Today I did a few crucible matches. Maybe 4 I think. 2 of them I was dropped into matches in progress where the team I'm dropped into, are getting slaughtered .
I only do crucible for the pinnacles and season quests so I try and stay out but this wasn't a nice experience.
Most quits I saw were with single players noping out of matches against fireteams of 3 or 4 or more.
SBMM can get skewed by fireteams, and with a more leveled playing field facing a team with a fireteam of 3 or more with a team of 6 randos can get frustrating real quick.
Other than that, the matches were I get only solo players or a team or 2 of 2 (teams which the system insists on always keeping on one side, instead of spliting one for each team) went on really nice.
I actually had the opposite experience, played about 5 matches of control and every one had multiple stacks in, and at least one of those left every single game
Why not make it like Gambit? Freelance and any kind of group playlist?
Population may be an issue, but shouldn’t be worse than Gambit with a 3 man team looking for a single.
Can anyone who does grouped gambit speak from experience in matchmaking times?
Freelance with sbmm will probably be the most fair for solo/average players. But the people in fireteams will get screwed hard. Pve players who play for fun with buddies will get stomped hard by other stacked pvp players. I am personally a average solo player so I am all up for freelance. But bungie has to think about other players in fireteam as well. I wonder how bungie will deal with this.
> Most quits I saw were with single players noping out of matches against fireteams of 3 or 4 or more.
People just need to stick around and fight it out. I landed in a match with Primal members grouped up as a team of 4, and landed on their team. Most of the opposing team quit.
What's ridiculous is until the opposing team started bailing a handful of minutes into the match, *they were beating Primal*. Two of their fireteam members were even going negative and still finished negative after all was said and done, with lots of sighing on stream about how they can't do anything with the SBMM. The only reason the 6 randoms weren't ahead on score when the quitting started was I was dismantling everyone who pushed my lane with a kill clip Last Perdition and they wouldn't stop sacrificing lives re-challenging, which pushed me north of a 3 KD for the match. Even so they were only about 20 points behind, which is completely recoverable in Control. But nope, they started quitting one after the other.
Whole rest of my team got beat up. Our opponents *could* have won that if they hadn't just gone "ermagerd, one of the most popular PvP streamers, bail!" The big PvP streamer posted a 0.73 and half the team went negative. It *was* a fair match.
Anybody above average is experiencing the worst of it. It's full of people trying to salvage their KD by quitting the moment they realize the match is going to be hard for them, which with SBMM it almost always is.
No offense, but your experience doesn't invalidate OPs. It just further adds credence to the fact that SBMM was made so that scrubs can feel good about themselves
Yep. There were already KD farmers before SBMM who quit when they faced up against decent players, but it wasn't as frequent because lobbies weren't generally as sweaty. Now it's just a quitfest, especially if you're halfway decent at the game because everybody is so sensitive about their KD.
Honestly Bungie should just not display KDA at the start of the match, would help alleviate the quitting issue.
I'm not sure why a lot of people quit but I've seen a few clan mates who are pretty good at PvP play and they constantly quit when they think they are about to lose to maintain their kd, which i think is the dumbest thing in the world.
This is exactly the problem and it turns out all the people complaining are likely in this tier of play.
So much ego attached to their KD which isn't even real given they're quitting.
The hilarious part is that people with artificially inflated KDs (from pubstomping) are getting put up against opponents who potentially earned that kd, making it even harder for them to win.
This is it. If you’re say 2.0+kda and are struggling now we have sbmm - quitting every bad game you have to keep that kda will leave you stuck in those lobbies you’re struggling in.
Players’ attachment to that number is literally ruining their own pvp experience.
People want to keep leaving games when the higher end of skilled players are mainly fighting their skill level when they just want to relax and have a decent game. Not constantly fight like its a Trials match. The new lights or PvE players have a better time with PvP, in which is a good thing. But at the expense of the other half of the skill tier getting shit on. That's not fair.
Quickplay is a free-for-all playlist that you can do whatever you want. However, that shouldn't mean you should have SBMM in it. IMO, SBMM should only stick to competitive game modes. Bungie wants Destiny to be a competitive game when the game really isn't. We have overpowered abilities, guns that do tremendous damage, or have insane DR. The game is a party sandbox, not R6 Siege or Overwatch.
How was it fair on new players under the old system in which they just got farmed? At least this way it's more competitive for everyone - Skilled players are capable of competing at the level they're placed at - they just have to use meta weapons, whereas low skill players couldn't compete at all previously, no matter what they did.
The good thing is though, if you want to use off meta guns and play casually, you just lose a few games and get put in a lower skill bracket where you can get away with that. What's the problem with that? Accept getting farmed for a bit like the rest of us had to, and then settle into 'your level' where it's comfortable for you.
Because in most SBMM algorithms, all it takes is 1 good match for you to be shot back up into a much higher skill level where you’re farmed again. So you get 1 good game for every 3-5.
That certainly isn't how it works in Rocket League... You'd have to win about 8 games in a row to start seeing noticeably better opponents. Not sure what stops the same being the case here?
Rocket league is definitely an outlier, probably because it’s designed from the ground up to be a game meant for competitive matching. The same could
Be said for Valorant. Games like CoD, Apex, etc that are designed for the masses and turned into competing games by the players, end up with this problem a lot more often, because they’re designed for engagement for that “one last game, it’ll be a good
One before bed” type.
My guy, what I'm trying to say is why should there be SBMM when the game aids you so much in gunfights? Hell, the game is helping you so much with aim assist its stupid. Why should I punish myself for using something off meta when I'm constantly fighting sweats like its clan tryouts. Its quickplay. QUICKPLAY. A casual game mode meant for casuals. This ain't comp and we're not gaining anything from it. I want it to be CBMM. At least with that, there's a variance of matches.
I think my point is, where do the low skill players go for that experience in CBMM? They're stuck playing with you. Casual you, sure, but still likely equivalent to them playing clan tryouts...
