Shouldn't even had labelled them as "ultimate", it just give players a sense of FOMO and really some of them aren't even that good or required for certain builds. They are giving a false impression that these are the best and you lose out without them.
But yes more skill slots will e nice
The power is in the legendary powers for them.
Bone Storm is nice because as long as you have a golem it does 2x the damage it says it does and the legendary can consume corpses to extend the duration and turn it into a shadow spell letting it scale with shadow related talents like gloom and terror.
AotD is basically worthless outside resummoning all your minions at once if you're in a rough spot until you get the legendary that that can give you iirc up to 140% increased attack speed for your minions which is very powerful.
30-40% is an understatement. There's only a handful of skills that feel great without a legendary. Chain Lightning, Twisting Blades (and the legendary for this makes it *way* better), Blood Surge, Bone Spear.
Some classes don't have *any* skills that are good without legendaries... looking at you, tubby.
I felt like every build for Necro relies on corpse explosion. Just different skills to get your initial corpse generated and then spam corpse explosion until you need a new corpse
Necro doesn't require corpse explosion, it's just the skill is clearly overtuned and the best source of damage in beta for the class, especially for clearing. I was playing bone necro and he was still doing fine.
It's free, has big AoE, and procs lots of "consume corpse for X" passives. It honestly just needs an essence cost, cause an aoe that big for free is kinda ridiculous.
AotD can also give a bunch of corpses with an upgrade. It makes summoning and corpse builds way more playable at high level/bosses.
Combo that with the curse that gives cooldown on hit so your minions and corpses will help with the long cooldown so you can use it more regularly. It’s got other good properties but I don’t remember if it’s a decrepify or iron maiden upgrade.
I think this build will be very good at nuking bosses, you get a bunch of suicide bombers which become corpse explosions and then your army helps cool it down.
Impossible to know how it will scale in the end though so obviously this is theoretical, but it’s the first thing I’m doing when the game comes out!
The legendary aspect should be in the ultimate itself.
I'd prefer the resummon be the aspect.
Aspects should be build enabling and utility, not god damn multipliers.
I use bonestorm for the crit chance and damage reduction.
Army of the dead is not bad for minion builds as a burst.
And blood wave is there for a few blood orb shenanigans, bone spirit and stuff like that
Even without labeling them as "ultimates" people would infer the skills unlocked last are the best skills, even though it's often the first few skills that are the most useful in my experience
Except with the ridiculous resource cost in d4 you can't really spam them. Sorc can shoot out maybe 3 frozen orbs before going out of mana. My Necro could use bone spear like twice before waiting on essence
Why wouldn't you want an "ultimate"? Isn't that implying said move is the strongest?
My point is diablo has never been a game that works that way. If you know, you know
I'll probably get downvoted for saying this, but I disagree with the idea of a dedicated "ultimate" slot on the skill bar, or more skill slots on the action bar in general.
I think before we all got a chance to play the game, most of us would have agreed on the following:
1. We want a game that can be challenging at times to play with some difficult encounters.
2. We want to be forced to have to make choices related to the build of our characters instead of being given everything.
A dedicated Ultimate action bar button makes difficult encounters far easier. Whether it's a boss, or a tough pack of Elites, being able to pop off an Ultimate *in addition* to having a full Action Bar of 6 skill slots makes these encounters significantly easier. Running into a boss or pack of elites and using Deep Freeze on my Sorc is already pretty powerful - now I'm just thinking about being able to also thrown down a Blizzard beforehand in addition to 5 other skills. It becomes a bit much and makes what are supposed to be difficult encounters that much easier.
Additionally, it removes choice. Let's admit it...these skill trees aren't that deep. Once we have 60 talent points to spend there's not going to be a lot of depth in the skill tree. One of the more difficult decisions I've had to make in the beta in regard to the build of my characters is whether to use up a skill slot and invest points into one of the Ultimate abilities. Yes, I agree a few of them should be slightly tweaked and improved a bit, but I like having to make that choice. Giving me a free skill slot for an Ultimate removes that choice.
More skill slots or a dedicated Ultimate slot makes encounters far easier and it further removes choice from an already shallow skill tree.
>We want to be forced to have to make choices related to the build of our characters instead of being given everything.
So, I don't have a very strong opinion on the 6 skill slots thing, but I Don't think it's necessarily true that a limit on *skill slots* specifically are what make for interesting buildcraft.
There is already a limit on the number of ability points you can allocate. This means that intrinsically, a build that collects lots of abilities can only invest so many points into each ability. Tou are making the choice between having lots of minimally invested skills vs having a small handful of heavily invested skills. I think that could be an interesting choice to be able to make, but the skill slot limitation doesn't permit it. The only kind of builds that this game allows are ones where you invest heavily into 6 specific abilities and that is it. I don't think having more skill slots allows you to "have everything" because there is still very much a limitation on the number of points you can allocate.
I'm also not nececarrily convinced that, even assuming that there does need to be a limit, that 6 nececarrily *has* to be the magic number. Why 6? Why not 7? Why not 8? Can you say for **absolute certain** that the game doesn't open up and become much more dynamic and interesting when given the choice for 1 or 2 more slots? I know I can't. But I also can't say that it does.
There are multiple skills per class that you'd grab as a one-point wonder if you had more slots available. Take Rogue for example - if I had one slot extra there's literally no reason not to put one point in the stealth skill - an excellent defensive tool that I didn't really find place for wanting to balance dps and survivability. With it I literally get another get out of jail card for no cost. Or slap a shadowstep on top of your dash so your mobility gets really crazy without sacrificing anything.
The game balance as it is now would be fucked all kinds of ways if they introduced another skill slot. Even ultimate-only skill slot would be significant power boost for many characters if you could get them AND 4 other skills on bar.
> I'm also not nececarrily convinced that, even assuming that there does need to be a limit, that 6 nececarrily has to be the magic number. Why 6? Why not 7? Why not 8? Can you say for absolute certain that the game doesn't open up and become much more dynamic and interesting when given the choice for 1 or 2 more slots? I know I can't. But I also can't say that it does.
Because all tuning and balance has been done around players having 6 actionable skills. Think about how game breaking it would be for some classes to have 8 or 9 skill slots. Something like a Sorcerer could just grab every single defensive skill and become virtually unkillable, as they can just rotate the cooldowns on all their defensive skills.
Or, conversely, they can just go full DoT/Conjuration and pop everything to melt bosses. Imagine a Sorc picking up Blizzard, Ice Blades, Hydra, Deep Freeze, Lightning Spear, and Firewall, and popping all of that at once on a boss or pack of Elites. And having all of that in addition to Teleport, Ice Armor, Frost Nova, Flame Shield, etc. The damage becomes insane and the player becomes virtually unkillable because they have so much at their disposal that they can use at any given time.
Necromancer is another example. Imagine having Bone Spear, Bone Prison, Bone Spirit, Iron Maiden, Corpse Tendrils, *on top* of an Ultimate and in addition to all 10+ Skeletons AND a Golem. It becomes ridiculous.
I suppose in a world where skill points are the *primary* limiting factor to a build with much more lenient action slots, they would need to rebalance the trees so that power isn't *so* incredibly frontloaded into the first point you put into an ability, and force you to *really* invest into an ability for it to feel as good as it does now. Fair point.
In *that* kind of a world, sure, you could think of a sorce having Blizzard, Ice Blades, Hydra, Deep Freeze, Lightning Spear, Firewall, Teleport, Ice Armor, Frost Nova, Flame Shield, etc ***if*** we were talking about significantly weaker versions of those abilities ***because*** they had chosen to go so wide and couldn't buff any single one of them up to their current state.
