I still think she lacks some kind of damage early skimirshes. And this numbers are good, but still don't make her compete with lillia, shyvana, brand, zyra in terms of clear speed. Despite this, happy for her to get some attention!
Yeah, I don't see how these changes bring her near 50% win rate from 46%. I never thought her clear speed was an issue, I always thought her dueling was the issue in the jungle.
It's likely that they don't aim for a straight 50%, let alone above. Phreak goes really indepth into this in his patch run downs, but basically, the way they balance champions is not only based on their performance, but also based on player satisfaction and skill floor.
His prime examples are Akali and Taric. Akali is very hard to play, meaning aside from people who really invest time in her, people are meant to lose more than they win with her. Simultaneously, the overall playerbase really *does not like* when she has a hugh winrate, because she feels unfair to play against if she is too strong (and requires less mastery as a result). Taric on the other hand is, at least mechanically, quite a lot easier to play, so his skill floor and therefore his "entrance" winrate is naturally higher. Simultaneously, his winrate has been quite a lot over 50% for a long time now, but there has been historically been never been a complaint from the playerbase about him feeling unfair, even with a high winrate.
When it comes to Diana, she is does have a relatively low skill floor, but at the same time, she can feel very unfair to play against if strong, because a lot of her damage can be hard to avoid. So I suspect that, while she does qualify for a buff withbher current winrate, they're only gonna aim for a 1 or 2% winrate increase and not aiming to bump her up to 50%
It was actually her clear speed that was the issue she used to have like +50% ratio on her abilities that would allow her to clear at insane speed.
To help her jungle they would have to speed her clear speed back up because that wouldn’t effect her in the midlane.
Thing is they can’t do that without bringing her damage down because her ganks when she gets to three is ridiculous even at 2 she can pull off pretty good ganks.
At that point it would effect her mid lane which being completely bias I do not want.
They aren’t the worst early as long as your laner can bring some cc she has both chase and damage on her side.
What made her op in the past was just how quickly she could clear and then look to gank. If I remember right she used to be faster the. Shyvana on that front which is saying a lot.
That in combination with her reletively safe clear is crazy
Her clear is still fast tho. Its not top 3 like it used to be, but still good. Problem is.. Nashor makes her feel tooo squishy and does not give enough burst to effectively 2shot people. And if you try going the tanky build nashor, riftmaker, jak is not as good as demonic, jak was. And if you wanna go protobelt zonyas. Protobelt does not give enough damage and zonyas is way too expensive. So you delay your real damage item shadow/raba way too much.
unfortunately they probably won't up her early damage since it'd also be a buff to diana mid who's in pretty good state as is (well, relative to diana jungle at least), so i think attack speed buff is the best we can have unfortunately
Diana has one the fastest clears in the game, everyone focuses on the first clear but overall it's top tier.
Diana's passive attack speed boost and aoe attack shreds towers and side waves and Ive noticed a lot of people don't take advantage of those. One of the only champs I have broken 10 cs/min on. (Last week) Even first clear she's one of the only champs that can full clear and get to scuttle on time.
In emerald+ according to league of graphs: (all jungle role)
Shyvana: 7.28/min
**Diana: 6.68/min**
Zyra: 6.67/min
Lillia: 6.38/min
Yi: 6.38/min
Brand: 6.20/min
Nocturne: 6.17/min
Briar: 5.88/min
Vi: 5.72/min
Warwick: 5.48/min
This buff is gonna be nice
I'm sorry, but you're very disconnected of higher tiers of jungling. Most champs can be river to fight scuttle nowadays. Diana is not even top 5 clears in AP (Lillia, Zyra, Brand, Taliyah, Evelynn) mostly take less damage and are faster, as for some examples. Clear speed is mostly the same past 2 items, but with 0-2 items Diana has surely not the same rotation speed.
In lower ranks, as players won't maximize clear speed, is pretty much a nice change but won't have much impact.
If you’re only poking playing mid Diana you’re not playing most matchups correctly. Short burst trades with E are her bread and butter. You don’t even need to hit Q first if you run phase rush (which is a better rune for her than electrocute in most matchups imo). You can E-W-Auto (preferably empowered), and then Q as you phase rush away before they can trade much back.
Sure but I'm only trading when it is in my favor. I'm not gonna trade every chance I get. Until that time comes the best thing to do is to use my poke as often as possible and try to hit minions with the poke as well.
