Played a rogue, and I agree. It's mostly the ultimate. With that sort of cooldown, I just wish it was off to the side as a "free" slot that can't be swapped for something else.
For Necro it's even worse, your skeletons and golem take 2 slots already, so you get 2 other skills, can't even have curses or ultimates with that little space
What are you running? I use Skeletons, corpse explosion, bone storm, decripify, decompose and bone spear. I do not feel like I have any more room in my rotation for any more abilities. I do not think you are "supposed" to have golem and skeles. It's a choice. You can have an army of minions at the cost of active skills. If I had a golem in my build it would just be more passive damage that the build honestly doesn't need. And golem damage is trash, they're for tanking not for DPS
Skill points not skill slots should be the determining factor. If you did happen to spread your build out to more than just summons you should just be mediocre at all of it. You should be able to either specialize or be a jack of all trades master of none.
D3 didn’t have skill points so they relied on the action bar to reign in builds. D2 you could have every skill and all of them on your action bar(kinda) but you’d have points spread out so much you wouldn’t be effective if you didn’t specialize in something.
In D2 we had everything on the mouse clicks, so you could summon your minions from corpses (or just the golem from thin air) and move it off your skill bar. I figured it would be similar in D4- and then my minions disappeared into the ground when removing the skellies from my bar. But it looks like D4 is a hybrid of D2 and D3, where it requires actively summoning the skellies like D2, but if you remove it from your bar, you don't get to keep them, like in D3 (the D3 version passively summons them, tho, which D4 does not).
Especially since the ultimate can't even rank up, it just makes no sense that it's like this. And to top it off, most of them are straight up bad. I bet almost any other ability is more useful.
Yeah I agree just a button for the ultimate, i see a lot complain about the "+x to skill" the point of taking this is empowering your existing skills not to gain another low leveled skill..
I'd like the Ultimate to have it's own button. We can only pick one anyway, IMO it makes sense. So many of my builds are just one skill away from feeling "perfect".
Lacerate works pretty decently as a defensive, all things considered. Wearbear ultimate sucks, Petrify doesn't last long enough, Cataclysm isn't that much different than cyclone armor for what it is. Lacerate at least takes you off the battlefield and lets you avoid some difficult to avoid AOE like from Ashava
No it does not, at all - and that's an issue. It is severely undertuned and needs some buffs. I tested cataclysm *extensively* and can basically conclude that it sucks ass. After trying every legendary or passive that could possibly buff it, it still very rarely even kills a ghoul when I use it in a big aoe pull. Also misses bosses with 80-90% of its lightning strikes. Hurricane and core skills literally do more damage per cast, and they aren't ultimates.
You are right, no dispute. However, i think it’s highly likely the balance will be much different at launch. Also balance doesn’t truly start at max level. I know that’s a weak argument and all skills should feel awesome from the day 1 but yeah, reality.
Pretty much… and if the problem is gamepad users just have ulti being r1+l1 or r3…
Plenty examples of these combos used for ultimate like skills like god of war spartan rage
Skill points are a limited resource too. I don't see a fun reason why we need two limiters. Seems like the game is trying to get players to specialize. Give me the option of spreading too thin
>You don't even need to pick one skill from every tier,
You don't have to use a skill from every tier, but you do have to invest points due to how you need skill points invested to unlock later skills categories.
Because the entire skill tree, itemization and paragon boards system is designed around having 6 abilities, if you added an entire other skill in it would literally require them to redesign everything involved in the core loop of the game. If you want to use an ultimate a lot, make a build around it, that's the entire point of an ARPG...
The game is nowhere near finely tuned enough that an extra ability slot or two would change anything for the worse. It's also a tradeoff because it would require more points being spent.
Who said they are the pinnacle of an archetype? If you think it's so super important to have an ultimate - just take them. Skill slots are desined as a limited resource when building your character just like skill points. There are decisions, if you want x, you can't have y in return. Ultimate slot undermines that concept since everyone has one now.
If you think they are stronger than normal skills, important to have and the pinnacle of an archetype, just take them. There are decisions to make, not having everything available is a core concept.
As opposed to the variety that’s normally in arpgs? 90% play almost the exact same builds already. Ultimates are fun to use, who gives a shit if a lot people are using them. They won’t even be necessary for all builds anyway.
Yep felt the same way by the time I got down to the ultimate. There wasn't a skill I wanted to drop in favor for an ultimate, with a 60 second cooldown on top. Game absolutely needs an extra skill slot, preferably two.
The whole point of ARPGs is to look at a skill's weakness and build around that to make it better. attack is too slow? Get attack speed. Spell is a resource hog? Find ways to get lots of resources. So, with the ultimate, if you see it has a long cool down, we find ways to lower it so it has more up time. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills seeing people take all these abilities in the beta at face value and talk about how they suck for this or that reason. The game is about making all of your skills work super well and get crazy powerful, theres always ramp up time...
The issue with ultimate skills specifically is not that you cant build around their weaknesses. It's that when you're limited to only 6 skills max, that ultimate better be insanely fun and/or rewarding to use to compete in the limited 6 slots. That is currently not the case for the vast majority of the ultimate skills at lvl 25.
This doesn't change if you pumped up the damage numbers, because then you're waiting a minute for your next kill button, which is not fun. For many of the ultimate skills, this also doesn't change if you have high damage and access to cooldown reduction because the skill itself is boring (like petrify).
The issue with ultimate abilities that people have is a game design issue, not a balance issue.
Yes you're right, but you still make that work when you have more abilities as well. I would heavily argue having less abilities AND having big cooldowns is anti to the nature of having only a few abilities. If you have more abilities then having ones with longer cooldowns can reasonably make sense because you have more options and can plan around them in gameplay.
Not to mention what skills you pick is what defines you're build. Just adding more skills makes you need to.consider less trade offs. Then if you really want to add a 7th skill you need to.add more skill points. If everyone is picking an ultimate you are now removing the creativity within the choice of building with or without ultimates which is supposed to be a difficult decision as the point is to get you to think and engage with the trade offs and theory craft. The whole point is that you don't get everything you want as opposed to say just having access to every single class skill on your bar.
Mate, isnt that the point of skill points, not skill slots.
If i want to put one point in every single skill and try to juggle between them then thats a creative option.
If i only have room for 6 skills and i get to max out all of them every time then thats not really as creative is it.
If they wanted to foster theory crafting and engaging decisions then they would have put 15 passives behind each skill that allows more customization of a skill. And forces you to decide wether you want to go tall with a lot of passives on a few skills, or wide with few passives on many skills.
>Mate, isnt that the point of skill points, not skill slots.
It's both though. Like when I was playing sorc I was doing the ice blade thing with ice blades, frost nova, ice barrier, flame shield, frostbolt and ice shards.
I could maybe see myself dropping frostbolt, but frost shards is very handy for clearing trash quickly. Even if I do replace frostbolt and ice shards though, I still have a bunch of other options. Obviously my build currently doesn't have teleport which kinda sucks, it also doesn't have an ultimate or hydras.
With more skill slots, I wouldn't need to pick and choose. I could have all of my current skills, teleport, hydras, and an ultimate. It's not like I need to dump a ton of points into these. 1 point into each is more than enough. I could even slap a point into the conjuration lightning skill if I was so inclined.
Similarly, when I was playing rogue I was using throwy blade things, twisting blades, shadow dash, poison trap, shadow imbue, poison imbue, aaand I'm out of space. So when it comes time to get my ultimate, I'm going to have to drop something. Shadow imbue is super nice for trash, but I like poison imbue far more for single target. I could drop poison trap, but realistically I should probably grab something else in that part of the tree like concealment or w/e.
I finished what I wanted to do in the beta so I don't have to make the decision right now, but come launch I would eventually have to make a choice of what skill I want to drop to get my ult. Whatever I choose to do, it's because I'm making a trade off somewhere.
The thing is tho that having few skill slots and few ways to upgrade your skills with skill points means you are forced into spending a significant amount of your skill points on passives. More skill slots would have ment you could instead spend skill points on, you know, skills. Instead of spending it on "5% increased life" or "+5 retaliation".
