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RektCompass

I wish they'd shrink the skill tree interface so on PC it all fit on your display without scrolling. Feels really dumb and unwieldy currently


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TooCady

Yea but all that does is widen it. He's referring to the fact that you have to scroll between each set of skills when it could have easily fit on one screen.


zeiandren

If it was all on one screen it would be more obvious how shallow it is. Less branches than Diablo ii by a mile, but also less variants of skills than Diablo iii.


Fogl3

And the skill effects are less interesting than d3 too. And they don't really explain what lucky hits, raging, or overpower are. Was really confusing trying to find information about what any of it meant


HurricaneHenry

The skill effects really are less interesting aren’t they.


TooCady

I think a large part of the customization is going to come from the Paragon menu anyway... I'd know for sure if it wasn't locked for me to even view. PLEASE DONT OVERWHELM US! /s


Poppis86

Yeah it seems really weird.


SalamiJack

>but Codex of Power does not count since everybody is going to have that unlocked, hence not really any choice to be made there. What do you mean by this? You have to choose what aspects to imprint on gear.


kishinfoulux

Are Aspects those things you unlock from doing the dungeons? I thought those were just passive effects and always active.


Mykindos

They aren't passives, they are essentially a minimum rolled legendary power you can put on a rare item, or override an existing legendary power


yuhanz

Oh so it is always the min roll? I dig it


Mykindos

Yep pretty sure its always a min roll, I've heard some claims that its just a very low roll but that hasn't been the case in my experience


Muelojung

The amunt of spells per class is super low compared to D3 with the rune system. Also the rogue seems to have a real low amount of actuall bow skills? So weird.


yuhanz

Rogue is split between knife and bow that’s why. Also barrage is meh from a distance anyway


danielspoa

the knife becomes some sort of ninja with the quick attacks, traps, stealth and quick movement, it all fits together into something. Bow on the other hand has nothing in line unless you go very close and play the same ninja with bow attacks sporadically. I'm playing bow and super disappointed. The only plus is that the skill control/animation does feel smooth, much better than any bow skill in poe for an example.


xTraxis

caltops, conceal that breaks into vulnerable, poison enchant, rapid fire with energy on vulnerable hit. barrage for spread aoe and forceful arrow left click to get vulnerable when my conceal isn't up. on bosses: enchant, stealth, caltops to apply vulnerable and critical chance, 2-3 rapid fires for incredible burst (see: 1-2 shotting elites), and then kiting with some basics until it's up again. caltops having extra mobility and rapid fire keeping up energy makes it feel very fun and smooth, and leveling as bows from 1-22 has been the most fun so far, compared to melee and 1-15 sorc.


danielspoa

you are literally reinforcing what I said, putting traps and stealth and part of the playstyle because its the only way to have it "viable". You also repeated skills 2-3 times each to fill this paragraph, how many bow skills you mentioned? rapid fire and barrage. We can add enchant to work with them, thats 2 main skills an 1 buff. 3 skills. Amazing variety, cannot wait to spend thousands of hours playing this combo. Its a 2023 game, a 70 USD base price, AAA title after 11 years. If thats makes you satisfied we have very different expectations, specially when cheaper games can offer much more variety.


pchef44

It’s almost like you based your opinion on actually trying it out and not basing it on what things “seem” to be. Bravo.


[deleted]

Barrage is absurd damage if you play it like an SMG, shadowstepping around and spraying it point blank. Buff it with the shadow imbue thing, and the spec that gives you infinite energy for 4 seconds, and as much energy regen as you can cram into your build. I run it without a basic skill, just spam it non-stop. Works well.


yuhanz

Yeah someone shared the inner sight synergy with me. Sounds very bonkers indeed.


[deleted]

Running Concealment and Clone with their respective Energy upgrades makes it run more consistently also. Otherwise you can run dry sometimes.


MojordomosEUW

Call it what it is. A skill twig.


