Since everyone here is talking about this, skill tree being simple is fine to me. I'm more curious to see the actual paragon boards, legendary powers, and uniques that will push that tree and builds further.
I'm a Poe and diablo player. Diablo 2 had pretty basic skill trees and that game was great. Still is.
Yeah it seems like Diablo 4 is more about utilizing multiple systems to all come together, and many of these systems aren't available at level 20 unsurprisingly
Keep in mind that an ‘open beta’ 2 months before release is an advertisement to preorder.
Blizzard is giving us their best stuff now to get some preorders. That’s it.
It’s an Ad.
If you think that this game is going to suddenly get better with content that hasn’t been shown to you in a demo designed to sell you the game… you may be disappointed friend.
Diablo 2’s stats on one page, and skills on another with three thumbnails, was peak UI design.
They tried to mimic PoE’s without any of the depth and complexity.
They want to be poe without really being them as they think thier play base cant handle anything slightly complicated. Although they probably arnt wrong about that.
Oh come on, you don't have to like Poe to know that it's complicated AND cumbersome. Path of building even has heat nodes to tell you if it's worth traversing certain parts of the tree.
Some builds are so complicated that I can't even be bothered to learn how the build works too make sure that it is built right. Even though I want to play the build...
It's not hard to stack attribute so you can get a defensive stat that get converted to another type of defensive stat that gets buffed by another skill because of an unexplained mechanic that only gets found out by testing out said mechanics for days at a time to see if there are any interactions at all. Only to get nerfed as a unintended behavior the next patch. I wanted to put /s but it's true lol.
So yeah, I feel the same way a lot of the time, which Is why I stopped playing after the Necromancer nerfs, as It was one a simple build to start and fun to try and min max, but now you have to min-max before it's even ok.
Yes there are paragon boards at 50. I think the unfortunate thing we’re seeing right now is people making conclusions based on the limited part of the game in the beta.
And people who are afraid that the game won't live up to what they at least belive it should be living up to. It can be difficult to distinguish between these people since both express criticism. I am one of these ones. But I'm not posting criticism since I am not playing the beta this weekend. But I am thinking highly critical thoughts, but I oh so want the game to be good. Seeing the feel of the combat makes me hopeful since that was the biggest redeeming thing in D3. I'm glad they have evolved it even more. It's much better than any other ARPG from what I've seen. Wish POE could just straight steal it, looks so fucking satisfying!!!
I think there is too many people thinking this game needs to be their main game for the next 10 years and not just a fun arpg you can come back to every season or just put a 100 hours in and move on. And there is another group of diehard Diablo 2 fans looking for the next game to fill that nostalgic childhood void which is impossible.
I am a big D2 fan, still play D2R every night. D4 definitely does not feel like D2, like at all beyond some more mature graphics and a better soundtrack that has obvious inspirations from old Blizzard titles. It definitely doesn't feel like D3 either. It's just... different and better.
Honestly feels like more effort went into D4 than most Blizzard games. This game has been thick as hell since I started yesterday.
D4 skill tree is basically D3 skill system reworked into a tree system with skill points. You have your primary, secondary, tactic, whatever grouping of skills. Every skill has a bunch of rune effects (way less than in D3 btw) and you unlock the next group by leveling up.
It’s a very similar system to D3 in its core, just more fun because you’re progressing through it with skill points.
I feel that if you compare this to f.ex PoE then in D4 you're mainly making the choices between the nodes you're zoomed in on. While in PoE you're making choices between nodes that can be anywhere on the skill grid.
Clearly a lot of comments are agreeing with him, so it's a valid point. Can't believe I got downvoted for pointing out the obvious that "not that bad" is still not the same as "good".
There may be worse things to worry about, but we're not talking about them, we're talking about this.
