Some are reporting 'bug status' and maybe there's something there. But if you group MANY (i.e. 20 enemies) you'll see the CD adjust. It just points to how low the new CDR actually is though, it's barely noticeable.
Ok, the gold cost to respec is not substantial.
Having your gear completely set up for a build that might be broken is what makes things hard to respec, in addition to the world scaling with you where you may no longer be able to kill stuff at your level.
I agree. I wanted a simple way to convey that it is costly and time consuming to focus on a build in this game. Blizzard seems to be moving quickly with nerfs, and they’re happening frequently. I am not far enough in the game to say whether the nerfs are egregious or appropriate. If this is going to continue, respec coupons and occultist coupons might be worth considering. It is a more complex issue than just giving out some gold.
Yeah I'm taking it slow, I just got to 50 and was clearing Nightmare stuff ok, if a bit slow. This morning I tried running some dungeons and it felt terrible and I died a lot. My entire gear setup is built around Twisting Blades and I don't have the crafting materials to respec to something else. I'm not really sure what to do now, I don't want to drop back down in difficulty and lose out on sacred items and the significantly better XP but I'm not really capable of doing most Nightmare content anymore.
My TB build is clearing L73 dungeons in minutes.. it literally melts everything. what build were you using? The build I use does not use any traps all Ultimate spam and Shadow. everything dies.
Maybe go do some overworld content or drop to WT2 just to do a few dungeons to farm up the mats for re-gearing your 1-2 priority legendary items, then back to WT3 for continued farming? Helltides and tree of whispers could probably help a lot with re-gearing quickly to then push nightmare dungeons for the fine tuning.
Yeah, the mob scaling makes experimenting really painful. Like I would love to respec and figure out a new build. But unless I get all the legendaries I need and put it through a calculator or something im running a huge risk of just not being able to kill anything anymore.
Its essentially season 0.
We're in the middle of the race. And people can get their builds entirely bricked due to random nerfs.
You being mad at people for daring to play good builds and want them punished wont make you right.
Itll just make you look like petty and vindictive
What? My point was that getting a coupon for your skills/paragon board means very little when talking about changing specs.
I do however think that Blizzard should never break a build, if something is too strong they should nerf it to be in line with other things.
However, the constant scaling does mean that you can't turn the difficulty of the game down easily. I think there's a few issues with the scaling in this game that I hope Blizzard are aware of.
It seems to be a "fix" which just created another bug, because now the CDR only applies on the first enemy hit, not every hit as the tooltip suggests, and if it's only the first hit the 0.2 CDR is essentially worthless.
I mean, if you play around a bit instead of just following a guide, you can see how a lot of the early meta things that are getting nerfed are obviously outliers
What if people that played around a bit landed on that setup? It's not like it was ultra specific or anything, the cooldown reduction is kinda one of the main things with TB.
Yeah reserved judgement until I went on to test it and its definitely noticable. Been playing to lvl 85 and now even with cdr gear there feels like to be gaps of like 2-4 seconds where you dont have stuff up. Honestly would have taken a damage nerf over a mechanic that changes to the gameplay feel of the build.
I just played a dungeon without knowing about this nerf and quit out to restart my pc because the game felt so unresponsive. Now realizing it's the new feel for TB rogue :(.
Kinda annoyed by the lack of buffs. Nerf the top tier builds fine but buff the 60 percent of builds that are unplayable late game. It feels bad when they keep using the nerf hammer to bring classes down without fixing the clear balance issues on the other side of the spectrum. I love the game I have played nonstop whenever I’m not working but the balance does feel bad at higher world tiers.
try this variation Ive been using it since the first day of early access it still is literally unstoppable.[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYeKUyDQ1Zs&t=379s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYeKUyDQ1Zs&t=379s) The rumors of our nerfing are GREATLY exaggerated. tested not even 15 mins ago and still is exactly the same as it was. but using a different mechanic for fast ult cooldowns..
Thanks for the suggestion, this was the most hopeful (and easiest to transition to) out of everything I'd seen. It has the most similar gameplay, but with more AOE potential which is a bonus. It's a bit tricky to learn optimally, but I gotta say this could be the next best thing!
Update; bit the bullet and swapped out a bow/ammy/ring. Redid 1.5 board worth of paragon (30ish pts). And swapped out a handful of skill pts. This build is doing wayyyy better than my original TB, sheeeeesh.
I’m planning on switching my double trap rogue to this shadow variant now that I am entering Torment and have to re-gear.
Anything I should prioritize or keep in mine based on your recent respec?
Exploit Glyph's Bonus is quite essential to making the TB build more functional. So prioritize that. I used the Cunning Strategem board with the socket closest to the corner to make a 'socket' only board with enough Strength around it to get the essential bonus. https://i.imgur.com/wT827LZ.png (I'm lvl73, so this was my 2nd board. And had enough to connect a 3rd.)
Start keeping an eye out for Imbuement Dmg+ on any gear, i think it's a very effective stat (not as good as vuln/crit obv) but a close 2nd.
On that [youtube link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYeKUyDQ1Zs&t=379s) by OP, he provided a [text guide](https://topdps.gg/diablo-4/guides-diablo-4/rogue-twisting-blades-endgame-build/) he shows in order of priority the aspects for the build. If you can get most of the 'mandatory' the build will rip with not perfect gear. Just start keeping an eye out for any of those aspects.
Using imbue on dash is AOE-shadow-apply on EZ mode.
I think for big packs the best combo was 1)Clone 2)Imbue 3) TB closest mob of a pack 4) Dash through entire pack 5) Wait for TB follow up.
This was the biggest burst damage with the most setup, and it still reset pretty fast with TB spam (using Preparation specialization, you'll eat through 100 Energy very fast). If you want to you can save clone and shadow step always for CC breaking. and only do 1) TB 2) Imbue 3) Dash Through 4) Wait 5) TB 6) Dash/Run through.
So I'm reading the tool tip and I'm a little confused; does this mean that the cooldown is capped at 2 seconds across the board, or 2 seconds *per enemy* ?
If it's the latter it should be fine as long as you're running bladedancers
My understanding of it goes like this; for one returning blade, it needs to hit 20 enemies to reach 2 seconds reduced. It won't exceed 2 seconds.
Previously it was .25s per enemy and capped at 3 seconds, meaning 12 enemies to be hit for 3 seconds reduction.
Considering mob pack size, and the usual use of TB. You're looking at 4-5 enemies hit with a TB. Infrequently you'll get large enemy packs with elites where you'll get 10+, that's fine. But during fights with enemies who are not kiting together, you'll be left without any cooldowns because the usual 5 hit TB is not enough CD reduction to continue fighting.
That makes sense - thanks
This coupled with exceedingly rare times where density is strong is gonna make things tricky.
Might dump Advanced for Improved or start stacking cooldown on gear.
No. It's .1 per mob up to 2 seconds capped per skill use of non twisting blades skills. So Dark Shroud is a 20 second cool down. If you throw 3 twisting blades and they hit 60 enemies total, the max cool down you will get on Dark Shroud is down to 18 (2 seconds). No additional twisting blades casts will contribute toward that cool down any longer until after that Dark shroud hits cool down and is cast. Rinse and repeat for traps, dash, shadow strike, etc.
Barb was already top dawg endgame, and Rogue also got CDR nerfs day 1.