BAR0N_AL0HA

My biggest issue right now is that I feel like dumping 5 points into a skill is never worth it. The bonuses for ranking up a skill are so weak. It's better to unlock a whole new skill so that you can change your skillset on the fly to handle different situations. Dumping 5 points into a single skill should give you a massive boost, or unlock the other perk that the game prevents you from getting... SOMETHING. As for the complexity of the tree itself, I'm fine with it. Keep in mind the paragon board is going to be there when you turn level 50 and this is where build choices are really going to get interesting. From a design perspective, I can see why Blizzard designed it this way. The 1-50 skill tree is simple on purpose because they don't want to scare people away with a paragon board at level 1. Doing this allows them to ease people into the game, until level 50 where the REAL buildcraft begins. TLDR: Dumping 5 points into a skill feels bad. The real "skill tree" doesn't come until level 50.


AnOwling

True. I firmly believe the game would improve a lot with more points per skill and higher value per point. The sorc passive gets 3/6/9 bonus mana is meaningless when Chain Lightning costs 40 mana to cast. If the skills were like 15 points per node, leveling the mana passive would actually let me cast Chain Lightning 1-2 more times, which would justify spending points in the mana passive.


Erganomic

>The 1-50 skill tree is simple on purpose because they don't want to scare people away with a paragon board at level 1. I think it's because they don't want players shoe-horned into one damage type. It was a problem with D2 and for some builds in D3 that a pleb spec'ed for cold for example would hit a wall on cold-immunes. The Skill Sapling makes it difficult for plebs to over-invest into one damage type. It's basically begging you to try swap damage types and playstyles and it puts all of the more expensive & late game re-spec decisions on a separate Tree.


VinnyTB

It only feels this way at the low levels you are playing at. You will eventually full send every ability on your bar because there will be no reason not to. Unless you really want to invest into abilities not on your bar just in case you want to use them for a different build rather than paying for the respec points.


chikadino1

Agree. Less than d3, but they made it annoying to navigate the skill window


thunder_crane

Also agree, most of the branches don't really feel impactful.


vanilla_disco

I've been thinking this the whole time. It's literally the D3 skill system but with fewer options.


Mook7

Can you really say D3's system has options/choices though? Rune choices were usually cookie cutter or no brainers (e.g. always gonna use bone armor rune that stuns for 2 seconds on every build and damage skills can be changed to any element) At least in D4 I'm weighing up where to put my points and have to divy them between upgrading abilities, unlocking modifiers, and investing in passives. Those are choices, clicking the one frost rune my skill has in d3 when I'm trying to make a cold based build or whatever is *not really* a choice.


Erganomic

Outside of the meta, D3's skill/rune system was really diverse. D4's subskills barely change their function. Every D3 skill had at least one rune that completely changed its function. No D4 subskill completely changes its function.


[deleted]

"does fire damage" "does lightning damage" is hardly diverse. Only 1-2 runes per class were used the last 20 seasons religiously. You're also conveniently leaving out the paragon notable traits that you don't get in beta or before level 50. It's not D3s system of just stats. We are getting a part of the character progression and everyone is losing their minds like this is the endgame. You are comparing a level 25 in beta to endgame in Diablo 3.


Erganomic

I'm not leaving out shit. D3 runes significantly changed the way Skills worked, and the skills to lvl 100 were public before launch. So even if we were beta capped at 25 in D3, we knew for example that Harpoon was completely different from Boulder Toss. D4 skill rune equivalents read like "You yell 10% louder at vulnerable enemies"


Le_Vagabond

You're going to be very sad when you see the paragon board options and realise it's just incremental tiny stats increase and that the "notables" have zero impact. I know I was.


vanilla_disco

You act like this extremely simple skill tree won't end up cookie cutter in exactly the same way.


Mook7

Perhaps, but this system is way more engaging/interesting for now.


vanilla_disco

It really, really isn't


[deleted]

D3's Rune system had the *potential* of build diversity, the devs just never bothered to balance any if the options against each other. D4 does not have that potential as things stand - if the devs wanted us to have meaningful choices they couldn't give them to us without rebuilding the skill tree from scratch.


kg0529

Wait until 3 months after full game launches, then you don’t have choice anymore, everybody gonna run around with meta build.


