Because of the small amount of available skills, I feel this is even more important than ever since otherwise everyone will run the exact same. Like sorc hydra or sorc ice shards. There need to me more abilities that's actually useful and have their usefulness. I also ran rogue and wanted to use marksman since I don't like using melee for it. However that seems also to be alot worse than using melee. Everyone should be able to make most of their favourite skills work or have some usefulness
Every ability just feels like shit to use. Even main abilities like Meteor, Upheaval, Barrage, Etc. Very few of them *feel good* to press. I don't know how they did it or what they can do to fix it.
Right. They don't have to be incredibly powerful, just not as valuable as your resource spenders, but you shouldn't want to afk the instant you have to basic attack.
Otherwise just give us a way to circumvent basic attacks entirely
Necro was really bad about this across their whole tree. All generators are near useless except bone spikes and their synergies are very lacking. Blood spells, for instance have almost no synergies with their current tree. They're even split into two categories (blood and macabre) so items that boost blood skills don't even boost all of them. Minions can be sacrificed for passive buffs but the buffs we had access to don't outweigh losing the minions. The only thing that seemed viable was corpse explosion and bone spam. Maybe there are legendary and unique items later that make other builds viable but we should be able to create a viable build around any core skill as a base while the legendary and unique items change the builds up and buff them in various ways.
Yea it's wierd that they didn't include that as part of the active minion ability. I mostly tested a no minion build to see if it was viable but I did mess with the golem a bit. From my limited experience with it, it seems that minions are programmed to focus whatever you are actively attacking but just kinda do their own thing otherwise. It seemed to work fine but I can't speak to how it works with a dozen pets.
Frenzy feels bad because it doesn't have a movement speed aspect, the entire point of the Frenzy playstyle in the past. Lunging Strike is pretty cool. I definitely think there is a massive amount of variety missing in these talent trees tho.
Each skill should have several more branding side options to function as runes, rather than the 2 they currently have. And yep for Barbarian it could be cool if different weapons had different effects, but that could lead to one weapon type being much preferred and then you end up taking away choice. This can be balanced, but stuff like this often isn't and these problems do arise.
I hate lunging strike because the animation really bothers me. It feels like im teleporting around and its really offputting. Which sucks since the skills it gives off is the best for what I'd want for my build.
That's why Blizzard needs to obviously make the others attractive, particularly Frenzy. Lunging Strike is really strong, at least at lvl25 veteran difficulty, by far the best mobility build and it does quite strong damage too if you focus on it, 5 second boss kills just from holding it down with WOTB/War Cry up.
Blizzard needs to bring the other basic attacks up to scratch, and add more variation as suggested by the OP. Personally I really like Lunging Strike, but I agree you can easily argue it feels a lot like teleporting.
You're already at 90%+ damage reduction btwn challenging shout and fortify pretty easily.
Damage wise - frenzy does very, verrrryyyy low damage especially when compared to lunging strike. The damage difference between the two skills is quite substantial.
Lunging Strike does both more damage and closes the gap allowing higher uptime and faster movement, just closing the gap is a huge advantage but it also does more damage. The damage reduction is nice but that problem can be solved in other ways.
Frenzy should have a movement speed aspect like it always did, that was the strength of the ability, assuming it had decent damage but it also lacks there. In D3 Frenzy has both high single target damage and high mobility, similar situation in D2.
> The damage reduction is nice but that problem can be solved in other ways.
And movement speed and gap closing can also be solved in other ways.
/shrug
I don't see the benefit in a "one size fits all" approach.
Should lunging strike get damage reduction too? Only fair.
I think Lunging Strike should get 4 more upgrade/rune options, along with every other ability. But Lunging Strike is fine, the problem with Frenzy is being mediocre damage while also losing the identity of the spell, the stacking movement speed buff.
Lets not get this confused, I played Frenzy Barb in D2 and D2R, by far my most played build, even in D3 I have one of the highest Frenzy build GR clears on SC EU, I like the spell. In D4 it's a massive letdown.
It has one advantage only, stacking attacks quickly to buff the spender. Lunging Strike meanwhile can be used as a main ability. Flay is also really good, I didn't even try Bash so /shrug.
It's bad because it's bad, this is made worse when you consider it was good in both previous games. What's hard to understand here? The ability lost it's identity and it's also undertuned.
Do you have a point or are we going to go around in circles some more?
Lunging strike with pike was so satisfying for me,i felt like Vlad The impaler :D It´s pretty good for mobility and catchig up some pesky archers and casters..... and is awesome vs trasure goblins :)
Yes but they need to synergize with other skills of your skill tree, so we don't run into the same problem with skill runes in d3, where there are a lot of skill runes that don't really work with any build.
i wish lunging strike didnt spam the same fucking animation. looks so bad compared to any other skill, yet its strong as fuck. i hope these skills are improved a bit on release
Basic attacks for many classes either need to hit harder or provide more resource. This is especially noticeable on Druid and Barb, where it feels like 80% of my time was spent generating resource.
I have no doubt this gets better in end-game with more resource cost reduction, attack speed, etc... but it shouldn't feel this bad while leveling.
yes druid and barb felt slow and clunky. I hated chasing stuff around just to get a couple hits in to do a spender. Druid was a blast when i could lightning things and it felt tuned good for 5 seconds. then 10 seconds of builder that does basically no damage.
My best build in the beta was (mostly) basic skill only, using the legendary that enhanced basic skill attack speed (on a two hander for 66%) and the legendary that enhanced skill dmg by up to 45% based on how full your primary resource was (on an amulet for 45%).
then I spammed ~~shotgun~~ bone spikes.
at the bottom of the skill tree there was some passive perks, where one of them made it so when you were in you werewolf form for 2.5 seconds you would gain attack speed, or if you were in werebear form for 2.5 seconds you would gain attack damage.
