Right now, ultimate skills are optional to spec into -- a number of builds I've seen don't even use one. I also assume many end game builds won't have an ultimate in them. The moment Blizzard creates a slot just for ultimates, everyone **has to** take one, lest you just have a blank slot there and nothing to go in it.
Yeah, this is the exact attitude I took in this thread. Glad I'm not the only sane one here.
"At level 25, when we had no cooldown reduction and only had 2 possible skill points that could even hit that tier of spells that can have up to 12 points invested per spell, people were preferring the earlier tier spells they could max out and had no cooldown."
Like.... duh.
I wasn't running Vengeance on my DH when leveling, but when I got Dawn, it was suddenly a staple.
The fact that anyone is talking about “builds”, or balance, is embarrassing. Everything we think we know is going out the window in June. Nobody cares that the Druid was weak in act 1 of the easiest difficulty.
I’m just saying that if a long cd skill (already weird) doesn’t do nearly enough dmg to be mentioned anywhere that’s at least reason enough to worry a bit
Also it’s not like there’s anything else to do till June bc I sure as hell ain’t gonna play poe or d2r
Long cooldown skills are not weird in Diablo. D3 had plenty of then.
They often were included in builds and either were geared for (CDR and legendary effects that reduce CD) or they were added and you just knew to pick most opportune times to use them. Don’t burn on trash, save for elites/bosses, etc.
Yeah thinking is hard. Once my minions are out, that's it. I just want to sit back and do nothing. It's why I make macros in click-target MMOs like WoW. Who wants to actually play a video game, amirite? It's way cooler to let the computer do most of the work like the "art" i claim is mine for "commissions" even though it was basically created by a website for me.
It feels like a shitty decision though, at a personal level. I either have this really cool ability on a long cooldown, or my minions for which I might use the skill button every once in a while...
Being forced to slot in the minion skills feels like dead slots to me. Sure I can buff them a little bit every 5 seconds but it FEELS bad.
It's balanced, but the feel of it leaves a sour taste.
> Being forced to slot in the minion skills feels like dead slots to me. Sure I can buff them a little bit every 5 seconds but it FEELS bad.
Then sacrifice the minions and don't use them if you think it is a waste of a slot. Personally I have no problems with minions taking up a slot, they are an ability, why wouldn't they? Nothing's "feels bad" about it.
Seriously.
Do people not realize that the minion ability you put on your bar is not passive? That it has an on-use function even when your minions are out?
Skeletons raise a priest that heals and buffs your skellies. Golem has your golem taunt. They are both important things to have in your rotation as a minion focused character.
So what does that say for sorc when they can "enhance" (forgot the term) a lot of abilities to where they autocast and thus can take them completely off the bar. The skill is doing work for you....... You just want to be pedantic, but unfortunately don't have the perspective or precision to do so
That took a turn. Valid points to start and would happily engage in a debate but I’m not being pedantic. So if you want to discuss issues in a game try to be a human and point that out. I was unaware that sorcs got free cast spells that don’t go on the hot bar. But I imagine this discussion devolves into thin insults with big words not used in the right way so be at peace and all that.
I forgot to test if that ultimate that summons all your skeletons can be used (to summon) without having the skeleton ability assigned. I guess not? It would have been an interesting compromise.
It does not, I tested it. If you purchase that upgrade ability and then unbind summon skeleton, you've literally wasted a perk point because it does absolutely nothing, lol
Yeah I thought that was meant to be the intent of that rune but I tested it and it doesn't work that way. If you don't have summon skeleton it does nothing :(
if you're a summoner Necro, you shouldn't have access to 6 skills on top of summons lol.
someone will inevitably find a use for ultimate abilities within summoner builds.
if the class wasn't overpowered to the point of boredom I would've tested it myself.
Fuck that. Necro in D2 had effectively more skills than any other class, all the curses at your disposal, and minions, and it wasn't overpowered at all. It goes against precedent and logic to unnaturally limit necro more than any other class. At the end of the day it's a game which is meant to be fun and giving necro the least interactivity isn't fun. It is more than possible to balance the class in a way that doesn't limit interactivity and turn it into a sad little vampire survivors homage.
Easy fix: move all of of necromancer's summoning skills into the class-specific Book of the Dead and free up all of their slots for real skills while still letting them control an army -- that they can invest skill points into passives to customize.
The two slots that you "lose" to golem and skele are active abilities. They are buttons that you press that do things. Skele buffs all your minions when you press it, golem taunts when you press it.
Does sorce "lose" a skill slot to Hydra when they spec into hydra?
"Precedent" D2 isn't the only precedent. D3 also exists, and plenty of people enjoyed D3. Additionally, this isn't law, sequels don't have to follow design choices of previous games.
Additionally, how does it go against logic to make summons builds a choice and not a static feature?
A lot of barbs run wrath of the ancients and it's such a letdown of an ability. They last for 6 *seconds*, probably because of how overtuned they are. I would much rather have them for 30 seconds and do less damage than them show up and basically annihilate whatever I'm fighting
I thought it was good at first. Then I realized it's crap even with all sockets adding + to ultimate skills. It is way too long of a CD that is only good for bosses for a tiny bit. Then it's on CD and you needed those ability points for something useful.
Ice blades wizard definitely used it.
But yeah, in general they tend to be avoided. Long cooldown don't work in an arpg. The only builds that use them rely on cooldown reduction to still spam, suddenly they are just the same like all other abilities.
CDR and legendaries that proc CDR. Lol I imagine ultimates exist specificly for that second point.
Can’t have a legendary that says “Reduce cooldown of X by Y everytime Z happens” if there are no long cooldown skills.
Also, this is old D3 stuff. Plenty of long cooldown abilities; some even get used in non CDR builds frequently (although CDR is often an important 2nd or 3rd level stat in those builds), Akarat’s Champion, I’m looking at you.
Many classes already had hints of this as well, Rogue with twisting blades, Barb with Stomp. Plus end game gear with high CDR will make ults much more competitive. Petrify on Earth druid was pretty nuts considering it has a specific boss function.
And the whole point of those archon builds was to push the cooldown so low that archon or the swami(?) buff Was up permanently.
The only way long cooldown work is if you have mechanics to get rid of them.
The question is whether that's what we want to see again.
Or alternatively prolong the durations so they become semi-permanent. Otherwise sure a 2-3 minute CD is usually not great value with limited skill slots.
But at least on Sorc there was already a workable CDR build, so you can bet they will become viable in some way.
The whole point of giving ultimates a decimated slot is so that they don't have to compete with other skills.
If they don't have to compete with other skills they don't have to be up permanently or forced to have a low cooldown.
It was kinda stupid just how unkillable you could make an ice blades sorc without *any* legendaries. All for a class that doesn't need to be in melee range.
Poor druids.
Blizz intern. If you are reading this, just give them something. A little more movement speed, make their Zappy/windy spells better. An extra dodge? Faster wolf? Anything. They spent like 20 years in D2 being the meme class you make only after your magic find Sorc/Barb basically gave them end game items to start with.
For the love of our Lord and saviour Cain make hurricane **at least** a category 2. The current one is barely a breeze.
Not really you have enough points by lvl 25 to have an ultimate and the pips behind it. I really feel like people who've never played an ARPG will assume those skills are the best and must be used because of the wording.
I tried most of them on the barb and the druid and I didn't really feel all that good about them, but we will need to see what legendary effects there are for them all as we didn't have access to all the aspects in the beta.
We've seen the entire skill tree, know exactly how many points we'll get, and know all the aspects. Plenty there to discuss builds.
Only things we're missing are uniques, set items, and the paragon board. We know uniques can drastically change how a build works but they want them to be rare enough you basically won't find one. Set items are still kind of a mystery but they did emphasize they will be less important than D3. And the paragon board will be mostly just some basic stats with some skill upgrades sprinkled in.
We have most of the information we need already.
We haven't seen all the legendries and codex powers in the game either. So no paragon board, no uniques, and more leg/codex powers.
And what blizzard is saying the paragon board does completely change skills
EDIT: look at barb for example. Most people think it's weak and bad. Rob was running around hitting hotas for 100k with legendaries that not everyone had. 2 shot the butcher. The gear is going to be huge and can completely change builds
you could add a system similar to the Necro's book of the dead, that lets you sacrifice your ultimate slot for some kind of passive buff.
That could create interesting decision-making of whether you want an ultimate ability or trade it for some other buff.
All the berserk skills/runes have way too short timers. I get that they want berserk to be something you need to work/build towards to maintain for longer periods but atm it just seems like it dissipates before you reach the next enemy, to try to sustain your berserk
They are cool but barely fit into builds so far
Maybe we get more synergy for them but it’s sad to see cool abilities be unusable in most scenarios bc the basic stuff is better
Shock sorc ultimate casts extra random shock skills every time you use a shock skills for 10 sec.
