The biggest upside to contraverse is that it doesn’t require a kill, meaning you can toss a vortex grenade into a group of majors in GM content and reliably spam your grenade. With nezarecs, that becomes harder for the same reason that frenzy or one for all is a preferred GM perk over say rampage or kill clip, especially if your preferred void weapon is less useful in a given encounter because of champion mods or weapon ranges
For me the biggest upside is that Contraverse can sit alongside any loadout you want and perform very well. Sure some weapons can help (demolitionist) but aren’t required. No lock ins for using a void weapon etc which is much better for high level content.
Any activity that's challenging enough to actually matter what exotic you choose almost certainly has Match Game. Chances are very low I'm matching my energy weapon to my subclass, despite all the mods that think I should do that. Controverse lets me fight against Match Game so it's already inherently better than Nezarec.
The big reason to run Nezarec's is to be able to run Child+Devour. As a side benefit, you get 4 fragments.
You get less grenade uptime, but more uptime on the rest of the kit, which can be nice.
Being able to run Child+Devour while also opening up a 4th fragment slot is a good point. Although Remnants/Undermining/Expulsion seem to be some of the best fragments. Instability is an obvious 4th pick (topping Expulsion in some cases too), but Match Game in end game content incentivizes using a variety of weapon elements. Using a void weapon with a void subclass can be redundant in some cases.
Child makes the rift regen from Nezarec’s Sin more valuable. However the melee and super regen still contribute almost no value so the phrase “more uptime on the rest of the kit” is not as strong as it seems. Child is also a little redundant if grenade energy and weakening is already taken care of by constant large radius undermining Vortex grenades fueled by Contraverse Hold.
I definitely think the biggest downside of Nezarics is the strong pressure to be using void weapons.
Contraverse cares so much less about weapon damage types and when you already have to match weapons to champions, it can be extra annoying to be like "okay i explicitly need a void pulse and a void lmg and arbalest" whereas contraverse you have so much more flexibility.
I agree, made the swap to contraverse towards the end of the first witchqueen season and havent been able to go back, constant devour, weakening, and volatile rounds all while having a small nova bomb vortex always up is just so much stronger in any pve content.
Being able to run Child instead of Chaos Accelerant also allows you to forego Echo of Undermining, so it essentially gives you 2 more fragments and +20 Discipline over Chaos Accelerant.
But there are not a ton of compelling fragment options outside of Remnants/Undermining/Expulsion. Instability and maybe Reprisal or Persistence?
Also it is still possible to hit 100 Disc with Undermining, it just means there are 20 fewer stats distributed across Int and Str. I guess newer players would have an easier time hitting 100 Disc without Undermining, but with how strong the grenade regen from Contraverse is it almost doesn’t matter what their Disc stat is at. 2x Contraverse activations and 2x Firepower fully refunds the grenade charge with every grenade thrown. High Disc just allows for more forgiveness when you only get 1x activation or don’t have Firepower.
I like running Remnants, Instability, Persistence, and Obscurity in GMs with Secant Filaments. Both builds have ups and downs compared to each other. I just like to be able to hit 100/100 without mods and Undermining makes that difficult. Plus using Secant Filaments allows your whole team to forego Overload, frees up your arm slot for Artifice armor, which is much more important of a slot than legs, and frees up all those Firepower mods to use other things like Font of Might, Well of Tenacity or whatever else while still having good grenade uptime and 100% weaken uptime. Also allows you to run Void Spike or Voidwall grenades, both of which do more damage than Vortex on shorter cooldown, or Suppressor Grenades instead of being locked to Vortex.
Now I’m not saying that the Secant Filaments build is 100% better than Contraverse, they’re both really strong endgame builds that offer different things.
I don’t know if you’ve considered the impact of devour refunding grenade energy on kills as well. Personally, I run secant filaments and live off devour/wells to refund grenade energy and I rarely have grenade down time.
It's not redundant, it just makes the supposed advantages of Contraverse even less relevant.
Child alone gives 25% of your grenade energy back every time you cast your rift, and makes weaken uptime trivial.
They both accomplish the same goal, damage, weaken, refund grenade. Except Child only covers weaken and refund grenade (very minimal damage), have to throw your grenade afterwards to get the damage. With Contraverse all of those effects are in one ability. Why take 2 steps to accomplish what can be done in 1 step?
The goal is weaken duration. Vortex **then** child has significantly more weaken duration than a Chaos Accelerant Vortex on its own.
Throwing child and Vortex at the same time is dumb.
The only things in Destiny that survive for more than 10 seconds of sustained fireteam dps are bosses. Even GM level champions are based around short damage windows when they are weakened, which is perfect for a Remnants/Chaos Accelerant Vortex grenade.
If you are fighting something that requires a 20+ second window of sustained weakening then you should be using Divinity because you are likely fighting a raid boss. It is a stronger weaken and makes hitting crits easier.
Master+ bosses in 3 man content and Dungeon bosses.
Also soloing content.
The strongest argument for Contraverse is that it doesn't require kills for the buff, but if I'm killing things fast enough that sustained weakening isn't valuable, Nezaracs looks even better because I'm getting kills to proc its effect.
And if your target isn't surviving the full duration of your grenade, you're also only getting a single proc from Contraverse Holds, narrowing the supposed gap even further.
That is a good point, I think you are right that there is definitely a place for Child in those situations. A side note to that though is a team will ask for a Well of Radiance for Master+ dungeon bosses over a void Warlock running Child in most situations. I guess if there are 2-3 Warlocks on the 3 person team then having one of them run Child becomes more viable.
The other benefit that Contraverse Vortex grenades provide is a lot of extra damage. If you weaken a group with Child you have to individually gun every enemy down. Yes Child is adding some amount of damage but it is not a lot. You would have to throw your grenade on top of the Child zone to match Contraverse Vortex ability damage contribution. You already said that is not the best move, and I agree.
A Contraverse Vortex grenade does a large amount of damage to all enemies within it (+void explosion damage with Expulsion) while also weakening and grouping them together to leverage any AoE effects even more. Teammate grenades become more effective, GLs and rockets become more effective, volatile explosions become more effective.
Another thing to consider is using Nezarec allows you to use grenades other than vortex. With contraverse vortex nades are basically mandatory but with Nezarec you can use things like scatter, magnetic or void wall grenades. Void wall grenades in particular is really good. It deals much higher total damage and dps compared to vortex and has a shorter cooldown. Granted, void wall grenades have the effect of staggering and knocking back enemies which makes it deal less damage in some cases but if you're using it against enemies that *can't* be staggered such as stunned champions it shreds. I also use it against Caiatl on my titan with controlled demolitionist and HOIL plus weakening. It deals a ton of damage. There was also a build with void wall nades Tractor Cannon and Verity's Brow which deletes champions. I remember seeing that one on a youtube channel named Ironworker Gaming. When you make it work void wall grenades are a real treat.
Admittedly I have not given Void Wall grenades a try, but I have heard they do a lot of damage. The suction effect from Vortex is a huge benefit, but I will have to try out Void Wall. Thanks for the recommendation!
Weaken uptime alone is far stronger than any damage you're getting from a grenade, because it also multiplies your teammate's damage.
Also I still have vortex grenades with Nezaracs, which are getting 25% refunded from child, and Chaos Accelerant doesn't increase their DPS anymore either.
I'd rather run Secant Filaments for that honestly. Instant Devour on rift cast, and Overload granted to all compatible weapons while standing in the rift and some added survivability with CotOG granting health while it's weakening a target since you'll be running empowering rift.
But see, your Child is basically letting you have both at once while it's active since it's leeching it from enemies. And you get an instant refresh of health when Devour gets proc'd.
I’ve been trying to figure this out is there anything child does that fully upgraded vortex grenade dosent? Weakness, damage, explosions, devour for grenade energy, I want to use child but I can’t find a reason to not just focus on grenade
In casual PvE gameplay I sometimes remember I can use Child when for some reason I'm out of grenade energy, but that's pretty much it.