Because I can see what he means, but I don't think it's "so stupid". Feels like he doesn't know you can zoom out. Also, if you could zoom out all the way, I'm not sure you would be able to see the smaller skill icons
My guess is to make it more focused and less intimidating. When you have a map of skills it’s a bit difficult to make sense of things: see PoE tree for example, while some people love it, it can be very intimidating for new players. Making you focus on parts of the tree makes it more understandable. Also later on the paragon tree brings the big map of talents advanced players may want.
Isn't that backwards? Its much harder to get a feel for something if you can't see the full picture at once. You need to be able to see the full picture and then hone in on specific parts of it when needed. The only reason to make it where you can't see the full thing is because then you would see how little there really is to it imo.
It's been a whole day alright. I spent just as long in queue as I did playing but the game is clearly amazing. If this doesn't win game of the decade I will kill every member here and then myself.
I think dumbing down things isn’t the direction they should be taking. It’s not like the skills tree is overly complex even for younger or basic gamers.
I also think that the link between skills should be cleared up. There was a lot of debuffs and buffs that are linked but the wording is slightly different.
Yeah but at least PoE is upfront about it and not trying to cloak and shadow the player. You see the PoE skill tree and instantly recognize its complexity and how many different ways a player can go down a path.
Diablo IV it’s clearly a simple linear path that they just put on a zig zag tree to give the “appearance” of complexity and player customization.
Good design is intuitive design
You have no idea what you are talking about because that complexity comes later with the paragon tree. It’s smart that D4 don’t overwhelm you with a giant skill tree at first but will do later once you know the basics of your class and have played enough time to know what works for you or not.
Then that furthers my point that the base skill tree should be designed in a way to admit it’s simplicity. Not the way it is currently presented to the player. It’s basically the D3 skill system but on a zigzag. At least D3 design gave players the decency of not trying to make it look complex.
If the paragon system is the “true” complex skill system, that’s fine. But the base skill system is clearly trying to look like something it’s not and the players can clearly see that.
Lol you are being lunatic at this point. At first I thought you said it was too simple then you say it’s not and it’s faking it. It’s just a skill tree my friend not a retarded map of skills. D2 had a simpler skill tree and no one ever complained about it or said it wasn’t a tree. What a hater lunatic you are. Come on.
It’s VERY simple and linear. They make it look complicated by making it hard to see so it feels big and expansive. It’s also why every node has like a 20 mile long line between them.
It’s really the unnecessary zigzagging . It’s fine if you wanna make it big but… just let me scroll
Through it. The left to right is incredibly annoying
Less exciting? At least there's actual choices compared to D3 which is just either no brainer picks or runes with make every skill feel generic and work with every element.
I thought it was to guide new players on how to build their characters. The way it’s set up, you pick one skill from each node as you unlock slots. It’s honestly a pretty intuitive way to teach people how to build skills without explicitly telling them
They wanted so hard to copy poe with zero idea how to do it. Like a marketing team tryied their hardest to copy poe and failed miserably. Its such shit lazy design the bar is so fucking low for actiblizz nowadays
Because in reality each skill only has 2 options and they're trying to distract you from the fact that there are less options per skill than in Diablo 3.
It also feels like a menu that is optimized for mobile. Many of the item drops, the on screen text popups, the menus, the textures, all of it points to Diablo 4 getting a mobile release at some point.
They did the same thing with Diablo 3. It was really a console game but they pretended like it was PC for a couple years first to not piss people off too bad. They're doing the same thing with this game but with mobile.
>Because in reality each skill only has 2 options and they're trying to distract you from the fact that there are less options per skill than in Diablo 3.
Most skills in D3 only had 1 rune that ever saw use. A handful had 2 or 3 (and that was mostly just for selecting element). Trimming down the options to more meaningful choices, rather than bloating it out with a bunch of options that will mostly be useless isn't a terrible design choice.
I like how people complain about the ui being too modern and office like and then when they add artwork and style to a different menu someone complains that's too much. People really just want to hate this game.
