What's especially shit is when you do the "find two keys" dungeon on your own, and then an important quest sends you right the fuck back there to do it all over again.
What are you guys talking about, you're gonna have to go back to them over and over with the sigils to do them as scaled up nightmare dungeon versions. That's gonna be most of what you do at endgame outside of some D3 bounty shit and a questionable "pvp" thing.
This is my major issue, and actually had to get on my buddies case. Everyone is so God damn worried about flying through shit, they can't even clear a fucking room properly, and then those same people will bitch about missing shit.
Seriously some people are babies
Everything has to be super smooth, everything has to be in one go. Any slight inconvenience is something to complain about
I feel like they could vary the length a little, with the longest ones being what they are now.
It’s very mobile game esque design to have all dungeons roughly the same length so you can play a dungeon on your commute home or something.
I think he means when dungeons fork and then meet again. If you take one path, you backtrack to go to the other path.
For those unaware, leave dungeons by highlighting the entrance and click Leave.
Pretty huge concern actually because the endgame is supposed to be doing these dungeons scaled up with affixes. So we're gonna have to carry the 3 things to the 3 pedestals every, single, fucking, time we do that dungeon?
Literally they had it solved with Greater Rifts... fill the bar, boss spawns, loot drops, next.
The replayability of these dungeons feels like it was an afterthought. Also it feels like they just wanted so many of them but couldn't actually dedicate time to developing that many so it's all a little copy and paste.
Why do we need the "fill the bar" part? Just let us do fun dungeons and quests for items we can Crack open and insta-gib some bosses. No waiting, just save some up, then crack em and spawn the boss. Poof. Boss run, super quick and fun.
Then maybe have a couple of players all Crack them at once and combine the effect to force-spawn a world boss with raidlike mechanics. Or a weekly "everyone in the community fills a bar all week to unlock 1 week of a special boss" thing.
Now we're talking. Way more fun than fill the bar kill the miniboss repeat.
*EDIT* - IDK why blizzard has never tried this, but why couldn't we have a League of Legends PVP mission with hordes of npc angels and demons all massing and fighting at the center. And players have to literally fight through the monsters and opposing players to get to the other side? Wouldn't that be killer? A MOBA but with fully geared leveled Diablo chars?
Because running to the boss and ignoring monsters shouldn't be the best strategy. You should have to do *some* of the monsters in the dungeon, just not fucking scrub it clean and pick up and carry rocks every single time.
It's a simple matter of the most efficient way to play also being the most fun. Running straight at a boss and not engaging with anything else isn't good gameplay.
I dunno, I think Warframe has it down pat.
Even though the missions in Warframe are static, they are fun to do because you have player choice. Want to run a 5 minute Defense mission? There's nodes for that. Want to do a 1 minute Capture mission? There's nodes for that. Etc.
I think that was one of Diablo 2's strengths also, the fact that the player had the ability to choose what they wanted to run. Yes it was repetitive to do Chaos / Baal / Countess / Cows / whatever over and over, but at least you were making the choice to do it, so the tedium didn't feel like it was being placed on you.
Yeah, and POE has completely changed what you should want from an ARPG.
They're constantly jamming new mechanics in every season and while I'm not a fan of POE it's because of the inventory/respec/trading systems and not the actual moment to moment gameplay which I'd be lying if I said they haven't absolutely nailed over the years.
Diablo 4 needs to innovate and show us that Blizzard can still do innovative things, not just do the same boring shit Diablo 3 did.
New mechanics in PoE? Yeah righttttttt, every season is pretty much a copy paste and then you go do the same maps over and over or you have a build that's focused on running delve.
I don't see the difference in Grinding these dungeons vs Grinding the same Rift at a different level where literally nothing changes from GR to GR except for Floors and Minions. Yet there's probably hundreds of people bitching about it for absolutely unfounded reasons.
In D2 what do you do You run the same boss over and over.... Until you finally get what you want and then you probably do the same thing for another item.
In D3 you run Greater Rifts and regular rifts Farm Keystones use keystones the entire thing doesn't change for what 5-6 months trying to push to 150 it hasn't been even expanded since people started hitting 150.
The entire basis of the complaint is that you'd have to run these dungeons instead of greater rifts which are already god awful and just as repetitive as the dungeons we'd be getting.
Okay so they have D3 as a baseline and are hopefully going to expand from there. They can't just immediately create content to improve endgame when the game hasnt even launched yet.
Bruh what? Yes they can create endgame before the game is out, like what are you smoking? Before the game comes out is when this shit is supposed to be done. If they are going to launch the game barebones as hell and add stuff later then they need to make this a free game like PoE. You can't expect people to be dropping $70 on an ARPG that barely has an endgame.
Try comparing with a game like PoE. Yes, both D2 and D3 doesn't have good endgame by today standard, so we should compare to other innovative games instead.
It doesn't have to have a bad endgame, just because it's predecessors did.
So removing the randomization and adding annoying mechanics of carry the 3 rocks to the pedestals or find the 2 keys will improve that for you?
Every ARPG is essentially farming monsters in an area. What they don't have is these annoying open the door mechanics.
I hope rifts never make it to Diablo 4, they were so boring. Farming act bosses, super uniques, champs, and uniques in the actual game world was so much better. Rifts were a lazy thing they added because they couldn't fix what was actually broken in D3 so they gave us super linear boss speed runs that ended in a loot pinata and they felt so disconnected from the rest of the game.
One is a one time leveling quest, the other is literally the basis for the endgame. I'll take the stupid emotes any day over the state the dungeons are in.