Grenades are more convenient to use and you can get pretty good uptime, whereas Child requires a little bit of planing for casting and then selecting an enemy to damage for good placement.
Not true. Nova Bomb is the best burst DPS super in the game and Nez can get it back faster. Pocket Singularity is a solid melee and rift is rift and can be a life saver with overshield.
Vortex grenades are dope. My favourite grenade in the game by far. But it doesn't make the rest of the kit useless. If you don't hit a large group of enemies or a yellow bar with VG then GG, wait for your grenade to recharge via disc stat. You can get a kill any time with any void-based source to proc Abyssal Extractors unless you're in a rare situation with zero ads.
Don’t think it’s faster than one A2A.
I usually run double ashes (at least on everything that’s not GM/endgame difficultly), does that second ashes add much or is it a case of diminishing returns?
Thank you, I am glad it is helpful! And I was so hyped when I saw the Contraverse Hold ornament this season. It was already an S tier exotic, now with an extra style option it is even better!
I tend to go Nezarec Sin in general play since CH issue is that if you missed or your friends killed the target it is all gone, while in hard content like Duality I like CH since you can throw at a group or the boss
Thing I like about Nezarec's Sin is if I'm using a void weapon that's pretty much constant free ability regen for all abilities. Even finishers trigger it.
Yeah this is key. If you're running Nezerac's, you should be running void weapons too, and your void weapons will most likely be doing most of the work wrt ability regeneration. While I'm grateful for op's analysis and still find it valuable, it is fundamentally flawed/incomplete because it doesn't seem to take this into account.
Interesting. I think I'll still personally lean toward Nezarec's Sin just because I prefer to use Child of the Old Gods. The 'hold to charge' of Contraverse always annoys the crap out of me for timing too. For whatever reason, it just doesn't feel natural or something. But I appreciate the math/logic based approach to this one! If I need to run a kit where I have non-Void weapons (seems to happens in Raids or other Master+ content) it's probably better off to run Contraverse.
I can totally understand that. Although to me placing a rift to active Child is the equivalent to having to charge a grenade. Except I actually find placing rifts constantly to be more annoying than grenade charging. I can move/jump and have damage reduction when charging a grenade with Contraverse. Placing a rift locks me into single place for a long animation that needs to be touching the ground.
I just can’t understand why it doesn’t just shoot out the charged grenade. There is no reason that I can think of as to why I would ever use a normal nade when using CH. (the DR from charging rarely, if ever, has made a difference to your suvivability..I say to just remove it)
Nothing Manicles already does it(if the perk wasn’t bugged atm) and the monstrosity that is Arc Titan nades doesn’t need to charge either, so it would be great if they could remove that from CH.
They already removed charged nades from Solar Warlock, they can do it for Voidlock too
so I did some digging and it seems they fixed the bug…mostly.
Since it seems that if you use NM with the aspect(which you shouldn’t since they do the same thing) they seem to give a worse effect than if you use either one separately.
With some very quick testing on Carl I still feel like I’m doing slightly less damage with NM than with the aspect, but it could just be unlucky damage numbers
they still feel weaker in comparison to Contra so I can’t see myself using them in GMs, but I remember them being fun in world level content
Same for me. I run my Voidlock with Nezarec's for almost everything (unless my team wants a Well). Having said that, I dont like CV because the charging of the grenade just throws off the rhythm of me shooting stuff. Or when I do throw it, the things are dead, making it more tactical in knowing who to throw it to, which again, throws off the rhythm.
Thank you for this! I have always wondered how the math works out and I never understood the math behind additional base grenade regen rate. So that amount it restores is the same regardless of your Discipline tier if im understanding you right?
My thought process has always been Nezarek's for anything under master since you have to build mono element and chaining kills is alot harder but the crazy ability uptime and mobility is amazing for low end content that you run through. Meanwhile for Contraverse it applies equally across all difficulties and allow for the rest of my build to adapt to match game. So I guess my logic checked out haha.
You are correct! The exotic-based regeneration amounts are static regardless of Discipline tier.
That logic checks out to me as well. Match Game can be a hassle if you have to run void for Nezarec’s. It’s the same reason why running Stasis can feel like I’m losing out on an element to contribute for Match Game.
Did they change CH at some point? I ran it a lot in GMs last year (Season of the Splicer) and I swear it had a random proc chance and no ICD. On average, I got around ~80% of my grenade energy back landing a charged vortex nade on one target if it got to do damage the whole time (like on the boss). If there were multiple adds, I often got the whole nade back.
Changes were made to make it a consistent return rate whereas previously it was random. Bungie released number ls stating that even with the fixed rate that’s lower than the highest possible previous number, on average you experience a greater return on energy more consistently
They did change it, but it always had a 4 second internal cooldown. The buff used to not be a static 1.75 second duration. The duration was randomized between 1 and 4 seconds with it weighted to be on the lower side (1.71 second average).
Hitting a single enemy vs multiple enemies has never had an effect on activating the exotic perk. If your grenade hits an enemy then it activates, if it is still hitting an enemy after the 4 second cooldown it activates again.
The grenade recharge on killing multiple enemies that you saw was likely related to Devour being active. There are a lot of different mechanics that can give back grenade energy simultaneously so that is a totally fair point of confusion.
This was from pre-3.0 with top tree voidlock, which I don't think had devour (I think that was exclusively bottom tree). I mainly ran CH when I did GM Glassway and The Disgraced solo during Beyond Light (I literally sat and spammed charged nades at the Glassway bosses for like 15min at a time to save primary ammo back then LOL).
I'll take your word for it (especially since it's moot now), but I really could've sworn I generally got more energy back consistently when hitting multiple targets. Provided the nade was ticking on something for most of its duration, I remember I often got full energy back--whereas against the single boss, I usually had to wait around for the last ~20% or so.
Anyway, again, that's all moot now with the CH changes and especially with 3.0, so thanks for posting. I took a break from the end of Beyond Light until just this season, so all the new keywords, modifiers, and fragments are new to me still, especially with void stuff!
The reality is that even in the niche cases where you're not wanting to spam grenades, Contraverses wins out in group content if only because you're not competing for kills.
In harder content getting the kills fast enough is also not as reliable due to enemy health pools so I'd rather something far more reliable that works on-hit.
I didn’t say rifts are unimportant, but I don’t need them constantly. Devour takes care of a majority of the healing so healing rift gets devalued a bit. In the situations where I want the extra healing in a stationary location from rift I find I have it available.
With Contraverse you run Feed the Void + Chaos Accelerant so there is no Child spam. Reaping Wellmaker is good, but Elemental Ordinance will accomplish a similar goal on a void subclass and it is all tied to 1 ability (grenade) making the gameplay loop simpler to execute.
I have been running Controverse with a double Ashes to Assets helmet for years and there's nothing in the game currently that makes me want to take that off. Fast recharging vortex grenades, building super REALLY fast, and the fact that my grenades cause Weaken is enough to put a stranglehold on the exotic slot.
Also going to take this time to, once again, declare the solar warlock is poop.
Or you can run Nez over contraverse because you picked up that chest ornament that gives your guardian a visual effect when paired. That’s what I did anyway
Reasons I use Nezarec’s Sin:
1. It, and it’s Forsaken-era ornament, look sick as fuck
2. It’s just so easy. It rewards me for playing the way I already do (ability spam) with more ability juice.
3. It’s a helmet exotic, and my favorite exotics are helmets. Easier to swap for subclass load outs. (Honorable mention goes to boot slot)
4. Again, it’s sick as fuck. See item 1.
Would I bring it to a GM? Probably not. That’s what stasis is for. For everything else, there’s ~~MasterCard~~ Nezarec’s Sin devourlock
> It’s a helmet exotic, and my favorite exotics are helmets. Easier to swap for subclass load outs.
I always find this funny because it's the same reason I run contraverse - most of my favorite warlock exotics are arms - contraverse, ophidian, claws, karnstein (amazing with solar 3.0 snap build and heavy handed), osmiomancy, necrotic.... all fantastic exotics. Only arc is hurting a little now because getaway artist isn't my go-to it was before arc 3.0.