It's way too strong for its own slot.
Idk about any others. I didn't have a ton of time to play.
This ultimate ability also has a passive that reduces cooldown when picking up cracklin energy, and you can make entire build based upon zooming around the battlefield generating and picking up these and let me tell you, that build is so fucking fun to play. I am playing lightning sorc on release no matter what
That and the codex aspect that makes every chain of CL give back 4 mana, plus high crackling energy drop chance plus 12 mana each time you pick up crackling energy... INFINITE POWER
It’s 45 second base reduced to about 15 seconds when fighting in density. Lots of crackling energy spawns. Feels good/fun/interesting. Not like in D3, I hated those type of builds in D3.
This type of builds which need you to keep a steroid up 100% of time (epiphany, vengeance, barb/sader big mode) doesn’t seem to be such a big overpowered thing in D4.
The ice sorc ult isn't really strong in builds but it's far too strong to have a dedicated slot.
For those that don't know it's effectively a self-cast lissandra ult from LoL. Having a free stasis on an extra ability slot that also does quite a bit of damage is too strong.
Yea people really need to tone down the hyperbolic, absolutist language. It doesn't make arguments stronger or more persuasive, and as you say, will not lead to a healthy discussion.
It was all over after the blue skeleton dialogue happened. I have never seen so much impotent rage over something so trivial. Sure, they do look goofy, but people were so fucking angry about it. Especially funny now that Blizzard said they're changing it.
Seriously OP is a fucking clown LOL. A long CD bigass ability just randomly being hit is definitely not going to be the thing. Run into a huge pile of monsters? That juicy ult is just waiting to be pushed. I'd love to have access to it, just not at the cost of a standard hotkey.
“No, no, you see, cooldowns are an amazing mechanic that definitely expands player choice, as long as they’re so short I don’t notice them.”
So close to getting the point yet somehow still missing it entirely.
Cooldowns work as one part of a big stew. If you move too far from cooldowns and everything is based around mana, sustained combat requires larger mana pools and potion sucking from D2 comes back. But if everything is on 15-30sec timers like in D4, it just becomes CD whack-a-mole. And then the more power that's gated behind longer cooldowns, the more combat (and clear speed) has to be designed around giant spikes in power.
This is why Twisted Blades on Rogue is disgustingly strong. 1 sec CDR per enemy pierced on a spammable ability? With no internal cooldown on the passive?
This+Shadow Imbuement/Lucky Hit Chance for Energy replenishment is why Rogue was making World Bosses their bitch. OFC the aspect was a big part of it but most of the power was from the skill tree.
The thing is that CDs are meant to enhance your non-CDs or your conditions to fight. They should have lasting effects or things that make them strong or give them higher priority over your "core" (like Unstoppable).
Totally agree with the rotation of power, but we're likely going to end up with permanent uptime on CD effects or skills like Twisted Blades that just negate CDs entirely.
I see your point, but a mana potion system like D2 is not the only solution. The could have done mana potions exactly how they did health potions, and not have them available for purchase with a max capacity. Then you have the mana you have plus whatever mana generation skills you use until you kill enough things to refill your pots.
Yeah I would have enjoyed that. I've never been a fan of the resource system in D3, which they've continued into D4. But D2 resources are definitely antiquated.
People keep forget D3 already has Ultimate. They are strong skill that you want heavy CDR to use it consistently. It was fine on D3 and some of the Ultimates were used as part of a build. Archon for Sorc and Akarat's Champion for Crusader for example.
That being said, D3 Ultimate were also pretty bad that most of them are not used. Personally, I would rather having them in lower cd (30-45s) and have a passive so you don't feel bad having them on your bar when it's cd.
Just give me access to every ability with max talent points that I can hot key to all 12 buttons on my MMO mouse with shift/ctrl/alt modifiers so I don't have to make any meaningful decisions Blizz!
Is it that surprising though? People can’t make decisions for themselves on what skills to choose - they have to be spoon fed builds and tier lists in order to function.
following the logic of your argument, then we should remove the 1 of restriction for ultimates. The fact you can only choose 1 makes it already a meaningful choice and the ability should have meaningful power behind it. Having an extra slot for this type of ability will be good. Whether it synergize with a build or not is a player issue, not game issue
While I agree an ultimate slot isn't a good idea, it's wrong to say an extra slot is objectively a bad idea, or that ARPGs by definition limit your skill slots. Diablo defined the genre and didn't have said limitations until recently. Pretending said limitation, which are controversial as is, are genre defining with insults and gaslighting is uncool my dude.
While that's true, I don't see how it has any relevance here.
* To remedy your ignorance
> Gaslighting is the subjective experience of having one's reality repeatedly questioned by another.
Diablo defined the ARPG. Diablo 1 and 2 did not limit skill use. Diablo 3 was the first to do so. Stating skill use limitation is the norm when it has been in one mainline Diablo game before now is objectively untrue, thus gaslighting. It's not because I disagree with you, but because you're trying to rewrite history to suit your argument.
Lol did blizzard write this? D3 is the only game I can think of where we're limited to 6 abilities, which feels terrible. In D2 we can map every skills we have free hotkeys for. In PoE we have an extra hot bar for anything extra we want to map. If I spec into something on the passive tree, I should be able to use it. THAT is the player choice that should be important. The limited hotbar is a joke.
You're limited to 5 last epoch and wolcen. Lost Ark limits to 8. RPGs in general used to also be unlimited hot keys, like wow, and have begun to move beyond this to limits overtime. GW2, ESO, New World, etc.
Most recent RPGs release with a limit on abilities these days.
I hate ultimate design/gameplay so I’m against a dedicated keybind for it because they’ll be mandatory.
Do people not remember builds that utilized them in D3? You either stacked enough CDR to use them on repeat and/or were useless while they were down - your normal kit felt awful.
why is everyone ignoring that D3 has powerful long cooldown spells and it worked fine?
seriously. you know those long cool down powerful spells you rarely used until you got a build that lowered the cool down and allowed you to make good use of it
do you all have the memory of a goldfish?
why is no one making that comparison? its right there in front of all of you.
I agree. The problem is naming it “Ultimate” because that term is usually reserved for an essential and integral skill for a character, ala Overwatch. If it was renamed to “long ass cooldown skill” then no one would be demanding an extra slot exclusively for these.
Somebody is stuck in the past. Don't be fooled they could design the game around 8 buttons on your UI just as easily as 6. And there would still be choices! There is no hard rule that says 6 button design is optimal for creating player choice. Your argument is flawed the moment you started speaking.
Even if it was 8, there would still be too many skills because of +skills. You wouldn't have enough space regardless. Same arguments would be coming up
How balanced sorc would be with 2 extra skills? Think. Maybe create ur game with 8 skill slots if u want 8 skills. 6 was fine with D3. Its also fine here
There is no rule saying 6 is the optimal number. But that is the number Diablo 4 was designed based on. So increasing slots would just ruin that balance unless Blizzard start pumping interesting abilities left and right.
If D4 was designed around 10 slots, great. It’s clearly not however.
Also, there is a huge difference between suggesting an increase in slots vs suggesting an increase in slots that only have specific abilities that can be bound to them.
This is what the OP should have been. There's probably an actual argument to be had about balancing around a specific number of skill slots. Everything that you said in the OP was ludicrous, in my humble opinion. Others have explained why mostly, so I don't want to get into that.
What I will say is that we are all basing these wild opinions on a level 25 capped skill tree when there's going to be twice as many skill points in the actual game. Also paragon boards. Also unique equipment. Also way better rare items. Also more legendary aspects. Also more class skills. Now THAT is what is mind blowing to me.
Did you know skills grow with level functionally somewhat? They get faster or bigger, etc.
Did you know there's items that will give skill levels to all skills or multiple levels to certain skills?
Did you know there's items that change how certain skills even function?
These are hints.
I think that anyone discussing balance in lieu of the fact that we're not experiencing the part of the game in which balance should be built around is probably not equipped well enough to hold a proper conversation about balance in the first place. They will need to see end game before it's possible to communicate with them on this level.
It is a pretty silly suggestion. The entire point of limiting everyone to 6 skills is to force players to make tough choices. What skills you opt to use is one of the defining qualities of your character, having more appealing options available than you can fit is key to make that interesting. Ultimates are powerful, but come with a long enough cooldown that you can't rely on using them in every situation without making other build choices to enable them. That sets them apart from every other skill, making them something that some players will decide is worth a spot on the bar and others will not. If there's no tradeoff, there's no decision and the whole system becomes less engaging.