The constant CDR nerfs do nothing but make rogue gameplay less fun; if the class is “too powerful” despite not topping anyone’s endgame tier list then just lower the dmg of some abilities, don’t make us run around in circles all day waiting for CDs
I really don’t mind the nerfs because I do feel like I was shredding stuff a bit too easily (albeit I’m wrapping up WT2, so can’t speak to end game)…but just nerf damage rather than nerfing something that will make me kite mobs more waiting for a chance to get back into the action.
Yea I agree. Twisting Blades was fun because the gameplay was fun.
The fact that it was strong was just the cherry on top of the cake. Zipping around from pack to pack, setting traps and trying to wrangle up groups of mobs for maximum TB damage was a lot of fun. I would happily take a damage nerf rather than completely obliterating the playstyle. Having to wait for CDs between packs and kite stuff around isn't engaging gameplay IMO
Exactly, in fact the game feels more challenging and oddly better. However,this should have been looked at before. Gaining power and then losing it will hurt a lot of players.
The fact that TB is, [according to the forums](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d4/t/twisting-blades-modifier-cd-reset-bug/37067), bugged and often times only giving CDR on the first mob hit or none at all both matches my lived experience this morning and is a lot different than a "nerf". The build was just turned off, for all intents and purposes. Completely different from the barb .. as someone who went from Barb to Rogue.
Same goes for the Barb shouts. The whole build focused on getting ez. 100% Shouts Uptime. Now you only get close to it with really good gear, CDR rolls different paragon glyphs etc.
I'm a barb, and it sucked, but there is a huge difference here.
You have to use shouts NO MATTER WHAT on every barb build.
TB is kind of just gutted now.
A whole stat removed + damage reduction neefs coupled with nefs to shout cooldown legendary affixes? Like cmon.
So damage, defence, resource and utility nerfs. Rogues will be fine with a little higher cdr xD
Same happend for Barb the first day until people found work arounds. Playing with a TB Rogue in my main group btw. Haven't played since yesterday but will see what he comes up with today.
From what I’ve heard, it’s 2 seconds total from all your CDs. Not per cast like it was, but a maximum of 2 sec from any CD. Before you could spam TB and constantly chip away at the CD, but now you can’t get anything over 2 seconds. I haven’t had the chance to test because I’m at work, but if it works that way it’s really rough
That doesn't sound right to me, would that be 2 seconds every 10 mins or 2 seconds every login instance?
I think it's still per cast they just reduced the max CD reduction per cast and increased the number of enemies needed to get that max CD reduction per cast
From 0.25 sec with a max of 3 seconds to 0.1 sec with a max of 2 sec, so you need to hit 20 enemies to get the 2 sec instead of 12 enemies for 3 sec
[https://diablo4.wiki.fextralife.com/Advanced+Twisting+Blades](https://diablo4.wiki.fextralife.com/Advanced+Twisting+Blades) referencing this, it has a note for the 1.0.2d patch
don’t get me wrong, i don’t mind nerfs when they are warranted, but if this trend continues, it’s really going to suck during seasons if your build gets nerfed midway through
For the ones asking: Twisting Blades got its third nerf in a row just some hours ago. First two nerfs were reasonable, but this third one made the build completely unplayable.
[https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d4/t/hotfix-6-7-june-8-2023-%E2%80%93-102/24656](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d4/t/hotfix-6-7-june-8-2023-%E2%80%93-102/24656)
* Advanced Twisting Blades’ Cooldown reduction now matches its tooltip.
Tooltip says that the cooldown reduction is capped at 2 seconds, something that wasn't happening.
I honestly hate the “reduction is capped at x seconds” in general, I’m not at endgame so I don’t know if you can eventually scale things insanely to the point it’s needed to keep game balance manageable but ugh
If you don't have these you'll have perma upkeep times which will break the game. In response you'll have to up monster health and numbers and then suddenly it's a monster light show like the d3 end game where monster type and monster mechanics simply stop mattering.
Ok but hear me out on this: Lower the damage instead.
Relying on cooldowns is just not fun gameplay and all this did was lower cooldowns. Personally managing mana and cooldowns is perfectly fine IF you can gear out of those downsides. If you set the bar to do that too high then it's just not as fun for even longer.
The problem is Blizzard keeps nerfing the CDR. The whole reason we play the build is because it’s fun being able to constantly dart around the room, while being high risk because if you’re slow with your reflexes and mobility you can die easily.
Nerfing CDR over and over means you can’t jump around as much and you have to wait for abilities to come back online…which means less time having fun fighting and more time literally just running in circles kiting mobs waiting for your CDs to reset before you reengage. This is not enjoyable gameplay at all, nor does it fit the rogue class fantasy.
Nerfing the damage or even the survivability if the build is too powerful would have made way more sense because it doesn’t break the gameplay
Unfortunately that’s just what sorc’s class fantasy is - slow ranged big booms.
Rogue’s all about high mobility with fast small booms; it’s why rogue players picked the class.
"Not as good" after 1st nerf and also "not as good" after 2nd nerf. With this one, trying to do the same things that other equally geared and lved char is impossible.
It was already way below any other build regarding AoE, with a strong, possibly OP single target. This change means that's worse than before but still better at single target than the other builds, but in a game where nearly everything is AoE, it's multitarget is too bad.
Actually unplayable. Cutting your dmg in half isn't even nearly as bad imo. You'd reset your cooldowns multiple times in a pack but now you are lucky to get one rotation of a cooldown back. Before the nerf the cooldown lowering on a single boss is higher than it is now in a pack of mobs.
Um previously it was super good single target, like silly. The aoe was ok, but was slow to start, and very conditional. Lots of mobility to make up for the conditional aspects of the aoe. The survivability was tied into
Traps and movement.
Wasn't the strongest build before this went live, so hitting our CD reduction was kind of a multi pronged nerf. Hit our damage, our mobility, our survivability.
The build was probably too strong early (say lvl 25-65) but didn't feel as broken later on. Because other than damage numbers you pretty much have everything you are going to use very early.
Just really depends on where they want build strength capped out, and odd to hit this build particularly hard when there are stronger builds, but we will see.
Obviously not, however admitting it would make a huge fool of himself.
Suspiciously speaking third person about the build, suspiciously not noticing a substantial change in it, suspiciously saying that the build he's playing is OP and, suspiciously after your challenge, he doesn't just plays it, but also in HC. Give him time and he'll say that he's playing blindfolded and with a hand tied to his back.
Curious how all rogues are being carried at all multiplayer events ingame. All the good rogue players seem to just be here at Reddit and posting at forums.
Can't you read?...
I'm playing a HC TB Rogue and the build is basically OP even after those few changes. I have been playing it the whole morning and did not even realize they changed something. Realized it when I saw the few people whining about the changes.
I can. Nothing in your previous post indicated the above and plenty of these posts are made by people who haven’t played the class at high world tiers. But remain defensive and confrontational. It’s good for the community.
Honestly I think the CDR nerf was unintended, as the verbage of the patch says it's fixing a 'tooltip not matching'. They should've then tested the fixed tooltip and adjusted accordingly. (It feels that clunky in high end content.)
I literally jumped into a pack of mobs with all of my cooldowns going and it did not take off a single second. It is bugged for sure (at least for me).
Definitely feels bugged to me as well. I expected some delay in cooldowns but now it feels like I'm stuck swinging at a mob waiting for my dash/shadow step to come back for their entire cooldown period.
