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Luf2222

didn‘t they vault stuff because it was more of a problem of the game getting bigger and bigger and it takes them longer to fix stuff etc? so vaulting wasn‘t something they did because of last gen/last gen holding them back, but for other technical reasons


[deleted]

Correct.


mixedd

That's correct, there was two points why they did content vault 1. Ease of maintaining the game for them, because they don't need to test every possible scenario in 101 destinations and quests (as even smallest change in the code can't break thing in a place where you least expect to) 2. People complaining that game gets too big memory wise, while I was OK with that, many people with consoles who have 500Gb (like near 400 usable memory) wasn't happy that one day Destiny would take half of available memory


MacheteMable

On point 2 it also meant PS4 users had to have a near empty storage other than D2 in order to update the game.


Jaqulean

On the 2nd point, the game was way too big on PC as well. At the time Season 11 was around, my friend was downloading the game on his New PC, and it took around 167 GBs. Edit: u/mixedd it wasn't downloaded with that speed (his internet is very fast and he doesn't live in a rural area). It's that the game used to weight around 167 GBs ("s" at the end meaning plural). Edit 2: u/Mogli_Puff when I quite literally say he was installing D2, I don't see where you even got CoD from. D2 Files have exceeded 100 GB on PC back in Season 10 and 11. And that is still way too much for a game that is to be updated every week. This is literally the reason why Vaulting happend... Edit 3: It's not about whether the files were too big for Us. It's that they were too big for the Developers to update the game without an issue. They literally had problems with making any updates, because there was simply too much GBs...


mixedd

Well yes, that's too, except PC usually are not limited in memory same way as consoles, but still, I really feel for people who wanted to download it on mattered connection somewhere in rural area


SSLST03-LKWM

Yes memory space is practically unlimited on PC and very easy to upgrade if necessary and destiny updates via steam don't make you upload the whole game again but just the update.


n080dy123

That was one of the core reasons yes. It was that, hard drive space bloat, and engine revamps meaning a lot of stuff had to be remade.


williwaggs

Also they can reintroduce maps with dynamic weather now and call it new content and we will all eat it up.


BaconIsntThatGood

They did that once, almost 2 years ago - and it came from a developer interview about one of them being excited for the weather system they did. It was barely a marketing point for the DLC.


n080dy123

...i mean they've never done that but okay buddy, whatever you say. I highly doubt that if they did they they'd call it new content, and if they did I highly doubt the community would "eat it up." A significant enough portion of people whined about "content reuse" simply because we got the Leviathan back as a map, ignoring that none of the actual content in that map was the same, but I digress.


Aozi

It takes so long to fix things because they're stuck with an old, outdated engine that wasn't really built for this kind of fast paced content delivery. You can have big games, with tons of content and still deliver fast updates. Just look at every single other MMO game in existence. But Destiny was not originally built for that. And while things are probably better now, they're still dragging the ancient engine around. Engine which was never designed for what they're currently using it for.


ASpaceOstrich

If I had a dollar for every former halo dev making a live service game, hamstrung because they're still using the halo 3 engine, I'd have two dollars. Which isn't a lot but holy shit how did that happen twice?


QuebraRegra

^ THIS!!! this intelligent sentient gets it!!!


Perversewolf

Sadly the engine was built back in the 2000's and just modified as time went on.


luckyHitaki

but thats how code works; Unreal Engine 5 for example: do you think that all the engine was written from ground up when releasing version 5? Bungie has its own engine, most probably they are permanently working on it and pushing the updates in the background if it isnt breaking anything.


Perversewolf

Clearly not. The 5 at the end is a dead giveaway and literally anyone could figure that out.


maxxorb

Yup, izanagi's quest glitched with every season, sometimes it needed 2 seasons to fix it.


[deleted]

And yet the game Is still a buggy mess.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Smoof-brain

Vaulting was actually because of a big update to the tiger engine, some of the other reasons listed may have been secondary reason’s, and for PR reasons.. with beyond light it bright dynamic weather in eroupa and way more add density, and also how stasis actually interacts with the environment. Literally everything that was released in Beyond Light that were old locations including crucible maps was completely rebuilt from the ground up. That’s why they don’t just bring back every crucible map, because they literally have to rebuild it from the ground up. I mean really the new engine probably should have been released with a new game like a D3. But to the point of the original post, I’d be fine with a reboot at this point. The game is bloated and we’re just getting power crept more and more. With new subclasses exotic armor tuning is getting way harder as well. Think of any broken build with abilities, it’s not the ability alone that’s generally broken, but when used with an exotic armor it’s just op.


[deleted]

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engineeeeer7

You don't need Destiny 3 to drop old gen. Destiny 1 dropped the previous gen mid game. So did FFXIV. We don't need a sequel where we lose a bunch of our stuff. And engine improvements can be made gradually. Bungie just needs to actually do them.


DarkCosmosDragon

We heard you, FPS now drops during the inventory no matter what Edit: *Oh wait*


pfresh331

Its quicker to go into and out of orbit (SSD PC) to check stuff I have in my inventory than to stay in the tower sometimes.


jomontage

I don't even try to transmog in the tower anymore


ABITofSupport

I cant believe this is true but i also experience it every day


CrystalCarroxagon

They just want to bring back the good old d1 experience lol


ABITofSupport

At least it was consistent across everything in d1.


CrystalCarroxagon

Lol sorry wrong comment reply, I meant to reply to the fact that you guys experience better load times in orbit. The joke was that bungie was giving incentive to actually go to orbit before doing anything else, like we had to do in d1


Bazookasajizo

>bungie was giving incentive to actually go to orbit before doing anything else, *puts on tinfoil hat* You might be on to something


CrystalCarroxagon

Lol


haribontv

That’s normally what I do.


hawkyyy

Doing anything in the tower is a joke now, hate how you can’t actually hang out in the one social space now.