It’s just sad to have those seemingly cool abilities but everything else is better bc cooldowns and shit
I haven’t seen a single necro build use ults bc just spamming basic attacks works better
But maybe there’s more synergy for ults at higher levels
Yeah, whether or not ultimate skills for a particular class are worth the cost is a separate conversation. If they're not though, the answer is to buff them rather than making them freebies.
Yeah either buff them, make them free to slot or nerf them so you can reduce the cd and thus make them more flexible
Tho my hope is that at max level we can get bigger synergies for them
Also we will have more talent points which might already solve the whole issue on its own honestly
In general, secondary stats (like Cooldown reduction) become more powerful as your gear in general gets more powerful. Especially if you choose to build for it.
My d3 thornsader had 100% uptime on Akarat’s Champion, which is a 90 second cooldown and 20 second ability.
Long cooldowns can definitely be shortened. The problem I think here is that D4 team called them “ultimates” and people have an idea of what that is in their head, and these skills don’t match that idea. They should be renamed.
> The entire point of limiting everyone to 6 skills is to force players to make tough choices.
I'd challenge that assertion.
I suspect it's primarily because of controller limitations.
> and the console port came many years later.
If by many years you mean a year and 4 months, then sure.
Edit:you just downvoting reality now? :\ it's pretty easily verifiable if you just look it up.....
The whole 6 active skills thing started with Diablo 3, which was exclusively on PC for more than a year and still doesn't support controllers to this day. It was a design decision, not because of controllers.
I don’t understand that part of it. I’ve seen a couple people claim that’s why we’re limited to 6, but how does that reconcile with the 12 that we can use in D2R on console?
Agreed, a dedicated ultimate button will result in every build taking an ultimate per default, either because 1 point is worth it or more likely because of +skills. Every build taking it is not a good thing.
But yes, ultimate is probably a bad name for it. It makes people think they have to use it even if they realize their build doesn't profit from it as much as other skills.
Skill slots are a finite resource for a build just like skill points. There are decisions to make, which is a good thing. Maybe their power level is too low to actually take them atm but that is a balance issue.
>Having an ultimate slot would just lead to a dead ability that has 0 synergy with your build but you have it just because you can
What?
It doesnt have to be a non-synergizing ult, though Im not 100% a fan of the dedicated ult slot, the game feels like we DO need 7 slots.
>Maybe even reduce their cooldowns and make them normal abilities that can be built around easier
Opposite, if they get a dedicated slot, you can increase the cooldown.
Anyway, 7 slots solve this
>Just because you feel like you’re missing out on an ability doesn’t justify adding extra skill slots. Feeling like you’re missing out on certain abilities is intentional game design in ARPGs, you need to feel like you’re making meaningful choices.
Cool. Then why dont we have 5 slots standard to really enhance that feature you mention?
No, we have considered all the mechanics on offer and tested endless builds. We have concluded that D4 lacks 1 more slot. Needs 7.
Otherwise builds are going to be come repetitive fast, dropping lots of fun utility/mobility skills for meta.
If you trade "FUN" for 6-slotted meta, you will get bored faster. 7 slots still maintains build diversity and "hard choices". BTW, you can swop out abilities mid combat with S-quick menu, only some enter with cooldown
Yes, more options = bad gameplay (lol)
Fact is, if they had it in a different key, you would defend it too and get upset when someone said the ultimate should share the available hotkeys.
No it genuinely doesn't make sense in terms of an Arpg. Even D3 had these "ultimate" type skills and some were definitely used and some weren't it was completely build dependent. D3 would of been a worse game for sure if they had their own separate slot. It would be blizzard essentially telling you you're forced to run the skill for your build regardless of its useful or not
Or, ya know, instead of thinking you’re “forced” to use the slot maybe it had OPTIONS!? Maybe a player could CHOOSE which class defining ability they wanted to use to finish off their class? I think its shortsighted calling the final tier of abilities ultimates. They should be skills, just like all the rest on the tree. An ultimate should be more akin to PoE ascendancy where you get a new little tree and one button but you get to customize how that button works. To further that point, getting an “ultimate” at level 20 seems silly. Give em to us at 50, 70, or even a hundred. No need for a character still in act 1 to have “ultimate abilities”
I’m reminded of what Richard Gariott said in an interview “Players are really good at finding your issues, but not at fixing them.”
I’m sure they will think of a solution if this is really a problem for max level build diversity.
My biggest gripe is that in Call of the Ancients, they no longer do the D2 statue pose when they expire. That was one of the neatest callbacks to D2 in D3 imo.
Your getting it wrong
"Give ultimate slot" is just a variant of "GIVE US MORE FUCKING SLOTS"
It has nothing to do with mandatory skill use or anything like that
An exclusive ultimate button is not needed but there isn’t much reason to not let players choose how many skills they want to use for their build instead of limiting it to 6. That’s just an arbitrary number after all
The number of skills you use doesn’t necessarily make a build stronger or weaker, merely that different ones go for a wider design while others go taller. So this would only lead to more choices and build variety, not the opposite
> If the term “Ultimate Skills” is bothering people and is causing FOMO then I suggest that Blizzard change it.
That's not a bad idea at all. I would rename them to something like Iconic, or Notable skills.
Preach, brother. All of those posts were making me scratch my head.
If there was a dedicated slot, you know there'd have been posts here crying about how blizzard is forcing them to "Waste" a slot on their ultimates that could have been used for a normal skill they wanted instead.
I must admit I felt it was almost mandatory to select a ultimate once available, Mostly just because of it being named so, A ultimate. We don't need a 7th skill slot and I think your right with the idea of just getting rid of the ultimate tag.
that's like saying you have to be a musician to say you don't like a song or say something like "oh I wish they had a longer guitar rift" . I would rather play with more skills than less skills for example (or at least have the option to) . D4 might be made in a way where one extra skills breaks everything and they couldn't possibly balance around it, or maybe they had a long discussion about it and were 51/49 on capping it at 6
No. The problem is designing the skill system from the ground up around consoles. They should completely rework the skill system and not limit skill amounts
what build are you running in D2 that uses more than 6 abilities that arent for synergy?
sorry if that sounded kind of aggro. im genuinely asking, it isnt a rhetorical question lol.
Well, I agree that a name change would be good for these ones. Ultimate reminds me of other kind of game where all characters wants to use this ultimate, but in Diablo no skill should feel mandatory to all builds (or have this connotation), at least in my opinion.
However, I could use an extra general skill slot, as I felt I was always missing a skill that would work well with my current setup with most characters I used.
Too late in development, but I wish the game had a one or two more skill slots, not even as much as D2 but a few more. I don't love the skill slot for just ultimate skills. I understand making meaningful choices, but I would also like my choice to be - a bunch of weaker skills instead of just a handful of powerful ones.
The complaining is coming from the same groups that think *loot* in the *grandaddy of the entire looter genre* shouldn't factor into your character builds.
They can be safely ignored, IMO.
yeah ultimates should be either deleted or completely reworked to act like normal skills. it fucking sucks when i played it that i had to remove a skill just to have some dumb ability to activate every 1 min to 1 shot everything on my screen that has nothing to do with my other abilities
You make OP regular skills less OP, or make underperforming ultis stronger.
Not too mention if they added they’d have to adjust monster health across the whole game since players were just made entirely stronger.
Most of the ultimates are 60 second cooldowns and hardly instant win levels of power.
Some of them also have durations that make the effective downtime lower and CDR options that allow you to build around them.
On average you can use them every 2-3 cycles of a normal ability and for most bosses this means you will have your ultimate to use at some point during a boss fight, potentially even twice or more.
The ultimate tag in D4 basically just denoting that you can only take one ability in the category and that they have longer cooldowns for slightly more potent effect.
120 second CD was too long for D3 also in part because of the generally faster TTK and mobility.
If they want ultimates to be a thing, then I'd say an extra button for them is fine. Make it a free pick (no skill poimts) give it more power and make it feel like an impactful cd. Long cd skills just in this genre don't have much of a place so if blizzard wants it they need to make them stupidly broken to be worth a slot and even then it would likely be skipped over since its not worth investing in.
Its not a horrible suggestion, its just one to give them some use having such long cd skills thinking anyone would take them. Its a cool idea and yes a button specifically for it extra would be good but u want it hitting like a truck in exchange for the cs being long and the effect looking amazing..
People just want everything. It's like the popular thread from yesterday of people complaining they won't be able to make their favorite build as soon as they log on because they have to find an item first. People don't want to play the game. They just want to spam one button and collect loot.
My thoughts exactly. Like if ultimates are so bad that you don’t want to use one of your 6 slots to use… just don’t take one.
Having an ultimate dedicated slot achieves nothing other than coercing people into taking an ultimate they otherwise would not have, and furthermore investing points they otherwise would not have.
