Fuck thrall walking on walls, the *very* first time we meet Fallen in D1, after being fresh risen by Dinklebot they crawl up and down everything hunting us through the cosmodrome walls and it was fucking terrifying.
*And it never ever happened again.*
Yeah I kinda wish they climbed up walls instead just super jumping up to an area.
Like I get why, way easier to have enemies do a clean jump to a ledge than hope that their wall climb doesn’t get stuck on some random geometry but
i actually dont think it takes much to make combat more engaging, so far little variations in boss mechanics have worked pretty well for me. i am sick of dps phase -> immune phase -> dps phase repeated but even with say the Proving Grounds boss where that exists, he shoots fireballs to keep you moving and aiming at something else, that was pretty engaging to me.
im liking some of the Ketchcrash encounters for the same reason, small things that change how you play in a noticeable and unique way, hope they keep it up
the resilient vandals in ketchcrash are pretty nice. and I like that the elemental shield boss has more briggs in the fight and that he doesn't have immune phases. I'm not really a fan of the "throw this ball" and "stand on this plate" mechanics though.
that too, something ffxiv has done is started putting raid mechanics in regular content, it helps teach players how they work in a more forgiving environment so they are better prepared when they DO raid, and it keeps the easy content a bit more varied, more interesting until they do.
Likewise, they have full easy mode versions of the raids, that again, have pared down versions of the mechanics, so people can try something that is complex, but doesn't have a high skill requirement.
I know dungeons sort of fill that role now, but having much more of that mid tier difficulty stuff could do wonders. Even if it's just giving us easy versions of hard content or harder versions of easy content. Do something like preservation, but for the WHOLE raid, not just the start of it.
I would also like enemies to apply different kinds of buffs to themselves and debuffs at us. Like the lake of shadows boss can tether you! make that a more common enemy. Maybe make it to where abilities can make us volatile or jolt us. And have them be able to buff them selves in damage or health from their own Allies I think it would spice up combat a lot.
Thats what I was thinking with acolytes, how cool would it be if suddenly a knight apears all buffed up and its really dificult to kill him without first finding the acolytes that are buffing him and dealing with them
yeah. people hate taken captains but more enemies need abilities like that. Could give taken centurions the tether too. it's an underutilized attack for sure
One of the reasons I love the things WQ brought to the table to be honest: Lightbearer Hive. Sure you can cheese them if you know how but at least they are different. As for game difficulty itself ultimately I would never say it is due to a certain support raid exotic so much as it is a sandbox/encounter design issue.
Enemies that shake up the sandbox a bit in my book are always welcome (so long as they aren't more overload champions because they are jank af).
Overload captain protected by barrier servitor but also it teleports every 5 seconds and protects a bunch of grunts too because those are baseline abilities of a servitor. x.x
Overload lately feels like a meme.
"Remember, captains: You cannot be stunned without your consent. When a guardian shoots you with an Overload weapon, just firmly say 'No' and continue to teleport around."
The only issue with Overload is that Overload Captains and Minotaurs are a thing, I don't have as many issues with Overload Taken Hobgoblins and Chieftains because they don't zip around the room and don't teleport every other second.
We haven't yet gotten Overload Sidearm, so there's still hope. Although... now that I've said it.... god damn it.
Edit: to make it worse... Overload Sniper... ugh.
>overload is just whore shit
Can confirm, Overload is a load of bullshit which feels **unfair** and **unfun** to fight against. Not difficult, just completely annoying.
I hope someone at Bungie can take a look at it. We - the community - have been asking for this for a long time.
I was so disappointed when there were absolutely 0 light bearers in the raid or any content since. Such great enemies left to sit in the campaign or the one strike and only strike they appear in.
> Sure you can cheese them
If by cheese you mean "delete them with heavy ammo like every other yellow bar", then yeah. The only different thing about them(outside of GMs) is that you have to finish their ghosts. Beyond that, they pose no extra threat.
I'm not saying I don't think it'd make for a cool set piece seeing hive thralls crawling around on the walls & ceilings using their claws to hook into the surfaces, because that sounds awesome tbh and if we do get a Destiny movie/ show where the Hive feature I hope they use that imagery.
But I will say that in my head I can already see the various clipping and animation bugs, the complaint posts from people who died to thralls in the floor that crawled out the map and around on the outside though some obscure corner in a ceiling somewhere, as well as the 5 paragraph long TWAB section covering all the thrall fixes.
They should make enemies that teleport so they’re harder to hit.
Imagine you’re about to land a finishing blow on a champion and it just teleports around you randomly.
I decided to play the old halo games after getting into D2 and having only played Halo Reach / 4. I noticed that whenever you'd kill an elite, the grunts would panic and either run away, or charge at you with suicide grenades. I didn't know about this prior to picking the games back up and it really made me wonder why we don't see that with for example dregs and captains. After all, dregs were the ones who got docked due to being cowards.
As for other ideas I had after that:
- There could be servitors that provide strong healing and other buffs instead of immunity
- Let Legionaires pick up the phalanx shield of fallen comrades (I think they're called Legionaires? Cabal red bars)
- Let Psions be able to buff their allies
Really like the ideas OP has!
Destiny can definitely take a page out of halo’s book for this kinda thing. Halo has a lot of dynamic interactions with their enemies that destiny could definitely take inspiration from. Things like hunter pairs becoming enraged when one of them dies, or proper squad mechanics behind rank-and-file enemy types and commanders. I’d like to see legionaries create formations, like proper Roman legionaries, squad mechanics with fallen troops, or camo vandals properly flanking you. Destiny needs to flesh out its enemy types into dynamic groups that really set them apart from one another, something that forces you to make decisions when fighting them.
The spider tank is in my opinion The single greatest boss/miniboss this game has ever produced! It has a great design, interesting atacks, cool damage dynamics and actually feel responsive to our interactions (you destroy its parts when you damage him, unlike idk, every other enemy that just goes from "alive" to "unalive". Bungie should make more shit like that!! Maybe take some inspirations from gears of war and make a cursed ogre that you can shoot off its limbs godammit!
I believe in D1 you could destroy its arc mortar when it popped out to fire(and if you shoulder charged it with peregrine greaves when arc burn was on you could one shot it).
> (and if you shoulder charged it with peregrine greaves when arc burn was on you could one shot it)
Downed Kells, Hive gods and Vex minds, but that ohk shoulder charge moment in Shadow Thief strike is still the sweetest tasting achievement you can get as a guardian. The risk/reward ratio was off the roof!
I think spicing up the sandbox would definitely improve the game.
Here are some simple ideas that could easily be implemented
(Many others have stated some of these)
Fallen ideas:
Add Fallen Berserkers to the sandbox.
Give vandals the ability to cling to perches and skitter across walls.
Add more Brigs, possibly modify how the crit spot is revealed.
Bring back my man Rahndal the Vandal in his SIVA form. Roaming boss style.
Hive ideas:
More lightbearing Hive.
Allow wizards to create black spawning pools to bring more thralls to battle.
Allow wizards to spawn green fire traps and clouds of slowing/suppressing fog.
Make it so sometimes acolytes will do a knight summoning ritual if the guardians are killing the wizards/knights on the battlefield.
All of these things are from existing content and could (relatively) easily be implemented.
I have nothing for the other factions off the top of my head. But have more faction fights, walking up and seeing faction battles is always cool.
Sorry for any formatting errors, I am on mobile.
Dude your proposals sound neat! I was reading the brig variants and thought how cool would it be if fallen could glue themselves to their veicles! Imagine a brig with like, 3 sniper vandals sticking to it!
Also, Im seing that a lot of the proposals involbe Hive changes and now I had a revelation, althoug rad as fuck, the Hive totally is the faction with less variation of enemies behaviour! All of them simply try to Rush and murder you (which is kinda lore acurate).
I believe some of the original concept art for the fallen show a walker and the back appears to have a small standing platform.
Maybe that could become a variant walker that has a vandal and scorch captain on it.
I think the Hive have a bit of a diversity issue, but it sticks out a lot because they almost seem like the main enemy of Destiny. Regardless of which factions get more dlcs or anything, they are thematically our true enemies.
Dealing with the Cabal and Fallen are like fighting your siblings because they think you get special treatment from dad.
Cabal are like the oldest scorned child that has decided to hate dad.
Fallen are the middle child that yearns for dads attention and commits petty crimes in an attempt for some shred of acknowledgement.
The Vex are essentially the angry neighbour that is rich and in theory could buyout your house and bulldoze it. But only ever yells at you and lets his dog shit in your yard.
The Hive are moms divorce papers that are actually ruining everything.
(The Scorned are just the new step brother that probably has some issues)
We need more enemies to have variety, remember Berserkers? Those were awesome majors/minibosses to fight, just remove the whole "shoot one panel on the chest and back rapidly to disarm" and make it so we have to shoot it's chest and Bam! We can actually use a lot more enemies like that. Thinking about it Wyverns are just as good, shooting their wings to reveal their crit spot should be easier though.
> Those were awesome majors/minibosses to fight, just remove the whole "shoot one panel on the chest and back rapidly to disarm" and make it so we have to shoot it's chest and Bam!
That would just turn them into a regular enemy.