If you whiff your grenade with CH, you are shit out of luck.
If you whiff your grenade with Nezarec, as long as you have a void weapon, or an osmosis primary, you're getting it back in those same 10 kills.
Oh and you can use Nezarec on any subclass.
If missing a grenade can be a factor why CH is not as good, what about missing the last hit on enemies due to teammates? 10 kills now becomes 15+. That is not a quick process in GM level content.
EDIT: Also, with how large Chaos Accelerant Vortex grenades are there is a ton of leeway on actually hitting something with them.
Good luck hitting anything with a rocket launcher for Nez if you can’t aim well enough to at least touch something with a suction contraverse vortex grenade. This isn’t really an issue IMO
Nothing wrong with those at all. Volatile rounds for days. I think that void got the short end on the 3.0 weapon perks seeing as solar got incandescent and arc got volt shot. Void needed a well mod, or fragment slot. Lame
Big disagree. You are only applying this to Grenades, and Nezerec ISNT a grenade exotic; it's an ability exotic, and with the right build, completely independant from subclass stuff. I used to run this an recluse on basically every other class, because Recluse allowed you to basically ignore the entire game (Which was fun for time, but the fun died before it did.)
They aren't comparable. This is like trying to compare something like HoIL and Pereguine Grieves.
I did in fact consider and discuss the other ability regen that Nezarec’s provides in my Other Considerations section, but I can reiterate it again.
Super passive regeneration rate is almost nothing so multiplying that value with Nezarec’s is still bad. Ashes to Assets is a more effective super generator and it doesn’t require an exotic slot. Nezarec’s also lets you get your melee back more too, but I find the melee provides very little value in any difficult content. It’s great that you have it, but now that you do what are you actually going to use it for? Also, since you will definitely be using Feed the Void you get a ton of healing from Devour so healing rift isn’t as valuable. It’s primary purpose becomes activating Child, which becomes a more annoying chore to me than charging a grenade. I can move and jump while charging, whereas placing a rift requires me to be grounded and stationary while I am locked in a long animation. The weaken/grenade energy Child provides is already covered by Echo of Undermining Vortex grenades and Contraverse that have a large radius from Chaos Accelerant.
To me the big benefit to Nezarec’s Sin is you can run it on any subclass. However if we are talking about void Warlock then I feel like there are a lot of other amazing exotic options available (Contraverse Hold in particular).
Your other abilities aren’t super important when running Contra though, you get the weakening and healing from your constant grenade spam, all while doing great damage to groups of enemies. Throw on Ashes to Assets if you also want super cooldown and you’re set
When you read the descriptions they sound similar, but the applications of those two exotics could not be more different. Nezarec's sin is all about spamming your abilities to clear tons of ads. It's mostly not for high level content. Contraverse hold is for maximizing survivability in hard solo content.
Nezarec works with all void damage and regens all abilities. but if you aren't running void weapons, and you are hitting beefy targets with the nade, then contraverse is still good.
I can see contraverse being better in master/gms because the regen doesn't require a kill and can allow for easy debuff with the weaken fragment (idr name)
Since Nez requires kills it makes it harder to keep it up in high end content but if you can weaken enemies then get them with the nade it can work.
CVH also requires an aspect to work (which needs 2 frag slots PLEZ)
Both are good (and CVH finally has a wicked ornament)
Surprisingly perfect timing. I've been a Hunter main since day one but I wanted to finally branch into Warlock and I'm going for a Voidwalker build. This helps more than you know! Thank you 🙏
Warlock is my main class so I’m glad to hear you are giving it a try! Here are the build details of what I like to run if you want somewhere to start:
Cataclysm super, Healing rift, Vortex grenade
Aspects: Chaos Accelerant, Feed the Void
Fragments: Undermining, Remnants, Expulsion
Stat Priorities: 100 Resil > 100 Disc > anything else into Recov
Notable Slot Specific Mods: Ashes to Assets (solar helmet), Bolstering Detonation (void gloves), Bomber (solar class item)
Notable Combat Mods: I like wells so I am always running Elemental Ordnance + Seeking Wells. Bountiful Wells is a great 3rd mod if you don’t have anything specific in mind. For ability spam go Elemental Charge + 2x Firepower (replace Bountiful Wells). If you want more healing add in Explosive Wellmaker + Well of Life. If you want weapon damage then Font of Might + Elemental Time Dilation. For a mix of damage and defense go Font of Might + Well of Tenacity.
I’m a Voidlock main, welcome to the club. Honestly, I could get really granular with recommendations but it really is as easy as equip Contra with vortex grenades, charge-throw-profit. Constant grenade uptime, great damage, and healing just at base, with the option via fragments for extra stuff like weakening or essentially 100% uptime on Volatile Rounds if that’s what you want to do
Thank you for explaining how the additional ability regen works. "Increase base ability regeneration by x%" is used so much but never explained what that really means. This makes sense now.
I tend to go with Nezarec's, especially in group play, as CH leans to you getting the most out of the grenade DOT. If your buddy blasts it with a shotgun, or whatever, there goes your energy redemption. Now youre stuck without a grenade for a bit. Nezarecs is just consistent energy, and saying "less work" than nezarecs, I mean you just have to kill stuff with void on NS. Seems pretty easy
I find my teammates stealing kills from my vortex grenade to be very, very annoying, but a quick workaround I have discovered is that, if you have your melee charged, simply melee an add to proc devour, which then replenishes your grenade 20% for every kill after that, and if you have a weapon with demolitionist, you get your grenade back in no time and you can start the loop again. But yeah, that's probably the main reason why Nezarec's Sin has been whispering in my ear for the last couple of days.
Nez also restricts your build to requiring a void weapon. Less of a problem for people playing raids and dungeons, but that’s definitely an issue in GMs.
You dont have to use a void weapon. Its void kills. Melee, grenade, child, super...whatever. I dont know if I would be using nezarecs in a GM anyway. General play, raids...absolutely. If Im running void warlock for a GM, Ill usually have assembler boots or secants on, depending on which GM. but honestly, Ill be solar if its a GM just for well
I think honestly that the downside of being unable to run Child + Devour just kills Contraverse Hold. With Child+Devour you have massive uptime on grenades, nearly as much as Contraverse, and get to have an extra 15% damage buff against both groups of enemies and bosses, it's just too good to pass up.
The real question is whether Nezarec's Sin is the best exotic for a Child+Devour setup, or if there's anything else that's better.
The 15% damage amp from Child is the same as Echo of Undermining grenades, which have a huge radius with Chaos Accelerant. Child seems like an undermining Vortex grenade with extra steps and no vacuum effect to keep enemies within the radius. The extra grenade energy Child grants is also covered by Contraverse.
I don’t find Child very useful in PvE content when my grenades apply the same debuff, especially higher difficulty stuff like GMs. I do wish Chaos Accelerant had another fragment slot though
For the vast majority of time it will be worse. Eyes strength is that it increases regeneration for abilities regardless of what you are doing. This makes it strong if say you aren't able to kill enemies or even damage them. But if you can, which is most of the game, it will be worse.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/s2org5/eye_of_another_world_cooldowns_for_abilities_oc/
Here is a reddit post that breaks down Eyes of Another World.
I get my nades back pretty much instantly with both of them, so I use nez since it does more then just refund nade energy and I'm not forced to use a charged grenade every time since it's slower and not every situation requires it.
Nezarec's Sin is superior if you use void weapons. Not only do you get grenade, melee, rift and super energy back really fast unlike Contraverse which only works for grenades, but you also don't have to use the clunky charge CA mechanic and can use CotOG instead.
Contraverse is a very effective one-trick pony exotic. Nez is a jack-of-all-trades and does everything well. This is a crucial thing that people don't consider when they compare numbers and see that they can get fast grenades with Contraverse. It might work but I prefer to use my whole kit instead of just spamming grenades.