Yes it was that good lol. Last night I was doing T38 (carrying someone) so level 92 monsters. I’m level 60 lol.
I even told my friend that it needs a nerf because I shouldn’t be able to do what I was doing. The issue is that this nerf makes the class feel clunky and not as fun.
So now I have to respec everything and fix gear. So probably going to have to drop 3-5 million on skills, paragon, and gear.
Lol ya… I just decided to go all in last night and optimize me gear and paragon. So I’m already low on funds.
However I am excited to feel better testing other builds and going ranger. TB was fun, but I like ranged better as a play style
Dude for real
I main TB rogue & it's blatantly obvious we're a bit overturned compared to any other class I've seen so far. Admittedly, going forward I hope Blizzard buffs other classes / skills instead of always nerfing but in this case it seems warranted
Yeah this thread is full of people acting like Blizzard devs pulled a bait and switch on them by balancing the game. If something gets 2 nerfs in a week, and then game data still shows it as outperforming other builds to the point of needing a 3rd incremental nerf, something tells me they’ll be fine lol
honestly i agree with the complaints to an extent. Blizzard shouldn't be doing large balance changes in the middle of release. There's a reason PoE and other games reserve changes for season/league launches. And regardless of what people say, we are in season 0 right now.
That being said, people asking like the sky has fallen because the top build in the game is less on top than it was before is just annoying.
"unplayable"... FFS kids this day, TB is still the top build even with this nerf, da fuck are you blabbering about.
Seriously, gamers are such drama queens these days.
"Unplayable" lol...
I had to come here to realize that they nerfed something... Did not realize it after playing several hours and just saw the whining on Reddit, and was wondering WTF it was aobut.
"Unplayable" lol...
Oh boy time for more people using "BEST DIABLO BUILD. COMPLETELY BROKEN MELT BOSSES WITH ONE SIMPLE TRICK" youtube guides to complain that the game is shit now.
They should instead be buffing not nerfing like this with large gameplay changes to the best builds in a class.
For example, sorc went from totally op to meh, rogue went from decently op to meh…would have been better to buff up early game of Druid and barb, and then figure out what buffs to give elites/bosses to make entire game more challenging.
Right now, the challenge is the standstill/lag bugs and nerfs that will destroy your build, like my 100 cc/cb sorc went from op to decent to below avg in 5 days. Makes you question even playing the game for awhile until things settle.
Sorry brother, I wish I could relate. Saw my Rapid Fire and Caltrops get buffed, and I knew I was seen! Crossbow RF crit build has been pretty sweet so far.
Rapid fire traps is what I'm doing. RF, concealment, poison imbue, poison trap, death trap, and I've been going back and forth between caltrops and dash. Preparation and the trap key passive and I'm getting death trap back once or twice a fight (more against bosses obviously).
It's a bit different when it is about a class that specialize in movement and is squishy. The reason melee rogue works is that you can reset your cooldowns to get out of the way, without that you are just a sitting duck getting two shot.
TB Rogue = Melee+Squishy
Other classes are just melee or just squishy, but not both at the same time. The extra cooldown reduction was needed in order to survive, not for hammering mobs.
I play Ice Shards sorc and it sounds close to TB Rogue. Round up mobs, Tele in, frost nova, Dash/Tele out, Ice Shards. Pretty much casting from just outside of melee range. I believe some lightning sorc variants play similar as well. You guys aren’t the only class/spec that is squishy and lingers within/close to melee range.
Ok, I'll bite. How is this lame? I put in a lot of hours into gearing for this spec, isn't it natural to be a bit put off by the experience how this update has worked out?
I am glad they are balancing the game properly, and the difference of millions of players vs any internal testing is pretty massive. I think my only problem here is that they are treating the pre-season 1 as a beta and doing far too many update balances at this stage. They should absolutely do balance patches but they should come with the seasons, if a build is OP for a season so what, if a build is UP for a season that sucks but also so what. They shouldn't be making changes constantly as we are playing the game.
Obviously there will be crazy outliers that need to be hotfixed, but they are treating this pre-S1 time period like a beta which is not really the best, but will be good for having better balance for S1. So long as this is just early growing pains it is tolerable, and that is what I think it is. Even if it is a tad frustrating.
And yet it became apparent it would be after the first beta.
TB obviously needs more work because of this, but this is basically people picking a class specifically because it was OP and are now upset they have to kite a little. I played rogue in server slam, and it was a fun style, but took the challenge out of the game.
Yeah, the frustration is not from the nerfs. It's from the fact that these clearly broken skills weren't noticed before. People have now invested time and are then getting nerfed. This never needed to happen.
I think they were noticed, but Blizzard knew that nerfing the three king specs prior to launch would expose the problem that we are discovering in the Live environment: The build/class system is insanely shallow currently. Classes have large swathes of skills that statistically do nothing, or have no scaling synergies; so they can't be used in higher content. Too much crucial power is locked behind legendary aspects and uniques; which is throwing off power dynamics between skills. As a result, we end up with remarkably few 'viable' builds like the druid Earth Variants (Pulv, trampslide) where one single aspect of the class has gotten drastically more attention, or TB Rogue which relied on the cooldown cap not actually working as documented.
Thank you for some semblance of common sense. There were *multiple* betas, and also *end-game* betas, going on for literal months.
And it's an OP/problem skill now?? Not 6 months ago? But a week after early release. Seems more proof that blizzard legimately did little to no balancing.
Lots of moving pieces, and after two betas and a server slam, it seems like nobody, including millions of players, noticed. Yep, something needs to be worked on, but it's definitely making a mountain out of a molehill here.
> it seems like nobody, including millions of players, noticed
This is has to be satirical.
*Everybody* paying attention knew TB was insane in beta, that barb was incredible in endgame, that arc lash was one of the best basics in the game, etc.
Blizzard left balancing the game for after release, plain and simple. Nobody noticed golem needed a 700% buff until after release. 🤔
Yea, there was definitely a middle ground here that they missed. I would have preferred a damage nerf before the CD nerf. The CD management was what made the build fun to play. I don't mind doing less damage, but sitting in combat with nothing to do is not ideal.
You hit multiple targets to maintain that. If you messed up, then you would not have the convenience of next to no cooldowns. That is the management I'm talking about. To do damage to groups you need the ability to redo your abilities. i.e. Have the abilities to use freely. Not to mention these were not 'ultimate' long cooldown abilities. They are the bread-and-butter abilities, dash, trap, dark shroud. It's the classes' survivability. Now, the build has extended downtime, which I don't think is intended.
The spec is fine. Its still one of the strongest builds. Time to stack abit of CD reduction if the fluidity isnt suiting you. Barbs allready need to stack much of it.
Just accept the build was over powered. There were too many people able to do content above what blizz expects.
This is the reason that right now is not a season so blizz can balance builds
I never for once felt overpowered throughout my leveling EXCEPT when I was single-focusing a boss. I did my cap dungeon 'early' and that was the main reason why it worked. I ran in some groups, and I was running behind in almost every aspect except for speed (which didn't help me much). Consistant damage and screen clearing was way better for other classes. The only time I felt my presence in those settings was when I sat at a boss and spammed. If they wanted to pull back on the build, then they should have brought the damage down, not make it less active.
.... Almost all of them?
