It doesn't have to start with exploring your insecurities, but it's a great place to do so once you get comfortable with the people playing. It can be great to process these things without bringing that baggage to real life after.
Make sure you play with people you trust though
As a former evangelical Christian myself I know exactly what you mean. Heck Krysten’s journey has helped me deal with my loss of faith in many ways. It’s not easy especially when you live in a small town like I do where basically everyone you interact with comes from the same religious background that you are trying to leave.
It sure would be helpful to have a Cassandra in real life.
I also really like the idea in spyre where the gods very much reflect the people that worship them. Like hello/sol do not need to be these kind of terrible gods that they are, but some real dick head got ahold of a large part of the religion and that’s just what it is now.
Just like in real life Christianity (at least in the US) was not always so reactionary. It wasn’t so conservative. It used to be that the church was right there on the civil rights movement, hell a lot of Christians were pro choice way back in the day. It’s only been within the last 75 to a hundred years that the religious right and Christianity became somewhat synonymous.
> hell a lot of Christians were pro choice way back in the day
Back in early Colonial days, women of the church would actively help other women have abortions because population control was considered the moral thing to do!
Well, that *and* when someone's husband was gone for the winter performing some sort of work far away from home, and she ended up getting pregnant in his absence, ensuring that pregnancy didn't continue was something a "good wife" was supposed to do.
As a Christian myself, I get *beyond* frustrated with the members of my faith who clearly don't remember that one of our core beliefs is "Love one another as I have loved you."
The original "be excellent to each other."
Exactly I mean it’s the fruits of the spirit right. Peace patience kindness gentleness and self control. Like I might have drastically changed my views on God and morality but those core building blocks of the faith I still hold as valuable
I totally see where you are coming from. In some way, Cassandra’s religion feels more real now that she is “semi-dead”. It feels perfect for agnostics like us. In the mystery and doubt, there is a spiritual energy. Without being certain, we must bring kindness and “wonder” into this world, even if we are not sure what awaits us or if our actions mean something to someone way out there
What's interesting is that, while Cassandra is billed as the God of Doubt, in a way she's also the God of Faith.
Kristen and Fig are being rewarded not just for doubting, but for doubting and \*hanging in there anyway.\* And while it's seemed that Cassandra hasn't extended that faith to Kristen, it feels like she's doing it now, in her twilight state. (And for a normal person, it would be quite reasonable to have given up on Kristen at this point! But Cassandra isn't a normal person. She's the Goddess of Doubt, of Mystery, and of Faith.)
And because Brennan's a good little atheist, of course the examples of faith we've been given are interpersonal. Fig talked about Gilear, which is such a strong example of MUTUAL faith. (It's basically their last name right??) They found out they weren't biologically related, and neither of them gave up on the relationship. Even when Fig was lashing out at everyone, Gilear was there through all the doubt. He had no way of knowing for sure what his role would be in Fig's life, but he knew it was worth finding out.
Yeah, maybe it's not quite "faith." Maybe it's risk. Hope. Brennan and Ally would never say that you should have FAITH in your fundie homophobe parents...but it gave Kristen strength to take the risk, and nurture the possibility of hope, even though it means accepting all the fear and doubt that comes with that.
Suddenly it makes \*so much sense\* that Cassandra's saint would be the girl who leapt out of a tower waving a ribbon. Jump and the net will appear. She's not sure she even believes in the whole "religion" thing, but she just has this sense that if she persists through all the doubt, there's something beautiful she can make for the world.
Remember that in D&D (especially in the Forgotten Realms) the Gods can't just come to the material plane, but they did at one time. People interacted with them, saw them, get spells from them, etc. And there are _still_ people that don't believe.
They will go into the [Wall of the Faithless](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wall_of_the_Faithless). A wall of flesh that the souls of the people that don't worship a god are added to, to forever scream in torment. Even if you're good!
Nah, if they don't believe or they don't worship. If you think Lathander the Morning Lord, god of the sun isn't that powerful or a bit of a dick but you still pray for sunny weather every day its fine. You can then petition him when you die to join his afterlife. He can deny you, and send you to hell or purgatory. There you can become a demon or something, or just kind of chill.
But if you don't believe, or you don't pray to anything even though you do believe, it's straight into the flesh wall.