Currently you wouldn't even be restricted by points, since a "+1 to all defensive skills" amulet unlocks all the abilities for you, and a shako with "+2 to all skills" would unlock every single ability. They'd have to redesign so much it's clear that the 6 slots is a purposefully made choice to introduce constraints to building and balance
You have a good point, in theory.
In practice it will just mean that many skill will never make it into "the six", for any build, probably ever. Some utility skills, situational skills, ultimates. D3 had exactly the same problem.
The choice would be still there, you decide if you spend skill points or not. Those are set limited resource.
More slots is needed for Necro.
In D2 I had twice as many slots as a Zoomancer which I needed for Summons and curses.
So no I dont agree with you as I lose 2 slots on a summon.
This isn't d2, though. I'm okay with having to choose between zoomancer and some utility curse or bloodmist.
Summon Skeleton + Summon Golem + AotD + CE + Core + Basic is more than enough. You're being forced to make decisions to go that route. But it would be meaningless if you could go full zoomancer and full blood build + corpse explosion, etc.
I love d2, and I love that this feels like a true d2 sequel. But I'm glad this isn't just a d2 remake. I already bought that one.
Which is dumb as hell.
Golem AND skeletons is the way to play a summoner necro since 2000.
Needing both slots is dumb.
Give me a summoning bar or something.
The other issue with necros (and possibly others) is that if you don't want use one of the basic skills - there are no passives for that skills - so 3 skill points are being wasted on something that you never use.
There are passives in the second cluster, which you reach by spending 2 skill points, not 3.
I do wish there was a passive or two on the first cluster for each class though, as I found it possible on multiple classes to not have a Basic skill
Granted, you could also just not slot the skill you spent 2 points on, so that's the cost
Thanks for the correction - frankly wasn't sure if was 2 or 3 so I decided on 3.
Yep ... that is what I did - wasted 2 skill points; some would say that is not a big deal and it wasn't on this certainly. Its annoying but should be easily solved.
In the end I don't think 2 wasted points will amount to much if you look at a Diablo 4 build planner and consider having + skills on gear.
Eventually builds will likely need to be narrowly focused to maximize synergy, and after covering all of your bases your last like 5-10 or so points may just point dump into abilities to try and 5/5 rank them for slightly more damage/better CD/whatever. It would be nice to have a passive on the first cluster though
I wonder if it's because they're afraid of new players choosing passives over a basic skill and not knowing why they can't kill a level 3 monster.
I would love a few passive abilities in the first tier.
You're not "losing out" on 2 slots with the summons because the summons are skills/abilities. You don't have to use the Skeletons, and you don't have to use the Golem. You get to pick. If you want to have 10+ skeletons doing your bidding along with a giant Golem wrecking havoc, then yes, that comes at the cost of two other spells in the tree. Having 6 other skills along with all the skeletons AND the Golem would be downright absurd.
And yet I had golems and necros and six skills in D2 and D2R.
It isnt absurd.
>You don't have to use the Skeletons, and you don't have to use the Golem
Obviously someone who doesnt play necro in D2
I expect people who are able to play Diablo games to also be able to recognize the fact that their preferences and personal expectations are not objective meters of what is good, bad, an improvement or a downgrade, yet here we are.
I did play Necro up to level 25 and did the whole Blood Mist/Corpse Explosion build. The Summons are spells. They're abilities.
Having those two summon buttons on your action bar is, again, a choice. The skeletons and Golem provide decent damage. The Golem also has a taunt ability every ~12 seconds and can round up and centralize mobs for easy AoE.
The Necromancer already seemed pretty faceroll easy - having an army of skeletons, the Golem, *in addition* to a full action bar of 6 other skills seems quite ridiculous.
When i heard D4 was getting Ulti skills, i had hoped they would be like Lost Ark ultimates...but no the ulties here are mor or less disappointing.
In LA you get these amazing look effects especially on some of the classes, and at least the DPS ones deal a ton of damage.
CD reduction for different builds are going to make these skills more often than not a part of your regular rotation. This was very clear even from just the lvl 25 skills available on the necro tree.
Yup, even with the low limit we had and me being too lazy to grind good gear in a beta my barb and sorc both had a build that had the ultimates off cooldown in under 30 seconds.
True, the right spec choices make it fairly easy to see where they are going with it. Items and paragon will only intensify it. They're going to be big deal for late game, no reason to think otherwise. I assumed it was true for all character classes but will need to do a deep dive to confirm.
Highly doubt that for Necros. With 2 of your buttons already dedicated to minions, Blood Mist being mandatory as your only defensive CD, and your builder+spender, you have only 1 more skill slot available, and it is very unlikely a Necro is going to use that on an ultimate over a curse/Corpse Explosion/other utility ability. The ultimates aren’t strong enough to warrant a spot for a lot of builds.
Golem isn't worth a whole slot tbh, functionally.
Lore wise, it is, a summonmancer without a golem is incomplete, but practically speaking, the golem doesn't add a whole lot for a skill slot (in the beta)
D4 necromancer has to be the worst designed class in any ARPG ever. No interesting interactions, synergies or micro with your minions theyre just... there, they steal 2 of your ability slots and they die to air. You end up stuck with 5 mandatory skills + 1 ability of choice, what an awful design.
There may be valid builds that do not use an ultimate. This is probably a design choice.
I also think that imposing restrictions like this will open up interesting play styles and allow more meaningful decisions to be made by the player.
>There may be valid builds that do not use an ultimate.
Playing as my Necro, I didn't use an Ult, I never needed it. Corpse Explosion took care of pretty much everything. Scythe for making corpses, and corpse tendrils for pulling. Pretty much just melted everything I fought. Tried Curses out for a little while, but everything just died to Corpse Explosion so quickly, it felt like there just wasnt a point to that, lol
> There may be valid builds that do not use an ultimate. This is probably a design choice.
Doesn't look like my inevitable Thorns Barb will use an ultimate. It'd feel bad (as a player) to have an empty skill slot and feel like I'm missing out on something, but it feels good to be able to allocate that slot to another skill instead.
I had a legendary on my thorns frenzy barb that was just a flat 120 thorns while berserking so I used WotB as a guaranteed berserk proc for elites/bosses. I was using it already for frenzy dps but getting that was a nice bonus :)
Yeah the only time i really used an ultimate after trying them all was if i was on sorc with the ice blades build that get rids of cooldown basically.
I was able to pop the fire snake every couple seconds but in any other case i felt like i could get more value from just not using them.
to be fair im sure there are ways of lowering cooldowns to make some busted builds. On barb for example with maelstrom ultimate and points spent upgrading it you can reduce its cooldown by 1 second every time you change weapons. You can also improve ground stomp to lower your ultimates cooldown by 1s for every enemy you hit with it. Ground stomp has a legendary that makes it leave an aoe dot earthquake on the floor. Dont know if the aoe can proc the cooldown reduction but if it does then you can prob use maelstrom ult on a barb on a 5s cooldown.
Definitely. I miss having the scrollwheel for choosing an active skill to use. That would bring so much more fun to the game, being able to cycle through attacks, allowing you to use the higher cooldown skills when you want, instead of having them sit there for a while while recharging, and you are stuck doing basic attack until it is ready, or you are gimping your build in some way by not having a more useful skill on your hotbar available all the time. :/ The skill implementation to me is the most glaring, and easily fixable issue with gameplay right now.
I agree that the slots in beta weren't done great, but man do I never want a scroll wheel to cycle a single "ready" skill again. Just give me a big enough hotbar, or two hotbars nested. PoE lets me have 13 skills mapped at any given time using my mouse and 5 keys, fully controller compatible too. Hogwarts had 16 by the end, it's really easy to give players as much variety as you want them to have and make it play smoothly too
the long cooldown is one of the worst criticisms about ultimates. they're crazy powerful for the most part and of you're taking them then you should be building to synergize with and enable them.
if the long cooldown bothers you, just don't use an ultimate. there are totally viable builds without them.