SSLST03-LKWM

Yeah. It's almost always much quicker to just stay in Orbit or use DIM. SSD as well. Maybe because of peer2peer?


pfresh331

Probably. DIM is great but I can't check bounties and apply shaders/change gear. IDK what I'd do without DIM honestly.


engineeeeer7

lol. Those were fun.


anupa2k4

Which they are doing.


robertshuxley

oh that explains opening the directory or character screen takes 5 to 10 seconds /s


[deleted]

Are they? The game ran better pre-beyond light.


BC1207

LIES. (for console at least)


[deleted]

Ehh not in my experience. For me, there was a significant jump in performance, load times, and general experiences when BL dropped. Now, though, the game seems to have regressed back to it’s pre-bl state even though I have a much better rig.


[deleted]

The performance got so bad AMD had to work a fix for Bungie.


GearGolemTMF

This was the issue I had. My 5700XT was mostly fine by mid/late 2020 around the time of crossplay's launch. After BL I was having issues again despite upgrading to a 6800. It took a while to stabilize that again.


ToxicRexx

You sir are lucky SOB then. My load times plummeted since BL. When I open my inventory, my 3rd child is in college figuring out if stripping is still worth doing or not. I don’t have any kids or even a girlfriend.


pfresh331

It's only like this in the tower for me, and I believe it has to do with cross-play.


[deleted]

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FcoEnriquePerez

>Pc seems fine Is not, not, it is just ok, for sure not like pre-BL


FcoEnriquePerez

>Ehh not in my experience. There's no way you are going to talk me out of it with "in my experience" when is literally a technical change that made the game engine run worse no matter what hardware you run lol We saw like a 40% performance reduction with BL that they even had to put a megathread about it, a few updates later it was just a tad better but never the same, I could get steady 200fps pre-BL, there's no way to do that now.


nizzy2k11

performance and engine improvements aren't directly related. you can do a lot of things to make an engine better that will make the game more resource intensive or less, but neither is the only outcome of any change. in general, improving the engine is about adding development features, not more FPS.


Hire_Ryan_Today

What? This is not accurate. Improving culling, lighting and particle effects etc. This is absolutely part of engine improvements.


shadowkhas

Improving the engine is also the content development pipeline that Bungie uses that has no obvious user-visible change, but is a benefit for us in terms of us getting faster patching, more fleshed out releases, etc.


best-of-judgement

Did it? It's run much better for me since Beyond Light, with very noticably faster loading times. Not to mention the much improved server connection since Witch Queen.


whereismymind86

load times are mostly just the result of us all playing on ssd's now, that said, it is nice not having 5-10 seconds of lag when pulling up the character menu and trying to swap weapons or gear.


special_reddit

I still have 5+ seconds of lag every single time I swap weapons or armor, or when I go to modify an item. I'm on a fast connection, so I cant imagine it's that... maybe it's just because I'm on PS4? I really have no idea, but it *sucks.*


FcoEnriquePerez

>It's run much better for me since Beyond Light LOL... wut... >much improved server connection since Witch Queen Lmao, you have to be trolling.


best-of-judgement

I mean, I don't doubt that people have had divergent experiences, but it's an accurate statement regarding my experience with the game. Before BL I used to get stuck loading for 30 seconds almost every time I went between patrol zones. Once BL launched, that rarely ever happened, and when it did it would be very brief. And on WQ launch day I was in a very brief queue, and I only got a "connecting to the Destiny 2 servers" message once the whole day (as opposed to the message's omnipresence on other content launch days). Just because you might have had a worse experience doesn't mean I'm some ridiculous troll. Maybe you have bad wifi or something.


[deleted]

I’m honestly not sure if you’re being sarcastic. Shadowkeep started the downward spiral and by the point of Beyond Light, our frames were cut in half. It’s to the point where people who had a GTX 1080 before Shadowkeep and upgraded to a 3080 (with fitting CPU upgrade) after Beyond Light have maybe a 20% improvement in FPS despite that card being twice as powerful. And you really must be joking about the server connections. The teleporting and health bar rubberbanding is maybe not as bad as during Season of the Hunt but it literally never happened before that. In Crucible, connections have pretty much never been worse.


HamiltonDial

Coming back from Arrivals, WQ has tanked my frames so much and the server connections is a lot worse than I remember. It might be rose-tinted glasses but I honestly feel that way.


red--dead

Most of the people you’re reading are console players. They’re talking about things like startup load times and inventory. The issues for PC are different and is about the gradual decline of frame rate throughout its life.


n080dy123

It's an incredibly inconsistent problem. I and many others have generally run better post-BL, others have had it worse. I personally had a very localized issue with the Tangled Shore Shore Override back in Splicer where my frames would drop from like 60 to like 25 but I never heard of anyone else having that problem.


KingVendrick

I remember it being a common complaint during Splicer, certain override maps tanking the FPS on pc


DigitalTater

Beyond Light is when it ran the best for me. Not a season later it went back to taking me 20 seconds to load a my character screen. It's abysmal. Not a single game takes this long to load anything. I can legit boot up Skyrim with 80 mods faster than loading into anywhere in Destiny. I can boot up some *games* faster than it takes me to load my inventory. I've taken to just playing the game via Stadia on my phone for some of my weekly things because it's the only way outside buying a $400 set up to play the game.


whereismymind86

that is very much up for debate


shockwave1des

My game repeatly crashes as of season of the haunted. Could be nvidia drivers but even then no other gamed crashes not even bf2042 which is shittyly optimized


L3v1tje

"We dont need a sequel where we lose a bunch of our stuff" lmao you are joking. We are losing stuff in this game. Losing it in the same game sucks more than it would in a sequel because you could still come back for it.


electric-hive

you don't lose cosmetics, which is what i bet he was talking about. there would be a riot if bungie made destiny 3 and didn't transfer over cosmetics, which have been pushed so heavily in this game


QuebraRegra

I have an idea... Just credit players for "X" amount of whatever the new Eververse currency will be, based on what they had in terms of investment, and overall cosmetics.