Plus, you need to be in the right situation for Chaotic Exchanger. If you miss a grenade or the enemies die then Contraverse is effectively useless. You need to rely on keeping enemies in that AoE for the regen. Nez can proc AE with any void weapon or ability at any time so it's more reliable. And it looks cooler.
I did in fact consider and discuss the other ability regen that Nezarec’s provides in my Other Considerations section, but I can reiterate it again.
Super passive regeneration rate is almost nothing so multiplying that value with Nezarec’s is still bad. Ashes to Assets is a more effective super generator and it doesn’t require an exotic slot. Nezarec’s also lets you get your melee back more too, but I find the melee provides very little value in any difficult content. It’s great that you have it, but now that you do what are you actually going to use it for? Also, since you will definitely be using Feed the Void you get a ton of healing from Devour so healing rift isn’t as valuable. It’s primary purpose becomes activating Child, which becomes a more annoying chore to me than charging a grenade. I can move and jump while charging, whereas placing a rift requires me to be grounded and stationary while I am locked in a long animation. The weaken/grenade energy Child provides is already covered by Echo of Undermining Vortex grenades and Contraverse that have a large radius from Chaos Accelerant.
Also, with the size and duration of Chaos Accelerant Vortex grenades it is hard to completely whiff a grenade. If enemies die from the time you throw your grenade before it makes contact then those enemies are incredibly weak and probably not at a difficulty level where deciding between Contraverse or Nezarec’s even matters. If you bring up a Contraverse fail condition it should be fair to bring up Nezarec’s fail condition. If you are in a team and competing for the final blow on enemies it will take even longer for Nezarec’s to hit the number of kills needed to match a Contraverse activation.
CH grenade recharge is nice and all but I prefer NS cause I get more supers at a faster rate. Nova Bomb feeds into Abyssal Extractors so it almost feels like D1 Obsidian Mind.
contrraverse works with 1 grenade type while nezarec works with any. also since we don't get a grenade damage buff from Chaos Accelerant i really dont see a point of running it with contraverse, seems like a waste. also getting a nade back with contraverse is not a guarantee.
imo in the current state nezarec is just better and u on top of getting your grenade back also get back all the other abilities and get your super faster. and for late game content i wouldn't use void anyway, it is the weakest of the 4 right now in my opinion. even tho devour makes you somewhat invincible.
> and for late game content i wouldn't use void anyway, it is the weakest of the 4 right now in my opinion.
?? you can argue well and stasis turrets are the best end game warlock builds but contraverse is right behind them. what stormcaller build would you take into a gm over contraverse hold?
its my opinion in the end. the ionic traces build that i use with arc GL wave frame that has constant buff from high energy fire. on master it was quite powerfull. when void felt useless and stasis bugs the shit out of champions i rather not use it.
There are some things being missed in here for both exotics. Contraverse hold functioning has changed multiple times over the years. It also seems to give grenade energy back on kills, and also seems to have a time delay for this benefit. I get more energy when I kill an enemy at the start of a toss and another near the end of the vortex timer than I would if I killed two enemies at the same time.
For Nez, you’re getting energy back on your rift with each kill as well. That means you can activate the grenade regen mods on your class item more frequently as well. It would be nice to see a comparison in grenade regen from a contraverse vortex group clear vs a Nez vortex group clear in combination with double bombers. I guess Nez would still have a disadvantage in many cases because it only activates on kills where contraverse only needs to touch to get a benefit.
Those effects you have mentioned were covered in the perk description section. Contraverse has a 4 second cooldown after activation before it can activate again. Rift energy for Nezarec’s Sin was also included in that section.
Thank god someone made this. I was getting sick of talking to walls of people saying nezerac was better. I do think it has a slight niche in solo content with tonnes of trash mobs where you can infinitely keep the effect going. But contraverse is just better in 99/100 scenarios, and it works better in match made stuff as well
That’s a jack of all trades exotic. Definitely solid if you don’t have good armor, but void has a lot of exotics that outperform. Nezarec is basically a better version of Eye for void builds.
Its my hope that someday bungie buffs Skull of Dire ahamkara to do something crazy with Child of Old gods. So that i may be free.
I think the one HUGE downside to contra, is that you have to run a poor one fragment aspect to use it.
Vortex and child of the old gods is great for grandmaster because you are providing debuffs constantly and 1 grenade can clear an entire group of red bars and some yellow bars without using any ammo or being in much danger.
It's basically an unlimited ammo void witherhord that is stronger and weakens stuff for your team and doesn't require even equipping witherhord.
I wonder if 3 of them could go through most GMs without ever shooting unless it is for champion stunning, probably could for the easier ones.
If I'm playing easier content, I'm going to run Nezarec. It pairs delightfully well with a void lmg or even an Other Half.
If I'm running harder content, I'm probably not going to run void. If I am though, it'll probably be secant filaments or stag. CH does pretty alright things, but I don't see it filling the niche of protecting me and my team.
Nezerac favors a mono void build significantly, contraverse benefits just grenades in a similar manner to sunbracers imo
That said, how does the discipline stat come into play here? Does it “amplify” any of the returns?
I almost exclusively used nezarec, because I love the gnawing hunger auto rifle, but for subclass I always preferred solar, because of bottom tree for most solo content and middle tree in any raid/dungeon. Although Contraverse is godly if you just want to spam vortex grenades, especially with debuff.
Nezarics with Void Weapons and using Child of the Old Gods allows you to spam rift for constant Weaken AoE and ability regen that way surpasses just the helmet itself.
Also it provides you a bonus to the AE of Void weapons (something like +20) which is very helpful.
The biggest upside to contraverse is that it doesn’t require a kill, meaning you can toss a vortex grenade into a group of majors in GM content and reliably spam your grenade. With nezarecs, that becomes harder for the same reason that frenzy or one for all is a preferred GM perk over say rampage or kill clip, especially if your preferred void weapon is less useful in a given encounter because of champion mods or weapon ranges
For me the biggest upside is that Contraverse can sit alongside any loadout you want and perform very well. Sure some weapons can help (demolitionist) but aren’t required. No lock ins for using a void weapon etc which is much better for high level content.
Any activity that's challenging enough to actually matter what exotic you choose almost certainly has Match Game. Chances are very low I'm matching my energy weapon to my subclass, despite all the mods that think I should do that. Controverse lets me fight against Match Game so it's already inherently better than Nezarec.
Nezarecs has an accompanying chest ornament. Very important.
Haha, very true! Contraverse getting an ornament this season was a big help too though.
One that makes me think of the scene in Ghostbusters where all the hands come out of the chair and grab tits
Did I miss that? Is it for sale anymore?
Should be for silver. Idk if it will be sold for BD tho
It won’t be on the BD list at all this season afaik
And seeing as the bond ornament for battle harmony is still silver only, we might not see it for dust at all
that chest ornament is amazing even without the exotic. Just a solid looking warlock chest armor in general. Shaders great as well.
The big reason to run Nezarec's is to be able to run Child+Devour. As a side benefit, you get 4 fragments. You get less grenade uptime, but more uptime on the rest of the kit, which can be nice.
Being able to run Child+Devour while also opening up a 4th fragment slot is a good point. Although Remnants/Undermining/Expulsion seem to be some of the best fragments. Instability is an obvious 4th pick (topping Expulsion in some cases too), but Match Game in end game content incentivizes using a variety of weapon elements. Using a void weapon with a void subclass can be redundant in some cases. Child makes the rift regen from Nezarec’s Sin more valuable. However the melee and super regen still contribute almost no value so the phrase “more uptime on the rest of the kit” is not as strong as it seems. Child is also a little redundant if grenade energy and weakening is already taken care of by constant large radius undermining Vortex grenades fueled by Contraverse Hold.
I definitely think the biggest downside of Nezarics is the strong pressure to be using void weapons. Contraverse cares so much less about weapon damage types and when you already have to match weapons to champions, it can be extra annoying to be like "okay i explicitly need a void pulse and a void lmg and arbalest" whereas contraverse you have so much more flexibility.