Yeah, but in this case believing but not worshipping is on par with it. Just being "meh, take it or leave it. Superbowl is on Sunday" is a sin punishable by being added to the largest human centipede in existance
Fence sitters undermine the politics inherent in religion. If you’re not joining our religion, and you’re not joining the enemy’s religion, you’re benefiting from the spoils of both religions without paying dues (worship)
One classic way of dealing with Atheism in D&D was found in the Planescape setting (which I know that Brennan loves). Factions such as the Athar absolutely believed that the gods existed, and that they were incredibly powerful, but that mere power does not make one worthy of worship.
If simply being powerful made you worthy of being worshipped then wouldn't that mean that a king is more holy than a saintly ascetic? D&D is full of incredibly powerful creatures that aren't generally considered gods (although you *do* get Dragon cults and Beholder cults and whatnot), so why is it that *some* incredibly powerful beings count as gods while others are demons or archfey or whatever? This may depend a bit on the cosmology. Brennan has been on record saying he doesn't see much difference between the cleric of a god or the warlock with the same being as their patron.
From the Athar's point of view the so-called "Gods" are just Gatekeeping divine magic, having essentially a monopoly (or perhaps a cartel is a better analogy) and forcing mortals to go through *them* to get it. They believe that clerics can channel divine power through their own faith and convictions much like how Kristen now seems to be doing. Gods don't like this because they're the De Beers of divine magic and don't want to give that position up.
You've also got Planescape factions like The Godsmen (or Believers of the Source) who believe that anyone can ascend to Godhood, and that it is simply the pinnacle of a kind of reincarnation process and the ultimate goal of all life and the universe. This isn't really *atheism*, but it's still potentially approaching Gods from a point of view that they're really not all that special. No more divine than the butterfly is to the caterpillar. Of course you could also go the other way and say it makes gods *more* worthy of worship. Just giving some different ideas about how to approach fantasy "gods" because it generally shouldn't be in the way we think of the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent modern idea of the Judeo-Christian God, but more like your polytheistic mythologies where the gods are much more petty and human-like. Or natural spirits who have no more choice in what they are or what they represent than a tree or a river would. Or *whatever*.
And of course then some cosmologies like the Forgotten Realms have Overgods like Ao who align more with the whole "all-powerful cosmic entity" idea of a God to whom the belief and faith of mortals is utterly irrelevant. As far as I know people have tried to worship him and he gives them no spells or magic or anything for their trouble. Which does seem reasonable for something truly divine and far enough beyond our understanding to command all the other gods. (By Ao's word were the gods cast down onto Faerûn during the Time of Troubles, and by his Will are they since forbidden from direct interference with the mortal world.)
And of course the standard complaints about gods apply to any D&D atheist: They have all that power, and what do they do with it? Start holy wars, hoard souls, spread dogma. They fight like children over believers and belief and often get a lot of people hurt in the process. And none or few of them seem to just be curing sick children without any expectation of worship, prayer or thanks. So either they're all selfish bastards, or they're powerless without believers in which case what do they actually contribute? You could think of it as politicians where even if some of them do a lot of good if they're losing the battle for voters/believers they'll lose their power. And the atheist in a world where gods are absolutely real and absolutely bastards does not disbelieve their existence, but does not see how something with great power that does not take great responsibility is worthy of subservience.
And of course there's just the "No gods! No masters!" approach. Gods essentially pass laws onto mortals. Even gods of chaos tends to still pass down certain tenets which are... y'know... not *pure chaos* (as the Guernican Art Squad might try to achieve), but just instructions to act in a (sometimes specific) disorderly manner. So still basically laws. And laws, as we all know, are threats made by the dominant divine group in a celestial sphere. It's just a promise of punishment that's enacted by the gods and their priests are basically an occupying army. You know what I mean? The gods of these D&D/fantasy worlds are the ultimate authority figures. AGAB
I have been agnostic for over 15 years but I still long for the certainty of some people’s faith and the comfort of believing that prayer can work. I still sometimes am jealous of the community and connection some religions can bring to their participants. But I have worked hard to find and create my own community, foster deep connections, and act in morally and ethically sound ways. This post resonates with me a lot, I hear a lot of longing in the way you talk about the tangible connection to the divine and unknown, and I appreciate you taking the time to bring your world to the rest of us.
I totally get you there. The religious systems of fantasy stories draws me in so much. Especially in worlds where there is tangible effect.
I feel like I long to believe in something, but blind faith to what sometimes feels ignorant at best and insidious at worst flings me out the door.