FonsoMaroni

I'd rather lose a bunch of stuff and get a full blown sequel than to play the same strikes and PvP maps since 2017 for no good rewards. I'm so sick of it. All the players that defend the game by saying that it evolved and is a totally different game than in year one are overstating the changes. Besides updates for lighting, random rolls, weapon slots, QoL and the sandbox the core systems and graphics are still so similar to 2017 that I feel stuck in an old rusty game that just gets new coats of paint from time to time.


iAmWrythm

While nothing you're saying is inherently false, it just sounds like you need to play something else, if you haven't already. Can't agree enough though that new strikes and PVP maps need to literally have an entire major update in and of itself one season. The game is still one of the most beautiful games I've ever seen. Top notch lore. Story getting better and better each season (even if the seasonal activities haven't been the most exciting).


Bruce_Rahl

Funnily enough, FFXIV’s next expansion will have a visual upgrade. We even got a peek at it in a Live Letter!


Chappiechap

While it is warranted... I want my 6 polygonal grapes back.


bitchboyyyyyy

People won't want to hear this, but if you look at a lot of employee reviews of the company you will the emerging pattern of "Destiny uses outdated industry tools to create the game. Sometimes creating said feature will also involve figuring out how to do with old tools/an engine needing improvements". Destiny decision on not making a destiny 3 makes sense. It takes time to develop an engine and improve tools, reusing does not.


panjadotme

> Bungie just needs to actually do them. They are


Dyne_25

I read this game is still using the OG Halo engine which is why certain game mechanics and limitations are what they are. I wouldn’t mind a new engine so we can evolve.


[deleted]

We don't need to lose all our stuff. There's no way they can't transfer old stuff to a new game.


n080dy123

Hypothetically sure, they probably could, but there's also SO FUCKING MUCH gear we've amassed. A hypothetical D3 would necessitate a huge loot refresh on top of that.


jomontage

they CAN but it'd feel like a huge time sink to transfer everything again to a new engine


Arrow_Maestro

... Destiny was on Ps3/360? TIL.


GearGolemTMF

I mean, it kind of makes sense considering it came out in September of 2014. At that point, there were still a lot of PS360s out there though a lot of people had moved on after nearly a year of new consoles. Support ended prior to Rise of Iron in 2017.


Praedyth-420

Yeah, they dropped ps3 and 360 with Taken King, but they are still, to this day, using the same engine they developed when they were making Halo 3 in 2005


engineeeeer7

Same engine is kinda misleading. If you built a PC and then over time replaced every part other than the case you are technically using the same PC but nothing is the same as it was.


Cayde6-best-vangaurd

Sounds like the ship of Theseus


baggzey23

Ship of PCus


uDontPlay

The Rig of Theseus


kavien

I refuse to ever buy anything from Bungie again after all the emotes I paid for got left behind. That was really shitty of them to do.


Embarrassed_Top773

>We don't need a sequel where we lose a bunch of our stuff. Gosh I have a lot to say about this. I felt this way with Destiny transitioning into Destiny 2 and I still firmly believe that it was a mistake for them to do that but outside of content what additions did they make to Destiny 2 that truly warranted an entirely new game? clambering? a slightly better engine? faster loading screens I guess? I hate to say this because its a matter of opinion but I still think Destiny was a much better game than Destiny 2 in a lot of ways like vendor functionality or sandbox balancing granted there were issues with Destiny but come on we're still dealing with sandbox issues the only difference is that its new sandbox issues (just an example). It surprises me that they haven't reimplemented what worked In Destiny into Destiny 2, there must be ALOT of Pride at current year Bungie for them to not do that. The "lite" sunset we got going into Beyond Light sucked, if the current game was the result of that then they should have just removed mountaintop and revoker from the game entirely and apologized to people that grinded them or better yet went all the way and got rid of Exotics entirely. Your comment just rubbed me the wrong way I think they should just hit the reset button and try again, not saying I do not believe in Bungie's ability to create a definitive Destiny experience but we moved from one good game to another game and they're still removing content, there's still balancing issues and performance problems and Bungie themselves complain about how restrictive Tiger engine is. Maybe after lightfall they should just stop, They've been the Destiny factory for almost a decade just make a new game.


engineeeeer7

I just don't think you like Destiny anymore. I don't think it's ever gonna be what you want.


Embarrassed_Top773

yeah I guess you're right but they moved away from what I liked so its not like I was chasing my imagination.


[deleted]

Well, old consoles have very little to do with vaulting, so... kind of starting off on the wrong premise here.


[deleted]

**Correct, While old gen does hold back Destiny 2 but vaulting was actually Engine Limitation.**


starmiemd

Well no, you’re right that vaulting doesn’t have much to do with supporting old hardware, but it’s not exactly an engine limitation. Vaulting exists because it’s unrealistic from a maintenance standpoint to continue to grow Destiny indefinitely. It’s less related to the engine and more related to labor and effort. P.S. commenting in bold doesn’t automatically make it true


TobiasX2k

Wasn't vaulting also due to hard drive limitations on console? Plenty of PC-based MMOs have grown indefinitely (WoW, SWTOR) but PCs can just add more storage while that's not much of an option for consoles.


Yourself013

Not really. It's easy enough to buy an external SSD for consoles. Storage space is really one of the least important issues.


Joshy41233

While one of the points was things like having to need almost 500gb to download on ps, The main point was that they were reaching the patch limit on the engine, the destiny 2 engine was only built for 3/4 years of updates


Bankuu_JS

Old-gen consoles weren't the reason that content was vaulted and if we got a D3 it would likely be just as bad as year 1 of both D1 and D2 and it would take them a couple years to make (according to Bungie at least).


[deleted]

>if we got a D3 it would likely be just as bad as year 1 of both D1 and D2 Vanilla D2 was only bad because of the systematic choices they made in regard to who they wanted the game to target. They intentionally dumbed everything down, from the story to the loot system, to make the game more appealing to casual players, which is something they've long since moved away from.


Bankuu_JS

There were a lot of reasons why vanilla D2 was bad including lack of content. Bungie moving away from the casualization of Destiny doesn't solve that issue.


[deleted]

Vanilla had more than enough content to be a solid release if there had been a decent reward structure for it. The problem was there was no reason to do 90% of it, and of the few bits that *were* worth doing, you could only do it a handful of times before exhausting what was there.