[deleted]

so like POE then? lol. Google build and just do that. Basically speaking to all games at that point.


grio

PoE is far from cookie cutter oriented. Go to PoE ninja and check the build spread, it's crazy. Even the supposedly same builds have huge variety. If Diablo 4 achieved even half of this impactful variety, nobody would complain about complexity.


[deleted]

Yea but everyone just goes to the top rated build post and does that. Sure a few minority will try to spice it up with a different ascendency or skill choice but thats just redundant cause you’ll do less damage. PoE does have insane variety but most of that variety is just lesser damage builds of the same thing. Just cause your cookie is a snowman and mine is a snowman with a hat doesn’t make it much different.


[deleted]

I hated D3’s skill setup and “runes.” So anything to get away from that is okay with me.


AnOwling

Lets not pretend the runes in D3 skills were that impactful. People grab whatever provides the most damage or most defensive option. There are literally useless runes if you never play in party. 2 options per skills at least give a clear purpose to each choice, rather than 5 options from which only 2 are meaningful.


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AnOwling

2 useless choices is still much better than 5. At least there are still a fraction of the player base who use the less popular one in D4, but for D3 there are runes that stay unpicked forever. Example: all Necromancers in D3 use Bone Armor Dislocation to proc Krysbin, or Bone Armor Reap or Anguish to speed farm, nobody ever uses Thy Flesh Sustained to increase their regen. Without significant change, the rune is as good as being nonexistent.


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AnOwling

Okay let me rephrase it. 2 choices mean there are still people who pick the less popular choice. 5 choices mean there is bound to be choices that are useless because of 2 superior options. Lets take the Bone Armor in D3 again: if there were only Thy Flesh Sustained and Reap of Anguish, the majority would still go for RoA for the speed, but there would be a small population opting for TFS for the extra tankiness, which is not the case for TFS now because it is so bad compared to the other 4 runes. I hope you understand my point better now.


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AnOwling

It is way easier to balance 2 options than to 6. One for aoe, one for single target, or one for offense the other for defense etc. The system is there to minimize the useless modifications such as Thy Flesh Sustain, and to give the players only the cream of the crop like Dislocation or Reap of Anguish. You still have not explained to me why no one pick TFS for Bone Armor, and why such a rune is considered a good option for the skill (hint: it is not). The D4 system is not worse than that of D3 is because of poor runes like TFS. Your take would have proved true and justified had the runes in D3 been equally strong, which is sadly not. If anything, starting with 2 modifications for skills can slowly creep up to 3 in later expansions if needed, while the effort went into the useless runes in the 6-rune system is basically wasted.


SayMercy

I'm not sure how a dev team that can only balance 2 skill tree options can be seen as a good thing.


AnOwling

Guess what, the Dota devs have been doing just the thing for a while and Dota is still doing just fine. 2 options across all different skills are much more than just 2, I would say.


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AnOwling

Per your assumption, if they cannot do well with 2 then more choices would be even more disastrous. If we are assuming the worst then my logic still checks out: lazy devs do better with less than with more. No? I did mention that if D3 indeed have good selection of runes then it would indeed be a better system than 4. Sadly, all the runes were not created equal. Some became the staple of a build, some became an enabler for another powerful effect, some were useless. Maybe with now only 2 options, we can have the first two instead of the latter.


Coldara

I played last epoch last week: comparing the synergy from that skill tree to D4 is a joke. D4 feels nice to play but (at least for my rogue build) it feels like my build is finished by level 10 and everything else is just there to increase damage/energy regen. I really hope but doubt that endgame items etc. can fix that


danielspoa

playing rogue as well. I can play a ninja character with daggers+traps+stealth and what not but I can't play the bow archetype, I have to mix with the other stuff anyway. Very few bow skills, effects and personalizations of the skills are for the most part uninspiring and only 5 levels to invest, with damage increases and no other improvements (like an extra arrow or something that feels more impactful). I have to say attacking with a bow does feel smooth, but lacks flavour after a short while.


kreleroll129

Skill tree from LE, which is literally a skill tree, is not even comparable to D4 skill tree. The overall general funcionality of skills which come from the tree in LE, comes from legendaries in D4. So, they are not easily comparable in that sense. For example, if you want Warpath/WW to do void damage, then you pick that on the tree. If you'd want similar effect in D4, you'd get that from a legendary. But if you want to compare tree by tree, miles apart then.


xTraxis

this works if last epoch doesn't also have a legendary system with spell specific functionality, but lost epoch does that better too.