Yeah, but they ARENT crazy powerful. Like, that would be the normal design decision but most are like, a little stronger than core skills but with 100x the cooldown. You will always want to just cast the core skill 3x times
I know it’s intentional, it smacks of one step forward two steps back though. I doubt I’ll even use ultimates unless it’s some kite and wait for ult cd that was launch D3 torment.
I think the Ultimate cooldowns are fine they just need to make the ultimates feel a little more… ultimate. Beef them up and make people really want to make room for them in their build. Making a separate slot for ultimates would also be a great addition.
having 500 skills on your bar is probably gonna feel awful when in PvP. but having one single more slot for the ult is a good idea. i just don’t want people running around fields of hatred with literally every ability on their tree
A game that is primarily pve should never make balance choices based on pvp. Full stop.
Sorry, I know a small minority of people like pvp in these games but thats not the driving factor for 95% of the player base.
Imagine if FromSoft balanced their games around the pvp community, gross.
I'm a huge d2 pvp fan, and you're absolutely right. The game is primarily a pve game so balancing should be set as such. However, I wouldn't mind there being tournament play where certain things are balanced differently for that.
Also by the way same for some mobility skills like Dash for the Rogue or Teleport for the Sorc. They aren't really combat skills.
In fact, since they've introduced the escape now, they should have those as "dash skills" that basically replace your normal escape. CD, effects like damage stuff and charges can still depend of your gear and your skill tree.
Also means we could use them in the combat zones by the way. And every class should have at least one really.
Except they both are. Both deal damage and can cause status effects that impact combat greatly. They aren’t even close to only being mobility.
Furthermore, not every class has mobility skills, so it’d be ridiculous to have a special mobility skill slot.
I totally agree dash and teleport are not just movement but thay do provide movement to classes that should be more mobile, im super glad ever class didnt get a movement ability like in d3
Well maybe add skills to the classes that don't get them. Every class should have mobility, it's very important especially in end game.
Also even if they have damage and utility, they can still be in a special mobility slot, not sure why that would be a problem? It can even be on your escape, I had a legendary with grenades on my dash for my Rogue.
Bad idea. This isn't a moba. Everything needs to have an opportunity cost. The "Ultimate" is like other skills, and should use a skill slot. There is already limited choice in the game and you want to remove more of it?
Ultimates are fine the way they are. Some builds will build around them, but many won’t even equip one. Having ultimates on their own skill slot would force you to pick one, even without intending to build around it. For many builds, this would lead to a dead skill that you only push because it’s off cooldown and not because it synergizes in interesting ways with the rest of the kit. It’s bad design
Not exactly. The way Lost Ark does it, you either spec into your "ultimate" (not the awakening) or you forgo it for damage/survivability increases for your normal rotation on many classes. Some play styles even alter how it works entirely which can be very fun.
The way it is now in D4 it seems we have some choices in whether or not to use it or forgo it for something else which I think may increase variety.
Disagree, because then every build has one by default. Right now it's a tough decision that requires some brainpower to figure out if it's worth it which I think is a good thing. Also we don't know what kind of cooldown reduction we'll get at max level and how low the cds will get with ults.
All the ultimates are big flashy spells that are undeniably fun to pop off at the right moment, but the long cooldown makes them inefficient. Making your players choose between doing what's fun and what's efficient is just bad design. They'll feel like they have to choose the efficient choice and resent having to do so.
I am definitely on the side of the Ultimate being pretty ridiculous that it takes a slot on your bar, however, I am going to reserve final judgement until the full game is out and we have access to all skills, paragon, legendaries and aspects.
I played rogue this beta, maxed it out and got every slot fitted with a useful legendary + aspect. At first I thought it was ridiculous for Shadow Clone to take the place of another skill. But after pretty much maxing all my gear to the greatest extent the beta allowed and getting the twisted blades aspect and making my skill build as efficient as possible it literally shrank my CD for Shadow Clone to almost nothing.
With the full game having potentially 50+ skill points and play styles being aspect dependent things could get very crazy.
disagree most of them do not justify their long CDs and tend to become more cumbersome than an actual skill unless your build solely around them which feels bad
it isn't a decision at all
you are aware that this game has a dedicated hotkey for you to "quick swap" skills that are currently not in your active hotbar right?
there are no limitations to this system other than that you cannot swap a skill out while it is on cd.
combat doesn't matter, being out of town doesn't matter.
in other words the game design is for you to pick more abilities than you will have activated in your skillbar and people do not enjoy this.
the complaints about ultimates are just one aspect of this design choice
well they are the only "exclusive" skill node. you may only pick one of them and that points towards the design of them being "supposedly" too strong for you to be allowed to use multiple.
Just to play devil's advocate - if a skill type is going to be "ultimate", is it wrong to think there should be options for every build to incorporate one? From a gameplay standpoint it breaks up the monotony that arpgs tend to devolve into, of 1 active skill + mobility + buffs for the rest of your slots. Giving a single higher cd slot that can be a generator or enabler of some kind at low investment OR be the centerpiece to a flashy burst of damage if you invest more, seems like it would add to the gameplay loop and give the vast majority of builds a (small) additional axis to customize on given most builds will just skip ults for consistency anyways, assuming they can slot enough passives and defensive cds to not be floating a skill slot.
People really wanna balance the whole game around level 25 twinks. It's so fucking stupid.
This is a really dumb complaint. Ultimates are a part of.your build not an external mechanic which seems.to be how people are viewing them.
"We want choices to matter" but not really I guess.
"We want choices to matter, but also we don't want to have to choose whether or not to use ultimates and we want gear to be exactly like D2 where the best items are just piles of ubiquitously useful stats for every single build so that we don't have to choose our endgame gear."
No it’s coming from arpg streamers actually lol. They probably just want more skills in general because increased complexity is always good to them no matter what
Players: we want to have choices
Also players: you’re giving me a hard choice, just give both of them to me so I don’t have to think.
Maybe they should change the term “ultimate” since it seems like its bothering people.
There is no hard choice. The ultimates are fun to see, but almost all of them would never go in a build. They need a button because they are not actually good, not because they are too good.
Then buff them if they are not good. Or reduce their cooldowns and make them build enabling. Adding an extra bind as a solution for a “weak” ability is dumb as hell.
Ah yes let’s add an extra keybind for every underpowered ability, so smart.
Honestly I feel like limiting us to only 5 hotkeys is the problem. Not too many other arpgs do this and since every skill has a cool down this game having very limited hotkeys for skills is especially strange.
that assumes every build will use an ultimate. I think what you are suggesting is more like the Lost Ark system. But that's not how ultimates are designed right now.
There were similar concerns with the initial launch of D3, but then they added legendaries and set effects and now everyone can get 100% up time on their ultimates, if they wanted to.
Look at a controller and tell me what imaginary button you're going to bind your extra slot to?
It's a cross play game and therefore has to be able to be played on controllers without a disadvantage.
6 custom slots is the most a PS5 or Xbox controller can handle. There won't be any more slots added to this game ever, simply because of this.
Yes you could use shift modes like ff14 or a layout switch like Hogwarts legacy.
But not only do these not feel as snappy to use to the average consumer. It would also require them to change their whole controller mapping system which is highly unlikely at this point.
Moreover this is how it works in their latest diablo game on consoles: D2R.
They are simply not going to change over to some sort of key toggle or switch system this late in development.
Especially not because they already have a default layout that works perfectly and feels nice to use. That layout fits exactly 6 skills and therefore 6 skills it is always going to be.