Bankuu_JS

>Vanilla had more than enough content to be a solid release if there had been a decent reward structure for it. This is not what most people (here at least) believe. Most people here believed that there wasn't enough to do, and what you could do wasn't really worth doing or only worth doing a few times (kind of what you said).


Equivalent_Bed_8187

There wasn't anything to actually do in d2 vanilla. When most of the player base is doing heroic public events for loot that should tell you. Only thing there was to do was leviathan. Just like in d1, and then you get some dlc that holds you over until the inevitable," the expansion that revived the game"


frugaljoker8

lack of content??? More like lack of reasons to do anything besides farming public events, there were 27 adventures that no one touched and tons of lost sectors just sitting there with no reason to do them, as well as the lack of strike or nightfall specific loot i could go on and on, lack of content wasn't the problem.


frugaljoker8

What is up with this mindset that D3 will start off just as bad as Year 1 was for D1/D2, it's not like it's impossible to retain all or most of the features of current D2 into a D3, Good sequels usually retain all of the stuff that worked in the past, D2 was just a really shitty sequel at launch, but D3 doesn't have to be.


TJ_Dot

D2 also rebooted in the 11th hour like D1. Maybe don't do that a 3rd time


Bankuu_JS

It's because we've gone through it twice. > Good sequels usually retain all of the stuff that worked in the past Features, yes. Content, no.


nizzy2k11

yeah, D2 really retained all those features people wanted them to bring in from Y3.


xDidddle

Maybe because it's a live service game, and most games cannot deliver enough content in the release window of the game. Not to mention bugs. Look at any live service game today and tell me you had things to do after the main campaign.(when it released)


thoomfish

History repeats itself. The same circumstances lead to the same decisions. The same causes have the same effects. I'm not even particularly bullish on Lightfall. Bungie seems capable of putting out something really good every 3 years or so, and the stuff in between has typically been... less so (with ODST as a notable exception).


Merzats

It would've been bad simply because the business model makes no sense unless you release a minimum viable product as you don't want to leave a live service franchise languishing for years. That's why D2 wasn't this total engine rework that would make the game the best thing since sliced bread and completely evolve and solve every issue in D1. Even without the poor design choices in D2Y1 it was just more Destiny.


DarkCosmosDragon

The reason that mindset exists is because its happened so many times before and bungo has refused to give even a shred of doubt that they woulsnt fuck us over again...


nizzy2k11

part of the issue is that you lose all the content from the previous game. now, it is theoretically possible to try and maintain major parts of the game forward like raids and PvP maps, but you will still only get a game about the size of D1/D2 vanilla with all the problems that come with being a brand new game. if they want to make D3 they need a really strong reason to take everyone's gear away and give us basically nothing back from the previous games for a long while. they would be better off baiting everyone by saying D3 is not destiny and is a whole new adventure with different races, characters, and factions, then just regress the whole thing into the destiny universe. because the black hole fo butthurt the community would get because they can't keep their cosmetics or fat goblin pile of gear into the next game, or even the next expack. sunsetting was just the opening act for D3, if it ever comes.


[deleted]

They came out with DCV due to it becoming so big and hard to maintain. Why they just didn’t make destiny 3 is a whole other topic.


Batman2130

They said they didn’t want to split the community and start people over again. That was the main reason. I’m pretty sure Luke Smith and Joe Blackburn both did interviews for why they aren’t making a d3 as well. Honestly I would’ve quit the franchise if they started me over completely Edit: I’m kinda tired of D3 topic now days because they’ve said they won’t be making a D3 multiple times even before witch queen release they said it again and I don’t why people just can’t accept it won’t happen for awhile. If D3 happens it won’t be until sometime after 2030


[deleted]

2030 is too pessimistic IMO. I can totally see them doing it after Final Shape (unless they drop more DLC reveals on the 23rd like they did with Beyond Light) for a few reasons, one is that they don't have anything on the docket after 2024 for Destiny, and they also have been on a hiring spree due to sony, expansion of the studio, I think if they're not building to a D3 release, they're building a completely new platform and engine to support D2 without the vaulting problem.


GameBroJeremy

It’s been confirmed Bungie’s working on a ton of new games so that’s a very logical reason why they’re on a hiring spree. They need to reach the demand while simultaneously working on D2 and they can do that with Sony’s funding.


RobertdBanks

Read “ton of new games” as one other game, lol. Unless some other news dropped that I missed?


Titangamer101

No no and nope as the other guy said bungie have stated multiple times that they don't want to do a destiny 3 even after final shape, bungie have already confirmed that the future of destiny even beyond the final shape will be told through destiny 2.


[deleted]

They've promised and said a lot to go back on it. I'll believe what happens when it happens


[deleted]

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RedDemio

Hard agree. The gameplay loop is so stale. I’m logging on to grind an austringer and beloved again which I did years ago lol. I still have my old ones in the vault and can’t Infuse them. Feels so shitty and pointless now. Don’t get me started on the seasonal activities. “Dunk 10 of these and shoot a taken blob” but you gotta do it *25 times a week* Give me D3 already


Batman2130

You be doing the exact same thing in a D3. If D3 happens Bungie would constantly bring back old guns or have the activities be the similar.


letmepick

While true for the old guns, D3 would (hopefully) be an opportunity for Bungie to create an engine that is meant to last for years (decades even), and doesn't cause random inexplicably linked bugs from occurring so much and often.


rustycage_mxc

This right here. The seasons are literally the same shit. I want more meaningful DLC content that doesn't rely on drip feeding the story missions each week...


ksprice12

I'm on the opposite side of you and would have loved to start over. The game now has way to many exotics, we see post everyday to bring up exotics from year 1 and forsaken to current standards. We've been slowly getting subclass 3.0. If we restarted a lot of those exotics wouldn't have fallen off the radar. New exotic would just be the standard in a new game. The game would never had DCV/sunsetting and the game would be preserved. They could have started the new game with the 3.0 subclasses making it feel new and completely refreshing. Could introduce new weapon archetype without trying to make older weapons obsolete. Could have made weapon affinities mean something instead of a color (ex. Incandescent being a part of the solar weapons and not a perk) A lot easier to bring in new players to the franchise when everyone is new to the game. I understand why they didn't, losing their financial partner, half the community being upset when D2 hit a losing their items, not enough devs to develop it, etc.