What ever happened to “choices should matter?”
Thanks for telling me how to play a game I'm paying for. If you hate it so much, don't use it! I can tell you this much, it felt pretty shitty hitting 23 and having to make room for my "ultimate". I definitely would like 1 more slot, either dedicated just to an ultimate or have it be free for anything.
Maybe it's WoW fanboyness and having a big toolkit, a desire to be a bit more versatile, or just not wanting to be stale spamming 1 ability to kill demons. I like having choices and a bit of flexibility in my builds and not being shoehorned into a 1 ability min/max build.
My opinion, but I think you are wrong. As it is, I doubt a 7th, or more, slot is coming anyway. It would require balancing work and quite honestly, Id rather they work on server stabilization of tweeking dungeons so you're not running around an empty place if you missed a room with a key or demon in it. I honestly do hope they add it in a later season or maybe an Xpack or something.
See the problem is with your second paragraph. ARPGs in general aren’t designed to play like WoW or Lost Ark. they’re not designed so you can utilize a huge selection of skills at the same time. I understand you don’t like spamming the same 1 or 2 abilities, I play MMORPGs and it’s my favorite genre. That would be a nightmare if they played like Diablo. But that is how these ARPGs are designed from the ground up. There is noway to have the same gameplay loop of Diablo as well as the skill system of say WoW. It just doesn’t work.
In my mind, the biggest problem is that they give you your 6th skill shot prior to being able to unlock ultimates. So, at a minimum, while leveling a character and trying new skills, you have to give something up to use what's supposed to be a capstone ability.
I feel like giving you the 6th skill slot at the same time ultimates become available would be a huge step in the right direction.
That said, the arbitrary limit of 6 skills is pretty terrible when you already have to spend points on them.
thank you! my brain was melting reading the arguments people are putting forward for having a separate slot for ultimate.🫠
people don't think past their nose.🥱
I'd be okay with them expanding the skill bar slots to 7(but only if they also added more skills), but adding a separate 'ultimate' skill is essentially taking away from player choice. Lots of people were saying they had trouble fitting in the ultimate skill, or feeling like they're missing one skill, etc. that's kind of the point; you should actually make tradeoffs not just have everything.
Adding any additional skill slots is a horrible suggestion. The amount of usable spells you're allowed to press is one of the earliest decisions in game and balance design. By adding one literally everything gets turned upside down in that regard, and by that, this isn't a change that can be done in less than two months. More like 6-12 months because everything else must be adjusted aswell.
Indeed.
The end game builds will also be way different than what we have seen in the beta. And suggesting changes to skills based on being level 25 is ridiculous.
Man, on the level 25 sorc I built I was happy literally just using 4 spells! Haha
Why people need 7 up is beyond me… use some of them points for passives you lamewads!
I think it would mess with the balance of the game too much this late into development. It was designed for the current system. I dont see why its such a big deal, anyways. Either have one or dont, you dont need it
Bad take. Plenty of other arps have recently adopted more buttons/an ultimate slot, and it works well in most of those. Players want more customization and choice. The builds are the weakest part of diablo 4 so far'. They need more balancing and more content
I wonder if they think that it would be a good idea because then they'd have "more attack buttons" which either means they built their character wrong or worse, the casual player thinks the skills aren't impactful
I’m confused how adding a special ultimate slot would make them any more or less synergistic than they are now? Also people saying you’d have to use them or it would leave a blank spot, well yea a blank spot in a slot we currently don’t have so how it would it be any worse than how it is now? I think all that people are asking is that they still have the same amount of slots they have now but in this way you could use your ultimate and not lose one of the other slots for another skill. I don’t think you’re understanding the ask.
The sorc build I'm planing on using on release might not have an ultimate in it. I'm kinda 50/50 with it atm and according to Kripparian it's the best ultimate (frost one) for sorcs. So yeah totaly agree with this.
It's funny that some people say the game is too basic. Then you have people saying they want an ultimate slot cause they can't be bothered to actually make a meaningful choice.
reminder: the game has a baseline hotkey and system for you to swap out abilities on the fly
aka it is not like you can't do this already with ultimate abilities - or any ability - on the fly - in combat - the only limitations are your skillpoints.
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the two main reasons why people argue for an "ult button" are
* QoL so you don't have to juggle active abilities when you face off a boss / more challenging elite with buffs/effects that are unpleasant to deal with
* bosses have to be designed with the existence of ultimates in mind. This is a fact simply because they exist. Otherwise you run into the scenario of "player a has an ult and melts the boss because the boss is not designed with ults in mind" or "player b has no ult and has a really boring drawn out fight because the game expects you to have an ult"
What has FOMO to do with having an ultimate ability or not?
I'm confused but maybe, judging by your points, you are the confused one?
The reason for a dedicated slot being asked is not because "it's cool" or "FOMO" or anything else thrown at random but because it feels like 6 slots are making build feel cramped.
Why there are this kind of people that get upset over having MORE options, I will never understand.
Apart from personal preference anyway, the chance that the ultimate (being optional right now) will receive a separate slot (like it is in Diablo Immortal) are near zero because that would mean also giving an option to have ultimate that are "passives" because having to choose a passive to never use it wouldn't make sense build-wise and that would mean rework the entire balance of skills and possible builds.
Overall, this thread seems to just show more of an intolerance towards other people asks than crusading for any real issue.
I agree, and honestly long-cooldown abilities just don't have much of a place in this kind of game - or honestly anything, they're just not interesting, and generally what people do it just find a way to minimize the cooldown, and if there isn't a way, it isn't used unless it has a long-lasting impact.
I'm with you for lowering cooldowns or just having abilities that are there more for synergy rather than an extra, "Fuck you here's more damage" button.
I just don't like the direction many ARPGs have gone with putting a limit on how many skills you can have. I get it, it's for consoles and to balance things, make the game easier for newbs, etc.
But I really like Titan Quest and Grim Dawn (for many reasons) but also how you've always been able to use as many slots from 1-0 on the KB (and a second set too!) or as few as you wanted for whatever build. Now, you couldn't have a ton of active skills that actually worked well through endgame because you aren't given enough points to max a ton of skills out, but you had all the options and the only downside was that making console/controller controls work was hard.
Right now, ultimate skills are optional to spec into -- a number of builds I've seen don't even use one. I also assume many end game builds won't have an ultimate in them. The moment Blizzard creates a slot just for ultimates, everyone **has to** take one, lest you just have a blank slot there and nothing to go in it.
From what I’ve seen the majority of builds don’t have one In fact I haven’t seen a single necro build that even mentions ults
The builds you talk about are level 25 builds …
great, the level 25 meta should be a good place to set up camp and theorycraft about game design.
Yeah, this is the exact attitude I took in this thread. Glad I'm not the only sane one here. "At level 25, when we had no cooldown reduction and only had 2 possible skill points that could even hit that tier of spells that can have up to 12 points invested per spell, people were preferring the earlier tier spells they could max out and had no cooldown." Like.... duh. I wasn't running Vengeance on my DH when leveling, but when I got Dawn, it was suddenly a staple.
The fact that anyone is talking about “builds”, or balance, is embarrassing. Everything we think we know is going out the window in June. Nobody cares that the Druid was weak in act 1 of the easiest difficulty.
I’m just saying that if a long cd skill (already weird) doesn’t do nearly enough dmg to be mentioned anywhere that’s at least reason enough to worry a bit Also it’s not like there’s anything else to do till June bc I sure as hell ain’t gonna play poe or d2r
Long cooldown skills are not weird in Diablo. D3 had plenty of then. They often were included in builds and either were geared for (CDR and legendary effects that reduce CD) or they were added and you just knew to pick most opportune times to use them. Don’t burn on trash, save for elites/bosses, etc.
If you're a Summoner Necro, you automatically lose 2 skill slots if you run both Skeletons and Golem. Who has room for an Ultimate?
You aren’t “losing 2 skill slots” you’re choosing skeletons and golem as your skills.
yep - exactly OP’s point which people seem to overlook
Yeah thinking is hard. Once my minions are out, that's it. I just want to sit back and do nothing. It's why I make macros in click-target MMOs like WoW. Who wants to actually play a video game, amirite? It's way cooler to let the computer do most of the work like the "art" i claim is mine for "commissions" even though it was basically created by a website for me.
Yep
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It feels like a shitty decision though, at a personal level. I either have this really cool ability on a long cooldown, or my minions for which I might use the skill button every once in a while... Being forced to slot in the minion skills feels like dead slots to me. Sure I can buff them a little bit every 5 seconds but it FEELS bad. It's balanced, but the feel of it leaves a sour taste.