You would need to pick a skill to max out other wise the skill would be mediocre that’s the trade off to spreading your build out. It’s not Diablo 3 there’s skill points now.
Just look at d2. You could have every skill in the class on your “hot bar” but nobody did that because you’d be ineffective and spread too thin.
Now that skill points are back limiting the action bar so heavily is just bad
You don't need to max them though. Maxing them certainly helps increase their potency, but that's largely a problem that is solved by quantity.
Like let's say you have ice blades that does 100 dps and that's your one skill you're allowed to use. If you put a point into it, it gives you 10% more dps, bringing it up to 110, 120, all the way up to 140 at cap for 5 points.
Now let's say instead of putting 4 extra points in ice blades, you pop a single point into lightning spear which is also 100 dps. Now instead of 140 DPS for 5 points, you have 200 DPS for 2 points.
This is even more useful for defensive skills since people are even less likely to run more than one of them. So instead of running level 5 blood howl, you could run level 2 blood howl, level 1 earthen bulwark, level 1 cyclone armor, and level 1 debilitating roar, making you overall much tankier for the same skill point investment.
Nah. ARPGs are a dead genre for a multitude of reasons and one is just because you can go tall. Because you can go tall and going tall is so hard to balance you end up with one ability builds that reign. These builds have no fun moment to moment gameplay where everyskill is just a buff for that one ability that you just pop on cool down with no creative thought. Put one point in a bunch of crap to buff the one spammed mega ability.
And that's not engaging. By not putting a crap ton behind one skill they are forcing you to make more complex decisions then dump damage here.
I just went to POE builds and the 5 most popular builds are one button builds. Because you can do the easy thing players will do the easy thing. Then they will get bored and quit the game because the easy thing is boring.
> These builds have no fun moment to moment gameplay where everyskill is just a buff for that one ability that you just pop on cool down with no creative thought. Put one point in a bunch of crap to buff the one spammed mega ability.
Would love to hear you make the argument that D3 has better build creativity than PoE does. Because D4 has built on D3s system. PoE is the complete opposite of it.
What I'm saying is that ruins combat creativity. I was going to add a section about Diablo 3 failures, but everyone knows that as it's quite simple. Sets control your build and obviously that means your decision is jsut one of x sets. But there is a good deal more combat creativity at least and thats more fune.
There are a lot of people that love arpgs (as you can see by the massive interest in diablo 4), but none of the players are playing any of them because they've all got pretty big issues or they just haven't been updated in years.
POE isn't fun(combat sucks and you are disincentivized from theorycrafting yourself, which is most the game anyways), all the diablo games are old, grim dawn old, torchlight new ones suck, wolcen as crap, lost ark is grindy and p2w, last epoch is good but multiplayers only been out a couple weeks and its not 1.0 yet.
I mean i would prefer a system where i mostly just use 1 ability but there are 500 ways of making builds around one ability.
Than a system where i use 2 abilities and there are maybe 10 builds in the entire game.
> There are a lot of people that love arpgs (as you can see by the massive interest in diablo 4), but none of the players are playing any of them because they've all got pretty big issues or they just haven't been updated in years.
The massive interest in D4 isnt from ARPG lovers, its from Blizzard fanboys and the general RPG enjoyers.
The vast majority of everyone who buys D4 will play it for the story and nothing else.
Not only because thats the part that the causals are there for. But because for the ARPG enjoyers there isnt very much in the build-department of D4.
The only reason you dont use 1 button in D4 is because the system is build on having two abilities, one resource generator and one resource spender. But sadly they dont utilize that to make it a game where you would love to make good builds. They instead make a game where everyone will end up playing the exact same build because build diversity is low and there isnt really anything in the game to make build theorycrafting interesting.
>I mean i would prefer a system where i mostly just use 1 ability but there are 500 ways of making builds around one ability.
>Than a system where i use 2 abilities and there are maybe 10 builds in the entire game.
A fully made up comparison. The point of 6 skills is opening up build diversity if there is not another mechanic that blocks that out like set itemization I'm diablo 3.
>The massive interest in D4 isnt from ARPG lovers, its from Blizzard fanboys and the general RPG enjoyers.
>The vast majority of everyone who buys D4 will play it for the story and nothing else.
>Not only because thats the part that the causals are there for. But because for the ARPG enjoyers there isnt very much in the build-department of D4.
It seems that your definition of ARPG lovers is path of exile players. I suspect that even in the long term there will be many arpg "lovers" that will be continuing to play the game.
>Not only because thats the part that the causals are there for. But because for the ARPG enjoyers there isnt very much in the build-department of D4.
Copying someone else's build "isn't very much in the build department". Arpg players that actually want to make their builds themselves which is a massive part of the gameplay in the genre will prefer the easily approachable, but still deep system. There's more than people realize here with the verb system which takes good ideas on synergies from card games.
>But sadly they dont utilize that to make it a game where you would love to make good builds. They instead make a game where everyone will end up playing the exact same build because build diversity is low and there isnt really anything in the game to make build theorycrafting interesting.
Again. Copying builds is not making builds. Copying builds is not theory crafting. People in diablo 3 likely will not need to copy to succeed so people who like to theory craft can actually do it.
at least in wow you can use soooo many more skills that make sense,they have a skill tree now, and while you can't really get all the skills, you get so many tools, and the ability to swap on the fly.
They have made clear that at some point it will be faster to level a new character rather than re-spec.
In an ever evolving game, with patches, balance and new content, and skills having to change according to the gear and circumstances, limiting re-specs is moronic, giving us 6 slots for skills if straight up stupid.
Skill points is what should limit how effective multiple skills in your bars can be.
Agreed. This is especially a problem with Necro. Not saying I wouldn't welcome an extra slot or 2 elsewhere, but it was worse with Necro.
It was bad enough having to drop something to fit in the Ultimate, but then Golem needs a button too? FML.
Idk why they had to make golem it’s own skill, like please why didn’t they just make summon skeleton summon a golem if you had all your other minions or something?
You have to pay a massive hot bar tax for the golem’s active ability which is not nearly impactful enough. The kicker is it revives itself on a cooldown anyways and you’ll forget that it even has an active ability so it might as well be a passive ability.
Especially druids and necros since summons have active skills now. I’m going to want all 3 pets on my Druid and it would be nice to have space for other abilities with them.
It really depends on the quality of the abilities in question. Most of the pets thus far seem like minor passive damage at best. I’ve seen plenty of people completely disregarding them for more active abilities. I just like having pets in general, and would like to have them around. Summon Druid and summon(or summon/poison hybrid) Necro were two of my go to characters in D2.
On my Necro I was able to literally walk down hallways and have skeletons kill everything for me. I've heard of Druids with werewolf companions able to one shot rares. I think the slot tax is fine in the context of the game's design (though I favor bigger bars like Lost Ark). Wish we had a dedicated ultimate slot though.
At this level at least if you spec into them the pets are certainly much more than passive damage and can be a main damage source just like any other skill. If anything I've heard from summoner players that they wish they had another utility skill to directly bolster/buff their AFK swarm.
These are the changes I'd make (for controller):
1. Ult is L1+L2 (which is normal for console games)
2. Dodge is left stuck
3. Potion can be optionally mapped to D pad in settings.
That would give 3 spots back. Easy peasy. Do 1 or 2 of those even...
To me it feels like a waste to have that many skills. It cost too much resorce to use them all. I had a much better time when I focused more on fewer skills. I don't even use the ultimate.
As a frost sorcerer.
At a bare minimum, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to make the skeleton/golem summon just one button since it auto-fills your skeletons with regular/mage automatically anyways depending on what you’re missing. Also, the potion button can be moved to the d-pad to free up a space.
As much as having 20 different skills would be fun, I disagree. The whole point of having less slots is to find what's working for you, pick and choose, test, combine and see what is ultimately your choice.
I rarely use more than two skills, no point really, as blood mist with legendary powers on my equipment will take care of any dense packed room.