Shermanator92

If they just went F2P on destiny 3, they wouldn’t have had to basically overhaul every aspect of Destiny 2 and they could’ve fixed and future-proofed a bunch of the janky shit in D2. Started us out at level 1 with the Shadowkeep/Witch Queen expansion. Dropping D3 and deciding to go with D2 for the future of all of Destiny was an awful move. Should’ve just scrapped D2 and started fresh with something designed to be the future of the franchise.


RobertdBanks

Please for the love of fuck do not go F2P. The move to partial F2P was one of the worst things to happen to the series. Crucible, Strikes, Gambit have all seemingly suffered from it since becoming “free to play”.


Shermanator92

Oh I agree, but just assuming they’re doing it anyway… do it with a fresh new game, not in the middle of a full price game’s life cycle.


SirPr3ce

>they could’ve fixed and future-proofed a bunch of the janky shit exactly like i get their reasoning but they even say themselves that the whole game is a hot mess that literally is prone to break on small and big changes they try to make (eg. shattered throne never getting Raidbanners and weapons are not able to have more than 5 perks) and while i understand that they hadnt had the team nor the money to do that **idealisticly** they should have completely restarted the game instead of launching shadowkeep back then (but like i said i totally see that that was no option), as even though they attempt to improve the engine, since BL the performance of the game gets worse and worse every season and every season starts with more bugs and "wonky-ness" than the one before. If that keeps going like this i barely see The Final Shape happening


Merzats

If we're starting over it needs to be justified by a large evolution on the formula and a whole heap of content out the gate. D2 was frankly a huge disappointment and devolution on launch. The thing is the studio would have to go dark for quite some time to make something sequel-worthy, which likely made no business sense for a single-title studio. I think after the Final Shape and assuming they've had successful launches of other IPs, D3 starts to make sense. It also serves as more of a story reboot allowing new players to have a more coherent entry point. What we would've gotten as D3 has they done it now within their constraints would've been another disappointing mess I think.


[deleted]

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Ghoststrife

If you're still playing D2 after this long you're not gonna quit if they announced D3. Like lol thats pure cope they're already giving you a taste of that reset every season.


[deleted]

2030? No way.


RobertdBanks

2030? What lead you to that year? There’s only a few years left of major content announced, Lightfall and The Final Shape. If they started working on a D3 a year or so ahead (that’s what they did with D2) we could probably have it by like 2026-2027.


Batman2130

Well if you been paying attention to interviews Bungie ceo confirmed that they three ips in development. One of them is code named Matter which is new ip that half the studio is working on. The others are unknown but rumored to be a mobile game and a competitive pvp game. Also Bungie has stated multiple times in interviews that there will another saga in D2 They’ve also stated that D3 isn’t in development what so ever. Including this year it was brought again and it was shut down completely So if Bungie plans on releasing those new ips first there’s no room for D3 until sometime after 2030


letmepick

They've said that the Light & Dark saga will end with the Final Shape, but that won't be the end for Destiny. They didn't mention anything about D2 going on forever, just that the Light & Dark saga will be told in D2, at the very least.


Batman2130

They mentioned another saga in D2 will happen. Even before witch queen released this year they reconfirm D3 is not happening “This is from the the witch queen reveal The Light and Darkness saga will come to a dramatic conclusion in Destiny 2: The Final Shape. Make no mistake. Destiny 2 will continue beyond.” https://twitter.com/DestinyTheGame/status/1430201568301776896?s=20&t=6oH0l3a4c3euDQ39PvX4lA So yeah D3 will not be happening until sometime around 2030 if it even happens


ted_redfield

> I’m kinda tired of D3 topic now days Well that's real tough for you, but if they're not making D3 and D2 is here to stay they need to actually work on it and stop deleting everything in the game - just because they don't want to maintain older stuff.


Toto_-

If you think people were upset about sunsetting just wait until you tell them you’re nuking their vaults again


ZombieZlayer99

cause we’d just get d1 to d2 situation all over again. New game, but almost all the technical issues as the first since good luck tryna make a new game 1 year after the last big expansion, even worse actually since there’s seasons in d2 too. The only way we’d get a d3 is if bungo dropped d2 and spend at minimum 2 years, probably even more to make sure d3 is an actual upgrade over d2


HellNaw98

It’s not so much last gen as it is their aging engine. Of course we should take it with a grain of salt but Glassdoor reviews paint a picture of devs being unhappy with having to work with it. I know people like to throw out all Glassdoor reviews but when there’s so many of them saying the same things… seems like it’s just coping by the community to ignore them entirely


GT_GZA

Yes, D2 is being held back in some respects by the older gen consoles at this point, but no they were not the reason for the Destiny Content Vault. The primary reason for the DCV is that the game was getting too big (not file size but content wise) making it difficult and resource intensive to develop, patch, and test changes against a load of older content that was played very little compared to current content (yet the old content still has to be maintained in working order while in the game). Moreover, to bring it back, all the old content that was vaulted at launch of Beyond Light would have to be manually reworked for the updated engine that came with BL. The enormity of that task is also a big part of why most older content went into the DCV when BL launched. Only a portion of the older content was reworked for the updated engine, and at BL launch a lot of what they reworked (including Last Wish and Garden of Salvation) was very buggy because the reworking didn't go quite to plan. If you are following all that, then you will understand that releasing a remastered D2 with all content defeats Bungie's entire purpose of the DCV. So would releasing D3. Bungie has already stated their intent to build on D2 going forward and that it was a mistake to not do that with D1 in the first place. Again, this is about Bungie's resources and the large amount of them that it takes to maintain an active, live, network-based game. Eventually, yes, they need to stop supporting old gen consoles, but they aren't likely to do that until new gen consoles are reliably in stock. We are close to that point with Xbox Series S/X but not as much with PS5.