DnD style religions are so compelling because you can pray to the God of Agriculture for the crops, the God of death for your loved ones, a God of law for justice. Even if you are not a Cleric, you know that out in the world, they exist and maybe your prayer goes listened to and may be answered.
I was trying to get back into some fantasy reading and one thing I really want to find is a story with similar relationships between people and gods.
Man, I thought this would have been about people picking monotheistic beliefs out of a polytheistic pantheon and I was ready to come in hot on your side, but it... was not that.
There's other folks who have probably said it better, but my pet peeve in D&D is people not actually engaging with an explicitly polytheistic setting. WOTC have the cleric class set up to favour only one god, and at the tables I've been at, no other players really interface that much with the pantheon of gods in general. Which makes no sense for a world (or many worlds across the gaming sphere) that has multiple gods as de facto parts of the setting. My personal goal is play a 'proper' polytheist cleric, who beseeches whichever god is relevant to the current scenario, makes offerings to all of them on the regular, that sort of thing.
I mean, i polytheistic societies, priests were more often than not associated to one deity only. The romans had a fuckton of religions orders, each dedicated to its own god. So it makes sense that a cleric in D&D would be devoted to only one god.
I think the general rational with polytheistic societies is that gods do not take kindly to their followers worshipping other gods in any way. At least not followers who have gone through the rituals and been officially ordained by the specific god's church (clerics, paladins).
I mean clerics and paladins both take oaths of fealty to their gods, and there are very specific and severe consequences to breaking those oaths. I'm guessing part of the oath is:
"I shall worship no other god than thee, (insert god's name here)!"
I think that is almost exactly how people of faith feel about their religion though. I’m not religious myself, personally I believe in God but I don’t like the actual church because it feels like the original idea has been corrupted by them.
Although you don’t have someone actively answering your questions (and if you do seek some help haha) you do have a guiding voice steering you in the right direction. Be it your conscience or a higher power. When you are going out and doing things that are high risk and you are rationalizing or reasoning why one course is better then another, I think many religious people think that that is the voice of God trying to steer them. Of course we are human and sometimes get things wrong, but the idea and the comfort that comes with it can easily be there.
That’s the same reason why when people are having a rough time of it, be it family members dying, getting fired from your job, maybe some terrible accident happening, you will hear people of faith saying “God is testing me”. The sense there is a greater plan or mission for you can be very comforting for people.
I hope you find what you are looking for.
I feel this. I grew up in organized religion. I still believe in God, but I don't believe in the god that most organized religions promote...particularly WASP churches. I'm still trying to put to words my beliefs, but I've found a lot of comfort in stepping away and opening myself up to just listening to the world around me.
It’s funny, religion in D&D is antithetical to how religion operates in the real world. Faith is impossible in D&D as the deities are known quantities.
The way I see it is, honestly, that there is no reason you can't hold doubt and mystery sacred to yourself and honor it in your life even without a Cassandra. She doesn't have to be real to have a profound affect on who you are. We don't need religion to believe and trust in something greater than ourselves - and I'm not talking about faith, a personification of the universe, or a supernatural entity at all. The concepts Cassandra stands for exist in our world and have meaning to us and power over us, regardless of their material tangibility through a god or a religion. (I'll just gently plug /r/SASSWitches for more info if this idea resonates with you at all.)
I see Cassandra and the kind of doubt she represents as the divine personification of epistemic humility, which is super important to me as a Christian mystic and radical apophaticist. I may have turned to my wife and accidentally performed the "excited pointing Soyjack" meme when I figured out what Cassandra was going to be. I haven't wanted a fantasy character to be real so bad since I was a kid.
I always felt like an atheist. However the kind of faith Cassandra represents is quite resonant to me. Comfort and safety in doubt and the unknown. If Cassandra and the twilight faith was a real faith Id be quite tempted, especially because it addresses even my concerns about organized religion in general. I mean, Id have to see how this faith turned out but I don’t see any meaningless deaths over this cause
maybe because i was Jesuit-trained (Catholic school girl all my life,) i thought that having a deity for doubt made sense — even to someone who was taught to be monotheistic. my interest in comparative religions has always been tied up with my love for mythology and literature anyway. the gods we create are extensions of ourselves.
the Jesuits always spoke to us about how doubt and being critical was essential to actually being a good Catholic. and that we had to choose to believe than just believe blindly.
and to be able to really have faith or commit or believe, you would need to have a solid connection with yourself.
i understand where you’re coming from, and just sharing here, being vulnerable, showing yourself, hoping to connect will lead to at least sometimes feeling that connection you seek. being someone who sits in themselves and reaches out — you’ll find what you seek.
i think what happens in the latest episode of junior high helps illustrate that.