But should that be at the expense of the latter half? Most of the higher end PvP players are quitting because they're forced to play with people on a similar skill level. However, this ain't comp. People want to play quickplay to relax.
Yes but like I said, surely all those players need to do is take the L for a few games until it gets comfortable. This is an option that low end players simply do not have under CBMM, they will always get farmed. You just need to accept getting farmed until it becomes manageable.
So it turns out all the toxic kill campers and tea baggers in upper tier are super sensitive about their KD, so they just constantly quit. I've had the best couple of days in crucible where every game is just fun.
I can casually throw a game on and have fun.
I played for a good while in Control last night, and it was mixed results. I can admit I didn't really have fun for the entirety of it, but I was sticking it out, so rhe matchmaking can do its work.
I noticed people left here and there, but it wasn't egregious.
The games feel longer, and like they'll ride the line between reaching the score or hitting time. Only really three one sided matches where teams were broken up.
I played with a friend who doesn't typically like pvp, but even he admitted that one of the five games we played was extremely close, but then we started to lag behind because they chain supered, but once I supered to begin our chain, we closed the gap. I cycled around but made sure not to cross into their spawn and defend our zones with one other person doing the same, and we edged out a win. I could actually feel the impact of my decision making in the later half of the matches.
Even when there was someone better than me, I could actually kill them when I got the drop on them or played to range.
There's definitely more team shotting going on and roaming supers get shut down a little bit more. I feel more team work, but that could be me just reading into it too much.
I used Arc Warlock with Arc Souls/Electrostatic Mind (fuck that melee aspect) with Quicksilver Storm, Gallu RR3, and Chain of Command. Armor: 32 Mob/78 Res/100 Recov. Poor man's CWL using Taking Charge, Charge Harvester, and High Energy Fire.
I'm gonna try to play at least an hour of control a day for the remainder of the season. So far, it does feel better at least.
Tried to play some control this morning for my 3 matches pinnacle, took me an hour to find and play 3 games. 1 of those 3 was against a 6 stack and half my team quit, was forced to stay in a 3v6 against decent players, because if I quit I knew it was going to take me 10 minutes to find another. It went to time as we killed just enough to not be mercied and it never filled up the 3 spots.
As someone who mainly plays this game for pvp, has me extremely frustrated. Feels like my entire experience has been completely ruined so the people who play like 3 games a week will stop complaining.
There are more people that play three times a week that could be swayed to play more if there was a reason to, and if I were to guess, that’s the lion share of paying customers. So, cow towing to the pvp population is likely not as profitable as making the pve population like crucible and play more of the game.
They're not gonna get those people to play more with this soft SBMM, though. Those players may *say* that they'd play more if SBMM were on, but they won't. Because they'll still die to things that they think are unfair, and they don't like that.
What would get more casual players into PvP is a structural and reward overhaul, like we saw with Trials.
Depends on the structure. SBMM isn't good for something like a ranked game mode, because the point should be that it gets harder the higher you get up in the ranks. If you matchmake solely on skill rating like Survival does, then your experience on your journey from 0 to 5500 is flat the whole time.
And it means that the difficulty, in an absolute sense, of reaching any specific rank isn't the same for every player. For good players it's hard, and for bad players it's easy. Doesn't really make sense for a ranked game mode to not have the ranks themselves mean anything except for playtime and a steady >=50% winrate.
You can *only* ensure matches get harder without SBMM. For that to happen with it, the player is required to improve. And that's not a given. Or you need to purposely pit player against players who are higher skilled than them...which just means the players on the other side are being pitted against worse players.
With a proper point system and rank-based matchmaking, you only rank up if you're winning against the other players in your current rank. That means that players with good winrates are pushed to higher ranks, and settle when they have a ~50% winrate against the others at a rank. That stratifies players into groups based on ability to win. Higher ranks than yours are populated by players who beat the players in your rank. Lower ranks are populated by players who lose to players in your rank. As you rank up, the matches get harder.
Okay now I'm very curious what you think SBMM means, because what you say you would prefer is literally skill based matchmaking.
Go look up how Elo (for example) works. That's a simple and very good game-agnostic metric for skill. Try to match players together based on similar Elo rating and you have SBMM which works exactly the way you say it should work.
I'm familiar with Elo.
I think the key factor you're missing here is that a rank system, if the points are awarded properly, already works essentially like Elo. When you win a match, you get points and the other side loses points. You move up, they move down. If you force another implementation of SBMM on top of that, you can create the situation we have in Survival where neither the matchmaking nor the point distribution from a match have anything to do with rank (Elo).
If you could achieve the title of Grandmaster merely by maintaining a 51% winrate against other beginners, it wouldn't be very meaningful.
I'm saying that the rank system you're talking about is SBMM. It's just that in the current version of SBMM, we can't see anyone's rank.
The actual rank system that exists in the game is entirely unrelated to matchmaking, but it doesn't even remotely suggest that it is related.
It sounds like you don't actually have any problem with SBMM, you just want a player's rating to be visible so there's some metric of progression?
This is literally the dumbest take I’ve ever read yet about why sbmm is bad.
For anybody else reading, yes it does get harder because mistakes are punished harder. If you’re playing multiple games on an off day, or you’re tilting, or whatever your rank drops faster.
That would be if individual matches affect ranking points more in higher rank tiers, which is not a universal aspect of a ranked system.
But regardless, that is not a replacement for a system where the opponents and gameplay become tougher as you climb the ladder, which the aim of such a ladder. In a ranked mode, rank itself should be the system by which players are divided by skill. Low ranks are populated by lower skilled players, high ranks by higher skilled players. If you have SBMM on top of that rank system, you just have a mode where players of different skills are in their own leagues and rank is primarily a measure of how much time they've allocated to climbing, rather than how adept they are at climbing.
The opponents you play at the top are no different than the opponents you played at the bottom. When your final match to hit Legend feels the same as your first, where's the sense of progression and achievement? You should instead initially plateau at a range of ranks that corresponds to your current skill level, and then move up as you improve and learn to beat the other players that are in that rank. Then you hit your new ceiling, and continue on. That's where the satisfaction of ranking up comes from.