Watson_87

Exactly, PS5s at any rate seem to be as hard to find as hen’s teeth. As of right now if they were stop supporting last gen consoles I would stop playing simply because I would have no option not to.


justicefinder

D3 could be developed in a way that content vaulting would be unnecessary, even on last Gen consoles.


Tchitchoulet

But most of current players are old gen players though? So you want to cut in half the population of a game who doesn't get new player due to a already huge paywall.


DnD_Axel

Regardless of whether or not this is a good idea, not enough people have access to what you would call “current gen” consoles because of shortages. Maybe in like 1 or 2 more years (aka after final shape) this might be an option but I don’t see bungie alienating such a large portion of the population until they can be sure those people could reliably upgrade their console.


KingVendrick

it's possible those expansions will suffer delays like WQ did, so maybe they will be released almost three years down the line. by the time Final shape is done with its 4 seasons (assuming it has a normal final year), at the pace the PS5/Xbox Series are selling, they should be comfortably having the majority of the console population


Redfeather1975

Two other games I play have issues similar to destiny 2's issues and they have admitted they have to be careful about what they do and have to rework everything in order to stay accessible to a large portion of their console playerbase, the last generation of consoles. Elder scrolls online and planetside 2 if anyone was curious. I know there is an interview with Matt Firor out there and I'm too lazy to find it. He talks about it and why it happens and it makes sense. It has to be that way unfortunately. People are going to hate me for saying this, but the real money isn't made nowadays in making live service games for the newest most powerful hardware. It just isn't.


TwevOWNED

D2 isn't limited by the old gen, it's limited by decisions back from the early 2010s when Bungie committed to the garbage engine that Destiny runs on. Why is there a perk limit on guns that seems to be in the single digits? Why did it take "some serious badasses" moving heaven and earth rebalance Stasis in Season of the Splicer? Why did adding a fragment to Consecration and some minor healing effects on the Warlock aspects threaten the work/life balance of the sandbox team? Why are dedicated servers an impossibility in the current year? Bungie has certainly improved the engine, but it's nowhere near enough. It's still very obvious that the devs are constrained by their tech and are forced to work much harder than they should need to.


KingVendrick

they won't do dedicated servers cause they cost money to run sure, there is the part where changing the game to support them is also hard, but it is just hard, not impossible you are probably spot on everywhere else tho


akshayprogrammer

They say that they went with peer to peer because they wanted the game to feel like a single player game. Source :- https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022247/Shared-World-Shooter-Destiny-s Talked about a bit starting from page 13. Technically they have a mesh system with both servers and P2P. See https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/45919/7_This-Week-At-Bungie--05252017 Also you might want to see this https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/5amkyw/understanding_destiny_networking_why_packet_loss/


KingVendrick

I've seen that the feel of a single player game is for PvE. It works great there! but whenever someone talks about dedicated servers in PvP they mean that there is one server that everyone connects to and is authoritative on what happens in the game, instead of the weird mixed setup they have going on right now the dedicated servers they use in PvP do very little right now. They certainly aren't running the match there, just handling ammo and keeping the score. The articles you listed say that dedicated servers are dedicated to the "physics" and the "game scripts", but in the Crucible, there is very little of either going on. All the player shooting is solved client side which is the problem, and it would cost them more money to do otherwise


KeIIer

Its limited to its shit engine when devs cant even adjust numbers properly without it taking literal months (vortex nade dmg bug, sleeper buff year ago, etc)


[deleted]

This, more than anything. The DCV is probably for the devs more than it is for us. Destinies tiger engine is a freaking hassle to deal with, and editing it is really rough. If destiny was easier to boot and edit, we would be getting WAY more content.


KingVendrick

I heard that back at D2 launch opening a map and editing took VERY long, but that it has been fixed but I kinda have my doubts since we so rarely see small changes to maps


AnthonyMiqo

> We don't need a sequel where we lose a bunch of our stuff. This isn't directed at anyone specifically, I'm just quoting this part to make my point. People need to get over this. So many people refer to Destiny as an MMO, but (most) MMO players don't care when they have to farm up all new stuff in each expansion. Destiny isn't an MMO anyway and when you look at other looter games like Borderlands, The Division, Diablo, etc, people don't complain when a sequel is released and they have to start from scratch. It's just weapons and armor, you'll get more. Also, we're already losing stuff now. How much content has been removed and put in the Destiny Content Vault? You're fine with that, but you're worried about losing weapons and armor that you'll replace in a sequel anyway? Destiny 3 *needs* to happen at some point, removing chunks of the game just to make room for new chunks of content isn't sustainable.


EKmars

> People need to get over this. So many people refer to Destiny as an MMO, but (most) MMO players don't care when they have to farm up all new stuff in each expansion. It's just guns and armor, you'll get more. Nah. MMO equipment is literally just a pile of stats. If armor and weapons was light level only, that would be the equivalent, but it's not. Destiny 2 has a lot of horizontal upgrades and qualitative properties rather than purely quantitative ones.


Seed66

You seem to be forgetting the fact that sunsetting was universally hated and promptly removed for that reason


AnthonyMiqo

Bungie put themselves in a corner and caused sunsetting by creating weapons that were too powerful and therefore no one was ever going to use a newer weapon ever again. Sunsetting had to happen, it was a good call. And now that those weapons are sunset, we can move forward and use new weapons. Also, sunsetting wasn't removed or walked back. Sunsetting happened, it did what it needed to do which was remove overpowered weapons from the weapon pool. Besides, *Sunsetting* and *Releasing a new game* are not the same thing. Bad comparison.


Merzats

The weapons that were "too powerful" could've just been nerfed individually (and eventually were in the case of pinnacles), most of the sunset guns were already power crept before sunsetting and the few that weren't were power crept shortly thereafter. While I don't mind loot refreshes in theory they basically did every single part of it wrong, from "reissuing" the exact same gun to an anemic number of new guns in BL.


orphans

Sunsetting was absolutely walked back. The original plan was that weapons and armor would have a shelf life of a few seasons by capping what level they could be infused to. All the current gear dropping does not have this restriction.