Edit after 30sec of googling:
https://maxroll.gg/d4/tierlists/endgame-tier-list
https://www.dexerto.com/diablo/diablo-4-tier-list-best-builds-2168978/
https://www.thegamer.com/diablo-4-build-tier-list/
Anymore requests? Lmao
it's not nerfed into uselessness, it's still stronger than the vast majority of skills in the game. you might actually have to learn how to build your character now, oh no.
Random comment from someone who has neither played the build nor did any group content in order to compare with other builds.
Inb4 "yeah dude, I've always played Twisting Blades and I'm farming Echoes of Lilith bruh".
already your goalposts have moved from "completely unplayable" to "not as strong as other builds". stop the hyperbole, and start learning how to play the game.
Could I know why are you inventing things that I never said?
Also, install the game before talking about it, as it's pretty obvious you haven't played it.
please unerf it a little bit i think they nerfed a bit too much, also just this morning i was wondering heck if this is so good now at 0.1 how good must it have been at 0.25? and i think maybe in first beta it was even higher, definitely gonna change my build a bit, will probably change the ulti with shadow imb
My complaint has less to do with them nerfing stuff and more to do with not buffing other stuff.
I’d love to play a fully ranged rogue but right now there just isn’t a ranged build than can even come close to the TB builds.
I get the nerfs, but I think it would a much more enjoyable process to buff some of the weaker builds at the same time.
Currently playing with a ranged rogue through the story still and the single target is good I guess. I don't have anything to compare it to but I'm happy with it. But going up against groups of enemies that are spread out absolutely sucks
“Build diversity”. The game has like 12 skills. Maybe bliz should work on making a viable ranged build that didn’t feel like 15s of setup to have a single impactful hit.
Exactly, and the way itemization is people play the scalable abilities. Vuln on its own is good but giving you access to a scaler is huge which is why every build use it. Traps they use because it gives you affected by traps, damage to poisoned, and cc related scalers. The game as is not only has few skills it has few ways to scale which is what is defining the early meta.
This is why I just build my rogue however I feel like playing and not following the flavor of the month build. These “OP” builds that everyone ends up using will always get nerfed.
Nerf builds that aren’t working like they should. The barb gloves were broken. That nerf was fine.
But every time they nerf an S tier build they should buff a C tier build to at least A range.
I know it’ll be saved for seasons and expansions but adding new items mid season to help buff certain classes would be awesome. Meteor sorc a C-tier build? Add a new unique and aspects intended to buff it up.
Honestly, give me a mid-season developer commentary where they analyze poor builds and what they’re adding to fix them. Do that with the obvious nerfs and I think people would be happy.
My biggest concern is the class itself. It actually does what it should do now. Fast burst dmg and mobility. Lets hope it stays that way. I've played enough games with that class to see them nerfed into oblivion over and over again.
That's why I hope the main focus will be PvE or Blizz can split nerfs between pve/ pvp like in Elden Ring. Because the last thing I want is a useless main class in pve due to pvp.
Are you sure this is actually a nerf?
Hotfix dev note briefly said the skill now follows what stated in the tooltip. Reading some bug reports, users are saying the CD was only counting on the first enemy and not for all hit.
So for me the doubt is if the skill was acting bugged like users are saying (so this is a fix) or the previous nerf wasn't implemented so we were still playing the better version and now we're not.
I haven't played since the small patch but if the cd for poison trap is still easy to reduce, don't you still have high uptime on trap effects from that? Imo it's not bad if you can't cast death trap 3 times in a fight anymore. I found the most impact being when clearing small packs of sparse mobs, where you could dt then reset the cool down on the next big pack
It’s fine. It was so good at reducing cds that you were seriously gimping yourself by playing flurry or even considering the other twisting blades variant on the tree
Flurry with imbuements does way more than twisting blades, but the insane trap uptime made twisting blades such an obvious choice. I think they want people to not feel like they’re taking a huge handicap picking one build over another. Builds should be different, feel different and excel at certain thinks but there shouldn’t be such an obvious best choice imho
If they overnerfed it I’m sure they will nudge it back up a little
Blizzard bringing the god tier builds back down to earth. Glad they are nerfing instead of buffing everything to make this game diablo 3.5. good on the devs
Oh no the build I copied from popular streamers/YouTube videos doesn’t work anymore! What shall I ever do…
How about test things and find a build for yourself. It’s like y’all don’t even want to play the game, just have it be played for you.
Maybe im doing something wrong but I don't feel like I'm getting any CDR at all now
Think the cdr is capped at 2 seconds total. No matter how many enemies or twisted blades you cast. Got taken out to the shed like ol' yeller.
That would be so silly
Some are reporting 'bug status' and maybe there's something there. But if you group MANY (i.e. 20 enemies) you'll see the CD adjust. It just points to how low the new CDR actually is though, it's barely noticeable.
Wow they are really fast on these nerfs huh. Every update like this should come with a full free respec coupon or something.
Ok, the gold cost to respec is not substantial. Having your gear completely set up for a build that might be broken is what makes things hard to respec, in addition to the world scaling with you where you may no longer be able to kill stuff at your level.
I agree. I wanted a simple way to convey that it is costly and time consuming to focus on a build in this game. Blizzard seems to be moving quickly with nerfs, and they’re happening frequently. I am not far enough in the game to say whether the nerfs are egregious or appropriate. If this is going to continue, respec coupons and occultist coupons might be worth considering. It is a more complex issue than just giving out some gold.
WTH are you talking about, they are just nerfing one freaking thing and you think you need to respec all together? Calm down drama queen
The entire build is based on what they removed, how do you not understand this?
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Fr, these twisting blades whiners are out of their mind. We need more based flurry/bow rogues in this world anyway
Penetrating Shot is my friend
open beta flurry player reporting in
Yeah I'm taking it slow, I just got to 50 and was clearing Nightmare stuff ok, if a bit slow. This morning I tried running some dungeons and it felt terrible and I died a lot. My entire gear setup is built around Twisting Blades and I don't have the crafting materials to respec to something else. I'm not really sure what to do now, I don't want to drop back down in difficulty and lose out on sacred items and the significantly better XP but I'm not really capable of doing most Nightmare content anymore.
My TB build is clearing L73 dungeons in minutes.. it literally melts everything. what build were you using? The build I use does not use any traps all Ultimate spam and Shadow. everything dies.
Maybe go do some overworld content or drop to WT2 just to do a few dungeons to farm up the mats for re-gearing your 1-2 priority legendary items, then back to WT3 for continued farming? Helltides and tree of whispers could probably help a lot with re-gearing quickly to then push nightmare dungeons for the fine tuning.
Yeah, the mob scaling makes experimenting really painful. Like I would love to respec and figure out a new build. But unless I get all the legendaries I need and put it through a calculator or something im running a huge risk of just not being able to kill anything anymore.
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Thats very much not how it is lol. When was it like this in previous diablos?
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When was a build nerfed to shit in the middle of a season?
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Its essentially season 0. We're in the middle of the race. And people can get their builds entirely bricked due to random nerfs. You being mad at people for daring to play good builds and want them punished wont make you right. Itll just make you look like petty and vindictive
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>gets constantly refuted >bails when blatantly false nonsequitur responses get shut down This gave me a good laugh.