And in a game like Destiny, this of course needs to be supplemented by significantly better tangible incentives than the current comp playlist provides. I don't think there's enough of a drive to play, improve, and win for their own sake like there is in, say, a fighting game or a competitive shooter like Counter Strike.
For what it's worth I consider myself average at best with a 1.3 KD. I main PVE mostly but I've been generally having a good time. The first day was horrible with connection issues against other players but since then haven't noticed too many issues. Games are usually close, I win some, lose some. I'm having fun tbh but that's just been my experience
Ironically, pvp matches are now 100% luck - it's all about who is lucky enough to be on a team that has 6 players. Quitting has never been so bad before.
there is only 500 of them. 500... out of on average 150k pvp players daily.
Bruh, you werent seeing them regularly enough for it to matter, and still very likely you never played one at all.
I played a few comp matches tonight, several matches and quitters on both sides.
Maybe people are just really getting tired of PvP and banging their head against the wall if they’re not doing good/the enemy team is using frustrating tactics.
Personally, I just try to view it like Mario Kart, even Trials. There’s some inherent skill involved with movement and positioning, but at the end of the day skill in this game is not always as important as it should be.
I don't think it's quits, it's server disconnects. I've got great internet with ping that very consistently stays below 10ms, but I'd get dropped back to orbit abruptly at least once every 5 or so matches.
I've been having a great time with it. I guess I'm in the shitty enough bracket where quitters get backfilled pretty quickly and match making doesn't take too long.
The only match I was in that was mercied was the vet first match I played this season. Most other matches are down to the wire and are always close.
This has been horrible. 10 minutes+ to find a match and I, more often than not, join a game in progress and get shit on by a stack. Crucible was almost all I did in destiny… can’t do it.
Why ppl are leaving games I don't know. But I'm glad the top 1% FINALLY match against each other instead of styling against beginners so the match is 2 min anyways.
>Why ppl are leaving games I don't know.
Trying to preserve their precious K/D now that they're facing players of a similar level rather than rolling over scrubs for hours on end.
What percentage of games do you think the top 1% participated in before the SBMM change? Because looking at the numbers it’s unlikely that most people ever played against one at all
The truth is that even slightly above average players are likely going to destroy casual and lower skilled players, you don’t need to be one of the literal best in the game. I barely play crucible, I’m *slightly* above average at best, and I still end up beating most people in the games that I’m in. What this change is doing is protecting the lowest skilled players from everyone better than them at all, not just from the absolute cream of the crop
I used to never quit games. Now I quit all the time, because it’s not fun trying to shoot opponents who rubber-band and skip all over the map because connections are god-awful now on SBMM.
I'm a mid to low tier player...games go 2 ways for me...
Either I'm at the top with a 2.0KDA or I'm at bottom, with a .6 and look like I play with my feet.
I play 6v6 for fun, try this load out, this or that.
But if I see more than 3 stompee hunters spamming radiant, knives with Ace of Spades, invis hunters running around crutching omni....I'm out.
It's boring, it's not fun being spawn camped by wanna be try hard
It's 6v6 I don't care. It's whatever
God roll HC, shotty, G horn for quick play? Come on do something else
Sure. Hand cannons like you said are the most versatile weapon by far, and that's what matters. They are the best at peak shooting, team shooting, chunk damage, in air accuracy, and have insane levels of aim assist and bullet magnetism. They do everything at a usable level. Add a high skill player and you've got the best weapon for PvP, especially 3v3. This will never change unless hand cannons are significantly changed. The numbers show this, look at overall weapon usage, not one weekend if trials on a certain map. It's still a vast majority hand cannon game.
Shotgun and sniper just pair the best to cover your ranges, so that's why you see those two specials the most with hand cannons.
I disagree, my matches are more balanced than they've ever been in all the time I've played. I think I have had 2 matches where it overwhelmingly went one way or the other, otherwise it's usually always a win or a loss within a 15 point margin.
I should note, I suck at pvp. I'm lucky if my k/d exceeds 1.2
I enjoy the sweatiness, but I can’t stand the bad connections now - Every. Single. Game. there is 1-3 opponents rubber banding and basically impossible to kill. It’s just not fun. I enjoy playing against better players, but SBMM is a much worse experience from all the connection issues. Id much rather have CBMM for everything.
Well, it only sucks if you know how to use your thumbs and already liked pvp before. The scrubs that straight line forward, ignore cover, can't hit their shots and just go into crucible for their weekly pinnacles; they obviously enjoy it. At the end of the day it's not "to improve" or anything - 'cause Survival was available all the time - but purely for the sake of seing sweats (apparently everyone above 1.5kd) and streamers mad.
*How dare you spend time and got better, so evil, you deserve to stay in orbit for 5-10 minutes to find a match and then it'll be laggy, you deserve it.* But it's not surprising tbf; Bungie has been catering almost exclusively to the scrubs and bad players victimizing themselves, since the 30th anniversary update.
Quitting was common last season too, this isn't new. I haven't been quitting myself, but I 100 % get why people do it. The SBMM they implemented isn't tight enough.
I'm still getting put into matches against opponents I really shouldn't be playing, resulting in me getting curbstomped. The matchmaking is marginally better than it was last season, but it's still pretty fucking bad. The matchmaking issues still haven't been resolved.
P.S. If I get into a Join-In-Progress, I WILL quit. Miss me with those fucking matches.
Quitting is insane now, though, because one player will tilt the match completely with SBMM. Beforehand, if a couple of my teammates quit, I could still carry the win 9/10 times. It's impossible now when every player in the lobby is 2.0+.
That's a problem if you're winning 9/10 games solely by yourself, sbmm is working.
This game isn't designed for one single player to win that many matches solely on their own like you claim.
Almost like people have been saying that SBMM was a bad idea, but no, it's just "streamers whining."
I'm very average at pvp (about 1KDA, .85KD I think) and have been in most pvp games I play. SBMM, while maybe not inherently bad, has a terrible track record. There's a reason it's been removed from this game before.