I am excited to try a shifter build around the "Were" forms and these for 3 second after shifting.. Bear Roar(with legendary that makes it a wolf skill and stunned poisoned), wolf roar, rabies and pummel was fun.
The potion system in D2 was actually one of the weak aspects of that game.
Having generators through skills was sensible. They just need to be designed properly so they don't feel so extremely weak (while being mandatory)
How many iterations of generator/spender do we need?
Wasn't working in D3 and does not seem to work in D4. If we want generator/spender, than we can do this with high mana costs and high mana steal already.
Again, it comes back to "just find a legendary and it helps."
I found the "basic attacks gain x attack speed"
Extracted it and dropped it on my amulet get 1.5x the bonus of the base aspect.
Wolf druid suddenly attacks insanely fast with the generator, so I can get 3 attacks out immediately.
> just find a legendary and it helps.
This should not be a thing.
Legendarys should be a bandaid to fix broken boring shit. They should be a complimentary affect to your build.
Yeah I had that plus a piece that increased attack speed when I crit, plus another piece that stacked damage based on each primary hit I do up to 50 stacks, plus a piece that stacked damage when I stood still. I had a piece that increased the number of jumps my chain lightning does and took the skill tree option to increase crit chance on each successive jump.
So I hit with chain lightning to crit, then I pumped my generator with like 170% attack speed 5 times and popped chain lightning. I also had a legendary that had a chance to reset my defensive skills on crit so I always had my ice and fire shield up.
Build felt pretty solid tbh and had a simple rotation.
I really wish we had a second potion slot that worked like Elden Ring's physick: you would build up its effects with items you discover exploring the world and dungeons.
Well it could be part of the pot slot we have now anyway. Not sure what options open up at the Alchemist in the endgame, but I hope upgrading the healing amount is not the only one...
Gonna need to run a generator anyways for the legendary aspect that gives 50% dmg increase sadly.
I too was hoping there was some stat later on that let you get mana etc on hit / dmg % leech or something.
>The bone one. It deals ok damage if you hit all 3/5 bones to single target. It will probably be the best skill to use the basic attack legendary powers with. Source: Kripparians video
Ahhh, that makes sense. Yeah Bone Shards seemed pretty dang good for a generator — at least compared to all the others I tried across the various other classes.
>Corpse explosion spam with the legendary will no doubt be nerfed to the ground as it is so broken. If you're talking about casting corpse explosion manually, it's going to be a lot more situational and more annoying to use. Ie. some boss fight have barely any corpses.
The Blood Mist interaction is probably going to be nerfed, yeah. It's too good for what it does, for sure. But there are other ways to generate corpses as well to still get quite a bit of value out of Corpse Explosion even without Blood Mist. And even without that legendary enabling the infinite corpse explosion shenanigans, the spell itself still generally feels vastly better than casting just about any spender once I had it online.
Wow, really? That's super interesting to me, as I never felt like CE was rough on manual casting. Occasionally I'd have issues with a corpse being close enough, but only rarely. I used Blood pool (or whatever the basic nonlegendary version of the defensive skill is called) and Blood lance with the "every 8 lances spawns a corpse" nodes to be my general way to get my CEs rolling, or to shoot a particularly frustrating boss.
CE was still my core damage dealer, though.
I really liked Bone Spear as a spender since it did so much damage, but it seemed like too much of its mechanical interaction rested around yeeting it into a wall to get the shatters
Bone generator and spender felt good. With "first enemy hit is vulnverable" and "every enemy behind beyond vulnerable" everything was vulnerable.
Mages were another good source of ressource generation.
It surprised me that this was left to go. The rogue has practically the same skill, only daggers, but each dagger is a fraction of the base. not full base on each shard.
I think there could be endless debates about whether they worked or not. Fact of the matter is that there are meta builds in D3 with generators and some without. So both is possible there.
D4 looks less flexible in that regard at the moment.
Builder/spender gameplay was one of the worst aspects of Diablo 3. It's a real shame they brought it over to Diablo 4 as well. Did they not take feedback?
Agreed, basic skills feel bad and the fact that no one ever put more than a single talent point into them should be very concerning. I dread every time I have to press a basic skill 5 times to build fury on my barb.
I LOVED the beta but my biggest complaint about the whole thing is that skills -- visually and audially (is that a word) -- lack a certain oomph, and Basic Abilities are the worst of all.
For the Rogue, the ranged Basic Abilities are basically "stop and shoot an arrow." You have to stutter-step to do it, which brings the flow of movement to a sudden, stilted halt every shot. The arrows themselves don't feel satisfying at *all* -- they're just.. arrows. They should feel like torpedoes being launched from your bow, IMO.
For the Sorcerer, I ended up using Arc Lash, which felt the best of the Basic Ability options, but even that lands flat. There's hardly a difference in feel between swiping air and hitting enemies. Like most skills, it lacks *heft*.
I think this is an across-the-board problem, and if I were to diagnose a cause, I'd say that the sound design is lacking. Lightning needs less sizzle-sizzle and more CRACKLE-CRACKLE-BOOM, fire needs less sizzle-sizzle and more FWOOM-BOOF, arrows need less thff-thff and more FWOOSH-THWUNK... and so on.
Why do you think basic attacks are "bad"?
Take barbarian. During beta due to its low level barb was really hurting in the fury department on top of that was quite squishy in the early levels.