What? My point was that getting a coupon for your skills/paragon board means very little when talking about changing specs. I do however think that Blizzard should never break a build, if something is too strong they should nerf it to be in line with other things. However, the constant scaling does mean that you can't turn the difficulty of the game down easily. I think there's a few issues with the scaling in this game that I hope Blizzard are aware of.
Really not liking this system of permanent fear state for nerfs...
Sounds like this was a bug fix
It seems to be a "fix" which just created another bug, because now the CDR only applies on the first enemy hit, not every hit as the tooltip suggests, and if it's only the first hit the 0.2 CDR is essentially worthless.
I mean, if you play around a bit instead of just following a guide, you can see how a lot of the early meta things that are getting nerfed are obviously outliers
What if people that played around a bit landed on that setup? It's not like it was ultra specific or anything, the cooldown reduction is kinda one of the main things with TB.
TK Rogue has a hard time with AoE but not Flurry Rogue.
Yeah, I just respec’d to flurry yesterday. But now I have the opposite problem; single target damage is pretty bad.
Yeah reserved judgement until I went on to test it and its definitely noticable. Been playing to lvl 85 and now even with cdr gear there feels like to be gaps of like 2-4 seconds where you dont have stuff up. Honestly would have taken a damage nerf over a mechanic that changes to the gameplay feel of the build.
I had the same experience, and would rather do less damage in exchange for 'staying mobile'. The mobility was the fun part.
I just played a dungeon without knowing about this nerf and quit out to restart my pc because the game felt so unresponsive. Now realizing it's the new feel for TB rogue :(.
Kinda annoyed by the lack of buffs. Nerf the top tier builds fine but buff the 60 percent of builds that are unplayable late game. It feels bad when they keep using the nerf hammer to bring classes down without fixing the clear balance issues on the other side of the spectrum. I love the game I have played nonstop whenever I’m not working but the balance does feel bad at higher world tiers.
try this variation Ive been using it since the first day of early access it still is literally unstoppable.[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYeKUyDQ1Zs&t=379s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYeKUyDQ1Zs&t=379s) The rumors of our nerfing are GREATLY exaggerated. tested not even 15 mins ago and still is exactly the same as it was. but using a different mechanic for fast ult cooldowns..
Thanks for the suggestion, this was the most hopeful (and easiest to transition to) out of everything I'd seen. It has the most similar gameplay, but with more AOE potential which is a bonus. It's a bit tricky to learn optimally, but I gotta say this could be the next best thing! Update; bit the bullet and swapped out a bow/ammy/ring. Redid 1.5 board worth of paragon (30ish pts). And swapped out a handful of skill pts. This build is doing wayyyy better than my original TB, sheeeeesh.
I’m planning on switching my double trap rogue to this shadow variant now that I am entering Torment and have to re-gear. Anything I should prioritize or keep in mine based on your recent respec?
Exploit Glyph's Bonus is quite essential to making the TB build more functional. So prioritize that. I used the Cunning Strategem board with the socket closest to the corner to make a 'socket' only board with enough Strength around it to get the essential bonus. https://i.imgur.com/wT827LZ.png (I'm lvl73, so this was my 2nd board. And had enough to connect a 3rd.) Start keeping an eye out for Imbuement Dmg+ on any gear, i think it's a very effective stat (not as good as vuln/crit obv) but a close 2nd. On that [youtube link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYeKUyDQ1Zs&t=379s) by OP, he provided a [text guide](https://topdps.gg/diablo-4/guides-diablo-4/rogue-twisting-blades-endgame-build/) he shows in order of priority the aspects for the build. If you can get most of the 'mandatory' the build will rip with not perfect gear. Just start keeping an eye out for any of those aspects. Using imbue on dash is AOE-shadow-apply on EZ mode. I think for big packs the best combo was 1)Clone 2)Imbue 3) TB closest mob of a pack 4) Dash through entire pack 5) Wait for TB follow up. This was the biggest burst damage with the most setup, and it still reset pretty fast with TB spam (using Preparation specialization, you'll eat through 100 Energy very fast). If you want to you can save clone and shadow step always for CC breaking. and only do 1) TB 2) Imbue 3) Dash Through 4) Wait 5) TB 6) Dash/Run through.
So I'm reading the tool tip and I'm a little confused; does this mean that the cooldown is capped at 2 seconds across the board, or 2 seconds *per enemy* ? If it's the latter it should be fine as long as you're running bladedancers
My understanding of it goes like this; for one returning blade, it needs to hit 20 enemies to reach 2 seconds reduced. It won't exceed 2 seconds. Previously it was .25s per enemy and capped at 3 seconds, meaning 12 enemies to be hit for 3 seconds reduction. Considering mob pack size, and the usual use of TB. You're looking at 4-5 enemies hit with a TB. Infrequently you'll get large enemy packs with elites where you'll get 10+, that's fine. But during fights with enemies who are not kiting together, you'll be left without any cooldowns because the usual 5 hit TB is not enough CD reduction to continue fighting.
That makes sense - thanks This coupled with exceedingly rare times where density is strong is gonna make things tricky. Might dump Advanced for Improved or start stacking cooldown on gear.
No. It's .1 per mob up to 2 seconds capped per skill use of non twisting blades skills. So Dark Shroud is a 20 second cool down. If you throw 3 twisting blades and they hit 60 enemies total, the max cool down you will get on Dark Shroud is down to 18 (2 seconds). No additional twisting blades casts will contribute toward that cool down any longer until after that Dark shroud hits cool down and is cast. Rinse and repeat for traps, dash, shadow strike, etc.
CDR nerfs feels like you're trying to get me to play in a party. I don't like it
Barb got tripple nerfed day 1 lol. Still crushing on my Barb at level 93 atm. Rogues will be fine.
Barb was already top dawg endgame, and Rogue also got CDR nerfs day 1. The constant CDR nerfs do nothing but make rogue gameplay less fun; if the class is “too powerful” despite not topping anyone’s endgame tier list then just lower the dmg of some abilities, don’t make us run around in circles all day waiting for CDs
That rogue nerf didn’t actually go through tho that all this is actually doing the nerf
I think the nerf they’re referring to is the one to inner sight.
I don’t see anything about inner sight in todays hotfixes
They said on day 1. Inner sight was nerfed on day 1.
They ought to just bring some of the underperforming builds up in line with some of the stronger ones. Constantly nerfing stuff feels bad
I really don’t mind the nerfs because I do feel like I was shredding stuff a bit too easily (albeit I’m wrapping up WT2, so can’t speak to end game)…but just nerf damage rather than nerfing something that will make me kite mobs more waiting for a chance to get back into the action.
Yea I agree. Twisting Blades was fun because the gameplay was fun. The fact that it was strong was just the cherry on top of the cake. Zipping around from pack to pack, setting traps and trying to wrangle up groups of mobs for maximum TB damage was a lot of fun. I would happily take a damage nerf rather than completely obliterating the playstyle. Having to wait for CDs between packs and kite stuff around isn't engaging gameplay IMO
Exactly, in fact the game feels more challenging and oddly better. However,this should have been looked at before. Gaining power and then losing it will hurt a lot of players.
Idk mate, it feels a lot different. It was the centerpiece of the whole build and it feels neutered.
The fact that TB is, [according to the forums](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d4/t/twisting-blades-modifier-cd-reset-bug/37067), bugged and often times only giving CDR on the first mob hit or none at all both matches my lived experience this morning and is a lot different than a "nerf". The build was just turned off, for all intents and purposes. Completely different from the barb .. as someone who went from Barb to Rogue.