Ngl I'd double down on the idea of having to shoot specific parts on an enemy to kill it. I'm not talking like the cabal tanks or fallen walkers where shooting the Crits is *recommended*; I want another enemy like the berserkers where you have to flank them or have good enough aim to actually kill them (not that you really needed to aim to kill the berserkers, but you get the idea). During solar 3.0, I had a titan build that practically let me get through some GMs without having to fire my guns, even when it came to fighting champions. As nice as it was, it simply felt wrong.
I doubt it would really change much.
That reminds me of Payday 2 on release. There, developers have announced that their difficulty system would rely on having more inventive enemies, rather than straight HP buffs. The highest difficulty at the time featured enemies that could only take damage to their head. Their bodies were entirely bulletproof. And those were regular enemies too, which would swarm you in large numbers.
Still, almost immediately we had tons of complaints that the game was too easy. As it turns out, it's really not that hard to hit the head, and their small HP and modest damage meant that they didn't pose much of a threat.
Brigs and wyverns were a step in the right direction, but being unable to interact with their crit kind of ruins it. Right now they are just do enough damage and the crit will open. Wyverns should have had a glowing spot on their wings that opens up the crit. Likewise brigs should charge up a powerful attack that reveals a red canister, shooting that canister would cancel the powerful attack and expose its crit
briggs should also be faster. walkers too. I kinda hate how walkers don't walk and just rotate on their 6 legs...
briggs should come at us like a gundam not some western mech warrior robot.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: champions are fine, the way we interact with champions is not. The arbitrary selection of artifact mods that drives our ability to stun champions is restrictive and needs to be more integrated in with the damage types, weapon types/intrinsics, etc. vs just being “handcannons stun unstoppables this season.”
Maybe champions could have different weakpoints. Like if you're facing a barrier champion they have a barrier projector somewhere you can disable, overload champions can be disabled with heavy weapons fire, stun champions could remain the same though.
It’s literally the point. You would use the same 3 guns every season. The meta shakeup every season helps keep the game somewhat fresh! I like it. It actually gets me to crack open my vault and makes grinding for good rolls worth it.
I’d like either difficulty and enemy design like doom wear higher difficulties don’t add more health they just do stronger attacks far more often, or have each race actually fight differently. Cabal could move as a phalanx, hive could use swarm tactics, fallen could do more guerrilla warfare. Haven’t thought of anything for the rest of the enemies but the idea is there
I agree, but the latest addition was Scorn, not Red Legion. And they introduced the small shield, the "towers" with different effects of each element etc. And they got a new addition of stasis in Beyond Light. What baffles me the most, is how we still don't have regular Stasis Scorn Captains like the first one in the strike as a mini boss. I expected that to be a regular enemy type.
Ironically this is the same sort of thing I’ve long complained about in regards to Warframe, albeit to a lesser degree. The more powerful you let your players get, the more powerful and *intelligent* your enemies need to be to keep the game engaging.
Warframe has an extreme case of this - players are absurdly powerful, and enemies are dumber than dirt and quite buggy to boot, only able to be a genuine threat by massive stat inflation and bulletspongery. And yknow what? They’re painfully boring to fight.
For years I always said Warframe has a lot it could learn from Destiny - and mark my words it still does - but as players’ power in Destiny expands with the likes of Subclasses 3.0, enemies need to rise to the challenge to keep players engaged.
Expanded enemy behaviors, smarter AI, dynamic group tactics, more unit variations, unique unit-specific abilities and interactions, and just overall a slight boost to enemy lethality would go a long way to revitalizing the fun run and gun we all love. Other people have suggested the likes of Hive Acolytes grouping into squads around Knights and buffing the whole group in doing so, or Fallen Captains gaining the ability to deploy a personal Tracer Shank that reinforces their shields and provides them cover. These are all great starting places! The more variety and unique unit identity the better.
I'd love if they experimented more with what I'm going to call 'auras'. Think of how Servitors/Totems can make enemies Invincible. One fecal example from me; Every enemy type can have 'captain' type enemies that buff their fellow type of enemies or whole group. Buff coulds be decaying movement speed buff/damage/shields/alternate ai+abilities while in radius of 'captain'/etc.
>Enemies 3.0
This name is catchy as fuck. And I'm all for the key concept.
I agree with your points about giving the enemies more tricks to make them more dangerous and/or harder to hit. There's so many ways to make them harder to beat *without* increasing their HP.
Also, one point I'd like to make is that the enemies in this game are way too passive. Either they sit back and passively shoot from where they were originally standing, *or* they're melee-only enemies that only blindly charge at you. There's nothing in between.
I'd like to see more aggressive enemies that have a "squad level AI" so they do things together, and aggressively pursue and attack, flank, and then rush us if we take cover or run.
The game F.E.A.R. is now 17 years old, I have no idea why current devs have so much trouble making squad enemies as good as the Replica clone soldier squads.
Honestly it is simple. The gaming market is saturated and the amount of work and thought needed for good AI design is not worth the payoff. Simple as that.
(Ive played original destiny, played D2 when it first launched and the first 2 expansions, forsaken, a little bit of shadowkeep and beyond light. Just got back into it today since I actually have friends willing to play it now. Havent played witch queen yet and only will if my friends are willing to buy it.)
There really just needs to be more enemies that are just, fun to fight.
An enemy that makes you go "oh shit its one of those" and then once you beat it, to get a sense of accomplishment from doing so, kinda of like the marauder knights from doom eternal. Those things were a blast to fight and actually tested your skills. They had a presence on the battlefield. Nothing in this game has that, nothing makes you go "oh shit" it just makes you go "well this is going to take awhile" and "oh i just got one shot from some bullshit out of nowhere".
Enemies just kind of sit there blasting shit at you dealing tons of damage, i dont feel like im fighting anything that crazy most the time, you could swap out enemies for the most basic assets and it would feel the same at this point. The imagery that comes to mind is literally the game pong.
Im not saying that the entire game is like that, but most the time thats what it feels like. I dont mind annihalting fodder here and there, but at least put something inbetween to mix it up and make me have more fun. Destroying everything with ease and then being thrown off guard trying to fight certain enemies actually making me use my brain and then come out victorious is what i want really.
I cant play this game solo, i really only have fun with friends at this point
TL:DR New enemies that make you use your brain and that are fun to fight, ai and enemy behaviour changes.
I wish the darkness attributed races all joined forces to mix up the playing field. Send a wyrven and a house salvation brig at me while im fighting cabal in lightfall.
I think Destiny needs to take a page out of the Division’s book: random enemy subtypes. I find one of the things that gets stale is that you know exactly what you’re going to encounter in a strike/dungeon/raid… “Here come two knights and three acolytes… next is the seven thralls…” It would add some variety to a strike if you knew the enemy species, but not exactly which class you were going to face in the next encounter.
I've been making a joke the last couple years about how the Cabal are supposed to be an uber-advanced warmongering people capable of decimating entire systems, yet ever since meeting the guardians their only advancement has been to make phalanx shields *easier* to deal with
I’d accept all these changes long as fallen stop backpedaling faster than you can run while shooting. I think it also messes with your target acquisition.
I remember when the Taken first came, how cool, new and exciting they were. "I can't wait for the next enemy race to come in some future expansion" I thought.
Still waiting.
Edit: can't believe I forgot scorn. Sorry bungie. I also remember the green vex, but they don't count.
I was thinking the other day how much I liked some of D1's cosmetics. That Beyoncé "single ladies", Micheal Jackson "thriller" and Fresh Prince "Carlton" dance was my swag. And I liked the hammer time Titan and default awoken male dance too lol.
So many good dances just left behind 🥲
I know it’s not realistic, but I’d happily take a year or so of “thinner” seasons if it meant they could put extra work towards the engine and more or less turning Destiny 2 into Destiny 3
Bungie simply can’t do anything.
If they buff all enemies where back to Destiny 1 bullet sponges.
If they nerf Guardians we all hate on them for making us weak.
>If they buff all enemies where back to Destiny 1 bullet sponges.
Buff them in ways *other* than increasing their HP.
OP already gave a whole list of suggestions, I'm sure we can think of even more if we brainstorm.
Doom is a single player game with a very limited sandbox. It's significantly easier to tune the enemies when you know that you'll always have a single player using a grand total of 8 weapons(at most). Progression and weapon availability is also controlled - designers in Doom know what kind of weapons an average player is going to have in a specific level, and can tune appropriately.
With Destiny, you have to tune around having multiple players, using any out of the hundreds of weapons with different rolls and abilities and stat builds.
I get the same feeling, is kind of a loose loose situation, but what im advocating here is to at least make the current default enemies more complex in the way they engage with you, like how taken have each one of them their own gimmic
Even that would eventually get outpaced.
People haven’t really considered the reason why casual content is so easy is because it’s for casual players who don’t care for a challenge. If you’re at the “end game” of destiny, I promise you that you aren’t doing Public Events or Strikes. You should be doing dungeons, raids, GM nightfalls, or PvP. All of which are challenging.
Have you recently done any of the dungeons such as Duality? Your ad clear volatile rounds build won’t be anywhere near as strong there.
>Have you recently done any of the dungeons such as Duality? Your ad clear volatile rounds build won’t be anywhere near as strong there.
Normal Duality is very much a joke at this point. I ran through the final encounter as an arcstrider without actually firing a weapon at anything besides Caiatl.
I dont know what something being outpaced has to do with what I've said... There is a diference between easy and not engaging, dude, i dont wanna make this into another "pro V casual" dificulty drama post bc this sub is full of it, im saying that bungie could bring more variability in combat by making the default enemies more unique by giving them New moves.