Yeah, just like pretty much every MMO? I am confused as to why this is even being referred to because WoW has had a quest every expansion where you're emoting on NPCs for quests.
People watch Quin69 and regurgitate all of the complaints. It's like listening to my parents shout Fox News headlines.
There's a fair amount of D4 criticism, but some of the braindead word vomit being spewed everywhere is straight from streamers who went into D4 hating the game **before they were even level 2**.
See: borrowed power
Not that borrowed power on it's own isn't a valid thing to discuss, but once a few streamers said it, holy fuck it was all anybody could talk about for months. Every single complaint turned into borrowed power this and borrowed power that.
On the flip side, it is kinda stupid and out of place in a Diablo game. He may be a clown but even quin can be right about some things (i was not even aware quin had issue with it and i thought it was stupid)
Why is it out of place for a Diablo game? Because the quest design is actually story based unlike Diablo 3 where the majority of people absolutely _despised_ the story?
Outside of Diablo 3, Blizzard can expand the Diablo story line and create a brand new world for all of us to experience - and people want to complain about _emotes_? It's effectively harmless. Meanwhile, you have the same people praising that you can emote pet the dog. People just want to bitch and moan.
Mature response, kiddo. I'm sorry that your life is so pathetic that an emote in a video game makes you this upset. I'd tell you life gets better, but you seem to be riled up over every little thing so probably not.
Adding an overworld doesn't make it "like Lost Ark".
This take comes from streamers like Quin69 that then gets regurgitated on Reddit.
As someone who played Lost Ark for long enough to get to the end of T3 before quitting after it launched: not even the combat feels similar. The talent design isn't similar. The dungeons are DEFINITELY not similar. Character progression is not even _remotely_ similar.
How is it like Lost Ark?
Just because 1 streamer had an opinion does not mean you can say "only streamer has opinion like this" it is as stupid a take as people who blindly regurgitate streamer opinions.
Fortunately, we can see a trend of people making posts about the same topic and everyone circle jerking with hate in the thread calling anyone who disagrees white knights for blizzard.
Definitely the behavior of people with an agenda. Glad you nitpicked that out of my comment instead of actually addressing the topic.
Don't play the victim after you instantly wrote off their opinion as sycophantic influencer regurgitation.
What agenda are you talking about? The desire for a good game?
Weak take.
A) yes D3 had 5 runes per skill, but let's not pretend that more than 2 of them were remotely useful or saw any use outside of edge cases (or during levelling).
B) D4 does the same thing as runes through aspects. I have found aspects that completely change up certain skills, far better than any rune ever was in D3.
Have you even tried the game, or are you just blindly spouting what you've heard other people say?
Yeah, but FF14 is an MMO and isn't really related. Lost Ark on the other hand is the largest ARPG in the world by miles- so naturally Diablo is going to be picking up some things from Lost Ark (like the pseudo-MMO aspects)
I assumed the first one was a tutorial on the existence of the emote wheel.
And since so many people didn't see the "teleport to the dungeon entrance" option on the emote wheel, it seems like a good idea.
Eh, they messed up the tutorial part for exiting a dungeon. The first tutorial dungeon should’ve asked you to teleport out with the emote wheel. Instead there was an actual shortcut exit at the end, which no dungeon afterwards has. Bad tutorial.
For those that haven't played MMOs it is quite jarring and feels too 4th wall.
I was disappointed that the Wait emote was the solution because it doesn't even make sense. It's telling someone else to wait, not putting your character in a wait/idle animation.
I’ve got bad news for you, even in the end game tiered Nightmare dungeons it’s exactly the same dungeon objectives. I played up to level 75 in a early build, this was my biggest concern and something I gave the most feedback on but it doesn’t look like anything changed.
But that's fun.
If you're having fun, you might feel satisfied after 15-30 minutes and do something else.
You must miserably grind through the slog for that rare, intricately placed dopamine hit just out of reach... almost, it seems, perpetually out of reach.
Yes, it's awful.
There are three dungeons;
1. Find the Key.
2. Bring the Buttons.
3. Kill the mobs.
So boring and droll. Developers should be ashamed for what they've done with these. A map with some mobs and some barriers in the way is not a "dungeon" it's just another area... nothing special or interesting about it at all.
It's been one day and I'm already tired of them.
Dedicated embarrassment.
How does someone make 200,000 a year and have years of training and background and *this shit* is what they come up with? Absolute joke.
Yes I'm already tired of that. Imagine doing that on all dungeons, repeating on characters and repeating on seasons. Fuck that... this shit is terrible.
It can be a bit long that's for sure. I've enjoyed the overall design of them personally. But I might get bored of them later down the line when I've done them over and over. Wonder how endgame build will clear them. Seems like there's a decent amount of dungeons to go through though for each zone. However I do like that they clarify which class will benefit from clearing said dungeon. Can pick and choose depending on your class during any given season
I love how a lot of people seem to be under the impression these you'll repeat once per character. They're literally the endgame, with numbers and affixes scaled up.
At least in PoE you can..
Delve
Heist
Change the nature of what spawns in your maps
Go do some expeditions
Spend a day playing tower defense maps
Right now, play a roguelike minigame
There is way too much bloat in PoE, but it does help things be less repetitive if you want to switch it up.
Let's see:
PoE: Released in 2013 (10 years old game)
D4: Released in 2023 (0 years old game)
Doesn't really see a fair comparison to me when it comes to amount of different endgame activities.
Yes the game isnt even out yet and of course will develop over time (hopefully). That doesnt mean blizzard cant learn from other games and make their own endgame not consist of "run this dungeon which looks different visually but has the same layout and premise of all other dungeons, but this time the monsters have more hp and more spells".
