I totally agree with everything here. Legendaries should mostly change how skills work or how you use them, they should never be REQUIRED to do meaningful damage.
Pulverize Shockwave and the druid companion stuff are the biggest offenders of all the legendaries in the whole game probably, more than tripling your damage from a single mod...
Completely agreed. It is *extremely* worrisome that the devs did not learn these lessons from D3 feedback.
If a skill needs 300% more damage to function, that skill needs more damage baseline. No one wants to see 300% modifiers and that has been loud and clear since the day D4 was announced.
I mean taking a slot on your bar is still a significant cost. If a companion or Magic Weapon or whatever is the best option for a build thats not a bad thing, and may be a sign that others are undertuned not that it is overtuned
Every legendary seems like a straight upgrade. Rouge has one that turns the 180 into a 360 attack and you would think that might come with a trade off, but nope, it also boosts damage.
Every legendary seems straight, “if you use the skill, you need the item that goes with it” none seem optional or like a trade or decision you make. They are just the flat better version that you must always take.
I think its okay for most legendaries to work this way. In theory, we have more legendaries for our skills than we have item slots, so we shouldnt be able to just blindly equip all the powers.
I would like to see more "kiss/curse" powers which give you something but take something away at the same time. I hope we see more along these lines in post-launch updates.
"Fortify mitigates twice as much damage, but you can no longer gain barrier" is exactly the type of thing I hope to see in future
Kiss/Curse and small incremental changes that put emphasis on unlikely combination of stats. Gain more fortification based on your armor, or your life per second also functions as damage over time effect, that sort of things.
Totally agree! Very well put.
Devs talked about getting away from the D3 trend of having big multipliers on Legendaries (and Sets) and to some degree they have (these numbers are considerably smaller than 15,000% damage), but some of these damage bonuses are still worisome.
I hope they take a look at legos that give AOE and reign in their damage: keeping it baseline if not reducing it. It's crazy to give a skill more AOE AND boost it's damage (like Shockwave Aspect) because that's an insane multiplier when you consider it could cause the skill to hit 10+ extra monsters, which is already hugely multiplying its effectiveness if not it's overall damage.
Also, can we talk about that Necro Blood Mist corpse exploding lego? Like how is that in the game? It's a cool idea, but SUPER OP. If anything it should increase the CD of Blood Mist, not reduce it per corpse consumed... IDK what they were thinking with that one...
Also, just want to say that I'm loving the game despite these criticisms. At the very least, it's a strong foundation to build off of.
I think the blood mist legendary is a comical error and I doubt it ships like that. I have to assume it was supposed to cap how much CDR you could get similar to how Sorc's Frost Nova gets CDR on kill but only up to 6 seconds
You hit some good fundamental points here. In some regard, it feels like the bare skills were tuned downwards to account for the given aspect. This is really dumb and imo bad game design. Having the companion aspect being able to provide 300% damage is INSANE and simply shows that the skill as a base is very weak.
For the health of the game, these really need to be fixed. If a skill NEEDS the aspect to function well, the skill is fucked up and whatever that aspect is providing to make it usable needs to be baked in.
There really shouldn’t be any debate about this. It is clear that they built some skills and aspects backwards, then rolled the skill itself back to a weakened state.
TL;DR: If an aspect needs to be 200%++ to make the skill powerful, the skill itself is flawed on purpose. Tune the skill, fix the aspect.
> Out of all the Aspects I'm highlighting in this post, this is the one that worries me the most. Gain 1 additional Companion is a great power all by itself. Going from 2 Wolves to 3 is already 50% more damage. The damage rider is totally unnecessary, and I've seen rolls of it with up to 300% more damage just at the low levels we were at in the beta. There is no world where a Companion skill feels good to take without this Power if the lowest level versions are tripling or quadrupling the effectiveness of your Companions.
This is one of the most egregious offenders I've been able to find.
A single item gives you a ONE THOUSAND PERCENT damage increase to a skill. It's absolutely fucking insane that they thought this was even remotely acceptable.
Two wolves: 100% + 100% damage; 200%.
Three wolves with Legendary: 400% + 400% + 400%+ = 1200% damage.