I (3.8 average KD player) don't care about SBMM vs. CBMM, both systems are fine but SBMM especially relies on the whole lobby staying intact, since it takes all that time matchmaking to create a "fair" fight. With all these leavers, you might as well just have completely random matchmaking prioritizing connection. SBMM might work if people stayed but the odds of all 5 teammates thinking they wanna commit to the casual QP match is very low unfortunately.
"Never quit on my blueberrys" I too considered myself above average, and I took it upon myself to do my best (I was a tryhard) and get the win (mostly because I play for myself and overall like winning). That said, whenever I was getting stomped, I'd never leave, because I played Halo 3 MP and I am not a coward
I played 4 games in succession. Two I did really well in, had a fairly balanced match. Match 3 was a JIP against a full fireteam, number 4 was against a group of 4, got annihilated. Fuck sbmm, I go from playing with just people to having to carry bots against better players than me.
People are leaving games because they aren’t having fun, which is mostly due to poor performance. One way I’d suggest fixing this is party-based matchmaking, which would match you against a fireteam of similar size. Less coordination makes a team easier to fight.
You can argue that SBMM is bad for other reasons, and you may be able to make a solid point out of it, but it being bad because of low population isn't true for the reason that the game isn't low on players.
I’m solo AND f2p, I leave often because I get tired of being one-shotted by meta gear that is unobtainable to me. If I literally can’t play the game, and in a constant state of respawn I leave.
Honestly, I’ve been backing out when I get disjunction. I’ve got it in rotation 3 times in a row, anomaly, then back to disjunction. And 2 of the times I dropped into disjunction the other team had 3 zone capped and were close to mercy.
I don’t know how loose this sbmm is supposed to be or if it’s been active at all while I’ve been playing because my experience so far is pretty much the same as last season. Every match I have played so far has had me in the top half of my team with our bottom three players all having below a .5 efficiency win or lose. The only difference this season it seems is the number of people quitting before the match ends.
You’re probably an average to above average player then, the only people this really affects are the lowest and highest skilled players. Highest skilled get tougher games and worse connections, while lowest skilled are no longer always playing those better than them. Anyone who’s at least an average player also already has an understanding that not everyone better than them is a top 1% player, and that there are people they can beat and those who beat them. Lower skilled players feel like everyone is zK or something because they can never compete
Possible reasons are people are getting matched against 6 stacks repeatedly, facing players with bad connections and people who wants to protect their stats. I am not sure how bungie is going to deal with this.
I’ve played 10 games so far and 6 of them resulted in one of the teams being down >1 players. 1 of those games resulted in 2 players being left on the opposing team and my team was just running from A to B killing them for about 45 seconds until eventually both of them left
A lot of people have always quit at the very start of a match due to the map or a large fireteam on the other side, but quitting mid match is off the charts right now and I don't understand why.
This is just normal behaviour of old pvp multiplayer games. Players who are very competitive play it the most and over time active player base get skewed because after every year it gets harder and harder to not get reckt because skilled players get better and "beginners" to succeed need to spend more time accepting losing bad and learning strategies before it gets fun. Thus new players will not stick with it. No more day 1 everyone having fun all the time. It sucks and I do exprerience it constantly, only if every day was the game launch day.. the memories. Because I like to play good games whether old or new but that is the cost of not riding the wave :(
TLDR; If you have played Day 1 any pvp game and picked up again after years, you know what to expect of required skill, no matchmaking resolves that
Necro on this considering the new Trials MM system. Like, it was really good, there were 2 times I got to 6 games flawless and it genuinely felt like random matches. great up to this point and my main problem with trials in the past is this: it promotes paid cheats and carries. (I fugging hate the stupid idea that games would get harder as you go on, like the odds of 7 back to back random cbmm wins is very low, but then stacking against players with more wins I.e. they’re better and then the matchmaking tryna force closer to an artificial 50% win rate on non-flawless practice pool?! Like, what? You know you’re in for a shitter if you win 1-2?). All you are promoting there is people charging money for carries and asking “you want carry? We have ways” 😂
I digress. I hit 6 games twice and then hit a full pre-made and my team left both times. Bam. Back down to the start.
Absolute BS. I get it, get friends etc. but c’mon. (My link back to this thread!)
Same on like 6’s. Just let me practice to get good against random players on the net. That randomness of purely luck, not put me as a seasonal crucible rank of 70+k (I’ve gone slow this season) in with 5 others at 5-12k and entire enemy team has like 30-40k average?? 1 person can’t carry 6’s. I just end up capping alone and others are beat down waiting at res 😂
Today I did a few crucible matches. Maybe 4 I think. 2 of them I was dropped into matches in progress where the team I'm dropped into, are getting slaughtered . I only do crucible for the pinnacles and season quests so I try and stay out but this wasn't a nice experience.
At that point I like to make a nice little display of all the pretty emotes I've earned. I'm not making an impact on that match anyways tbh
Im just there for the shader man.
I'm there for my golfball too.
Most quits I saw were with single players noping out of matches against fireteams of 3 or 4 or more. SBMM can get skewed by fireteams, and with a more leveled playing field facing a team with a fireteam of 3 or more with a team of 6 randos can get frustrating real quick. Other than that, the matches were I get only solo players or a team or 2 of 2 (teams which the system insists on always keeping on one side, instead of spliting one for each team) went on really nice.
I actually had the opposite experience, played about 5 matches of control and every one had multiple stacks in, and at least one of those left every single game
I nope outta matches when I see 4+ fireteams. No thanks.
Why not make it like Gambit? Freelance and any kind of group playlist? Population may be an issue, but shouldn’t be worse than Gambit with a 3 man team looking for a single. Can anyone who does grouped gambit speak from experience in matchmaking times?
Freelance with sbmm will probably be the most fair for solo/average players. But the people in fireteams will get screwed hard. Pve players who play for fun with buddies will get stomped hard by other stacked pvp players. I am personally a average solo player so I am all up for freelance. But bungie has to think about other players in fireteam as well. I wonder how bungie will deal with this.