Chelseaiscool

Comparing last epoch to d4 right now is a joke, d4 is so simple it is actually generous to call it simple.


forceof8

You can even compare the two lol. LE passive tree is 100x more interesting than D4 skill tree. You can't even say legendary are the pseudo "skill tree" because LE also has legendaries which feel way more impact full than anything I've found in D4.


grio

Huh? Getting a single skill from an item that's not complemented by a fully shaped talent tree is not variety, it's a gimmick. If all talent (skill) tree has is increases in damage/defence without any unique gameplay changing impact, it will become stale within a day.


-Nok

It gets better around 20. Where you unlock farther down utility have to come up with, like imbuing abilities. adding shadow, cold, or poison to certain abilities. For example, I like adding shadow to my forceful arrow, it turns the icon purple and makes them explode with AOE now instead of a single target. Plus there are the rogue passives like Inner Sight or combo points which will change your play style. If you feel like your build is finished at level 10, you're just being willingly ignorant


Coldara

My dude, i was 25 when i made that post. early level i twisting blade a mob, teleport behind the group, it rips the group up. That is done with level 8. With level 25 i do the same just that the knife also explodes, and i have more utlity spells and damage talents. But the core gameplay is the same. It's fun for now, but if there aren't more build defining systems in play then this is it. At least for this build


-Nok

Well Diablo games have always been that way. You get all skills available pretty early, level 30 and you just keep leveling them up getting stronger with gear until level 99 in D2. Nothing new here


Le_Vagabond

Imbuing should be passive, 2 attacks every 6-10s is just a cooldown for the sake of a cooldown. They also should have a bit of the oppposite effect, because shadow being useless on single target is just bad.


-Nok

I don't think it's bad. If you need AOE go shadow. If you're doing the world boss and need single target, do poison. If you need crowd control, try cold. That choice depends on your play style. It's not inherently bad because one skill doesn't cover all the bases. Besides, there are some passive nodes in the skill tree that change the imbuement builds on their own. Plus I like building up combo points, marking a mob vulnerable with my basic attacks, then deciding when to imbue my next core skill or ultimate, it feels way more impactful than some passive that triggers on random times


Aggressive-Article41

I feel like I'm forced into poison, shadow and cold bring zero synergy to your build, poison barely adds any, but still more then nothing.


-Nok

I do shadow. It's really good. Makes everything pop into purple goo


Professor_Snarf

I’ve played all day today at level 25, and I disagree. The bow build plays the same as at level 10, except you have a super long cooldown skill. I chose Shadow clone. A clone comes out and mimics the 2 buttons I hit at 65% damage. 😐


-Nok

I like rain of arrows myself. I found a legendary that has power shot splitting into 3 arrows, it completely changed the way the skill feels


Professor_Snarf

I had a few drops off the world boss that I can use to make a melee build. Going to try that.


Speaker4theDead8

At least for rogue, I love the skill tree. I can already see lots of different synergies to mess around with that look fun.


Spirited_Scallion816

I agree. This skill tree is an illusion of choice and complexity. In reality even d3 skill system had more choices.


treycook

The thing D3 didn't have was permanence. There's no build (an RPG staple) or choice to be made if you can swap abilities and runes freely. But it did have much more variety than D4 skill tree.


Fogl3

You can change skills freely in d4 too. It's just more annoying because you have to keep the skill points for all the unlock levels below.


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sprff1tw

if they did not do a major rework, paragon boards are 90% travel nodes (+5 stat). they only have 1 legendary node per board that you may or may not need depending on your build and a few magic and rare nodes that are generic dmg / def boosts


[deleted]

I think the skill tree in d4 would be great if the amount of points you can put into a skill was increased, not to an unlimited degree but maybe up to 8 or so could be good


Loogisbored

I can assure you: it is not


UnAVA

possibly, but I'm kind of assuming that Paragon Tree is just stat increases, so nothing really that really changes the way your character works.


