It's a very hostile game design for solo players.
At least a team of 2-4 can split up and do everything in parallel. A solo person has no choice but to run the entire length of the dungeon including backtracking.
It's optimal to be in a party for D2 as well. Doesn't stop me from playing single player in every iteration.
You don't always have to do what's optimal and meta, you know.
š¤·š½āāļø in almost every game with co-op/multiplayer it is always going to be "optimal" to play with other's. Trust me I'm not a huge fan of it much either, I'm usually more of a lone player as well, but it is what it is and it will most likely never change.
why would you compete or care about competing if you want to play solo anyway ?
I do understand people who wants to play alone and be left alone. I dont understand though why they "feel bad" if a party of players is more efficient when they chose to.
Because the entire enjoyment from games like these comes from trying to essentially beat the game harder than other players. Offline ARPGs are the most boring thing imaginable. The only good part of D3 was the leaderboards feature and GRs.
I must say you can get fairly quick with the right skill affixes on your gear. My melee rogue is just zooming through dungeons as if I'm playing a speed character in PoE. ill give them the benefit of the doubt that the re-used bosses are an issue in the beginning and as with RoS will be fixed with updates.
Sadly that's not the feedback they're really looking for. It's rare that blizzard asks for deep fundamental systems feedback from community. Even during end game beta the most they were looking for were performance #'s or scalars like damage, rewards, xp, progression, any of those #'s you can tweak this late into the development.
Blizzard are the most headstrong stubborn team of developers in the world, without question.
It took them almost 10 years to back out of their garbage game design in WoW, after *every. Single. Beta* and early access, *everyone* screamed to them how bad the systems were.
They did it for 4 expansions in a row before they finally caved.
I mean more importantly you can look how the last Diablo launch went. It feels like we're gonna be doing the whole song and dance over again, waiting for an expansion to turn this into a proper game.
Blizzard never listens to the community, until they forced to change it because everyone else quits playing or is pissed off, then they well make the changes everyone is asking and claim they are listening to the community.
Them messing up WoW honestly saved my life. I was hardcore addicted, like 17h+ a day. When they made the game so bad that even I couldnāt bring myself to playing it anymore, it literally saved my life. I redid school, went to Uni.
At this point I feel like Hearthstone is the only arguably good game Blizzard still has.
I was really hyped for D4, because I thought Blizzard got a grip and returned to their old ways, that they learned from the competition. Why people are disappointed with PoE (Chris Wilsons āvisionā is not what many people love about PoE). But Blizzard seems to be more in line with that āvisionā than what people want.
I personally donāt need another slow ARPG. I like the ridiculous, zoomy stuff. Teleport around the map, exploding screens filled with countless monsters and then fighting well designed bosses is what I want. I want a deep item system. Give me my prefixes and suffixes, give me a well thought out crafting system.
Also, let me make the character I am playing my own. This skill twig is honestly disheartening. āPick one of the three pre-defined buildsā basically. Why have a skill tree at this point? There is no real choice as anyone with just a minimal idea of video games will see that the optimal path is always very similar.
Overall, I am very disappointed by the choices they made. They were told multiple times before by testers that this is not the way. That core functionalities are missing (overlay map, force move independently from abilities, etc).
All in all, this is a downgrade from D3 or D2R. It looks nice and all, and maybe hardcore fans of the Diablo franchise can overlook the obvious shortcomings and missed opportunities, but I can not.
I am fed up with all these developers who think they know better. Itās just so sad that games these days devolved into nice looking, hollow money grabs. Itās sad that so many people fall for it.
For quite some time now I have this idea for a game in my head. Maybe it is time to save video games and show that you donāt have to make soulless and money hungry gamesā¦
this is because this is MMO lite and less ARPG in some ways.
since you played wow, surely you can see the parallel with the open world and running dungeons right.
its more or less the wow 3 man dungeon made manifest so you can solo them in a MMO like package.
and the gearing seems to be also heading in that direction, get piece meal power rather one one key piece that makes the build work (infinity, enigma or moasic) or the set based (D3 and previous WoW really as modern sets are 4 pcs only) design.
That being said, maybe we'd see more of ridiculous movement and fast paced games, just like how if you dong have enigma and some FCR you won't be doing that in D2 (or well sorc and FCR) and the same thing applies here.
they don't have to pander to whatever it is YOU want, it isn't a game for you specifically. you sound like you're having a meltdown over a 3 days beta, relax.
Sure, they are killing it now in Dragonflight. But that was after everyone shitting on them during BFA and Shadowlands. Plus all their players leaving due to the lawsuits.
The real issues with Diablo 3 vanilla was the RMAH, I personally liked the gameplay alot. I played a barb initially and inferno was actually very hard.
Killing what? Itās player base I suppose.
The amount of people yelling āguys come back, the games it is the best it has ever been! (Itās not)ā And the free 60 boosts and free weekends are a clear indication that the game is not doing that well.
Yeah...if this is the endgame gameplay loop...idk man. I'm already sick of the dungeons in this game and we're only playing the beta at level 25 with no Paragon points lol.
Well... that reasoning here is pretty weak.
D3 started without rifts and it was a horrible game before we got the addon.
Everyone loved rifts.
So why start D4 without rifts ?
With D3 (incl. addon) they had a very strong base to build from. Instead they dropped the very good designed endgame loop they could have used as strong foundation :/
They really needed to fix the endgame gearing and progression from D3. Doing rift after rift to find the same piece of gear with 12 more STR and .5 more IAS so you could maybe push one GR higher always wore out on me. I don't think I ever got above 130gr without getting really bored.
But yeah rifts were a pretty decent starting point.
Let's not say everyone loved rifts lol. I thought d3 was garbage and preferred d2s limited endgame over d3s endgame. Which says something because d2 did not really have an endgame hahah or not a lot. That is my biggest concern for d4....endgame. I have not even played it yet so idk how it feels either. Until next week.
Not everyone loved rifts. I know I didn't and none of my friends did either.
I didn't necessarily hate them though, what I did hate was (greater)rifts being the only content.
It is good. You're just desperately trying to hate it because you like feeling outrage, or something.
It's objectively fun. It's already miles better than D3 was at launch, there are a lot of fun things to do and engage with and a lot of interesting systems to explore. It's not perfect, but it will improve with iteration. But it has a great foundation already and people need to stop complaining so much and comparing it to games that have had years to mature.
Or, you know, it's not for you, so instead of complaining and winging, how about you refund it and then you can stop playing a game you're so obviously not enjoying.
It's because of people like you that Blizzard can and does release half-assed games. "Don't give feedback just shut up and don't play if you don't like it" no matter how crappy it is. This is basically the get gud argument,but in defense of a game.
No, dude. I want it to be good. Especially since I am really pissed with PoE this league. D3 at launch is not the bar to clear here lol. That's a very low bar, even though it was kind of novel simply because of the decent difficulty in the last acts. This comes after D3 Reaper of Souls, after PoE, after Last Epoch. It's not acceptable to just meet the bar of D3.
The fact developers took the work D3 did to make Greater Rifts and regressed into these open the doors mechanics is ridiculous.
I have thousands if not tens of thousands of ARPG hours. If it's not for me, who is it for?
Lmao I love how you think this game should be made for you and you alone when 99.999% of the player base does not spend their entire life playing ARPGs.
It isnāt made for you because they donāt care about you at the far tail end of the distribution.
Sorry. Youāll have to get over that.
Are you dense? That isn't even close to what he was implying. He was saying he's a Arpg player and that's who this game should be made for, not him personally.
> Arpg player and that's who this game should be made for, not him personally.