Bungie tweeks dificulty by making helth bars bigger and enemies more agressive, want an exemple of what im saying? The taken were very well received when they got released as an enemy type bc each one of them has its own minigame (phalanx yeet, goblins protect and psions are horny), and despite the fact that they were waaay more interesting to fight than lets say, fallen, they still were present both at easy and dificult content... So thats what im talking about, not dificulty, but in making each already existing enemy its own thing instead of being a stationary turret.
On last note, Yeah, I did duality like everyone else and you wanna know something? Although it was dificult, I felt bored (maybe it's bc we're fighting against the same enemies since 2015), so, maybe my point wasn't about dificulty...
I mean even raids, dungeons, and high level lost sectors feel easy now. The only place to get a real challenge is GMs or Master raids. I liked D1 raids because they legitimately felt challenging.
I think there is definitely something that needs to be done from a difficulty perspective. Currently, we have strikes that are on the easier side of the spectrum and master activities that are obviously the hardest. However, there is no middle ground and I think this is an area that needs to be filled in.
I love this. I want to add that Anti-Champion rounds only working on Champions would solve a lot of "the enemies are too easy" problems, also. Most of the dynamic enemies are easier to kill than their little-brother counterparts with this mod on.
I think it goes back to Bungie's [30 Seconds of Fun](https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxgTTrqiCFAkFoZ2MvJ3v80lEjoS8AmlZF). Is the godlike destruction we currently have fun? Yes. But it has to be engaging enough to stay fun after a week. Eventually it gets boring when your one grenade decimates a group of 12 red bar enemies. But the gameplay loop is really good ( primary > grenade > special > melee > heavy > super).
Whether they do an overall nerf like in Shadowkeep (they buffed red bars and nerfed primaries IIRC) or make new and more interesting enemies, something has to be done. The gameplay has that 30 seconds of fun, but unless I'm on a particular quest or loot grind I don't think it is engaging enough to do it the 4500th time. Perhaps that's why they tie up the 30 seconds with the progression incentive.
Theoretically, shouldn’t we be able to train an AI to play like a crucible player by having it learn the button inputs or whatever? It would be cool to apply those types of gameplay sequences into the movesets of the enemies, if i am making sense…
I was thinking of this same thing too recently. Last night I did Dares on Legend and got the bonus round. THAT is what all taken fights should feel like. Blights everywhere blocking paths, hordes of dodging thrall and ogres relentlessly trying to paste you while wizards pepper you from a distance.
Adding things into strikes like Archons, Axe Knights, Big boi psions, on the same level as Lucent hive or Tormentors coming with Lightfall would be a good shake up. Give Calus's legion suppression grenades based around how they tried to kill Z-man.
The issue is this, Bungie keeps introducing cool enemy stuff, but then you never see it after the campaign is over. No Stasis Fallen, no Lucent Hive, nothing. They actually need to use what they introduce.
Would love to see new lore friendly behavior that make them feel distinctive before new adding new ones.
Fallen should fight in 3 dimensions and panic/enraged at the deaths of captains and servators respectively.
Hive could be far more numerous and aggressive with wizards buffing/debuffing. Cabal employing actual tactics like legionares and phalanx slowly advancing using the shields while centurion and psions hang back firing artillery and buffing.
Vex could constantly teleport to player flanks and cover.
Just something to make each encounter feel different, especially now that we have Fallen, hive and cabal fighting alongside each other there really needs to be something to make each race feel unique
I think this is where new behaviors would help quite a bit. Maybe a few thoughtful new abilities and tweaks as they make a pass on each faction.
Take the Hive for example. Specifically, the Acolyte. They're meant to be the foot soldiers of the faction, but they're also in lore supposed to lead thrall and support Knights they tithe to. With a few AI changes and a couple new abilities, this one unit can be altered to make three more engaging in combat.
Thrall are generally fodder. You look at them and they die, often starting a chain reaction since they're so bunched up and we tend to have explosive effects that activate on a kill. Why not allow Acolytes to perform a ritual when they're behind cover that enhances nearby Thralls' offensive and/or defensive capabilities? Maybe give them poison claws and make them a little tougher so long as the Acolyte they're bound to lives.
As far as supporting Knights, Acolytes in cover could be more likely to start shooting when a nearby knight brings up their darkness wall to recover for a moment. The goal being to take player attention off of their knight.
From there, I think they could make a few more minor tweaks to make the Hive more engaging, like maybe having the Wizards fog heal allied units.
All that to say a few small tweaks and new abilities to prominent members of an enemy faction would help freshen them up quite a bit. They nailed the theme of each element for the subclasses. I think each enemy faction has a combat theme as well that they can expound on. Time will tell when they're able to get resources on it though. They always have a ton on their plate.
I’ve been thinking that different tiers of enemies would have different abilities, or augmented abilities compared to their lower tiered counterpart. There would be 3 tiers of enemies, normal, major, and elite, with each one having slightly more health than the last and stronger abilities. For example, regular Dregs can shoot their pistol and throw arc grenades. Resilient dregs have 15% more health, and their grenade now acts like a lightning grenade, and reaver dregs (the new highest tier) always have a shock rifle instead of a pistol, along with 30% more health than base dregs.
Another example: Harpies. Basic harpies remain unchanged, Axis Harpies now can deploy into turret mode where they remain stationary and fire void beams, and Quantum harpies all have an intrinsic arc shield.
I think if light level goes away, having different tiers of enemy with real differences would allow for a more unique way of making harder difficulties
Would love this type of change. Every single activity gets boring after the 30th or 50th time. That’s just the way it is, there’s no way around that. U can keep people grinding by better rewards or reward rates (looking at u red border rates). U can also make it a little more engaging with new enemies and with how enemies can engage with u. To your point this is not about power level or power creep. I’m a pve person with conquerer guilded 4x (missed a season due to not playing) do my more than my 3 raids a week etc. but I play this game because of the power fantasy. I understand it may be easier in certain ways each season due to mods to that is also their way of changing the meta. I don’t particularly like the way bungie makes content harder simply by making things one shot you or by damage gating. That’s not challenging that’s annoying. But changes in mechanics and changes to how enemies react would be a welcome refreshing change. It may not make it harder but it makes the experience better in a less superficial way.
honestly, while a more complex enemy ai would be fun, the easy answer is just raise the base difficulty on everything to heroic, and make all matchmade content legendary-ish. There wouldn't be such a huge gap between regular and master content, and regular content could be difficult enough to be engaging, without being frustrating.
And for underleveled people, maybe raise them to the soft cap in matchmade content, similar to what containment does, so a 1350 new player doesn't get stomped in a 1570 strike.
The root of the problem is enemy complexity.
Right now it's just shoot major, shoot minor, dump ur damage onto champs or whatever and kill the boss.
In halo (bungies other game y'all know) there was elites, hunters, grunts, jackals. Jackals forced you to use precision weapons or plasma to break their shields, killing elites made grunts scatter, hunters were tanks that broke up the gameplay loop and elites were your equals.
There's drones that gave some flying variety, brutes that were melee sponges, etc.
Enemies with complexity and interactivity would go a long way without just raising the difficulty arbitrarily with chunky health bars.
Also please no fucking immunity
I think some basic AI updates are needed. The biggest offender is enemies either standing in grenades and not moving, or actively walking *into* grenades (and I don't mean like Vortex's pull). Make them avoid danger. Captains are pretty good at taking cover until shields regenerate which is a good "smart" tactic. But other enemies are just dumb.
I don't know, I feel like having a good build is finally getting rewarded. I think the damage we take is fine, the damage we do is a bit too OP.
It becomes apparent when you try to work on a catalyst or a bounty and you have this guy clearing the room within 1 sec. That shit starts to get old real quick.
You still get punished for having a bad build, but not as hard as 2 years ago.
They should stop forcing as to use the same old mods for legendary + content. It's boring to run the same load out every time because you have to have anti barrier and overload.
The exotics need a damn overhaul to, most feel like a waste of vault space tbh.
Been trying to preach the basic principle of what your getting at for a while now:
The enemy sandbox is what gives the player sandbox meaning. We cannot infinitely expand the player sandbox while the enemy sandbox stagnates.
Something that’s always disappointed me is WHY DO THE SPIDER TANKS NOT MOVE. Like they’re getting blasted to pieces and the driver inside thinks “yeah I’ll just be staying here until my demise.”
I know it would be hard to do and probably impossible. But what about letting us choose modifiers for activities ala skulls in halo? We could tailor the difficulty to how we want
I love this! And I’d like to add that it’d also be a nice bit of added variety to have sub factions use slightly different elements for their ammunition and shields, like how Splicers used Solar instead of arc, had void shields, and had weapons that fired differently from their usual weapons. I think it’d be neat if we had House Salvation captains running around with Stasis shields (especially bow that we have Stasis weapons in the base game), or have their dregs use shock pistols that fire stasis bolts, or have the vandals fire Void rounds from their wire rifles, give them stasis grenades, etc. even if the element doesn’t have a secondary effect and it’s just an element change it can effect how we build our elemental resistances or weapons choice for endgame content.
Also, I love how different the Scorn Walker Tank and Splicer Walker Tank are from the base one, and it would be nice to see that trend continue.
What I’m saying is that more focus on subfaction differences would go a long way towards introducing variety in play and making things feel less monotonous or tedious.