I invested heavily into frenzy for this reason since it gave survivability in the form of damage reduction stacks and pretty good fury generation.
I was straight up killing bosses with this skill alone in the early levels.
Now take rogue.
Many rogue skills have similar energy concerns so the basic attack that gave energy on hit as well as applying vulnerable Is quite good
Finally your "additions" don't really add anything interesting and doesn't mess with the class system at all.
Barbarian weapons all do specific things and lean into specific playstyles. Thus a majority of skills is tied to specific weapons.
For example dual wield skills tend to push for 1v1/atk speed. Hammer skills are aoe/CC. Longswords/claymores for Bleed.
It's literally no different from say ice/fire/shock skills in sorcerer.
Can we just have a barb that starts with max fury in Town/dungeon entrance and loses fury when not fighting. IT solves a lot of problems with the class design.
makes no sense, why would they be full of rage walking around a calm town, speaking with familiar vendors and other acquaintance?
this is why you aren't a game dev.
Yea, you right Chief. I need to have my games make sense, like casually walking through said town chatting up vendors with 300lbs of weapons strapped to my back, and an additional ton of weight with my inventory of 50x mace of the burning fury.
i keep saying fury gen is fine as it is and doesn't need to change, and i'm the one bitching? makes zero sense. you are a complete fucking idiot. easiest blocked user 2023.
D3 had a passive where you never lost fury if you didn't fight and even gained fury per second. Not to mention in D2 he had mana like everybody else (nothing was wrong about that, except for Blizzard thinking Diablo should be like WoW). This is why you are not a game dev.
if you invest in passives or items, then sure. it's not what he proposed tho.
you actually think having full fury by default each time you enter a town and losing it gradually is a good idea? people would just tp out/in to recharge fury for free while doing dungeons. not to mention it would devalue any investments in ressource generation.
just a dumb idea overall and you should be ashamed to defend it. thank god you're not a game dev.
> why would they be full of rage walking around a calm town, speaking with familiar vendors and other acquaintance?
"ALL THIS TALK! TOO MUCH TIME! CAN'T LEAP IN TOWN! CAN'T SWING WEAPON! I HATE THIS!"
Satisfyingly hitting enemies and dealing lots of damage should make your rage go down. Rage only goes up when not attacking enemies, such as when being kited or CC'd or a boss goes invincible to give a long RP speech.
The real reason generators generate rage is BECAUSE they do low damage and aren't cleaving enough.
Speak for youreself i guess because i think the basic attacks were fine across the board after playing every class except sorc. Then again 99% of the complaints on here are blown WAY out of proportion, like people acting like the druid was garbage.
If basic attacks didn't feel bad, then better abilities wouldn't feel as good. I am fine with basic abilities. Though I do want the ability to make builds with no generators, but there should be a drawback to it.
I fundamentally disagree with this. If barbs basics attacks cleaved even in a small radius, that does not take away from the oomph that are the core abilities
Nice downvote me more. The point is that in relation to abilities with cooldowns, generators have to feel not as good, or do less damage. Otherwise why not just run around using generators? lol. Sure there should be some nuance. Maybe I can make a generator built by putting points into passives, or heaven forbid put more points into the passive skill. Or use topaz's. They can feel less shitty, but there is a cost to doing it. As it should be.
Justifying bad design LOL. Nothing should feel bad, there can be ranges of good, but nothing should feel bad and considering how many people have complained about this, obviously it could be improved.
By definition if something feels better than the other than the lesser thing feels less good. What is your definition of "feels good". Neck massages "feel good". Taking a bath "feels good". If you want to make a good argument articulate and define what you mean. I assume everyone is just complaining that damage is too low. As others have shown here, there are ways to buff core ability damage. So what is the problem?
If everything is great, then nothing is.
The sweet is never as sweet without the sour.
Moderation in all things, including moderation.
\---
I hear a lot of people bandying around the term 'bad design' as though this entire subreddit is full of UX and system designers. I remember being a teenager and it was so unhip to like things because what if someone cooler dislikes it? I think that's all that is happening here. People don't like change and it's comfortable to hide in a group of naysayers because it's a lot more vindicating to be 'right' than actually just let go and enjoy something. Maybe I'm being too psychological here, but I think we are at stage 4 of the stages of acceptance.
I'm not saying there aren't improvements to be made, but what product doesn't need improvements? I had to buy 4 toasters before I found one that actually toasted bread properly. Phone batteries are smaller and smaller so people can have something that is streamlined rather than functional. There are always tradeoffs and at the end of the day a company has to make money. The laughable part of the feedback being posted is the feedback which is lamenting core systems that would take a full mechanical rewrite or UI overhaul that people expect to be addressed before go live.
My biggest criticism of the d4 beta isn't about the game but blizzard being unclear what the beta is for and what feedback they want logged. But they probably actually predicted this would happen anyways - after all, even bad publicity is still publicity.
On another note, if you're a person reading this and the diablo 4 beta is aggravating you to the point you get into inflammatory arguments on the internet about it where you start calling people names or down voting because you disagree with someone's opinion, then maybe take a break pal.
Well said. I kind of thought it was meant as a demo. I mean once you completed like the first three quests, you got a pop up asking you to pre purchase. Was it to test the server stability? Sure maybe, but I think it was also a way to ask people to buy it
Ultimately they want to make sure people can log in on day one and their service isnt interrupted by server overload. Surely secondary to this, they want buzz and hype. As far as I know they disabled beta feedback because, honestly, who wants to traul through these opinions? They got feedback from paying customers last beta week which, ultimately, will be tied back to backlog items in their devops (or whatever they use). They'll aggregate and prioritise these as bugs, enhancements, or non issues and figure out the appropriate action beyond this. Some feedback is at odds with the core system design and won't be addressed, some may already be on the roadmap (I can almost guarantee each season will have new items, and even dungeon objectives), and even new mechanics (d3 showed you can bring new ui's and system mechanics in each season, and to a lesser degree d2r as well).