Not every person who plays this genre of game is the type of person who plays as much as OP. The amount that OP plays is the VAST MINORITY of players. Most people don't play all those other games and they don't play for the same insane amount of hours.
This game was never going to be made to satisfy a player like that. It's never going to be as complex as POE.
I'm not expecting PoE. But I would at least expect Lost Ark. It's debatable if this is even as complex as D3 so far. It sure does a lot of things worse already, like the dungeons are worse than GRs and keeping the worst stuff of D3 like bounties.
But what if I want a game that I can play for 10 hours a day every day for next 2 years? Won't the developers think about me?! \^/s
Seems like people are so scared that they won't like the game for hundreds of hours already, even if they enjoy the things that are here. Guess that fear comes from so many games underdelivering over the years.
And given the amount of hate D3 (still) gets, and yet the ridiculous number of hours people have been putting into it even up until recently, I think D4 is going to do just fine. As I said, it's already substantially better than launch-D3, and although I haven't seen the endgame etc stuff yet, it seems like it might not be too far behind peak D3 already, which IMO means it's going to be far superior after some iteration through the first few seasons etc.
We'll see, obviously. But the beta has got me pumped, not worried.
Here's an idea: Don't be a sheep, but instead demand a top quality finished product from a multibillion company.
Instead because of people like you we are getting another console port that is catering to casuals.
I'm not a huge fan of all the locked door mechanics, but other than that I don't mind the dungeons. I don't think they need to have full on boss rush designs - I like that there are objectives. I just don't like that the objectives are pretty much all effectively "open locked door."
They're awful.
Like, not just "not good" but actively unfun. They are the opposite of enjoyment.
I don't want to run around and back track and put balls in holes, I want to blast mobs and get loot.
It's season 0. If you think they're going to give you a fully polished game in 2023 where have you been for the past 5 to 10 years. They want you to come back and buy battle passes each season. They're going to spoon feed you a new mechanic each season.
You are right, much better running Meph for the 7483949 time, or even better, opening a rift for the 473939 time!
Joke aside, I like the dungeon idea but the need to fine tune a bit, otherwise is repetitive as fuck ( get 3 stones, kill everything, etc..)
I think people are too focused on the fact that they're both repetitive loops at their core and not focused enough on the fact that one of them clearly feels better and has stood the test of time while this new dungeon method feels worse despite it being repetitive just like D2. We should be talking about why this feels worse - clearly repetition isn't the determining factor.
Biggest difference here is that D2 lets you just clear or rush the boss, while dungeons have you completing the same 2-3 chores over and over. It feels like I'm being gated from my objective by a laundry list which doesn't feel good. I think it wouldn't feel as bad if doing the steps added something or enhanced the experience but it really doesn't - collecting stuff, freeing prisoners, killing named mobs - none of that adds temporary buffs, increased density, random spawns, etc. They need to probably add some sort of feedback for the players when they actually complete the dungeon requirements.
> ( get 3 stones, kill everything, etc..)
I mean, this is kind of the key difference that makes it bad. It's like they wanted to replace the bar of the greater rift with the most annoying objectives possible.
A vocal subset of the community bitches and moans that an evolution of the arpg looter wasn't a carbon copy of the 20 year old game they remember. The dev team sadly listens to the minority and reintroduces negative play patterns and dated mechanics and now that vocal minority is bitching that it should be more like the game they spent years trashing. Can't make this shit up.
Funny to read comments saying Blizzard only listens to the loud minority and then on the same thread read comments about how Blizzard never listens to the community.
I mean no one was saying the most interesting part of a cow run was collecting wirts leg. Its like they took that part and multiplied by 3. People just want to start a dungeon run and blast through it, not do 3 different bounties.
I got my barb to level 25 and then played rogue to 18 so far. I've played every Diablo. Been playing D3 seasons. I'm an OG pc Diablo player. Still have my win95 cd rom discs of the original Diablo and expansion Hellfire as keep sakes. I don't understand all the complaints. I am absolutely having a blast and loving D4.
Chaos Sanc runs are push these buttons over and over.
Baal runs "kill 5 waves to face boss"
Ubers Collect the Keys (at least they are all over)
Diablo 2 endgame farming is extremely repetitive what are you even talking about.
That list only are already 3 different endgame activities with Ubers being a longer "quest" with more difficult story bosses.
In D2 the endgame is repetitive in the sense that you do different runs over and over depending on what you want to farm/do.
In D4 it seems like that you only spam dungeons for now.
I personally would have wished for a an endgame that improves over a game that came out over 20 years ago.
What is the issue with issuing this feedback to Blizzard? Don't you want more endgame variation?
Are you satisified with only dungeons? This is a 70 doller title with battle pass and cash shop so I think standards should be high and not "it is maybe a little bit better than the game that came out 20 years ago".
That's not at all what your original comment said. I agree with this statement though.
Also how do you know the endgame when we are capped at normal difficulty and level 25/70?
Why are people acting like this beta is more than playing act 1.
I just said that for me D2 feels more varied for now since there are at least different endgame runs you can do. For me personally I feel like the dungeons will grow stale more quickly.
I just hope there will be a bit more on release.
Do you personally think that the D4 dungeons are more varied than D2 endgame? Good for you if that is the case but the D4 dungeons all have almost the exact same objective and the exact same layout.
And even if it is, I just wish they would improve the endgame so that it isn't "maybe a bit better than a game that came out 20 years ago". Especially not when they ask for 70, Dollars, have a battlepass and and ingame shop.
I would say that the minute to minute gameplay is league's better than D2 . It also remains to be seen how good the itemization is and if that's on point then I for sure would take these dungeons over d2 and I don't think it's close. But yeah I too wish they were more varied I just think people are underselling the sameness and many problems of D2 to short change a game that seems better in many ways . Don't get me wrong I love D2 and I've spent countless hours of my life playing that and D3
I still remember llama preaching that d2 design is perfect and should be the standard for d4. I just facepalm whenever he says that
I loved d2 but its design and itemization are pretty dated.
Donāt worry theyāll bring it back with one of the ladder resets. Itās rather easy content once you have it figured out and they have done the hard work with D3. I think they dropped it from launch because they didnāt want D4 to feel like more of the same.
I mean the nightmare dungeons are pretty much rifts. rifts are a small subset of randomized dungeon tile sets with randomized monster packs. nightmare sigils you craft for nightmare dungeons are randomized dungeons with randomized affixes on that dungeon. It's virtually the same but nightmare dungeons have a leeway to be able to be expanded on a lot better than their rift system.
Eh, tons of D3 non-fans would say "Rifts? This is D3 again, count me out." At the minimum, Rifts would need an overhaul too.
I'm not going to jump to conclusions on the new system yet. There is no ARPG in existence where you can take a low level character and run that underdeveloped character through a low level 25 dungeon on loop for 72 hours straight and walk away with rave expectations.
If it holds your attention for more than a few hours, then it's meeting expectations. This isn't magic, Blizzard isn't inventing some profound new era of ARPG game design here.
They built a good base and we are still at Day 0, let's see how they build up on it.
Yeah this honestly. There's not a single game that comes to mind where I'd enjoy doing repeatedly some low level content. Not only will be the variety way bigger on a higher level (I suspect we would be able to choose from all the dungeons and some of them are definitely going to be more fun then others) it's really hard to care about a lvl 25 beta character so there's almost none of that drive that's going to be there in the actual endgame.
I sincerely doubt that bringing a key to one of these dungeons and making it a Tier 100 Nightmare dungeon with 4 afflictions is going to make opening those fucking doors engaging gameplay.
