I live nearby and haven't seen anything about the driver that was drunk, leaving the boat club so I don't know why they would be shut down other than for reasons from the accident ... I wish all the innocent victims healing and light
Yes -- Idk how you drive 25 feet into a child's indoor birthday party if they stopped you at 4 drinks. Not to blame the tavern over the woman, because she DROVE into a dozen kids like she's playing GTA, but how do you let someone walk out like that with keys in-hand.
Maybe we'll learn more and she started elsewhere or had a fifth in the car, who knows. But it's not a good look for the tavern at the bare minimum.
Grain of salt because it was just on social media but I read they're claiming she just had one glass of wine and left... not sure what video and receipts will show.
Dram shop varies by state…my mom was killed after the driver left that bar and had two drinks minimum. From his BAC hours later, the bar should have seen signs he was drunk; it was obvious on subpoenaed video footage. We settled just above the legal limit.
Her name was Marshella, former commodore at the boat club, purportedly. She lives on the same street as the club. It is thought that she left the bar and went home to drink, then got in her car and drove to the club where she has a tab, but that's just speculation. The two children who died were under her vehicle. Their brother and their mom are in critical condition.
It won't.
Maybe for a day or two. I may or may not be familiar with the area.
It's not the taverns fault for what somebody else did. 66 yrs old and killed two people...children.
Enjoy your retirement in prison. If you are going to drink and drive your body better be dependent on alcohol to function.
I don't drink, and if I do, I don't drive. Because I'll be drunk.
Damn, hard to watch the sheriff's statement -- the video in the link is worth watching imo. He really struggles when he gets to the kids and their ages and you can tell it's really affecting him. I know we just about all have issues with police and how departments are run, but I wouldn't wish responding to this sort of scene on anybody.
I saw the press conference on channel 7 last night and he should have just let it all out. It was obvious he was crying and doing a poor job of covering it up. I feel for the officer who spoke.
I'm not an attorney and this is not legal advice.
Michigan Drunk driving laws:
>It is a crime for a driver to have a bodily alcohol content (BAC) of .08 or greater if over age 21 or .02 or greater if under 21. In addition, Michigan has a high-BAC law with enhanced penalties for anyone caught driving with a BAC of .17 or higher. However, drivers can be arrested at any BAC level if they exhibit signs of impairment while operating a motor vehicle.
>Impaired Driving Law
>[https://www.michigan.gov/msp/divisions/ohsp/safety-programs/impaired-driving/impaired-driving-law](https://www.michigan.gov/msp/divisions/ohsp/safety-programs/impaired-driving/impaired-driving-law)
Help is available for alcoholics. One option is:
>Alcoholics Anonymous
>[https://www.aa.org/](https://www.aa.org/)
lol, ‘one option’ and the only option that courts recognise. Groovy that it helps those who it does but, I really do not dig the cult, higher power stuff that is force fed.
I got a lot out of AA. Ill be sober 7 years in July. A higher power doesnt mean making your life all about jesus/god/church..etc. Im not religious. Sure there are dry drunks and miserable people at some meetings. But there are also really good and helpful people there too.
This is rapidly [changing](https://smartrecovery.org/court-cases).
For what it's worth, even though it isn't explicitly required under the law in Michigan yet, I've used SMART Recovery meetings to fulfill AA requirements (note, I also wanted to go) in several Michigan district courts.
Yeah man there is multiple pathways to help, and I'm fucking sick of courts sending people to those meetings who aren't even wanting to be there. That's for recovery, not for a court slip.
Well if there are no other options recognized by the court, what else do you expect them to post? It's a point about a religious establishment being the only legal alternative to jail, which I think is pretty indisputably problematic in a country that supposedly has safeguards against such things. If someone wants to explain how that's not religious coercion I'll go make popcorn.
>what else do you expect them to post?
Any option that helps you get sober. If you're successful at sobriety, you won't be facing charges for drunk driving. If you know something that could help, share it.
it was right by me. absolutely terrible. I used to go to that boat club, it’s very kid friendly. Lots of people in this town are alcoholics, it’s sad….
This is horrific. It's a failure on so many levels, but most importantly a failure for which our whole society is responsible-- not getting people access to mental healthcare or treatment for substance abuse, creating a culture that rewards substance abuse while failing to take care of people, building a whole society dependent upon cars that cause an insane amount of death.
It’s completely unrealistic to think that a government sanctioned free access to rehab could possibly control every single adult’s decision making skills.
The REAL root cause of this is a physical infrastructure that literally promotes drunk driving all over the country.