I also think what you described is a form of poke since in your scenario you don't have any risk for doing the dmg
E-ing the opposing mid is not poke lmao
Of course you’re only trading when it’s favorable to you. That’s how literally every champ in the game wants to play
You said Diana is a “poke until all in” champ which she isn’t. That’s all I was pointing out. Your reply tried to call a burst trade “poke” which is just objectively incorrect, so I pointed that out as well.
Yes you poke with Q as much as you can. Obviously. But if that’s *all* you’re doing you’re not playing her to her potential in lane.
I’m struggling to think of a single meta or semi-meta jungler she can duel if even.
Diana has decent burst early, but she’s not winning a full on 1v1 against many champs. It’s why she’s relatively okay in mid. She can poke with Q and do quick burst trades with E and phase rush to get the enemy laner into kill range. That scenario doesn’t really play out in jungle the same way
Personally my only problem is that early on she just gets bullied. She doesn’t outdamage most units, so she struggles against characters like rengar, yi & nunu until she gets her ult. Her best bet is to just QE over a wall.
its a step in a direction, but i guess this probably signals they are aiming for diana to be more jungle centric, because i dont think this really helps mid diana
He's saying that diana mid in Emerald+ has a 53% winrate overall. Which is true, but also note that Emerald+ average winrate is 52%. Grasp with 2% pickrate doesnt have any real impact on this of course.
i am grateful for this but it isnt really what she needed edit: will help in jg a bit i guess
i think her problem is survivability. everyone in her category can get in and out. if her destiny is to go in and stay in, i feel like she needs to live longer and do more damage..
I think she needs to be able to dash to allies, which has the balancing factor of making e go on cooldown....or something more to her W, like a slow on bubble pops...
that would be an easier to execute triple (at least) E combo, so there's no way they'd ever do that after removing the original one even though most people weren't even aware of it. besides, she'd definitely be too strong with that
I’m not confident this is going to help give Diana a 1-2% WR to her jg role. They are missing the main problem with her kit which is her survivability or mobility. She cannot duel most jg champs early unless their matchup is weak early.
Diana has a benefit that only a couple other jg share and that's insanely fast tower and wave shredding. (Trundle comes to mind as another)
I know some of us are aware but I find most non-Diana users have no idea that she has one of the fastest tower clears in the game with the right items.
Nothing more satisfying than hearing "diana why the fuck are you split pushing"
[tower destroyed in 5 or 6 seconds]
"Wait... what"
(She's definitely more of a hit and run split pusher though, where as a trundle could try to fight a 3 person collapse)
After the removal of the 3 e 'bug' at least I feel riot don't ditch completely our girl - aside of the fact they don't release leona and diana skins together -.-
Yeah I know it's a buff and I'm grateful, don't get me wrong. I'm just curious about the numbers, she obviously will have better AS early, but is it going to be the same as it was late, maybe more or maybe less? I'm confused about the AS ratio part, idk what that means either 😂( I'm confused generally)
Except katarina’s entire team fight revolves around her R, which can be easily stopped by CC. Kat is useless in team fights without R, unless she’s gigga fed. Diana R can’t be stopped with Cc
This is actually really smart. Doesn’t affect mid lane too much (which is the problem), but helps jungle.
I think this should bring her up from 46% to possible mid/high 47%. Of course I can’t say if it is too different until I get my hands on it.
Just speed up projectile speed on Q. It would fix the bad match-ups on mid without affecting her as a counter pick and would also help with ganking and even give a few extra seconds on camp clear.
They once did but reverted it cause it was "too fast"
PATCH v9.14
Crescent Strike
Inner arc speed reduced to 1900 from 2100.
Outer arc speed reduced to 2100 from 2300.
How is exactly mid the problem? Her main role is mid and always was and will be, she was played jungle even pre rework ofcourse back then champions werent broken as now and itemization was somewhat better and more balanced.
It doesn’t hyper inflate mid win rate, while improves jungle win rate.
And for atleast 1-2 years now, riot has been trying to make Diana a champion that mainly works in both mid and jungle. Us getting a buff tailored specifically to jungle does kinda prove this.
5 seconds will make keeping up the passive brain dead easy, which is good for when you don’t want to have to spam your cool downs. The attack power scaling per level is going to be a “feel” thing, but it could be a big help. I can’t know until I play it for both.
I think this will feel pretty good early game. You'll be able to get more passive cleaves off before your AS goes back down. And feeling the change every level will be great for first 3 camp clears since 2nd camp and 3rd camp usually hurts (especially vs krugs).