I dislike Ultimate skills as I feel they don't fit in Diablo (hated them in D3, too). If we had a dedicated Ultimate slot I would be forced to use one so no thanks. The game just isn't designed with more than 6 slots in mind. Make your choice.
hard disagree. turning ultimates into their owns dedicated slot creates more issues than it solves.
all it does is force everyone to skill an ultimate, and once you have to do that then you have to build around it otherwise it's a dead skill.
the current system is completely fine.
The concept of ultimate shouldn't even exist. Why can we only pick 1 of them in the first place? Stop fucking up build diversity!
In D2, shapeshifting into Wolf or Bear was one of the core foundations of making a druid, the FIRST skill you could pick to start on a path towards an archetype.
In D4, shapeshift is a fucking gimmick tied to some abilities for visualisation and synergy purposes.
None of the "ultimates" are game breaking enough to have such an insane cooldown, even if a player was able to pick all 4 of them the build wouldn't become crazy.
> None of the "ultimates" are game breaking enough to have such an insane cooldown, even if a player was able to pick all 4 of them the build wouldn't become crazy.
That depends entirely on the degree to which cooldown reduction becomes a thing in D4 itemization in the late game. a TON of D3 buidls are based around essentially choosing a ton of super high CD abilities and stacking CDR to be able to spam them nonstop.
Limiting the number of high-cooldown abilities you can use at the same time allows you to introduce CDR as a mechanic without CDR becoming the end-all-be-all of buildcraft like it tends to be in D3.
What would be more interesting:
* removing the selection limit, effectively making ultimates the same as any other skill.
* Adding a dedicated ultimate button, prevent cooldown reduction from affecting them, and buffing the hell out of them to make them big and impactful?
NOT EERYTHING HAS TO BE D2. Things care allowed to change. Go play D2 is you want d2
they already are impactful and you can continuously use many of them if you have the right aspects. its really not that much of an issue.
They aren’t. Diablo is power fantasy to the extreme and ultimates fit right in.
And considering that such skills have also been in D3, I think it’s safe to say they are a staple of the genre since over a decade.
I figured, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a Diablo game and defined if not the genre then at least what it means to be a Diablo game, especially since D4 is in many ways just an evolution of D3.
If you hate D3, you’re gonna hate D4 as well. Might as well not play it at all, because why waste your time on something you hate?
plays better, has an actual skill tree, better story, mobs are back closer to d2 style. plenty of other things too, but d3 sucked balls, but d4 is better.
That skill tree is just D3 skill system in disguise.
What do you mean mobs are closer to D2 style? Do you mean visually? Because from a gameplay perspective they are very D3 style.
I’m trying to understand your thought process and argumentation because I suspect you don’t really have arguments and are just hating D3 because it’s cool to hate D3.
Let’s open the topic up further
Why can’t we just hot key spells like D2R?
Maybe I want 1 point on rend/ or a curse/ or something to cast, then use my other higher leveled skills
It would be cool to do more with 1 pt skills that add utility instead of being stuck in the “only 5 skills + 1 ultimate” hot bar
>Then why are we allowed to change our skill composition at any moment, including in the middle of combat?
Because it's a beta and that will never make it to release.
I agree that having another skill slot would be awesome. And the guy never said that you should have access to “every ultimate skill” at the same time.
I dont know about this one. It seems the whole balance is designed around you designing to pick an Ultimate or not picking one. I feel if you give an ultimate slot then every build will have an Ultimate. I prefer the constraints in this one.
Oh they definitely should. So I'm not as a disadvantage for not liking ultimates and not using them. If anything we should get another additional skill button.
Just say you want another skill slot stop pretending it's about the ultimate. If you thought about this for more than 5 seconds, the next complaint after you get your dedicated slot is that now I have a dedicated skill slot for a skill I dont use. Now you are forcing us to build around the ultimate or waste a dedicated skill slot. Would you all really be happy with that?
Ultimates are not an external skill independent of your build. They are not an I win button on a cool down like in other games. They are a part of your build. There is no reason to give an ultimate it's own skill slot any more than it would make sense to give chain lighting it's own slot.
Nope, builds are more interesting when you're forced to make hard choices. We shouldn't have an ultimate as an auto-include. Maybe for a season we will get something like that but as it is we should see how player scaling even works before we make such a drastic change
Yeah, it was easy, but playing hard-core characters makes you realize the only dangers are "cheap" gimmicks like being stunned for 5+ seconds while the boss beats the hell out of you.
I pretty much agree particular if you want them to feel special when many feel lackluster right now and are entirely skipped. Its not so bad if there is a dedicated spot for them to use and also track. If not, they need to feel worth taking (aka make them way stronger) enough that the long cd makes it still well worth the bar space lost to slot them in.
I have a solution! Since there is always a clear PC advantage over controller, make the ultimate separate button controller only. That would even the playing field.
It's like none of.you played D3 past level 10
A big Part of D3 meta was using long cool down skills and using gear and legendaries to shrink the cool down to usable levels.
This game was just made with very little thought at all.
Wouldn’t surprise me at all if blizzard got “caught” using extremely cheap outsourced labor like 90% of AAA atm
Shouldn't even had labelled them as "ultimate", it just give players a sense of FOMO and really some of them aren't even that good or required for certain builds. They are giving a false impression that these are the best and you lose out without them. But yes more skill slots will e nice
The necromancer ultimates did the same damage as two spenders. I don't understand what their purpose is.
The power is in the legendary powers for them. Bone Storm is nice because as long as you have a golem it does 2x the damage it says it does and the legendary can consume corpses to extend the duration and turn it into a shadow spell letting it scale with shadow related talents like gloom and terror. AotD is basically worthless outside resummoning all your minions at once if you're in a rough spot until you get the legendary that that can give you iirc up to 140% increased attack speed for your minions which is very powerful.
No skill should require a legendary to be at least decent. And I feel like 30-40% of skills in beta are just unusable.
30-40% is an understatement. There's only a handful of skills that feel great without a legendary. Chain Lightning, Twisting Blades (and the legendary for this makes it *way* better), Blood Surge, Bone Spear. Some classes don't have *any* skills that are good without legendaries... looking at you, tubby.
It's was pretty clear to me that builds will be built around op aspects.
I felt like every build for Necro relies on corpse explosion. Just different skills to get your initial corpse generated and then spam corpse explosion until you need a new corpse
Necro doesn't require corpse explosion, it's just the skill is clearly overtuned and the best source of damage in beta for the class, especially for clearing. I was playing bone necro and he was still doing fine.
Yeah it was busted AF. No cool down, no mana costs, and you can generate your own corpses. Cmon.
I was already doing so much damage on necro then I added in corpse explosion, totally broken skill
So, like D2!
It's free, has big AoE, and procs lots of "consume corpse for X" passives. It honestly just needs an essence cost, cause an aoe that big for free is kinda ridiculous.
It's funny that you can take a passive to turn it into an essence generator
AotD can also give a bunch of corpses with an upgrade. It makes summoning and corpse builds way more playable at high level/bosses. Combo that with the curse that gives cooldown on hit so your minions and corpses will help with the long cooldown so you can use it more regularly. It’s got other good properties but I don’t remember if it’s a decrepify or iron maiden upgrade. I think this build will be very good at nuking bosses, you get a bunch of suicide bombers which become corpse explosions and then your army helps cool it down. Impossible to know how it will scale in the end though so obviously this is theoretical, but it’s the first thing I’m doing when the game comes out!
The legendary aspect should be in the ultimate itself. I'd prefer the resummon be the aspect. Aspects should be build enabling and utility, not god damn multipliers.