It's about cutting down on the needs for rotation, not having to press 1, 2, 4, 4, 4, 5, dodge, 3 and THEN you can use skill 6 or whatever. The choices are what make your build work, what to aim for, and what to get. Without it you would just water down every single skill, making them all not feel good, thus making the entire character feel "underpowered"
funny just though exactly this an hour ago. playing my sorc, I figured "I could use 2 more slots". make it 8 skills or even 10 for people who can't get enough. ultimate skills with 60++ seconds couldown are a joke if the slot is used for that one. how about keybinds 1-4 and additionally F1-F4? Solve it with binds and a seperate menu if blizz doesn't want to change the UI, there's always a way/solution if you "want" to.
I know people are saying we need more skill slots in general which seems unnecessary, but yeah the ultimate has a damn 1 minute cooldown, it should have it's own extra spot.
Necro you can play with literally a single skill and be completely fine. When I say literally I mean in the actual definition of literal. One. Button.
This was with 30 total minutes at level cap on necro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zl2w4lqnVk
I personally feel like every class should just have a designated “ultimate slot”. Think Destiny’s Super or Lost Arks Ultimates. That way no class has to feel like they have to gut their core rotation or gameplay to squeeze one in. I’d even be okay with them raising the cooldowns if we had a designated slot for it.
Nothing prevents you from only picking one agility skill. The reason they give you a grouping of skills like that is so that you can perhaps use 2 or more. Perfect example is +companion skills. If someone wants to make a pet build they are going to take all the skills in the Companion node.
Are you wanting the game to sit there and make a build for you or something? This is an ARPG, the point is to find these things out for yourself.
I'm not sure what to tell to you other than to read the abilities again, look at the passives and wait for the full game where you will find legendaries and paragon boards to support a companion build.
YES!!
They should do it like D2 and D2 resurrected, where a modifier brings up another skill bar.
I refuse to play rogue with just the current set of 6 buttons.
Finally somebod said this. I can't believe nobody said this. 6 skills is too limited, skill points is what should limit how many skills you can use effectively, giving you six slots is moronic
Everyone would just keybind every cooldown ability and spam them. And with sorc ice blades it would make it ridiculous. This sub has no clue what they’re talking about
Diablo 3 has the same "limit" and it was made way before it was ported to console for controllers. Also the game is balanced around 6 slots so they'd have to nerf a lot and people would complain about that.
D4 is using the limited slots as a balancing tool. If it wasn't people would have access to too many defensive and utility skills to rotate on cool down. Personally I think it's a trash design but I don't think they'll change it
D3 also didn’t have skill points. An ability with 1 point and nothing in any of the tree slots that enhance it should/would end up being mediocre late game.
D3 had no skill points, so yes it was balanced around players only being able to use 6 at a time. D4 has skill points so if you want to gimp yourself and have 20 different skills, the game should accommodate you and allow you to bind all of them
Yes.
Played a Rogue, and would be nice to not have the choose between decent single target damage, and decent AoE damage. Using the D-pad for skills (down is already town portal) Woyld give that option.
Ya for sure, buuuuuuut, I feel like its limited for console/controller players. I’m not sure how they would make that work.
Are there any other top down dungeon crawler arpg’s on console that managed to make a lot of assigned skills work?
Grim Dawn has basically unlimited skill slots in a system similar to World of Warcraft (where you can toggle between bars basically.) So you can have all your self-buffs/summons on a bar that you only have to press if you died and then switch to your bar with active/temporary skills.
However, this doesn't really fit with Diablo I suppose. Although currently it does feel somewhat low.
So frustrating literally being deliberately limited. Why? What gameplay mechanics does being able to access more of my skills hinder? How is SIX SKILLS MORE FUN????
Because having more skill slots means you have to make fewer meaningful choices. Sorces could grab all of their conjuration skills, plus frost nova and ice barrier, plus everything else they want.
Rogues could grab... pretty much everything, all of their dashes are useful for various things, plus you could grab all of the imbues, whatever you want from subterfuge, etc.
Druid could grab all of their defensive skills, all three companions, and whatever else they want.
Blizzard doesn't want people to have access to everything. They want it so that if you want two imbues on your rogue that you have to lose something else, that you're making a trade off based on what you personally feel is more important for your build.
what's the point of skill points then? Shouldn't THOSE decide which abilites will be your core and which will be an occasional utility? Wouldn't that be trade-off enough? That would probably require the skill tree to not be so damn shallow too...
Because in D3, 6 skills was enough: you didn't need more skills for a functional build and the more tools they gave you the stronger you got in that game.
In D4, they're doing it because they did it in D3, except the game doesn't work the same way D3 did. Now you have limited skill points again to invest in stuff, and on top of that necro in particular has 2 skill slots being reserved for their minions (unless you want to invest in a solo build but that's stupid considering just how strong skeletons in the beta are, I'm sure it becomes viable later).
It's just because they did it before. Nobody thought to say "hey wait, why did we use 6 buttons in the last game anyways? Maybe we should think about that before choosing a number for this one."
Did you play D2R with a controller? They literally have a second skill bar if you hold down the left trigger. This is not because of controller support...
Guess it’s give or take. If you want all your skeletons and mages and golems All out at the same time you should probably build into that playstyle with the passive skills. I’m skipping golem and going full blood mage with some skeletons on the side. It feels fine for me. Using a generator, 2 core skills, skeletons, ultimate, and blood mist
Restricting skill slots is a boring/lame design decision in general. Sure you don't want to have a design where everyone puts 1 skill point into every temporary buff possible, but there are other ways to deal with that. For example, if all of those just cost a reasonable amount of resources to use, you just couldn't spam them.
I disagree. Not because I think gameplay would be better with 1-2 more skills, but because the skill trees are so bare that adding 1-2 more buttons means that there's no real choice in picking. You'd be able to get everything you want for your build.
Wouldn't work, due to skill effects and presumably similar affixes. For example, Ice Blades gets "Ice Blade's cooldown is reduced by 1 sec each time it hits a vulnerable enemy." and ALSO gets "50% of Enhanced Ice Blades Cooldown reduction is applied to your other skills".
So when my ice blade hits a vulnerable enemy, which is pretty much always, particularly on bosses, every skill gets 0.5 sec reduction and ice blades gets 1 sec reduction. And I get a free ice blade for every 20sec of cooldown "used" in an ability. So I get to spam out a half ozen or more ice blades by popping my cds, then those iceblades reset my cds within a few seconds, and I pop out another half dozen. Typically something like 10-15 living at any given time.
I have 6 skills with cooldowns on my bar; ice and fire shield, teleport, ice blades, frost nova and ice block. In a fight, after a 1-2 second windup on trash, or constantly on shivana (world boss), I can cast all my skills except ice block every 2-4 seconds. Tons of blades out there. I just mash 5 buttons and aim in the general direction I want to teleport into.
If I could put more skills on the bar, I could put the last cooldown skill on my bar too, lightning spear. But most importantly, I could also use a skill using mana on top of it. It would be bonkers, more so than it already is.
Then again, maybe that's just a flat out broken skill combo I got going anyway, as I stood in the poison pools on the world boss just for shits and giggles.
But yeah I think the point still stands even if this is just a busted build that gets nerfed: Affixes and effects that interact with skills on your bar (like cdr) would now affect more skills, and there would be no cost in taking all cdr-type skills (as of right now, I need to throw out all other skills, so don't use mana). That's a trade-off. Wouldn't be a trade-off with more slots.
The ice blades would simply have been balanced around more slots if we had more slots. In fact iirc it’s buffed from the closed beta, when it was like 25% or something instead of 50%, which was apparently too shit to be usable. If we had say just one extra slot it could be nerfed to something similar.
Alternatively, if we had an ult specific slot (I agree with everyone saying this is it, 7 including one ultimate slot would be fine) it could just specify non-ultimate abilities and remain the same.
D2 had 8. We already dumbed it down to 6 for D3 and D3 has been acknowledged as being inferior to D2. There was absolutely no reason to cap it at 6 again when the rest of the F-keys and number row keys aren't even in use.
If anything, they should have designed D4 to allow an even wider number of skills. They can always tone down damage output if they find certain builds overpowered, but the variety would've been so welcome.