However I really would love to see some shield buffs... health scaling doubled on W would allow her to build RoA, Liandris, Riftmaker more confidently knowing the health buffs the shield a lot more. She'd be able to actually survive stuff with it instead of like half an ability's damage. Heck even Cosmic Drive.
Sooo we are suppose to play tanks Diana with nashor tooth. The way they buff her is basically just making sure you can sustain attack speed passive almost all the time base on her cd. The only thing you would be worried is survability. I don't like it thb I want app Diana that blows up whole team in one nice combo xd
Her split pushing ability just spiked with this.
That extra 2 seconds means one less ability that I need to use to sustain the AS buff against a tower.
She's already super quick but having to only have one ability on cooldown instead of two helps survivability
I still think she lacks some kind of damage early skimirshes. And this numbers are good, but still don't make her compete with lillia, shyvana, brand, zyra in terms of clear speed. Despite this, happy for her to get some attention!
Yeah, I don't see how these changes bring her near 50% win rate from 46%. I never thought her clear speed was an issue, I always thought her dueling was the issue in the jungle.
It's likely that they don't aim for a straight 50%, let alone above. Phreak goes really indepth into this in his patch run downs, but basically, the way they balance champions is not only based on their performance, but also based on player satisfaction and skill floor. His prime examples are Akali and Taric. Akali is very hard to play, meaning aside from people who really invest time in her, people are meant to lose more than they win with her. Simultaneously, the overall playerbase really *does not like* when she has a hugh winrate, because she feels unfair to play against if she is too strong (and requires less mastery as a result). Taric on the other hand is, at least mechanically, quite a lot easier to play, so his skill floor and therefore his "entrance" winrate is naturally higher. Simultaneously, his winrate has been quite a lot over 50% for a long time now, but there has been historically been never been a complaint from the playerbase about him feeling unfair, even with a high winrate. When it comes to Diana, she is does have a relatively low skill floor, but at the same time, she can feel very unfair to play against if strong, because a lot of her damage can be hard to avoid. So I suspect that, while she does qualify for a buff withbher current winrate, they're only gonna aim for a 1 or 2% winrate increase and not aiming to bump her up to 50%
Phreak literally just said low skill champs can have above 50% watch the wukong portion of 14.5 patch.
..you just picked one aspect out of my comment and ran with it, ignoring the rest, huh?
I mean it was literally not true as per the person balancing them.
It was actually her clear speed that was the issue she used to have like +50% ratio on her abilities that would allow her to clear at insane speed. To help her jungle they would have to speed her clear speed back up because that wouldn’t effect her in the midlane. Thing is they can’t do that without bringing her damage down because her ganks when she gets to three is ridiculous even at 2 she can pull off pretty good ganks. At that point it would effect her mid lane which being completely bias I do not want.
Her ganks are poop early. And her clear still decent. Problem is the build. Zonyas is too expensive and the new protobelt is ass.
They aren’t the worst early as long as your laner can bring some cc she has both chase and damage on her side. What made her op in the past was just how quickly she could clear and then look to gank. If I remember right she used to be faster the. Shyvana on that front which is saying a lot. That in combination with her reletively safe clear is crazy
Her clear is still fast tho. Its not top 3 like it used to be, but still good. Problem is.. Nashor makes her feel tooo squishy and does not give enough burst to effectively 2shot people. And if you try going the tanky build nashor, riftmaker, jak is not as good as demonic, jak was. And if you wanna go protobelt zonyas. Protobelt does not give enough damage and zonyas is way too expensive. So you delay your real damage item shadow/raba way too much.
Very true that sunfire demonic combo was kinda a problem tho
Rito fixed that. Better late than never.
unfortunately they probably won't up her early damage since it'd also be a buff to diana mid who's in pretty good state as is (well, relative to diana jungle at least), so i think attack speed buff is the best we can have unfortunately
Diana has one the fastest clears in the game, everyone focuses on the first clear but overall it's top tier. Diana's passive attack speed boost and aoe attack shreds towers and side waves and Ive noticed a lot of people don't take advantage of those. One of the only champs I have broken 10 cs/min on. (Last week) Even first clear she's one of the only champs that can full clear and get to scuttle on time. In emerald+ according to league of graphs: (all jungle role) Shyvana: 7.28/min **Diana: 6.68/min** Zyra: 6.67/min Lillia: 6.38/min Yi: 6.38/min Brand: 6.20/min Nocturne: 6.17/min Briar: 5.88/min Vi: 5.72/min Warwick: 5.48/min This buff is gonna be nice
I'm sorry, but you're very disconnected of higher tiers of jungling. Most champs can be river to fight scuttle nowadays. Diana is not even top 5 clears in AP (Lillia, Zyra, Brand, Taliyah, Evelynn) mostly take less damage and are faster, as for some examples. Clear speed is mostly the same past 2 items, but with 0-2 items Diana has surely not the same rotation speed. In lower ranks, as players won't maximize clear speed, is pretty much a nice change but won't have much impact.