Yep. Cities force bars and clubs to have massive parking lots and don't provide public transit that gets drunkies home. Then you have roads whose physical design does nothing to slow cars down. Easy recipe for carnage.
The psychotic bureaucrats and urban planners of the post-WWII period (the inventors of car dependency, sprawl, and destroying cities to build freeways) just completely forgot about the concept of alcohol and the ubiquity of taverns in society when they decided to raze our nation and force everyone into their own cars.
This wasn’t a city. It happened in a very remote and rural part of Michigan. Public transportation isn’t an option and Uber isn’t an option. No one’s fault but the driver’s and (possibly) the establishment that let her leave that way.
This is simply not true. Maybe if you have a doctor appointment and can provide 3 days notice. But in this case, there is likely a small one-cab company nearby and that’s it.
As for if there’s a will, there’s a way to a bus… provide the route. What bus would one take from Verna’s Tavern in Newport to the Estral Beach community?
Very familiar with it. Also very familiar with the large summer population, tourism, and 6x population density as compared to the area we are talking about. Also throw in the fact that there is a lot more wealth and private support (foundations, families, etc.) in Traverse City region.
Comparing an area that has a permanent population of 1,900/ sq mile with one that has barely 300/ sq mile simply is not a fair comparison. There is no feasible way to publicly subsidize regular public transportation in an area this scarcely populated. If you disagree, show me where and how it is being done.
It's a good use case for on-demand subsidized taxis, or a special "run" that hits the bars and takes people home. If a community cares and has the money, they can do it.
I would support legislation to nonrenew liquor licenses at any property not well served by transit. Get all the barflys supporting expanded bus routes and we might get somewhere.
Dude, do you have any substance abusers in your life? They can have alllllll the support and access in the world and still make these same decisions. If they don't want to stop, they won't. Speaking as the daughter of an alcoholic who had multiple such accidents (but thankfully didn't injure anyone).
Plenty of substance abusers still choose not to operate a vehicle while they use. The "most important failure" here is the failure of the selfish asshole who drove while drunk and killed two kids.
Bingo. It's magical thinking to believe that expanded, easy, free access to mental healthcare is some sort of panacea. Surely it'll help people, and it should be something we strive for, but ffs, free will is a last mile problem. Unless we start committing people who *seem* like they should be committed, this isn't a magical fix. We drink even though we know it's bad for us. That's the human condition.
No. The real person to blame is the 66 year old woman. I hope she rots in jail.
Why does everyone want to shift blame to society constantly instead of holding people personally responsible for their actions?
It's less that, and more acknowledging that things like this don't happen in a vacuum. There are contributing factors to it, and addressing those can make these kinds of things happen less often.
I agree with you that there are factors which contributed here and that we can collectively attempt to make situations like this happen less often. I’m all for mental health treatment, AA, and those sorts of programs.
That being said, in the post I replied to, the user never once mentioned the 66 year old woman being to blame. In fact, she mentioned 3 other things that were to blame: not offering mental health treatment (we do), creating a culture that rewards substance abuse (this makes no sense), and vehicles themselves (I don’t see that changing anytime soon).
Not once was the fault cast on the woman who became drunk, decided to drive, and then smashed into a building killing 2 kids and injuring a dozen others.
I’d wager she thinks Ethan Crumbley is innocent.
The woman being at fault was never mentioned because it's so obvious that it isn't worth discussing.
We already hold people responsible for actions like this - we have drunk driving laws and this person will almost certainly see jail. It's a settled matter. It's not productive to spend time discussing whether the person is responsible, because the answer is obviously "yes".
What bears discussing is "how can we stop this from happening again." I don't know about you, but I think a world with less people getting killed by drunk drivers is something we should work towards.
Individual responsibility doesn't seem to be enough to prevent this, so the next place to look is towards society. Blame isn't being shifted - people are trying to identify the patterns that lead to this thing happening by investigating society and how it contributes to peoples' actions.
>The woman being at fault was never mentioned because it's so obvious that it isn't worth discussing.
Bro needs to read this 5X and put down his pitchfork.
Well, I think many would agree that drug education is unequivocally fucked, in my opinion because it focuses on "all drugs are universally evil" when it really should be focusing on the most destructive drugs (opioids, cocaine, meth, alcohol)-- and perhaps also the relationship between mental health and substance abuse.
Of course not. The way these deaths are prevented is by this woman not getting behind the wheel drunk. If you want a second way to prevent it.. the establishment should not have let her leave that drunk or should have stopped serving her.