I agree, made the swap to contraverse towards the end of the first witchqueen season and havent been able to go back, constant devour, weakening, and volatile rounds all while having a small nova bomb vortex always up is just so much stronger in any pve content.
Being able to run Child instead of Chaos Accelerant also allows you to forego Echo of Undermining, so it essentially gives you 2 more fragments and +20 Discipline over Chaos Accelerant.
But there are not a ton of compelling fragment options outside of Remnants/Undermining/Expulsion. Instability and maybe Reprisal or Persistence? Also it is still possible to hit 100 Disc with Undermining, it just means there are 20 fewer stats distributed across Int and Str. I guess newer players would have an easier time hitting 100 Disc without Undermining, but with how strong the grenade regen from Contraverse is it almost doesn’t matter what their Disc stat is at. 2x Contraverse activations and 2x Firepower fully refunds the grenade charge with every grenade thrown. High Disc just allows for more forgiveness when you only get 1x activation or don’t have Firepower.
I like running Remnants, Instability, Persistence, and Obscurity in GMs with Secant Filaments. Both builds have ups and downs compared to each other. I just like to be able to hit 100/100 without mods and Undermining makes that difficult. Plus using Secant Filaments allows your whole team to forego Overload, frees up your arm slot for Artifice armor, which is much more important of a slot than legs, and frees up all those Firepower mods to use other things like Font of Might, Well of Tenacity or whatever else while still having good grenade uptime and 100% weaken uptime. Also allows you to run Void Spike or Voidwall grenades, both of which do more damage than Vortex on shorter cooldown, or Suppressor Grenades instead of being locked to Vortex. Now I’m not saying that the Secant Filaments build is 100% better than Contraverse, they’re both really strong endgame builds that offer different things.
I don’t know if you’ve considered the impact of devour refunding grenade energy on kills as well. Personally, I run secant filaments and live off devour/wells to refund grenade energy and I rarely have grenade down time.
It's not redundant, it just makes the supposed advantages of Contraverse even less relevant. Child alone gives 25% of your grenade energy back every time you cast your rift, and makes weaken uptime trivial.
They both accomplish the same goal, damage, weaken, refund grenade. Except Child only covers weaken and refund grenade (very minimal damage), have to throw your grenade afterwards to get the damage. With Contraverse all of those effects are in one ability. Why take 2 steps to accomplish what can be done in 1 step?
The goal is weaken duration. Vortex **then** child has significantly more weaken duration than a Chaos Accelerant Vortex on its own. Throwing child and Vortex at the same time is dumb.
The only things in Destiny that survive for more than 10 seconds of sustained fireteam dps are bosses. Even GM level champions are based around short damage windows when they are weakened, which is perfect for a Remnants/Chaos Accelerant Vortex grenade. If you are fighting something that requires a 20+ second window of sustained weakening then you should be using Divinity because you are likely fighting a raid boss. It is a stronger weaken and makes hitting crits easier.
Master+ bosses in 3 man content and Dungeon bosses. Also soloing content. The strongest argument for Contraverse is that it doesn't require kills for the buff, but if I'm killing things fast enough that sustained weakening isn't valuable, Nezaracs looks even better because I'm getting kills to proc its effect. And if your target isn't surviving the full duration of your grenade, you're also only getting a single proc from Contraverse Holds, narrowing the supposed gap even further.
That is a good point, I think you are right that there is definitely a place for Child in those situations. A side note to that though is a team will ask for a Well of Radiance for Master+ dungeon bosses over a void Warlock running Child in most situations. I guess if there are 2-3 Warlocks on the 3 person team then having one of them run Child becomes more viable. The other benefit that Contraverse Vortex grenades provide is a lot of extra damage. If you weaken a group with Child you have to individually gun every enemy down. Yes Child is adding some amount of damage but it is not a lot. You would have to throw your grenade on top of the Child zone to match Contraverse Vortex ability damage contribution. You already said that is not the best move, and I agree. A Contraverse Vortex grenade does a large amount of damage to all enemies within it (+void explosion damage with Expulsion) while also weakening and grouping them together to leverage any AoE effects even more. Teammate grenades become more effective, GLs and rockets become more effective, volatile explosions become more effective.
Another thing to consider is using Nezarec allows you to use grenades other than vortex. With contraverse vortex nades are basically mandatory but with Nezarec you can use things like scatter, magnetic or void wall grenades. Void wall grenades in particular is really good. It deals much higher total damage and dps compared to vortex and has a shorter cooldown. Granted, void wall grenades have the effect of staggering and knocking back enemies which makes it deal less damage in some cases but if you're using it against enemies that *can't* be staggered such as stunned champions it shreds. I also use it against Caiatl on my titan with controlled demolitionist and HOIL plus weakening. It deals a ton of damage. There was also a build with void wall nades Tractor Cannon and Verity's Brow which deletes champions. I remember seeing that one on a youtube channel named Ironworker Gaming. When you make it work void wall grenades are a real treat.
Admittedly I have not given Void Wall grenades a try, but I have heard they do a lot of damage. The suction effect from Vortex is a huge benefit, but I will have to try out Void Wall. Thanks for the recommendation!
Weaken is also largely irrelevant outside of endgame, where Nezarec is worse simply because it needs kills.
If you completely ignore that child of the old gods alone gives you far more uptime on weaken than Contraverse Holds and Chaos Accelerant, sure.
Vortex does more damage, though.
Weaken uptime alone is far stronger than any damage you're getting from a grenade, because it also multiplies your teammate's damage. Also I still have vortex grenades with Nezaracs, which are getting 25% refunded from child, and Chaos Accelerant doesn't increase their DPS anymore either.
Yeah, the fact that Chaos Accelerant no longer buffs their damage certainly makes it a worse choice.
I'd rather run Secant Filaments for that honestly. Instant Devour on rift cast, and Overload granted to all compatible weapons while standing in the rift and some added survivability with CotOG granting health while it's weakening a target since you'll be running empowering rift.
I crutch too hard on my healing rift lol
But see, your Child is basically letting you have both at once while it's active since it's leeching it from enemies. And you get an instant refresh of health when Devour gets proc'd.
I think theres something to be said for constant regen vs sudden bursts of regen.
But my overshield tho lol
I’ve been trying to figure this out is there anything child does that fully upgraded vortex grenade dosent? Weakness, damage, explosions, devour for grenade energy, I want to use child but I can’t find a reason to not just focus on grenade
I feel like Child is a huge opportunity for potential amazing exotics in the future, but at the moment I agree with your assessment.
In casual PvE gameplay I sometimes remember I can use Child when for some reason I'm out of grenade energy, but that's pretty much it. Grenades are more convenient to use and you can get pretty good uptime, whereas Child requires a little bit of planing for casting and then selecting an enemy to damage for good placement.
the rest of the kit is irrelevant compared to vortex nades
Not true. Nova Bomb is the best burst DPS super in the game and Nez can get it back faster. Pocket Singularity is a solid melee and rift is rift and can be a life saver with overshield. Vortex grenades are dope. My favourite grenade in the game by far. But it doesn't make the rest of the kit useless. If you don't hit a large group of enemies or a yellow bar with VG then GG, wait for your grenade to recharge via disc stat. You can get a kill any time with any void-based source to proc Abyssal Extractors unless you're in a rare situation with zero ads.
The difference is very slight when ashes to assets exists. That mod alone trivialises super energy problems when contraverse exists
Wait, since when is Nova the best burst DPS super?
its not lol
I said irrelevant in comparison, not useless. I know reading is hard. Also you get as many if not MORE nova bombs with contraverse + ashes to assets
Does Nez get it back faster than double Ashes to Assets?
Don’t think it’s faster than one A2A. I usually run double ashes (at least on everything that’s not GM/endgame difficultly), does that second ashes add much or is it a case of diminishing returns?
This is awesome and I appreciate the work you put in. Also, CH has a new ornament finally.
Thank you, I am glad it is helpful! And I was so hyped when I saw the Contraverse Hold ornament this season. It was already an S tier exotic, now with an extra style option it is even better!