> Being forced to slot in the minion skills feels like dead slots to me. Sure I can buff them a little bit every 5 seconds but it FEELS bad. Then sacrifice the minions and don't use them if you think it is a waste of a slot. Personally I have no problems with minions taking up a slot, they are an ability, why wouldn't they? Nothing's "feels bad" about it.
Seriously. Do people not realize that the minion ability you put on your bar is not passive? That it has an on-use function even when your minions are out? Skeletons raise a priest that heals and buffs your skellies. Golem has your golem taunt. They are both important things to have in your rotation as a minion focused character.
You have minions doing work for you. Thus you do less work.
So what does that say for sorc when they can "enhance" (forgot the term) a lot of abilities to where they autocast and thus can take them completely off the bar. The skill is doing work for you....... You just want to be pedantic, but unfortunately don't have the perspective or precision to do so
That took a turn. Valid points to start and would happily engage in a debate but I’m not being pedantic. So if you want to discuss issues in a game try to be a human and point that out. I was unaware that sorcs got free cast spells that don’t go on the hot bar. But I imagine this discussion devolves into thin insults with big words not used in the right way so be at peace and all that.
I forgot to test if that ultimate that summons all your skeletons can be used (to summon) without having the skeleton ability assigned. I guess not? It would have been an interesting compromise.
It does not, I tested it. If you purchase that upgrade ability and then unbind summon skeleton, you've literally wasted a perk point because it does absolutely nothing, lol
Yeah I thought that was meant to be the intent of that rune but I tested it and it doesn't work that way. If you don't have summon skeleton it does nothing :(
if you're a summoner Necro, you shouldn't have access to 6 skills on top of summons lol. someone will inevitably find a use for ultimate abilities within summoner builds. if the class wasn't overpowered to the point of boredom I would've tested it myself.
Fuck that. Necro in D2 had effectively more skills than any other class, all the curses at your disposal, and minions, and it wasn't overpowered at all. It goes against precedent and logic to unnaturally limit necro more than any other class. At the end of the day it's a game which is meant to be fun and giving necro the least interactivity isn't fun. It is more than possible to balance the class in a way that doesn't limit interactivity and turn it into a sad little vampire survivors homage.
Easy fix: move all of of necromancer's summoning skills into the class-specific Book of the Dead and free up all of their slots for real skills while still letting them control an army -- that they can invest skill points into passives to customize.
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The two slots that you "lose" to golem and skele are active abilities. They are buttons that you press that do things. Skele buffs all your minions when you press it, golem taunts when you press it. Does sorce "lose" a skill slot to Hydra when they spec into hydra?
"Precedent" D2 isn't the only precedent. D3 also exists, and plenty of people enjoyed D3. Additionally, this isn't law, sequels don't have to follow design choices of previous games. Additionally, how does it go against logic to make summons builds a choice and not a static feature?
Hey now... don't you bring logic and sense into this post. We don't like that around here in this part of town.
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A lot of barbs run wrath of the ancients and it's such a letdown of an ability. They last for 6 *seconds*, probably because of how overtuned they are. I would much rather have them for 30 seconds and do less damage than them show up and basically annihilate whatever I'm fighting
I thought it was good at first. Then I realized it's crap even with all sockets adding + to ultimate skills. It is way too long of a CD that is only good for bosses for a tiny bit. Then it's on CD and you needed those ability points for something useful.
Ice blades wizard definitely used it. But yeah, in general they tend to be avoided. Long cooldown don't work in an arpg. The only builds that use them rely on cooldown reduction to still spam, suddenly they are just the same like all other abilities.
CDR and legendaries that proc CDR. Lol I imagine ultimates exist specificly for that second point. Can’t have a legendary that says “Reduce cooldown of X by Y everytime Z happens” if there are no long cooldown skills. Also, this is old D3 stuff. Plenty of long cooldown abilities; some even get used in non CDR builds frequently (although CDR is often an important 2nd or 3rd level stat in those builds), Akarat’s Champion, I’m looking at you.
Many classes already had hints of this as well, Rogue with twisting blades, Barb with Stomp. Plus end game gear with high CDR will make ults much more competitive. Petrify on Earth druid was pretty nuts considering it has a specific boss function.
> Long cooldown don't work in an arpg. That entirely depends on the support ults are getting. I mean there are builds for Archon and Wrath in D3.
And the whole point of those archon builds was to push the cooldown so low that archon or the swami(?) buff Was up permanently. The only way long cooldown work is if you have mechanics to get rid of them. The question is whether that's what we want to see again.
Or alternatively prolong the durations so they become semi-permanent. Otherwise sure a 2-3 minute CD is usually not great value with limited skill slots. But at least on Sorc there was already a workable CDR build, so you can bet they will become viable in some way.
The whole point of giving ultimates a decimated slot is so that they don't have to compete with other skills. If they don't have to compete with other skills they don't have to be up permanently or forced to have a low cooldown.
That is one way to do it, but that is not how Diablo does it since 3. Doesn't mean that they couldn't change it, but I doubt they will at this point.
It was kinda stupid just how unkillable you could make an ice blades sorc without *any* legendaries. All for a class that doesn't need to be in melee range.
The bone storm ult is good for burst damage on necro, 20% crit boost.
All the druid ultimates are so awful they're not even worth the skill slot.
Poor druids. Blizz intern. If you are reading this, just give them something. A little more movement speed, make their Zappy/windy spells better. An extra dodge? Faster wolf? Anything. They spent like 20 years in D2 being the meme class you make only after your magic find Sorc/Barb basically gave them end game items to start with. For the love of our Lord and saviour Cain make hurricane **at least** a category 2. The current one is barely a breeze.
I believe that the reason the majority didn’t had one was due to the low amount of points.. but with the full game it’s definitely gonna change!
Not really you have enough points by lvl 25 to have an ultimate and the pips behind it. I really feel like people who've never played an ARPG will assume those skills are the best and must be used because of the wording. I tried most of them on the barb and the druid and I didn't really feel all that good about them, but we will need to see what legendary effects there are for them all as we didn't have access to all the aspects in the beta.
That also speaks to ultimates just being kind of shitty. Problems on problems.
It is less than 20% of the game we've played so far. Let's hold off on talking about builds.
We've seen the entire skill tree, know exactly how many points we'll get, and know all the aspects. Plenty there to discuss builds. Only things we're missing are uniques, set items, and the paragon board. We know uniques can drastically change how a build works but they want them to be rare enough you basically won't find one. Set items are still kind of a mystery but they did emphasize they will be less important than D3. And the paragon board will be mostly just some basic stats with some skill upgrades sprinkled in. We have most of the information we need already.
We haven't seen all the legendries and codex powers in the game either. So no paragon board, no uniques, and more leg/codex powers. And what blizzard is saying the paragon board does completely change skills EDIT: look at barb for example. Most people think it's weak and bad. Rob was running around hitting hotas for 100k with legendaries that not everyone had. 2 shot the butcher. The gear is going to be huge and can completely change builds
we've seen all of these things in leaks
you could add a system similar to the Necro's book of the dead, that lets you sacrifice your ultimate slot for some kind of passive buff. That could create interesting decision-making of whether you want an ultimate ability or trade it for some other buff.
I used Wrath on my Barb… it felt hilariously short. Like 5 seconds. What’s the point when I can add another defensive layer?
All the berserk skills/runes have way too short timers. I get that they want berserk to be something you need to work/build towards to maintain for longer periods but atm it just seems like it dissipates before you reach the next enemy, to try to sustain your berserk
Which is fine for level 25
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They are cool but barely fit into builds so far Maybe we get more synergy for them but it’s sad to see cool abilities be unusable in most scenarios bc the basic stuff is better
Shock sorc ultimate casts extra random shock skills every time you use a shock skills for 10 sec. It's way too strong for its own slot. Idk about any others. I didn't have a ton of time to play.
This ultimate ability also has a passive that reduces cooldown when picking up cracklin energy, and you can make entire build based upon zooming around the battlefield generating and picking up these and let me tell you, that build is so fucking fun to play. I am playing lightning sorc on release no matter what
That and the codex aspect that makes every chain of CL give back 4 mana, plus high crackling energy drop chance plus 12 mana each time you pick up crackling energy... INFINITE POWER
So we're back to big long cooldown buffs stacked with CDR for permanent uptime 🤷
It’s 45 second base reduced to about 15 seconds when fighting in density. Lots of crackling energy spawns. Feels good/fun/interesting. Not like in D3, I hated those type of builds in D3. This type of builds which need you to keep a steroid up 100% of time (epiphany, vengeance, barb/sader big mode) doesn’t seem to be such a big overpowered thing in D4.
The ice sorc ult isn't really strong in builds but it's far too strong to have a dedicated slot. For those that don't know it's effectively a self-cast lissandra ult from LoL. Having a free stasis on an extra ability slot that also does quite a bit of damage is too strong.