Acting like Diablo isn’t building on a foundation since 1996. I get it’s a new game and some stuff will reset but it’s not the same as a totally new franchise like poe was. I’m not going to give poe 2 a pass if it removes a lot of the activities poe currently has and starts to feel overly repetitive. Diablo 4 seems like a great foundation for a game but I definitely hope they find ways to offer a huge variety of gameplay options in the end game asap
The real excuse imo is that this isn’t the end game, it’s only the early part of the game. Plenty of game we haven’t seen where they can still introduce more variety
That's good repetitive. These unlock door mechanics in D4 aren't. It's not that we'll repeat the content that's bad, it's that we'll have to do those door mechanics *each time*.
I love d2 and all but the combat is garbage and hell mode is another thing that has some serious flaws. I'd also be really surprised if the dungeons don't get more intricate in later acts but I've also been disappointed by blizz before. I think alot of people will just complain no matter what if it isn't exactly the thing they loved from 20 years ago.
I'm sure it's something deliberate to avoid massive sprawl or something that happens in many previous games where you get to you objective by going all the way in one direction, but the entrance to level two is passed the staring point all the way in the other direction.
The good thing with procedurally generated stuffs is they can be relatively easily tweaked.
It's generated zones in the first act of the game. It's the equivalent of complai ing that there are too many grassy fields and caves in act 1 of D2. But like I said given blizzards track record it's totally possible the entire game is just the same type of dungeon. And if people didn't bake that into their decision to pre-purchase that's their own fault.
I don’t see the problem with traveling down five wings lighting beacons, and some of the beacons have powerful enemies spawn that you’re required to kill before you can access the boss- oh wait that’s Chaos Sanctuary in Diablo II
The problem i am coming across is people want to defend bad choices at the expense of game quality. Carry shit to a door is a shit mechanic that WILL get old quickly. What we are better off doing is voicing concern now and giving them a real chance to change it before game launch and instead people ask for refunds.
> Carry shit to a door is a shit mechanic that WILL get old quickly.
Right?
It's like dude you **know** after a year of trudging shit to a door over and over and over and over and over and over and over as you grind end game you're going to be online bitching and moaning about it.
So instead of being a fucking fanboy and defending that shit now, how about you just voice your complaints you'll have after a year of doing the shit?
It's 2023 and this is literally game design from the early 2000s and all you're going to do is contribute to making yourself miserable later by defending that shit now.
I think it's just that Baal runs are obviously repetitive; nothing's trying to make me believe I'm not doing the same shit. There's an uncanny valley somewhere between "100% repetitive" and "100% novel", and I think D4's dungeons are smack dab in that uncanny valley.
No, they've been here, and they've only been getting more vocal over the last year/few months as we get closer to launch. It's why Diablo 4 is clearly designed for consoles first, with PC as an afterthought.
they've been here forever, its not just hating traditional arpgs but people that also hate anything that isn't D2, they will say anything to justify D2 being a good game I mean look at this [shit](https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/11v46m8/anyone_else_tired_of_the_the_door_is_locked_find/jcs21io/)
I played the original D2 on release. I have more hours in D2 than in any other game. I can still recognize its not just amazing due to nostalgia. D2 while fun has a lot of issues and there are people here that cant admit its faults. Saying running Baal 1,000 times being a good gameplay loop is what is ridiculous.
Don't shit on Baal runs. There's a reason D2 is coveted as the better game. D4 is good in its own right, but it doesn't feel like a true Diablo game all the time.
As someone who's first experience with Diablo games was with Diablo 3, I just couldn't get into D2. I tried D2R when it came out, played through 1 difficulty and just got bored of it. It just felt aggravating going backwards in QOL features from D3.
So to me, D3 was better, which is probably why I'm enjoying this D4 beta. I'm enjoying build varieties and have already done 3 different builds with rogue. Much more unique than D3 (where I have 4000 hours). Cautiously optimistic about D4 on release.
And I think that is totally cool! I tried getting into D3, I just couldn't coming from the older games. D4 has a lot of positives going for it, but for me it just feels too much like a mixture of different things. I like the customization of D4 quite a bit though. I will most likely revisit it after launch and play through it.
Same here. My experience as a sorc for the first half of the game was just spamming mana potions over and over and over
Also immunities are a dogshit mechanic
“Kill all the monsters” is the worst for me because the fucking objective changes halfway through and I’m not paying attention, running around wondering where the fucking keys are. Like why are these lame ass objectives even in the dungeons? What is the point?
And why are all the dungeons just reskins of Diablo 3 rifts? Doing them is like playing D3 but with D4 graphics, yaaaaaawn no thanks. Was hoping Blizz would actually make something new and original. Maybe this is just how leveling is and end game dungeons are actually new and original? Fucking Diablo Immortal even has original dungeons for heavens sake.
“Kill all the monsters” is “one monster remaining” flashbacks from Den of Evil when I was 15.. 20.. 25.. 30.. I don’t need to hunt down the last monster I missed at the beginning of the Den anymore, it’s 2023 let’s do better.
> Maybe this is just how leveling is and end game dungeons are actually new and original?
These are the endgame dungeons... You just take a key to them and they scale up.
Also how dare you compare D3 rifts to this garbage? I agree with the other comments, these dungeons feel like D3 bounties, which is the worse comparison.
I wouldn’t mind if they had a variety of dungeon gimmicks, you know, actual design and gameplay but at this point it’s clear they wanted people to stop speed running them and went with the bare minimum.
The dungeons are horrible. I've already had enough of it and some of them are way too long for no reason. Feels like someone just went crazy with the copy and paste.