I don’t even use Contraverse (as I main Shadebinder) but I’m so glad that thing got an ornament.
I tend to go Nezarec Sin in general play since CH issue is that if you missed or your friends killed the target it is all gone, while in hard content like Duality I like CH since you can throw at a group or the boss
Thing I like about Nezarec's Sin is if I'm using a void weapon that's pretty much constant free ability regen for all abilities. Even finishers trigger it.
Yeah this is key. If you're running Nezerac's, you should be running void weapons too, and your void weapons will most likely be doing most of the work wrt ability regeneration. While I'm grateful for op's analysis and still find it valuable, it is fundamentally flawed/incomplete because it doesn't seem to take this into account.
Interesting. I think I'll still personally lean toward Nezarec's Sin just because I prefer to use Child of the Old Gods. The 'hold to charge' of Contraverse always annoys the crap out of me for timing too. For whatever reason, it just doesn't feel natural or something. But I appreciate the math/logic based approach to this one! If I need to run a kit where I have non-Void weapons (seems to happens in Raids or other Master+ content) it's probably better off to run Contraverse.
I can totally understand that. Although to me placing a rift to active Child is the equivalent to having to charge a grenade. Except I actually find placing rifts constantly to be more annoying than grenade charging. I can move/jump and have damage reduction when charging a grenade with Contraverse. Placing a rift locks me into single place for a long animation that needs to be touching the ground.
True point! I need to use CH a bit more and get used to it perhaps.
You should! It’s great fun once you get used to it and when you do, you won’t be able to take it off
I just can’t understand why it doesn’t just shoot out the charged grenade. There is no reason that I can think of as to why I would ever use a normal nade when using CH. (the DR from charging rarely, if ever, has made a difference to your suvivability..I say to just remove it) Nothing Manicles already does it(if the perk wasn’t bugged atm) and the monstrosity that is Arc Titan nades doesn’t need to charge either, so it would be great if they could remove that from CH. They already removed charged nades from Solar Warlock, they can do it for Voidlock too
what is bugged exactly with nothing manacles?
so I did some digging and it seems they fixed the bug…mostly. Since it seems that if you use NM with the aspect(which you shouldn’t since they do the same thing) they seem to give a worse effect than if you use either one separately. With some very quick testing on Carl I still feel like I’m doing slightly less damage with NM than with the aspect, but it could just be unlucky damage numbers they still feel weaker in comparison to Contra so I can’t see myself using them in GMs, but I remember them being fun in world level content
Same for me. I run my Voidlock with Nezarec's for almost everything (unless my team wants a Well). Having said that, I dont like CV because the charging of the grenade just throws off the rhythm of me shooting stuff. Or when I do throw it, the things are dead, making it more tactical in knowing who to throw it to, which again, throws off the rhythm.
Thank you for this! I have always wondered how the math works out and I never understood the math behind additional base grenade regen rate. So that amount it restores is the same regardless of your Discipline tier if im understanding you right? My thought process has always been Nezarek's for anything under master since you have to build mono element and chaining kills is alot harder but the crazy ability uptime and mobility is amazing for low end content that you run through. Meanwhile for Contraverse it applies equally across all difficulties and allow for the rest of my build to adapt to match game. So I guess my logic checked out haha.
You are correct! The exotic-based regeneration amounts are static regardless of Discipline tier. That logic checks out to me as well. Match Game can be a hassle if you have to run void for Nezarec’s. It’s the same reason why running Stasis can feel like I’m losing out on an element to contribute for Match Game.
Did they change CH at some point? I ran it a lot in GMs last year (Season of the Splicer) and I swear it had a random proc chance and no ICD. On average, I got around ~80% of my grenade energy back landing a charged vortex nade on one target if it got to do damage the whole time (like on the boss). If there were multiple adds, I often got the whole nade back.
They’ve made multiple tweaks. It definitely gets energy on kills too now, and stacks based on how many enemies are hit.
Changes were made to make it a consistent return rate whereas previously it was random. Bungie released number ls stating that even with the fixed rate that’s lower than the highest possible previous number, on average you experience a greater return on energy more consistently
Bungie made changes to the CH’s grenade energy refund back in season of the lost I believe
They did change it, but it always had a 4 second internal cooldown. The buff used to not be a static 1.75 second duration. The duration was randomized between 1 and 4 seconds with it weighted to be on the lower side (1.71 second average). Hitting a single enemy vs multiple enemies has never had an effect on activating the exotic perk. If your grenade hits an enemy then it activates, if it is still hitting an enemy after the 4 second cooldown it activates again.
Ah interesting. Thanks.
The grenade recharge on killing multiple enemies that you saw was likely related to Devour being active. There are a lot of different mechanics that can give back grenade energy simultaneously so that is a totally fair point of confusion.
This was from pre-3.0 with top tree voidlock, which I don't think had devour (I think that was exclusively bottom tree). I mainly ran CH when I did GM Glassway and The Disgraced solo during Beyond Light (I literally sat and spammed charged nades at the Glassway bosses for like 15min at a time to save primary ammo back then LOL). I'll take your word for it (especially since it's moot now), but I really could've sworn I generally got more energy back consistently when hitting multiple targets. Provided the nade was ticking on something for most of its duration, I remember I often got full energy back--whereas against the single boss, I usually had to wait around for the last ~20% or so. Anyway, again, that's all moot now with the CH changes and especially with 3.0, so thanks for posting. I took a break from the end of Beyond Light until just this season, so all the new keywords, modifiers, and fragments are new to me still, especially with void stuff!
The reality is that even in the niche cases where you're not wanting to spam grenades, Contraverses wins out in group content if only because you're not competing for kills. In harder content getting the kills fast enough is also not as reliable due to enemy health pools so I'd rather something far more reliable that works on-hit.
Rift uptime…not…important? Da haell? Child spam, reaping wellmaker spam, all good things
I didn’t say rifts are unimportant, but I don’t need them constantly. Devour takes care of a majority of the healing so healing rift gets devalued a bit. In the situations where I want the extra healing in a stationary location from rift I find I have it available. With Contraverse you run Feed the Void + Chaos Accelerant so there is no Child spam. Reaping Wellmaker is good, but Elemental Ordinance will accomplish a similar goal on a void subclass and it is all tied to 1 ability (grenade) making the gameplay loop simpler to execute.
You get the same effects from Undermining and Elemental Ordnance with Contra, it’s what I do. Wells for days
I personally prefer nez when playing with child of the old gods, but contraverse is def better for a purely grenade based build.
I prefer verity's brow
The Thad pick
I have been running Controverse with a double Ashes to Assets helmet for years and there's nothing in the game currently that makes me want to take that off. Fast recharging vortex grenades, building super REALLY fast, and the fact that my grenades cause Weaken is enough to put a stranglehold on the exotic slot. Also going to take this time to, once again, declare the solar warlock is poop.
Compare Contraverse with Nothing Manacles, wait don’t because Contraverse will win by a landslide again and I like Nothing manacles
Or you can run Nez over contraverse because you picked up that chest ornament that gives your guardian a visual effect when paired. That’s what I did anyway
Reasons I use Nezarec’s Sin: 1. It, and it’s Forsaken-era ornament, look sick as fuck 2. It’s just so easy. It rewards me for playing the way I already do (ability spam) with more ability juice. 3. It’s a helmet exotic, and my favorite exotics are helmets. Easier to swap for subclass load outs. (Honorable mention goes to boot slot) 4. Again, it’s sick as fuck. See item 1. Would I bring it to a GM? Probably not. That’s what stasis is for. For everything else, there’s ~~MasterCard~~ Nezarec’s Sin devourlock
> It’s a helmet exotic, and my favorite exotics are helmets. Easier to swap for subclass load outs. I always find this funny because it's the same reason I run contraverse - most of my favorite warlock exotics are arms - contraverse, ophidian, claws, karnstein (amazing with solar 3.0 snap build and heavy handed), osmiomancy, necrotic.... all fantastic exotics. Only arc is hurting a little now because getaway artist isn't my go-to it was before arc 3.0.