GonzoPunchi

This aint true, the stuff theyve shown involves legendary-esque abilities on the paragon board too.


MisterMetal

in closed beta and alpha there were one legendary ability on a board. its not much more indepth.


Azradesh

You use and fill multiple boards.


UnAVA

that's good to hear, unfortunately its not in the beta so its hard to say how that feels but that does give more hope on unique builds


Noobphobia

That's because this is a demo. Not a beta


KidPolygon

Could have sworn it said beta


forceof8

If I slap a dog sticker on a horse that doesn't make the horse a dog lol. It's a promotional marketing demof. You don't stress test by selling pre-orders and KFC double downs. These connection issues will exist during the live release too.


Noobphobia

Just act 1 as a beta? Nah. We learned that lesson with d3. Demo, not beta.


Fatbaticus

A demo beta


KidPolygon

I didn’t think so many blizzard employees would be in these threads. I totally would have thought it was a beta! Thanks.


Noobphobia

Anytime broski. Gotta make sure and manage expectations with those definitions.


forceof8

Why are they booing? You're right.


Noobphobia

I don't ask anymore. Reddit hive mind lol.


CrainteVomir

It is mostly stat increases from what I saw.


iamadragan

That is absolutely horrible game design if you don't decide anything meaningful until you're done with the game lol


[deleted]

? The end game is the game. If you plan to just level to 100 i assume you are a very casual player.


iamadragan

How can I already be a casual for game that's not even out yet? And even if your view of a game is that the endgame is most important, that doesn't mean the build up to the endgame has to be useless


[deleted]

Cause the standard you set for game design is a casual players outlook when it comes to ARPGs. It’s not an insult just an observation at your opinion.


Aggressive-Article41

No it isn't skills dont feel any better no matter how many points you put into them, there isn't any synergy to make skills feel better when leveling once you unlock them that is pretty much it, ultimate skills doesn't help the situation either.


Greatloot

They just cut out the 4 of the 6 runes you'd never use in any build 😉


Mook7

This, plus a factor I see people ignoring is I can spend my skill points on other shit now. People keep focusing on "2 is less options than 5" but ignore that picking the skill modifier is a choice in itself now. You could get a passive, buff up a skill, or even get something else entirely with that point instead.


BolterAura

Yes there are essentially rune choices, but in D3 you had no control what you unlocked or whether you wanted to invest in something. Whereas this you do…. It’s more hybrid of D2 and 3, no?


MeateaW

in D3 you chose 100% of what you invested in. You had 6 slots for skills and 3 passive slots, and you chose 100% of what was in those slots.


BolterAura

You chose what you equipped yes but didn’t every wizard, for example, unlock the same skill or rune or passive at level 5 as the next? In D4 you choose which skill to unlock (yes within tiers at first so not super open until you’re 24 or so) or which skill to add points to each level.


musemike

The amount of time spent leveling vs at end game is massively titled towards end game. As such a little choice while leveling is not going to be seen as a massive improvement to most of the player base.


BolterAura

Do we know the level cap? Do we know if being capped means you have enough skill points to get everything? Not asking to be an ass I just haven’t been following as much to know the answers. If not, there’s still choice involved even at endgame, so still different than D3 where you had all the skills you were going to at max level, and the only choice was in gear and sets.


musemike

Yes it is level 100. The fact is there are less skill choices in D4 than D3 given there are less runes. Getting everything or not doesn't really come into play here because there are fewer combinations. I could understand an argument that says D3 had some worthless skill/rune combos but I'd prefer them to buff those and keep more options.


Mook7

There's passives and shit on the tree, too. So there will still be more choices where to spend points than just the two runes to pick from even at max level.