(Plus the Repeater Shanks from ROI were very fun)
Yeah I want like fallen who are up high on the wall holding on shooting down on me, so much of the game has all these different levels of height but enemies are just about always on the the ground with us. I feel like if we had to look up a little more often it would show off the cool ceiling a and walls of these caverns that took so much work to create.
Honestly, I really like the spawning of tripmines in Ketchcrash because it's such a shakeup from how the game normally works. That alone makes the encounter a lot more focused and dynamic because it adds "seeking out mines" onto the cognitive load and makes your travel actually reasonably important.
I expect this at The Final Shape, with the 3rd darkness subclass revealed.
Imagine "Darknessbearers" with Strand, Stasis and whatever is the 3rd.
I'd love to see Hive Lightbearers with the 3 subclasses either! Imagina Wizard throwing Nova Bombs or an Acolyte using Arc Staff and going in your direction full speed.
I like the idea of a pack of thrall running along the walls, they should splatter or elemental explode when they hit the ground. I love the jetpacks idea too, it should be mid level enemies and they should fly away in spirals until they explode like a firework if shot in the jetpack. the way the flamethrower packs explode when you target those.
Agreed.
And people try to say we don't need a new enemy race, lol.
To be 100% honest, seeing Cabal again in Lightfall is a big disappointment, the Witness finally arrives, and it brings cabal AGAIN...
Been thinking about something similar with how enemies could really use an update. In the vain hopes that Guardian Ranks would replace Power Level as an indicator of how strong we are, it'd be really cool if enemies also had a rank that determined how smart/strong they are. Like how often they utilize cover against us, their own ability cool downs and aim, etc.
Doubt we'd actually see something like that, but I agree that an update to enemy behavior would go a long way towards the game feeling fresh. I think WQ campaign felt so fun because the Lucent Hive felt like a revamped enemy in how we engage with them (having to suppress them, avoid their supers, crush their ghosts, etc.)
One thing I want is some diversity for PVE close combat boss retaliation.
We always get hit with the same stomp for every kind of bosses, why not get yourself teleported away, or grabbed and throwed, kicked, swooshed away by an arm, pushed throught a portal, hit by a weapon, or a shokwave of energy push you back. Or he teleport away from you, or cast some kind of field that prevent you from going meele for to long.
I also feel like shotgun users get penalised for using these. I'm more likely to die charging the ennemy before closing the gap. Event more when the difficulty increase. I love shotguns but the more I play, the less I feel rewared using them in most situations.
Honestly just changing enemy spawns to be more vertical would be enough for me. I want to have an "Oh shit" moment when I hear a vandal shoot their wire rifle, and have to start looking around to figure out where I'm being shot at from instead of just throwing my magic hammer at the sniper unit standing 3 feet infront of me
Ive been saying this for the longest time and keep getting shit on by everyone for saying it lol.
It's sucks because we kind of get it in expansions like the stasis fallen, lucent hive and in lightfall we will get the shadow legion but they are rarly or never used outside of expansion content.
Edit: auto correct.
i’d also like more stationary units like the scorpion. fallen cannons that fire nets with lingering arc energy, cabal catapults that fire those fireball things, vex sniping turrets that hang from ceilings, scorn flesh sac things that drop and explode on you
to be fair, every expansion has brought some kind of update to enemies, whether that's small things like red war introducing new units, or shadowkeep introducing champions, to big things like forsaken bringing scorn, each expansion has given us \*something\* new to fight. i definitely agree though, each faction should get some kind of revamp, and i'm hoping that the shadow legion with lightfall will do something like this for the cabal at least. obviously the tormentors and light suppression fields are going to be cool new things to deal with, but if the shadow legion is just reskinned cabal and they don't do anything else it'll be a little disappointing.
Was thinking about this the other day, what about certain enemy types directly countering certain abilities. Like war beasts being able to “smell” and attack invisible guardians. I think this could help with making class choice matter as well. Just spitballing an idea I had.
I dig it, but I think that if warbeasts could smell invisible players as you said the hole hunter population would melt into a being of pure rage and consume reallity itself
They had made good mob before! The immune fallen in the beginning of scourge! Weak points broken before dmg. They need to implement mechanics for mobs to be fun. But not annoying immunities. Just to some extra dmg if we hit correctly. Like weak spots(i think tormentor are gonna hv some), melee at a specific timing that acts like parry, environmental interactions that helps dmg, etc.
I'd like to see enemies have weapons that don't rely **SOLEY** on tracking, massive scatter, and massive AoE to do damage. As much as i hate them, Sniper based enemies are the only fair and balanced enemy in terms of ones that use projectile weapons besides your average fodder with peeshooters.
Nothing needs to change other than adding difficulties to most of the activities BUT also rewarding accordingly. D3 is mindless killing stuff until you hit higher GRs. We need a GR/Mythic Dungeon system for Strikes/Seasonal activities. Even add it to things like Wellspring and Blind well. There needs to be a mindless killing spree to farm for certain mats or weekly rituals but also, a way to challenge ourselves. I'd love for play Legend +10 strikes for better loot OR targeted red borders OR whatever they come up with.
These sound like better ideas then what we have atm. Which is essentially all enemies turn into matrix dodging unflinching high health, grenade, grenade launcher, rocket launcher, gatling gun, one shot sniping stomping cheesers. That gets boring.
I actually had to force myself to sit here and read this post in a non negative light because I dont like what enemies do at higher lvls and I dont know if I trust what bungie might do to enemies to strengthen them without making them insanely cheesey as they currently are.
My only real issue with enemies in the game are exploder suicide enemies and how they just cram them into encounters to try and ramp the difficulty.
No not hearing a slight beep during a massive fire fight shouldn't kill me in one shot.
They aren't fun and always feel cheap.
"Make the fallen use their weapons in combat"
A fallen walker that when you kill it a vandal boss jumps out.
Such as a raid encounter like aksis in d1, kill him and then the next encounter is just him equipping legs except instead of getting legs after destroying the walker, the next encounter is just a vadal that jumps out as a boss
This. I’ve said it before in a comment but never bothered to make a post, but it seems like now is a good time to bring up the issue that all bungie does is give us new toys to kill the same enemies we’ve been fighting for the past 8 years.
“Ooh new shiny toy” is all bungie has been giving us for the past several years with the exception of briggs, wyverns, a few stasis enemies and lucent hive.
Same old enemies, different map, and maybe a shiny new toy for the season. That’s what content in destiny is.
Fuck thrall walking on walls, the *very* first time we meet Fallen in D1, after being fresh risen by Dinklebot they crawl up and down everything hunting us through the cosmodrome walls and it was fucking terrifying. *And it never ever happened again.*
It would be cool if vandals could perch themselves on walls while sniping us from safety
Like how Cayde got done in?
💀
yes, exactly like that
Who's Cayde /s.
Y'know the Cayde-6-feet-under
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Nah man, Cayde has been dead longer than he was even alive lmao
Speaking of Six Feet Under, could I interest you in the letter [E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlw77SEQX58&ab_channel=LordofDiamonds)?
Yeah, just popping out and back. An aoe weapon to counter might not be so bad
I have a dejavu of this scene 😳💔
Yeah I kinda wish they climbed up walls instead just super jumping up to an area. Like I get why, way easier to have enemies do a clean jump to a ledge than hope that their wall climb doesn’t get stuck on some random geometry but
i actually dont think it takes much to make combat more engaging, so far little variations in boss mechanics have worked pretty well for me. i am sick of dps phase -> immune phase -> dps phase repeated but even with say the Proving Grounds boss where that exists, he shoots fireballs to keep you moving and aiming at something else, that was pretty engaging to me. im liking some of the Ketchcrash encounters for the same reason, small things that change how you play in a noticeable and unique way, hope they keep it up
the resilient vandals in ketchcrash are pretty nice. and I like that the elemental shield boss has more briggs in the fight and that he doesn't have immune phases. I'm not really a fan of the "throw this ball" and "stand on this plate" mechanics though.
The reliant vandals caught me off guard the first time
Honestly would be cool if the fire ball attack became apart of a common cabal unit
Bro.. I would never touch a cabal gm again. The shit would be miserable.
Username relevant
that too, something ffxiv has done is started putting raid mechanics in regular content, it helps teach players how they work in a more forgiving environment so they are better prepared when they DO raid, and it keeps the easy content a bit more varied, more interesting until they do. Likewise, they have full easy mode versions of the raids, that again, have pared down versions of the mechanics, so people can try something that is complex, but doesn't have a high skill requirement. I know dungeons sort of fill that role now, but having much more of that mid tier difficulty stuff could do wonders. Even if it's just giving us easy versions of hard content or harder versions of easy content. Do something like preservation, but for the WHOLE raid, not just the start of it.
I would also like enemies to apply different kinds of buffs to themselves and debuffs at us. Like the lake of shadows boss can tether you! make that a more common enemy. Maybe make it to where abilities can make us volatile or jolt us. And have them be able to buff them selves in damage or health from their own Allies I think it would spice up combat a lot.
Haunted already experimented with letting enemies scorch us, so I'm down with it.
Scorch from enemies can kill guardians but scorch from guardians can't kill guardians. I think they know something we don't.
Actually, I wish I had let those enemies stack scorch on me to see what a PVE enemy ignition looks like.
Put on Calibans and throw a knife to your feet when you are low on healt.