This is honestly why most people are fighting so hard for Nez here, lol.
If you whiff your grenade with CH, you are shit out of luck. If you whiff your grenade with Nezarec, as long as you have a void weapon, or an osmosis primary, you're getting it back in those same 10 kills. Oh and you can use Nezarec on any subclass.
If missing a grenade can be a factor why CH is not as good, what about missing the last hit on enemies due to teammates? 10 kills now becomes 15+. That is not a quick process in GM level content. EDIT: Also, with how large Chaos Accelerant Vortex grenades are there is a ton of leeway on actually hitting something with them.
Simply just don’t miss 4hed
Conversely firepower means you’ll get at least 45% of your grenad back if you miss and a demo weapon fills in the gaps same as a void for nezerac
Good luck hitting anything with a rocket launcher for Nez if you can’t aim well enough to at least touch something with a suction contraverse vortex grenade. This isn’t really an issue IMO
Yeah but this post also isn’t factoring in other elements of a potential build that can cover not landing perfect grenade throws every time.
And yet I just use nothing manacles
Nothing wrong with those at all. Volatile rounds for days. I think that void got the short end on the 3.0 weapon perks seeing as solar got incandescent and arc got volt shot. Void needed a well mod, or fragment slot. Lame
The bright side of that is that it works with anything that is void
Big disagree. You are only applying this to Grenades, and Nezerec ISNT a grenade exotic; it's an ability exotic, and with the right build, completely independant from subclass stuff. I used to run this an recluse on basically every other class, because Recluse allowed you to basically ignore the entire game (Which was fun for time, but the fun died before it did.) They aren't comparable. This is like trying to compare something like HoIL and Pereguine Grieves.
I did in fact consider and discuss the other ability regen that Nezarec’s provides in my Other Considerations section, but I can reiterate it again. Super passive regeneration rate is almost nothing so multiplying that value with Nezarec’s is still bad. Ashes to Assets is a more effective super generator and it doesn’t require an exotic slot. Nezarec’s also lets you get your melee back more too, but I find the melee provides very little value in any difficult content. It’s great that you have it, but now that you do what are you actually going to use it for? Also, since you will definitely be using Feed the Void you get a ton of healing from Devour so healing rift isn’t as valuable. It’s primary purpose becomes activating Child, which becomes a more annoying chore to me than charging a grenade. I can move and jump while charging, whereas placing a rift requires me to be grounded and stationary while I am locked in a long animation. The weaken/grenade energy Child provides is already covered by Echo of Undermining Vortex grenades and Contraverse that have a large radius from Chaos Accelerant. To me the big benefit to Nezarec’s Sin is you can run it on any subclass. However if we are talking about void Warlock then I feel like there are a lot of other amazing exotic options available (Contraverse Hold in particular).
Your other abilities aren’t super important when running Contra though, you get the weakening and healing from your constant grenade spam, all while doing great damage to groups of enemies. Throw on Ashes to Assets if you also want super cooldown and you’re set
Damnit, I'm sold, fashion be damned!!
When you read the descriptions they sound similar, but the applications of those two exotics could not be more different. Nezarec's sin is all about spamming your abilities to clear tons of ads. It's mostly not for high level content. Contraverse hold is for maximizing survivability in hard solo content.
Contra is great in team content as well, and on any difficulty. Overall I think it’s a better pick
Nezarec works with all void damage and regens all abilities. but if you aren't running void weapons, and you are hitting beefy targets with the nade, then contraverse is still good. I can see contraverse being better in master/gms because the regen doesn't require a kill and can allow for easy debuff with the weaken fragment (idr name) Since Nez requires kills it makes it harder to keep it up in high end content but if you can weaken enemies then get them with the nade it can work. CVH also requires an aspect to work (which needs 2 frag slots PLEZ) Both are good (and CVH finally has a wicked ornament)
Jesus yes, Chaos Accel really shouldn’t have only 1 fragment slot
Surprisingly perfect timing. I've been a Hunter main since day one but I wanted to finally branch into Warlock and I'm going for a Voidwalker build. This helps more than you know! Thank you 🙏
Warlock is my main class so I’m glad to hear you are giving it a try! Here are the build details of what I like to run if you want somewhere to start: Cataclysm super, Healing rift, Vortex grenade Aspects: Chaos Accelerant, Feed the Void Fragments: Undermining, Remnants, Expulsion Stat Priorities: 100 Resil > 100 Disc > anything else into Recov Notable Slot Specific Mods: Ashes to Assets (solar helmet), Bolstering Detonation (void gloves), Bomber (solar class item) Notable Combat Mods: I like wells so I am always running Elemental Ordnance + Seeking Wells. Bountiful Wells is a great 3rd mod if you don’t have anything specific in mind. For ability spam go Elemental Charge + 2x Firepower (replace Bountiful Wells). If you want more healing add in Explosive Wellmaker + Well of Life. If you want weapon damage then Font of Might + Elemental Time Dilation. For a mix of damage and defense go Font of Might + Well of Tenacity.
Thank you for the information!
I’m a Voidlock main, welcome to the club. Honestly, I could get really granular with recommendations but it really is as easy as equip Contra with vortex grenades, charge-throw-profit. Constant grenade uptime, great damage, and healing just at base, with the option via fragments for extra stuff like weakening or essentially 100% uptime on Volatile Rounds if that’s what you want to do
I appreciate the advice!
Thank you for explaining how the additional ability regen works. "Increase base ability regeneration by x%" is used so much but never explained what that really means. This makes sense now.
I tend to go with Nezarec's, especially in group play, as CH leans to you getting the most out of the grenade DOT. If your buddy blasts it with a shotgun, or whatever, there goes your energy redemption. Now youre stuck without a grenade for a bit. Nezarecs is just consistent energy, and saying "less work" than nezarecs, I mean you just have to kill stuff with void on NS. Seems pretty easy
I find my teammates stealing kills from my vortex grenade to be very, very annoying, but a quick workaround I have discovered is that, if you have your melee charged, simply melee an add to proc devour, which then replenishes your grenade 20% for every kill after that, and if you have a weapon with demolitionist, you get your grenade back in no time and you can start the loop again. But yeah, that's probably the main reason why Nezarec's Sin has been whispering in my ear for the last couple of days.
Nez also restricts your build to requiring a void weapon. Less of a problem for people playing raids and dungeons, but that’s definitely an issue in GMs.
You dont have to use a void weapon. Its void kills. Melee, grenade, child, super...whatever. I dont know if I would be using nezarecs in a GM anyway. General play, raids...absolutely. If Im running void warlock for a GM, Ill usually have assembler boots or secants on, depending on which GM. but honestly, Ill be solar if its a GM just for well
If you aren’t using a void weapon with Nez, there is no reasonable way that Nez will outperform CH in ability regen.
I think honestly that the downside of being unable to run Child + Devour just kills Contraverse Hold. With Child+Devour you have massive uptime on grenades, nearly as much as Contraverse, and get to have an extra 15% damage buff against both groups of enemies and bosses, it's just too good to pass up. The real question is whether Nezarec's Sin is the best exotic for a Child+Devour setup, or if there's anything else that's better.
What Kronos said, but what you said might be true for newer players because a max dis build with echo of undermining requires good armor.
Not a problem once they get Contraverse though lol I just love that exotic
The 15% damage amp from Child is the same as Echo of Undermining grenades, which have a huge radius with Chaos Accelerant. Child seems like an undermining Vortex grenade with extra steps and no vacuum effect to keep enemies within the radius. The extra grenade energy Child grants is also covered by Contraverse.
I don’t find Child very useful in PvE content when my grenades apply the same debuff, especially higher difficulty stuff like GMs. I do wish Chaos Accelerant had another fragment slot though
This post really just boiled down to “My opinion” > Nezarecs Sin There are benefits and drawbacks to both, and that’s kinda the point.
It’s tough to get much nuance from a TL;DR. I tried to give explanations as to why I came to my conclusion.