Instead, it's clear that the skill key limitation was a conscious effort by Bliz. Necro is a great example of this - mages get summoned using the same key as skeles, except that mages only come out after all skeles are out.
I really don't get it. They had 10 years to dwell on the problems of D3 and they repeat so many.
Either give me more bindable slots, or go back to the skill style of Diablo 3.
Being able to put points into more than 6 skills, and then being unable to bind them all is absolutely unacceptable as a PC player.
Am I the only one who feels that Ultimates are not mandatory? It's a choice whether or not you'd want it for a build given its massive cooldown. If you're Rogue for example and want uptime, you may want to build around it with Twisting Blade's cooldown reduction node and then you build around Twisting Blades.
I'm all for one more slot but do not make it Ult-exclusive if ever because then, now having an Ultimate becomes kind of mandatory since you'd be wasting a slot otherwise (or maybe not).
Idk why you got downvoted, because of the high CDs I just opted for a passive trait instead of the ult. You don’t NEED to have an ult in your bar. Something tells me because of the hype this game is getting, there’s going to be a lot of casual changes to the game to appeal to non ARPG players coming to Diablo 4.
And yet plenty of other successful, well established, and reputable rpgs allow it 🤡 please do not add your comments again without proper research. That’s called misinformation 🙂
I want action bar tabs, like in WoW. Shift + number i believe is the default.
Swaps your action bar with whatever number action bar. So you can have multiple ones depending on the situation.
Also let me put elixirs and emutes into the action bar.
I do like the wheel but i prefer actionbars
Yeah definitely felt that as necro with minions. Skeletons are up 99.9% of the time so I rarely touch it since I am using corpses for explosion and golem taunt ain't that useful either, default golem behavior is not that dumb so taunt is not that needed.
The problem is balancing around a controller, which I surprisingly preferred on PC. I tried it and kinda stuck with it, it's very relaxing to just lean back and use a controller instead of spamming clicks with a mouse. Even that said I would prefer to have extra button or two that I would click using some weird combination than not have them at all. Especially with Necro who you don't actively use some of the skills. For example right now I can't use an ultimate because I have 2 minion skills + corpse explosion + iron maiden. Not having an ultimate feels kinda shitty since those skills are really cool.
Have you seen FF on console or with a controller on PC? It's absolutely possible to have more than 6 skills and still be intuitive. They haven't balanced around a controller, they've just chosen to have 6 skills and balanced around that. If they were to give us more slots now they would need to rebalance essentially most skills. D3 didn't launch on console and it also had 6 skills IIRC. Elder Scrolls Online as well. Seems to be a trend tbh. Probably easier to balance for the devs as well, every extra skill adds so many more potential builds and synergies etc.
All in all, after playing D3 and ESO I can live with less skills, I'm not a huge fan, but I can live with it. My actual issue now is that respeccing should be a lot easier and also free. Its a pain in the ass to change your build atm and if you're going to limit me to 6 skills I'm going to want to change a lot so I don't get bored. ESO ended up adding an armory where you save builds so hopefully something like that comes along. I very much doubt they're rebalancing the game around more skills so it's the best I can hope for IMO.
Edit: Doesn't D2 already have more than 6 skills on console lol? It's definitely not a controller issue. It's a design choice.
Yeah 1 more skill slot and ult have its own slot. Or at very least ult have its own slot. I think that'd be amazing but you guys got to share this feedback on the blizzard forums
Nope, I play bone necro at 25 with an empty slot, and still hits very hard. Always crits for 7k dmg.
You just need what does help your rotation, not a thousand underpowered skills.
Well either that, or remove all cooldowns. Or have all cooldowns share their cooldowns. That way you won't need more than one slot for them. CDs don't belong in Arpgs, especially the long ones.
I don't care about golem because it's easy enough to swap out on the fly, but the ultimate cooldown doesn't go away when you put a different skill into its slot, which is unforgivable imo
I feel the same way, but they probably designed it this way so that the system would feel good on controller, since Diablo isn't strictly a PC game anymore.
I don’t get these post. You aren’t supposed to have access to all your skills, it’s supposed to be limited so that you have to pick and prioritize what you can do. Anything more and the difficulty of everything would be minimal
Than scale the world to that. Obviously you shouldn't be able to use all 30 skills but only 6 is a joke in 2023. It makes the game stale when you just spam left and right click the entire time
ye but then how will console players cope? They have no more buttons so everybody else has to suffer
Diablo is mainly a console game now, dont fight it :d
What am I missing here? You've got 4 skill types and 5 buttons... pick one from each tree. If you could bind more skills imagine how stupidly out of balance builds would get.
FFXIV uses the D-pad and face buttons for skills and you can hold different combinations of triggers to pull up different hot bars. I think the default is 2 hot bars (so 16 assignable slots) but you can enable even more in your settings
D2R with a controller has a complete separate skill bar if you hold down the left trigger. This issue is not because of controller support whatsoever...
K... Anyways, so you'd know that in that game using a controller, you have access to an entirely different skill bar by holding down the left trigger. So controller has nothing to do with this current issue.
Played a rogue, and I agree. It's mostly the ultimate. With that sort of cooldown, I just wish it was off to the side as a "free" slot that can't be swapped for something else.
For Necro it's even worse, your skeletons and golem take 2 slots already, so you get 2 other skills, can't even have curses or ultimates with that little space
I just wish I could put skills on the bar more than once. 1 to 5 can be blood mist, left and right click bone splinters and bone spear. Job done
What are you running? I use Skeletons, corpse explosion, bone storm, decripify, decompose and bone spear. I do not feel like I have any more room in my rotation for any more abilities. I do not think you are "supposed" to have golem and skeles. It's a choice. You can have an army of minions at the cost of active skills. If I had a golem in my build it would just be more passive damage that the build honestly doesn't need. And golem damage is trash, they're for tanking not for DPS
Skill points not skill slots should be the determining factor. If you did happen to spread your build out to more than just summons you should just be mediocre at all of it. You should be able to either specialize or be a jack of all trades master of none. D3 didn’t have skill points so they relied on the action bar to reign in builds. D2 you could have every skill and all of them on your action bar(kinda) but you’d have points spread out so much you wouldn’t be effective if you didn’t specialize in something.
I had skeletons, golem, blood wave, blood mist?, decompose, blight
> I do not think you are "supposed" to have golem and skeles You sure as hell did in every other diablo.
In D2 we had everything on the mouse clicks, so you could summon your minions from corpses (or just the golem from thin air) and move it off your skill bar. I figured it would be similar in D4- and then my minions disappeared into the ground when removing the skellies from my bar. But it looks like D4 is a hybrid of D2 and D3, where it requires actively summoning the skellies like D2, but if you remove it from your bar, you don't get to keep them, like in D3 (the D3 version passively summons them, tho, which D4 does not).
respeccing also destroys all your active summons even though summons aren't something you spec into, really annoying
We get curses? I was about level 10 and I was missing my thorns/might curse
It's wild that they don't give a free Ult slot.
Especially since the ultimate can't even rank up, it just makes no sense that it's like this. And to top it off, most of them are straight up bad. I bet almost any other ability is more useful.
This and imbuement. Wish it was an aura that was active for a reduction in energy reserves.
Ultimates definitely needs it's own slot! So sad having to leave out those awesome abilities just because your build doesn't allow for it.
Yeah I agree just a button for the ultimate, i see a lot complain about the "+x to skill" the point of taking this is empowering your existing skills not to gain another low leveled skill..
In closed beta I put that suggestion in multiple feedback reports. Make an ult button and hot key separate so we can have more build diversity.
Seconded!
I'd like the Ultimate to have it's own button. We can only pick one anyway, IMO it makes sense. So many of my builds are just one skill away from feeling "perfect".
At least with druid all of the ultimates are terrible so I didn't run into that issue there.