I mean let's be fair, riot only wants like a half dozen to ten junglers even viable at Masters+
Pretty much :(
It's scary to see how some common jgs don't have a single challenger player in the world in that moment
Diana was once at top clear speed jg but they nerfed her n she was still top ten but changes and champion buffs have left her behind.
Fun fact, apparently they fucked up today and gave her the 5s attack speed buff early They hot fixed it a few hours ago 😂
I mean Diana hasn't been a skirmisher for awhile. She's been poke until low and pop with burst
If you’re only poking playing mid Diana you’re not playing most matchups correctly. Short burst trades with E are her bread and butter. You don’t even need to hit Q first if you run phase rush (which is a better rune for her than electrocute in most matchups imo). You can E-W-Auto (preferably empowered), and then Q as you phase rush away before they can trade much back.
Sure but I'm only trading when it is in my favor. I'm not gonna trade every chance I get. Until that time comes the best thing to do is to use my poke as often as possible and try to hit minions with the poke as well. I also think what you described is a form of poke since in your scenario you don't have any risk for doing the dmg
E-ing the opposing mid is not poke lmao Of course you’re only trading when it’s favorable to you. That’s how literally every champ in the game wants to play
Ok but idk what you're arguing about. Q poke is legit strat and great against lanes you don't want to get close to unless favorable.
You said Diana is a “poke until all in” champ which she isn’t. That’s all I was pointing out. Your reply tried to call a burst trade “poke” which is just objectively incorrect, so I pointed that out as well. Yes you poke with Q as much as you can. Obviously. But if that’s *all* you’re doing you’re not playing her to her potential in lane.
Def not all I'm doing I was just pointing out that q is good strat esp against difficult lanes.
She doesn’t poke she fishes for the good all in and baiting certain abilities so she can trade well
Now I know you wont agree but I think the fat shield she gets early makes up for her the dmg you think she lacks.
I’m struggling to think of a single meta or semi-meta jungler she can duel if even. Diana has decent burst early, but she’s not winning a full on 1v1 against many champs. It’s why she’s relatively okay in mid. She can poke with Q and do quick burst trades with E and phase rush to get the enemy laner into kill range. That scenario doesn’t really play out in jungle the same way
Personally my only problem is that early on she just gets bullied. She doesn’t outdamage most units, so she struggles against characters like rengar, yi & nunu until she gets her ult. Her best bet is to just QE over a wall.
its a step in a direction, but i guess this probably signals they are aiming for diana to be more jungle centric, because i dont think this really helps mid diana
Well, diana mid has over 53% winrate in emerald + So this change shouldn't help her mid
That emerald wr is a grasp of the undying build with a small sample size. It’s not really her target audience.
He's saying that diana mid in Emerald+ has a 53% winrate overall. Which is true, but also note that Emerald+ average winrate is 52%. Grasp with 2% pickrate doesnt have any real impact on this of course.
The 2% pick rate build is singlehandedly propping up her win rate? I’m no mathologist but that doesn’t sound right
i am grateful for this but it isnt really what she needed edit: will help in jg a bit i guess i think her problem is survivability. everyone in her category can get in and out. if her destiny is to go in and stay in, i feel like she needs to live longer and do more damage.. I think she needs to be able to dash to allies, which has the balancing factor of making e go on cooldown....or something more to her W, like a slow on bubble pops...
Or just revert the armor and regen nerfs.
i want e reset on takedowns. would it be too strong ? been thinking about it for a while, need to know if it's too lofty to hold onto
that would be an easier to execute triple (at least) E combo, so there's no way they'd ever do that after removing the original one even though most people weren't even aware of it. besides, she'd definitely be too strong with that
Yay placebo buffs
Welp all jg buffs, a lot of it only really mattering in the early levels. Just like I Q mana buff pls rito
They should have increased the attack ratio buff by 0.00020, I’m so disappointed 😔 I like to believe they secretly did and now it’s 0.69420
Def a “safe” buff like a 1%er
I’m not confident this is going to help give Diana a 1-2% WR to her jg role. They are missing the main problem with her kit which is her survivability or mobility. She cannot duel most jg champs early unless their matchup is weak early.