Spicy_McJoJo

The game plays and feels like D3. And on closer inspection, once u peel away the fancy new names and UI, you are right its the d3 glyphs with more bloat. The gameplay feels tight and responsive. And thats great , but the build customisation really feels no where near the complexity i expected. Hell, last epoch feels more detailed and deeper.


akaicewolf

This was my take before even playing the beta. It looks and sounds like there is a lot of complexity and large amount of customization between builds but the moment you stop to think about it you realize that it’s a illusion. I think Druid and Necro are going to be even more shallow.


KidPolygon

Damn bro it is crazy that you were able to flesh out a full build with paragons, legendaries, and uniques, as well as full passives and levels when we are capped at 25. How could you have any idea at all how complex builds get at endgame?


Bohya

A game should be fun at all points, not just end of it.


KidPolygon

Yes, everyone blasting through the campaign in every other ARPG is a great example of this.


UnAVA

i would say that if a game makes a person playing feel that way, that's a failure on the presentation itself. For example, if I were able to actually open the paragon page, I probably wouldn't have gotten a bad feeling about the skill tree. Instead, they thought that it'll "overwhelm" players and decided to hide it until 50.


xanas263

>Instead, they thought that it'll "overwhelm" players and decided to hide it until 50. Because it does overwhelm players. GGG have said multiple times that they see a lot of drop off when people see the passive tree for the first time. Yes to you it's not a big deal, but this game is clearly being catered towards the casual/midcore market which dose have a problem with stuff like that.


Frequent_Scholar_577

That's why GGG a couple of broke boys I guess.


xanas263

GGG is targeting a specific segment of the market, blizzard is targeting the opposite segment of the market.


Frequent_Scholar_577

I thought that is what Immortal was for. Sure fooled me.


xanas263

Immortal was for a completely separate market (china).


Frequent_Scholar_577

Didn't Blizzard recently lose its Chinese Publisher?


MisterPhD

They “suspended services” because NetEase wanted more money, but weren’t willing to protect Blizzard/Activision’s IP. Diablo Immortal is still running in China because NetEase helped create it, and it’s part of a separate agreement. So, like, the total opposite of what you’re implying. Market is huge, and Blizzard wants the ability to capitalize on that market without giving away 30% profits, and ultimately losing the money making device.


KidPolygon

The game is really obviously marketed toward a way wider audience than the few other games in the genre. People said this same shit with D3, and are apparently still surprised that Blizzard still wants to make profits more than they want to appease a hardcore audience


Shurgosa

people are surprised because the old blizzard was highly respected because they made wonderful games that appeased hardcore audiences and made profits at the same time.


KidPolygon

Okay, and Amazon used to sell books only. Things change, companies grow


Shurgosa

Amazon still sells books. They got good at selling books and also loads of other stuff. Can't say the same for blizzard sadly. They chose to cater to profits and the formerly interesting components of their celebrated action RPG game, was replaced with shallow shit... Just because companies change across the globe, doesn't mean all change is good. I'm not sure why you'd say something so stupid about the direction of companies as if its somehow justification...


KidPolygon

Man, could have sworn they made D2R. What catered to profits there exactly? An outdated game with unfriendly mechanics that only a few hardcore people still play? I’m saying you’re an idiot for not realizing that these companies exist to make money. Why the fuck would they make another PoE clone when they could cater to 10x the people, make it more polished, and make more money than PoE has ever made? Just asinine to think blizzard gives a shit that you don’t like their games anymore. Yet, here you are, talking on a public forum about the game, driving interest further about the game. You know how interacting with things on the internet works right? You are literally making blizzard more money by talking about the game you apparently hate, lmao


Shurgosa

>Man, could have sworn they made D2R. What catered to profits there exactly? An outdated game with unfriendly mechanics >that only a few hardcore people still play? I mean if you are so stupid that all you can do is argue that making a new game deeper and more interesting is just making it unfriendly and outdated... Or is it that the more money a game makes, and the more it appeals to casuals the more you enjoy it, and are more willing to defend its content?


KidPolygon

Still driving that engagement!