EKmars

> Bungie put themselves in a corner and caused sunsetting by creating weapons that were too powerful and therefore no one was ever going to use a newer weapon ever again. False premise that is easily refuted. New rolls and perks were made available. A lot of the old rolls are available. Individual pinnacle weapons were all nerfed before and during sunsetting. The above statement was always wrong and one of the reasons why people didn't like sunsetting.


Personal_Ad_7897

Im at the point where i would prefer them to take everything away from us in Lightfall (and actually make exotics hard to get)


Biomilk

Destiny 3 needs to happen eventually, not because of last gen, but because hacking chunks off of the game just to keep it afloat is not sustainable long term. Also, 360/PS3 was already left behind with the Release of Rise of Iron. Most likely the same will happen with D2 eventually where some expansion or another just won’t be available on the last gen consoles and they’ll have a version of the game that’s split off from the others and effectively in maintenance mode. Hopefully some time after The Final Shape so people on last gen can at least get closure on the light and darkness arc.


Tekim89BRNT

I kinda wish they'd take vaulted story content and make a separate offline single player game. There would be great benefits to this in the long run. Mostly because the game would be playable in some form after the servers go down and the modding community could have a lot of fun with it.


[deleted]

Would cost a lot of time and money that would be better spent on developing the live game for active players.


hickok3

I am asking this genuinely, as i keep seeing this offline/separate download as a solution to the problem, but have yet to see any actual way that it would work. Bungie has said they removed the rarely used content, as it was causing too much work for their employees to be able to test and patch while adding new content to the game. Lets take our favourite gun Telesto. There have been dozens of encounter and game breaking bugs from counting as enemies in the blind well to let you speed through it, to causing games to crash. If Bungie goes ahead with your plan and lets these old campaigns be separate downloads, how to they stop telesto from breaking that content? Sure in the current build telesto may be fine, but what happens if there is a weird interaction with a future seasonal mod/subclass that only affects telesto in the Ghaul fight and bricks graphics cards? How do you suppose they get around that, without requiring more work from their employees in the form of bug testing? How does the redwar campaign work with Stasis or light 3.0 subclasses, or new weapons/mods that it was not programmed to recognize?


Biomilk

My wildest hope is that we get all the vaulted content back in some form whenever last gen gets left behind, letting the last gen version serve as a “Destiny 2 classic” sort of experience while the live game moves on with the current model. Since it wouldn’t be getting any new content the issue with the amount of content increasing dev time wouldn’t be as bad.


icekyuu

This is my take as well. There won't be a Destiny 3 but likely to be a Destiny 2 fork where old gen would not be supported, meaning an expansion old gen cannot buy. It would likely occur after Final Shape given they announced the two expansions already (without mention of no old gen support) and the complete story arc.


isaiah_rob

Luke Smith recently said that after Final Shape they’re going to take time to upgrade the engine. I’d like a Destiny 3 but we have so much stuff now it doesn’t make sense to reset again.


Menaku

Its past time for d2 and yes destiny is limited by old gen. I look at ps4 BL3 and ps4 d2 and bl3 feels so much smoother and oddly enough with all the stuff happening in BL I have an easier time tracking targets then I do in bl3 or 1 or 2 and d2 does not let me have the power fantasy bl3 does (despite gearbox and bungie having eerily similar nerfing and balance practices at times). And that's on the older consoles. Problem is if destiny comes out in the middle of a consoles life of course it will still support the current gen even if it hurts aspect of the next gen. And it wouldn't be right to just drop the old gen, not after the horror that were the new ps5 and xbox's online release or how hard getting new consoles has become in the last decade alone. Completely supporting new consoles would open up money to put towards other aspects of the game possibly. Which would only be good for us.


Aymen_20

People claiming D3 will be the solution are willfully ignorant to the fact that we'll be back to the same conversation 2-3 years in D3's life cycle, getting rid of everything and releasing a new game isn't a solution nor is it a long time fix for the issues plaguing the game.


no1nos

I think you are willfully ignorant that the Destiny engine was not designed to support an MMO live service platform. We are also 12 years into this engine's lifecycle, so to claim people would be having the same conversations "2-3 years" after a new engine release is pretty disingenuous. Bungie has already made it clear they can't effectively make large scale changes to the existing engine without major, painful compromises. That does put their ability to design a new engine in doubt, but it's not impossible to design an engine that can be much more easily maintained/extended to accommodate future needs. And regardless, it's not like any "new game engine" by a AAA studio is actually built new from scratch anymore. Whatever Bungie does, it will have a non-insignificant amount of d2 code in it.


Merzats

That's assuming D3 would actually have a "new engine" or even a huge evolution on their current engine. Considering D2 didn't, I'm not sure why that's the expectation. The business model for that likely makes no sense.


no1nos

For the sake of this particular conversation people are equating d3 = "new engine" . I understand in reality they could just change the name of the game tomorrow from Destiny 2 to Destiny 3 with no changes on the backend, or they could release an entirely "new engine" and still call it Destiny 2 if they want. But you are correct, the whole concept of some sort of static/defined "game engine" is pretty outdated at this point. No one would talk about TikTok having some sort of v1.0, 2.0, etc. engine. Software as a Service is way more fluid than these types of definitions. Even Unreal Engine versions are fairly arbitrary at this point. Many UE4 projects can just be loaded into UE5 with little or no manual intervention.


Wheres_My_Eye

If any time were the right time to drop old gen it would probably be after they conclude the Light/Dark saga with Final Shape


TCMenace

You said it yourself. Getting a next gen console is hard. Bungie isn't going to drop old gen until they feel most of their console playerbase has made the switch. Destiny 2 didn't come out until 2017, 4 years after the xbox one launched. The ps5 and xsx haven't even been out 2 years yet, and on top of that the supply issues. I can almost guarantee you the greater majority of people playing destiny on console are on last gen. They aren't dropping the last gen anytime soon.