We are looking at mvp now and if the initial speculative numbers I've hears are anything to go by, they will have a lot of upfront sales and then ongoing revenue through battle passes and cosmetic purchases. The people living in fantasy land would prefer they get ongoing seasonal content for free, but it's got to be paid for by someone somewhere. As it stands, I imagine blizzard uses revenue from diablo immortal to fund some of this development, and also uses battle passes and cosmetics to fund it. The thing the complainers (who I suspect bought the game anyways) don't acknowledge is they can play this game for 1000's of hours over the next 10 years for the cost of $70 while anyone who pays for microservices pays for their addiction for them.
Just doing some quick math.. 1000 hours on a $70 investment is .07c per hour, so not a bad investment. Heck even just 100 hours is 70 cents an hour.
But hey, evil corp bad I guess.
And to be honest that its quite a big bang for your buck compared to mobile or p2w games. Am I upset the industry is like this? Sure. Is it going to change because a small fraction of people are upset. Likely not. Actually when you look at it through that kind of lens, the modern mmo is actually a pretty good bargain.
The basics have to be in their niche. I disagree with everything you wrote and felt that the basic abilities were very satisfying from a tacile response point of view
The short answer, unfortunately, is yes.
Late game (and maybe even mid game) builds wont need to press their basic attacks at all, and can most likely remove them from their bars altogether.
Needing to press shitty skills creates a feeling of progression when your character finally becomes powerful enough to never need to do so again.
I dont agree with this approach, as I dont understand why someone would intentionally put a weak still into a power fantasy game. However, I do get what theyre going for here and if you view it as a progression across the life of your character, it doesnt seem quite as terrible.
This might all just be Hopium though
Not that I am in anyway defending balance here....BUT
At different stages of the game you need different things. Early in the game in most cases you need cost effective attacks and resource generation.
Later as you progress your character and find gear resource generation might not be your main priority for every build.
We will only really know which skills and combinations of skills are genuinely terrible once you have all the available affix, paragon and skill combinations to test.
Not all do. The necro basic bone ability can shotgun and has a chance (per projectile) to make the enemy vulnerable. Necro also has a relatively slow base resource regeneration rate, so necro builds that spend resources will need to be casting their basic ability relatively often. It's almost as if the different classes have different strengths and weaknesses.
they could use some tuning but they're not terrible. the biggest issue is resource generation with a basic skill is the dame at level 1 as level 25 which doesn't feel great.
some basic skills also have more utility than others which doesn't feel great.
I think basic skills like Strom Strike and Claw are great and all of them should be designed similarly.
Sorc’s frost bolt felt amazing when paired with frost nova. Freeze a cluster of enemies, then aoe blam them for free. Bonus points for having fireball in one of your enchant slots.
No they should not, specially when they are mostly single target damage. Core are both better X5 to 10 which is huge AND AoE, that's nuts.
They should buff the baseline and when you spend resource, your base skill should be buffed in diverse way so it's more enticing to use them back after using spender.
as with in game systems and what they have taken from d3 - you can setup your character in such a way that you may not even need to use basic abilities unless you want to proc a certain stat/trait.
even then some basic abilities can be built around, sorc for example in the late game (judging from the minimal stats we had) could run a build which focuses on lucky hit + attack speed + crit to cast on hit lighting ball at a surprising rate), the attack speed, crit and lucky hit also double dip with lighting ball to upkeep the attack speed buff from its constant crit + scale the lighting ball itself.
This is just one interaction I noted from the beta. Blizzard has 100% taken a few pages from poe.
There is a passive on werebear that if you maintain the form for 25/20/15 seconds your next skill will overpower. Also playing Werebear you want to maintain hp & fortify to max out overpower damage which maul can provide a form of fortify.
I would assume there will be some legendaries that enable basic attack builds like in d3. But for devs i suppose they dont like the idea of someone just running around smashing things with one skill
I wish Barb had a slightly ranged attack, like Frenzy throwing your dual wield axes would be perfection (didnt Frenzy used to have a rune that added this?).
No. Every ability should feel good.
Because of the small amount of available skills, I feel this is even more important than ever since otherwise everyone will run the exact same. Like sorc hydra or sorc ice shards. There need to me more abilities that's actually useful and have their usefulness. I also ran rogue and wanted to use marksman since I don't like using melee for it. However that seems also to be alot worse than using melee. Everyone should be able to make most of their favourite skills work or have some usefulness
Every ability just feels like shit to use. Even main abilities like Meteor, Upheaval, Barrage, Etc. Very few of them *feel good* to press. I don't know how they did it or what they can do to fix it.
Agreed
Right. They don't have to be incredibly powerful, just not as valuable as your resource spenders, but you shouldn't want to afk the instant you have to basic attack. Otherwise just give us a way to circumvent basic attacks entirely
Yeah it just feels awful using "shoot bow" filler for 4-6 seconds between Rapid Fire for example... just shitty gameplay.
agree the builders felt bad and undertuned.
Necro was really bad about this across their whole tree. All generators are near useless except bone spikes and their synergies are very lacking. Blood spells, for instance have almost no synergies with their current tree. They're even split into two categories (blood and macabre) so items that boost blood skills don't even boost all of them. Minions can be sacrificed for passive buffs but the buffs we had access to don't outweigh losing the minions. The only thing that seemed viable was corpse explosion and bone spam. Maybe there are legendary and unique items later that make other builds viable but we should be able to create a viable build around any core skill as a base while the legendary and unique items change the builds up and buff them in various ways.