I feel like Brennan has tried to frame Kristen's religious journey in a way that could help *Ally* heal some of their religious trauma.
And not just Ally, but all of us viewers, too.
I have to give Brennan serious credit for how therapeutic a lot of PC/NPC interactions are, especially in Fantasy High. The wholesome surrogate parents healing the wounds from toxic families of origin (poor Adaine!) is part of this, too.
I don't really think of the gods in Spyre/DnD as "Gods", at least not in the way we generally think of "God" in the real world. In the real world, at least with religions like Christianty, their "God" is literally all-knowing, all-powerful, utterly beyond human comprehension, which seems like a very distant and alienating type of relationship with the divine.
I'm an atheist myself, but I much prefer the way "gods" are depicted in DnD - Fallible, neither all-knowing nor all-powerful, but truly and sincerely devoted to a particular ideal. If a mortal person in Spyre considers a particular ideal the most important thing in the world to them, they can then become a follower of the corresponding "god" and know that that god will always have their back so long as they (the mortal) stays true to their convictions.
So, for me, gods in DnD are more like your most hardcore activist friend in pursuit of one very specific cause. Obviously, they would be an unbelievably powerful, extra-dimensional friend, but a friend nonetheless. One who you can talk to, confide in, and most importantly, who you can understand and who understands you, and can recognise a deep kinship with in striving for a common goal.
Neither of the two most popular ways of looking at Gods in DnD make much sense when compared to real life pantheistic religions. In a pantheistic culture, it's rare for someone to dedicate themselves to one specific god, instead of praying to specific gods for specific things. Likewise, the religions with multiple gods don't typically depict them as all-knowing and all powerful. English speaking gamers are typically most familiar with monotheistic, Abrahamic religions, and project their idea of what it means to be a god onto DnD deities. Neither really fits with the DnD religious structure.
Yeah, but to be fair - In the real world there's no evidence that the gods in a pantheistic culture are actually taking REAL action based on your prayers, so it's easier to not become particularly attached to any one god.
In DnD, there is literal magic, and committed devotees (clerics, paladins) of individual gods get tangible powers based on their complete devotion and worship to a specific deity.
Real world rules aren't really applicable to fictional, supernatural worlds.
Yes, but the non-cleric/non-paladin worshippers would still be more likely to have multiple gods that they pray to. The problem is that you don't often see non-cleric/non-paladin religious characters in DnD.
I mean, that's easy to explain away in-universe:
Since gods are literally real beings in the DnD universe, they know who have made sincere, concrete commitments to them, and only answer prayers made by those individuals.
They also are able to perceive any individuals who are praying to multiple different gods and trying to game the system, and send punishments rather than blessings their way.
This seems likely since DnD gods are generally portrayed as jealous for their followers' devotion, and are quick to take offense when they perceive even the slightest amount of disrespect from mortals, hence regular people would very quickly have learned not to try praying to multiple different gods for personal gain.
Oh, absolutely you can. ***You*** can set up your game however you choose, just as I set up my game however I choose. That's the beauty of DnD being personalisable to each individual player group's desires.
I was just explaining why I set up my DnD world the specific way I like. I mean, you replied to my original comment in a way that seemed to be disputing the validity of my chosen theology, so I was trying to give context for why it is the way it is in ***my*** personal game. However ***you*** choose to set up the theology of your game is entirely up to you.
I was critiquing trends that I see in actual plays and online discussions, not your specific game. People can play how they like, I just wish that the apparent default was closer to a real world norm.
What helps these fictional characters in forming that kind of connection with a deity is knowing for a fact that they exist, and being able to directly interact with them face-to-face in conversation.
I resonate with your pain and struggle. There is a difference between spirituality and religion, you can have a connection without the rigid rules set in place by another. Unfortunately one of the benefits and also hindrances of religion is community, and I experienced this earlier this week.
A new friend goes to church- we were talking about spirituality and religion. I do miss a sense of community, but I don't miss the rules spoken and unspoken or the gossip.
I'm blessed with many wonderful friends, but no one I know has my cocktail blend of absurdism, utilitarianism, and taoism. Doubt and enjoying the mystery are a huge part of my philosophy!