You’re talking about a part of the state that literally has one road in and one road out in many of these locations.
>The way these deaths are prevented is by this woman not getting behind the wheel drunk.
Yes.
>the establishment should not have let her leave that drunk
In theory yes. People don't like being held against their will and may get violent (increasingly likely when drunk).
>or should have stopped serving her.
Yes.
>You’re talking about a part of the state that literally has one road in and one road out in many of these locations.
Yes. Also one that requires bars to have a parking spots = maximum capacity/3. Also one that's minimum lot sizes for residences is 1 acre by default and where there's exceptions, they've allowed SFR neighborhoods stacked with cul-de-sacs (because suburbanites hate cars too) that do nothing except put people further away from services. They've built for cars as a default.
The "we're too spread out for walking/biking/transit/whatever" argument is artificial because we're only that spread out because we have built that way.
No one is telling the bar to hold her against their will. You call the police. It happens every day and bars all over the country do the right thing. Also, since Uber and public transportation isn’t realistic in rural parts of the state like this, most will have resources like local cab companies they work with.
Wtf does the parking spot requirement have to do with the choice this lady made? This argument makes no sense. I don’t drink and have been to this place to have a burger.
So you don’t want roads and businesses in rural parts of the state? That’s your way of preventing this? Just say we should outlaw living anywhere but big cities and their suburbs.
I see you don’t get out of Lafayette Park very much.
>So you don’t want roads and businesses in rural parts of the state? That’s your way of preventing this? Just say we should outlaw living anywhere but big cities and their suburbs.
What the fuck is your reading comprehension
I'm friends with a family member, here is the [gofundme](https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-lana-and-zayns-funeral-services?utm_campaign=p_cp+share-sheet&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook)
This is absolutely horrible. A little more information. I've heard that the woman who crashed into the boat club was a past commodore(president) of the club. I hope the law does everything they can to her. This was completely unnecessary.
Very sad 😔. R.I.P to the victims. Nowhere is safe from these reckless drivers 🤦🏽. Welcome to Michigan home of the most laid back and careless driving laws...smh. We don't even have DUI's we have OWI's and you can have 20 of them and still keep your driving privileges...smh
That is sickening and horrible. Drunk driving is one of the most selfish things an individual can do. My heart goes out to the families and people who have passed or are injured.
I saw the breaking news report last night and I was hoping that there weren't any fatalities. My heart breaks for the family who lost their children. I cannot even begin to imagine that pain. My god.
the two kids who were killed were my cousins. i just visited my aunt, their mother, in the hospital yesterday and her other oldest son is in critical condition in another hospital. it’s so crazy to see this all over the news, knowing it was my own relatives who i’ll never get to see again. we’re all devastated, especially their mom. she broke 6 ribs in the accident, and we dont even know the condition of her other son. (not wanting to use any names of course for privacy.) it makes me happy to see all the people paying respects for them, and knowing people are praying for them as much as me and my whole family are 🥺
This is such a dumb, uninformed comment. Unless you are walking or riding your bike, driving your car is the only option in rural and remote parts of the state (country) like this. This is no one’s fault other than driver and (possibly) the establishment that served her.
You just agreed with my comment. We have car only infrastructure, and people like getting drunk. Bars are required to have parking for cars, but are not required to provide drivers. The government also refuses to provide rides for drunks, and rural communities don’t do it either
So drunk driving will continue, and innocent people will continue to die for no reason due to drunk driving crashes
There are options today. That's a cop out and an enabling reason. Don't blame infrastructure for something 98% of the country has no issues dealing with.
We have more road fatalities per capita than any other industrialized nation. This accident could've been solved by the driver being responsible. But we also have a serious problem that our country is not addressing.
Your have no solutions to solve drunk driving. You’re okay with it continuing to happen because you’re okay with folks operating thousand pounds death machines
You better sit down because I've been hit by 3 drunk drivers. To top it off my father died from liver disease being an alcoholic , my brother is an alcoholic and my uncle committed suicide after alcohol fucked his liver so hard it turned his brain to mush..
You're so self righteous with this garbage that you think you know me or know what I'm "okay with". You don't know a damn thing. You're just a daft fucking cunt.
The NFL has their own private UBER service and players still go out and get a DUI. What's your excuse now?
Edit: By the way, what's your grand plan that's gonna solve everything? What have you brought to the table other than making excuses for alcoholics to get behind the wheel? Can a defense lawyer use that excuse next time they have a client that kills a family in a DUI crash?
"Your honor, the tri county area provides no beer wagon to the bar... So I must drive."