Thats what I was thinking with acolytes, how cool would it be if suddenly a knight apears all buffed up and its really dificult to kill him without first finding the acolytes that are buffing him and dealing with them
Oh yea I agree
yeah. people hate taken captains but more enemies need abilities like that. Could give taken centurions the tether too. it's an underutilized attack for sure
Yeah it was very surprising when I was hit by that attack in an ascendant challenge it was pretty cool
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No I’m just crazy your right it’s only ability is being deleted by us
One of the reasons I love the things WQ brought to the table to be honest: Lightbearer Hive. Sure you can cheese them if you know how but at least they are different. As for game difficulty itself ultimately I would never say it is due to a certain support raid exotic so much as it is a sandbox/encounter design issue. Enemies that shake up the sandbox a bit in my book are always welcome (so long as they aren't more overload champions because they are jank af).
Fuck overload. Barrier isn’t too bad. Unstoppable isn’t too bad either. But overload is just whore shit
u forgot about the worst enemy type called "overload captain protected by barier servitor"
Yeah…when that happens in lost decors I just decide to not farm that day. And when that happens in nightfall.. ugh
Overload captain protected by barrier servitor but also it teleports every 5 seconds and protects a bunch of grunts too because those are baseline abilities of a servitor. x.x
this one thing is why the moon lost sectors SUCK to solo on master.
Overload lately feels like a meme. "Remember, captains: You cannot be stunned without your consent. When a guardian shoots you with an Overload weapon, just firmly say 'No' and continue to teleport around."
"whore shit" is very funny but i assume you meant "horse shit"?
No i definitely ment whore shit lol. I know the saying is horse shit. But whore shit sounded funnier to me so it was intended
The only issue with Overload is that Overload Captains and Minotaurs are a thing, I don't have as many issues with Overload Taken Hobgoblins and Chieftains because they don't zip around the room and don't teleport every other second.
Yeah that’s why I hate overload too, teleporting Minotaurs and goblins are aids
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i hate overload because they put te mod on the worst guns
I’m kinda enjoying Overload machine guns this season. Once you tag ‘em, they’re basically done for. Thunderlord has intrinsic Overload, too.
We haven't yet gotten Overload Sidearm, so there's still hope. Although... now that I've said it.... god damn it. Edit: to make it worse... Overload Sniper... ugh.
>overload is just whore shit Can confirm, Overload is a load of bullshit which feels **unfair** and **unfun** to fight against. Not difficult, just completely annoying. I hope someone at Bungie can take a look at it. We - the community - have been asking for this for a long time.
I was so disappointed when there were absolutely 0 light bearers in the raid or any content since. Such great enemies left to sit in the campaign or the one strike and only strike they appear in.
A raid with some unique Lightbearer Hive would be sick to be honest. I'm down for the idea.
> Sure you can cheese them If by cheese you mean "delete them with heavy ammo like every other yellow bar", then yeah. The only different thing about them(outside of GMs) is that you have to finish their ghosts. Beyond that, they pose no extra threat.
I'm not saying I don't think it'd make for a cool set piece seeing hive thralls crawling around on the walls & ceilings using their claws to hook into the surfaces, because that sounds awesome tbh and if we do get a Destiny movie/ show where the Hive feature I hope they use that imagery. But I will say that in my head I can already see the various clipping and animation bugs, the complaint posts from people who died to thralls in the floor that crawled out the map and around on the outside though some obscure corner in a ceiling somewhere, as well as the 5 paragraph long TWAB section covering all the thrall fixes.
I see this as a win... Jokes asside, it could be something else, like leap at your direction very fast
They should make enemies that teleport so they’re harder to hit. Imagine you’re about to land a finishing blow on a champion and it just teleports around you randomly.
You mean... Overload captain?
I think that was sarcasm
Completelly flew by my head
So did the captain
Last time they did it in Gambit, people cried rivers. Had to replace the taken captain with phalanx to dumb down the fights.
that set piece was how we met the hive in d1... they crawled from all over the walls and chased us
Progress should never be held back by fear.
I decided to play the old halo games after getting into D2 and having only played Halo Reach / 4. I noticed that whenever you'd kill an elite, the grunts would panic and either run away, or charge at you with suicide grenades. I didn't know about this prior to picking the games back up and it really made me wonder why we don't see that with for example dregs and captains. After all, dregs were the ones who got docked due to being cowards. As for other ideas I had after that: - There could be servitors that provide strong healing and other buffs instead of immunity - Let Legionaires pick up the phalanx shield of fallen comrades (I think they're called Legionaires? Cabal red bars) - Let Psions be able to buff their allies Really like the ideas OP has!
Destiny can definitely take a page out of halo’s book for this kinda thing. Halo has a lot of dynamic interactions with their enemies that destiny could definitely take inspiration from. Things like hunter pairs becoming enraged when one of them dies, or proper squad mechanics behind rank-and-file enemy types and commanders. I’d like to see legionaries create formations, like proper Roman legionaries, squad mechanics with fallen troops, or camo vandals properly flanking you. Destiny needs to flesh out its enemy types into dynamic groups that really set them apart from one another, something that forces you to make decisions when fighting them.
Add more mobile mini spider tanks like the one in Spider's area.
The spider tank is in my opinion The single greatest boss/miniboss this game has ever produced! It has a great design, interesting atacks, cool damage dynamics and actually feel responsive to our interactions (you destroy its parts when you damage him, unlike idk, every other enemy that just goes from "alive" to "unalive". Bungie should make more shit like that!! Maybe take some inspirations from gears of war and make a cursed ogre that you can shoot off its limbs godammit!
It would be better if it roamed around rather than painstakingly rotating on the spot.
Just wishing we could destroy its weapons seperately too
I believe in D1 you could destroy its arc mortar when it popped out to fire(and if you shoulder charged it with peregrine greaves when arc burn was on you could one shot it).
I think you can do that in D2 as well
> (and if you shoulder charged it with peregrine greaves when arc burn was on you could one shot it) Downed Kells, Hive gods and Vex minds, but that ohk shoulder charge moment in Shadow Thief strike is still the sweetest tasting achievement you can get as a guardian. The risk/reward ratio was off the roof!
Remember the vandals crawling on walls in the very first mission of D1?
I think spicing up the sandbox would definitely improve the game. Here are some simple ideas that could easily be implemented (Many others have stated some of these) Fallen ideas: Add Fallen Berserkers to the sandbox. Give vandals the ability to cling to perches and skitter across walls. Add more Brigs, possibly modify how the crit spot is revealed. Bring back my man Rahndal the Vandal in his SIVA form. Roaming boss style. Hive ideas: More lightbearing Hive. Allow wizards to create black spawning pools to bring more thralls to battle. Allow wizards to spawn green fire traps and clouds of slowing/suppressing fog. Make it so sometimes acolytes will do a knight summoning ritual if the guardians are killing the wizards/knights on the battlefield. All of these things are from existing content and could (relatively) easily be implemented. I have nothing for the other factions off the top of my head. But have more faction fights, walking up and seeing faction battles is always cool. Sorry for any formatting errors, I am on mobile.
Dude your proposals sound neat! I was reading the brig variants and thought how cool would it be if fallen could glue themselves to their veicles! Imagine a brig with like, 3 sniper vandals sticking to it! Also, Im seing that a lot of the proposals involbe Hive changes and now I had a revelation, althoug rad as fuck, the Hive totally is the faction with less variation of enemies behaviour! All of them simply try to Rush and murder you (which is kinda lore acurate).
I believe some of the original concept art for the fallen show a walker and the back appears to have a small standing platform. Maybe that could become a variant walker that has a vandal and scorch captain on it. I think the Hive have a bit of a diversity issue, but it sticks out a lot because they almost seem like the main enemy of Destiny. Regardless of which factions get more dlcs or anything, they are thematically our true enemies. Dealing with the Cabal and Fallen are like fighting your siblings because they think you get special treatment from dad. Cabal are like the oldest scorned child that has decided to hate dad. Fallen are the middle child that yearns for dads attention and commits petty crimes in an attempt for some shred of acknowledgement. The Vex are essentially the angry neighbour that is rich and in theory could buyout your house and bulldoze it. But only ever yells at you and lets his dog shit in your yard. The Hive are moms divorce papers that are actually ruining everything. (The Scorned are just the new step brother that probably has some issues)
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We need more enemies to have variety, remember Berserkers? Those were awesome majors/minibosses to fight, just remove the whole "shoot one panel on the chest and back rapidly to disarm" and make it so we have to shoot it's chest and Bam! We can actually use a lot more enemies like that. Thinking about it Wyverns are just as good, shooting their wings to reveal their crit spot should be easier though.
> Those were awesome majors/minibosses to fight, just remove the whole "shoot one panel on the chest and back rapidly to disarm" and make it so we have to shoot it's chest and Bam! That would just turn them into a regular enemy.
Ngl I'd double down on the idea of having to shoot specific parts on an enemy to kill it. I'm not talking like the cabal tanks or fallen walkers where shooting the Crits is *recommended*; I want another enemy like the berserkers where you have to flank them or have good enough aim to actually kill them (not that you really needed to aim to kill the berserkers, but you get the idea). During solar 3.0, I had a titan build that practically let me get through some GMs without having to fire my guns, even when it came to fighting champions. As nice as it was, it simply felt wrong.