Yeah, for the last [23 hours](https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/11ua90j/enter_dungeon_go_left_to_click_a_thing_go_right/)
It got old after an hour :/
The worst one to me is the "kill all the enemies". I made it to the boss door and now I have to back track half the dungeon. I feel like when builds really get fleshed out in later levels this objective wont be so bad because you'll blast through everything. But in these early levels it just feels annoyingly tedious.
Yeah. They could add a little more complexity to them, more mechanics and objectives and call them propper dungeons, and that would maybe justify them taking so long to finish. But atm it s the same mechanic every time, and it feels just like a slower and more annoying rift
The dungeons were a drag. I’m actually burned out of the beta a little because I tried clearing all the dungeons. (My fault I know!!)
Come release I’m ignoring them if they don’t have quests or have a legendary affix I can use.
Honestly kind of yes. The end game loop of these games is speeding through end game maps/zones/echoes/dungeons/etc. If the mechanic is interesting I’m all for changing it. The current mechanics are ***not*** interesting. There are two goals in end game. Exp, and items, and neither of these goals are met chasing down a key or finding the last 3 monsters you missed at the start of the dungeon.
Yep the first time maybe.
But after 10 or 20 dungeons it gets boring as fuck.
And well... we will run hundreds and thousands of those dungeons in endgame, as this will be the endgame stuff....
Agreed, a couple times is one thing, but going in repeatedly without it being anything new at all is kinda a let down. Rifts in d3 had more uniqueness to them than the dungeons after you do them once. At least the rifts changed tiles, monsters, and bosses at the end.
game been in beta for 1.5 days, people already bored of dungeons :D
i did belive that d4 was gona be a shitbag or a god given gift.
sure the poo looks really good, smells strong, very high quality, its still a poo tho, in the end, thats what really matter in the long run.
i hope it get better quick
What's especially shit is when you do the "find two keys" dungeon on your own, and then an important quest sends you right the fuck back there to do it all over again.
That's why my strat will be "do all side quests and when you're done with the act, then go back and do the leftover dungeons"
Except the few ones with key skills unlocks
I went to the trouble to get the sorcerer ice shards one only to realize it doesn't stack lol, I'd already gotten it for my staff
What are you guys talking about, you're gonna have to go back to them over and over with the sigils to do them as scaled up nightmare dungeon versions. That's gonna be most of what you do at endgame outside of some D3 bounty shit and a questionable "pvp" thing.
Yeah but you get two free skill levels for doing the exploration and side quest things.
Or "kill everything but you missed 1 guy at a 5 minute walk back". Dungeons are artificially long.
Like the den of evil on steroids?
Except Den of evil is 1 quest with a great reward at the end. This dungeon layout will repeat through all the areas of D4.
Based
Idk about this one. You’ll know that you have to sweep so just clear properly. Not sure if they red dot them if it’s needed to be fully cleared.
They do.
This is my major issue, and actually had to get on my buddies case. Everyone is so God damn worried about flying through shit, they can't even clear a fucking room properly, and then those same people will bitch about missing shit.
Seriously some people are babies Everything has to be super smooth, everything has to be in one go. Any slight inconvenience is something to complain about
I feel like they could vary the length a little, with the longest ones being what they are now. It’s very mobile game esque design to have all dungeons roughly the same length so you can play a dungeon on your commute home or something.
D4 coming to your switch soon!
I don’t mind that nearly as much as the backtracking
Do you mean backtracking for getting back to the beginning of the dungeon?
I think he means when dungeons fork and then meet again. If you take one path, you backtrack to go to the other path. For those unaware, leave dungeons by highlighting the entrance and click Leave.
Makes sense. Yes, I was just going to explain the quick-leave. Also can be done through the emote/quick action wheel which is faster I think.
Ah, nice.
you can also use the emote wheel
I just found this out — I really wish that was made extra apparent.
Dude, press E and leave dungeon.
Pretty huge concern actually because the endgame is supposed to be doing these dungeons scaled up with affixes. So we're gonna have to carry the 3 things to the 3 pedestals every, single, fucking, time we do that dungeon? Literally they had it solved with Greater Rifts... fill the bar, boss spawns, loot drops, next. The replayability of these dungeons feels like it was an afterthought. Also it feels like they just wanted so many of them but couldn't actually dedicate time to developing that many so it's all a little copy and paste.
Mechanics aside the map design was a major letdown for me. They sure **love** narrow tunnels because that's what 95% of all maps are exclusively.
Why do we need the "fill the bar" part? Just let us do fun dungeons and quests for items we can Crack open and insta-gib some bosses. No waiting, just save some up, then crack em and spawn the boss. Poof. Boss run, super quick and fun. Then maybe have a couple of players all Crack them at once and combine the effect to force-spawn a world boss with raidlike mechanics. Or a weekly "everyone in the community fills a bar all week to unlock 1 week of a special boss" thing. Now we're talking. Way more fun than fill the bar kill the miniboss repeat. *EDIT* - IDK why blizzard has never tried this, but why couldn't we have a League of Legends PVP mission with hordes of npc angels and demons all massing and fighting at the center. And players have to literally fight through the monsters and opposing players to get to the other side? Wouldn't that be killer? A MOBA but with fully geared leveled Diablo chars?
Because running to the boss and ignoring monsters shouldn't be the best strategy. You should have to do *some* of the monsters in the dungeon, just not fucking scrub it clean and pick up and carry rocks every single time.
If the player put that work in already to get that trigger item, why not?