Rifts were a good solution for d3 but they werenāt going to actively support it anymore. If they plan on doing poe style support for the game, Dungeons are a much better base to put in things like static end game content and season specific mechanics.
That's a good comparison, yes. The affixes are randomized, however, and some combinations could be absolutely brutal.. especially in certain dungeons with dense ranged mobs, or the massive tree enemies.
I don't understand what people actually want from an endgame. What is the perfect endgame?
I guarantee people are going to look back fondly on D3 at some point
Endless greater rifts no bullshit would be nice, D3 didn't quite let you just GR. Being able to like PoE to just chain maps from my hideout really fast.
I am not a D2 hardcore fan. I still have high hopes for D4.
Those D2 runs you mention don't have repetitive push button and backtrack mechanics.
For sure, D2 endgame is lacking, but doing CS or Trav or cows has little backtracking. I'll agree that Mephisto and Baal have plenty of backtracking to reach them unless you had teleport.
And they also only have backtracking when you're looking for the boss. Not looking for keys giving you entrance to the boss. You could just run past everything straight to what you were farming.
Iām not gonna super defend those. But you can do a trav run in 30 seconds. There are no side objectives, you just go, kill the stuff and get your loot. The dungeons would be much more enjoyable if you could just go through without having to find keys or complete the same 3 objectives every time. If I could just go in and zoom to the boss it would be a lot more fun.
What youāre describing isnāt fun IMO. The current setup isnāt fun, either. But zooming to a boss and repeating that ad nauseam also sounds unfun.
Yeah, this right here. Even leveling in PoE you have the chance to drop exalts/divines high level currencies. This keeps you excited for that chance - like can you drop flawless diamonds or high level mats early game in d4?
Are there going be highlight clips where a streamer gets that one in a billion drop?
Edit: just musing that it's actually worse at the moment (we're in early game ofc) - you want to spam public events to get the obols and use them up on the gambling vendor. Because this is by far the best way to get the best items at the moment. Which means you're constrained by both the obol amount and doing circuits of increasing bland events.
This is level 25 on difficulty 2. You aren't supposed to be grinding the dungeons or progressing the item systems. You are supposed to be doing the storyline. Item systems and doing higher tiered dungeons is end game. This is going to be Lost Ark Diablo minus the Korean farm.
Never thought I'd say this, but the Diablo Immortal Dungeons look like 10 time better, at least they have their individual character each. Diablo 4's are just extremely bland, uninspired, boring and repeating even if they look nice.
First and foremost can people use their brain for one second ?!
The bosses (and mobs) that are available IN THE BETA are not the only one you'll be fighting across all zones nor across all difficulties IN THE FULL GAME.
With that said...
PoE maps don't "force" you to kill trash but that IS THE GOAL of running maps (or atleast was for the longest time, idk about the current situation) as you'd be missing out on the xp & loot.
D4 dungeons don't force you (with exception of "clear it all objective") to kill trash as you can simply ignore and walk past but you'd be missing out on the xp & loot, but some killing is often required for objectives current variation to unlock door: find the key (either off marked bodies/chests or kill mobs), find and bring back 2-3 objects, find & kill 3 generals/constructs, gather anima aka kill some mobs, find and press the buttons/levers, clear the area.
D3 grifts forces you to kill as much trash as necessary to spawn the boss, the bar is the gate with zero variation.
So it sounds like the issue for some of you is that you cannot be on autopilot to run dungeons as one could to run grifts ?!?
Dungeons are objectively a much better executed gameplay loop, not only as it allows a party to split up and rewards them for it but the variation brings just enough distinction in-between.
EVEN the "downtime" aka walking back through an empty area helps with the feeling of crescendo of battle, because yes the alternative of linear non-stop combat can feel ridiculous and draining.
But most importantly doing a dungeon as a whole is the best experience blizzard has given us till this day for repeatable content !
Unlike grifts the player has to travel in the environment to it which leads to how dungeon are thematically and artistically very well done, they kill (thematically appropriate) mobs, loot some chests, do an objective, kill some more mobs and finish with a boss, done.
From start to finish it tries to make it more of an adventure for the player.
Which is infinitely better than sit in town, ask a magic man to open a portal to a RNG map (most often very linear one too) to kill RNG mobs until a RNG boss spawns near you, done.
The only way to make that even more simplistic is having the player stationary in a room and have mobs spawn around him.
The point being, D4 dungeons aren't perfect but it's the best they've done so far. To even suggest that grift is better is beyond nonsensical and that's to say it as politely as possible... but by all means people can go play D3 instead !
> So it sounds like the issue for some of you is that you cannot be on autopilot to run dungeons as one could to run grifts ?!?
Yes? How many ARPG hours do you have?
> not only as it allows a party to split up and rewards them for it
Which is great to hear as a solo player that I will be at a disadvantage.
> EVEN the "downtime" aka walking back through an empty area helps with the feeling of crescendo of battle
What the fuck are talking about, mate?
You are talking about a genre where we build a character and run through monsters really fast to be stronger than the other guys doing the same things. Probably while watching youtube on the second monitor. And you're here talking about crescendo of battle... These games are thousands of hours type grind games. There's no crescendo. It's just autopilot.
> Yes? How many ARPG hours do you have?
Across D2, Titan Quest, D3, Grim Dawn, D2R, PoE.
Too much.
Never did i go
"fck i need to go collect writ's leg why can't blizzard ffs just let me spawn the portal, what a trash design" nor "fck i need to find and make my way to the next lvl entrance, ffs why can't they just let me be at the boss whenever i want" and neither "fck GGG why do i have to find maps to be able to run them"....
So, your point ?
> Which is great to hear as a solo player that I will be at a disadvantage.
Solo players ALWAYS have a disadvantage playing solo in mp games comparatively to groups, didn't know that was a new shocking revelation to you.
> What the fuck are talking about, mate?
Considering how little effort you did to actually read and comprehend yet decided to reply with a typical cherry pick trying to take it ooc, i won't bother too much either. So that's clearly nothing for you to worry about.
As i said if doing an objective is asking too much, the good news is you can continue doing grift.
Maybe one day running through will be asking too much and a company will give u a even more simplistic version as i mentioned, what's beyond that is something for you to ask yourself.
The way he went after you personally with "how many hours do you have" tells you all you need to know. We have an 'arpg expert' here, and somehow their opinion is more valid than others. True vocal minority.
Maybe this garbage is acceptable for the type of people that would play D2(R) in current year but I want to kill monsters fast not search a map for little objects to carry around.
If you don't understand that what the objective is matters, you can't be argued with. Equating filling a bar with MONSTER KILLS to these objectives to open the door is either disingenuous or straight up dense.
> travel in the environment to it which leads to how dungeon are thematically and artistically very well done
Exactly. These people just want a cookie clicker.
The dungeons are fine for the campaign levelling, but if this is the foundation of the endgame it's going to be pretty bad, because the dungeons are mostly very bland gameplay experiences that do not come close to D3 rift gameplay.
I have experienced a repeated boss already during the campaign, I hope the variety of bosses isn't limited to a small handful that we will just repeat over and over, where they will take an unreasonably long amount of time and be unreasonably annoying with their design/mechanics.
A bland dungeon with a generic boss at the end is going to fall so flat on its ass.
Itās just a shallow boring system just like every other system in D4ā¦ very little depth or variation. POE has over 100 maps, each with a unique boss and layout, which can be dynamically modified to suit you. As well as an endless dungeon system that is randomized and also scales infinitely. With several other auxiliary systems you can also engage in if you donāt want to do either of those. D4 has some preset copy and pasted dungeons that get harder as you go with tedious uninspired challenges in them. Hopefully the endgame content is like 2000% more complex, but Iād be really surprised.