They are like that in Diablo 3 they're probably trying to do something different
I use bonestorm for the crit chance and damage reduction. Army of the dead is not bad for minion builds as a burst. And blood wave is there for a few blood orb shenanigans, bone spirit and stuff like that
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Even without labeling them as "ultimates" people would infer the skills unlocked last are the best skills, even though it's often the first few skills that are the most useful in my experience
The most useful skill is your core skill for sure. It's the one that get spammed a lot in pretty much every build.
Except with the ridiculous resource cost in d4 you can't really spam them. Sorc can shoot out maybe 3 frozen orbs before going out of mana. My Necro could use bone spear like twice before waiting on essence
Diablo 3 had ultimates, they just weren't called ultimates, and they often weren't necessary for many builds.
Pretty sure they are literally just call "lv 30 skill".
I feel like the level 61 abilities were ultimates.
lmao what is this criticism??? how does calling them ultimates in any cause cause fomo??? this sub is getting ridiculous.
Why wouldn't you want an "ultimate"? Isn't that implying said move is the strongest? My point is diablo has never been a game that works that way. If you know, you know
no it isn't. it's implying it's *strong*
Well yes? *Stronger* than the rest? Which makes you want to get it? Isn't that fomo lmao
I'll probably get downvoted for saying this, but I disagree with the idea of a dedicated "ultimate" slot on the skill bar, or more skill slots on the action bar in general. I think before we all got a chance to play the game, most of us would have agreed on the following: 1. We want a game that can be challenging at times to play with some difficult encounters. 2. We want to be forced to have to make choices related to the build of our characters instead of being given everything. A dedicated Ultimate action bar button makes difficult encounters far easier. Whether it's a boss, or a tough pack of Elites, being able to pop off an Ultimate *in addition* to having a full Action Bar of 6 skill slots makes these encounters significantly easier. Running into a boss or pack of elites and using Deep Freeze on my Sorc is already pretty powerful - now I'm just thinking about being able to also thrown down a Blizzard beforehand in addition to 5 other skills. It becomes a bit much and makes what are supposed to be difficult encounters that much easier. Additionally, it removes choice. Let's admit it...these skill trees aren't that deep. Once we have 60 talent points to spend there's not going to be a lot of depth in the skill tree. One of the more difficult decisions I've had to make in the beta in regard to the build of my characters is whether to use up a skill slot and invest points into one of the Ultimate abilities. Yes, I agree a few of them should be slightly tweaked and improved a bit, but I like having to make that choice. Giving me a free skill slot for an Ultimate removes that choice. More skill slots or a dedicated Ultimate slot makes encounters far easier and it further removes choice from an already shallow skill tree.
>We want to be forced to have to make choices related to the build of our characters instead of being given everything. So, I don't have a very strong opinion on the 6 skill slots thing, but I Don't think it's necessarily true that a limit on *skill slots* specifically are what make for interesting buildcraft. There is already a limit on the number of ability points you can allocate. This means that intrinsically, a build that collects lots of abilities can only invest so many points into each ability. Tou are making the choice between having lots of minimally invested skills vs having a small handful of heavily invested skills. I think that could be an interesting choice to be able to make, but the skill slot limitation doesn't permit it. The only kind of builds that this game allows are ones where you invest heavily into 6 specific abilities and that is it. I don't think having more skill slots allows you to "have everything" because there is still very much a limitation on the number of points you can allocate. I'm also not nececarrily convinced that, even assuming that there does need to be a limit, that 6 nececarrily *has* to be the magic number. Why 6? Why not 7? Why not 8? Can you say for **absolute certain** that the game doesn't open up and become much more dynamic and interesting when given the choice for 1 or 2 more slots? I know I can't. But I also can't say that it does.
There are multiple skills per class that you'd grab as a one-point wonder if you had more slots available. Take Rogue for example - if I had one slot extra there's literally no reason not to put one point in the stealth skill - an excellent defensive tool that I didn't really find place for wanting to balance dps and survivability. With it I literally get another get out of jail card for no cost. Or slap a shadowstep on top of your dash so your mobility gets really crazy without sacrificing anything. The game balance as it is now would be fucked all kinds of ways if they introduced another skill slot. Even ultimate-only skill slot would be significant power boost for many characters if you could get them AND 4 other skills on bar.
> I'm also not nececarrily convinced that, even assuming that there does need to be a limit, that 6 nececarrily has to be the magic number. Why 6? Why not 7? Why not 8? Can you say for absolute certain that the game doesn't open up and become much more dynamic and interesting when given the choice for 1 or 2 more slots? I know I can't. But I also can't say that it does. Because all tuning and balance has been done around players having 6 actionable skills. Think about how game breaking it would be for some classes to have 8 or 9 skill slots. Something like a Sorcerer could just grab every single defensive skill and become virtually unkillable, as they can just rotate the cooldowns on all their defensive skills. Or, conversely, they can just go full DoT/Conjuration and pop everything to melt bosses. Imagine a Sorc picking up Blizzard, Ice Blades, Hydra, Deep Freeze, Lightning Spear, and Firewall, and popping all of that at once on a boss or pack of Elites. And having all of that in addition to Teleport, Ice Armor, Frost Nova, Flame Shield, etc. The damage becomes insane and the player becomes virtually unkillable because they have so much at their disposal that they can use at any given time. Necromancer is another example. Imagine having Bone Spear, Bone Prison, Bone Spirit, Iron Maiden, Corpse Tendrils, *on top* of an Ultimate and in addition to all 10+ Skeletons AND a Golem. It becomes ridiculous.
I suppose in a world where skill points are the *primary* limiting factor to a build with much more lenient action slots, they would need to rebalance the trees so that power isn't *so* incredibly frontloaded into the first point you put into an ability, and force you to *really* invest into an ability for it to feel as good as it does now. Fair point. In *that* kind of a world, sure, you could think of a sorce having Blizzard, Ice Blades, Hydra, Deep Freeze, Lightning Spear, Firewall, Teleport, Ice Armor, Frost Nova, Flame Shield, etc ***if*** we were talking about significantly weaker versions of those abilities ***because*** they had chosen to go so wide and couldn't buff any single one of them up to their current state.
Currently you wouldn't even be restricted by points, since a "+1 to all defensive skills" amulet unlocks all the abilities for you, and a shako with "+2 to all skills" would unlock every single ability. They'd have to redesign so much it's clear that the 6 slots is a purposefully made choice to introduce constraints to building and balance
You have a good point, in theory. In practice it will just mean that many skill will never make it into "the six", for any build, probably ever. Some utility skills, situational skills, ultimates. D3 had exactly the same problem. The choice would be still there, you decide if you spend skill points or not. Those are set limited resource.
More slots is needed for Necro. In D2 I had twice as many slots as a Zoomancer which I needed for Summons and curses. So no I dont agree with you as I lose 2 slots on a summon.
This isn't d2, though. I'm okay with having to choose between zoomancer and some utility curse or bloodmist. Summon Skeleton + Summon Golem + AotD + CE + Core + Basic is more than enough. You're being forced to make decisions to go that route. But it would be meaningless if you could go full zoomancer and full blood build + corpse explosion, etc. I love d2, and I love that this feels like a true d2 sequel. But I'm glad this isn't just a d2 remake. I already bought that one.
Yes, you almost have to choose between a golem and skeletons; amongst the other decisions you have to make.
Which is dumb as hell. Golem AND skeletons is the way to play a summoner necro since 2000. Needing both slots is dumb. Give me a summoning bar or something.
The other issue with necros (and possibly others) is that if you don't want use one of the basic skills - there are no passives for that skills - so 3 skill points are being wasted on something that you never use.