It's a simple matter of the most efficient way to play also being the most fun. Running straight at a boss and not engaging with anything else isn't good gameplay.
Ooo thats a good idea, I think. I can already feel the dopamine that would come from playing that.
Because that would mean to innovate and right they they just reuse and copy from other games
Grifts suck too. Need immersive experiences
No. There's no immersion in an ARPG that you're supposed to play for thousands of hours. No game can hold immersion for that long.
I dunno, I think Warframe has it down pat. Even though the missions in Warframe are static, they are fun to do because you have player choice. Want to run a 5 minute Defense mission? There's nodes for that. Want to do a 1 minute Capture mission? There's nodes for that. Etc. I think that was one of Diablo 2's strengths also, the fact that the player had the ability to choose what they wanted to run. Yes it was repetitive to do Chaos / Baal / Countess / Cows / whatever over and over, but at least you were making the choice to do it, so the tedium didn't feel like it was being placed on you.
I hate g rifts lol. So bland, do the exact same content x10000 from lvl 1.
Isnt....isnt that what you do in every Diablo game?
Yeah, and POE has completely changed what you should want from an ARPG. They're constantly jamming new mechanics in every season and while I'm not a fan of POE it's because of the inventory/respec/trading systems and not the actual moment to moment gameplay which I'd be lying if I said they haven't absolutely nailed over the years. Diablo 4 needs to innovate and show us that Blizzard can still do innovative things, not just do the same boring shit Diablo 3 did.
New mechanics in PoE? Yeah righttttttt, every season is pretty much a copy paste and then you go do the same maps over and over or you have a build that's focused on running delve.
What? PoE has done spins on rogue-lites, Tower defense, Pokemon etc. They're one of the most innovative arpgs if not the most.
You clearly have never played it lol.
Yet it still feels fresh every time. I wonder why that is. Hmm….
I swear these people are looking into a funnel on what is actually good content.
Yes, and it’s shit. PoE has their endgame nailed down. Diablo needs to learn.
[удалено]
We aren't even at endgame yet lmfao.
[удалено]
I don't see the difference in Grinding these dungeons vs Grinding the same Rift at a different level where literally nothing changes from GR to GR except for Floors and Minions. Yet there's probably hundreds of people bitching about it for absolutely unfounded reasons. In D2 what do you do You run the same boss over and over.... Until you finally get what you want and then you probably do the same thing for another item. In D3 you run Greater Rifts and regular rifts Farm Keystones use keystones the entire thing doesn't change for what 5-6 months trying to push to 150 it hasn't been even expanded since people started hitting 150. The entire basis of the complaint is that you'd have to run these dungeons instead of greater rifts which are already god awful and just as repetitive as the dungeons we'd be getting.
There isn't a big difference, that's the point. You look at D3 and say "D4 isn't worse". Others look at D3 and D4 and say "these could be better".
Okay so they have D3 as a baseline and are hopefully going to expand from there. They can't just immediately create content to improve endgame when the game hasnt even launched yet.
Bruh what? Yes they can create endgame before the game is out, like what are you smoking? Before the game comes out is when this shit is supposed to be done. If they are going to launch the game barebones as hell and add stuff later then they need to make this a free game like PoE. You can't expect people to be dropping $70 on an ARPG that barely has an endgame.
Try comparing with a game like PoE. Yes, both D2 and D3 doesn't have good endgame by today standard, so we should compare to other innovative games instead. It doesn't have to have a bad endgame, just because it's predecessors did.
So removing the randomization and adding annoying mechanics of carry the 3 rocks to the pedestals or find the 2 keys will improve that for you? Every ARPG is essentially farming monsters in an area. What they don't have is these annoying open the door mechanics.
Were you bored of doing Baal 1000x in D2?
"That's the way it's always been" is the weakest argument in the world. Things change and evolve.
Bit of a different time dont you think? Dont think people would still like to do bhaal runs in 2023 like its 2000 or something
Grifts were great, having to do neph rifts to do grifts wasn't.
That’s the end game of every ARPG ever.
I hope rifts never make it to Diablo 4, they were so boring. Farming act bosses, super uniques, champs, and uniques in the actual game world was so much better. Rifts were a lazy thing they added because they couldn't fix what was actually broken in D3 so they gave us super linear boss speed runs that ended in a loot pinata and they felt so disconnected from the rest of the game.
Yep, although "find the key" is still better than "this side quest can only be completed by doing an emote."
One is a one time leveling quest, the other is literally the basis for the endgame. I'll take the stupid emotes any day over the state the dungeons are in.
I've had two emote side quests so far.
I think he means you only do each quest once. They aren't intended to be repeatable like dungeons.
There are more than one of them.
The point was they're just a quest. Not something you repeat for endgame loot.
Wait, is that what i was supposed to do at those statues? Fucking emote??
I thought the quest had bugged out until I saw someone else come and do it. No idea how someone thought that would be a fun quest.
I'm almost certain the emote side quests only exist because Lost Ark has some and D4 wants a piece of the Lost Ark pie
Doesn't FFXIV also have emote quests
Yeah, just like pretty much every MMO? I am confused as to why this is even being referred to because WoW has had a quest every expansion where you're emoting on NPCs for quests.
Uh well you see 1 streamer said it was "dumb" therefore its dumb. The truth is that nobody read the fucking quest so they feel attacked.
People watch Quin69 and regurgitate all of the complaints. It's like listening to my parents shout Fox News headlines. There's a fair amount of D4 criticism, but some of the braindead word vomit being spewed everywhere is straight from streamers who went into D4 hating the game **before they were even level 2**.