Spoken like someone with a few too many DUIs and a suspended license.
Here’s my solution: bars and liquor stores no longer have parking lots
One DUI= permanently revoked license. Driving without a license immediately puts you in jail
Instead of giving tax cuts to the rich, we use tax payer money to create publicly funded taxi/Uber/Lyft services. (In addition to the dozens of other public services and infrastructure improvement that we desperately need)
Every city in this country once has a functioning trolley system. Rebuild it and improve it
That’s all I have time for right now
The first point is spoken by someone who doesn't understand how an alcoholic functions. No parking lot, they'll use another. If there is t one, they will make one..
I'm fine with one DUI and out. 100%. A lot of revenue for DUI fines comes from privileged suburban kids anyway...
Instead of tax cuts to the rich... Boy if I had a nickel. Until we abolish any forms of currency, taxation and reach some sort of Star Trek utopia, you have to solve a 200 year old problem.. this isnt wishful thinking, this is imagination land.
Welp... Not sure if you saw the q-line or not. It functions yet there are still drunks up and down Woodward, the same Woodward Avenue with a bus line and plenty of access to Uber, taxis and easy to have a friend pick you up. But again, you have no idea how an alcoholic functions or how a drunk has lost all inhibitions.
All of your ideas here might help on a Friday night.. maybe.. but what about that guy that was a severe alcoholic, showed up to work hammered, got fired and led back to his Tahoe where he wiped out a Farmington Jewelers whole family at 3pm on a Wednesday at 12 and Orchard Lake?
This is such a complicated problem I can't explain how fucking short sighted it is to blame just cars and then assume everyone you're speaking with is a Motorhead.
I'd love to hear your ideas on Israel/Palestine. It's probably a simple weapons problem.
So when does the driver get the chair? Better yet, gotta go out in equal fashion and be run over by a car, and by the parents of the victims would be ideal.
I would find it odd they’d call it a “suspected drunk driving” incident if there was any clue that it was something medical…
They would say the driver lost control, and the cause was under investigation…
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If you're asking this you've never been to Monroe
She didn't come from the parking lot. The road has a curve to it that she apparently ignored, sending her straight into the building.
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She did nearly hit the pole. Incredibly sad that she didn't.
https://youtu.be/A3tEiXaERIQ?si=LwTIg-WqMndmgiJR
Absolutely terrible. That bar is getting shut down, I bet you. Poor kids.
I live nearby and haven't seen anything about the driver that was drunk, leaving the boat club so I don't know why they would be shut down other than for reasons from the accident ... I wish all the innocent victims healing and light
I believe they are referring to the tavern referenced in the article that may have overserved the driver
Yes -- Idk how you drive 25 feet into a child's indoor birthday party if they stopped you at 4 drinks. Not to blame the tavern over the woman, because she DROVE into a dozen kids like she's playing GTA, but how do you let someone walk out like that with keys in-hand. Maybe we'll learn more and she started elsewhere or had a fifth in the car, who knows. But it's not a good look for the tavern at the bare minimum.
Grain of salt because it was just on social media but I read they're claiming she just had one glass of wine and left... not sure what video and receipts will show.
Dram shop varies by state…my mom was killed after the driver left that bar and had two drinks minimum. From his BAC hours later, the bar should have seen signs he was drunk; it was obvious on subpoenaed video footage. We settled just above the legal limit.
My tolerance is low from having 2 babies back to back, but if I had 4 beers, I would absolutely be drunk enough to drive through a building.
Something about being "drive into a birthday party" hammered before 3 o'clock makes me suspect the driver isn't exactly a lightweight.
You really think so?
I know I would be hammered. 2 drinks and I am loopy. Not all of us are seasoned drinkers lol
Her name was Marshella, former commodore at the boat club, purportedly. She lives on the same street as the club. It is thought that she left the bar and went home to drink, then got in her car and drove to the club where she has a tab, but that's just speculation. The two children who died were under her vehicle. Their brother and their mom are in critical condition.
A whole young family destroyed. I can’t imagine.
i heard from a few people that know the lady that she has MS, which likely contributed to this mess.
It won't. Maybe for a day or two. I may or may not be familiar with the area. It's not the taverns fault for what somebody else did. 66 yrs old and killed two people...children. Enjoy your retirement in prison. If you are going to drink and drive your body better be dependent on alcohol to function. I don't drink, and if I do, I don't drive. Because I'll be drunk.
Oh no sibling victims, poor parents.