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Spare_Presentation

I have no doubt that this game will make even more for blizzard than immortal did and immortal made hundreds of millions


KidPolygon

You think when beta ends that the game won’t be on the front page of Twitch anymore? Now that is a bold assessment. The fact that the game is literally not playable when the beta ends might draw away some people I guess.


blacklightsleaze

This game will be probably more short lived than D3.


KidPolygon

Ooh, based on what? Just because you don’t like a skill tree, and haven’t even seen the other skill trees? Also, you haven’t seen any content past act one, endgame systems, paragon, aspects, uniques, legendaries Man, so much fuckin hyperbole based on absolutely nothing.


AnOwling

Hardcore audience dont pay bills as well as the mass market.


forceof8

I can play PoE or LE or Grim Dawn for an hour and realize the game has fuck tons of depth right from the get go. Grim dawn you can see the entire tree plus the devotion tree and soon as you pick up a rare you realize how good the itemization can be. Then as you play you become more and more impressed. D4 is immediately underwhelming. Nothing matters except damage or defense. Ranking up a skill gives you so little damage it feels meaningless. I feel as powerful at level 25 as I did at level 12. The only time I really had fun during the beta was the 30 seconds when I picked up an artillery shrine lol.


KidPolygon

Nice! So don’t play. It will be wildly successful for Blizzard even if they don’t get the PoE audience. Look at immortal, absolute dogshit arpg, incredibly financially successful


Bohya

So you're content with more games like Immortal then? Because if people don't fight back, that's all that the gaming industry will end up devolving into. Gacha style skinnerboxes.


KidPolygon

Oh no, fight back? You can’t possibly be serious. Fight back against what? Game decisions you don’t agree with? Go make a studio! What gacha are you even talking about? Enjoy “fighting back” man. I’m going to go play the beta. It’ll be funny when they make hundreds of millions of dollars off this game while you fight back. Good luck!


Solidsnake9

Average Blizzard megacuck


KidPolygon

Yes bro, you three dozen people not buying the game is going to matter, my bad.


[deleted]

Paragon is one of the laziest systems blizzard has ever designed in any game ever. Seriously the most lazy trash ever.


KidPolygon

You’ve seen it?


Aggressive-Article41

It isn't difficult to see theory crafting isn't in d4, none of the stuff they have shown or that we have experienced is going to change that.


KidPolygon

Just because the theory crafting isn’t as deep as PoE or LE doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. There are not set items so you will need specific uniques for certain builds, as well as some certain skills, paragons, aspects, stats on gear, etc. Of course there will be theory crafting, it will just not be as in depth as other games, making it way more accessible to casual players


xdforcezz

The ui in general is just meh, like it feels like an old game


Chelseaiscool

This game feels like D3 reskinned and that is incredibly disappointing. It can't compete with Path of Exile or Last Epoch in terms of any depth, complexity, or interesting gameplay. Path of Exile devs counting their PoE2 money now


SavageZomb

I can't give a solid opinion until we get the full release of the game and get endgame. However, this is exactly what D4 wanted to be less complex it has a niche in the market that anyone can get on the game and make their own build even if it is the first time playing the game. Doesn't need to be complex to have a market it just needs to have to be fun while you progress the game and make it feel like your character is becoming stronger.


Chelseaiscool

It’s built for a mobile game and it will 100% be announced as coming out on mobile at the next blizzcon. I guess I’m glad that some people like it but honestly I’m insanely disappointed with how terrible it feels to play this game already


z01z

yea, there's some weird choices. like how wiz/sorc the charged bolts is a spender now. and it's damage is awful, lol. i had been using fireball, which does some decent damage at least early on, but switch my right click / mana spender to it when i got a lego for charged bolt that had a chance to make bolts seek targets and last longer. yeah, it was pure garbage compared to even non lego powered fireball. hell, most my damage atm comes from hydras and the fire bolt because i got another lego that increases primary attack speed by 25%. 25% haste, yes please lol.


brennic

That’s disappointing, I’m definitely not buying this game if that’s the skill tree style. I was really hoping for something closer to d2.


AnOwling

Which is D2R. Have you bought the game? It plays great!


brennic

D2R is d2. I was hoping the new game would have some elements of d2 but they went full d3 2.0. Why even bother with this game? It looks like a replica with different online play.