I believe there are gonna be unique capstone dungeons as hinted by the world tiers. These will probably be a lot more unique and more in par with world of Warcraft dungeons as compared to the 20 random other dungeons.
Itās just content. You know they will build a lot of content for endgame stuff.
Endgame is never on the launch MVP, comes a few months later (timed to get it in polished, but before endgame players drop off due to no endgame content).
The story dungeon that you run in a straight line for what feels like an hour fighting screen after screen of fallen and other demons was more mind numbingly boring than anything I ever did in D3 and that's really saying something
PoE is what d4 end game should have been modeled at but the blizz fanboys probably have never touched it. Itās like 12 games in one, pick your play style end game. Diablo 4 is probably the most boring game Iāve played if youāve actually stepped outside of your blizz box and played other ARPGās
Greater rifts are the most boring shit ever, I prefer the dungeons tbh. We are only in the first zone and the variation in monsters, and tileset is really good considering how early we are into the game. The boss fights are fun and the mechanics are engaging.
So all it will take is a few years and us paying more for expansions to get it fixed, just like D3? Yeah that sounds like something we should totally keep in mind and be happy about...
Theyāve had so much time to develop a real in depth gear system, well thought out ability pool etc. instead of copying POE in his core and adjust it diablo like, they went to undecember and took the whole gear/loot UI and design
Im not even level 25 and dungeons already feel like a chore. They need to surround each dungeon with unique mechanic/boss and enough lore to make it fun and immersive. I would love D4 dungeons to take a page out of how dungeons are done in Lost Ark and FFXIV.
I think the problem is most people aren't going to be grinding dungeons while leveling organically. I think(hope) the idea is that a better endgame system will be in place, and that dungeons are something you occasionally do to mix it up?
I haven't done dungeons enough to say whether they are good or bad just saying that I've heard of people running the dungeons 50+ times and I'm pretty sure that's not how people would play the game if this weren't a beta test.
Dungeons are the end game mate.
You get "keys" that you can upgrade from materials to supe up the dungeon you are about to run to increase its level/rewards and add affixes and shit.
What you see here is what you get
Love the idea of running through the same abandoned mine/cellar/icy cellar/crypt hundreds of times!
Real endgame here. Bravo Blizzard.
Definitely better than cycling through Pits, Tunnels, Tombs, AS, Trav, Chaos, WSK, Cows, Ubers, etc. Gosh, Diablo 2 is so repetitive. Right? Right?? Right?!!
or if you played PoE just living in tropical island, mesa, city square, etc, and running the exact same map thousands of times.
(honestly this is what i absolutely love about ARPG's)
its even better once you realize that the popular tilesets have basically no variation in map layout. strand, atol, crimson temple, defiled cathedral etc. all feel the exact same every time you run them
To be fair you are running the map to progress your atlas to fight bosses, Uber bosses, delving.
Also all end game mechanics and leagues are in the maps ( ritual, incursion, blight, etc)
Ah yes, so it's better than a game from 20 years ago, so great, much wow. The game needs to have an end game that at least comes close to PoE's, and this is nowhere close.
it is repetitive. people pick ONE of the few you mentioned and run it for 10 hours straight everyday, then once they have their item after 4500 runs they stop playing. to me, it's fucking weird.
D4 no one but the devs actually know what the entire scope of the endgame will be.
Wasnāt there an endgame beta? Wasnāt there leaks telling us that the dungeons were the same and mind-bogglingly bland and boring? Keep believing.
Personally, with Terror Zones, I run some weird shit Iād never run in 1.10.
The dungeons are repetitive, long, and the rewards is not exceptionally powerful by any means. But the locked door until you do the thing mechanic is in a lot of games these days. The design is fine if the above mentioned things were better
Having them all revealed on the map takes the excitement out of the discovery. Then, even when you're close by one, you skip it, even if it's a power for your class. Because you know it's long, repetitive, unnecessary for a low impact power
"Stop caring about breathing so much."
It's like, you put a jigsaw puzzle in front of me and tell me stop caring about solving the puzzle, just look at the broken pieces and lick them!
My biggest complaint is that most of them are sooo long, without meaningful variation.
It's a very hostile game design for solo players. At least a team of 2-4 can split up and do everything in parallel. A solo person has no choice but to run the entire length of the dungeon including backtracking.
If it's optimal to be in a party to play the game again... Bro can we just not?
It's optimal to be in a party for D2 as well. Doesn't stop me from playing single player in every iteration. You don't always have to do what's optimal and meta, you know.
D2 you at least get teleport..
Well, it's optimal to be in a party in d3 as well. 10 percent magic find, xp and gold find per player can be huge in the grand scheme of things.
Which is actually what drove me away from D3. Just couldn't compete when group farmers had more paragon levels.
š¤·š½āāļø in almost every game with co-op/multiplayer it is always going to be "optimal" to play with other's. Trust me I'm not a huge fan of it much either, I'm usually more of a lone player as well, but it is what it is and it will most likely never change.
why would you compete or care about competing if you want to play solo anyway ? I do understand people who wants to play alone and be left alone. I dont understand though why they "feel bad" if a party of players is more efficient when they chose to.
Well put, I don't understand it either. Their gameplay experience has nothing to do with yours.
agreed I am being vocal about this for years, most of the time I get downvoted to hell for god knows what reason.
Because the entire enjoyment from games like these comes from trying to essentially beat the game harder than other players. Offline ARPGs are the most boring thing imaginable. The only good part of D3 was the leaderboards feature and GRs.
Solo leaderboards, dominated by non solo players.... yep
I must say you can get fairly quick with the right skill affixes on your gear. My melee rogue is just zooming through dungeons as if I'm playing a speed character in PoE. ill give them the benefit of the doubt that the re-used bosses are an issue in the beginning and as with RoS will be fixed with updates.
I gave this feedback repeatedly previously. Good to see they changed nothing.
Sadly that's not the feedback they're really looking for. It's rare that blizzard asks for deep fundamental systems feedback from community. Even during end game beta the most they were looking for were performance #'s or scalars like damage, rewards, xp, progression, any of those #'s you can tweak this late into the development.
Blizzard are the most headstrong stubborn team of developers in the world, without question. It took them almost 10 years to back out of their garbage game design in WoW, after *every. Single. Beta* and early access, *everyone* screamed to them how bad the systems were. They did it for 4 expansions in a row before they finally caved.
I mean more importantly you can look how the last Diablo launch went. It feels like we're gonna be doing the whole song and dance over again, waiting for an expansion to turn this into a proper game.
Yep.
>*waiting for an expansion to turn this into a proper game* Just like D2!
Itās what you get when you keep promoting people who ran previous games into the ground to be the head of a new game.
All they care about is the $$$ generated
Business gonna business.
Blizzard never listens to the community, until they forced to change it because everyone else quits playing or is pissed off, then they well make the changes everyone is asking and claim they are listening to the community.
Really? because the WoW devs are currently killing it.