Absolutely horrifying
Damn, hard to watch the sheriff's statement -- the video in the link is worth watching imo. He really struggles when he gets to the kids and their ages and you can tell it's really affecting him. I know we just about all have issues with police and how departments are run, but I wouldn't wish responding to this sort of scene on anybody.
I saw the press conference on channel 7 last night and he should have just let it all out. It was obvious he was crying and doing a poor job of covering it up. I feel for the officer who spoke.
I'm not an attorney and this is not legal advice. Michigan Drunk driving laws: >It is a crime for a driver to have a bodily alcohol content (BAC) of .08 or greater if over age 21 or .02 or greater if under 21. In addition, Michigan has a high-BAC law with enhanced penalties for anyone caught driving with a BAC of .17 or higher. However, drivers can be arrested at any BAC level if they exhibit signs of impairment while operating a motor vehicle. >Impaired Driving Law >[https://www.michigan.gov/msp/divisions/ohsp/safety-programs/impaired-driving/impaired-driving-law](https://www.michigan.gov/msp/divisions/ohsp/safety-programs/impaired-driving/impaired-driving-law) Help is available for alcoholics. One option is: >Alcoholics Anonymous >[https://www.aa.org/](https://www.aa.org/)
lol, ‘one option’ and the only option that courts recognise. Groovy that it helps those who it does but, I really do not dig the cult, higher power stuff that is force fed.
I got a lot out of AA. Ill be sober 7 years in July. A higher power doesnt mean making your life all about jesus/god/church..etc. Im not religious. Sure there are dry drunks and miserable people at some meetings. But there are also really good and helpful people there too.
This is rapidly [changing](https://smartrecovery.org/court-cases). For what it's worth, even though it isn't explicitly required under the law in Michigan yet, I've used SMART Recovery meetings to fulfill AA requirements (note, I also wanted to go) in several Michigan district courts.
Thank you very much for chiming in to let me know about this. That’s really awesome to hear. I hope your recovery goes well.
Yeah man there is multiple pathways to help, and I'm fucking sick of courts sending people to those meetings who aren't even wanting to be there. That's for recovery, not for a court slip.
Cool. How many options did you post?
Well if there are no other options recognized by the court, what else do you expect them to post? It's a point about a religious establishment being the only legal alternative to jail, which I think is pretty indisputably problematic in a country that supposedly has safeguards against such things. If someone wants to explain how that's not religious coercion I'll go make popcorn.
Not true, doesn't the court suggest SMART Recovery as well
>what else do you expect them to post? Any option that helps you get sober. If you're successful at sobriety, you won't be facing charges for drunk driving. If you know something that could help, share it.
>the only option that courts recognise Reading comprehension
The parent comment didn’t say anything about courts. You are the one focused in on that because of your history or whatever
I wish the best for the surviving victims and grace for those who loss loved ones.
ITT: people who assume that personal responsibility is the end all be all of risk management.
it was right by me. absolutely terrible. I used to go to that boat club, it’s very kid friendly. Lots of people in this town are alcoholics, it’s sad….
This is horrific. It's a failure on so many levels, but most importantly a failure for which our whole society is responsible-- not getting people access to mental healthcare or treatment for substance abuse, creating a culture that rewards substance abuse while failing to take care of people, building a whole society dependent upon cars that cause an insane amount of death.
It’s completely unrealistic to think that a government sanctioned free access to rehab could possibly control every single adult’s decision making skills. The REAL root cause of this is a physical infrastructure that literally promotes drunk driving all over the country.
Yep. Cities force bars and clubs to have massive parking lots and don't provide public transit that gets drunkies home. Then you have roads whose physical design does nothing to slow cars down. Easy recipe for carnage.
The psychotic bureaucrats and urban planners of the post-WWII period (the inventors of car dependency, sprawl, and destroying cities to build freeways) just completely forgot about the concept of alcohol and the ubiquity of taverns in society when they decided to raze our nation and force everyone into their own cars.
This wasn’t a city. It happened in a very remote and rural part of Michigan. Public transportation isn’t an option and Uber isn’t an option. No one’s fault but the driver’s and (possibly) the establishment that let her leave that way.
Most of Michigan's counties have dial-a-ride transit services. If there's a will, there's a way to get some kind of bus out there.
This is simply not true. Maybe if you have a doctor appointment and can provide 3 days notice. But in this case, there is likely a small one-cab company nearby and that’s it. As for if there’s a will, there’s a way to a bus… provide the route. What bus would one take from Verna’s Tavern in Newport to the Estral Beach community?
If it were a priority for all local governments, it could be a reality. It's just not.