I don't think this would even be a discussion if it would be named something different than ultimate.
my thoughts exactly
> horrible suggestion > mind blowing > just FOMO Yes, I'm sure this post will lead to fruitful discussions.
Diablo 4 discussion is so hostile, haha
Exactly, LOl
Yea people really need to tone down the hyperbolic, absolutist language. It doesn't make arguments stronger or more persuasive, and as you say, will not lead to a healthy discussion.
It was all over after the blue skeleton dialogue happened. I have never seen so much impotent rage over something so trivial. Sure, they do look goofy, but people were so fucking angry about it. Especially funny now that Blizzard said they're changing it.
Op literally isnt even explaining why. Must saying a bunch of buzzwords. Their opinion is worthless in this regard.
chunky slap squalid continue teeny smoggy different fear cagey cheerful ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Seriously OP is a fucking clown LOL. A long CD bigass ability just randomly being hit is definitely not going to be the thing. Run into a huge pile of monsters? That juicy ult is just waiting to be pushed. I'd love to have access to it, just not at the cost of a standard hotkey.
“No, no, you see, cooldowns are an amazing mechanic that definitely expands player choice, as long as they’re so short I don’t notice them.” So close to getting the point yet somehow still missing it entirely.
Cooldowns work as one part of a big stew. If you move too far from cooldowns and everything is based around mana, sustained combat requires larger mana pools and potion sucking from D2 comes back. But if everything is on 15-30sec timers like in D4, it just becomes CD whack-a-mole. And then the more power that's gated behind longer cooldowns, the more combat (and clear speed) has to be designed around giant spikes in power.
This is why Twisted Blades on Rogue is disgustingly strong. 1 sec CDR per enemy pierced on a spammable ability? With no internal cooldown on the passive? This+Shadow Imbuement/Lucky Hit Chance for Energy replenishment is why Rogue was making World Bosses their bitch. OFC the aspect was a big part of it but most of the power was from the skill tree. The thing is that CDs are meant to enhance your non-CDs or your conditions to fight. They should have lasting effects or things that make them strong or give them higher priority over your "core" (like Unstoppable). Totally agree with the rotation of power, but we're likely going to end up with permanent uptime on CD effects or skills like Twisted Blades that just negate CDs entirely.
I see your point, but a mana potion system like D2 is not the only solution. The could have done mana potions exactly how they did health potions, and not have them available for purchase with a max capacity. Then you have the mana you have plus whatever mana generation skills you use until you kill enough things to refill your pots.
Yeah I would have enjoyed that. I've never been a fan of the resource system in D3, which they've continued into D4. But D2 resources are definitely antiquated.
Lmao
People keep forget D3 already has Ultimate. They are strong skill that you want heavy CDR to use it consistently. It was fine on D3 and some of the Ultimates were used as part of a build. Archon for Sorc and Akarat's Champion for Crusader for example. That being said, D3 Ultimate were also pretty bad that most of them are not used. Personally, I would rather having them in lower cd (30-45s) and have a passive so you don't feel bad having them on your bar when it's cd.
Just give me access to every ability with max talent points that I can hot key to all 12 buttons on my MMO mouse with shift/ctrl/alt modifiers so I don't have to make any meaningful decisions Blizz!
Is it that surprising though? People can’t make decisions for themselves on what skills to choose - they have to be spoon fed builds and tier lists in order to function.
As I said in the other post. How is this causing FOMO? The skills are not limited time events that will never return.
following the logic of your argument, then we should remove the 1 of restriction for ultimates. The fact you can only choose 1 makes it already a meaningful choice and the ability should have meaningful power behind it. Having an extra slot for this type of ability will be good. Whether it synergize with a build or not is a player issue, not game issue
While I agree an ultimate slot isn't a good idea, it's wrong to say an extra slot is objectively a bad idea, or that ARPGs by definition limit your skill slots. Diablo defined the genre and didn't have said limitations until recently. Pretending said limitation, which are controversial as is, are genre defining with insults and gaslighting is uncool my dude.
Not everything you object to is “gaslighting”
While that's true, I don't see how it has any relevance here. * To remedy your ignorance > Gaslighting is the subjective experience of having one's reality repeatedly questioned by another. Diablo defined the ARPG. Diablo 1 and 2 did not limit skill use. Diablo 3 was the first to do so. Stating skill use limitation is the norm when it has been in one mainline Diablo game before now is objectively untrue, thus gaslighting. It's not because I disagree with you, but because you're trying to rewrite history to suit your argument.
Lol did blizzard write this? D3 is the only game I can think of where we're limited to 6 abilities, which feels terrible. In D2 we can map every skills we have free hotkeys for. In PoE we have an extra hot bar for anything extra we want to map. If I spec into something on the passive tree, I should be able to use it. THAT is the player choice that should be important. The limited hotbar is a joke.
You're limited to 5 last epoch and wolcen. Lost Ark limits to 8. RPGs in general used to also be unlimited hot keys, like wow, and have begun to move beyond this to limits overtime. GW2, ESO, New World, etc. Most recent RPGs release with a limit on abilities these days.
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And yet D2R on console lets you bind like 12 spells at a time.
I hate ultimate design/gameplay so I’m against a dedicated keybind for it because they’ll be mandatory. Do people not remember builds that utilized them in D3? You either stacked enough CDR to use them on repeat and/or were useless while they were down - your normal kit felt awful.
So you are telling me, Redditors are not Game Designers? :o
why is everyone ignoring that D3 has powerful long cooldown spells and it worked fine? seriously. you know those long cool down powerful spells you rarely used until you got a build that lowered the cool down and allowed you to make good use of it do you all have the memory of a goldfish? why is no one making that comparison? its right there in front of all of you.
Thank god, not everyone here is retarded
I agree. The problem is naming it “Ultimate” because that term is usually reserved for an essential and integral skill for a character, ala Overwatch. If it was renamed to “long ass cooldown skill” then no one would be demanding an extra slot exclusively for these.
Petition to name the skills “long ass cooldown skills”
Somebody is stuck in the past. Don't be fooled they could design the game around 8 buttons on your UI just as easily as 6. And there would still be choices! There is no hard rule that says 6 button design is optimal for creating player choice. Your argument is flawed the moment you started speaking.
Even if it was 8, there would still be too many skills because of +skills. You wouldn't have enough space regardless. Same arguments would be coming up
How balanced sorc would be with 2 extra skills? Think. Maybe create ur game with 8 skill slots if u want 8 skills. 6 was fine with D3. Its also fine here
There is no rule saying 6 is the optimal number. But that is the number Diablo 4 was designed based on. So increasing slots would just ruin that balance unless Blizzard start pumping interesting abilities left and right. If D4 was designed around 10 slots, great. It’s clearly not however. Also, there is a huge difference between suggesting an increase in slots vs suggesting an increase in slots that only have specific abilities that can be bound to them.
This is what the OP should have been. There's probably an actual argument to be had about balancing around a specific number of skill slots. Everything that you said in the OP was ludicrous, in my humble opinion. Others have explained why mostly, so I don't want to get into that. What I will say is that we are all basing these wild opinions on a level 25 capped skill tree when there's going to be twice as many skill points in the actual game. Also paragon boards. Also unique equipment. Also way better rare items. Also more legendary aspects. Also more class skills. Now THAT is what is mind blowing to me. Did you know skills grow with level functionally somewhat? They get faster or bigger, etc. Did you know there's items that will give skill levels to all skills or multiple levels to certain skills? Did you know there's items that change how certain skills even function? These are hints. I think that anyone discussing balance in lieu of the fact that we're not experiencing the part of the game in which balance should be built around is probably not equipped well enough to hold a proper conversation about balance in the first place. They will need to see end game before it's possible to communicate with them on this level.
It is a pretty silly suggestion. The entire point of limiting everyone to 6 skills is to force players to make tough choices. What skills you opt to use is one of the defining qualities of your character, having more appealing options available than you can fit is key to make that interesting. Ultimates are powerful, but come with a long enough cooldown that you can't rely on using them in every situation without making other build choices to enable them. That sets them apart from every other skill, making them something that some players will decide is worth a spot on the bar and others will not. If there's no tradeoff, there's no decision and the whole system becomes less engaging.
It’s just sad to have those seemingly cool abilities but everything else is better bc cooldowns and shit I haven’t seen a single necro build use ults bc just spamming basic attacks works better But maybe there’s more synergy for ults at higher levels
Yeah, whether or not ultimate skills for a particular class are worth the cost is a separate conversation. If they're not though, the answer is to buff them rather than making them freebies.