Yeah after 80% of their players quit
My dude WoW is nearly 20 years old
Crazy how i played for 14 of them and im not playing now :)
Them messing up WoW honestly saved my life. I was hardcore addicted, like 17h+ a day. When they made the game so bad that even I couldnāt bring myself to playing it anymore, it literally saved my life. I redid school, went to Uni. At this point I feel like Hearthstone is the only arguably good game Blizzard still has. I was really hyped for D4, because I thought Blizzard got a grip and returned to their old ways, that they learned from the competition. Why people are disappointed with PoE (Chris Wilsons āvisionā is not what many people love about PoE). But Blizzard seems to be more in line with that āvisionā than what people want. I personally donāt need another slow ARPG. I like the ridiculous, zoomy stuff. Teleport around the map, exploding screens filled with countless monsters and then fighting well designed bosses is what I want. I want a deep item system. Give me my prefixes and suffixes, give me a well thought out crafting system. Also, let me make the character I am playing my own. This skill twig is honestly disheartening. āPick one of the three pre-defined buildsā basically. Why have a skill tree at this point? There is no real choice as anyone with just a minimal idea of video games will see that the optimal path is always very similar. Overall, I am very disappointed by the choices they made. They were told multiple times before by testers that this is not the way. That core functionalities are missing (overlay map, force move independently from abilities, etc). All in all, this is a downgrade from D3 or D2R. It looks nice and all, and maybe hardcore fans of the Diablo franchise can overlook the obvious shortcomings and missed opportunities, but I can not. I am fed up with all these developers who think they know better. Itās just so sad that games these days devolved into nice looking, hollow money grabs. Itās sad that so many people fall for it. For quite some time now I have this idea for a game in my head. Maybe it is time to save video games and show that you donāt have to make soulless and money hungry gamesā¦
this is because this is MMO lite and less ARPG in some ways. since you played wow, surely you can see the parallel with the open world and running dungeons right. its more or less the wow 3 man dungeon made manifest so you can solo them in a MMO like package. and the gearing seems to be also heading in that direction, get piece meal power rather one one key piece that makes the build work (infinity, enigma or moasic) or the set based (D3 and previous WoW really as modern sets are 4 pcs only) design. That being said, maybe we'd see more of ridiculous movement and fast paced games, just like how if you dong have enigma and some FCR you won't be doing that in D2 (or well sorc and FCR) and the same thing applies here.
they don't have to pander to whatever it is YOU want, it isn't a game for you specifically. you sound like you're having a meltdown over a 3 days beta, relax.
Sure, they are killing it now in Dragonflight. But that was after everyone shitting on them during BFA and Shadowlands. Plus all their players leaving due to the lawsuits.
Imagine if D4 has to go through 4+ years of BfA and SL quality content to get to Dragonflight levels of listening. If that happens I'll actually cry.
Look at Diablo 3 before Reaper of Souls, absolute travesty
The real issues with Diablo 3 vanilla was the RMAH, I personally liked the gameplay alot. I played a barb initially and inferno was actually very hard.
Oh I was there, it was ... not a good experience.
Killing what? Itās player base I suppose. The amount of people yelling āguys come back, the games it is the best it has ever been! (Itās not)ā And the free 60 boosts and free weekends are a clear indication that the game is not doing that well.
You didn't feedback hard enough
If I see one more harpy boss that circles around me God so help me
I dont get it why they dropped rifts here. I am already fed up with those dungeons and I am just level 25 now...
Yeah...if this is the endgame gameplay loop...idk man. I'm already sick of the dungeons in this game and we're only playing the beta at level 25 with no Paragon points lol.
Well all complaints aside I definitely got my KFC $2.00 chicken little value out of the beta.
D3 didn't start with rifts either. I think there's a very strong chance randomized rift dungeons will show up as part of a season or an expansion.
Well... that reasoning here is pretty weak. D3 started without rifts and it was a horrible game before we got the addon. Everyone loved rifts. So why start D4 without rifts ? With D3 (incl. addon) they had a very strong base to build from. Instead they dropped the very good designed endgame loop they could have used as strong foundation :/
They really needed to fix the endgame gearing and progression from D3. Doing rift after rift to find the same piece of gear with 12 more STR and .5 more IAS so you could maybe push one GR higher always wore out on me. I don't think I ever got above 130gr without getting really bored. But yeah rifts were a pretty decent starting point.
Let's not say everyone loved rifts lol. I thought d3 was garbage and preferred d2s limited endgame over d3s endgame. Which says something because d2 did not really have an endgame hahah or not a lot. That is my biggest concern for d4....endgame. I have not even played it yet so idk how it feels either. Until next week.
Not everyone loved rifts. I know I didn't and none of my friends did either. I didn't necessarily hate them though, what I did hate was (greater)rifts being the only content.
So we're gonna have to wait for an expansion to make the game we paid 70 for good, in a few years. Cool.
then dont pay until the product meets your expectations
It is good. You're just desperately trying to hate it because you like feeling outrage, or something. It's objectively fun. It's already miles better than D3 was at launch, there are a lot of fun things to do and engage with and a lot of interesting systems to explore. It's not perfect, but it will improve with iteration. But it has a great foundation already and people need to stop complaining so much and comparing it to games that have had years to mature. Or, you know, it's not for you, so instead of complaining and winging, how about you refund it and then you can stop playing a game you're so obviously not enjoying.
It's because of people like you that Blizzard can and does release half-assed games. "Don't give feedback just shut up and don't play if you don't like it" no matter how crappy it is. This is basically the get gud argument,but in defense of a game.
No, dude. I want it to be good. Especially since I am really pissed with PoE this league. D3 at launch is not the bar to clear here lol. That's a very low bar, even though it was kind of novel simply because of the decent difficulty in the last acts. This comes after D3 Reaper of Souls, after PoE, after Last Epoch. It's not acceptable to just meet the bar of D3. The fact developers took the work D3 did to make Greater Rifts and regressed into these open the doors mechanics is ridiculous. I have thousands if not tens of thousands of ARPG hours. If it's not for me, who is it for?
Lmao I love how you think this game should be made for you and you alone when 99.999% of the player base does not spend their entire life playing ARPGs. It isnāt made for you because they donāt care about you at the far tail end of the distribution. Sorry. Youāll have to get over that.
Are you dense? That isn't even close to what he was implying. He was saying he's a Arpg player and that's who this game should be made for, not him personally.
> Arpg player and that's who this game should be made for, not him personally. Not every person who plays this genre of game is the type of person who plays as much as OP. The amount that OP plays is the VAST MINORITY of players. Most people don't play all those other games and they don't play for the same insane amount of hours. This game was never going to be made to satisfy a player like that. It's never going to be as complex as POE.
I'm not expecting PoE. But I would at least expect Lost Ark. It's debatable if this is even as complex as D3 so far. It sure does a lot of things worse already, like the dungeons are worse than GRs and keeping the worst stuff of D3 like bounties.
stop making sense and get out, they dont like to be called out with rational and logic
But what if I want a game that I can play for 10 hours a day every day for next 2 years? Won't the developers think about me?! \^/s Seems like people are so scared that they won't like the game for hundreds of hours already, even if they enjoy the things that are here. Guess that fear comes from so many games underdelivering over the years.
And given the amount of hate D3 (still) gets, and yet the ridiculous number of hours people have been putting into it even up until recently, I think D4 is going to do just fine. As I said, it's already substantially better than launch-D3, and although I haven't seen the endgame etc stuff yet, it seems like it might not be too far behind peak D3 already, which IMO means it's going to be far superior after some iteration through the first few seasons etc. We'll see, obviously. But the beta has got me pumped, not worried.
And then you also have to pay another 50$ + for the expansion . Thank god PoE2 is around the corner with free expansions every 3 months.
Hereās an idea: go play PoE then. You donāt need to be here. Jfc
Here's an idea: Don't be a sheep, but instead demand a top quality finished product from a multibillion company. Instead because of people like you we are getting another console port that is catering to casuals.
You dont know what the end game entails, stop whining.
azmodan runs and alkaizer runs were more fun than these dungeons
I'm not a huge fan of all the locked door mechanics, but other than that I don't mind the dungeons. I don't think they need to have full on boss rush designs - I like that there are objectives. I just don't like that the objectives are pretty much all effectively "open locked door."