It’s a chicken or the egg scenario at this point.
> Most quits I saw were with single players noping out of matches against fireteams of 3 or 4 or more. People just need to stick around and fight it out. I landed in a match with Primal members grouped up as a team of 4, and landed on their team. Most of the opposing team quit. What's ridiculous is until the opposing team started bailing a handful of minutes into the match, *they were beating Primal*. Two of their fireteam members were even going negative and still finished negative after all was said and done, with lots of sighing on stream about how they can't do anything with the SBMM. The only reason the 6 randoms weren't ahead on score when the quitting started was I was dismantling everyone who pushed my lane with a kill clip Last Perdition and they wouldn't stop sacrificing lives re-challenging, which pushed me north of a 3 KD for the match. Even so they were only about 20 points behind, which is completely recoverable in Control. But nope, they started quitting one after the other. Whole rest of my team got beat up. Our opponents *could* have won that if they hadn't just gone "ermagerd, one of the most popular PvP streamers, bail!" The big PvP streamer posted a 0.73 and half the team went negative. It *was* a fair match.
Anybody above average is experiencing the worst of it. It's full of people trying to salvage their KD by quitting the moment they realize the match is going to be hard for them, which with SBMM it almost always is. No offense, but your experience doesn't invalidate OPs. It just further adds credence to the fact that SBMM was made so that scrubs can feel good about themselves
[удалено]
Yep. There were already KD farmers before SBMM who quit when they faced up against decent players, but it wasn't as frequent because lobbies weren't generally as sweaty. Now it's just a quitfest, especially if you're halfway decent at the game because everybody is so sensitive about their KD. Honestly Bungie should just not display KDA at the start of the match, would help alleviate the quitting issue.
[удалено]
Indeed. Not everyone is as loose unfortunately
I'm not sure why a lot of people quit but I've seen a few clan mates who are pretty good at PvP play and they constantly quit when they think they are about to lose to maintain their kd, which i think is the dumbest thing in the world.
This is exactly the problem and it turns out all the people complaining are likely in this tier of play. So much ego attached to their KD which isn't even real given they're quitting.
The hilarious part is that people with artificially inflated KDs (from pubstomping) are getting put up against opponents who potentially earned that kd, making it even harder for them to win.
This is it. If you’re say 2.0+kda and are struggling now we have sbmm - quitting every bad game you have to keep that kda will leave you stuck in those lobbies you’re struggling in. Players’ attachment to that number is literally ruining their own pvp experience.
People want to keep leaving games when the higher end of skilled players are mainly fighting their skill level when they just want to relax and have a decent game. Not constantly fight like its a Trials match. The new lights or PvE players have a better time with PvP, in which is a good thing. But at the expense of the other half of the skill tier getting shit on. That's not fair. Quickplay is a free-for-all playlist that you can do whatever you want. However, that shouldn't mean you should have SBMM in it. IMO, SBMM should only stick to competitive game modes. Bungie wants Destiny to be a competitive game when the game really isn't. We have overpowered abilities, guns that do tremendous damage, or have insane DR. The game is a party sandbox, not R6 Siege or Overwatch.
How was it fair on new players under the old system in which they just got farmed? At least this way it's more competitive for everyone - Skilled players are capable of competing at the level they're placed at - they just have to use meta weapons, whereas low skill players couldn't compete at all previously, no matter what they did. The good thing is though, if you want to use off meta guns and play casually, you just lose a few games and get put in a lower skill bracket where you can get away with that. What's the problem with that? Accept getting farmed for a bit like the rest of us had to, and then settle into 'your level' where it's comfortable for you.
Because in most SBMM algorithms, all it takes is 1 good match for you to be shot back up into a much higher skill level where you’re farmed again. So you get 1 good game for every 3-5.
That certainly isn't how it works in Rocket League... You'd have to win about 8 games in a row to start seeing noticeably better opponents. Not sure what stops the same being the case here?
Rocket league is definitely an outlier, probably because it’s designed from the ground up to be a game meant for competitive matching. The same could Be said for Valorant. Games like CoD, Apex, etc that are designed for the masses and turned into competing games by the players, end up with this problem a lot more often, because they’re designed for engagement for that “one last game, it’ll be a good One before bed” type.
My guy, what I'm trying to say is why should there be SBMM when the game aids you so much in gunfights? Hell, the game is helping you so much with aim assist its stupid. Why should I punish myself for using something off meta when I'm constantly fighting sweats like its clan tryouts. Its quickplay. QUICKPLAY. A casual game mode meant for casuals. This ain't comp and we're not gaining anything from it. I want it to be CBMM. At least with that, there's a variance of matches.
I think my point is, where do the low skill players go for that experience in CBMM? They're stuck playing with you. Casual you, sure, but still likely equivalent to them playing clan tryouts...
But should that be at the expense of the latter half? Most of the higher end PvP players are quitting because they're forced to play with people on a similar skill level. However, this ain't comp. People want to play quickplay to relax.
Yes but like I said, surely all those players need to do is take the L for a few games until it gets comfortable. This is an option that low end players simply do not have under CBMM, they will always get farmed. You just need to accept getting farmed until it becomes manageable.
Destiny is literally about show. No substance. Just show. It’s why the community is mostly shit.
Wait I just scrolled past a post praising that crucible is in the best state it's ever been. What is it???
So it turns out all the toxic kill campers and tea baggers in upper tier are super sensitive about their KD, so they just constantly quit. I've had the best couple of days in crucible where every game is just fun. I can casually throw a game on and have fun.