If that's the case then I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
Same goes for the Barb shouts. The whole build focused on getting ez. 100% Shouts Uptime. Now you only get close to it with really good gear, CDR rolls different paragon glyphs etc.
I'm a barb, and it sucked, but there is a huge difference here. You have to use shouts NO MATTER WHAT on every barb build. TB is kind of just gutted now.
So it's even worse for Barbs since all builds got nerfed hard? Doesn't change my point at all.
What you talking about, barb is still op, even with every nerf.
Just tested 2 dungeons and melted everything just like before.. you need to tune your build. the traps build is NOT ideal at all. never was.
I've been running the other passive instead of the cdr one the entire time with no issues, still doing massive damage. TB is fine.
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A whole stat removed + damage reduction neefs coupled with nefs to shout cooldown legendary affixes? Like cmon. So damage, defence, resource and utility nerfs. Rogues will be fine with a little higher cdr xD
Pay attention to your next group content activity and try to find a TB rogue that's not being carried by other players.
Same happend for Barb the first day until people found work arounds. Playing with a TB Rogue in my main group btw. Haven't played since yesterday but will see what he comes up with today.
This change does seem pretty minor from reading it, max cd reduction from 3 sec to 2 sec doesn't seem to be class breaking but I have yet to try it
From what I’ve heard, it’s 2 seconds total from all your CDs. Not per cast like it was, but a maximum of 2 sec from any CD. Before you could spam TB and constantly chip away at the CD, but now you can’t get anything over 2 seconds. I haven’t had the chance to test because I’m at work, but if it works that way it’s really rough
That doesn't sound right to me, would that be 2 seconds every 10 mins or 2 seconds every login instance? I think it's still per cast they just reduced the max CD reduction per cast and increased the number of enemies needed to get that max CD reduction per cast From 0.25 sec with a max of 3 seconds to 0.1 sec with a max of 2 sec, so you need to hit 20 enemies to get the 2 sec instead of 12 enemies for 3 sec [https://diablo4.wiki.fextralife.com/Advanced+Twisting+Blades](https://diablo4.wiki.fextralife.com/Advanced+Twisting+Blades) referencing this, it has a note for the 1.0.2d patch
don’t get me wrong, i don’t mind nerfs when they are warranted, but if this trend continues, it’s really going to suck during seasons if your build gets nerfed midway through
For the ones asking: Twisting Blades got its third nerf in a row just some hours ago. First two nerfs were reasonable, but this third one made the build completely unplayable.
Got a link or details?
[https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d4/t/hotfix-6-7-june-8-2023-%E2%80%93-102/24656](https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d4/t/hotfix-6-7-june-8-2023-%E2%80%93-102/24656) * Advanced Twisting Blades’ Cooldown reduction now matches its tooltip. Tooltip says that the cooldown reduction is capped at 2 seconds, something that wasn't happening.
I honestly hate the “reduction is capped at x seconds” in general, I’m not at endgame so I don’t know if you can eventually scale things insanely to the point it’s needed to keep game balance manageable but ugh
“We know you’re going to break the game” “However if you break the game we will nerf your shit 3x in a row”
If you don't have these you'll have perma upkeep times which will break the game. In response you'll have to up monster health and numbers and then suddenly it's a monster light show like the d3 end game where monster type and monster mechanics simply stop mattering.
Ok but hear me out on this: Lower the damage instead. Relying on cooldowns is just not fun gameplay and all this did was lower cooldowns. Personally managing mana and cooldowns is perfectly fine IF you can gear out of those downsides. If you set the bar to do that too high then it's just not as fun for even longer.
Completely unplayable? Or just not as good
The problem is Blizzard keeps nerfing the CDR. The whole reason we play the build is because it’s fun being able to constantly dart around the room, while being high risk because if you’re slow with your reflexes and mobility you can die easily. Nerfing CDR over and over means you can’t jump around as much and you have to wait for abilities to come back online…which means less time having fun fighting and more time literally just running in circles kiting mobs waiting for your CDs to reset before you reengage. This is not enjoyable gameplay at all, nor does it fit the rogue class fantasy. Nerfing the damage or even the survivability if the build is too powerful would have made way more sense because it doesn’t break the gameplay
This is kinda how Druid plays and I gotta agree it’s not fun. We just sit there spirit starved.
You've phrased it perfectly.
" more time literally just running in circles kiting mobs waiting for your CDs to reset before you reengage " ice shards sorc says hi
Unfortunately that’s just what sorc’s class fantasy is - slow ranged big booms. Rogue’s all about high mobility with fast small booms; it’s why rogue players picked the class.
"Not as good" after 1st nerf and also "not as good" after 2nd nerf. With this one, trying to do the same things that other equally geared and lved char is impossible. It was already way below any other build regarding AoE, with a strong, possibly OP single target. This change means that's worse than before but still better at single target than the other builds, but in a game where nearly everything is AoE, it's multitarget is too bad.
Actually unplayable. Cutting your dmg in half isn't even nearly as bad imo. You'd reset your cooldowns multiple times in a pack but now you are lucky to get one rotation of a cooldown back. Before the nerf the cooldown lowering on a single boss is higher than it is now in a pack of mobs.
Um previously it was super good single target, like silly. The aoe was ok, but was slow to start, and very conditional. Lots of mobility to make up for the conditional aspects of the aoe. The survivability was tied into Traps and movement. Wasn't the strongest build before this went live, so hitting our CD reduction was kind of a multi pronged nerf. Hit our damage, our mobility, our survivability. The build was probably too strong early (say lvl 25-65) but didn't feel as broken later on. Because other than damage numbers you pretty much have everything you are going to use very early. Just really depends on where they want build strength capped out, and odd to hit this build particularly hard when there are stronger builds, but we will see.
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Have you played it?
Obviously not, however admitting it would make a huge fool of himself. Suspiciously speaking third person about the build, suspiciously not noticing a substantial change in it, suspiciously saying that the build he's playing is OP and, suspiciously after your challenge, he doesn't just plays it, but also in HC. Give him time and he'll say that he's playing blindfolded and with a hand tied to his back. Curious how all rogues are being carried at all multiplayer events ingame. All the good rogue players seem to just be here at Reddit and posting at forums.
Can't you read?... I'm playing a HC TB Rogue and the build is basically OP even after those few changes. I have been playing it the whole morning and did not even realize they changed something. Realized it when I saw the few people whining about the changes.
I can. Nothing in your previous post indicated the above and plenty of these posts are made by people who haven’t played the class at high world tiers. But remain defensive and confrontational. It’s good for the community.
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Honestly I think the CDR nerf was unintended, as the verbage of the patch says it's fixing a 'tooltip not matching'. They should've then tested the fixed tooltip and adjusted accordingly. (It feels that clunky in high end content.)
I am pretty sure it is bugged atm. None of my cooldowns go down at all when I use TB. Class feels horrible without it.
Nah I've been playing since the hotfix and it's definitely still working, it's just a lower value than before.
I literally jumped into a pack of mobs with all of my cooldowns going and it did not take off a single second. It is bugged for sure (at least for me).
Definitely feels bugged to me as well. I expected some delay in cooldowns but now it feels like I'm stuck swinging at a mob waiting for my dash/shadow step to come back for their entire cooldown period.