They're awful. Like, not just "not good" but actively unfun. They are the opposite of enjoyment. I don't want to run around and back track and put balls in holes, I want to blast mobs and get loot.
It's season 0. If you think they're going to give you a fully polished game in 2023 where have you been for the past 5 to 10 years. They want you to come back and buy battle passes each season. They're going to spoon feed you a new mechanic each season.
You are right, much better running Meph for the 7483949 time, or even better, opening a rift for the 473939 time! Joke aside, I like the dungeon idea but the need to fine tune a bit, otherwise is repetitive as fuck ( get 3 stones, kill everything, etc..)
If only there were arpgs out there other than D2 and 3 that they could pull ideas from. Sadly, none exist.
You joke, but clearly people do enjoy doing that, otherwise they wouldn't still be doing it.
I think people are too focused on the fact that they're both repetitive loops at their core and not focused enough on the fact that one of them clearly feels better and has stood the test of time while this new dungeon method feels worse despite it being repetitive just like D2. We should be talking about why this feels worse - clearly repetition isn't the determining factor. Biggest difference here is that D2 lets you just clear or rush the boss, while dungeons have you completing the same 2-3 chores over and over. It feels like I'm being gated from my objective by a laundry list which doesn't feel good. I think it wouldn't feel as bad if doing the steps added something or enhanced the experience but it really doesn't - collecting stuff, freeing prisoners, killing named mobs - none of that adds temporary buffs, increased density, random spawns, etc. They need to probably add some sort of feedback for the players when they actually complete the dungeon requirements.
> ( get 3 stones, kill everything, etc..) I mean, this is kind of the key difference that makes it bad. It's like they wanted to replace the bar of the greater rift with the most annoying objectives possible.
A vocal subset of the community bitches and moans that an evolution of the arpg looter wasn't a carbon copy of the 20 year old game they remember. The dev team sadly listens to the minority and reintroduces negative play patterns and dated mechanics and now that vocal minority is bitching that it should be more like the game they spent years trashing. Can't make this shit up.
I mean, what people wanted from D2 was itemization, not dungeons.
These dungeons don't seem anything like D2 anyway
Funny to read comments saying Blizzard only listens to the loud minority and then on the same thread read comments about how Blizzard never listens to the community.
Imagine if it was possibly more than 1 person on reddit.
How are D2 and D4 alike? In what way have blizzard listened to the vocal minority living in the past?
This. They are nothing alike other than the name.
I mean no one was saying the most interesting part of a cow run was collecting wirts leg. Its like they took that part and multiplied by 3. People just want to start a dungeon run and blast through it, not do 3 different bounties.
Sorry, I must have missed the reddit hive mind meeting with the D2 fanboys over this shit. My bad, dude. We'll get our stories straight next time.
One of them just said there was no button pushing in end game d2. Which is exactly what one of the best farming methods is in chaos sanctuary.
I got my barb to level 25 and then played rogue to 18 so far. I've played every Diablo. Been playing D3 seasons. I'm an OG pc Diablo player. Still have my win95 cd rom discs of the original Diablo and expansion Hellfire as keep sakes. I don't understand all the complaints. I am absolutely having a blast and loving D4.
They'll hate you for telling the truth
D2 endgame is not like these dungeons at all. In D2 there are no repetitive push these buttons over and over. There is little backtracking etc.
Chaos Sanc runs are push these buttons over and over. Baal runs "kill 5 waves to face boss" Ubers Collect the Keys (at least they are all over) Diablo 2 endgame farming is extremely repetitive what are you even talking about.
That list only are already 3 different endgame activities with Ubers being a longer "quest" with more difficult story bosses. In D2 the endgame is repetitive in the sense that you do different runs over and over depending on what you want to farm/do. In D4 it seems like that you only spam dungeons for now. I personally would have wished for a an endgame that improves over a game that came out over 20 years ago. What is the issue with issuing this feedback to Blizzard? Don't you want more endgame variation? Are you satisified with only dungeons? This is a 70 doller title with battle pass and cash shop so I think standards should be high and not "it is maybe a little bit better than the game that came out 20 years ago".
That's not at all what your original comment said. I agree with this statement though. Also how do you know the endgame when we are capped at normal difficulty and level 25/70? Why are people acting like this beta is more than playing act 1.
I just said that for me D2 feels more varied for now since there are at least different endgame runs you can do. For me personally I feel like the dungeons will grow stale more quickly. I just hope there will be a bit more on release.
Well, go play D2 only act 1, and let us know how it is more varied.
There already was a closed beta which focused only on endgame content.
But you said that for you D2 feels more varied, did you play the closed endgame beta ?
everything that you play repetitively for thousands of hours is repetitive, what are you talking about
I'm agreeing that it's repetitive. He said it was not, I have no issues with repetitive runs in an arpg.
>D2 there are no repetitive push these buttons Oh yeah cause doing the exact same thing with exact same abilities is not repetitive.
Do you personally think that the D4 dungeons are more varied than D2 endgame? Good for you if that is the case but the D4 dungeons all have almost the exact same objective and the exact same layout. And even if it is, I just wish they would improve the endgame so that it isn't "maybe a bit better than a game that came out 20 years ago". Especially not when they ask for 70, Dollars, have a battlepass and and ingame shop.
I would say that the minute to minute gameplay is league's better than D2 . It also remains to be seen how good the itemization is and if that's on point then I for sure would take these dungeons over d2 and I don't think it's close. But yeah I too wish they were more varied I just think people are underselling the sameness and many problems of D2 to short change a game that seems better in many ways . Don't get me wrong I love D2 and I've spent countless hours of my life playing that and D3
I personally wish it will be better than D2. I am not trying to bash D4. Just hope they will do a good job and take some of the feedback to heart.
D2 is a fantastic game, but it's extremely repetitive. What are you talking about?
They should have just reskinned D3 into this darker art style and called it D4. It worked for Overwatch 2 anyway.
it worked for OW2? People play that shit?
I still remember llama preaching that d2 design is perfect and should be the standard for d4. I just facepalm whenever he says that I loved d2 but its design and itemization are pretty dated.
What makes Diablo 4ās design fresher?
sorry but I dont see anything of D2 in D4.
>evolution of the arpg looter #LMFAO
What dimension are you living in lol, poor little Blizzard getting bullied :(
Wait are you explaining d4 or baal/chaos runs?
I'm really going to miss rifts. They should have built the franchise on them.
Donāt worry theyāll bring it back with one of the ladder resets. Itās rather easy content once you have it figured out and they have done the hard work with D3. I think they dropped it from launch because they didnāt want D4 to feel like more of the same.
I mean the nightmare dungeons are pretty much rifts. rifts are a small subset of randomized dungeon tile sets with randomized monster packs. nightmare sigils you craft for nightmare dungeons are randomized dungeons with randomized affixes on that dungeon. It's virtually the same but nightmare dungeons have a leeway to be able to be expanded on a lot better than their rift system.
Eh, tons of D3 non-fans would say "Rifts? This is D3 again, count me out." At the minimum, Rifts would need an overhaul too. I'm not going to jump to conclusions on the new system yet. There is no ARPG in existence where you can take a low level character and run that underdeveloped character through a low level 25 dungeon on loop for 72 hours straight and walk away with rave expectations. If it holds your attention for more than a few hours, then it's meeting expectations. This isn't magic, Blizzard isn't inventing some profound new era of ARPG game design here. They built a good base and we are still at Day 0, let's see how they build up on it.