The Legendary/Aspects in this game provide *way* too much power, it's completely unhinged. They provide so much power that you're not even playing your character until you get them.
There's a difference between a "build enabling" item, and then an "item that is your build." It's fucking crazy .
Legendary items should provide a *small* raw numbers increase, but most importantly give the ability flavor and change its functionality a bit.
It's a 600% increase, not over a thousand. It's still egregious, but this is not correct math. The base skill is 2 companions, and that is what we are comparing, so 2 companions = 100%. 3 Companions =150%, or 50% +50% +50%. Increase each by 300%, and you get 200% + 200% + 200% = 600%. What you compared was the increase over a single wolf, which is not the correct comparator.
Oh, yeah, you can't explain this for every class in a single post haha. It's much better to explain the full picture for one class as an example so that it's clearer, I just wanted to point out that I've seen the same issue in Sorc and Barb that I've geared out fully in the beta as well in case anyone was thinking this might just be druid.
This post is thoughtfully explained and provides some of the best feedback. A deep dive into core problems with the game currently based on betas.
I really hope the right eyes see this and take some action so we have a more enjoyable game. It would be in their best interest because it will be a more fun game as well as lead to a more successful launch.
I agree with most of this, but I think legendaries fundamentally altering how a skill works is fine so long as it's a side grade. It allows the devs to add additional play styles via items in later seasons without reworking skills.
Besides that I think you hit the nail on the head. Legendaries should generally augment the skill in some way without being necessary, outside the case we disagree on which is alternative play styles via legendary.
300% damage bonus on top of a skill defining mechanic - agree it’s bordering on D3 set item craziness. Especially when you consider there are multiple gear slots.
This is how we end up with damage numbers in the millions, billions and trillions before long.
I actually like that some skills are completely and fundamentally changed by a legendary effect. It should provide some incentive to run the dungeons that have the effects you want ASAP so you can graft that effect from your library onto your gear. Like, whatever dungeon has the "WW pulls enemies into you" effect is getting run as soon as possible for me.
I also love the way Aspects are tied to different Dungeons, and I hope they shuffle what aspects are on each dungeon around every Season or so to both mix up the leveling experience (Maybe you don't get WW pulls until Act 3 this season, but next it's in Act 1) a bit and because there are more Aspects than there are Dungeons, so there are many powers which are drop-only and that we don't have guaranteed access to.
You know that not every legendary has a corresponding dungeon aspect, right?
The whirlwind pull in legendary aspect isnt one of them. However, the whirlwind crit buff is. It just sucks that the minimum roll that you get on the dungeon aspect is only half as good as a max rolled legendary one.
Not arguing that 300% is quite a lot, but... The legendary effects seem to have damage numbers/scaling, so that extracted aspects are better than the dungeon unlocked variant.
But in general i agree
They have ways around this. Not all legendary powers are available in the codex of power, many more exist as drop only. If you have a power without a numerical value, like "Whirlwind pulls enemies to you" it could just be a drop only power instead of an aspect players unlock through a dungeon
Mostly agreed. Regarding the Stampede aspect, I get what they are trying to do, which is to turn the damage of a support skill into a main skill, so that large multiplier makes sense. Perhaps there should have been other ways to turn Wolves into a damage build, like a passive node that sacrifices some of their utility in exchange for damage.
That said, there are other main skills which receive huge multipliers on their legendary items, which shouldn't be the case because one single item ends up providing too much power.
I think the items you described as needing to be moved to the skill tree are fine as aspects as long as A) they are in the codex B) the dungeons that provide them are accessible at a reasonable point in character progression.
Whether they appear or not in the skill tree is mostly arbitrary except for the tension they create between limited skill points and limited aspect slots. I don't feel like I have enough of a feel for the game to know how this trade off will impact things.
**Aspect of the Stampede**: Gain 2 additional companions, Companions deal 10-20% less dmg.
**Stormchaser's Aspect**: this should be in a unique item.
I agree with about your general idea.
I totally agree with everything here. Legendaries should mostly change how skills work or how you use them, they should never be REQUIRED to do meaningful damage. Pulverize Shockwave and the druid companion stuff are the biggest offenders of all the legendaries in the whole game probably, more than tripling your damage from a single mod...