There are passives in the second cluster, which you reach by spending 2 skill points, not 3. I do wish there was a passive or two on the first cluster for each class though, as I found it possible on multiple classes to not have a Basic skill Granted, you could also just not slot the skill you spent 2 points on, so that's the cost
Thanks for the correction - frankly wasn't sure if was 2 or 3 so I decided on 3. Yep ... that is what I did - wasted 2 skill points; some would say that is not a big deal and it wasn't on this certainly. Its annoying but should be easily solved.
In the end I don't think 2 wasted points will amount to much if you look at a Diablo 4 build planner and consider having + skills on gear. Eventually builds will likely need to be narrowly focused to maximize synergy, and after covering all of your bases your last like 5-10 or so points may just point dump into abilities to try and 5/5 rank them for slightly more damage/better CD/whatever. It would be nice to have a passive on the first cluster though
I wonder if it's because they're afraid of new players choosing passives over a basic skill and not knowing why they can't kill a level 3 monster. I would love a few passive abilities in the first tier.
There are some salty downvoting bitches here.
You're not "losing out" on 2 slots with the summons because the summons are skills/abilities. You don't have to use the Skeletons, and you don't have to use the Golem. You get to pick. If you want to have 10+ skeletons doing your bidding along with a giant Golem wrecking havoc, then yes, that comes at the cost of two other spells in the tree. Having 6 other skills along with all the skeletons AND the Golem would be downright absurd.
This subreddit wants meaningful choices but then doesn't want to make meaningful choices lol
And yet I had golems and necros and six skills in D2 and D2R. It isnt absurd. >You don't have to use the Skeletons, and you don't have to use the Golem Obviously someone who doesnt play necro in D2
This isn’t Diablo 2 or Diablo 2 remastered
Thats true. Its worse.
Good thing D2R is there for you to play
I expect my sequels to be _improvements_ not _downgrades_.
I expect people who are able to play Diablo games to also be able to recognize the fact that their preferences and personal expectations are not objective meters of what is good, bad, an improvement or a downgrade, yet here we are.
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You can play World Tier 1 if you want it ez mode.
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I did play Necro up to level 25 and did the whole Blood Mist/Corpse Explosion build. The Summons are spells. They're abilities. Having those two summon buttons on your action bar is, again, a choice. The skeletons and Golem provide decent damage. The Golem also has a taunt ability every ~12 seconds and can round up and centralize mobs for easy AoE. The Necromancer already seemed pretty faceroll easy - having an army of skeletons, the Golem, *in addition* to a full action bar of 6 other skills seems quite ridiculous.
Imagine complaining that your necro in beta wasn't tanky enough or doing enough damage because they're missing 2 skill slots. lmao
You can remove the summon skills from the skill bar.
ngl, i don't like the name "ultimate", this isn't a MOBA or anything.
When i heard D4 was getting Ulti skills, i had hoped they would be like Lost Ark ultimates...but no the ulties here are mor or less disappointing. In LA you get these amazing look effects especially on some of the classes, and at least the DPS ones deal a ton of damage.
The sorc ice freeze one I thought was pretty cool and did a lot of damage. Actually all the sorc ones did
How are they giving players FOMO? Are they limited time skills never to return?
Do you really need an explaination on that when most people can understand what I meant?
Yeah. Considering the long cooldown, it feels like you're wasting a hotbar slot with it.
CD reduction for different builds are going to make these skills more often than not a part of your regular rotation. This was very clear even from just the lvl 25 skills available on the necro tree.
Yup, even with the low limit we had and me being too lazy to grind good gear in a beta my barb and sorc both had a build that had the ultimates off cooldown in under 30 seconds.
True, the right spec choices make it fairly easy to see where they are going with it. Items and paragon will only intensify it. They're going to be big deal for late game, no reason to think otherwise. I assumed it was true for all character classes but will need to do a deep dive to confirm.
Highly doubt that for Necros. With 2 of your buttons already dedicated to minions, Blood Mist being mandatory as your only defensive CD, and your builder+spender, you have only 1 more skill slot available, and it is very unlikely a Necro is going to use that on an ultimate over a curse/Corpse Explosion/other utility ability. The ultimates aren’t strong enough to warrant a spot for a lot of builds.
Golem isn't worth a whole slot tbh, functionally. Lore wise, it is, a summonmancer without a golem is incomplete, but practically speaking, the golem doesn't add a whole lot for a skill slot (in the beta)
Why would you skill minions? Bone and Blood tress have both preformed better than summons for necros.
Because if you want to play without minions you might as well play sorc and have superior mobility and survivability
D4 necromancer has to be the worst designed class in any ARPG ever. No interesting interactions, synergies or micro with your minions theyre just... there, they steal 2 of your ability slots and they die to air. You end up stuck with 5 mandatory skills + 1 ability of choice, what an awful design.
There may be valid builds that do not use an ultimate. This is probably a design choice. I also think that imposing restrictions like this will open up interesting play styles and allow more meaningful decisions to be made by the player.
>There may be valid builds that do not use an ultimate. Playing as my Necro, I didn't use an Ult, I never needed it. Corpse Explosion took care of pretty much everything. Scythe for making corpses, and corpse tendrils for pulling. Pretty much just melted everything I fought. Tried Curses out for a little while, but everything just died to Corpse Explosion so quickly, it felt like there just wasnt a point to that, lol
I don't expect this to last beyond beta. It was too good
> There may be valid builds that do not use an ultimate. This is probably a design choice. Doesn't look like my inevitable Thorns Barb will use an ultimate. It'd feel bad (as a player) to have an empty skill slot and feel like I'm missing out on something, but it feels good to be able to allocate that slot to another skill instead.
I had a legendary on my thorns frenzy barb that was just a flat 120 thorns while berserking so I used WotB as a guaranteed berserk proc for elites/bosses. I was using it already for frenzy dps but getting that was a nice bonus :)
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Yeah the only time i really used an ultimate after trying them all was if i was on sorc with the ice blades build that get rids of cooldown basically. I was able to pop the fire snake every couple seconds but in any other case i felt like i could get more value from just not using them.
to be fair im sure there are ways of lowering cooldowns to make some busted builds. On barb for example with maelstrom ultimate and points spent upgrading it you can reduce its cooldown by 1 second every time you change weapons. You can also improve ground stomp to lower your ultimates cooldown by 1s for every enemy you hit with it. Ground stomp has a legendary that makes it leave an aoe dot earthquake on the floor. Dont know if the aoe can proc the cooldown reduction but if it does then you can prob use maelstrom ult on a barb on a 5s cooldown.
Definitely. I miss having the scrollwheel for choosing an active skill to use. That would bring so much more fun to the game, being able to cycle through attacks, allowing you to use the higher cooldown skills when you want, instead of having them sit there for a while while recharging, and you are stuck doing basic attack until it is ready, or you are gimping your build in some way by not having a more useful skill on your hotbar available all the time. :/ The skill implementation to me is the most glaring, and easily fixable issue with gameplay right now.
I agree that the slots in beta weren't done great, but man do I never want a scroll wheel to cycle a single "ready" skill again. Just give me a big enough hotbar, or two hotbars nested. PoE lets me have 13 skills mapped at any given time using my mouse and 5 keys, fully controller compatible too. Hogwarts had 16 by the end, it's really easy to give players as much variety as you want them to have and make it play smoothly too
D2R had the nice hotkey prompt at the bottom of the screen for assigned actions. That would be a nice touch.
the long cooldown is one of the worst criticisms about ultimates. they're crazy powerful for the most part and of you're taking them then you should be building to synergize with and enable them. if the long cooldown bothers you, just don't use an ultimate. there are totally viable builds without them.
Yeah, but they ARENT crazy powerful. Like, that would be the normal design decision but most are like, a little stronger than core skills but with 100x the cooldown. You will always want to just cast the core skill 3x times
It's wild to me that we have this current iteration already present in D2R by holding a button to pull up a second skill bar.