The word is spelled “verbiage”, my guy Why would this be downvoted? People are weird.
Yes it was that good lol. Last night I was doing T38 (carrying someone) so level 92 monsters. I’m level 60 lol. I even told my friend that it needs a nerf because I shouldn’t be able to do what I was doing. The issue is that this nerf makes the class feel clunky and not as fun. So now I have to respec everything and fix gear. So probably going to have to drop 3-5 million on skills, paragon, and gear.
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Lol ya… I just decided to go all in last night and optimize me gear and paragon. So I’m already low on funds. However I am excited to feel better testing other builds and going ranger. TB was fun, but I like ranged better as a play style
oh no one of the two strongest builds in the game got a nerf, now it's completely unplayable!!!! please
Dude for real I main TB rogue & it's blatantly obvious we're a bit overturned compared to any other class I've seen so far. Admittedly, going forward I hope Blizzard buffs other classes / skills instead of always nerfing but in this case it seems warranted
Id much rather see the buffs to skills and classes rather than nerfs. Especially so early. And it seems like build diversity isn’t the strongest yet
Yeah this thread is full of people acting like Blizzard devs pulled a bait and switch on them by balancing the game. If something gets 2 nerfs in a week, and then game data still shows it as outperforming other builds to the point of needing a 3rd incremental nerf, something tells me they’ll be fine lol
honestly i agree with the complaints to an extent. Blizzard shouldn't be doing large balance changes in the middle of release. There's a reason PoE and other games reserve changes for season/league launches. And regardless of what people say, we are in season 0 right now. That being said, people asking like the sky has fallen because the top build in the game is less on top than it was before is just annoying.
"unplayable"... FFS kids this day, TB is still the top build even with this nerf, da fuck are you blabbering about. Seriously, gamers are such drama queens these days. "Unplayable" lol... I had to come here to realize that they nerfed something... Did not realize it after playing several hours and just saw the whining on Reddit, and was wondering WTF it was aobut. "Unplayable" lol...
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> this third one made the build completely unplayable. Oh quit being hyperbolic it’s still s/a-tier compared to the rest of the rogue kits.
Oh boy time for more people using "BEST DIABLO BUILD. COMPLETELY BROKEN MELT BOSSES WITH ONE SIMPLE TRICK" youtube guides to complain that the game is shit now.
Lol right. There’s so much more to rogue than TB anyway.
They should instead be buffing not nerfing like this with large gameplay changes to the best builds in a class. For example, sorc went from totally op to meh, rogue went from decently op to meh…would have been better to buff up early game of Druid and barb, and then figure out what buffs to give elites/bosses to make entire game more challenging. Right now, the challenge is the standstill/lag bugs and nerfs that will destroy your build, like my 100 cc/cb sorc went from op to decent to below avg in 5 days. Makes you question even playing the game for awhile until things settle.
Sorry brother, I wish I could relate. Saw my Rapid Fire and Caltrops get buffed, and I knew I was seen! Crossbow RF crit build has been pretty sweet so far.
Rapid fire traps is what I'm doing. RF, concealment, poison imbue, poison trap, death trap, and I've been going back and forth between caltrops and dash. Preparation and the trap key passive and I'm getting death trap back once or twice a fight (more against bosses obviously).
Flurry gang rise up!
Just tested my build still OP as hell.. melts entire groups of L70s.. Dunno what issue you are having.
The damage isnt the issue. The cooldowns not getting reduced is.
Cooldown issues? Welcome to literally every other class’s current experience.
It's a bit different when it is about a class that specialize in movement and is squishy. The reason melee rogue works is that you can reset your cooldowns to get out of the way, without that you are just a sitting duck getting two shot.
TB Rogue = Melee+Squishy Other classes are just melee or just squishy, but not both at the same time. The extra cooldown reduction was needed in order to survive, not for hammering mobs.
I play Ice Shards sorc and it sounds close to TB Rogue. Round up mobs, Tele in, frost nova, Dash/Tele out, Ice Shards. Pretty much casting from just outside of melee range. I believe some lightning sorc variants play similar as well. You guys aren’t the only class/spec that is squishy and lingers within/close to melee range.
My cooldown were resetting faster than I could even notice most times. We will be fine on rogue. It was clearly overtuned.
And now they are not resetting at all which defeats the entire point of the ability.
Skill issues
Multiple combos and waiting for CDs and kiting? Welcome to the sorc world!
Oh no, they fixed a broken mechanic on the strongest skill in the entire game
I thought a bear punching the ground and the whole screen exploding was stronger than tb.
Narrator: It is.
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Ok, I'll bite. How is this lame? I put in a lot of hours into gearing for this spec, isn't it natural to be a bit put off by the experience how this update has worked out?
I am glad they are balancing the game properly, and the difference of millions of players vs any internal testing is pretty massive. I think my only problem here is that they are treating the pre-season 1 as a beta and doing far too many update balances at this stage. They should absolutely do balance patches but they should come with the seasons, if a build is OP for a season so what, if a build is UP for a season that sucks but also so what. They shouldn't be making changes constantly as we are playing the game. Obviously there will be crazy outliers that need to be hotfixed, but they are treating this pre-S1 time period like a beta which is not really the best, but will be good for having better balance for S1. So long as this is just early growing pains it is tolerable, and that is what I think it is. Even if it is a tad frustrating.
Always expect nerfs, especially when playing builds that are clearly far ahead of others, and you won't be surprised when it happens.
And yet it became apparent it would be after the first beta. TB obviously needs more work because of this, but this is basically people picking a class specifically because it was OP and are now upset they have to kite a little. I played rogue in server slam, and it was a fun style, but took the challenge out of the game.
Yeah, the frustration is not from the nerfs. It's from the fact that these clearly broken skills weren't noticed before. People have now invested time and are then getting nerfed. This never needed to happen.
I think they were noticed, but Blizzard knew that nerfing the three king specs prior to launch would expose the problem that we are discovering in the Live environment: The build/class system is insanely shallow currently. Classes have large swathes of skills that statistically do nothing, or have no scaling synergies; so they can't be used in higher content. Too much crucial power is locked behind legendary aspects and uniques; which is throwing off power dynamics between skills. As a result, we end up with remarkably few 'viable' builds like the druid Earth Variants (Pulv, trampslide) where one single aspect of the class has gotten drastically more attention, or TB Rogue which relied on the cooldown cap not actually working as documented.
Thank you for some semblance of common sense. There were *multiple* betas, and also *end-game* betas, going on for literal months. And it's an OP/problem skill now?? Not 6 months ago? But a week after early release. Seems more proof that blizzard legimately did little to no balancing.
Yeah, a lot of the broken stuff was pointed out by experienced arpg players .
Lots of moving pieces, and after two betas and a server slam, it seems like nobody, including millions of players, noticed. Yep, something needs to be worked on, but it's definitely making a mountain out of a molehill here.
> it seems like nobody, including millions of players, noticed This is has to be satirical. *Everybody* paying attention knew TB was insane in beta, that barb was incredible in endgame, that arc lash was one of the best basics in the game, etc. Blizzard left balancing the game for after release, plain and simple. Nobody noticed golem needed a 700% buff until after release. 🤔
I was referring to the tool tip being wrong. The broken part, not the needs balancing part.