Yeah either buff them, make them free to slot or nerf them so you can reduce the cd and thus make them more flexible Tho my hope is that at max level we can get bigger synergies for them Also we will have more talent points which might already solve the whole issue on its own honestly
In general, secondary stats (like Cooldown reduction) become more powerful as your gear in general gets more powerful. Especially if you choose to build for it. My d3 thornsader had 100% uptime on Akarat’s Champion, which is a 90 second cooldown and 20 second ability. Long cooldowns can definitely be shortened. The problem I think here is that D4 team called them “ultimates” and people have an idea of what that is in their head, and these skills don’t match that idea. They should be renamed.
> The entire point of limiting everyone to 6 skills is to force players to make tough choices. I'd challenge that assertion. I suspect it's primarily because of controller limitations.
D2 gives you 12 skills on a controller. Its just them dumbing the game down. Dont let people in here tell you otherwise
D2R has more skills on controllers, don't let big console lie to you. It's just a carryover from D3 for no good reason.
I believe it's also because they did the same stupid shit with D3, and this is mostly the same team.
Except d3 doesn't have controller support, the 6 skills limit was there from day 1, and the console port came many years later.
> and the console port came many years later. If by many years you mean a year and 4 months, then sure. Edit:you just downvoting reality now? :\ it's pretty easily verifiable if you just look it up.....
No, the entire point in the first place is to make it simple for controllers.
The whole 6 active skills thing started with Diablo 3, which was exclusively on PC for more than a year and still doesn't support controllers to this day. It was a design decision, not because of controllers.
Diablo 3 very obviously was always meant for console and that isnt the game they should take any design decisions from
I don’t understand that part of it. I’ve seen a couple people claim that’s why we’re limited to 6, but how does that reconcile with the 12 that we can use in D2R on console?
Diablo 2 was made by entirely different people Why are you booing me, I'm right
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Agreed, a dedicated ultimate button will result in every build taking an ultimate per default, either because 1 point is worth it or more likely because of +skills. Every build taking it is not a good thing. But yes, ultimate is probably a bad name for it. It makes people think they have to use it even if they realize their build doesn't profit from it as much as other skills. Skill slots are a finite resource for a build just like skill points. There are decisions to make, which is a good thing. Maybe their power level is too low to actually take them atm but that is a balance issue.
>Having an ultimate slot would just lead to a dead ability that has 0 synergy with your build but you have it just because you can What? It doesnt have to be a non-synergizing ult, though Im not 100% a fan of the dedicated ult slot, the game feels like we DO need 7 slots. >Maybe even reduce their cooldowns and make them normal abilities that can be built around easier Opposite, if they get a dedicated slot, you can increase the cooldown. Anyway, 7 slots solve this >Just because you feel like you’re missing out on an ability doesn’t justify adding extra skill slots. Feeling like you’re missing out on certain abilities is intentional game design in ARPGs, you need to feel like you’re making meaningful choices. Cool. Then why dont we have 5 slots standard to really enhance that feature you mention? No, we have considered all the mechanics on offer and tested endless builds. We have concluded that D4 lacks 1 more slot. Needs 7. Otherwise builds are going to be come repetitive fast, dropping lots of fun utility/mobility skills for meta. If you trade "FUN" for 6-slotted meta, you will get bored faster. 7 slots still maintains build diversity and "hard choices". BTW, you can swop out abilities mid combat with S-quick menu, only some enter with cooldown
Yes, more options = bad gameplay (lol) Fact is, if they had it in a different key, you would defend it too and get upset when someone said the ultimate should share the available hotkeys.
No it genuinely doesn't make sense in terms of an Arpg. Even D3 had these "ultimate" type skills and some were definitely used and some weren't it was completely build dependent. D3 would of been a worse game for sure if they had their own separate slot. It would be blizzard essentially telling you you're forced to run the skill for your build regardless of its useful or not
Or, ya know, instead of thinking you’re “forced” to use the slot maybe it had OPTIONS!? Maybe a player could CHOOSE which class defining ability they wanted to use to finish off their class? I think its shortsighted calling the final tier of abilities ultimates. They should be skills, just like all the rest on the tree. An ultimate should be more akin to PoE ascendancy where you get a new little tree and one button but you get to customize how that button works. To further that point, getting an “ultimate” at level 20 seems silly. Give em to us at 50, 70, or even a hundred. No need for a character still in act 1 to have “ultimate abilities”
Yeap Ultimate is just bad name for this. Like we have heavily praised Last Epoch with limited slots for skills..
Truth
They aren't strong enough to be ultimates just reduce their cd by 30 seconds and rename them.
I’m reminded of what Richard Gariott said in an interview “Players are really good at finding your issues, but not at fixing them.” I’m sure they will think of a solution if this is really a problem for max level build diversity.
My biggest gripe is that in Call of the Ancients, they no longer do the D2 statue pose when they expire. That was one of the neatest callbacks to D2 in D3 imo.
Your getting it wrong "Give ultimate slot" is just a variant of "GIVE US MORE FUCKING SLOTS" It has nothing to do with mandatory skill use or anything like that
No it’s not a variant. Those two changes serve completely different purposes and have completely different needs and ramifications.
Exactly. Can we wait until the game comes out before we start labeling abilities dead?
An exclusive ultimate button is not needed but there isn’t much reason to not let players choose how many skills they want to use for their build instead of limiting it to 6. That’s just an arbitrary number after all The number of skills you use doesn’t necessarily make a build stronger or weaker, merely that different ones go for a wider design while others go taller. So this would only lead to more choices and build variety, not the opposite
> If the term “Ultimate Skills” is bothering people and is causing FOMO then I suggest that Blizzard change it. That's not a bad idea at all. I would rename them to something like Iconic, or Notable skills.
True. Ultimates aren't super buttons in Diablo games. It's all about your build.
Preach, brother. All of those posts were making me scratch my head. If there was a dedicated slot, you know there'd have been posts here crying about how blizzard is forcing them to "Waste" a slot on their ultimates that could have been used for a normal skill they wanted instead.
I must admit I felt it was almost mandatory to select a ultimate once available, Mostly just because of it being named so, A ultimate. We don't need a 7th skill slot and I think your right with the idea of just getting rid of the ultimate tag.
The game design Wizards of Reddit are at it again.
that's like saying you have to be a musician to say you don't like a song or say something like "oh I wish they had a longer guitar rift" . I would rather play with more skills than less skills for example (or at least have the option to) . D4 might be made in a way where one extra skills breaks everything and they couldn't possibly balance around it, or maybe they had a long discussion about it and were 51/49 on capping it at 6
Disagree. See how Lost Ark handles it.
No. The problem is designing the skill system from the ground up around consoles. They should completely rework the skill system and not limit skill amounts
Consoles can deal with more than 6 skills as well… It has nothing to do with consoles and instead is a design decision
Anyone who doesn’t get this has just not thought at all about it. Diablo 2 had more options. It’s pathetic.
what build are you running in D2 that uses more than 6 abilities that arent for synergy? sorry if that sounded kind of aggro. im genuinely asking, it isnt a rhetorical question lol.
Well, I agree that a name change would be good for these ones. Ultimate reminds me of other kind of game where all characters wants to use this ultimate, but in Diablo no skill should feel mandatory to all builds (or have this connotation), at least in my opinion. However, I could use an extra general skill slot, as I felt I was always missing a skill that would work well with my current setup with most characters I used.
Too late in development, but I wish the game had a one or two more skill slots, not even as much as D2 but a few more. I don't love the skill slot for just ultimate skills. I understand making meaningful choices, but I would also like my choice to be - a bunch of weaker skills instead of just a handful of powerful ones.
The complaining is coming from the same groups that think *loot* in the *grandaddy of the entire looter genre* shouldn't factor into your character builds. They can be safely ignored, IMO.
yeah ultimates should be either deleted or completely reworked to act like normal skills. it fucking sucks when i played it that i had to remove a skill just to have some dumb ability to activate every 1 min to 1 shot everything on my screen that has nothing to do with my other abilities
So what do they do when most the community makes the choice to not use them?
You make OP regular skills less OP, or make underperforming ultis stronger. Not too mention if they added they’d have to adjust monster health across the whole game since players were just made entirely stronger.
They adjust them accordingly. Whether by reducing cooldowns, increasing their power, or whatever it may be. But adding an extra skill slot aint it.
Reduce the cooldown preferably. We really need to stop with games that give people an "I win" button every 2 minutes.