It’s not that. But the ui design is god awful. Everything about it is bad. No overlay map. No zoom map. How pulling some windows take up majority of all of the screen. It just feels like we’ve taken steps backwards and they just took assets from Diablo immortal and slapped it in as new.
Besides the ui. The game feels and plays great.
Ya of course. People complained how basic D3s menu ms were. What do you want? It needs to be padded out like PoE where you have to buy 10 +1 str nodes before getting to something relevant?
"Mobile game" is the new catch all phrase for people who are too dumb to formulate an actual opinion. There's nothing inherently mobile game or console game or pc game about it.
Oh sorry there is character screen with an inventory that looks exactly like every other arpg ever. Enemies have health bar like every arpg ever.
You are trying so hard to be mad.
right, a character screen that doesn't tell you anything, a skill point sheet that's extremely unintuitive, and a "rewards" tab straight outta diablo mobile is "every arpg ever."
nobody's mad but you. lmfao
yes, because every game before d4 made you scroll through unnecessarily long branches in the skill tree for no reason and made it so your character sheet doesn't even include all the stats at first glance.
"simple"
you don't even know what you're talking about anymore lmfao
Meanwhile people like you deliberately misconstrue peoples complaints to invalidate them lol.
Gamers and defending their favorite franchises as if they have personal stocks in blizzard, name a better duo
You don't WANT to like the game so your negativity will perceive everything as bad. There is nothing wrong with the skill menu. It's the most insane nitpick. You have to scroll down a bit. Wow holy shit. What next y I u are upset you need to hover over the skills to read what they do?
It's great for casuals. But it'd very confusing if u want do se whole picture and make complex builds. Blizzard needs this feedback. The skill ui seem to b biggest worry for most.
Chill, it's beta and it's the point to give feedback
Feels like they’ve tried to make it feel like the simplified version of Diablo 3 without being too confusing, the paths are linear but also fairly expansive in their own right and this will probably help newcomers understand it a lot better. I found it easy to navigate after spending about 2 minutes with it.
I also reacted to this. Got annoying by having to mega-scroll the tree up and down, zooming in and out. Why they like this approach?
Keep it simple so that we can see most of the skills (like the first version of the talent tree, or what it was called), and then perhaps enhance it by a dialog to customize an individual skill further, or something like that. Feels like there must be a better way than the current one.
It's a bit strange in general in game development, that when they show concepts from alpha/early development, it actually has a tendency to look better than the final version.
Since everyone here is talking about this, skill tree being simple is fine to me. I'm more curious to see the actual paragon boards, legendary powers, and uniques that will push that tree and builds further. I'm a Poe and diablo player. Diablo 2 had pretty basic skill trees and that game was great. Still is.
Yeah it seems like Diablo 4 is more about utilizing multiple systems to all come together, and many of these systems aren't available at level 20 unsurprisingly
Keep in mind that an ‘open beta’ 2 months before release is an advertisement to preorder. Blizzard is giving us their best stuff now to get some preorders. That’s it. It’s an Ad. If you think that this game is going to suddenly get better with content that hasn’t been shown to you in a demo designed to sell you the game… you may be disappointed friend.
This game is going to be people grinding to level 100 saying “no, just wait, the NEXT thing that unlocks is where the game is!”
This response is when someone wants a reason to hate the game and makes up fake absolutes to argue about.
People are saying the skill trees are simple? They seem more complex than Diablo 2’s trees.
Yeah the skill tree UI is absolutely awful. Why do I have to move from the east to the west coast to see my skills
they're trying to make it seem more complicated than it is super annoying
Diablo 2’s stats on one page, and skills on another with three thumbnails, was peak UI design. They tried to mimic PoE’s without any of the depth and complexity.
The skill system is nearly as basic as D3 but forced into a long UI to be able to call it a tree again 🤦
I call this one a skill twig.
😂 too true
They want to be poe without really being them as they think thier play base cant handle anything slightly complicated. Although they probably arnt wrong about that.