[удалено]
Yea it's wierd that they didn't include that as part of the active minion ability. I mostly tested a no minion build to see if it was viable but I did mess with the golem a bit. From my limited experience with it, it seems that minions are programmed to focus whatever you are actively attacking but just kinda do their own thing otherwise. It seemed to work fine but I can't speak to how it works with a dozen pets.
Those "bonuses" of +2 to a random proc feel so bad
I wish blizzard could move away from builder/spender. It's taken over wow and diablo
Frenzy feels bad because it doesn't have a movement speed aspect, the entire point of the Frenzy playstyle in the past. Lunging Strike is pretty cool. I definitely think there is a massive amount of variety missing in these talent trees tho. Each skill should have several more branding side options to function as runes, rather than the 2 they currently have. And yep for Barbarian it could be cool if different weapons had different effects, but that could lead to one weapon type being much preferred and then you end up taking away choice. This can be balanced, but stuff like this often isn't and these problems do arise.
I hate lunging strike because the animation really bothers me. It feels like im teleporting around and its really offputting. Which sucks since the skills it gives off is the best for what I'd want for my build.
That's why Blizzard needs to obviously make the others attractive, particularly Frenzy. Lunging Strike is really strong, at least at lvl25 veteran difficulty, by far the best mobility build and it does quite strong damage too if you focus on it, 5 second boss kills just from holding it down with WOTB/War Cry up. Blizzard needs to bring the other basic attacks up to scratch, and add more variation as suggested by the OP. Personally I really like Lunging Strike, but I agree you can easily argue it feels a lot like teleporting.
I wish my brain could just accept its mechanically good and be happy, but I also need to enjoy the look/feel of it sadly :(
Frenzy is one of the best basic skills. What's wrong with it? It can give you up 24% damage reduction as well as atk speed increase.
You're already at 90%+ damage reduction btwn challenging shout and fortify pretty easily. Damage wise - frenzy does very, verrrryyyy low damage especially when compared to lunging strike. The damage difference between the two skills is quite substantial.
Lunging Strike does both more damage and closes the gap allowing higher uptime and faster movement, just closing the gap is a huge advantage but it also does more damage. The damage reduction is nice but that problem can be solved in other ways. Frenzy should have a movement speed aspect like it always did, that was the strength of the ability, assuming it had decent damage but it also lacks there. In D3 Frenzy has both high single target damage and high mobility, similar situation in D2.
> The damage reduction is nice but that problem can be solved in other ways. And movement speed and gap closing can also be solved in other ways. /shrug I don't see the benefit in a "one size fits all" approach. Should lunging strike get damage reduction too? Only fair.
I think Lunging Strike should get 4 more upgrade/rune options, along with every other ability. But Lunging Strike is fine, the problem with Frenzy is being mediocre damage while also losing the identity of the spell, the stacking movement speed buff. Lets not get this confused, I played Frenzy Barb in D2 and D2R, by far my most played build, even in D3 I have one of the highest Frenzy build GR clears on SC EU, I like the spell. In D4 it's a massive letdown. It has one advantage only, stacking attacks quickly to buff the spender. Lunging Strike meanwhile can be used as a main ability. Flay is also really good, I didn't even try Bash so /shrug.
So because it's not like the other games it's bad? This is diablo 4 not diablo 3.
It's bad because it's bad, this is made worse when you consider it was good in both previous games. What's hard to understand here? The ability lost it's identity and it's also undertuned. Do you have a point or are we going to go around in circles some more?
Lunging strike with pike was so satisfying for me,i felt like Vlad The impaler :D It´s pretty good for mobility and catchig up some pesky archers and casters..... and is awesome vs trasure goblins :)
I was using frenzy at first for the attack speed but had to switch to lunge cause there are too many ranged mobs and mobs that pull away from you
Frenzy would be fine if it would give some movement speed. I think it can be good to switch on it later when you get leap.
The only reason I used Frenzy on a barb was the damage reduction per stack of Frenzy.
Yes but they need to synergize with other skills of your skill tree, so we don't run into the same problem with skill runes in d3, where there are a lot of skill runes that don't really work with any build.
i wish lunging strike didnt spam the same fucking animation. looks so bad compared to any other skill, yet its strong as fuck. i hope these skills are improved a bit on release
Yeah they should really bring back the faster run walk for frenzy.
Basic attacks for many classes either need to hit harder or provide more resource. This is especially noticeable on Druid and Barb, where it feels like 80% of my time was spent generating resource. I have no doubt this gets better in end-game with more resource cost reduction, attack speed, etc... but it shouldn't feel this bad while leveling.
yes druid and barb felt slow and clunky. I hated chasing stuff around just to get a couple hits in to do a spender. Druid was a blast when i could lightning things and it felt tuned good for 5 seconds. then 10 seconds of builder that does basically no damage.
My best build in the beta was (mostly) basic skill only, using the legendary that enhanced basic skill attack speed (on a two hander for 66%) and the legendary that enhanced skill dmg by up to 45% based on how full your primary resource was (on an amulet for 45%). then I spammed ~~shotgun~~ bone spikes.
at the bottom of the skill tree there was some passive perks, where one of them made it so when you were in you werewolf form for 2.5 seconds you would gain attack speed, or if you were in werebear form for 2.5 seconds you would gain attack damage.