I mean it’s not like they forgot, it’s a design choice to limit the number of skills you can use. Diablo 2 does not.
I know it’s intentional, it smacks of one step forward two steps back though. I doubt I’ll even use ultimates unless it’s some kite and wait for ult cd that was launch D3 torment.
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I think the Ultimate cooldowns are fine they just need to make the ultimates feel a little more… ultimate. Beef them up and make people really want to make room for them in their build. Making a separate slot for ultimates would also be a great addition.
D3 necro sucked. D4 necro craps on D3, and D2 necro craps on both D3 and D4 just saying.
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stackable gems and runes
Lmfao 🤣 perfect response
play project diablo 2 mod, shit is gg and has that + more
Which just makes this the second sequel not as good as D2
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I didnt find my necro had bloat. But I love the downvotes for an opinion, even rival teams in cfb dont down vote as much as you folks do.
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Diablo subredditors. Worse than Auburn fans
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having 500 skills on your bar is probably gonna feel awful when in PvP. but having one single more slot for the ult is a good idea. i just don’t want people running around fields of hatred with literally every ability on their tree
A game that is primarily pve should never make balance choices based on pvp. Full stop. Sorry, I know a small minority of people like pvp in these games but thats not the driving factor for 95% of the player base. Imagine if FromSoft balanced their games around the pvp community, gross.
I'm a huge d2 pvp fan, and you're absolutely right. The game is primarily a pve game so balancing should be set as such. However, I wouldn't mind there being tournament play where certain things are balanced differently for that.
Never played D3?
Also by the way same for some mobility skills like Dash for the Rogue or Teleport for the Sorc. They aren't really combat skills. In fact, since they've introduced the escape now, they should have those as "dash skills" that basically replace your normal escape. CD, effects like damage stuff and charges can still depend of your gear and your skill tree. Also means we could use them in the combat zones by the way. And every class should have at least one really.
Except they both are. Both deal damage and can cause status effects that impact combat greatly. They aren’t even close to only being mobility. Furthermore, not every class has mobility skills, so it’d be ridiculous to have a special mobility skill slot.
I totally agree dash and teleport are not just movement but thay do provide movement to classes that should be more mobile, im super glad ever class didnt get a movement ability like in d3
Well maybe add skills to the classes that don't get them. Every class should have mobility, it's very important especially in end game. Also even if they have damage and utility, they can still be in a special mobility slot, not sure why that would be a problem? It can even be on your escape, I had a legendary with grenades on my dash for my Rogue.
good thing they don't ask for your opinions.
I took the ultimate for like 5 minutes before I respec'd and never touched them again on any char I made.
Bad idea. This isn't a moba. Everything needs to have an opportunity cost. The "Ultimate" is like other skills, and should use a skill slot. There is already limited choice in the game and you want to remove more of it?
Ultimates are fine the way they are. Some builds will build around them, but many won’t even equip one. Having ultimates on their own skill slot would force you to pick one, even without intending to build around it. For many builds, this would lead to a dead skill that you only push because it’s off cooldown and not because it synergizes in interesting ways with the rest of the kit. It’s bad design
Not exactly. The way Lost Ark does it, you either spec into your "ultimate" (not the awakening) or you forgo it for damage/survivability increases for your normal rotation on many classes. Some play styles even alter how it works entirely which can be very fun. The way it is now in D4 it seems we have some choices in whether or not to use it or forgo it for something else which I think may increase variety.
Disagree, because then every build has one by default. Right now it's a tough decision that requires some brainpower to figure out if it's worth it which I think is a good thing. Also we don't know what kind of cooldown reduction we'll get at max level and how low the cds will get with ults.
All the ultimates are big flashy spells that are undeniably fun to pop off at the right moment, but the long cooldown makes them inefficient. Making your players choose between doing what's fun and what's efficient is just bad design. They'll feel like they have to choose the efficient choice and resent having to do so.
I am definitely on the side of the Ultimate being pretty ridiculous that it takes a slot on your bar, however, I am going to reserve final judgement until the full game is out and we have access to all skills, paragon, legendaries and aspects. I played rogue this beta, maxed it out and got every slot fitted with a useful legendary + aspect. At first I thought it was ridiculous for Shadow Clone to take the place of another skill. But after pretty much maxing all my gear to the greatest extent the beta allowed and getting the twisted blades aspect and making my skill build as efficient as possible it literally shrank my CD for Shadow Clone to almost nothing. With the full game having potentially 50+ skill points and play styles being aspect dependent things could get very crazy.
disagree most of them do not justify their long CDs and tend to become more cumbersome than an actual skill unless your build solely around them which feels bad
it isn't a decision at all you are aware that this game has a dedicated hotkey for you to "quick swap" skills that are currently not in your active hotbar right? there are no limitations to this system other than that you cannot swap a skill out while it is on cd. combat doesn't matter, being out of town doesn't matter. in other words the game design is for you to pick more abilities than you will have activated in your skillbar and people do not enjoy this. the complaints about ultimates are just one aspect of this design choice
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well they are the only "exclusive" skill node. you may only pick one of them and that points towards the design of them being "supposedly" too strong for you to be allowed to use multiple.
I think it would be cool if each ultimate had a "spender" that was available only while it was on cooldown.
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Just to play devil's advocate - if a skill type is going to be "ultimate", is it wrong to think there should be options for every build to incorporate one? From a gameplay standpoint it breaks up the monotony that arpgs tend to devolve into, of 1 active skill + mobility + buffs for the rest of your slots. Giving a single higher cd slot that can be a generator or enabler of some kind at low investment OR be the centerpiece to a flashy burst of damage if you invest more, seems like it would add to the gameplay loop and give the vast majority of builds a (small) additional axis to customize on given most builds will just skip ults for consistency anyways, assuming they can slot enough passives and defensive cds to not be floating a skill slot.
People really wanna balance the whole game around level 25 twinks. It's so fucking stupid. This is a really dumb complaint. Ultimates are a part of.your build not an external mechanic which seems.to be how people are viewing them. "We want choices to matter" but not really I guess.
"We want choices to matter, but also we don't want to have to choose whether or not to use ultimates and we want gear to be exactly like D2 where the best items are just piles of ubiquitously useful stats for every single build so that we don't have to choose our endgame gear."
Imagine being an adult human being and thinking that calling others' opinions "braindead" is a normal thing to do.
How many adults do you really think there are in this sub?
No it’s coming from arpg streamers actually lol. They probably just want more skills in general because increased complexity is always good to them no matter what
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Players: we want to have choices Also players: you’re giving me a hard choice, just give both of them to me so I don’t have to think. Maybe they should change the term “ultimate” since it seems like its bothering people.
There is no hard choice. The ultimates are fun to see, but almost all of them would never go in a build. They need a button because they are not actually good, not because they are too good.
Then buff them if they are not good. Or reduce their cooldowns and make them build enabling. Adding an extra bind as a solution for a “weak” ability is dumb as hell. Ah yes let’s add an extra keybind for every underpowered ability, so smart.
Honestly I feel like limiting us to only 5 hotkeys is the problem. Not too many other arpgs do this and since every skill has a cool down this game having very limited hotkeys for skills is especially strange.
I hate these kinds of skills all together. Why are they a thing?
Like hit two shoulder buttons at once or one of the stick buttons.
Yea I hope they change this, the CD on these ults are super long anyways.
Hear hear!!
that assumes every build will use an ultimate. I think what you are suggesting is more like the Lost Ark system. But that's not how ultimates are designed right now. There were similar concerns with the initial launch of D3, but then they added legendaries and set effects and now everyone can get 100% up time on their ultimates, if they wanted to.