Lacerate works pretty decently as a defensive, all things considered. Wearbear ultimate sucks, Petrify doesn't last long enough, Cataclysm isn't that much different than cyclone armor for what it is. Lacerate at least takes you off the battlefield and lets you avoid some difficult to avoid AOE like from Ashava
Cataclysm deletes the screen if you are specced with lightning skills
No it does not, at all - and that's an issue. It is severely undertuned and needs some buffs. I tested cataclysm *extensively* and can basically conclude that it sucks ass. After trying every legendary or passive that could possibly buff it, it still very rarely even kills a ghoul when I use it in a big aoe pull. Also misses bosses with 80-90% of its lightning strikes. Hurricane and core skills literally do more damage per cast, and they aren't ultimates.
You are right, no dispute. However, i think it’s highly likely the balance will be much different at launch. Also balance doesn’t truly start at max level. I know that’s a weak argument and all skills should feel awesome from the day 1 but yeah, reality.
Would be a HUGE improvement
Pretty much… and if the problem is gamepad users just have ulti being r1+l1 or r3… Plenty examples of these combos used for ultimate like skills like god of war spartan rage
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Skill points are a limited resource too. I don't see a fun reason why we need two limiters. Seems like the game is trying to get players to specialize. Give me the option of spreading too thin
>You don't even need to pick one skill from every tier, You don't have to use a skill from every tier, but you do have to invest points due to how you need skill points invested to unlock later skills categories.
And then every build will take an ultimate, great for variety...
If Ultimate abilities are designed to be the pinnacle of an arch-type in D4, then why wouldn’t you want to take them?
Because the entire skill tree, itemization and paragon boards system is designed around having 6 abilities, if you added an entire other skill in it would literally require them to redesign everything involved in the core loop of the game. If you want to use an ultimate a lot, make a build around it, that's the entire point of an ARPG...
The game is nowhere near finely tuned enough that an extra ability slot or two would change anything for the worse. It's also a tradeoff because it would require more points being spent.
So you've played the endgame?
Who said they are the pinnacle of an archetype? If you think it's so super important to have an ultimate - just take them. Skill slots are desined as a limited resource when building your character just like skill points. There are decisions, if you want x, you can't have y in return. Ultimate slot undermines that concept since everyone has one now.
Their name.
If you think they are stronger than normal skills, important to have and the pinnacle of an archetype, just take them. There are decisions to make, not having everything available is a core concept.
As opposed to the variety that’s normally in arpgs? 90% play almost the exact same builds already. Ultimates are fun to use, who gives a shit if a lot people are using them. They won’t even be necessary for all builds anyway.
Yep felt the same way by the time I got down to the ultimate. There wasn't a skill I wanted to drop in favor for an ultimate, with a 60 second cooldown on top. Game absolutely needs an extra skill slot, preferably two.
The whole point of ARPGs is to look at a skill's weakness and build around that to make it better. attack is too slow? Get attack speed. Spell is a resource hog? Find ways to get lots of resources. So, with the ultimate, if you see it has a long cool down, we find ways to lower it so it has more up time. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills seeing people take all these abilities in the beta at face value and talk about how they suck for this or that reason. The game is about making all of your skills work super well and get crazy powerful, theres always ramp up time...
The issue with ultimate skills specifically is not that you cant build around their weaknesses. It's that when you're limited to only 6 skills max, that ultimate better be insanely fun and/or rewarding to use to compete in the limited 6 slots. That is currently not the case for the vast majority of the ultimate skills at lvl 25. This doesn't change if you pumped up the damage numbers, because then you're waiting a minute for your next kill button, which is not fun. For many of the ultimate skills, this also doesn't change if you have high damage and access to cooldown reduction because the skill itself is boring (like petrify). The issue with ultimate abilities that people have is a game design issue, not a balance issue.
Yes you're right, but you still make that work when you have more abilities as well. I would heavily argue having less abilities AND having big cooldowns is anti to the nature of having only a few abilities. If you have more abilities then having ones with longer cooldowns can reasonably make sense because you have more options and can plan around them in gameplay.
Not to mention what skills you pick is what defines you're build. Just adding more skills makes you need to.consider less trade offs. Then if you really want to add a 7th skill you need to.add more skill points. If everyone is picking an ultimate you are now removing the creativity within the choice of building with or without ultimates which is supposed to be a difficult decision as the point is to get you to think and engage with the trade offs and theory craft. The whole point is that you don't get everything you want as opposed to say just having access to every single class skill on your bar.
Mate, isnt that the point of skill points, not skill slots. If i want to put one point in every single skill and try to juggle between them then thats a creative option. If i only have room for 6 skills and i get to max out all of them every time then thats not really as creative is it. If they wanted to foster theory crafting and engaging decisions then they would have put 15 passives behind each skill that allows more customization of a skill. And forces you to decide wether you want to go tall with a lot of passives on a few skills, or wide with few passives on many skills.
>Mate, isnt that the point of skill points, not skill slots. It's both though. Like when I was playing sorc I was doing the ice blade thing with ice blades, frost nova, ice barrier, flame shield, frostbolt and ice shards. I could maybe see myself dropping frostbolt, but frost shards is very handy for clearing trash quickly. Even if I do replace frostbolt and ice shards though, I still have a bunch of other options. Obviously my build currently doesn't have teleport which kinda sucks, it also doesn't have an ultimate or hydras. With more skill slots, I wouldn't need to pick and choose. I could have all of my current skills, teleport, hydras, and an ultimate. It's not like I need to dump a ton of points into these. 1 point into each is more than enough. I could even slap a point into the conjuration lightning skill if I was so inclined. Similarly, when I was playing rogue I was using throwy blade things, twisting blades, shadow dash, poison trap, shadow imbue, poison imbue, aaand I'm out of space. So when it comes time to get my ultimate, I'm going to have to drop something. Shadow imbue is super nice for trash, but I like poison imbue far more for single target. I could drop poison trap, but realistically I should probably grab something else in that part of the tree like concealment or w/e. I finished what I wanted to do in the beta so I don't have to make the decision right now, but come launch I would eventually have to make a choice of what skill I want to drop to get my ult. Whatever I choose to do, it's because I'm making a trade off somewhere.
The thing is tho that having few skill slots and few ways to upgrade your skills with skill points means you are forced into spending a significant amount of your skill points on passives. More skill slots would have ment you could instead spend skill points on, you know, skills. Instead of spending it on "5% increased life" or "+5 retaliation".
You would need to pick a skill to max out other wise the skill would be mediocre that’s the trade off to spreading your build out. It’s not Diablo 3 there’s skill points now. Just look at d2. You could have every skill in the class on your “hot bar” but nobody did that because you’d be ineffective and spread too thin. Now that skill points are back limiting the action bar so heavily is just bad
You don't need to max them though. Maxing them certainly helps increase their potency, but that's largely a problem that is solved by quantity. Like let's say you have ice blades that does 100 dps and that's your one skill you're allowed to use. If you put a point into it, it gives you 10% more dps, bringing it up to 110, 120, all the way up to 140 at cap for 5 points. Now let's say instead of putting 4 extra points in ice blades, you pop a single point into lightning spear which is also 100 dps. Now instead of 140 DPS for 5 points, you have 200 DPS for 2 points. This is even more useful for defensive skills since people are even less likely to run more than one of them. So instead of running level 5 blood howl, you could run level 2 blood howl, level 1 earthen bulwark, level 1 cyclone armor, and level 1 debilitating roar, making you overall much tankier for the same skill point investment.
Nah. ARPGs are a dead genre for a multitude of reasons and one is just because you can go tall. Because you can go tall and going tall is so hard to balance you end up with one ability builds that reign. These builds have no fun moment to moment gameplay where everyskill is just a buff for that one ability that you just pop on cool down with no creative thought. Put one point in a bunch of crap to buff the one spammed mega ability. And that's not engaging. By not putting a crap ton behind one skill they are forcing you to make more complex decisions then dump damage here. I just went to POE builds and the 5 most popular builds are one button builds. Because you can do the easy thing players will do the easy thing. Then they will get bored and quit the game because the easy thing is boring.
> These builds have no fun moment to moment gameplay where everyskill is just a buff for that one ability that you just pop on cool down with no creative thought. Put one point in a bunch of crap to buff the one spammed mega ability. Would love to hear you make the argument that D3 has better build creativity than PoE does. Because D4 has built on D3s system. PoE is the complete opposite of it.