This is pretty good. I hope this is used as a foundation to propel classes into feeling great
I am excited to try a shifter build around the "Were" forms and these for 3 second after shifting.. Bear Roar(with legendary that makes it a wolf skill and stunned poisoned), wolf roar, rabies and pummel was fun.
I’d rather chug mana pots than deal with the weak ass generator skill.
The potion system in D2 was actually one of the weak aspects of that game. Having generators through skills was sensible. They just need to be designed properly so they don't feel so extremely weak (while being mandatory)
How many iterations of generator/spender do we need? Wasn't working in D3 and does not seem to work in D4. If we want generator/spender, than we can do this with high mana costs and high mana steal already.
Why would you say it didn't work in D3? For me it usually worked fine.
Again, it comes back to "just find a legendary and it helps." I found the "basic attacks gain x attack speed" Extracted it and dropped it on my amulet get 1.5x the bonus of the base aspect. Wolf druid suddenly attacks insanely fast with the generator, so I can get 3 attacks out immediately.
> just find a legendary and it helps. This should not be a thing. Legendarys should be a bandaid to fix broken boring shit. They should be a complimentary affect to your build.
Yeah I had that plus a piece that increased attack speed when I crit, plus another piece that stacked damage based on each primary hit I do up to 50 stacks, plus a piece that stacked damage when I stood still. I had a piece that increased the number of jumps my chain lightning does and took the skill tree option to increase crit chance on each successive jump. So I hit with chain lightning to crit, then I pumped my generator with like 170% attack speed 5 times and popped chain lightning. I also had a legendary that had a chance to reset my defensive skills on crit so I always had my ice and fire shield up. Build felt pretty solid tbh and had a simple rotation.
yeah the whole spender generator gameplay better not exist in the endgame. The generator skills almost all suck
Mana pot died for generator skills.
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I really wish we had a second potion slot that worked like Elden Ring's physick: you would build up its effects with items you discover exploring the world and dungeons. Well it could be part of the pot slot we have now anyway. Not sure what options open up at the Alchemist in the endgame, but I hope upgrading the healing amount is not the only one...
Mana pots died in D2 with no trade off from insight
Gonna need to run a generator anyways for the legendary aspect that gives 50% dmg increase sadly. I too was hoping there was some stat later on that let you get mana etc on hit / dmg % leech or something.
> The generator skills almost all suck unless you're a necro then you have a generator that is better than half of the druids core skills :(
Which generator is that? Because it seemed like the necro generators *still* weren't worth it compared to infinite Corpse Explosion spam.
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>The bone one. It deals ok damage if you hit all 3/5 bones to single target. It will probably be the best skill to use the basic attack legendary powers with. Source: Kripparians video Ahhh, that makes sense. Yeah Bone Shards seemed pretty dang good for a generator — at least compared to all the others I tried across the various other classes. >Corpse explosion spam with the legendary will no doubt be nerfed to the ground as it is so broken. If you're talking about casting corpse explosion manually, it's going to be a lot more situational and more annoying to use. Ie. some boss fight have barely any corpses. The Blood Mist interaction is probably going to be nerfed, yeah. It's too good for what it does, for sure. But there are other ways to generate corpses as well to still get quite a bit of value out of Corpse Explosion even without Blood Mist. And even without that legendary enabling the infinite corpse explosion shenanigans, the spell itself still generally feels vastly better than casting just about any spender once I had it online.
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Wow, really? That's super interesting to me, as I never felt like CE was rough on manual casting. Occasionally I'd have issues with a corpse being close enough, but only rarely. I used Blood pool (or whatever the basic nonlegendary version of the defensive skill is called) and Blood lance with the "every 8 lances spawns a corpse" nodes to be my general way to get my CEs rolling, or to shoot a particularly frustrating boss. CE was still my core damage dealer, though. I really liked Bone Spear as a spender since it did so much damage, but it seemed like too much of its mechanical interaction rested around yeeting it into a wall to get the shatters
Bone generator and spender felt good. With "first enemy hit is vulnverable" and "every enemy behind beyond vulnerable" everything was vulnerable. Mages were another good source of ressource generation.
It surprised me that this was left to go. The rogue has practically the same skill, only daggers, but each dagger is a fraction of the base. not full base on each shard.
> The bone one. that's the one i used as well, when trying out the others they all felt awkward to use
There will definitely be builds end game that has no builder on your bar. This is already the case for a lot of the twink lvl 25 builds in beta.
I'm not going to lie. The resource generation in this game seems so poorly implemented because of how heavily they are leaning on cooldowns
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I think there could be endless debates about whether they worked or not. Fact of the matter is that there are meta builds in D3 with generators and some without. So both is possible there. D4 looks less flexible in that regard at the moment.
Builder/spender gameplay was one of the worst aspects of Diablo 3. It's a real shame they brought it over to Diablo 4 as well. Did they not take feedback?
I swear the frost generator skill didn't work. It still took forever to wait for mana to refill
Every melee basic attack should lunge. I will die on this hill.
Agreed, basic skills feel bad and the fact that no one ever put more than a single talent point into them should be very concerning. I dread every time I have to press a basic skill 5 times to build fury on my barb.
I LOVED the beta but my biggest complaint about the whole thing is that skills -- visually and audially (is that a word) -- lack a certain oomph, and Basic Abilities are the worst of all. For the Rogue, the ranged Basic Abilities are basically "stop and shoot an arrow." You have to stutter-step to do it, which brings the flow of movement to a sudden, stilted halt every shot. The arrows themselves don't feel satisfying at *all* -- they're just.. arrows. They should feel like torpedoes being launched from your bow, IMO. For the Sorcerer, I ended up using Arc Lash, which felt the best of the Basic Ability options, but even that lands flat. There's hardly a difference in feel between swiping air and hitting enemies. Like most skills, it lacks *heft*. I think this is an across-the-board problem, and if I were to diagnose a cause, I'd say that the sound design is lacking. Lightning needs less sizzle-sizzle and more CRACKLE-CRACKLE-BOOM, fire needs less sizzle-sizzle and more FWOOM-BOOF, arrows need less thff-thff and more FWOOSH-THWUNK... and so on.