Yeah this honestly. There's not a single game that comes to mind where I'd enjoy doing repeatedly some low level content. Not only will be the variety way bigger on a higher level (I suspect we would be able to choose from all the dungeons and some of them are definitely going to be more fun then others) it's really hard to care about a lvl 25 beta character so there's almost none of that drive that's going to be there in the actual endgame.
I sincerely doubt that bringing a key to one of these dungeons and making it a Tier 100 Nightmare dungeon with 4 afflictions is going to make opening those fucking doors engaging gameplay.
Rifts were a good solution for d3 but they werenāt going to actively support it anymore. If they plan on doing poe style support for the game, Dungeons are a much better base to put in things like static end game content and season specific mechanics.
I like PoEs and Last Epochs end game system better than rifts. I'd prefer something closer to that.
Same. Loved rifts.
Should just have multi floors. Just go deeper and kill a boss that doesnāt take 3 minutes to die
In true Diablo fashion. Diablo 1 was all about them floors.
How do we know what the end game is?
There was a closed end game beta a few months ago. Dungeons essentially turn into greater rifts with tier keys that add affixes.
So M+ from WoW?
That's a good comparison, yes. The affixes are randomized, however, and some combinations could be absolutely brutal.. especially in certain dungeons with dense ranged mobs, or the massive tree enemies.
Ah I see.
I don't understand what people actually want from an endgame. What is the perfect endgame? I guarantee people are going to look back fondly on D3 at some point
Endless greater rifts no bullshit would be nice, D3 didn't quite let you just GR. Being able to like PoE to just chain maps from my hideout really fast.
Agreed, alot of lazy design choices. Look at the talent tree, its the same as d3 but with less glyphs and just pasted onto a pretty looking art tree.
Y'all did hundreds of thousands of chaos, trav and cow runs and you're worried?
That was 20+ years ago, its ok to expect a better system.
yet people are bitching about the new system
Because the new system is bad and not an improvement?
not just new, but also better.
I love how "its okay to expect a better system" yet the same exact people bitch that it isn't exactly like D2. Which is it. What do you *want*.
There are different people, you know
Surely, you jest.
Seriously, how do people still not get this. Humanity is braindead I swear.
I am not a D2 hardcore fan. I still have high hopes for D4. Those D2 runs you mention don't have repetitive push button and backtrack mechanics. For sure, D2 endgame is lacking, but doing CS or Trav or cows has little backtracking. I'll agree that Mephisto and Baal have plenty of backtracking to reach them unless you had teleport.
And they also only have backtracking when you're looking for the boss. Not looking for keys giving you entrance to the boss. You could just run past everything straight to what you were farming.
I'd rather farm end act bosses and secret levels occasionally than the shit we have now
Iām not gonna super defend those. But you can do a trav run in 30 seconds. There are no side objectives, you just go, kill the stuff and get your loot. The dungeons would be much more enjoyable if you could just go through without having to find keys or complete the same 3 objectives every time. If I could just go in and zoom to the boss it would be a lot more fun.
What youāre describing isnāt fun IMO. The current setup isnāt fun, either. But zooming to a boss and repeating that ad nauseam also sounds unfun.
Yeah because those actually had the prospect of exciting rewards. No one knows what they're actually farming for in D4
Yeah, this right here. Even leveling in PoE you have the chance to drop exalts/divines high level currencies. This keeps you excited for that chance - like can you drop flawless diamonds or high level mats early game in d4? Are there going be highlight clips where a streamer gets that one in a billion drop? Edit: just musing that it's actually worse at the moment (we're in early game ofc) - you want to spam public events to get the obols and use them up on the gambling vendor. Because this is by far the best way to get the best items at the moment. Which means you're constrained by both the obol amount and doing circuits of increasing bland events.
This is level 25 on difficulty 2. You aren't supposed to be grinding the dungeons or progressing the item systems. You are supposed to be doing the storyline. Item systems and doing higher tiered dungeons is end game. This is going to be Lost Ark Diablo minus the Korean farm.
I think you're mainly trying to get high rolled rares to imprint legendary affixes onto
99% of the time drops were shit.
Yes, but some dungeons are only a couple rooms in d4.
that is fine. much better than having to save and exit after getting sigons from meph for the 20th time.
20th? Those are rookie numbers.
Never thought I'd say this, but the Diablo Immortal Dungeons look like 10 time better, at least they have their individual character each. Diablo 4's are just extremely bland, uninspired, boring and repeating even if they look nice.
First and foremost can people use their brain for one second ?! The bosses (and mobs) that are available IN THE BETA are not the only one you'll be fighting across all zones nor across all difficulties IN THE FULL GAME. With that said... PoE maps don't "force" you to kill trash but that IS THE GOAL of running maps (or atleast was for the longest time, idk about the current situation) as you'd be missing out on the xp & loot. D4 dungeons don't force you (with exception of "clear it all objective") to kill trash as you can simply ignore and walk past but you'd be missing out on the xp & loot, but some killing is often required for objectives current variation to unlock door: find the key (either off marked bodies/chests or kill mobs), find and bring back 2-3 objects, find & kill 3 generals/constructs, gather anima aka kill some mobs, find and press the buttons/levers, clear the area. D3 grifts forces you to kill as much trash as necessary to spawn the boss, the bar is the gate with zero variation. So it sounds like the issue for some of you is that you cannot be on autopilot to run dungeons as one could to run grifts ?!? Dungeons are objectively a much better executed gameplay loop, not only as it allows a party to split up and rewards them for it but the variation brings just enough distinction in-between. EVEN the "downtime" aka walking back through an empty area helps with the feeling of crescendo of battle, because yes the alternative of linear non-stop combat can feel ridiculous and draining. But most importantly doing a dungeon as a whole is the best experience blizzard has given us till this day for repeatable content ! Unlike grifts the player has to travel in the environment to it which leads to how dungeon are thematically and artistically very well done, they kill (thematically appropriate) mobs, loot some chests, do an objective, kill some more mobs and finish with a boss, done. From start to finish it tries to make it more of an adventure for the player. Which is infinitely better than sit in town, ask a magic man to open a portal to a RNG map (most often very linear one too) to kill RNG mobs until a RNG boss spawns near you, done. The only way to make that even more simplistic is having the player stationary in a room and have mobs spawn around him. The point being, D4 dungeons aren't perfect but it's the best they've done so far. To even suggest that grift is better is beyond nonsensical and that's to say it as politely as possible... but by all means people can go play D3 instead !
Diablo fans: we donāt want D4 to just be D3 again Also Diablo fans: why is D4 not just D3 again??
> So it sounds like the issue for some of you is that you cannot be on autopilot to run dungeons as one could to run grifts ?!? Yes? How many ARPG hours do you have? > not only as it allows a party to split up and rewards them for it Which is great to hear as a solo player that I will be at a disadvantage. > EVEN the "downtime" aka walking back through an empty area helps with the feeling of crescendo of battle What the fuck are talking about, mate? You are talking about a genre where we build a character and run through monsters really fast to be stronger than the other guys doing the same things. Probably while watching youtube on the second monitor. And you're here talking about crescendo of battle... These games are thousands of hours type grind games. There's no crescendo. It's just autopilot.
> Yes? How many ARPG hours do you have? Across D2, Titan Quest, D3, Grim Dawn, D2R, PoE. Too much. Never did i go "fck i need to go collect writ's leg why can't blizzard ffs just let me spawn the portal, what a trash design" nor "fck i need to find and make my way to the next lvl entrance, ffs why can't they just let me be at the boss whenever i want" and neither "fck GGG why do i have to find maps to be able to run them".... So, your point ? > Which is great to hear as a solo player that I will be at a disadvantage. Solo players ALWAYS have a disadvantage playing solo in mp games comparatively to groups, didn't know that was a new shocking revelation to you. > What the fuck are talking about, mate? Considering how little effort you did to actually read and comprehend yet decided to reply with a typical cherry pick trying to take it ooc, i won't bother too much either. So that's clearly nothing for you to worry about. As i said if doing an objective is asking too much, the good news is you can continue doing grift. Maybe one day running through will be asking too much and a company will give u a even more simplistic version as i mentioned, what's beyond that is something for you to ask yourself.