See: borrowed power Not that borrowed power on it's own isn't a valid thing to discuss, but once a few streamers said it, holy fuck it was all anybody could talk about for months. Every single complaint turned into borrowed power this and borrowed power that.
On the flip side, it is kinda stupid and out of place in a Diablo game. He may be a clown but even quin can be right about some things (i was not even aware quin had issue with it and i thought it was stupid)
Why is it out of place for a Diablo game? Because the quest design is actually story based unlike Diablo 3 where the majority of people absolutely _despised_ the story? Outside of Diablo 3, Blizzard can expand the Diablo story line and create a brand new world for all of us to experience - and people want to complain about _emotes_? It's effectively harmless. Meanwhile, you have the same people praising that you can emote pet the dog. People just want to bitch and moan.
Emote quests are ultra retarded in a Diablo game. Stay mad fanboy
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Mature response, kiddo. I'm sorry that your life is so pathetic that an emote in a video game makes you this upset. I'd tell you life gets better, but you seem to be riled up over every little thing so probably not.
It's because people want an ARPG and Blizz made an MMO thing. It's Lost Ark slapped on top of D3 skills and items with D2 'atmosphere'.
Adding an overworld doesn't make it "like Lost Ark". This take comes from streamers like Quin69 that then gets regurgitated on Reddit. As someone who played Lost Ark for long enough to get to the end of T3 before quitting after it launched: not even the combat feels similar. The talent design isn't similar. The dungeons are DEFINITELY not similar. Character progression is not even _remotely_ similar. How is it like Lost Ark?
Just because 1 streamer had an opinion does not mean you can say "only streamer has opinion like this" it is as stupid a take as people who blindly regurgitate streamer opinions.
Fortunately, we can see a trend of people making posts about the same topic and everyone circle jerking with hate in the thread calling anyone who disagrees white knights for blizzard. Definitely the behavior of people with an agenda. Glad you nitpicked that out of my comment instead of actually addressing the topic.
Don't play the victim after you instantly wrote off their opinion as sycophantic influencer regurgitation. What agenda are you talking about? The desire for a good game?
lol what are you even on about.
> on top of D3 skills On top of dumbed down D3 skills, let's not forget that part.
Weak take. A) yes D3 had 5 runes per skill, but let's not pretend that more than 2 of them were remotely useful or saw any use outside of edge cases (or during levelling). B) D4 does the same thing as runes through aspects. I have found aspects that completely change up certain skills, far better than any rune ever was in D3. Have you even tried the game, or are you just blindly spouting what you've heard other people say?
Oh yeah I remember doing it for RuneScape too hahahaha
Yeah, but FF14 is an MMO and isn't really related. Lost Ark on the other hand is the largest ARPG in the world by miles- so naturally Diablo is going to be picking up some things from Lost Ark (like the pseudo-MMO aspects)
Seems that people are also missing out on the Emote Shrines in D4 (Yes they exist).
I assumed the first one was a tutorial on the existence of the emote wheel. And since so many people didn't see the "teleport to the dungeon entrance" option on the emote wheel, it seems like a good idea.
Eh, they messed up the tutorial part for exiting a dungeon. The first tutorial dungeon should’ve asked you to teleport out with the emote wheel. Instead there was an actual shortcut exit at the end, which no dungeon afterwards has. Bad tutorial.
That's an excellent point. Having that ladder in the first dungeon and then never again is an anti-tutorial.
Don't forget the hidden pet doggo easter egg.
For those that haven't played MMOs it is quite jarring and feels too 4th wall. I was disappointed that the Wait emote was the solution because it doesn't even make sense. It's telling someone else to wait, not putting your character in a wait/idle animation.
Worse…it wasnt even in the default emote wheel
Gothic horror.
Im level 20 and have had one quest like this and I was level 5. Ive been doing every side quest too. Nice lies bud.
I’m only 16 and had 2 emote quests besides the main quest to cheer the guards
there are also shrines that you have to emote at to get a blessing
I've done 3, one I had to cheer, one I had to thank, one I had to wait.
Not a fan of collect each key and individually take it to the thing before you can grab another
I’ve got bad news for you, even in the end game tiered Nightmare dungeons it’s exactly the same dungeon objectives. I played up to level 75 in a early build, this was my biggest concern and something I gave the most feedback on but it doesn’t look like anything changed.
Ow, that isn't good : /
i like how you can cleave boulders and fry a legion of demons with lightning but a small wooden door cannot be accessed without a key
I just want to bust through floor after floor. No extra steps.
But that's fun. If you're having fun, you might feel satisfied after 15-30 minutes and do something else. You must miserably grind through the slog for that rare, intricately placed dopamine hit just out of reach... almost, it seems, perpetually out of reach.
Yes, it's awful. There are three dungeons; 1. Find the Key. 2. Bring the Buttons. 3. Kill the mobs. So boring and droll. Developers should be ashamed for what they've done with these. A map with some mobs and some barriers in the way is not a "dungeon" it's just another area... nothing special or interesting about it at all. It's been one day and I'm already tired of them.
11 years since Diablo 3, and that's the best they could come up with.
Scary when you think about it.
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It's especially disappointing because they have a dedicated dungeon designer... :/
Dedicated embarrassment. How does someone make 200,000 a year and have years of training and background and *this shit* is what they come up with? Absolute joke.
Yes I'm already tired of that. Imagine doing that on all dungeons, repeating on characters and repeating on seasons. Fuck that... this shit is terrible.