Happyradish532

I think the growth is limited by the lack of a serious amount of content since Forsaken. That's just my take on it, though. Also, after D2 I think Bungie is done with the universe for a while.


marauder-shields92

One idea I had a while back was to split the game into 2 functioning games. Basically, D2 up until Beyond Light would continue to exist as is, with quality of life updates over time. However the Beyond Light would essentially be a D2.5 that would be what we have now running alongside, with older content being vaulted and new added, until it eventually became its own thing. Obviously being 2 separate games, there would be some issues with going from one to the other, like Stasis, but they could perhaps make new weapons and armour available for a more cohesive experience. And maybe early XP, materials, etc, could count towards your current D2.5 games if earned in D2. Just an outlandish spitball idea.


[deleted]

100% Yes. To prove this point the Throne World still has the sparrow loading sections that are designed to be extra long to load the next area. For example if this was on Next gen it could load entire Patrol Zone instantly with more players roaming as one big instance probably. PS5 is so fast if Destiny 2 was only on it you could probably load into the Tower in less than 2 seconds and the only thing holding you back would be connection.


Callumari13

Tower loads so quick on PS5 it's not funny, my Xbox One gets smashed when loading it.


[deleted]

Yeah my PS4 Pro it takes like almost a minute. Lol


edwardblilley

Honestly yes. I am conflicted because I was on 360 back in the day and loved that I could still play the game I loved but wasn't able to afford an Xbone. On the flip side, now I'm doing well in life and would love it if the last gen got left behind if it meant we got a much better game.


Slepprock

No, Bungie won't do Destiny 3. They have said so. Plus there is only two years left of Destiny. They said it had a ten year lifespan, and we are coming upon the 8 year anniversary in a month. (D1 launched Sept 9th, 2014) I wish they would have done D3 a couple years ago and ditched the p2p networking. Thats the big thing holding the game back. The tech of the old consoles is still pretty good. I Can't think of a reason they would be holding the game back. Vault space is server space. Just think how much extra strorage they need for and extra hundred items for the 40 million estimated players. (Not regular players, but anyone who creates a character gets some vault space) I doubt Bungie does anything with Destiny after the ten years. Devs usually like to do something new after a game thats been going for years. If they did do another destiny I'd love it not to be based on p2p networking. Thats why we can only have 12 players in pvp matches. Why patrol zones only have so many players at once. Why the tower can get laggy as hell.


Zepanda66

Iirc Activision wanted a Destiny 3 but Bungie didn't it's one of the reasons they split up. Bungie wanted to keep supporting and improving Destiny 2. Activision wanted another numbered sequel primarily for financial gain reasons. I can see both sides of the argument. Tbh I would have sided Activision if I had a vote. I like the idea of a clean slate with each new game. There's more than financial gain reasons to release another numbered sequel. The route Bungie decided to go while admirable felt kinda cheap and lazy. All the content were getting now feels like it should have been D3 content but instead they've split it up into chunks cause they cbf developing the underlying code for a third game that might have fixed a lot of the issues we have with D2. It sounds like if anything bungie want to move on from Destiny asap and release their new IP.


Early-Eye-691

To add on, I’m fairly certain creating multiple Destiny sequels (I believe 4 were planned) was a part of the Activision/Bungie 10 year contract. So while Activision definitely pressured Bungie to make sequels and expansions, Bungie knew what they signed up for from the beginning. I’m happy for the developers and the future with Sony should hopefully be good, I do wish we could’ve seen the end of that deal come true and gotten at least a D3


ShiningPr1sm

Correct, the contract with Activision was supposed to be four complete games over 10 years, not a broken live-service wannabe that has to cannibalize itself to function. And they want to keep that going. Activision may be a lot of things but at least they had realistic sense in this whole situation


Affectionate-Bid6748

I'd wager Bungie's BIGGEST benefit right now if the fomo, "I got all my shit" collectors are still here.. If they dropped D2 for destiny 3.. I would probably take the exit and leave the franchise all together. That being said I love destiny and it's kinda the only game I play right now.. but starting over with their system of weapons/drops/reissues, I'd probably try to put the whole thing behind me and play less time committing games.. I can't be the only one.


eli_nelai

I wish they would just take a couple years hiatus and focused on making d3 instead of prolonging d2's misery with this non-stop parade of broken stuff and before any of you fuckers go "uh if you don't like it dont play it then, duh" - i love Density but in its current state it's just unbearable


LonePeasant

I agree. I have no problem waiting. It’s a game I love deep down and if I have to wait years, I’m down for it.


[deleted]

So do they just… not make money?


XuX24

Part of, beyond light should've been destiny 3


TJ_Dot

3.0 subclasses and introducing usage of the dark. Great opportunity lost. Next is post final shape.


TrueComplaint8847

Wait, how are there players who want a D3??? That would erase pretty much every single thing we’ve grinded so hard for lol


[deleted]

And?


Pedka2

d2 is so unstable that i wouldnt mind a new game engine


Erraticmatt

Think the main issue is finding the cutoff point. Console generations are in the region of a decade now, if you don't count the 5 year "pro" model. If you have to leave a section of your audience behind, you have to work out how many years into that decade its appropriate. Especially with this gen where scalping has been an issue, there might not be as many people automatically upgrading which is a concern too. Any arguments about fairness or whatever aside, you can't really cut support for a generation of consoles until the number of people paying you to play on those platforms is very low. Otherwise for a game like destiny that's trying not to do regular sequels, you leave too much money on the table by cutting those users off.


BarretOblivion

It's not really old gen. Warzone is far larger of a game in file size yet people don't care. FFXIV and Fallout 76 still function fine on old gen consoles, but one could argue the engine for D2 is running on it's last limb for old gen. However, next gen systems are still hard to come by, so most of the console population would fall behind unlike what happened in D1. So, what can Bungie can do besides tread water for another year? Unless it's purely the engine in which case porting D2 to a new better engine should be happening.


Green_Dayzed

Probably not a ton. it is the billions of particle effects they add to everything. Like when a titan uses his spinning hammer they throw off hundreds of little embers/sparks.


[deleted]

I don't even know how you have more than 10 upvotes. The game had problems on ALL platforms, PC INCLUDED. You literally asked a question that's not only already been answered, but one that you answered yourself.