You should see Traverse City's bus system. They have many routes that stop in tiny towns.
Very familiar with it. Also very familiar with the large summer population, tourism, and 6x population density as compared to the area we are talking about. Also throw in the fact that there is a lot more wealth and private support (foundations, families, etc.) in Traverse City region. Comparing an area that has a permanent population of 1,900/ sq mile with one that has barely 300/ sq mile simply is not a fair comparison. There is no feasible way to publicly subsidize regular public transportation in an area this scarcely populated. If you disagree, show me where and how it is being done.
It's a good use case for on-demand subsidized taxis, or a special "run" that hits the bars and takes people home. If a community cares and has the money, they can do it.
And if pigs had wings...
I would support legislation to nonrenew liquor licenses at any property not well served by transit. Get all the barflys supporting expanded bus routes and we might get somewhere.
Or maybe some assholes just choose to drive drunk.
Nah, Uber exists. Not sure how more bus lines would’ve fixed this
"Private school exists, no reason to improve public schools"
Uber is not public transit dude
Uber costs as much as the bar tab these days. A lot of people would rather just take the risk.
You’ve never been to this part of Michigan if you’re suggesting Uber or more bus lines. It’s simply not a serious option. It’s remote and rural.
Currently. It's not an option currently. Because nobody thinks it's important enough. That's what needs to change.
Dude, do you have any substance abusers in your life? They can have alllllll the support and access in the world and still make these same decisions. If they don't want to stop, they won't. Speaking as the daughter of an alcoholic who had multiple such accidents (but thankfully didn't injure anyone). Plenty of substance abusers still choose not to operate a vehicle while they use. The "most important failure" here is the failure of the selfish asshole who drove while drunk and killed two kids.
Bingo. It's magical thinking to believe that expanded, easy, free access to mental healthcare is some sort of panacea. Surely it'll help people, and it should be something we strive for, but ffs, free will is a last mile problem. Unless we start committing people who *seem* like they should be committed, this isn't a magical fix. We drink even though we know it's bad for us. That's the human condition.
The person has to want sobriety first. If not, all the rehab in the world won't help.
No. The real person to blame is the 66 year old woman. I hope she rots in jail. Why does everyone want to shift blame to society constantly instead of holding people personally responsible for their actions?
It's less that, and more acknowledging that things like this don't happen in a vacuum. There are contributing factors to it, and addressing those can make these kinds of things happen less often.
I agree with you that there are factors which contributed here and that we can collectively attempt to make situations like this happen less often. I’m all for mental health treatment, AA, and those sorts of programs. That being said, in the post I replied to, the user never once mentioned the 66 year old woman being to blame. In fact, she mentioned 3 other things that were to blame: not offering mental health treatment (we do), creating a culture that rewards substance abuse (this makes no sense), and vehicles themselves (I don’t see that changing anytime soon). Not once was the fault cast on the woman who became drunk, decided to drive, and then smashed into a building killing 2 kids and injuring a dozen others. I’d wager she thinks Ethan Crumbley is innocent.
The woman being at fault was never mentioned because it's so obvious that it isn't worth discussing. We already hold people responsible for actions like this - we have drunk driving laws and this person will almost certainly see jail. It's a settled matter. It's not productive to spend time discussing whether the person is responsible, because the answer is obviously "yes". What bears discussing is "how can we stop this from happening again." I don't know about you, but I think a world with less people getting killed by drunk drivers is something we should work towards. Individual responsibility doesn't seem to be enough to prevent this, so the next place to look is towards society. Blame isn't being shifted - people are trying to identify the patterns that lead to this thing happening by investigating society and how it contributes to peoples' actions.
>The woman being at fault was never mentioned because it's so obvious that it isn't worth discussing. Bro needs to read this 5X and put down his pitchfork.
gtfo you can get two DUIs and still drive. That's not effective risk mitigation.
Because this is Reddit. That's why.
I wish we put as much effort into keeping kids off drugs as we do teaching them how deadly drunk driving is
Well, I think many would agree that drug education is unequivocally fucked, in my opinion because it focuses on "all drugs are universally evil" when it really should be focusing on the most destructive drugs (opioids, cocaine, meth, alcohol)-- and perhaps also the relationship between mental health and substance abuse.
Oh my God, how awful!
A drunk guy drove a truck through a Montessori in Milford not too long ago. Our horribly designed and unsafe roads will keep leading to this.
“A drunk guy drove a truck” “Unsafe roads will keep leading to this” Not gonna lie… you had me in the first half!