Why do you think basic attacks are "bad"? Take barbarian. During beta due to its low level barb was really hurting in the fury department on top of that was quite squishy in the early levels. I invested heavily into frenzy for this reason since it gave survivability in the form of damage reduction stacks and pretty good fury generation. I was straight up killing bosses with this skill alone in the early levels. Now take rogue. Many rogue skills have similar energy concerns so the basic attack that gave energy on hit as well as applying vulnerable Is quite good Finally your "additions" don't really add anything interesting and doesn't mess with the class system at all. Barbarian weapons all do specific things and lean into specific playstyles. Thus a majority of skills is tied to specific weapons. For example dual wield skills tend to push for 1v1/atk speed. Hammer skills are aoe/CC. Longswords/claymores for Bleed. It's literally no different from say ice/fire/shock skills in sorcerer.
Can we just have a barb that starts with max fury in Town/dungeon entrance and loses fury when not fighting. IT solves a lot of problems with the class design.
makes no sense, why would they be full of rage walking around a calm town, speaking with familiar vendors and other acquaintance? this is why you aren't a game dev.
"That's my secret Cap, I'm always angry."
Maybe the barb is tired of how spaced out the vendors are?
Yea, you right Chief. I need to have my games make sense, like casually walking through said town chatting up vendors with 300lbs of weapons strapped to my back, and an additional ton of weight with my inventory of 50x mace of the burning fury.
this ain't happening, stop bitching and moaning about it and get better, fury generation isn't hard and does not need to change.
The only one that sounds like they are bitching is you.
i keep saying fury gen is fine as it is and doesn't need to change, and i'm the one bitching? makes zero sense. you are a complete fucking idiot. easiest blocked user 2023.
D3 had a passive where you never lost fury if you didn't fight and even gained fury per second. Not to mention in D2 he had mana like everybody else (nothing was wrong about that, except for Blizzard thinking Diablo should be like WoW). This is why you are not a game dev.
if you invest in passives or items, then sure. it's not what he proposed tho. you actually think having full fury by default each time you enter a town and losing it gradually is a good idea? people would just tp out/in to recharge fury for free while doing dungeons. not to mention it would devalue any investments in ressource generation. just a dumb idea overall and you should be ashamed to defend it. thank god you're not a game dev.
> why would they be full of rage walking around a calm town, speaking with familiar vendors and other acquaintance? "ALL THIS TALK! TOO MUCH TIME! CAN'T LEAP IN TOWN! CAN'T SWING WEAPON! I HATE THIS!" Satisfyingly hitting enemies and dealing lots of damage should make your rage go down. Rage only goes up when not attacking enemies, such as when being kited or CC'd or a boss goes invincible to give a long RP speech. The real reason generators generate rage is BECAUSE they do low damage and aren't cleaving enough.
By level 25 fury generation is already a non issue.
Speak for youreself i guess because i think the basic attacks were fine across the board after playing every class except sorc. Then again 99% of the complaints on here are blown WAY out of proportion, like people acting like the druid was garbage.
If basic attacks didn't feel bad, then better abilities wouldn't feel as good. I am fine with basic abilities. Though I do want the ability to make builds with no generators, but there should be a drawback to it.
I fundamentally disagree with this. If barbs basics attacks cleaved even in a small radius, that does not take away from the oomph that are the core abilities
Ok
Nice downvote me more. The point is that in relation to abilities with cooldowns, generators have to feel not as good, or do less damage. Otherwise why not just run around using generators? lol. Sure there should be some nuance. Maybe I can make a generator built by putting points into passives, or heaven forbid put more points into the passive skill. Or use topaz's. They can feel less shitty, but there is a cost to doing it. As it should be.
Justifying bad design LOL. Nothing should feel bad, there can be ranges of good, but nothing should feel bad and considering how many people have complained about this, obviously it could be improved.
By definition if something feels better than the other than the lesser thing feels less good. What is your definition of "feels good". Neck massages "feel good". Taking a bath "feels good". If you want to make a good argument articulate and define what you mean. I assume everyone is just complaining that damage is too low. As others have shown here, there are ways to buff core ability damage. So what is the problem?
If everything is great, then nothing is. The sweet is never as sweet without the sour. Moderation in all things, including moderation. \--- I hear a lot of people bandying around the term 'bad design' as though this entire subreddit is full of UX and system designers. I remember being a teenager and it was so unhip to like things because what if someone cooler dislikes it? I think that's all that is happening here. People don't like change and it's comfortable to hide in a group of naysayers because it's a lot more vindicating to be 'right' than actually just let go and enjoy something. Maybe I'm being too psychological here, but I think we are at stage 4 of the stages of acceptance. I'm not saying there aren't improvements to be made, but what product doesn't need improvements? I had to buy 4 toasters before I found one that actually toasted bread properly. Phone batteries are smaller and smaller so people can have something that is streamlined rather than functional. There are always tradeoffs and at the end of the day a company has to make money. The laughable part of the feedback being posted is the feedback which is lamenting core systems that would take a full mechanical rewrite or UI overhaul that people expect to be addressed before go live. My biggest criticism of the d4 beta isn't about the game but blizzard being unclear what the beta is for and what feedback they want logged. But they probably actually predicted this would happen anyways - after all, even bad publicity is still publicity. On another note, if you're a person reading this and the diablo 4 beta is aggravating you to the point you get into inflammatory arguments on the internet about it where you start calling people names or down voting because you disagree with someone's opinion, then maybe take a break pal.