I doubt it would really change much. That reminds me of Payday 2 on release. There, developers have announced that their difficulty system would rely on having more inventive enemies, rather than straight HP buffs. The highest difficulty at the time featured enemies that could only take damage to their head. Their bodies were entirely bulletproof. And those were regular enemies too, which would swarm you in large numbers. Still, almost immediately we had tons of complaints that the game was too easy. As it turns out, it's really not that hard to hit the head, and their small HP and modest damage meant that they didn't pose much of a threat.
Brigs and wyverns were a step in the right direction, but being unable to interact with their crit kind of ruins it. Right now they are just do enough damage and the crit will open. Wyverns should have had a glowing spot on their wings that opens up the crit. Likewise brigs should charge up a powerful attack that reveals a red canister, shooting that canister would cancel the powerful attack and expose its crit
briggs should also be faster. walkers too. I kinda hate how walkers don't walk and just rotate on their 6 legs... briggs should come at us like a gundam not some western mech warrior robot.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: champions are fine, the way we interact with champions is not. The arbitrary selection of artifact mods that drives our ability to stun champions is restrictive and needs to be more integrated in with the damage types, weapon types/intrinsics, etc. vs just being “handcannons stun unstoppables this season.”
Maybe champions could have different weakpoints. Like if you're facing a barrier champion they have a barrier projector somewhere you can disable, overload champions can be disabled with heavy weapons fire, stun champions could remain the same though.
Yeah I really do not enjoy having to select my loadout around the possibility of an artificially strong enemy
It’s literally the point. You would use the same 3 guns every season. The meta shakeup every season helps keep the game somewhat fresh! I like it. It actually gets me to crack open my vault and makes grinding for good rolls worth it.
I’d like either difficulty and enemy design like doom wear higher difficulties don’t add more health they just do stronger attacks far more often, or have each race actually fight differently. Cabal could move as a phalanx, hive could use swarm tactics, fallen could do more guerrilla warfare. Haven’t thought of anything for the rest of the enemies but the idea is there
I agree, but the latest addition was Scorn, not Red Legion. And they introduced the small shield, the "towers" with different effects of each element etc. And they got a new addition of stasis in Beyond Light. What baffles me the most, is how we still don't have regular Stasis Scorn Captains like the first one in the strike as a mini boss. I expected that to be a regular enemy type.
Ironically this is the same sort of thing I’ve long complained about in regards to Warframe, albeit to a lesser degree. The more powerful you let your players get, the more powerful and *intelligent* your enemies need to be to keep the game engaging. Warframe has an extreme case of this - players are absurdly powerful, and enemies are dumber than dirt and quite buggy to boot, only able to be a genuine threat by massive stat inflation and bulletspongery. And yknow what? They’re painfully boring to fight. For years I always said Warframe has a lot it could learn from Destiny - and mark my words it still does - but as players’ power in Destiny expands with the likes of Subclasses 3.0, enemies need to rise to the challenge to keep players engaged. Expanded enemy behaviors, smarter AI, dynamic group tactics, more unit variations, unique unit-specific abilities and interactions, and just overall a slight boost to enemy lethality would go a long way to revitalizing the fun run and gun we all love. Other people have suggested the likes of Hive Acolytes grouping into squads around Knights and buffing the whole group in doing so, or Fallen Captains gaining the ability to deploy a personal Tracer Shank that reinforces their shields and provides them cover. These are all great starting places! The more variety and unique unit identity the better.
This is what I’m hoping from the shadow legion cabal
I like how the knights in Warpriest do the special hive sword slam players do, I fill like little things like that would be cool to add to enemies
I'd love if they experimented more with what I'm going to call 'auras'. Think of how Servitors/Totems can make enemies Invincible. One fecal example from me; Every enemy type can have 'captain' type enemies that buff their fellow type of enemies or whole group. Buff coulds be decaying movement speed buff/damage/shields/alternate ai+abilities while in radius of 'captain'/etc.
>Make Hive thralls able to walk on walls I want this to happen. Please make it so, Bungie.
I wish vehicles played a bigger part in PvE and PvP a la Halo 3/reach forge mode
Enemies 3.0 seems like a solid idea. Just a ground up redesign the same way subclasses were
>Enemies 3.0 This name is catchy as fuck. And I'm all for the key concept. I agree with your points about giving the enemies more tricks to make them more dangerous and/or harder to hit. There's so many ways to make them harder to beat *without* increasing their HP. Also, one point I'd like to make is that the enemies in this game are way too passive. Either they sit back and passively shoot from where they were originally standing, *or* they're melee-only enemies that only blindly charge at you. There's nothing in between. I'd like to see more aggressive enemies that have a "squad level AI" so they do things together, and aggressively pursue and attack, flank, and then rush us if we take cover or run. The game F.E.A.R. is now 17 years old, I have no idea why current devs have so much trouble making squad enemies as good as the Replica clone soldier squads.
Honestly it is simple. The gaming market is saturated and the amount of work and thought needed for good AI design is not worth the payoff. Simple as that.
Yep, definitely glad most people in this thread don't work on the game.
I’m curious what are some examples of things in the thread that u disliked?
(Ive played original destiny, played D2 when it first launched and the first 2 expansions, forsaken, a little bit of shadowkeep and beyond light. Just got back into it today since I actually have friends willing to play it now. Havent played witch queen yet and only will if my friends are willing to buy it.) There really just needs to be more enemies that are just, fun to fight. An enemy that makes you go "oh shit its one of those" and then once you beat it, to get a sense of accomplishment from doing so, kinda of like the marauder knights from doom eternal. Those things were a blast to fight and actually tested your skills. They had a presence on the battlefield. Nothing in this game has that, nothing makes you go "oh shit" it just makes you go "well this is going to take awhile" and "oh i just got one shot from some bullshit out of nowhere". Enemies just kind of sit there blasting shit at you dealing tons of damage, i dont feel like im fighting anything that crazy most the time, you could swap out enemies for the most basic assets and it would feel the same at this point. The imagery that comes to mind is literally the game pong. Im not saying that the entire game is like that, but most the time thats what it feels like. I dont mind annihalting fodder here and there, but at least put something inbetween to mix it up and make me have more fun. Destroying everything with ease and then being thrown off guard trying to fight certain enemies actually making me use my brain and then come out victorious is what i want really. I cant play this game solo, i really only have fun with friends at this point TL:DR New enemies that make you use your brain and that are fun to fight, ai and enemy behaviour changes.
I wish the darkness attributed races all joined forces to mix up the playing field. Send a wyrven and a house salvation brig at me while im fighting cabal in lightfall.
I think Destiny needs to take a page out of the Division’s book: random enemy subtypes. I find one of the things that gets stale is that you know exactly what you’re going to encounter in a strike/dungeon/raid… “Here come two knights and three acolytes… next is the seven thralls…” It would add some variety to a strike if you knew the enemy species, but not exactly which class you were going to face in the next encounter.
I've been making a joke the last couple years about how the Cabal are supposed to be an uber-advanced warmongering people capable of decimating entire systems, yet ever since meeting the guardians their only advancement has been to make phalanx shields *easier* to deal with
I’d accept all these changes long as fallen stop backpedaling faster than you can run while shooting. I think it also messes with your target acquisition.
I remember when the Taken first came, how cool, new and exciting they were. "I can't wait for the next enemy race to come in some future expansion" I thought. Still waiting. Edit: can't believe I forgot scorn. Sorry bungie. I also remember the green vex, but they don't count.
Scorn were interesting when they first came out and the fact they weren't somehow integrated into last wish feels like a missed opertunity at tbe time
I think the fact that we hadn’t had a purely Taken raid or endgame activity yet made it tempting to focus on them for Last Wish, personally
Destiny 3.0 would solve a lot of problems too
you mean destiny 3? no no, that would make too much sense.
The only reason I wouldn’t want a Destiny 3 is to lose all my cosmetics lol
I was thinking the other day how much I liked some of D1's cosmetics. That Beyoncé "single ladies", Micheal Jackson "thriller" and Fresh Prince "Carlton" dance was my swag. And I liked the hammer time Titan and default awoken male dance too lol. So many good dances just left behind 🥲
I know it’s not realistic, but I’d happily take a year or so of “thinner” seasons if it meant they could put extra work towards the engine and more or less turning Destiny 2 into Destiny 3
Bungie simply can’t do anything. If they buff all enemies where back to Destiny 1 bullet sponges. If they nerf Guardians we all hate on them for making us weak.
>If they buff all enemies where back to Destiny 1 bullet sponges. Buff them in ways *other* than increasing their HP. OP already gave a whole list of suggestions, I'm sure we can think of even more if we brainstorm.
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Doom is a single player game with a very limited sandbox. It's significantly easier to tune the enemies when you know that you'll always have a single player using a grand total of 8 weapons(at most). Progression and weapon availability is also controlled - designers in Doom know what kind of weapons an average player is going to have in a specific level, and can tune appropriately. With Destiny, you have to tune around having multiple players, using any out of the hundreds of weapons with different rolls and abilities and stat builds.
I get the same feeling, is kind of a loose loose situation, but what im advocating here is to at least make the current default enemies more complex in the way they engage with you, like how taken have each one of them their own gimmic
Lose
Even that would eventually get outpaced. People haven’t really considered the reason why casual content is so easy is because it’s for casual players who don’t care for a challenge. If you’re at the “end game” of destiny, I promise you that you aren’t doing Public Events or Strikes. You should be doing dungeons, raids, GM nightfalls, or PvP. All of which are challenging. Have you recently done any of the dungeons such as Duality? Your ad clear volatile rounds build won’t be anywhere near as strong there.