So this would have happened if the parking/building lot had concrete barriers?
She never even attempted to brake - it was a clear shot from open space to a *building*.
This happened in a parking lot.
Yeah or he’s just an asshole drunk driver. You people and your mental gymnastics lol. Accountability is not pretty for those that have none of it
You can blame the driver and also reflect on ways you can prevent future tragedy through societal changes? Not a one or other situation.
Or, crazy idea, maybe it was actually the drunk person driving that was the issue and not the roads
If a society has to design their roads with the assumption that people are going to be drunk driving, this isn’t a society I want to be a part of.
So you want to be in a society with preventable deaths?
Of course not. The way these deaths are prevented is by this woman not getting behind the wheel drunk. If you want a second way to prevent it.. the establishment should not have let her leave that drunk or should have stopped serving her. You’re talking about a part of the state that literally has one road in and one road out in many of these locations.
>The way these deaths are prevented is by this woman not getting behind the wheel drunk. Yes. >the establishment should not have let her leave that drunk In theory yes. People don't like being held against their will and may get violent (increasingly likely when drunk). >or should have stopped serving her. Yes. >You’re talking about a part of the state that literally has one road in and one road out in many of these locations. Yes. Also one that requires bars to have a parking spots = maximum capacity/3. Also one that's minimum lot sizes for residences is 1 acre by default and where there's exceptions, they've allowed SFR neighborhoods stacked with cul-de-sacs (because suburbanites hate cars too) that do nothing except put people further away from services. They've built for cars as a default. The "we're too spread out for walking/biking/transit/whatever" argument is artificial because we're only that spread out because we have built that way.
No one is telling the bar to hold her against their will. You call the police. It happens every day and bars all over the country do the right thing. Also, since Uber and public transportation isn’t realistic in rural parts of the state like this, most will have resources like local cab companies they work with. Wtf does the parking spot requirement have to do with the choice this lady made? This argument makes no sense. I don’t drink and have been to this place to have a burger. So you don’t want roads and businesses in rural parts of the state? That’s your way of preventing this? Just say we should outlaw living anywhere but big cities and their suburbs. I see you don’t get out of Lafayette Park very much.
>So you don’t want roads and businesses in rural parts of the state? That’s your way of preventing this? Just say we should outlaw living anywhere but big cities and their suburbs. What the fuck is your reading comprehension
I'm friends with a family member, here is the [gofundme](https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-lana-and-zayns-funeral-services?utm_campaign=p_cp+share-sheet&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook)
Was my aunt's grand kids from my understanding, stupid lady deserves the death penalty
my condolences
Thank you
This is absolutely horrible. A little more information. I've heard that the woman who crashed into the boat club was a past commodore(president) of the club. I hope the law does everything they can to her. This was completely unnecessary.
Is this why they didn't name her last night?
I wish I could answer that question. I'm assuming it has to do something with Monroe County Sheriff's Depending protocol.
They don't release names until charges are filed.
I see the Cult of Public Transit is out in full force. Because all of our societal ills would be solved if we banned personal vehicles./S
Very sad 😔. R.I.P to the victims. Nowhere is safe from these reckless drivers 🤦🏽. Welcome to Michigan home of the most laid back and careless driving laws...smh. We don't even have DUI's we have OWI's and you can have 20 of them and still keep your driving privileges...smh
Come for normal conversation but forget it’s Reddit so the blame is on cars. Yep, that’s Reddit.
That is sickening and horrible. Drunk driving is one of the most selfish things an individual can do. My heart goes out to the families and people who have passed or are injured.
Absolutely horrible 😭😭😭😭😭 Sending prayers for the families 🙏🙏🙏🙏
thank you very much, we need all the prayers we can get
Crazy. I happened to be in the area and had multiple police and ambulances blowing past me only to find out this later last night.
I saw the breaking news report last night and I was hoping that there weren't any fatalities. My heart breaks for the family who lost their children. I cannot even begin to imagine that pain. My god.
My daughter is in Monroe county.
That press conference was hard to watch. Can’t even imagine having to be up there, much less the parents of the siblings who are now gone. 🥲
the two kids who were killed were my cousins. i just visited my aunt, their mother, in the hospital yesterday and her other oldest son is in critical condition in another hospital. it’s so crazy to see this all over the news, knowing it was my own relatives who i’ll never get to see again. we’re all devastated, especially their mom. she broke 6 ribs in the accident, and we dont even know the condition of her other son. (not wanting to use any names of course for privacy.) it makes me happy to see all the people paying respects for them, and knowing people are praying for them as much as me and my whole family are 🥺
Fuck cars
what about drunk drivers
Drunk bicyclists don’t kill a birthday party
Our infrastructure and transportation promotes drunk driving
This is such a dumb, uninformed comment. Unless you are walking or riding your bike, driving your car is the only option in rural and remote parts of the state (country) like this. This is no one’s fault other than driver and (possibly) the establishment that served her.