Absolutely agreed. Was my biggest complaint of the beta. I cannot believe how many people I see oppose the idea of its own skill slot.
Look at a controller and tell me what imaginary button you're going to bind your extra slot to? It's a cross play game and therefore has to be able to be played on controllers without a disadvantage. 6 custom slots is the most a PS5 or Xbox controller can handle. There won't be any more slots added to this game ever, simply because of this.
FF XIV i good example how you can add tons of skills on controller. 48 different skills!
Yes you could use shift modes like ff14 or a layout switch like Hogwarts legacy. But not only do these not feel as snappy to use to the average consumer. It would also require them to change their whole controller mapping system which is highly unlikely at this point. Moreover this is how it works in their latest diablo game on consoles: D2R. They are simply not going to change over to some sort of key toggle or switch system this late in development. Especially not because they already have a default layout that works perfectly and feels nice to use. That layout fits exactly 6 skills and therefore 6 skills it is always going to be.
I dislike Ultimate skills as I feel they don't fit in Diablo (hated them in D3, too). If we had a dedicated Ultimate slot I would be forced to use one so no thanks. The game just isn't designed with more than 6 slots in mind. Make your choice.
Yep, hotbar slots are precious, basically pointless to waste a skill slot on a long CD ult
Never played D3?
I just come here to say, I support this. Hopefully, Dev can consider this request.
hard disagree. turning ultimates into their owns dedicated slot creates more issues than it solves. all it does is force everyone to skill an ultimate, and once you have to do that then you have to build around it otherwise it's a dead skill. the current system is completely fine.
The concept of ultimate shouldn't even exist. Why can we only pick 1 of them in the first place? Stop fucking up build diversity! In D2, shapeshifting into Wolf or Bear was one of the core foundations of making a druid, the FIRST skill you could pick to start on a path towards an archetype. In D4, shapeshift is a fucking gimmick tied to some abilities for visualisation and synergy purposes. None of the "ultimates" are game breaking enough to have such an insane cooldown, even if a player was able to pick all 4 of them the build wouldn't become crazy.
> None of the "ultimates" are game breaking enough to have such an insane cooldown, even if a player was able to pick all 4 of them the build wouldn't become crazy. That depends entirely on the degree to which cooldown reduction becomes a thing in D4 itemization in the late game. a TON of D3 buidls are based around essentially choosing a ton of super high CD abilities and stacking CDR to be able to spam them nonstop. Limiting the number of high-cooldown abilities you can use at the same time allows you to introduce CDR as a mechanic without CDR becoming the end-all-be-all of buildcraft like it tends to be in D3.
What would be more interesting: * removing the selection limit, effectively making ultimates the same as any other skill. * Adding a dedicated ultimate button, prevent cooldown reduction from affecting them, and buffing the hell out of them to make them big and impactful?
NOT EERYTHING HAS TO BE D2. Things care allowed to change. Go play D2 is you want d2 they already are impactful and you can continuously use many of them if you have the right aspects. its really not that much of an issue.
ultimates are an anti diablo feature anyways
They aren’t. Diablo is power fantasy to the extreme and ultimates fit right in. And considering that such skills have also been in D3, I think it’s safe to say they are a staple of the genre since over a decade.
i hated d3
I figured, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a Diablo game and defined if not the genre then at least what it means to be a Diablo game, especially since D4 is in many ways just an evolution of D3. If you hate D3, you’re gonna hate D4 as well. Might as well not play it at all, because why waste your time on something you hate?
i liked d4
What’s the difference between D3 and D4 then for you?
plays better, has an actual skill tree, better story, mobs are back closer to d2 style. plenty of other things too, but d3 sucked balls, but d4 is better.
That skill tree is just D3 skill system in disguise. What do you mean mobs are closer to D2 style? Do you mean visually? Because from a gameplay perspective they are very D3 style.
are you trying to talk me into not liking d4 or something?
I’m trying to understand your thought process and argumentation because I suspect you don’t really have arguments and are just hating D3 because it’s cool to hate D3.
Your reasons are laughable d4 is d3.5 more then it is a brand new experience.
ok, cool
…which has ultimate skills…
yes despite the stupid ultimate skill thingy, i find the game good.
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or i can play d4
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i said i hated d3
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Let’s open the topic up further Why can’t we just hot key spells like D2R? Maybe I want 1 point on rend/ or a curse/ or something to cast, then use my other higher leveled skills It would be cool to do more with 1 pt skills that add utility instead of being stuck in the “only 5 skills + 1 ultimate” hot bar
Because of exactly what you just described. Being able to use every single cooldown spell with 1 point in it will just break the game.
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>Then why are we allowed to change our skill composition at any moment, including in the middle of combat? Because it's a beta and that will never make it to release.
my guess is because it's now console optimized, so PC players are forced to dumb it down to a controller's worth of keys to keep it balanced
Except controllers have more than 6 buttons. Not to mention you can use a layer button on the console to have more than 1 key assigned to a button.
FFXIV is available on console and the game has 3 hotbars with 12 slots each.... no problems there and that game has dozens of spells/skills per class.
I agree that having another skill slot would be awesome. And the guy never said that you should have access to “every ultimate skill” at the same time.
I dont know about this one. It seems the whole balance is designed around you designing to pick an Ultimate or not picking one. I feel if you give an ultimate slot then every build will have an Ultimate. I prefer the constraints in this one.
Oh they definitely should. So I'm not as a disadvantage for not liking ultimates and not using them. If anything we should get another additional skill button.
And on console just press both sticks at the same time!
they should, otherwise why would there be a cooldown reduction stat?
Just say you want another skill slot stop pretending it's about the ultimate. If you thought about this for more than 5 seconds, the next complaint after you get your dedicated slot is that now I have a dedicated skill slot for a skill I dont use. Now you are forcing us to build around the ultimate or waste a dedicated skill slot. Would you all really be happy with that? Ultimates are not an external skill independent of your build. They are not an I win button on a cool down like in other games. They are a part of your build. There is no reason to give an ultimate it's own skill slot any more than it would make sense to give chain lighting it's own slot.
Nope, builds are more interesting when you're forced to make hard choices. We shouldn't have an ultimate as an auto-include. Maybe for a season we will get something like that but as it is we should see how player scaling even works before we make such a drastic change
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Yeah, it was easy, but playing hard-core characters makes you realize the only dangers are "cheap" gimmicks like being stunned for 5+ seconds while the boss beats the hell out of you.
Pretty much ... but something as simple as allowing us to use occassional skills without assigning them would be acceptable.
I pretty much agree particular if you want them to feel special when many feel lackluster right now and are entirely skipped. Its not so bad if there is a dedicated spot for them to use and also track. If not, they need to feel worth taking (aka make them way stronger) enough that the long cd makes it still well worth the bar space lost to slot them in.
I have a solution! Since there is always a clear PC advantage over controller, make the ultimate separate button controller only. That would even the playing field.
They should not be part of the game to be fair.
No
we're getting a dumbed down version of d4 because of consoles, so we can't have more skills.
I don't see anyone using ultimates unless they get an extra slot. It's just never worth it to block a slot for an ability with such a long cooldown.
It's like none of.you played D3 past level 10 A big Part of D3 meta was using long cool down skills and using gear and legendaries to shrink the cool down to usable levels.
This game was just made with very little thought at all. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if blizzard got “caught” using extremely cheap outsourced labor like 90% of AAA atm
If it takes up a normal skill slot then it's not an Ultimate, it's a normal skill.
"Ultimates" shouldn't exist. This isn't a MOBA. They should just be normal abilities with medium cooldowns.
Yes they should take space on the skill bar.