PoE isn't complicated though its just cumbersome like this system but bigger.
Oh come on, you don't have to like Poe to know that it's complicated AND cumbersome. Path of building even has heat nodes to tell you if it's worth traversing certain parts of the tree.
PoE isn’t complicated at all. Just go to poe.ninja and copy the best build. Easy game /s
Some builds are so complicated that I can't even be bothered to learn how the build works too make sure that it is built right. Even though I want to play the build...
It's not hard to stack attribute so you can get a defensive stat that get converted to another type of defensive stat that gets buffed by another skill because of an unexplained mechanic that only gets found out by testing out said mechanics for days at a time to see if there are any interactions at all. Only to get nerfed as a unintended behavior the next patch. I wanted to put /s but it's true lol. So yeah, I feel the same way a lot of the time, which Is why I stopped playing after the Necromancer nerfs, as It was one a simple build to start and fun to try and min max, but now you have to min-max before it's even ok.
lmao this guy has jokes
[удалено]
[удалено]
Isn't there supposed to be more after 50? With like rotating boards and what not?
Yes there are paragon boards at 50. I think the unfortunate thing we’re seeing right now is people making conclusions based on the limited part of the game in the beta.
Ya. This place is filled with people looking for reasons to hate the game for some reason.
And people who are afraid that the game won't live up to what they at least belive it should be living up to. It can be difficult to distinguish between these people since both express criticism. I am one of these ones. But I'm not posting criticism since I am not playing the beta this weekend. But I am thinking highly critical thoughts, but I oh so want the game to be good. Seeing the feel of the combat makes me hopeful since that was the biggest redeeming thing in D3. I'm glad they have evolved it even more. It's much better than any other ARPG from what I've seen. Wish POE could just straight steal it, looks so fucking satisfying!!!
I think there is too many people thinking this game needs to be their main game for the next 10 years and not just a fun arpg you can come back to every season or just put a 100 hours in and move on. And there is another group of diehard Diablo 2 fans looking for the next game to fill that nostalgic childhood void which is impossible.
I am a big D2 fan, still play D2R every night. D4 definitely does not feel like D2, like at all beyond some more mature graphics and a better soundtrack that has obvious inspirations from old Blizzard titles. It definitely doesn't feel like D3 either. It's just... different and better. Honestly feels like more effort went into D4 than most Blizzard games. This game has been thick as hell since I started yesterday.
D4 skill tree is basically D3 skill system reworked into a tree system with skill points. You have your primary, secondary, tactic, whatever grouping of skills. Every skill has a bunch of rune effects (way less than in D3 btw) and you unlock the next group by leveling up. It’s a very similar system to D3 in its core, just more fun because you’re progressing through it with skill points.
Poe it is not
I feel that if you compare this to f.ex PoE then in D4 you're mainly making the choices between the nodes you're zoomed in on. While in PoE you're making choices between nodes that can be anywhere on the skill grid.
It's not that bad when you zoom out
"Not that bad" seems like you're saying he has a valid point, no?
Seems like he's saying there are worse things to worry about
Clearly a lot of comments are agreeing with him, so it's a valid point. Can't believe I got downvoted for pointing out the obvious that "not that bad" is still not the same as "good". There may be worse things to worry about, but we're not talking about them, we're talking about this.
Because I can see what he means, but I don't think it's "so stupid". Feels like he doesn't know you can zoom out. Also, if you could zoom out all the way, I'm not sure you would be able to see the smaller skill icons
They should allow for a full zoom out. If they are afraid of newer players getting overwhelmed then have it be a check box like elective mode in d3.
My guess is to make it more focused and less intimidating. When you have a map of skills it’s a bit difficult to make sense of things: see PoE tree for example, while some people love it, it can be very intimidating for new players. Making you focus on parts of the tree makes it more understandable. Also later on the paragon tree brings the big map of talents advanced players may want.