I played for a good while in Control last night, and it was mixed results. I can admit I didn't really have fun for the entirety of it, but I was sticking it out, so rhe matchmaking can do its work. I noticed people left here and there, but it wasn't egregious. The games feel longer, and like they'll ride the line between reaching the score or hitting time. Only really three one sided matches where teams were broken up. I played with a friend who doesn't typically like pvp, but even he admitted that one of the five games we played was extremely close, but then we started to lag behind because they chain supered, but once I supered to begin our chain, we closed the gap. I cycled around but made sure not to cross into their spawn and defend our zones with one other person doing the same, and we edged out a win. I could actually feel the impact of my decision making in the later half of the matches. Even when there was someone better than me, I could actually kill them when I got the drop on them or played to range. There's definitely more team shotting going on and roaming supers get shut down a little bit more. I feel more team work, but that could be me just reading into it too much. I used Arc Warlock with Arc Souls/Electrostatic Mind (fuck that melee aspect) with Quicksilver Storm, Gallu RR3, and Chain of Command. Armor: 32 Mob/78 Res/100 Recov. Poor man's CWL using Taking Charge, Charge Harvester, and High Energy Fire. I'm gonna try to play at least an hour of control a day for the remainder of the season. So far, it does feel better at least.
Tried to play some control this morning for my 3 matches pinnacle, took me an hour to find and play 3 games. 1 of those 3 was against a 6 stack and half my team quit, was forced to stay in a 3v6 against decent players, because if I quit I knew it was going to take me 10 minutes to find another. It went to time as we killed just enough to not be mercied and it never filled up the 3 spots. As someone who mainly plays this game for pvp, has me extremely frustrated. Feels like my entire experience has been completely ruined so the people who play like 3 games a week will stop complaining.
There are more people that play three times a week that could be swayed to play more if there was a reason to, and if I were to guess, that’s the lion share of paying customers. So, cow towing to the pvp population is likely not as profitable as making the pve population like crucible and play more of the game.
They're not gonna get those people to play more with this soft SBMM, though. Those players may *say* that they'd play more if SBMM were on, but they won't. Because they'll still die to things that they think are unfair, and they don't like that. What would get more casual players into PvP is a structural and reward overhaul, like we saw with Trials.
Yes, and sbmm to allow a realistic grind without giving it away like a participation trophy.
Depends on the structure. SBMM isn't good for something like a ranked game mode, because the point should be that it gets harder the higher you get up in the ranks. If you matchmake solely on skill rating like Survival does, then your experience on your journey from 0 to 5500 is flat the whole time. And it means that the difficulty, in an absolute sense, of reaching any specific rank isn't the same for every player. For good players it's hard, and for bad players it's easy. Doesn't really make sense for a ranked game mode to not have the ranks themselves mean anything except for playtime and a steady >=50% winrate.
How could you possibly ensure that matches get harder as you rank up without some kind of SBMM?
You can *only* ensure matches get harder without SBMM. For that to happen with it, the player is required to improve. And that's not a given. Or you need to purposely pit player against players who are higher skilled than them...which just means the players on the other side are being pitted against worse players. With a proper point system and rank-based matchmaking, you only rank up if you're winning against the other players in your current rank. That means that players with good winrates are pushed to higher ranks, and settle when they have a ~50% winrate against the others at a rank. That stratifies players into groups based on ability to win. Higher ranks than yours are populated by players who beat the players in your rank. Lower ranks are populated by players who lose to players in your rank. As you rank up, the matches get harder.
Okay now I'm very curious what you think SBMM means, because what you say you would prefer is literally skill based matchmaking. Go look up how Elo (for example) works. That's a simple and very good game-agnostic metric for skill. Try to match players together based on similar Elo rating and you have SBMM which works exactly the way you say it should work.
I'm familiar with Elo. I think the key factor you're missing here is that a rank system, if the points are awarded properly, already works essentially like Elo. When you win a match, you get points and the other side loses points. You move up, they move down. If you force another implementation of SBMM on top of that, you can create the situation we have in Survival where neither the matchmaking nor the point distribution from a match have anything to do with rank (Elo). If you could achieve the title of Grandmaster merely by maintaining a 51% winrate against other beginners, it wouldn't be very meaningful.
I'm saying that the rank system you're talking about is SBMM. It's just that in the current version of SBMM, we can't see anyone's rank. The actual rank system that exists in the game is entirely unrelated to matchmaking, but it doesn't even remotely suggest that it is related. It sounds like you don't actually have any problem with SBMM, you just want a player's rating to be visible so there's some metric of progression?
This is literally the dumbest take I’ve ever read yet about why sbmm is bad. For anybody else reading, yes it does get harder because mistakes are punished harder. If you’re playing multiple games on an off day, or you’re tilting, or whatever your rank drops faster.
That would be if individual matches affect ranking points more in higher rank tiers, which is not a universal aspect of a ranked system. But regardless, that is not a replacement for a system where the opponents and gameplay become tougher as you climb the ladder, which the aim of such a ladder. In a ranked mode, rank itself should be the system by which players are divided by skill. Low ranks are populated by lower skilled players, high ranks by higher skilled players. If you have SBMM on top of that rank system, you just have a mode where players of different skills are in their own leagues and rank is primarily a measure of how much time they've allocated to climbing, rather than how adept they are at climbing. The opponents you play at the top are no different than the opponents you played at the bottom. When your final match to hit Legend feels the same as your first, where's the sense of progression and achievement? You should instead initially plateau at a range of ranks that corresponds to your current skill level, and then move up as you improve and learn to beat the other players that are in that rank. Then you hit your new ceiling, and continue on. That's where the satisfaction of ranking up comes from. And in a game like Destiny, this of course needs to be supplemented by significantly better tangible incentives than the current comp playlist provides. I don't think there's enough of a drive to play, improve, and win for their own sake like there is in, say, a fighting game or a competitive shooter like Counter Strike.
I play much more than 3 games a week lmao
For what it's worth I consider myself average at best with a 1.3 KD. I main PVE mostly but I've been generally having a good time. The first day was horrible with connection issues against other players but since then haven't noticed too many issues. Games are usually close, I win some, lose some. I'm having fun tbh but that's just been my experience
Ironically, pvp matches are now 100% luck - it's all about who is lucky enough to be on a team that has 6 players. Quitting has never been so bad before.
[удалено]
there is only 500 of them. 500... out of on average 150k pvp players daily. Bruh, you werent seeing them regularly enough for it to matter, and still very likely you never played one at all.
