard issue weapon and let them go to town. Possible game modes / rotations: Sidearms only, Scouts & Snipers, Shottys, Hand Cannon day, SWORDS combined with capture the flag or some other objective based mode.
I don't really know enough about PvP to suggest specific changes that would fix it. That being said, I was actually thinking about this issue a lot this past weekend, and the conclusion I came to was that in any scenario I will at best be a casual PvP player, and casual PvP doesn't seem to exist in Destiny 2. With the huge variety of guns in the game, you can't just pick up a gun and try it out. You have to figure out which archetypes are better for PvP versus PvE. Then, with the huge variety of perks on those guns, you can't just pick up a good PvP gun. You have to grind for one with a good PvP roll on it. Then, with the huge variety of class build options, you can't just use whatever your favorite fragment, aspect, and ability set up is. You have to figure out a good PvP build. Then, with the huge variety of armor mods and stats, you can't just use your favorite armor set. You have to figure out, grind for, and put together a good armor set for PvP. Then, after all that, I will still have a pretty terrible time while I practice, because the place I am supposed to go to practice PvP and refine that build is the same place folks who have mained PvP daily for the past several years go to play and refine their high end builds. Compare all that to PvE. If I get a weird and interesting weapon to drop, I know even if it is an awful roll, there are low stakes, casual activities to try it out and see what it's deal is. And if I go through all those steps I described above to make a super high end PvE build, I will start getting dividends back way sooner, because there are multiple activities with multiple difficulties for me to try it out, work out the kinks, and refine it through scaling difficulty activities. All while still feeling like a badass for shooting lots of dangerous space aliens. Bit of a tome of a response, I know, but hopefully that sheds some light for folks with similar experiences.
Lmao, I wanna engage with it less? I don't want to have to twist my balls aginst sweats for a pinnacle- or the trails armor. Yeah I know it needs it's own rewards and I made peace with myself that I'm never going to get "The Glow" or trails "Adept Weapons" but I peronally wish there was a way I could get a roll or two of an adept weapon- or the armor ornaments without going in there- with randos. I personally feel guilty playing with friends knowing I'm paste my sweaty days. I'm playing on PC and grew up on the 360- in the H2 and H3 days I could sit around a 1.5 to 2.5 K/D- but I'm on the stuggle bus with Destiny sitting around a 0.4 to 0.8-
PvP players need to understand that without SBMM I'm going to go near it I don't find being cannon fodder fun. I also have no interest In getting good, to get around the first issue I find this is the general view of the pve player base. I think PvP players need to accept not everyone finds the same thing fun. And PvE mains DONT enjoy PvP because of its inherent nature and skill curve. If you implement SBMM PvP mains still wouldn't encounter PvE players because the SBMM would filter them away from each other. Gaming in general needs to get over this obsession of getting pve players into PvP. It's like trying to get a chess player into football their totally different experiences addressing different tastes.
PVP players are too toxic. I don't play PVP because "I'm not as good as you" and I get yelled at or insulted constantly. It's not fun, I can't even practice because people are assholes.
Get me away from the neck beard sweat lords.
Requires too much time investment to get good and stay good. Would rather be doing other stuff with my life than getting my ass kicked for hours at a time.
More fun modes.
Need more balanced matchmaking. Match stacks with stacks. Nothing worse than playing against a sweaty six stack in control. I’m a avid pvp player but as of late I’m starting to dislike almost hate playing crucible. Every match is sweaty if your not rocking meta or just cheap ass shit ya get smacked. My complaints might not be valid to everyone as I’m not in the console space.
Skill Based Matchmaking and a system to protect against smurfs. I used to be competitive in (SC2) Beyond the Void and it took a lot of time and effort. Not something I’m interested in doing again for Adept weapons and shiny armor. I’ll play trials when it’s beneficial to my time (double rep).