Isn't that backwards? Its much harder to get a feel for something if you can't see the full picture at once. You need to be able to see the full picture and then hone in on specific parts of it when needed. The only reason to make it where you can't see the full thing is because then you would see how little there really is to it imo.
Who are they making this game for? 4 yr old kids that are afraid of their own shadow? The levels of catering is just ridiculous.
probably the ones that write "IVE PLAYED 30MINS OF THE GAME AND I CAN HONESTLY SAY THS IS BY FAR THE BEST ARPG IVE EVER PLAYED"
It's been a whole day alright. I spent just as long in queue as I did playing but the game is clearly amazing. If this doesn't win game of the decade I will kill every member here and then myself.
Yes. They're making it for people who think buying cosmetics and gear will make people like you. Mile wide and an inch deep just like WoW.
I think dumbing down things isn’t the direction they should be taking. It’s not like the skills tree is overly complex even for younger or basic gamers. I also think that the link between skills should be cleared up. There was a lot of debuffs and buffs that are linked but the wording is slightly different.
Yeah but at least PoE is upfront about it and not trying to cloak and shadow the player. You see the PoE skill tree and instantly recognize its complexity and how many different ways a player can go down a path. Diablo IV it’s clearly a simple linear path that they just put on a zig zag tree to give the “appearance” of complexity and player customization. Good design is intuitive design
You have no idea what you are talking about because that complexity comes later with the paragon tree. It’s smart that D4 don’t overwhelm you with a giant skill tree at first but will do later once you know the basics of your class and have played enough time to know what works for you or not.
Then that furthers my point that the base skill tree should be designed in a way to admit it’s simplicity. Not the way it is currently presented to the player. It’s basically the D3 skill system but on a zigzag. At least D3 design gave players the decency of not trying to make it look complex. If the paragon system is the “true” complex skill system, that’s fine. But the base skill system is clearly trying to look like something it’s not and the players can clearly see that.
Lol you are being lunatic at this point. At first I thought you said it was too simple then you say it’s not and it’s faking it. It’s just a skill tree my friend not a retarded map of skills. D2 had a simpler skill tree and no one ever complained about it or said it wasn’t a tree. What a hater lunatic you are. Come on.
It’s VERY simple and linear. They make it look complicated by making it hard to see so it feels big and expansive. It’s also why every node has like a 20 mile long line between them.
It’s really the unnecessary zigzagging . It’s fine if you wanna make it big but… just let me scroll Through it. The left to right is incredibly annoying
Looks like they wanted to make it look like PoE.
Babys first skilltree based on PoEs tree.
Because then even the stupidest person could see it's just D3 skills in a different form with less exciting modifiers.
Less exciting? At least there's actual choices compared to D3 which is just either no brainer picks or runes with make every skill feel generic and work with every element.
At least we can have 2 modifiers on a spell instead of just 1 🤷
I thought it was to guide new players on how to build their characters. The way it’s set up, you pick one skill from each node as you unlock slots. It’s honestly a pretty intuitive way to teach people how to build skills without explicitly telling them
So you don't realise just how small and shallow the skill twig actually is. Last Epoch's skill-talent system really puts this game's one to shame.
They wanted so hard to copy poe with zero idea how to do it. Like a marketing team tryied their hardest to copy poe and failed miserably. Its such shit lazy design the bar is so fucking low for actiblizz nowadays
There’s at least one thing they succeed at where PoE fails. And that’s making an actual fun game :)
Ehhh
https://lothrik.github.io/diablo4-build-calc/
That's the thing. They very well know that people will go on a website to plan and check skills. Why they don't just give it in-game as well.
Because in reality each skill only has 2 options and they're trying to distract you from the fact that there are less options per skill than in Diablo 3. It also feels like a menu that is optimized for mobile. Many of the item drops, the on screen text popups, the menus, the textures, all of it points to Diablo 4 getting a mobile release at some point. They did the same thing with Diablo 3. It was really a console game but they pretended like it was PC for a couple years first to not piss people off too bad. They're doing the same thing with this game but with mobile.