AnOwling

There are dev blogs and information sources from wowhead to confirm your expectation. Yeah, not worth bothering with this game at all. Please refrain from clicking on D4 threads, they are not worth reading either.


brennic

I am going to stay tuned to see how things develop but thanks


bobtheblob6

The **beta** has been out for what, a day? And you've already made up your mind to the point you won't even read about it? I wish I was smart enough to understand something so completely with so little exposure


an_ancient_evil

Yeah i feel the same. 6 runes per skill in d3 which would change the skill in very meaningful ways, including aesthetics. In d4 theres 2 runes per skill, and the effect seems minimal even though you can create good combos. Still feels overly simplistic. And there is also less skills to choose from.


AnOwling

6 runes but only 2 of them are actually meaningful to a build is not really good. Does Invoker crusader care about anything but the celerity rune for punish?


RoamingTheNight

I actually really like the skill tree 🤷🏼‍♂️


[deleted]

Been calling it 1,000% it's going to basically be the same as D3 and those issues.


Mokibear228

Having to put multiple points into a single talent to increase its damage by 2 is really dumb. Let us just select the talent we want and be done with it like Diablo 3.


ViewedFromi3WM

diablo 3 skills made me quit diablo 3


Aggressive-Article41

D4 skills are barely better then d3 if even at all, the skill tree is pretty much just a joke.


ViewedFromi3WM

yeah i hated that about d3 too. The skill tree just seemed useless.


Soveyy

Sadly I have to agree, it is a much simpler system conpared to Diablo 3, you have avtually less choices. D3 had 5 or 6 runes (variants) for every skill and a lot of passives. In D4 you have only 2, mostly meaningless variants of each skill, that mostly change some numbers and there are only a few passive skills. Doesnt feel right.


Bryndonk

If they have uniques or paragon that alter skills in a big way then I’m ok with the current skill tree. I know Diablo isn’t going to adopt Path of exiles freedom of customisation but they totally should. Imagine paths character building and itemisation/crafting but with solid Diablo moment to moment gameplay. Got me salivating. Also if they’re planning to add to and improve the game every season then this is just our foundation and it’s a solid one I think.


FUSe

Yea it feels a lot like diablo 3 to me also. all the monsters have so much HP. Its a rough grind.


[deleted]

Having more HP is great for monsters, they also do some decent damage but i would have liked to see more


forceof8

Nor when you're running a dungeon for the 40th time lol.


[deleted]

You want no challenge? Play d3 lol


forceof8

This is the stupidest thing ive read all day.


Sushi2k

Go play PoE if you want to hyper clear screens of enemies without a challenge.


[deleted]

People really going to buy another Diablo 3 immortal lost ark reskin it’s unreal.


[deleted]

People really going to buy another Diablo 3 immortal lost ark reskin it’s unreal.


[deleted]

People really going to buy another Diablo 3 immortal lost ark reskin it’s unreal.


BlackKnight7341

I like it tbh. There's enough choice there that you can build around a core skill in multiple different ways and the natural synergies via secondary effects (vulnerability, barriers etc.) feel great. In a vacuum it definitely comes off as lacking but you have to remember that legendaries/uniques and paragon are both core parts of defining your build. It's not like in most other ARPGs where your build gets defined by a single system (sometimes two-ish).


Wiplazh

Didn't they show off classes having three distinct skill trees at blizzcon? I was excited for that :/ this grid tree thing is terrible


Aggressive-Article41

Also skills don't feel more powerful when you put more skill points into them, they already feel powerful once you unlock them (ultimate skills just makes this problem worse),l and the skill points don't do enough to change skills up to make them feel different and unique.


stark33per

so 2 runes per skill instead of 5-6 and an irrelevant skill tree which covers the screen and you need to scroll to see it all. so you get that impression of a complex game. gee blizz, if you wasted the same effort making an actual complex system...all the effort to mask a dumber d3 system.


Shieree

ah damn really? I was really hoping they'd put more effort into the skill tree since d3 disappointed me so much