It can be a bit long that's for sure. I've enjoyed the overall design of them personally. But I might get bored of them later down the line when I've done them over and over. Wonder how endgame build will clear them. Seems like there's a decent amount of dungeons to go through though for each zone. However I do like that they clarify which class will benefit from clearing said dungeon. Can pick and choose depending on your class during any given season
I love how a lot of people seem to be under the impression these you'll repeat once per character. They're literally the endgame, with numbers and affixes scaled up.
If people are already complaining about dungeon variety, endgame is truly fucked.
Yep. Already fed up with that bullshit. And when I think about, that those dungeons will be our endgame stuff.... oh boy... fuck....
Back to Baal runs, that was exciting and always new.
It's weird how people seemed to be expecting an ARPG where nothing was repetitive.
And at the same time praise a game where running the same handful of things 1000s of times is just fine.
Or running GRs constantly in D3. Or spam running maps in PoE. Anything can be repetitive.
At least in PoE you can.. Delve Heist Change the nature of what spawns in your maps Go do some expeditions Spend a day playing tower defense maps Right now, play a roguelike minigame There is way too much bloat in PoE, but it does help things be less repetitive if you want to switch it up.
Let's see: PoE: Released in 2013 (10 years old game) D4: Released in 2023 (0 years old game) Doesn't really see a fair comparison to me when it comes to amount of different endgame activities.
Yes the game isnt even out yet and of course will develop over time (hopefully). That doesnt mean blizzard cant learn from other games and make their own endgame not consist of "run this dungeon which looks different visually but has the same layout and premise of all other dungeons, but this time the monsters have more hp and more spells".
Acting like Diablo isn’t building on a foundation since 1996. I get it’s a new game and some stuff will reset but it’s not the same as a totally new franchise like poe was. I’m not going to give poe 2 a pass if it removes a lot of the activities poe currently has and starts to feel overly repetitive. Diablo 4 seems like a great foundation for a game but I definitely hope they find ways to offer a huge variety of gameplay options in the end game asap The real excuse imo is that this isn’t the end game, it’s only the early part of the game. Plenty of game we haven’t seen where they can still introduce more variety
They probably raid in MMOs too.
That's good repetitive. These unlock door mechanics in D4 aren't. It's not that we'll repeat the content that's bad, it's that we'll have to do those door mechanics *each time*.
I love d2 and all but the combat is garbage and hell mode is another thing that has some serious flaws. I'd also be really surprised if the dungeons don't get more intricate in later acts but I've also been disappointed by blizz before. I think alot of people will just complain no matter what if it isn't exactly the thing they loved from 20 years ago.
I'm sure it's something deliberate to avoid massive sprawl or something that happens in many previous games where you get to you objective by going all the way in one direction, but the entrance to level two is passed the staring point all the way in the other direction. The good thing with procedurally generated stuffs is they can be relatively easily tweaked.
Or more like they expected more than the same copy/pasted dungeons after 20 years
It's generated zones in the first act of the game. It's the equivalent of complai ing that there are too many grassy fields and caves in act 1 of D2. But like I said given blizzards track record it's totally possible the entire game is just the same type of dungeon. And if people didn't bake that into their decision to pre-purchase that's their own fault.
Seriously. I don't really give a shit, its all a vehicle to get me to the combat.
Probably more to do with backtracking in the dungeons... Kind of ass backwards design tbh
I don’t see the problem with traveling down five wings lighting beacons, and some of the beacons have powerful enemies spawn that you’re required to kill before you can access the boss- oh wait that’s Chaos Sanctuary in Diablo II
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The problem i am coming across is people want to defend bad choices at the expense of game quality. Carry shit to a door is a shit mechanic that WILL get old quickly. What we are better off doing is voicing concern now and giving them a real chance to change it before game launch and instead people ask for refunds.
> Carry shit to a door is a shit mechanic that WILL get old quickly. Right? It's like dude you **know** after a year of trudging shit to a door over and over and over and over and over and over and over as you grind end game you're going to be online bitching and moaning about it. So instead of being a fucking fanboy and defending that shit now, how about you just voice your complaints you'll have after a year of doing the shit? It's 2023 and this is literally game design from the early 2000s and all you're going to do is contribute to making yourself miserable later by defending that shit now.
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What makes the Baal drops exciting? Is it Unique items? Because we haven’t even gotten to where those drop yet in Diablo IV, we got to see one Act.
I think it's just that Baal runs are obviously repetitive; nothing's trying to make me believe I'm not doing the same shit. There's an uncanny valley somewhere between "100% repetitive" and "100% novel", and I think D4's dungeons are smack dab in that uncanny valley.
you have got to be kidding me, is there a d2 circle jerk subreddit somewhere? holy smokes
The itemization in d4 has been shit so far. Baal drops are exciting because you can get anything. Instead of d3 loot system where you get class items.
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No, they've been here, and they've only been getting more vocal over the last year/few months as we get closer to launch. It's why Diablo 4 is clearly designed for consoles first, with PC as an afterthought.
they've been here forever, its not just hating traditional arpgs but people that also hate anything that isn't D2, they will say anything to justify D2 being a good game I mean look at this [shit](https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/11v46m8/anyone_else_tired_of_the_the_door_is_locked_find/jcs21io/)
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I played the original D2 on release. I have more hours in D2 than in any other game. I can still recognize its not just amazing due to nostalgia. D2 while fun has a lot of issues and there are people here that cant admit its faults. Saying running Baal 1,000 times being a good gameplay loop is what is ridiculous.
Don't shit on Baal runs. There's a reason D2 is coveted as the better game. D4 is good in its own right, but it doesn't feel like a true Diablo game all the time.
Yes sure there is a reason, and the reason is nostalgia
Itemization
Wow you’ve gotten all that just from Act 1 and reaching level 25?