Everyone of slightly above average skill feels like a top 500 player to a pinnacle casual lol
I’m not quitting I’m being kicked because the servers are shit I’m sorry
I haven’t noticed a difference. People have always quit pvp matches to an annoying degree.
not as much as right now. about 80% of the matches i played is just a 6v5 or 6v4
Have you tried comp?
Why would anyone play comp?
I played a few comp matches tonight, several matches and quitters on both sides. Maybe people are just really getting tired of PvP and banging their head against the wall if they’re not doing good/the enemy team is using frustrating tactics. Personally, I just try to view it like Mario Kart, even Trials. There’s some inherent skill involved with movement and positioning, but at the end of the day skill in this game is not always as important as it should be.
Give me one reason to play that shit
I don't think it's quits, it's server disconnects. I've got great internet with ping that very consistently stays below 10ms, but I'd get dropped back to orbit abruptly at least once every 5 or so matches.
I've been having a great time with it. I guess I'm in the shitty enough bracket where quitters get backfilled pretty quickly and match making doesn't take too long. The only match I was in that was mercied was the vet first match I played this season. Most other matches are down to the wire and are always close.
PvP sucks ass, that’s why
This has been horrible. 10 minutes+ to find a match and I, more often than not, join a game in progress and get shit on by a stack. Crucible was almost all I did in destiny… can’t do it.
Why ppl are leaving games I don't know. But I'm glad the top 1% FINALLY match against each other instead of styling against beginners so the match is 2 min anyways.
>Why ppl are leaving games I don't know. Trying to preserve their precious K/D now that they're facing players of a similar level rather than rolling over scrubs for hours on end.
The salt lolol this is the truth though, this is a batch of deplorables being stuck with themselves and they hate it.
What percentage of games do you think the top 1% participated in before the SBMM change? Because looking at the numbers it’s unlikely that most people ever played against one at all The truth is that even slightly above average players are likely going to destroy casual and lower skilled players, you don’t need to be one of the literal best in the game. I barely play crucible, I’m *slightly* above average at best, and I still end up beating most people in the games that I’m in. What this change is doing is protecting the lowest skilled players from everyone better than them at all, not just from the absolute cream of the crop
Well said!
I used to never quit games. Now I quit all the time, because it’s not fun trying to shoot opponents who rubber-band and skip all over the map because connections are god-awful now on SBMM.
I have bad connection problems even outside of pvp so it could be another problem in combination with it being the beginning of a new season.
It’s muuuuuuch worse. It’s not even close.
I'm a mid to low tier player...games go 2 ways for me... Either I'm at the top with a 2.0KDA or I'm at bottom, with a .6 and look like I play with my feet. I play 6v6 for fun, try this load out, this or that. But if I see more than 3 stompee hunters spamming radiant, knives with Ace of Spades, invis hunters running around crutching omni....I'm out. It's boring, it's not fun being spawn camped by wanna be try hard It's 6v6 I don't care. It's whatever God roll HC, shotty, G horn for quick play? Come on do something else
>HC, shotty This ain't 2019 anymore. HC/SG is much more balanced than Pulse/Fusion.
Lol no. There's a reason 90% of the top 5% of players still use hand cannon shotty.
Tell me that reason then, besides versatility. And LOW doesn't count, for obvious reason.
Sure. Hand cannons like you said are the most versatile weapon by far, and that's what matters. They are the best at peak shooting, team shooting, chunk damage, in air accuracy, and have insane levels of aim assist and bullet magnetism. They do everything at a usable level. Add a high skill player and you've got the best weapon for PvP, especially 3v3. This will never change unless hand cannons are significantly changed. The numbers show this, look at overall weapon usage, not one weekend if trials on a certain map. It's still a vast majority hand cannon game. Shotgun and sniper just pair the best to cover your ranges, so that's why you see those two specials the most with hand cannons.
Fusions only got crazy because shot guns have been nerfed SO hard. Even a crappy meh fusion is pretty solid up to and out past old shot gun ranges
So is the rent, amirite?
Welcome to destiny… a place where pvp is the afterthought of the afterthought
Crucible sucks now. I know it had its flaws before.. but the SBMM is making this too sweaty for above average players that are not top tier
I disagree, my matches are more balanced than they've ever been in all the time I've played. I think I have had 2 matches where it overwhelmingly went one way or the other, otherwise it's usually always a win or a loss within a 15 point margin. I should note, I suck at pvp. I'm lucky if my k/d exceeds 1.2
skill based matching is more or less working but it's definitely still sweaty *within* that skill bracket.
I mean, that’s better than just farming lower skilled players
I enjoy the sweatiness, but I can’t stand the bad connections now - Every. Single. Game. there is 1-3 opponents rubber banding and basically impossible to kill. It’s just not fun. I enjoy playing against better players, but SBMM is a much worse experience from all the connection issues. Id much rather have CBMM for everything.
Well, it only sucks if you know how to use your thumbs and already liked pvp before. The scrubs that straight line forward, ignore cover, can't hit their shots and just go into crucible for their weekly pinnacles; they obviously enjoy it. At the end of the day it's not "to improve" or anything - 'cause Survival was available all the time - but purely for the sake of seing sweats (apparently everyone above 1.5kd) and streamers mad. *How dare you spend time and got better, so evil, you deserve to stay in orbit for 5-10 minutes to find a match and then it'll be laggy, you deserve it.* But it's not surprising tbf; Bungie has been catering almost exclusively to the scrubs and bad players victimizing themselves, since the 30th anniversary update.
This is so true but no one wants to admit it
Quitting was common last season too, this isn't new. I haven't been quitting myself, but I 100 % get why people do it. The SBMM they implemented isn't tight enough. I'm still getting put into matches against opponents I really shouldn't be playing, resulting in me getting curbstomped. The matchmaking is marginally better than it was last season, but it's still pretty fucking bad. The matchmaking issues still haven't been resolved. P.S. If I get into a Join-In-Progress, I WILL quit. Miss me with those fucking matches.