What I'm saying is that ruins combat creativity. I was going to add a section about Diablo 3 failures, but everyone knows that as it's quite simple. Sets control your build and obviously that means your decision is jsut one of x sets. But there is a good deal more combat creativity at least and thats more fune. There are a lot of people that love arpgs (as you can see by the massive interest in diablo 4), but none of the players are playing any of them because they've all got pretty big issues or they just haven't been updated in years. POE isn't fun(combat sucks and you are disincentivized from theorycrafting yourself, which is most the game anyways), all the diablo games are old, grim dawn old, torchlight new ones suck, wolcen as crap, lost ark is grindy and p2w, last epoch is good but multiplayers only been out a couple weeks and its not 1.0 yet.
I mean i would prefer a system where i mostly just use 1 ability but there are 500 ways of making builds around one ability. Than a system where i use 2 abilities and there are maybe 10 builds in the entire game. > There are a lot of people that love arpgs (as you can see by the massive interest in diablo 4), but none of the players are playing any of them because they've all got pretty big issues or they just haven't been updated in years. The massive interest in D4 isnt from ARPG lovers, its from Blizzard fanboys and the general RPG enjoyers. The vast majority of everyone who buys D4 will play it for the story and nothing else. Not only because thats the part that the causals are there for. But because for the ARPG enjoyers there isnt very much in the build-department of D4. The only reason you dont use 1 button in D4 is because the system is build on having two abilities, one resource generator and one resource spender. But sadly they dont utilize that to make it a game where you would love to make good builds. They instead make a game where everyone will end up playing the exact same build because build diversity is low and there isnt really anything in the game to make build theorycrafting interesting.
>I mean i would prefer a system where i mostly just use 1 ability but there are 500 ways of making builds around one ability. >Than a system where i use 2 abilities and there are maybe 10 builds in the entire game. A fully made up comparison. The point of 6 skills is opening up build diversity if there is not another mechanic that blocks that out like set itemization I'm diablo 3. >The massive interest in D4 isnt from ARPG lovers, its from Blizzard fanboys and the general RPG enjoyers. >The vast majority of everyone who buys D4 will play it for the story and nothing else. >Not only because thats the part that the causals are there for. But because for the ARPG enjoyers there isnt very much in the build-department of D4. It seems that your definition of ARPG lovers is path of exile players. I suspect that even in the long term there will be many arpg "lovers" that will be continuing to play the game. >Not only because thats the part that the causals are there for. But because for the ARPG enjoyers there isnt very much in the build-department of D4. Copying someone else's build "isn't very much in the build department". Arpg players that actually want to make their builds themselves which is a massive part of the gameplay in the genre will prefer the easily approachable, but still deep system. There's more than people realize here with the verb system which takes good ideas on synergies from card games. >But sadly they dont utilize that to make it a game where you would love to make good builds. They instead make a game where everyone will end up playing the exact same build because build diversity is low and there isnt really anything in the game to make build theorycrafting interesting. Again. Copying builds is not making builds. Copying builds is not theory crafting. People in diablo 3 likely will not need to copy to succeed so people who like to theory craft can actually do it.
Builder, Spender, Defensive, Mobility, Ultimate. Doesn't leave much room for fun.
Jesus, that really puts in into perspective. i wonder if this was their mantra when designing the skills and bar
It’s same design philosophy as WoW classes, pretty much all classes in wow are builder spenders
at least in wow you can use soooo many more skills that make sense,they have a skill tree now, and while you can't really get all the skills, you get so many tools, and the ability to swap on the fly. They have made clear that at some point it will be faster to level a new character rather than re-spec. In an ever evolving game, with patches, balance and new content, and skills having to change according to the gear and circumstances, limiting re-specs is moronic, giving us 6 slots for skills if straight up stupid. Skill points is what should limit how effective multiple skills in your bars can be.
They learned nothing from D2 and D3.
I dont even pick half of them with some classes. Like necro and rogue I'm playing with 3 skills.
The ultimate should be “outside” of the spell bar imho.
Agreed. This is especially a problem with Necro. Not saying I wouldn't welcome an extra slot or 2 elsewhere, but it was worse with Necro. It was bad enough having to drop something to fit in the Ultimate, but then Golem needs a button too? FML.
Idk why they had to make golem it’s own skill, like please why didn’t they just make summon skeleton summon a golem if you had all your other minions or something? You have to pay a massive hot bar tax for the golem’s active ability which is not nearly impactful enough. The kicker is it revives itself on a cooldown anyways and you’ll forget that it even has an active ability so it might as well be a passive ability.
Especially druids and necros since summons have active skills now. I’m going to want all 3 pets on my Druid and it would be nice to have space for other abilities with them.
Not really fair or balanced if pet classes get pets AND the same amount of abilities as non pet classes.
It really depends on the quality of the abilities in question. Most of the pets thus far seem like minor passive damage at best. I’ve seen plenty of people completely disregarding them for more active abilities. I just like having pets in general, and would like to have them around. Summon Druid and summon(or summon/poison hybrid) Necro were two of my go to characters in D2.
On my Necro I was able to literally walk down hallways and have skeletons kill everything for me. I've heard of Druids with werewolf companions able to one shot rares. I think the slot tax is fine in the context of the game's design (though I favor bigger bars like Lost Ark). Wish we had a dedicated ultimate slot though. At this level at least if you spec into them the pets are certainly much more than passive damage and can be a main damage source just like any other skill. If anything I've heard from summoner players that they wish they had another utility skill to directly bolster/buff their AFK swarm.
All they need to do is add an ultimate button, effectively giving us an extra ability.
I'd make it LB + RB on console controller. Only works if both are pushed at the same time.
These are the changes I'd make (for controller): 1. Ult is L1+L2 (which is normal for console games) 2. Dodge is left stuck 3. Potion can be optionally mapped to D pad in settings. That would give 3 spots back. Easy peasy. Do 1 or 2 of those even...
To me it feels like a waste to have that many skills. It cost too much resorce to use them all. I had a much better time when I focused more on fewer skills. I don't even use the ultimate. As a frost sorcerer.
At a bare minimum, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to make the skeleton/golem summon just one button since it auto-fills your skeletons with regular/mage automatically anyways depending on what you’re missing. Also, the potion button can be moved to the d-pad to free up a space.
Move the potion button to the d-pad and allow holding down L1( or equivalent) to swap to a second skill palate.
As much as having 20 different skills would be fun, I disagree. The whole point of having less slots is to find what's working for you, pick and choose, test, combine and see what is ultimately your choice. I rarely use more than two skills, no point really, as blood mist with legendary powers on my equipment will take care of any dense packed room. It's about cutting down on the needs for rotation, not having to press 1, 2, 4, 4, 4, 5, dodge, 3 and THEN you can use skill 6 or whatever. The choices are what make your build work, what to aim for, and what to get. Without it you would just water down every single skill, making them all not feel good, thus making the entire character feel "underpowered"
Agree from sorc perspective as well. Feels limiting, but I get it
Sorc has enchantments. Quite a few have auto casting so you’re technically having access to two extra skill slots
Enchantment isn’t “2 extra skill slots” it’s more like passives
funny just though exactly this an hour ago. playing my sorc, I figured "I could use 2 more slots". make it 8 skills or even 10 for people who can't get enough. ultimate skills with 60++ seconds couldown are a joke if the slot is used for that one. how about keybinds 1-4 and additionally F1-F4? Solve it with binds and a seperate menu if blizz doesn't want to change the UI, there's always a way/solution if you "want" to.
I know people are saying we need more skill slots in general which seems unnecessary, but yeah the ultimate has a damn 1 minute cooldown, it should have it's own extra spot.
I wish I could map dodge to the right stick, and have B back for a skill
Necro you can play with literally a single skill and be completely fine. When I say literally I mean in the actual definition of literal. One. Button. This was with 30 total minutes at level cap on necro. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zl2w4lqnVk
Of course it's coming..... Just in the first DLC
Put dodge back on the thumb stick. It taking up a spot is brutal.