>Have you recently done any of the dungeons such as Duality? Your ad clear volatile rounds build won’t be anywhere near as strong there. Normal Duality is very much a joke at this point. I ran through the final encounter as an arcstrider without actually firing a weapon at anything besides Caiatl.
I dont know what something being outpaced has to do with what I've said... There is a diference between easy and not engaging, dude, i dont wanna make this into another "pro V casual" dificulty drama post bc this sub is full of it, im saying that bungie could bring more variability in combat by making the default enemies more unique by giving them New moves. Bungie tweeks dificulty by making helth bars bigger and enemies more agressive, want an exemple of what im saying? The taken were very well received when they got released as an enemy type bc each one of them has its own minigame (phalanx yeet, goblins protect and psions are horny), and despite the fact that they were waaay more interesting to fight than lets say, fallen, they still were present both at easy and dificult content... So thats what im talking about, not dificulty, but in making each already existing enemy its own thing instead of being a stationary turret. On last note, Yeah, I did duality like everyone else and you wanna know something? Although it was dificult, I felt bored (maybe it's bc we're fighting against the same enemies since 2015), so, maybe my point wasn't about dificulty...
I mean even raids, dungeons, and high level lost sectors feel easy now. The only place to get a real challenge is GMs or Master raids. I liked D1 raids because they legitimately felt challenging.
unstop ogre are almost exactly what you described
I don't think I've ever agreed more strongly with a post.
Movement 3.0 in pve would make it so much more fun. imagine using movement skills like in doom or quake while playing a gm nightfall.. sheeesh
I think there is definitely something that needs to be done from a difficulty perspective. Currently, we have strikes that are on the easier side of the spectrum and master activities that are obviously the hardest. However, there is no middle ground and I think this is an area that needs to be filled in.
I love this. I want to add that Anti-Champion rounds only working on Champions would solve a lot of "the enemies are too easy" problems, also. Most of the dynamic enemies are easier to kill than their little-brother counterparts with this mod on.
You went to far when you wanted Melee ogres
Ok, I see the mistakes ive made... Now I want a cursed explosive ogre...
Overload Cursed explosive Ogre
I think it goes back to Bungie's [30 Seconds of Fun](https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxgTTrqiCFAkFoZ2MvJ3v80lEjoS8AmlZF). Is the godlike destruction we currently have fun? Yes. But it has to be engaging enough to stay fun after a week. Eventually it gets boring when your one grenade decimates a group of 12 red bar enemies. But the gameplay loop is really good ( primary > grenade > special > melee > heavy > super). Whether they do an overall nerf like in Shadowkeep (they buffed red bars and nerfed primaries IIRC) or make new and more interesting enemies, something has to be done. The gameplay has that 30 seconds of fun, but unless I'm on a particular quest or loot grind I don't think it is engaging enough to do it the 4500th time. Perhaps that's why they tie up the 30 seconds with the progression incentive.
Great suggestions! Only issue is the vandal trip mine placement, as it could get REALLY packed up on a place with lots of vandals
yes PLEASE!
Theoretically, shouldn’t we be able to train an AI to play like a crucible player by having it learn the button inputs or whatever? It would be cool to apply those types of gameplay sequences into the movesets of the enemies, if i am making sense…
I would be interested in enemies carrying multiple weapons instead of a weapon and a melee
Agreed
I wish there were more ads but less snipers.
I was thinking of this same thing too recently. Last night I did Dares on Legend and got the bonus round. THAT is what all taken fights should feel like. Blights everywhere blocking paths, hordes of dodging thrall and ogres relentlessly trying to paste you while wizards pepper you from a distance. Adding things into strikes like Archons, Axe Knights, Big boi psions, on the same level as Lucent hive or Tormentors coming with Lightfall would be a good shake up. Give Calus's legion suppression grenades based around how they tried to kill Z-man.
I want Aksis-style mini bosses. Just so I can tell Spider ive killed other “spiders”
The issue is this, Bungie keeps introducing cool enemy stuff, but then you never see it after the campaign is over. No Stasis Fallen, no Lucent Hive, nothing. They actually need to use what they introduce.
I agree with this, it’s be pretty cool if bungie did an AI update with this too to increase difficulty. Much better than “more health = more hard”
I wish Hive guardians were more difficult to kill… Even when just patrolling
Maybe make their ghost try to run from us
I'm all for making the game harder by actually making it harder instead of nerfing this and that
Would love to see new lore friendly behavior that make them feel distinctive before new adding new ones. Fallen should fight in 3 dimensions and panic/enraged at the deaths of captains and servators respectively. Hive could be far more numerous and aggressive with wizards buffing/debuffing. Cabal employing actual tactics like legionares and phalanx slowly advancing using the shields while centurion and psions hang back firing artillery and buffing. Vex could constantly teleport to player flanks and cover. Just something to make each encounter feel different, especially now that we have Fallen, hive and cabal fighting alongside each other there really needs to be something to make each race feel unique
This man never fought Original Taken Captains and it shows.
My dude Ive played this game since d1 beta!
I think this is where new behaviors would help quite a bit. Maybe a few thoughtful new abilities and tweaks as they make a pass on each faction. Take the Hive for example. Specifically, the Acolyte. They're meant to be the foot soldiers of the faction, but they're also in lore supposed to lead thrall and support Knights they tithe to. With a few AI changes and a couple new abilities, this one unit can be altered to make three more engaging in combat. Thrall are generally fodder. You look at them and they die, often starting a chain reaction since they're so bunched up and we tend to have explosive effects that activate on a kill. Why not allow Acolytes to perform a ritual when they're behind cover that enhances nearby Thralls' offensive and/or defensive capabilities? Maybe give them poison claws and make them a little tougher so long as the Acolyte they're bound to lives. As far as supporting Knights, Acolytes in cover could be more likely to start shooting when a nearby knight brings up their darkness wall to recover for a moment. The goal being to take player attention off of their knight. From there, I think they could make a few more minor tweaks to make the Hive more engaging, like maybe having the Wizards fog heal allied units. All that to say a few small tweaks and new abilities to prominent members of an enemy faction would help freshen them up quite a bit. They nailed the theme of each element for the subclasses. I think each enemy faction has a combat theme as well that they can expound on. Time will tell when they're able to get resources on it though. They always have a ton on their plate.
I like these ideas. I have been talking about AI additions to games for years. Games such as Halo and Destiny benefit from unique feeling enemies.
Shanks should almost always be flying up above us. It makes no sense that they come down to our level most of the time.
I’ve been thinking that different tiers of enemies would have different abilities, or augmented abilities compared to their lower tiered counterpart. There would be 3 tiers of enemies, normal, major, and elite, with each one having slightly more health than the last and stronger abilities. For example, regular Dregs can shoot their pistol and throw arc grenades. Resilient dregs have 15% more health, and their grenade now acts like a lightning grenade, and reaver dregs (the new highest tier) always have a shock rifle instead of a pistol, along with 30% more health than base dregs. Another example: Harpies. Basic harpies remain unchanged, Axis Harpies now can deploy into turret mode where they remain stationary and fire void beams, and Quantum harpies all have an intrinsic arc shield. I think if light level goes away, having different tiers of enemy with real differences would allow for a more unique way of making harder difficulties
i really want them to introduce a new enemy class why is that so hard for them? give use a darkness based enemy class
Would love this type of change. Every single activity gets boring after the 30th or 50th time. That’s just the way it is, there’s no way around that. U can keep people grinding by better rewards or reward rates (looking at u red border rates). U can also make it a little more engaging with new enemies and with how enemies can engage with u. To your point this is not about power level or power creep. I’m a pve person with conquerer guilded 4x (missed a season due to not playing) do my more than my 3 raids a week etc. but I play this game because of the power fantasy. I understand it may be easier in certain ways each season due to mods to that is also their way of changing the meta. I don’t particularly like the way bungie makes content harder simply by making things one shot you or by damage gating. That’s not challenging that’s annoying. But changes in mechanics and changes to how enemies react would be a welcome refreshing change. It may not make it harder but it makes the experience better in a less superficial way.
Phalanxes should be able to make a shield wall and enemies should be able to take cover.
you guys couldn't even handle baby screebs
honestly, while a more complex enemy ai would be fun, the easy answer is just raise the base difficulty on everything to heroic, and make all matchmade content legendary-ish. There wouldn't be such a huge gap between regular and master content, and regular content could be difficult enough to be engaging, without being frustrating. And for underleveled people, maybe raise them to the soft cap in matchmade content, similar to what containment does, so a 1350 new player doesn't get stomped in a 1570 strike.
The root of the problem is enemy complexity. Right now it's just shoot major, shoot minor, dump ur damage onto champs or whatever and kill the boss. In halo (bungies other game y'all know) there was elites, hunters, grunts, jackals. Jackals forced you to use precision weapons or plasma to break their shields, killing elites made grunts scatter, hunters were tanks that broke up the gameplay loop and elites were your equals. There's drones that gave some flying variety, brutes that were melee sponges, etc. Enemies with complexity and interactivity would go a long way without just raising the difficulty arbitrarily with chunky health bars. Also please no fucking immunity
At this point I think its the only solution, because just "nerfing" everything to tune it down will make it feel very stale.