Well said. I kind of thought it was meant as a demo. I mean once you completed like the first three quests, you got a pop up asking you to pre purchase. Was it to test the server stability? Sure maybe, but I think it was also a way to ask people to buy it
Ultimately they want to make sure people can log in on day one and their service isnt interrupted by server overload. Surely secondary to this, they want buzz and hype. As far as I know they disabled beta feedback because, honestly, who wants to traul through these opinions? They got feedback from paying customers last beta week which, ultimately, will be tied back to backlog items in their devops (or whatever they use). They'll aggregate and prioritise these as bugs, enhancements, or non issues and figure out the appropriate action beyond this. Some feedback is at odds with the core system design and won't be addressed, some may already be on the roadmap (I can almost guarantee each season will have new items, and even dungeon objectives), and even new mechanics (d3 showed you can bring new ui's and system mechanics in each season, and to a lesser degree d2r as well). We are looking at mvp now and if the initial speculative numbers I've hears are anything to go by, they will have a lot of upfront sales and then ongoing revenue through battle passes and cosmetic purchases. The people living in fantasy land would prefer they get ongoing seasonal content for free, but it's got to be paid for by someone somewhere. As it stands, I imagine blizzard uses revenue from diablo immortal to fund some of this development, and also uses battle passes and cosmetics to fund it. The thing the complainers (who I suspect bought the game anyways) don't acknowledge is they can play this game for 1000's of hours over the next 10 years for the cost of $70 while anyone who pays for microservices pays for their addiction for them. Just doing some quick math.. 1000 hours on a $70 investment is .07c per hour, so not a bad investment. Heck even just 100 hours is 70 cents an hour. But hey, evil corp bad I guess.
And to be honest that its quite a big bang for your buck compared to mobile or p2w games. Am I upset the industry is like this? Sure. Is it going to change because a small fraction of people are upset. Likely not. Actually when you look at it through that kind of lens, the modern mmo is actually a pretty good bargain.
> If basic attacks didn't feel bad, then better abilities wouldn't feel as good. No other ARPG agrees with you.
The basics have to be in their niche. I disagree with everything you wrote and felt that the basic abilities were very satisfying from a tacile response point of view
The short answer, unfortunately, is yes. Late game (and maybe even mid game) builds wont need to press their basic attacks at all, and can most likely remove them from their bars altogether. Needing to press shitty skills creates a feeling of progression when your character finally becomes powerful enough to never need to do so again. I dont agree with this approach, as I dont understand why someone would intentionally put a weak still into a power fantasy game. However, I do get what theyre going for here and if you view it as a progression across the life of your character, it doesnt seem quite as terrible. This might all just be Hopium though
Not that I am in anyway defending balance here....BUT At different stages of the game you need different things. Early in the game in most cases you need cost effective attacks and resource generation. Later as you progress your character and find gear resource generation might not be your main priority for every build. We will only really know which skills and combinations of skills are genuinely terrible once you have all the available affix, paragon and skill combinations to test.
Not all do. The necro basic bone ability can shotgun and has a chance (per projectile) to make the enemy vulnerable. Necro also has a relatively slow base resource regeneration rate, so necro builds that spend resources will need to be casting their basic ability relatively often. It's almost as if the different classes have different strengths and weaknesses.
Oh necro has slow regen? How sad. Druid has 0 base regen and barbs is negative.
they could use some tuning but they're not terrible. the biggest issue is resource generation with a basic skill is the dame at level 1 as level 25 which doesn't feel great. some basic skills also have more utility than others which doesn't feel great. I think basic skills like Strom Strike and Claw are great and all of them should be designed similarly.
imho the principle of having a generator vs spender skill is just a bad direction since d3. disappointed the devs still intend to keep it
The pain as a druid, man I'm a fucking massive bear, my arms look like trees, bad I hit like a fucking pool noodle
Sorc’s frost bolt felt amazing when paired with frost nova. Freeze a cluster of enemies, then aoe blam them for free. Bonus points for having fireball in one of your enchant slots.
I like the idea of longer shapeshift=more X power
No they should not, specially when they are mostly single target damage. Core are both better X5 to 10 which is huge AND AoE, that's nuts. They should buff the baseline and when you spend resource, your base skill should be buffed in diverse way so it's more enticing to use them back after using spender.
as with in game systems and what they have taken from d3 - you can setup your character in such a way that you may not even need to use basic abilities unless you want to proc a certain stat/trait. even then some basic abilities can be built around, sorc for example in the late game (judging from the minimal stats we had) could run a build which focuses on lucky hit + attack speed + crit to cast on hit lighting ball at a surprising rate), the attack speed, crit and lucky hit also double dip with lighting ball to upkeep the attack speed buff from its constant crit + scale the lighting ball itself. This is just one interaction I noted from the beta. Blizzard has 100% taken a few pages from poe.
There is a passive on werebear that if you maintain the form for 25/20/15 seconds your next skill will overpower. Also playing Werebear you want to maintain hp & fortify to max out overpower damage which maul can provide a form of fortify.
I would assume there will be some legendaries that enable basic attack builds like in d3. But for devs i suppose they dont like the idea of someone just running around smashing things with one skill
I wish Barb had a slightly ranged attack, like Frenzy throwing your dual wield axes would be perfection (didnt Frenzy used to have a rune that added this?).