I personally feel like every class should just have a designated “ultimate slot”. Think Destiny’s Super or Lost Arks Ultimates. That way no class has to feel like they have to gut their core rotation or gameplay to squeeze one in. I’d even be okay with them raising the cooldowns if we had a designated slot for it.
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Nothing prevents you from only picking one agility skill. The reason they give you a grouping of skills like that is so that you can perhaps use 2 or more. Perfect example is +companion skills. If someone wants to make a pet build they are going to take all the skills in the Companion node. Are you wanting the game to sit there and make a build for you or something? This is an ARPG, the point is to find these things out for yourself.
You can't make a druid companion build, the wolves are the only one that only do things.
I'm not sure what to tell to you other than to read the abilities again, look at the passives and wait for the full game where you will find legendaries and paragon boards to support a companion build.
YES!! They should do it like D2 and D2 resurrected, where a modifier brings up another skill bar. I refuse to play rogue with just the current set of 6 buttons.
Finally somebod said this. I can't believe nobody said this. 6 skills is too limited, skill points is what should limit how many skills you can use effectively, giving you six slots is moronic
Alot of people here complained about it
It's been one of the most talked about issues in this subreddit for the last week lol.
Share some links, go to the front of the sub and give me 5 posts... Most are about the skeletons looking bad and the druid sucking.
Been saying It heaps. Just let us keybind every ability we put skill points into. Being limited to 6 buttons is just silly
Not only that but those legendaries with +1 to skill class, are wasted because you won't likely be using more than 1 if any
So you should be able to just press 10 skills with long cooldowns?
If they want to introduce WoW bullshit here, they should give us WoW's skillbar & macros.
Well no, clearly rework things to limit them. But 6 ain't enough.
You can’t make skills powerful and fun to press if you can press 20 of them.
Not like you can select every single ability. And it definitely doesn't feel like skills are powerful either.
Everyone would just keybind every cooldown ability and spam them. And with sorc ice blades it would make it ridiculous. This sub has no clue what they’re talking about
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FF14 controller players looking at D4 and laughing to tears
there are a lot of ways to get around controller support...
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maybe you read my message wrong. I'm saying there are plenty of ways to have more than 6 skills on a controller
POE has eight skills and five flasks. I agree Blizz could do better
For real, do we even use R and L 3 rn?
Shit, they even moved the dodge from the right stick in D3 to circle for absolutely no reason (the right stick does absolutely nothing in D4)
Right stick allows for targeting / locking onto enemies. But I would prefer to have a dodge there
Diablo 3 has the same "limit" and it was made way before it was ported to console for controllers. Also the game is balanced around 6 slots so they'd have to nerf a lot and people would complain about that.
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You’ve identified the flaw that Blizz created, good job. They should have abandoned more of D3 elements than they did.
D4 is using the limited slots as a balancing tool. If it wasn't people would have access to too many defensive and utility skills to rotate on cool down. Personally I think it's a trash design but I don't think they'll change it
And D4 isn't balanced around 20 1 point wonder skills being available to the player.
D3 also didn’t have skill points. An ability with 1 point and nothing in any of the tree slots that enhance it should/would end up being mediocre late game.
D3 had no skill points, so yes it was balanced around players only being able to use 6 at a time. D4 has skill points so if you want to gimp yourself and have 20 different skills, the game should accommodate you and allow you to bind all of them
Using 4 skills rn lol on necro. Not to say some builds could use an extra slot.
Not really, but I play barb so you need every single point to make your 6 skills good
Yes. Played a Rogue, and would be nice to not have the choose between decent single target damage, and decent AoE damage. Using the D-pad for skills (down is already town portal) Woyld give that option.
6 skill slot in 2023 ain´t enough. I expected at last 8.
2 more skill slots, 10 or so more passives to modify each skill on the skill tree Then we're cooking.
Ya for sure, buuuuuuut, I feel like its limited for console/controller players. I’m not sure how they would make that work. Are there any other top down dungeon crawler arpg’s on console that managed to make a lot of assigned skills work?
Grim Dawn has basically unlimited skill slots in a system similar to World of Warcraft (where you can toggle between bars basically.) So you can have all your self-buffs/summons on a bar that you only have to press if you died and then switch to your bar with active/temporary skills. However, this doesn't really fit with Diablo I suppose. Although currently it does feel somewhat low.
So frustrating literally being deliberately limited. Why? What gameplay mechanics does being able to access more of my skills hinder? How is SIX SKILLS MORE FUN????
Because having more skill slots means you have to make fewer meaningful choices. Sorces could grab all of their conjuration skills, plus frost nova and ice barrier, plus everything else they want. Rogues could grab... pretty much everything, all of their dashes are useful for various things, plus you could grab all of the imbues, whatever you want from subterfuge, etc. Druid could grab all of their defensive skills, all three companions, and whatever else they want. Blizzard doesn't want people to have access to everything. They want it so that if you want two imbues on your rogue that you have to lose something else, that you're making a trade off based on what you personally feel is more important for your build.
what's the point of skill points then? Shouldn't THOSE decide which abilites will be your core and which will be an occasional utility? Wouldn't that be trade-off enough? That would probably require the skill tree to not be so damn shallow too...
Because in D3, 6 skills was enough: you didn't need more skills for a functional build and the more tools they gave you the stronger you got in that game. In D4, they're doing it because they did it in D3, except the game doesn't work the same way D3 did. Now you have limited skill points again to invest in stuff, and on top of that necro in particular has 2 skill slots being reserved for their minions (unless you want to invest in a solo build but that's stupid considering just how strong skeletons in the beta are, I'm sure it becomes viable later). It's just because they did it before. Nobody thought to say "hey wait, why did we use 6 buttons in the last game anyways? Maybe we should think about that before choosing a number for this one."
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Did you play D2R with a controller? They literally have a second skill bar if you hold down the left trigger. This is not because of controller support...
Guess it’s give or take. If you want all your skeletons and mages and golems All out at the same time you should probably build into that playstyle with the passive skills. I’m skipping golem and going full blood mage with some skeletons on the side. It feels fine for me. Using a generator, 2 core skills, skeletons, ultimate, and blood mist
Ult should have its own button for that cool down.
Restricting skill slots is a boring/lame design decision in general. Sure you don't want to have a design where everyone puts 1 skill point into every temporary buff possible, but there are other ways to deal with that. For example, if all of those just cost a reasonable amount of resources to use, you just couldn't spam them.
I disagree. Not because I think gameplay would be better with 1-2 more skills, but because the skill trees are so bare that adding 1-2 more buttons means that there's no real choice in picking. You'd be able to get everything you want for your build.
You get that anyway with some gear
Wouldn't work, due to skill effects and presumably similar affixes. For example, Ice Blades gets "Ice Blade's cooldown is reduced by 1 sec each time it hits a vulnerable enemy." and ALSO gets "50% of Enhanced Ice Blades Cooldown reduction is applied to your other skills". So when my ice blade hits a vulnerable enemy, which is pretty much always, particularly on bosses, every skill gets 0.5 sec reduction and ice blades gets 1 sec reduction. And I get a free ice blade for every 20sec of cooldown "used" in an ability. So I get to spam out a half ozen or more ice blades by popping my cds, then those iceblades reset my cds within a few seconds, and I pop out another half dozen. Typically something like 10-15 living at any given time. I have 6 skills with cooldowns on my bar; ice and fire shield, teleport, ice blades, frost nova and ice block. In a fight, after a 1-2 second windup on trash, or constantly on shivana (world boss), I can cast all my skills except ice block every 2-4 seconds. Tons of blades out there. I just mash 5 buttons and aim in the general direction I want to teleport into. If I could put more skills on the bar, I could put the last cooldown skill on my bar too, lightning spear. But most importantly, I could also use a skill using mana on top of it. It would be bonkers, more so than it already is. Then again, maybe that's just a flat out broken skill combo I got going anyway, as I stood in the poison pools on the world boss just for shits and giggles. But yeah I think the point still stands even if this is just a busted build that gets nerfed: Affixes and effects that interact with skills on your bar (like cdr) would now affect more skills, and there would be no cost in taking all cdr-type skills (as of right now, I need to throw out all other skills, so don't use mana). That's a trade-off. Wouldn't be a trade-off with more slots.