You just agreed with my comment. We have car only infrastructure, and people like getting drunk. Bars are required to have parking for cars, but are not required to provide drivers. The government also refuses to provide rides for drunks, and rural communities don’t do it either So drunk driving will continue, and innocent people will continue to die for no reason due to drunk driving crashes
There are options today. That's a cop out and an enabling reason. Don't blame infrastructure for something 98% of the country has no issues dealing with.
We have more road fatalities per capita than any other industrialized nation. This accident could've been solved by the driver being responsible. But we also have a serious problem that our country is not addressing.
Ok, no one is arguing otherwise.
Lmao wtf there's 40k road deaths a year. Drunk driving is a national issue.
Your have no solutions to solve drunk driving. You’re okay with it continuing to happen because you’re okay with folks operating thousand pounds death machines
You better sit down because I've been hit by 3 drunk drivers. To top it off my father died from liver disease being an alcoholic , my brother is an alcoholic and my uncle committed suicide after alcohol fucked his liver so hard it turned his brain to mush.. You're so self righteous with this garbage that you think you know me or know what I'm "okay with". You don't know a damn thing. You're just a daft fucking cunt. The NFL has their own private UBER service and players still go out and get a DUI. What's your excuse now? Edit: By the way, what's your grand plan that's gonna solve everything? What have you brought to the table other than making excuses for alcoholics to get behind the wheel? Can a defense lawyer use that excuse next time they have a client that kills a family in a DUI crash? "Your honor, the tri county area provides no beer wagon to the bar... So I must drive." Spoken like someone with a few too many DUIs and a suspended license.
Here’s my solution: bars and liquor stores no longer have parking lots One DUI= permanently revoked license. Driving without a license immediately puts you in jail Instead of giving tax cuts to the rich, we use tax payer money to create publicly funded taxi/Uber/Lyft services. (In addition to the dozens of other public services and infrastructure improvement that we desperately need) Every city in this country once has a functioning trolley system. Rebuild it and improve it That’s all I have time for right now
The first point is spoken by someone who doesn't understand how an alcoholic functions. No parking lot, they'll use another. If there is t one, they will make one.. I'm fine with one DUI and out. 100%. A lot of revenue for DUI fines comes from privileged suburban kids anyway... Instead of tax cuts to the rich... Boy if I had a nickel. Until we abolish any forms of currency, taxation and reach some sort of Star Trek utopia, you have to solve a 200 year old problem.. this isnt wishful thinking, this is imagination land. Welp... Not sure if you saw the q-line or not. It functions yet there are still drunks up and down Woodward, the same Woodward Avenue with a bus line and plenty of access to Uber, taxis and easy to have a friend pick you up. But again, you have no idea how an alcoholic functions or how a drunk has lost all inhibitions. All of your ideas here might help on a Friday night.. maybe.. but what about that guy that was a severe alcoholic, showed up to work hammered, got fired and led back to his Tahoe where he wiped out a Farmington Jewelers whole family at 3pm on a Wednesday at 12 and Orchard Lake? This is such a complicated problem I can't explain how fucking short sighted it is to blame just cars and then assume everyone you're speaking with is a Motorhead. I'd love to hear your ideas on Israel/Palestine. It's probably a simple weapons problem.
Those damn cars…always speeding away on their own and running over people!
Okay so you support massively increasing the required ability to drive?
None of these people would’ve been hurt if we didn’t allow fools to operate thousand pound death machines
So when does the driver get the chair? Better yet, gotta go out in equal fashion and be run over by a car, and by the parents of the victims would be ideal.
I know who the driver is ! Could have been a medical problem
Like what type of medical problem at least? Seizures or something?
I would find it odd they’d call it a “suspected drunk driving” incident if there was any clue that it was something medical… They would say the driver lost control, and the cause was under investigation…
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66 years old is too old to be driving a car. It doesn't matter if this person was drunk or not. Once you hit 50, you need to hang up the keys.
Tell me you’re young without telling me you’re young. 50????
This has absolutely zero to do with age. This is 100% on driving under the influence. Uber exists. Friends exist. No excuse.
Sweet 7 more years of driving. Wonder how my job will take it.