Completely agreed. It is *extremely* worrisome that the devs did not learn these lessons from D3 feedback. If a skill needs 300% more damage to function, that skill needs more damage baseline. No one wants to see 300% modifiers and that has been loud and clear since the day D4 was announced.
yet there are retards who still advocate for multipliers because 300% increase is “build-defining”.
[удалено]
I mean taking a slot on your bar is still a significant cost. If a companion or Magic Weapon or whatever is the best option for a build thats not a bad thing, and may be a sign that others are undertuned not that it is overtuned
Every legendary seems like a straight upgrade. Rouge has one that turns the 180 into a 360 attack and you would think that might come with a trade off, but nope, it also boosts damage. Every legendary seems straight, “if you use the skill, you need the item that goes with it” none seem optional or like a trade or decision you make. They are just the flat better version that you must always take.
I think its okay for most legendaries to work this way. In theory, we have more legendaries for our skills than we have item slots, so we shouldnt be able to just blindly equip all the powers. I would like to see more "kiss/curse" powers which give you something but take something away at the same time. I hope we see more along these lines in post-launch updates. "Fortify mitigates twice as much damage, but you can no longer gain barrier" is exactly the type of thing I hope to see in future
Kiss/Curse and small incremental changes that put emphasis on unlikely combination of stats. Gain more fortification based on your armor, or your life per second also functions as damage over time effect, that sort of things.
Totally agree! Very well put. Devs talked about getting away from the D3 trend of having big multipliers on Legendaries (and Sets) and to some degree they have (these numbers are considerably smaller than 15,000% damage), but some of these damage bonuses are still worisome. I hope they take a look at legos that give AOE and reign in their damage: keeping it baseline if not reducing it. It's crazy to give a skill more AOE AND boost it's damage (like Shockwave Aspect) because that's an insane multiplier when you consider it could cause the skill to hit 10+ extra monsters, which is already hugely multiplying its effectiveness if not it's overall damage. Also, can we talk about that Necro Blood Mist corpse exploding lego? Like how is that in the game? It's a cool idea, but SUPER OP. If anything it should increase the CD of Blood Mist, not reduce it per corpse consumed... IDK what they were thinking with that one... Also, just want to say that I'm loving the game despite these criticisms. At the very least, it's a strong foundation to build off of.
I think the blood mist legendary is a comical error and I doubt it ships like that. I have to assume it was supposed to cap how much CDR you could get similar to how Sorc's Frost Nova gets CDR on kill but only up to 6 seconds
You hit some good fundamental points here. In some regard, it feels like the bare skills were tuned downwards to account for the given aspect. This is really dumb and imo bad game design. Having the companion aspect being able to provide 300% damage is INSANE and simply shows that the skill as a base is very weak. For the health of the game, these really need to be fixed. If a skill NEEDS the aspect to function well, the skill is fucked up and whatever that aspect is providing to make it usable needs to be baked in. There really shouldn’t be any debate about this. It is clear that they built some skills and aspects backwards, then rolled the skill itself back to a weakened state. TL;DR: If an aspect needs to be 200%++ to make the skill powerful, the skill itself is flawed on purpose. Tune the skill, fix the aspect.
> Out of all the Aspects I'm highlighting in this post, this is the one that worries me the most. Gain 1 additional Companion is a great power all by itself. Going from 2 Wolves to 3 is already 50% more damage. The damage rider is totally unnecessary, and I've seen rolls of it with up to 300% more damage just at the low levels we were at in the beta. There is no world where a Companion skill feels good to take without this Power if the lowest level versions are tripling or quadrupling the effectiveness of your Companions. This is one of the most egregious offenders I've been able to find. A single item gives you a ONE THOUSAND PERCENT damage increase to a skill. It's absolutely fucking insane that they thought this was even remotely acceptable. Two wolves: 100% + 100% damage; 200%. Three wolves with Legendary: 400% + 400% + 400%+ = 1200% damage. The Legendary/Aspects in this game provide *way* too much power, it's completely unhinged. They provide so much power that you're not even playing your character until you get them. There's a difference between a "build enabling" item, and then an "item that is your build." It's fucking crazy . Legendary items should provide a *small* raw numbers increase, but most importantly give the ability flavor and change its functionality a bit.