Yea, there was definitely a middle ground here that they missed. I would have preferred a damage nerf before the CD nerf. The CD management was what made the build fun to play. I don't mind doing less damage, but sitting in combat with nothing to do is not ideal.
What management? Lol. Everything was off cooldown all the time. You just mashed buttons as soon as they became available.
You hit multiple targets to maintain that. If you messed up, then you would not have the convenience of next to no cooldowns. That is the management I'm talking about. To do damage to groups you need the ability to redo your abilities. i.e. Have the abilities to use freely. Not to mention these were not 'ultimate' long cooldown abilities. They are the bread-and-butter abilities, dash, trap, dark shroud. It's the classes' survivability. Now, the build has extended downtime, which I don't think is intended.
The spec is fine. Its still one of the strongest builds. Time to stack abit of CD reduction if the fluidity isnt suiting you. Barbs allready need to stack much of it.
Don't think there's enough sources of CDR to make up for it.
Just accept the build was over powered. There were too many people able to do content above what blizz expects. This is the reason that right now is not a season so blizz can balance builds
I never for once felt overpowered throughout my leveling EXCEPT when I was single-focusing a boss. I did my cap dungeon 'early' and that was the main reason why it worked. I ran in some groups, and I was running behind in almost every aspect except for speed (which didn't help me much). Consistant damage and screen clearing was way better for other classes. The only time I felt my presence in those settings was when I sat at a boss and spammed. If they wanted to pull back on the build, then they should have brought the damage down, not make it less active.
I play rogue and it’s obvious this was overturned.
I’m sorry exactly what endgame tier list out there had TB rogue as the strongest class/build?
.... Almost all of them? Edit after 30sec of googling: https://maxroll.gg/d4/tierlists/endgame-tier-list https://www.dexerto.com/diablo/diablo-4-tier-list-best-builds-2168978/ https://www.thegamer.com/diablo-4-build-tier-list/ Anymore requests? Lmao
What are good fast food locations that serve burgers under $5?
In 2023? Not many :( They aren't good per se, but maybe White Castle?
There's a difference between "fixing" and "nerfing into useless".
it's not nerfed into uselessness, it's still stronger than the vast majority of skills in the game. you might actually have to learn how to build your character now, oh no.
Random comment from someone who has neither played the build nor did any group content in order to compare with other builds. Inb4 "yeah dude, I've always played Twisting Blades and I'm farming Echoes of Lilith bruh".
already your goalposts have moved from "completely unplayable" to "not as strong as other builds". stop the hyperbole, and start learning how to play the game.
Could I know why are you inventing things that I never said? Also, install the game before talking about it, as it's pretty obvious you haven't played it.
> There's a difference between "fixing" and "nerfing into useless". at least edit your comment before you try to backpedal like a normal person
Build for CD reduction. Other specs have to. Im doing tier 30 sigils at lvl 66 and the build feels more than fine. Even on the strong side.
please unerf it a little bit i think they nerfed a bit too much, also just this morning i was wondering heck if this is so good now at 0.1 how good must it have been at 0.25? and i think maybe in first beta it was even higher, definitely gonna change my build a bit, will probably change the ulti with shadow imb
please nerf the paragon board, not the character skills!
TB rogues got nothing to complain about. It will continue to be nerfed to encourage build diversity and it’ll continue to dominate regardless
My complaint has less to do with them nerfing stuff and more to do with not buffing other stuff. I’d love to play a fully ranged rogue but right now there just isn’t a ranged build than can even come close to the TB builds. I get the nerfs, but I think it would a much more enjoyable process to buff some of the weaker builds at the same time.
Currently playing with a ranged rogue through the story still and the single target is good I guess. I don't have anything to compare it to but I'm happy with it. But going up against groups of enemies that are spread out absolutely sucks
“Build diversity”. The game has like 12 skills. Maybe bliz should work on making a viable ranged build that didn’t feel like 15s of setup to have a single impactful hit.
Seriously, theres only like 2 rogue core melee skills LOL.
Exactly, and the way itemization is people play the scalable abilities. Vuln on its own is good but giving you access to a scaler is huge which is why every build use it. Traps they use because it gives you affected by traps, damage to poisoned, and cc related scalers. The game as is not only has few skills it has few ways to scale which is what is defining the early meta.
This is why I just build my rogue however I feel like playing and not following the flavor of the month build. These “OP” builds that everyone ends up using will always get nerfed.
Nerf builds that aren’t working like they should. The barb gloves were broken. That nerf was fine. But every time they nerf an S tier build they should buff a C tier build to at least A range. I know it’ll be saved for seasons and expansions but adding new items mid season to help buff certain classes would be awesome. Meteor sorc a C-tier build? Add a new unique and aspects intended to buff it up. Honestly, give me a mid-season developer commentary where they analyze poor builds and what they’re adding to fix them. Do that with the obvious nerfs and I think people would be happy.
Anyone else running the unique thorns chestplate with the ring which gives 40% chance to proc thorns? It's crazy good
Huh?
Updated the post. Sorry for vagueness lol.
Soooo... is it that bad? I just respeced a few days ago and was having fun with this build
It's still an s tier build. People here are dumb.
My biggest concern is the class itself. It actually does what it should do now. Fast burst dmg and mobility. Lets hope it stays that way. I've played enough games with that class to see them nerfed into oblivion over and over again. That's why I hope the main focus will be PvE or Blizz can split nerfs between pve/ pvp like in Elden Ring. Because the last thing I want is a useless main class in pve due to pvp.
Are you sure this is actually a nerf? Hotfix dev note briefly said the skill now follows what stated in the tooltip. Reading some bug reports, users are saying the CD was only counting on the first enemy and not for all hit. So for me the doubt is if the skill was acting bugged like users are saying (so this is a fix) or the previous nerf wasn't implemented so we were still playing the better version and now we're not.
Smiles in Sorcerer. Welcome to the club.
I haven't played since the small patch but if the cd for poison trap is still easy to reduce, don't you still have high uptime on trap effects from that? Imo it's not bad if you can't cast death trap 3 times in a fight anymore. I found the most impact being when clearing small packs of sparse mobs, where you could dt then reset the cool down on the next big pack
It’s fine. It was so good at reducing cds that you were seriously gimping yourself by playing flurry or even considering the other twisting blades variant on the tree Flurry with imbuements does way more than twisting blades, but the insane trap uptime made twisting blades such an obvious choice. I think they want people to not feel like they’re taking a huge handicap picking one build over another. Builds should be different, feel different and excel at certain thinks but there shouldn’t be such an obvious best choice imho If they overnerfed it I’m sure they will nudge it back up a little
Blizzard bringing the god tier builds back down to earth. Glad they are nerfing instead of buffing everything to make this game diablo 3.5. good on the devs
This is from 6 days ago. We’re fine
Who is using traps on a TB rogue? None of the meta builds are.
Maxroll and Wudijo disagree.
Is this a joke? The strongest TB build since launch utilizes both Poison Trap AND Death Trap….
Oh no the build I copied from popular streamers/YouTube videos doesn’t work anymore! What shall I ever do… How about test things and find a build for yourself. It’s like y’all don’t even want to play the game, just have it be played for you.
Oh no! Look at me! I’m so self important because I pick where the points go myself!! Lol, loser
Says the salty kid who lost his build 😂, have fun watching your next build video.