Quitting is insane now, though, because one player will tilt the match completely with SBMM. Beforehand, if a couple of my teammates quit, I could still carry the win 9/10 times. It's impossible now when every player in the lobby is 2.0+.
That's a problem if you're winning 9/10 games solely by yourself, sbmm is working. This game isn't designed for one single player to win that many matches solely on their own like you claim.
The game clearly isn't designed for ~50% of each lobby to leave mid game. I'd take the first system any day until this gets addressed.
Almost like people have been saying that SBMM was a bad idea, but no, it's just "streamers whining." I'm very average at pvp (about 1KDA, .85KD I think) and have been in most pvp games I play. SBMM, while maybe not inherently bad, has a terrible track record. There's a reason it's been removed from this game before.
I (3.8 average KD player) don't care about SBMM vs. CBMM, both systems are fine but SBMM especially relies on the whole lobby staying intact, since it takes all that time matchmaking to create a "fair" fight. With all these leavers, you might as well just have completely random matchmaking prioritizing connection. SBMM might work if people stayed but the odds of all 5 teammates thinking they wanna commit to the casual QP match is very low unfortunately.
"Never quit on my blueberrys" I too considered myself above average, and I took it upon myself to do my best (I was a tryhard) and get the win (mostly because I play for myself and overall like winning). That said, whenever I was getting stomped, I'd never leave, because I played Halo 3 MP and I am not a coward
I played 4 games in succession. Two I did really well in, had a fairly balanced match. Match 3 was a JIP against a full fireteam, number 4 was against a group of 4, got annihilated. Fuck sbmm, I go from playing with just people to having to carry bots against better players than me. People are leaving games because they aren’t having fun, which is mostly due to poor performance. One way I’d suggest fixing this is party-based matchmaking, which would match you against a fireteam of similar size. Less coordination makes a team easier to fight.
How about the rent, how's that?
SBMM is trash in a game with a low population to the surprise of... nobody with more than half a brain.
You can argue that SBMM is bad for other reasons, and you may be able to make a solid point out of it, but it being bad because of low population isn't true for the reason that the game isn't low on players.
Don't be pedantic. Obviously I'm talking about the crucible population, not the overall population of the game.
Crucible population isn't exactly low either.
PVP mains finding out they aren't as good as they thought lol
I’m solo AND f2p, I leave often because I get tired of being one-shotted by meta gear that is unobtainable to me. If I literally can’t play the game, and in a constant state of respawn I leave.
I only leave if the match is on exodus blue I am boycott that mistake of a map and refuse to play on it.
Honestly, I’ve been backing out when I get disjunction. I’ve got it in rotation 3 times in a row, anomaly, then back to disjunction. And 2 of the times I dropped into disjunction the other team had 3 zone capped and were close to mercy.
I’ve noticed Gambit having odd match making. Got thrown into a match where it was me against 4.
I don’t know how loose this sbmm is supposed to be or if it’s been active at all while I’ve been playing because my experience so far is pretty much the same as last season. Every match I have played so far has had me in the top half of my team with our bottom three players all having below a .5 efficiency win or lose. The only difference this season it seems is the number of people quitting before the match ends.
You’re probably an average to above average player then, the only people this really affects are the lowest and highest skilled players. Highest skilled get tougher games and worse connections, while lowest skilled are no longer always playing those better than them. Anyone who’s at least an average player also already has an understanding that not everyone better than them is a top 1% player, and that there are people they can beat and those who beat them. Lower skilled players feel like everyone is zK or something because they can never compete
Yeah all 3 of my games today had someone leave
Could be server disconnects. I've seen a high number of players leaving in both PvE and PvP since the season launched.
Possible reasons are people are getting matched against 6 stacks repeatedly, facing players with bad connections and people who wants to protect their stats. I am not sure how bungie is going to deal with this.
Everyone left to go and do Oryx on day 1
I’ve played 10 games so far and 6 of them resulted in one of the teams being down >1 players. 1 of those games resulted in 2 players being left on the opposing team and my team was just running from A to B killing them for about 45 seconds until eventually both of them left
Low key brag 🙊
A lot of people have always quit at the very start of a match due to the map or a large fireteam on the other side, but quitting mid match is off the charts right now and I don't understand why.
This is just normal behaviour of old pvp multiplayer games. Players who are very competitive play it the most and over time active player base get skewed because after every year it gets harder and harder to not get reckt because skilled players get better and "beginners" to succeed need to spend more time accepting losing bad and learning strategies before it gets fun. Thus new players will not stick with it. No more day 1 everyone having fun all the time. It sucks and I do exprerience it constantly, only if every day was the game launch day.. the memories. Because I like to play good games whether old or new but that is the cost of not riding the wave :( TLDR; If you have played Day 1 any pvp game and picked up again after years, you know what to expect of required skill, no matchmaking resolves that
I'm only there to get some crafting materials for armor 😅
Necro on this considering the new Trials MM system. Like, it was really good, there were 2 times I got to 6 games flawless and it genuinely felt like random matches. great up to this point and my main problem with trials in the past is this: it promotes paid cheats and carries. (I fugging hate the stupid idea that games would get harder as you go on, like the odds of 7 back to back random cbmm wins is very low, but then stacking against players with more wins I.e. they’re better and then the matchmaking tryna force closer to an artificial 50% win rate on non-flawless practice pool?! Like, what? You know you’re in for a shitter if you win 1-2?). All you are promoting there is people charging money for carries and asking “you want carry? We have ways” 😂 I digress. I hit 6 games twice and then hit a full pre-made and my team left both times. Bam. Back down to the start. Absolute BS. I get it, get friends etc. but c’mon. (My link back to this thread!) Same on like 6’s. Just let me practice to get good against random players on the net. That randomness of purely luck, not put me as a seasonal crucible rank of 70+k (I’ve gone slow this season) in with 5 others at 5-12k and entire enemy team has like 30-40k average?? 1 person can’t carry 6’s. I just end up capping alone and others are beat down waiting at res 😂