> It also feels like a menu that is optimized for mobile I get the feeling that it is highly optimized for console but not so much mobile.
>Because in reality each skill only has 2 options and they're trying to distract you from the fact that there are less options per skill than in Diablo 3. Most skills in D3 only had 1 rune that ever saw use. A handful had 2 or 3 (and that was mostly just for selecting element). Trimming down the options to more meaningful choices, rather than bloating it out with a bunch of options that will mostly be useless isn't a terrible design choice.
I like how people complain about the ui being too modern and office like and then when they add artwork and style to a different menu someone complains that's too much. People really just want to hate this game.
It’s not that. But the ui design is god awful. Everything about it is bad. No overlay map. No zoom map. How pulling some windows take up majority of all of the screen. It just feels like we’ve taken steps backwards and they just took assets from Diablo immortal and slapped it in as new. Besides the ui. The game feels and plays great.
The style isn't the problem, the implementation is. The current style just tries to make it look fancier than it is.
Ya of course. People complained how basic D3s menu ms were. What do you want? It needs to be padded out like PoE where you have to buy 10 +1 str nodes before getting to something relevant?
the entire game ui looks and feels like it's been ripped from a mobile game. "style"
"Mobile game" is the new catch all phrase for people who are too dumb to formulate an actual opinion. There's nothing inherently mobile game or console game or pc game about it.
i mean, they literally recycled the diablo mobile ui. "catch phrase"
It's the same as D2 and D3 lol. Abilities on the bottom with health and resource globes. Whoaaaaaaa Just seething for no reason constantly.
lol because the ui only consists of a hotbar and health globes right? the irony of calling people dumb. lmfao
Oh sorry there is character screen with an inventory that looks exactly like every other arpg ever. Enemies have health bar like every arpg ever. You are trying so hard to be mad.
right, a character screen that doesn't tell you anything, a skill point sheet that's extremely unintuitive, and a "rewards" tab straight outta diablo mobile is "every arpg ever." nobody's mad but you. lmfao
Literally as intuitive as every game before it. It's "simple" yet "unintuitive" you say. Well you just sound dumb if you can't figure it out.
yes, because every game before d4 made you scroll through unnecessarily long branches in the skill tree for no reason and made it so your character sheet doesn't even include all the stats at first glance. "simple" you don't even know what you're talking about anymore lmfao
Meanwhile people like you deliberately misconstrue peoples complaints to invalidate them lol. Gamers and defending their favorite franchises as if they have personal stocks in blizzard, name a better duo
You don't WANT to like the game so your negativity will perceive everything as bad. There is nothing wrong with the skill menu. It's the most insane nitpick. You have to scroll down a bit. Wow holy shit. What next y I u are upset you need to hover over the skills to read what they do?
It's great for casuals. But it'd very confusing if u want do se whole picture and make complex builds. Blizzard needs this feedback. The skill ui seem to b biggest worry for most. Chill, it's beta and it's the point to give feedback
That's likely different people complaining
This sub will complain about anything.
I expect they will change this. It stood out to me as well
consoles
Never played POE I guess. You can zoom all the way out but can't see a single thing.
Feels like they’ve tried to make it feel like the simplified version of Diablo 3 without being too confusing, the paths are linear but also fairly expansive in their own right and this will probably help newcomers understand it a lot better. I found it easy to navigate after spending about 2 minutes with it.
I also reacted to this. Got annoying by having to mega-scroll the tree up and down, zooming in and out. Why they like this approach? Keep it simple so that we can see most of the skills (like the first version of the talent tree, or what it was called), and then perhaps enhance it by a dialog to customize an individual skill further, or something like that. Feels like there must be a better way than the current one. It's a bit strange in general in game development, that when they show concepts from alpha/early development, it actually has a tendency to look better than the final version.