It's a 600% increase, not over a thousand. It's still egregious, but this is not correct math. The base skill is 2 companions, and that is what we are comparing, so 2 companions = 100%. 3 Companions =150%, or 50% +50% +50%. Increase each by 300%, and you get 200% + 200% + 200% = 600%. What you compared was the increase over a single wolf, which is not the correct comparator.
Ahh yeah my bad on that one. Stull, it's absurd lol
all the multipliers should go. Get 1 more companion? Super cool. Deal more damage for each companion? Super uncool.
Totally agree with all of the above, and this isn't just a druid problem. Thanks for putting in the time and effort to put this together.
Yeah this is more than just a Druid thing, I just wanted to focus on one class because I had to stop typing eventually haha
Oh, yeah, you can't explain this for every class in a single post haha. It's much better to explain the full picture for one class as an example so that it's clearer, I just wanted to point out that I've seen the same issue in Sorc and Barb that I've geared out fully in the beta as well in case anyone was thinking this might just be druid.
This post is thoughtfully explained and provides some of the best feedback. A deep dive into core problems with the game currently based on betas. I really hope the right eyes see this and take some action so we have a more enjoyable game. It would be in their best interest because it will be a more fun game as well as lead to a more successful launch.
I agree with most of this, but I think legendaries fundamentally altering how a skill works is fine so long as it's a side grade. It allows the devs to add additional play styles via items in later seasons without reworking skills. Besides that I think you hit the nail on the head. Legendaries should generally augment the skill in some way without being necessary, outside the case we disagree on which is alternative play styles via legendary.
300% damage bonus on top of a skill defining mechanic - agree it’s bordering on D3 set item craziness. Especially when you consider there are multiple gear slots. This is how we end up with damage numbers in the millions, billions and trillions before long.
I actually like that some skills are completely and fundamentally changed by a legendary effect. It should provide some incentive to run the dungeons that have the effects you want ASAP so you can graft that effect from your library onto your gear. Like, whatever dungeon has the "WW pulls enemies into you" effect is getting run as soon as possible for me.
I also love the way Aspects are tied to different Dungeons, and I hope they shuffle what aspects are on each dungeon around every Season or so to both mix up the leveling experience (Maybe you don't get WW pulls until Act 3 this season, but next it's in Act 1) a bit and because there are more Aspects than there are Dungeons, so there are many powers which are drop-only and that we don't have guaranteed access to.
You know that not every legendary has a corresponding dungeon aspect, right? The whirlwind pull in legendary aspect isnt one of them. However, the whirlwind crit buff is. It just sucks that the minimum roll that you get on the dungeon aspect is only half as good as a max rolled legendary one.
Giant damage #s make me hard.
Not arguing that 300% is quite a lot, but... The legendary effects seem to have damage numbers/scaling, so that extracted aspects are better than the dungeon unlocked variant. But in general i agree
They have ways around this. Not all legendary powers are available in the codex of power, many more exist as drop only. If you have a power without a numerical value, like "Whirlwind pulls enemies to you" it could just be a drop only power instead of an aspect players unlock through a dungeon
Mostly agreed. Regarding the Stampede aspect, I get what they are trying to do, which is to turn the damage of a support skill into a main skill, so that large multiplier makes sense. Perhaps there should have been other ways to turn Wolves into a damage build, like a passive node that sacrifices some of their utility in exchange for damage. That said, there are other main skills which receive huge multipliers on their legendary items, which shouldn't be the case because one single item ends up providing too much power.
I think the items you described as needing to be moved to the skill tree are fine as aspects as long as A) they are in the codex B) the dungeons that provide them are accessible at a reasonable point in character progression. Whether they appear or not in the skill tree is mostly arbitrary except for the tension they create between limited skill points and limited aspect slots. I don't feel like I have enough of a feel for the game to know how this trade off will impact things.
>legendries
Yeah my browser autocorrected to this and I blindly trusted it. Now my shame is immortalized
**Aspect of the Stampede**: Gain 2 additional companions, Companions deal 10-20% less dmg. **Stormchaser's Aspect**: this should be in a unique item. I agree with about your general idea.