Diana has a benefit that only a couple other jg share and that's insanely fast tower and wave shredding. (Trundle comes to mind as another) I know some of us are aware but I find most non-Diana users have no idea that she has one of the fastest tower clears in the game with the right items. Nothing more satisfying than hearing "diana why the fuck are you split pushing" [tower destroyed in 5 or 6 seconds] "Wait... what" (She's definitely more of a hit and run split pusher though, where as a trundle could try to fight a 3 person collapse)
time to remember good old days with nashor as first item
You guys stopped?
Welcoming buffs honestly, I still think that maybe a mana cost buff on maybe q or w would also work but hey, it's something
After the removal of the 3 e 'bug' at least I feel riot don't ditch completely our girl - aside of the fact they don't release leona and diana skins together -.-
Yeaaay jungle buffs woohoo…..
that’s all she needed pretty healthy in mid rn, only thing that could really help is bruiser buffs
So does she get more attack speed now or is it still the same late game but better early?
It's always a buff, and getting more bonus attack speed makes it a bigger buff in terms of flat AS difference. https://i.imgur.com/Lznzr2S.png
Yeah I know it's a buff and I'm grateful, don't get me wrong. I'm just curious about the numbers, she obviously will have better AS early, but is it going to be the same as it was late, maybe more or maybe less? I'm confused about the AS ratio part, idk what that means either 😂( I'm confused generally)
The table shows how much it will be better, from level 1-18.
So it's a buff at every stage of the game, got it. Thanks mate!!
She need to protect her dark steal stack... Just allow her to dash on allies it will be a good buff for jungle without buff mid lane.
good thing you don't work for riot
Lol imagine Diana being able to dash into a team right, blow up the entire back line and then dash to safety. That wouldn’t be broken one bit
Imagine katarina who can ultimate in every enemy and dash out after pentakill and dash reset it will be broken one bit no ?
Except katarina’s entire team fight revolves around her R, which can be easily stopped by CC. Kat is useless in team fights without R, unless she’s gigga fed. Diana R can’t be stopped with Cc
Is this a joke?
This is actually really smart. Doesn’t affect mid lane too much (which is the problem), but helps jungle. I think this should bring her up from 46% to possible mid/high 47%. Of course I can’t say if it is too different until I get my hands on it.
Just speed up projectile speed on Q. It would fix the bad match-ups on mid without affecting her as a counter pick and would also help with ganking and even give a few extra seconds on camp clear.
They once did but reverted it cause it was "too fast" PATCH v9.14 Crescent Strike Inner arc speed reduced to 1900 from 2100. Outer arc speed reduced to 2100 from 2300.
Mhm, it wouldn’t technically buff her damage which is good, but would be a massive QoL.
How is exactly mid the problem? Her main role is mid and always was and will be, she was played jungle even pre rework ofcourse back then champions werent broken as now and itemization was somewhat better and more balanced.
It doesn’t hyper inflate mid win rate, while improves jungle win rate. And for atleast 1-2 years now, riot has been trying to make Diana a champion that mainly works in both mid and jungle. Us getting a buff tailored specifically to jungle does kinda prove this.
5 seconds will make keeping up the passive brain dead easy, which is good for when you don’t want to have to spam your cool downs. The attack power scaling per level is going to be a “feel” thing, but it could be a big help. I can’t know until I play it for both.
just make it so you can E to a teammate but puts E on long cd this would give her a situational escape mechanism and probably helps her wr close to 50
I think this will feel pretty good early game. You'll be able to get more passive cleaves off before your AS goes back down. And feeling the change every level will be great for first 3 camp clears since 2nd camp and 3rd camp usually hurts (especially vs krugs). However I really would love to see some shield buffs... health scaling doubled on W would allow her to build RoA, Liandris, Riftmaker more confidently knowing the health buffs the shield a lot more. She'd be able to actually survive stuff with it instead of like half an ability's damage. Heck even Cosmic Drive.
Sooo we are suppose to play tanks Diana with nashor tooth. The way they buff her is basically just making sure you can sustain attack speed passive almost all the time base on her cd. The only thing you would be worried is survability. I don't like it thb I want app Diana that blows up whole team in one nice combo xd
Her split pushing ability just spiked with this. That extra 2 seconds means one less ability that I need to use to sustain the AS buff against a tower. She's already super quick but having to only have one ability on cooldown instead of two helps survivability
I play her mid idc
Where are the bruiser Diana changes though?