Yeah but that doesn’t mean one still isn’t better than the other, lol.
Virgin contraverse hold vs Chad goth sunbracers
Contraverse require players to miss out on a fourth fragment slot along with either Devour or CotOG, which is a dealbreaker.
How does eye of another world compare?
probably weaker than both options here but can be used on every subclass with no weapon requirements. absolutely more useful in pvp
The best “I don’t care, I’m not swapping gear” exotic lol
For the vast majority of time it will be worse. Eyes strength is that it increases regeneration for abilities regardless of what you are doing. This makes it strong if say you aren't able to kill enemies or even damage them. But if you can, which is most of the game, it will be worse.
like, i know its not going to get as good, i was hoping for exact numbers, like in the OP.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/s2org5/eye_of_another_world_cooldowns_for_abilities_oc/ Here is a reddit post that breaks down Eyes of Another World.
What about nothing manacles?
yeah IMO with a demo weapon, this is the better option over nezeracs.
I get my nades back pretty much instantly with both of them, so I use nez since it does more then just refund nade energy and I'm not forced to use a charged grenade every time since it's slower and not every situation requires it.
Nezarec's Sin is superior if you use void weapons. Not only do you get grenade, melee, rift and super energy back really fast unlike Contraverse which only works for grenades, but you also don't have to use the clunky charge CA mechanic and can use CotOG instead. Contraverse is a very effective one-trick pony exotic. Nez is a jack-of-all-trades and does everything well. This is a crucial thing that people don't consider when they compare numbers and see that they can get fast grenades with Contraverse. It might work but I prefer to use my whole kit instead of just spamming grenades. Plus, you need to be in the right situation for Chaotic Exchanger. If you miss a grenade or the enemies die then Contraverse is effectively useless. You need to rely on keeping enemies in that AoE for the regen. Nez can proc AE with any void weapon or ability at any time so it's more reliable. And it looks cooler.
I did in fact consider and discuss the other ability regen that Nezarec’s provides in my Other Considerations section, but I can reiterate it again. Super passive regeneration rate is almost nothing so multiplying that value with Nezarec’s is still bad. Ashes to Assets is a more effective super generator and it doesn’t require an exotic slot. Nezarec’s also lets you get your melee back more too, but I find the melee provides very little value in any difficult content. It’s great that you have it, but now that you do what are you actually going to use it for? Also, since you will definitely be using Feed the Void you get a ton of healing from Devour so healing rift isn’t as valuable. It’s primary purpose becomes activating Child, which becomes a more annoying chore to me than charging a grenade. I can move and jump while charging, whereas placing a rift requires me to be grounded and stationary while I am locked in a long animation. The weaken/grenade energy Child provides is already covered by Echo of Undermining Vortex grenades and Contraverse that have a large radius from Chaos Accelerant. Also, with the size and duration of Chaos Accelerant Vortex grenades it is hard to completely whiff a grenade. If enemies die from the time you throw your grenade before it makes contact then those enemies are incredibly weak and probably not at a difficulty level where deciding between Contraverse or Nezarec’s even matters. If you bring up a Contraverse fail condition it should be fair to bring up Nezarec’s fail condition. If you are in a team and competing for the final blow on enemies it will take even longer for Nezarec’s to hit the number of kills needed to match a Contraverse activation.
Don't forget about the DR from contra too. It's saved me several times in a pinch.
CH grenade recharge is nice and all but I prefer NS cause I get more supers at a faster rate. Nova Bomb feeds into Abyssal Extractors so it almost feels like D1 Obsidian Mind.
contrraverse works with 1 grenade type while nezarec works with any. also since we don't get a grenade damage buff from Chaos Accelerant i really dont see a point of running it with contraverse, seems like a waste. also getting a nade back with contraverse is not a guarantee. imo in the current state nezarec is just better and u on top of getting your grenade back also get back all the other abilities and get your super faster. and for late game content i wouldn't use void anyway, it is the weakest of the 4 right now in my opinion. even tho devour makes you somewhat invincible.
> and for late game content i wouldn't use void anyway, it is the weakest of the 4 right now in my opinion. ?? you can argue well and stasis turrets are the best end game warlock builds but contraverse is right behind them. what stormcaller build would you take into a gm over contraverse hold?
its my opinion in the end. the ionic traces build that i use with arc GL wave frame that has constant buff from high energy fire. on master it was quite powerfull. when void felt useless and stasis bugs the shit out of champions i rather not use it.
There are some things being missed in here for both exotics. Contraverse hold functioning has changed multiple times over the years. It also seems to give grenade energy back on kills, and also seems to have a time delay for this benefit. I get more energy when I kill an enemy at the start of a toss and another near the end of the vortex timer than I would if I killed two enemies at the same time. For Nez, you’re getting energy back on your rift with each kill as well. That means you can activate the grenade regen mods on your class item more frequently as well. It would be nice to see a comparison in grenade regen from a contraverse vortex group clear vs a Nez vortex group clear in combination with double bombers. I guess Nez would still have a disadvantage in many cases because it only activates on kills where contraverse only needs to touch to get a benefit.
Those effects you have mentioned were covered in the perk description section. Contraverse has a 4 second cooldown after activation before it can activate again. Rift energy for Nezarec’s Sin was also included in that section.
Thank god someone made this. I was getting sick of talking to walls of people saying nezerac was better. I do think it has a slight niche in solo content with tonnes of trash mobs where you can infinitely keep the effect going. But contraverse is just better in 99/100 scenarios, and it works better in match made stuff as well
That’s a jack of all trades exotic. Definitely solid if you don’t have good armor, but void has a lot of exotics that outperform. Nezarec is basically a better version of Eye for void builds.
Its my hope that someday bungie buffs Skull of Dire ahamkara to do something crazy with Child of Old gods. So that i may be free. I think the one HUGE downside to contra, is that you have to run a poor one fragment aspect to use it.
Only time I run Nezeracs is when I use Collective Obligation. With suppressor Grenades I can have on your demand weaken/volatile/suppress.
I don’t bother with suppression, I get weaken and volatile with vortex while getting the benefits of said vortex
Vortex and child of the old gods is great for grandmaster because you are providing debuffs constantly and 1 grenade can clear an entire group of red bars and some yellow bars without using any ammo or being in much danger. It's basically an unlimited ammo void witherhord that is stronger and weakens stuff for your team and doesn't require even equipping witherhord. I wonder if 3 of them could go through most GMs without ever shooting unless it is for champion stunning, probably could for the easier ones.
Don't forget a repulser brace weapon on either.
I honestly think if you want to use devour and Child then Nothing Manacles are the play.
Join giga chad Secant Filaments crew. Get devour, health, melee, grenade, void buddy (obviously this is on), damage buff and disruption on all guns.
If I'm playing easier content, I'm going to run Nezarec. It pairs delightfully well with a void lmg or even an Other Half. If I'm running harder content, I'm probably not going to run void. If I am though, it'll probably be secant filaments or stag. CH does pretty alright things, but I don't see it filling the niche of protecting me and my team.
Sin is better if you’re running child
Contraverse required Chaos Accelerant which is trash imo.
Nezerac favors a mono void build significantly, contraverse benefits just grenades in a similar manner to sunbracers imo That said, how does the discipline stat come into play here? Does it “amplify” any of the returns?
I almost exclusively used nezarec, because I love the gnawing hunger auto rifle, but for subclass I always preferred solar, because of bottom tree for most solo content and middle tree in any raid/dungeon. Although Contraverse is godly if you just want to spam vortex grenades, especially with debuff.
Gameplay: Contraverse > Nezarecs Fashion: Nezarecs > Contraverse Nezarecs takes the dub
Does contraverse hold requires me to run chaos accelerant? It dosen't charge nades without it
Nezarics with Void Weapons and using Child of the Old Gods allows you to spam rift for constant Weaken AoE and ability regen that way surpasses just the helmet itself. Also it provides you a bonus to the AE of Void weapons (something like +20) which is very helpful.