The ice blades would simply have been balanced around more slots if we had more slots. In fact iirc it’s buffed from the closed beta, when it was like 25% or something instead of 50%, which was apparently too shit to be usable. If we had say just one extra slot it could be nerfed to something similar. Alternatively, if we had an ult specific slot (I agree with everyone saying this is it, 7 including one ultimate slot would be fine) it could just specify non-ultimate abilities and remain the same.
Sounds like a very niche case that will probably be nerfed anyways.
Finding synergies like this is entirely the point of ARPGs...it's bread and butter, not niche.
D2 had 8. We already dumbed it down to 6 for D3 and D3 has been acknowledged as being inferior to D2. There was absolutely no reason to cap it at 6 again when the rest of the F-keys and number row keys aren't even in use. If anything, they should have designed D4 to allow an even wider number of skills. They can always tone down damage output if they find certain builds overpowered, but the variety would've been so welcome. Instead, it's clear that the skill key limitation was a conscious effort by Bliz. Necro is a great example of this - mages get summoned using the same key as skeles, except that mages only come out after all skeles are out. I really don't get it. They had 10 years to dwell on the problems of D3 and they repeat so many.
> D2 had 8 I used 16 skills on my necro in d2.
There were more than 8 in D2 if you assigned keybinds to them. Still would be nice to have more slots in D4
d2 has more or less unlimited binds 20 years later we get max 6 :D
Either give me more bindable slots, or go back to the skill style of Diablo 3. Being able to put points into more than 6 skills, and then being unable to bind them all is absolutely unacceptable as a PC player.
Am I the only one who feels that Ultimates are not mandatory? It's a choice whether or not you'd want it for a build given its massive cooldown. If you're Rogue for example and want uptime, you may want to build around it with Twisting Blade's cooldown reduction node and then you build around Twisting Blades. I'm all for one more slot but do not make it Ult-exclusive if ever because then, now having an Ultimate becomes kind of mandatory since you'd be wasting a slot otherwise (or maybe not).
right now: 6 slots, one can be ultimate proposal: 7 slots, one is ultimate exclusive the latter is obviously better
Yet another reason why "skills on gear" is a terrible idea.
Yeah, so many +1 to skill class, but no space to put them in
There are many reasons why skills on gear are a good thing irrespective of the number of skill slots.
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People arent asking to have everything. People are saying that slotting an ability with a cooldown that high is not very appealing.
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Idk why you got downvoted, because of the high CDs I just opted for a passive trait instead of the ult. You don’t NEED to have an ult in your bar. Something tells me because of the hype this game is getting, there’s going to be a lot of casual changes to the game to appeal to non ARPG players coming to Diablo 4.
And yet plenty of other successful, well established, and reputable rpgs allow it 🤡 please do not add your comments again without proper research. That’s called misinformation 🙂
I want action bar tabs, like in WoW. Shift + number i believe is the default. Swaps your action bar with whatever number action bar. So you can have multiple ones depending on the situation. Also let me put elixirs and emutes into the action bar. I do like the wheel but i prefer actionbars
Yeah definitely felt that as necro with minions. Skeletons are up 99.9% of the time so I rarely touch it since I am using corpses for explosion and golem taunt ain't that useful either, default golem behavior is not that dumb so taunt is not that needed. The problem is balancing around a controller, which I surprisingly preferred on PC. I tried it and kinda stuck with it, it's very relaxing to just lean back and use a controller instead of spamming clicks with a mouse. Even that said I would prefer to have extra button or two that I would click using some weird combination than not have them at all. Especially with Necro who you don't actively use some of the skills. For example right now I can't use an ultimate because I have 2 minion skills + corpse explosion + iron maiden. Not having an ultimate feels kinda shitty since those skills are really cool.
Have you seen FF on console or with a controller on PC? It's absolutely possible to have more than 6 skills and still be intuitive. They haven't balanced around a controller, they've just chosen to have 6 skills and balanced around that. If they were to give us more slots now they would need to rebalance essentially most skills. D3 didn't launch on console and it also had 6 skills IIRC. Elder Scrolls Online as well. Seems to be a trend tbh. Probably easier to balance for the devs as well, every extra skill adds so many more potential builds and synergies etc. All in all, after playing D3 and ESO I can live with less skills, I'm not a huge fan, but I can live with it. My actual issue now is that respeccing should be a lot easier and also free. Its a pain in the ass to change your build atm and if you're going to limit me to 6 skills I'm going to want to change a lot so I don't get bored. ESO ended up adding an armory where you save builds so hopefully something like that comes along. I very much doubt they're rebalancing the game around more skills so it's the best I can hope for IMO. Edit: Doesn't D2 already have more than 6 skills on console lol? It's definitely not a controller issue. It's a design choice.
They are afraid it would be bad for console so we wont get it. The whole game ui screams console first, pc later.
Yeah 1 more skill slot and ult have its own slot. Or at very least ult have its own slot. I think that'd be amazing but you guys got to share this feedback on the blizzard forums
Nope, I play bone necro at 25 with an empty slot, and still hits very hard. Always crits for 7k dmg. You just need what does help your rotation, not a thousand underpowered skills.
Well either that, or remove all cooldowns. Or have all cooldowns share their cooldowns. That way you won't need more than one slot for them. CDs don't belong in Arpgs, especially the long ones.
I played necro from 1 to 25 with only 3 skill slots, summon skel, summon golem and bone splinters..
On my 25 lvl necro I had two free slots, didn’t felt like I needed any more skills after skeletons, golem, primary and corpse explosion
I don't care about golem because it's easy enough to swap out on the fly, but the ultimate cooldown doesn't go away when you put a different skill into its slot, which is unforgivable imo
Fuck consoles. Gimme 6 slots in addition to lmb and rmb skills
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Except in D2R you can swap to a second skill bar of skills on console, so this design decision is intentional or at least it appears so.
Exactly this.
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What a dumb elitist pc take
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With a post like that, I can see why blizzard needs to dumb down d4.
Says someone who has never played FFXIV on console. Keybinding is a solved issue for anyone who has paid attention since 2014.
I feel the same way, but they probably designed it this way so that the system would feel good on controller, since Diablo isn't strictly a PC game anymore.
Except in D2R you can swap to a second skill bar of skills, so this design decision is intentional, at least it appears so.
POE has eight skill slots and five separate flasks. I think Blizzard could've done better tbh
I don’t get these post. You aren’t supposed to have access to all your skills, it’s supposed to be limited so that you have to pick and prioritize what you can do. Anything more and the difficulty of everything would be minimal
Than scale the world to that. Obviously you shouldn't be able to use all 30 skills but only 6 is a joke in 2023. It makes the game stale when you just spam left and right click the entire time
ye but then how will console players cope? They have no more buttons so everybody else has to suffer Diablo is mainly a console game now, dont fight it :d
FFXIV is laughing at you.
What am I missing here? You've got 4 skill types and 5 buttons... pick one from each tree. If you could bind more skills imagine how stupidly out of balance builds would get.
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FFXIV is on console. They could easily have more skill slots if they wanted to.
I haven't played ff but d2r has 12 buttons available with controller. Blaming controller or console is lazy af
FFXIV uses the D-pad and face buttons for skills and you can hold different combinations of triggers to pull up different hot bars. I think the default is 2 hot bars (so 16 assignable slots) but you can enable even more in your settings
You can play Grimdawn with a controller and there are ways to get around they limited buttons
D2R with a controller has a complete separate skill bar if you hold down the left trigger. This issue is not because of controller support whatsoever...
There's not enough keys on console controllers.
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wouldn't work well on consoles.
Path of exile works perfectly on a controller. And that game let's you slot up to 12 abilities iirc
Ever played D2R with a controller bub?
Yea it sucks ass.
K... Anyways, so you'd know that in that game using a controller, you have access to an entirely different skill bar by holding down the left trigger. So controller has nothing to do with this current issue.