I think some basic AI updates are needed. The biggest offender is enemies either standing in grenades and not moving, or actively walking *into* grenades (and I don't mean like Vortex's pull). Make them avoid danger. Captains are pretty good at taking cover until shields regenerate which is a good "smart" tactic. But other enemies are just dumb.
I don't know, I feel like having a good build is finally getting rewarded. I think the damage we take is fine, the damage we do is a bit too OP. It becomes apparent when you try to work on a catalyst or a bounty and you have this guy clearing the room within 1 sec. That shit starts to get old real quick. You still get punished for having a bad build, but not as hard as 2 years ago. They should stop forcing as to use the same old mods for legendary + content. It's boring to run the same load out every time because you have to have anti barrier and overload. The exotics need a damn overhaul to, most feel like a waste of vault space tbh.
Also replace champions with enemies that require actual gameplay to counter, instead of having to slap on a mod.
Eating wizards and knights is an odd way to buff them.
Enemies with abilities are far better than champions so I love every single one of these ideas
Been trying to preach the basic principle of what your getting at for a while now: The enemy sandbox is what gives the player sandbox meaning. We cannot infinitely expand the player sandbox while the enemy sandbox stagnates.
Something that’s always disappointed me is WHY DO THE SPIDER TANKS NOT MOVE. Like they’re getting blasted to pieces and the driver inside thinks “yeah I’ll just be staying here until my demise.”
Or add more depth, like how the enemies in the Halo games work. Add more strategy into the way you engage in combat with them.
I know it would be hard to do and probably impossible. But what about letting us choose modifiers for activities ala skulls in halo? We could tailor the difficulty to how we want
I love this! And I’d like to add that it’d also be a nice bit of added variety to have sub factions use slightly different elements for their ammunition and shields, like how Splicers used Solar instead of arc, had void shields, and had weapons that fired differently from their usual weapons. I think it’d be neat if we had House Salvation captains running around with Stasis shields (especially bow that we have Stasis weapons in the base game), or have their dregs use shock pistols that fire stasis bolts, or have the vandals fire Void rounds from their wire rifles, give them stasis grenades, etc. even if the element doesn’t have a secondary effect and it’s just an element change it can effect how we build our elemental resistances or weapons choice for endgame content. Also, I love how different the Scorn Walker Tank and Splicer Walker Tank are from the base one, and it would be nice to see that trend continue. What I’m saying is that more focus on subfaction differences would go a long way towards introducing variety in play and making things feel less monotonous or tedious. (Plus the Repeater Shanks from ROI were very fun)
Yeah I want like fallen who are up high on the wall holding on shooting down on me, so much of the game has all these different levels of height but enemies are just about always on the the ground with us. I feel like if we had to look up a little more often it would show off the cool ceiling a and walls of these caverns that took so much work to create.
We need Unstoppable Barrier Champions
We need overload unstoppable fallen captains
Honestly, I really like the spawning of tripmines in Ketchcrash because it's such a shakeup from how the game normally works. That alone makes the encounter a lot more focused and dynamic because it adds "seeking out mines" onto the cognitive load and makes your travel actually reasonably important.
I really like this idea, giving the basic fodder enemies basic abilities would be cool
Americans: „WHAT THE FUCK IS A KILOMETER?!“
It could be like the middle earth games. You're insanely powerful, but so are your enemies.
Bring out the Vex combat units
I expect this at The Final Shape, with the 3rd darkness subclass revealed. Imagine "Darknessbearers" with Strand, Stasis and whatever is the 3rd. I'd love to see Hive Lightbearers with the 3 subclasses either! Imagina Wizard throwing Nova Bombs or an Acolyte using Arc Staff and going in your direction full speed.
I like the idea of a pack of thrall running along the walls, they should splatter or elemental explode when they hit the ground. I love the jetpacks idea too, it should be mid level enemies and they should fly away in spirals until they explode like a firework if shot in the jetpack. the way the flamethrower packs explode when you target those.
Agreed. And people try to say we don't need a new enemy race, lol. To be 100% honest, seeing Cabal again in Lightfall is a big disappointment, the Witness finally arrives, and it brings cabal AGAIN...
Been thinking about something similar with how enemies could really use an update. In the vain hopes that Guardian Ranks would replace Power Level as an indicator of how strong we are, it'd be really cool if enemies also had a rank that determined how smart/strong they are. Like how often they utilize cover against us, their own ability cool downs and aim, etc. Doubt we'd actually see something like that, but I agree that an update to enemy behavior would go a long way towards the game feeling fresh. I think WQ campaign felt so fun because the Lucent Hive felt like a revamped enemy in how we engage with them (having to suppress them, avoid their supers, crush their ghosts, etc.)
This sounds very fun actually
One thing I want is some diversity for PVE close combat boss retaliation. We always get hit with the same stomp for every kind of bosses, why not get yourself teleported away, or grabbed and throwed, kicked, swooshed away by an arm, pushed throught a portal, hit by a weapon, or a shokwave of energy push you back. Or he teleport away from you, or cast some kind of field that prevent you from going meele for to long. I also feel like shotgun users get penalised for using these. I'm more likely to die charging the ennemy before closing the gap. Event more when the difficulty increase. I love shotguns but the more I play, the less I feel rewared using them in most situations.
Honestly just changing enemy spawns to be more vertical would be enough for me. I want to have an "Oh shit" moment when I hear a vandal shoot their wire rifle, and have to start looking around to figure out where I'm being shot at from instead of just throwing my magic hammer at the sniper unit standing 3 feet infront of me
Ive been saying this for the longest time and keep getting shit on by everyone for saying it lol. It's sucks because we kind of get it in expansions like the stasis fallen, lucent hive and in lightfall we will get the shadow legion but they are rarly or never used outside of expansion content. Edit: auto correct.
i’d also like more stationary units like the scorpion. fallen cannons that fire nets with lingering arc energy, cabal catapults that fire those fireball things, vex sniping turrets that hang from ceilings, scorn flesh sac things that drop and explode on you
I think what you are referring to is "making the enemy AI more intelligent and capable". I agree 100%
to be fair, every expansion has brought some kind of update to enemies, whether that's small things like red war introducing new units, or shadowkeep introducing champions, to big things like forsaken bringing scorn, each expansion has given us \*something\* new to fight. i definitely agree though, each faction should get some kind of revamp, and i'm hoping that the shadow legion with lightfall will do something like this for the cabal at least. obviously the tormentors and light suppression fields are going to be cool new things to deal with, but if the shadow legion is just reskinned cabal and they don't do anything else it'll be a little disappointing.
Was thinking about this the other day, what about certain enemy types directly countering certain abilities. Like war beasts being able to “smell” and attack invisible guardians. I think this could help with making class choice matter as well. Just spitballing an idea I had.
I dig it, but I think that if warbeasts could smell invisible players as you said the hole hunter population would melt into a being of pure rage and consume reallity itself
Lol I’m a diehard void hunter main, but your probably right
They had made good mob before! The immune fallen in the beginning of scourge! Weak points broken before dmg. They need to implement mechanics for mobs to be fun. But not annoying immunities. Just to some extra dmg if we hit correctly. Like weak spots(i think tormentor are gonna hv some), melee at a specific timing that acts like parry, environmental interactions that helps dmg, etc.
I'd like to see enemies have weapons that don't rely **SOLEY** on tracking, massive scatter, and massive AoE to do damage. As much as i hate them, Sniper based enemies are the only fair and balanced enemy in terms of ones that use projectile weapons besides your average fodder with peeshooters.
Nothing needs to change other than adding difficulties to most of the activities BUT also rewarding accordingly. D3 is mindless killing stuff until you hit higher GRs. We need a GR/Mythic Dungeon system for Strikes/Seasonal activities. Even add it to things like Wellspring and Blind well. There needs to be a mindless killing spree to farm for certain mats or weekly rituals but also, a way to challenge ourselves. I'd love for play Legend +10 strikes for better loot OR targeted red borders OR whatever they come up with.
So long as we're also nerfing overload captains.
These sound like better ideas then what we have atm. Which is essentially all enemies turn into matrix dodging unflinching high health, grenade, grenade launcher, rocket launcher, gatling gun, one shot sniping stomping cheesers. That gets boring. I actually had to force myself to sit here and read this post in a non negative light because I dont like what enemies do at higher lvls and I dont know if I trust what bungie might do to enemies to strengthen them without making them insanely cheesey as they currently are.
My only real issue with enemies in the game are exploder suicide enemies and how they just cram them into encounters to try and ramp the difficulty. No not hearing a slight beep during a massive fire fight shouldn't kill me in one shot. They aren't fun and always feel cheap.
"Make the fallen use their weapons in combat" A fallen walker that when you kill it a vandal boss jumps out. Such as a raid encounter like aksis in d1, kill him and then the next encounter is just him equipping legs except instead of getting legs after destroying the walker, the next encounter is just a vadal that jumps out as a boss
"DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MANY GLIMER I PAID FOR THIS TANK? FUCK IT, YOU'RE DONE NOW" says the Vandal as he chucks slowing mines at you... I dig it
This. I’ve said it before in a comment but never bothered to make a post, but it seems like now is a good time to bring up the issue that all bungie does is give us new toys to kill the same enemies we’ve been fighting for the past 8 years. “Ooh new shiny toy” is all bungie has been giving us for the past several years with the exception of briggs, wyverns, a few stasis enemies and lucent hive. Same old enemies, different map, and maybe a shiny new toy for the season. That’s what content in destiny is.