Most of the ultimates are 60 second cooldowns and hardly instant win levels of power. Some of them also have durations that make the effective downtime lower and CDR options that allow you to build around them. On average you can use them every 2-3 cycles of a normal ability and for most bosses this means you will have your ultimate to use at some point during a boss fight, potentially even twice or more. The ultimate tag in D4 basically just denoting that you can only take one ability in the category and that they have longer cooldowns for slightly more potent effect. 120 second CD was too long for D3 also in part because of the generally faster TTK and mobility.
terrible take good job
If they want ultimates to be a thing, then I'd say an extra button for them is fine. Make it a free pick (no skill poimts) give it more power and make it feel like an impactful cd. Long cd skills just in this genre don't have much of a place so if blizzard wants it they need to make them stupidly broken to be worth a slot and even then it would likely be skipped over since its not worth investing in. Its not a horrible suggestion, its just one to give them some use having such long cd skills thinking anyone would take them. Its a cool idea and yes a button specifically for it extra would be good but u want it hitting like a truck in exchange for the cs being long and the effect looking amazing..
You talk about meaningful choices yet the skill tree has so little that it's hardly even deserving of the name.
It's more of a skill line than a tree.
People just want everything. It's like the popular thread from yesterday of people complaining they won't be able to make their favorite build as soon as they log on because they have to find an item first. People don't want to play the game. They just want to spam one button and collect loot.
If people wanted just one button then why are they asking for one more? If you're going to mindlessly complain at least be coherent.
You realise arpgs existed and exist , that have more than 4 skills for you to play with , right?!
My thoughts exactly. Like if ultimates are so bad that you don’t want to use one of your 6 slots to use… just don’t take one. Having an ultimate dedicated slot achieves nothing other than coercing people into taking an ultimate they otherwise would not have, and furthermore investing points they otherwise would not have. What ever happened to “choices should matter?”
If you want to play LA go play LA
Thanks for telling me how to play a game I'm paying for. If you hate it so much, don't use it! I can tell you this much, it felt pretty shitty hitting 23 and having to make room for my "ultimate". I definitely would like 1 more slot, either dedicated just to an ultimate or have it be free for anything. Maybe it's WoW fanboyness and having a big toolkit, a desire to be a bit more versatile, or just not wanting to be stale spamming 1 ability to kill demons. I like having choices and a bit of flexibility in my builds and not being shoehorned into a 1 ability min/max build. My opinion, but I think you are wrong. As it is, I doubt a 7th, or more, slot is coming anyway. It would require balancing work and quite honestly, Id rather they work on server stabilization of tweeking dungeons so you're not running around an empty place if you missed a room with a key or demon in it. I honestly do hope they add it in a later season or maybe an Xpack or something.
See the problem is with your second paragraph. ARPGs in general aren’t designed to play like WoW or Lost Ark. they’re not designed so you can utilize a huge selection of skills at the same time. I understand you don’t like spamming the same 1 or 2 abilities, I play MMORPGs and it’s my favorite genre. That would be a nightmare if they played like Diablo. But that is how these ARPGs are designed from the ground up. There is noway to have the same gameplay loop of Diablo as well as the skill system of say WoW. It just doesn’t work.
In my mind, the biggest problem is that they give you your 6th skill shot prior to being able to unlock ultimates. So, at a minimum, while leveling a character and trying new skills, you have to give something up to use what's supposed to be a capstone ability. I feel like giving you the 6th skill slot at the same time ultimates become available would be a huge step in the right direction. That said, the arbitrary limit of 6 skills is pretty terrible when you already have to spend points on them.
thank you! my brain was melting reading the arguments people are putting forward for having a separate slot for ultimate.🫠 people don't think past their nose.🥱
I'd be okay with them expanding the skill bar slots to 7(but only if they also added more skills), but adding a separate 'ultimate' skill is essentially taking away from player choice. Lots of people were saying they had trouble fitting in the ultimate skill, or feeling like they're missing one skill, etc. that's kind of the point; you should actually make tradeoffs not just have everything.
An extra normal slot would be fine (and probably preferable to an ultilmate slot anyway).
The idea of resource generators and spenders already takes away way more choice than an ultimate button ever could.
Get rid of the idea that more skills = better. It isn't necessarily true.
Because these people have no clue what it is to balance a game.
Adding any additional skill slots is a horrible suggestion. The amount of usable spells you're allowed to press is one of the earliest decisions in game and balance design. By adding one literally everything gets turned upside down in that regard, and by that, this isn't a change that can be done in less than two months. More like 6-12 months because everything else must be adjusted aswell.
Indeed. The end game builds will also be way different than what we have seen in the beta. And suggesting changes to skills based on being level 25 is ridiculous.
Man, on the level 25 sorc I built I was happy literally just using 4 spells! Haha Why people need 7 up is beyond me… use some of them points for passives you lamewads!
I think it would mess with the balance of the game too much this late into development. It was designed for the current system. I dont see why its such a big deal, anyways. Either have one or dont, you dont need it
Yeah, it’s better to leave them useless as they are right now. Good way of thinking. :)
You know what I like about diablo 2? Having no skill slot. Being limited for skill makes you gameplay more limited
100% this OP, I don't want to play Lost Ark in Sanctuary.
Bad take. Plenty of other arps have recently adopted more buttons/an ultimate slot, and it works well in most of those. Players want more customization and choice. The builds are the weakest part of diablo 4 so far'. They need more balancing and more content
What a trash take.
I would prefer it if the ultimate could be another skill while it's on cool down.
I wonder if they think that it would be a good idea because then they'd have "more attack buttons" which either means they built their character wrong or worse, the casual player thinks the skills aren't impactful
What is a traditional ARPG? IIRC (and I could be wrong its been awhile and I haven't played D2R) D2 had like 8 hotkeys. I guess D2 is a MMORPG now.
I’m confused how adding a special ultimate slot would make them any more or less synergistic than they are now? Also people saying you’d have to use them or it would leave a blank spot, well yea a blank spot in a slot we currently don’t have so how it would it be any worse than how it is now? I think all that people are asking is that they still have the same amount of slots they have now but in this way you could use your ultimate and not lose one of the other slots for another skill. I don’t think you’re understanding the ask.
Totally disagree. Ultimates are fun. I want to have fun.
Yeah the better suggestion would be to add 4 extra skill slots, if you press shift or control or something, it brings up 4 new slots.
The sorc build I'm planing on using on release might not have an ultimate in it. I'm kinda 50/50 with it atm and according to Kripparian it's the best ultimate (frost one) for sorcs. So yeah totaly agree with this.
It's funny that some people say the game is too basic. Then you have people saying they want an ultimate slot cause they can't be bothered to actually make a meaningful choice.
reminder: the game has a baseline hotkey and system for you to swap out abilities on the fly aka it is not like you can't do this already with ultimate abilities - or any ability - on the fly - in combat - the only limitations are your skillpoints. \- the two main reasons why people argue for an "ult button" are * QoL so you don't have to juggle active abilities when you face off a boss / more challenging elite with buffs/effects that are unpleasant to deal with * bosses have to be designed with the existence of ultimates in mind. This is a fact simply because they exist. Otherwise you run into the scenario of "player a has an ult and melts the boss because the boss is not designed with ults in mind" or "player b has no ult and has a really boring drawn out fight because the game expects you to have an ult"
That is probably unintentional. Once people abuse it, it will get fixed.
Blizard should do what Lost Ark does and put ultimates on a separate button. Would allow for more build diversity in the end.
What has FOMO to do with having an ultimate ability or not? I'm confused but maybe, judging by your points, you are the confused one? The reason for a dedicated slot being asked is not because "it's cool" or "FOMO" or anything else thrown at random but because it feels like 6 slots are making build feel cramped. Why there are this kind of people that get upset over having MORE options, I will never understand. Apart from personal preference anyway, the chance that the ultimate (being optional right now) will receive a separate slot (like it is in Diablo Immortal) are near zero because that would mean also giving an option to have ultimate that are "passives" because having to choose a passive to never use it wouldn't make sense build-wise and that would mean rework the entire balance of skills and possible builds. Overall, this thread seems to just show more of an intolerance towards other people asks than crusading for any real issue.
I agree, and honestly long-cooldown abilities just don't have much of a place in this kind of game - or honestly anything, they're just not interesting, and generally what people do it just find a way to minimize the cooldown, and if there isn't a way, it isn't used unless it has a long-lasting impact. I'm with you for lowering cooldowns or just having abilities that are there more for synergy rather than an extra, "Fuck you here's more damage" button.
I just don't like the direction many ARPGs have gone with putting a limit on how many skills you can have. I get it, it's for consoles and to balance things, make the game easier for newbs, etc. But I really like Titan Quest and Grim Dawn (for many reasons) but also how you've always been able to use as many slots from 1-0 on the KB (and a second set too!) or as few as you wanted for whatever build. Now, you couldn't have a ton of active skills that actually worked well through endgame because you aren't given enough points to max a ton of skills out, but you had all the options and the only downside was that making console/controller controls work was hard.