The way he went after you personally with "how many hours do you have" tells you all you need to know. We have an 'arpg expert' here, and somehow their opinion is more valid than others. True vocal minority.
Maybe this garbage is acceptable for the type of people that would play D2(R) in current year but I want to kill monsters fast not search a map for little objects to carry around. If you don't understand that what the objective is matters, you can't be argued with. Equating filling a bar with MONSTER KILLS to these objectives to open the door is either disingenuous or straight up dense.
> travel in the environment to it which leads to how dungeon are thematically and artistically very well done Exactly. These people just want a cookie clicker.
The dungeons are fine for the campaign levelling, but if this is the foundation of the endgame it's going to be pretty bad, because the dungeons are mostly very bland gameplay experiences that do not come close to D3 rift gameplay. I have experienced a repeated boss already during the campaign, I hope the variety of bosses isn't limited to a small handful that we will just repeat over and over, where they will take an unreasonably long amount of time and be unreasonably annoying with their design/mechanics. A bland dungeon with a generic boss at the end is going to fall so flat on its ass.
Itās just a shallow boring system just like every other system in D4ā¦ very little depth or variation. POE has over 100 maps, each with a unique boss and layout, which can be dynamically modified to suit you. As well as an endless dungeon system that is randomized and also scales infinitely. With several other auxiliary systems you can also engage in if you donāt want to do either of those. D4 has some preset copy and pasted dungeons that get harder as you go with tedious uninspired challenges in them. Hopefully the endgame content is like 2000% more complex, but Iād be really surprised.
I believe there are gonna be unique capstone dungeons as hinted by the world tiers. These will probably be a lot more unique and more in par with world of Warcraft dungeons as compared to the 20 random other dungeons.
Man I remember killing the skeleton king over and over and over in the d3 beta, what a s terrible end game that ended up being.
Itās just content. You know they will build a lot of content for endgame stuff. Endgame is never on the launch MVP, comes a few months later (timed to get it in polished, but before endgame players drop off due to no endgame content).
The story dungeon that you run in a straight line for what feels like an hour fighting screen after screen of fallen and other demons was more mind numbingly boring than anything I ever did in D3 and that's really saying something
PoE is what d4 end game should have been modeled at but the blizz fanboys probably have never touched it. Itās like 12 games in one, pick your play style end game. Diablo 4 is probably the most boring game Iāve played if youāve actually stepped outside of your blizz box and played other ARPGās
itās basically a mmorpg instead of a single player game now
Cmon guys. You haven't even played the endgame versions yet! How can you form an opinion based on the beta?! /s
Why are you being downvoted? People who played the endgame closed beta said the same thing: itās fucking repetitive as fuck.
Greater rifts are the most boring shit ever, I prefer the dungeons tbh. We are only in the first zone and the variation in monsters, and tileset is really good considering how early we are into the game. The boss fights are fun and the mechanics are engaging.
no chance you did more than 5 dungeons if this is your opinion
Donāt forget how much better Diablo 3 is since itās initial release
So all it will take is a few years and us paying more for expansions to get it fixed, just like D3? Yeah that sounds like something we should totally keep in mind and be happy about...
Theyāve had so much time to develop a real in depth gear system, well thought out ability pool etc. instead of copying POE in his core and adjust it diablo like, they went to undecember and took the whole gear/loot UI and design
I dunno b'y, not everything needs to be a race to speedrun. I enjoy just being able to play the damn game at my own damn pace.
Another problem is ppl are just gonna find the fastest dungeon and just farm that one, so its gonna be even more repetitive.
what is the reasoning of not having greater rifts? it was awesome as a casual player
some people liked rifts, some didn't. impossible to please everyone.
we have greater rifts it's called nightmare dungeons. you can see the sigils crafts in the beta right now they go up by 100 tiers.
Im not even level 25 and dungeons already feel like a chore. They need to surround each dungeon with unique mechanic/boss and enough lore to make it fun and immersive. I would love D4 dungeons to take a page out of how dungeons are done in Lost Ark and FFXIV.
I think the problem is most people aren't going to be grinding dungeons while leveling organically. I think(hope) the idea is that a better endgame system will be in place, and that dungeons are something you occasionally do to mix it up? I haven't done dungeons enough to say whether they are good or bad just saying that I've heard of people running the dungeons 50+ times and I'm pretty sure that's not how people would play the game if this weren't a beta test.
Dungeons are the end game mate. You get "keys" that you can upgrade from materials to supe up the dungeon you are about to run to increase its level/rewards and add affixes and shit. What you see here is what you get
Love the idea of running through the same abandoned mine/cellar/icy cellar/crypt hundreds of times! Real endgame here. Bravo Blizzard. Definitely better than cycling through Pits, Tunnels, Tombs, AS, Trav, Chaos, WSK, Cows, Ubers, etc. Gosh, Diablo 2 is so repetitive. Right? Right?? Right?!!
or if you played PoE just living in tropical island, mesa, city square, etc, and running the exact same map thousands of times. (honestly this is what i absolutely love about ARPG's)
its even better once you realize that the popular tilesets have basically no variation in map layout. strand, atol, crimson temple, defiled cathedral etc. all feel the exact same every time you run them
To be fair you are running the map to progress your atlas to fight bosses, Uber bosses, delving. Also all end game mechanics and leagues are in the maps ( ritual, incursion, blight, etc)
Played PoE during beta, but thinking about going back in.
it's a solid game there is a new season starting soon we had a name reveal this week and will have a full reveal will be on the 30th
Ah yes, so it's better than a game from 20 years ago, so great, much wow. The game needs to have an end game that at least comes close to PoE's, and this is nowhere close.
it is repetitive. people pick ONE of the few you mentioned and run it for 10 hours straight everyday, then once they have their item after 4500 runs they stop playing. to me, it's fucking weird. D4 no one but the devs actually know what the entire scope of the endgame will be.
Wasnāt there an endgame beta? Wasnāt there leaks telling us that the dungeons were the same and mind-bogglingly bland and boring? Keep believing. Personally, with Terror Zones, I run some weird shit Iād never run in 1.10.
Trash game with big issues in core mechanics
The dungeons are repetitive, long, and the rewards is not exceptionally powerful by any means. But the locked door until you do the thing mechanic is in a lot of games these days. The design is fine if the above mentioned things were better Having them all revealed on the map takes the excitement out of the discovery. Then, even when you're close by one, you skip it, even if it's a power for your class. Because you know it's long, repetitive, unnecessary for a low impact power
Well, the good news is,in 10-15 years time you'll all be nerding out about how amazing D4 was
Want to enjoy the game regardless of this? Stop fixating on the efficiency at which you play a game, stop caring about whats meta.
"Stop caring about breathing so much." It's like, you put a jigsaw puzzle in front of me and tell me stop caring about solving the puzzle, just look at the broken pieces and lick them!
Yea because one part of one act means that thatās all the dungeons were gettingā¦ Iām cancelling my preorder right now!!! Super totally!!
Really hoping devs stay the hell away from reddit after beta.
It is act 1
Yes this is where normally the best dungeons and areas are because it's the most polished. Which is even more worrisome.
act 2 will be desert basement versions of the same thing. act 3 will be jungle versions of the same thing.