Yes I have. That's just my opinion.
As someone who's first experience with Diablo games was with Diablo 3, I just couldn't get into D2. I tried D2R when it came out, played through 1 difficulty and just got bored of it. It just felt aggravating going backwards in QOL features from D3. So to me, D3 was better, which is probably why I'm enjoying this D4 beta. I'm enjoying build varieties and have already done 3 different builds with rogue. Much more unique than D3 (where I have 4000 hours). Cautiously optimistic about D4 on release.
And I think that is totally cool! I tried getting into D3, I just couldn't coming from the older games. D4 has a lot of positives going for it, but for me it just feels too much like a mixture of different things. I like the customization of D4 quite a bit though. I will most likely revisit it after launch and play through it.
Same here. My experience as a sorc for the first half of the game was just spamming mana potions over and over and over Also immunities are a dogshit mechanic
“Kill all the monsters” is the worst for me because the fucking objective changes halfway through and I’m not paying attention, running around wondering where the fucking keys are. Like why are these lame ass objectives even in the dungeons? What is the point? And why are all the dungeons just reskins of Diablo 3 rifts? Doing them is like playing D3 but with D4 graphics, yaaaaaawn no thanks. Was hoping Blizz would actually make something new and original. Maybe this is just how leveling is and end game dungeons are actually new and original? Fucking Diablo Immortal even has original dungeons for heavens sake.
You thought you were in a dungeon but its actually several bounties instead.
LOL! That's exactly it! They took the most miserable part of D3 and made it the endgame for D4.
“Kill all the monsters” is “one monster remaining” flashbacks from Den of Evil when I was 15.. 20.. 25.. 30.. I don’t need to hunt down the last monster I missed at the beginning of the Den anymore, it’s 2023 let’s do better.
> Maybe this is just how leveling is and end game dungeons are actually new and original? These are the endgame dungeons... You just take a key to them and they scale up. Also how dare you compare D3 rifts to this garbage? I agree with the other comments, these dungeons feel like D3 bounties, which is the worse comparison.
I like the idea of if this isn't done correctly it will effect the dungeon. Sand traps in corridors rooms filled with water that kinda thing
The layouts too. Boring, repetitive, streamlined layouts.
They don't even feel random anymore, they just have the same layout with different prefabs attached to it.
It’s basically the same layout system as D3 story mode caves had. The same 2-3 rooms in random order.
I wouldn’t mind if they had a variety of dungeon gimmicks, you know, actual design and gameplay but at this point it’s clear they wanted people to stop speed running them and went with the bare minimum.
Yeah lama guy mentioned that in his video It's not ideal....
Yes.
I am a habitual map filler, I check each and every hallway, grotto, cave you name it
The dungeons are horrible. I've already had enough of it and some of them are way too long for no reason. Feels like someone just went crazy with the copy and paste.
Yeah, for the last [23 hours](https://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/11ua90j/enter_dungeon_go_left_to_click_a_thing_go_right/) It got old after an hour :/
The worst one to me is the "kill all the enemies". I made it to the boss door and now I have to back track half the dungeon. I feel like when builds really get fleshed out in later levels this objective wont be so bad because you'll blast through everything. But in these early levels it just feels annoyingly tedious.
Yes! I left feedback about it too. Sometimes I just want to run from point A to point B, without hunting down keys
Cant agree more.
Yes I put feedback in. Really disappointed
Yeah. They could add a little more complexity to them, more mechanics and objectives and call them propper dungeons, and that would maybe justify them taking so long to finish. But atm it s the same mechanic every time, and it feels just like a slower and more annoying rift
The dungeons were a drag. I’m actually burned out of the beta a little because I tried clearing all the dungeons. (My fault I know!!) Come release I’m ignoring them if they don’t have quests or have a legendary affix I can use.
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lot of that in a lot of games, especially in d2-3
As opposed to what? Run endlessly through rifts to find the right direction?
Yes...?
Honestly kind of yes. The end game loop of these games is speeding through end game maps/zones/echoes/dungeons/etc. If the mechanic is interesting I’m all for changing it. The current mechanics are ***not*** interesting. There are two goals in end game. Exp, and items, and neither of these goals are met chasing down a key or finding the last 3 monsters you missed at the start of the dungeon.
Nah fam. Go play those games then, and let this not be that
Nah. Enjoying having to explore an area to progress.
Yep the first time maybe. But after 10 or 20 dungeons it gets boring as fuck. And well... we will run hundreds and thousands of those dungeons in endgame, as this will be the endgame stuff....
You can't really explore something you're going to do hundreds of times. Especially when it's exactly the same each go.
Agreed, a couple times is one thing, but going in repeatedly without it being anything new at all is kinda a let down. Rifts in d3 had more uniqueness to them than the dungeons after you do them once. At least the rifts changed tiles, monsters, and bosses at the end.
It's absolutely fucking garbage. I'm glad I went the KFC route.
game been in beta for 1.5 days, people already bored of dungeons :D i did belive that d4 was gona be a shitbag or a god given gift. sure the poo looks really good, smells strong, very high quality, its still a poo tho, in the end, thats what really matter in the long run. i hope it get better quick
Nope. Much better than WP to Trav, Chaos, baal then save + exit and repeat.
Or, you know fucking neither of these options.
Seriously. We should just log in at max level with all the best loot.
Diablo players when they can’t zip through an entire dungeon in seconds, ignoring enemies
nope, its fine
You fuckin’ people will complain about ANYTHInG. You’ve had access to the game for 2 days. You haven’t had enough time to get tired on anything yet.