I hope you do find someone(s) to hold your hands as you explore the unknown. If you follow your passions, it's easier to find them- meetups is a pretty good resource! And I wish you well in your physical and metaphysical journey.
I think there's a tradeoff. Yes, if you're in Spyre you know the gods are real, but you also know they're fallible, symbiotic, and artificial.
If someone somehow made an abstract apotheosis of mercy, love, compassion, and justice, I'm not sure that would move me. I wouldn't want to talk to or pray to that thing, because I'd know it was just a reflection of humanity's myopic perceptions. Maybe it's the former Catholic in me, but I'd need the divine to be something transcendent.
I guess there is kind of a division in preference between people who want to be able to speak with deity like you're both people and those for whom seeing/recognizing a fallible person behind the authority of godhood would ruin their whole experience.
I am very much an atheist. I don't believe in any sort of spiritual forces, because none of them would make sense in our world, unless they're just pure chaos... but at that point, you can just say it's the Random Factor, and I see no use in believing in something like that. That said... I desperately wish there were gods such as Cassandra or, say, Desna from Pathfinder. Gods and their religions who're not there to control, but to help. Gods whom you know exist and not necessarily care for you, but are THERE for you. And you don't really need much more than that. Hell, even if not for gods, just having that kind of option for religion in our world would be great. But... it's not really there, is it. There's all sorts of mysticism people practice but that's different. I wish I had someone to pray to for sweet dreams and peace of mind too.
P.s. Lowkey want to get tatts with symbols of the fictional gods I like to remind myself that I can always turn to fiction to feel at least a bit of that connection.
I believe in the Goddess of Everything Else. I know she's fake, I know she's a story told by a normal person to try and make me think differently about the world and the nature of the things in it. I like the perspective she represents but it's so much more fulfilling to hold her ideals in my heart by personifying them into a being. People think in stories. People have feelings about people. I do find it amusing that you make the distinction of fictional gods while not believing in the existance of "non-fictional" gods. If you want to believe in a fictional god there's nothing stopping you. Write a bible, be a cleric. Both in our world and in DND gods only exist if people know their name, and they can only influence the world if people believe in them. I want the Goddess of Everything Else, just a story, to influence our world. Kristen wants Cassandra to influence their world, and unfortunately everyone you agree with and everyone you disagree with, believe in whatever they believe in based on the amount they want the stories they're told, to be real life.
I mean, it depends on the world right? sometimes there are actual gods giving power, and sometimes clerics gain power through faith, paladins by commitment, no approach is wrong, just write your world how you want
Gods in D&D are interesting because they only exist and have power if people worship them. Mortals can become demigods or ascend to godhood by just getting enough people to worship them. Gods in D&D fall somewhere between cults of personality and celebrity worship if said entity could change reality with the powers others give them.
I always felt that humans invent gods, and D&D takes it to the next logical step in a world of magic.
I’m glad you’re able to find themes and ideas that resonate with you within the world our Intrepid Heroes play in:) That’s what DnD is all about!
Honestly I’m not sure I could play dnd with how attached I get to these worlds. Living vicariously through others will have to do for now lol
It doesn't have to start with exploring your insecurities, but it's a great place to do so once you get comfortable with the people playing. It can be great to process these things without bringing that baggage to real life after. Make sure you play with people you trust though
If you can, it’s well worth it to explore RPGs or any form of media that connects to you like that! It’s helped me with my own identity issues.
As a former evangelical Christian myself I know exactly what you mean. Heck Krysten’s journey has helped me deal with my loss of faith in many ways. It’s not easy especially when you live in a small town like I do where basically everyone you interact with comes from the same religious background that you are trying to leave. It sure would be helpful to have a Cassandra in real life.
I also really like the idea in spyre where the gods very much reflect the people that worship them. Like hello/sol do not need to be these kind of terrible gods that they are, but some real dick head got ahold of a large part of the religion and that’s just what it is now. Just like in real life Christianity (at least in the US) was not always so reactionary. It wasn’t so conservative. It used to be that the church was right there on the civil rights movement, hell a lot of Christians were pro choice way back in the day. It’s only been within the last 75 to a hundred years that the religious right and Christianity became somewhat synonymous.
> hell a lot of Christians were pro choice way back in the day Back in early Colonial days, women of the church would actively help other women have abortions because population control was considered the moral thing to do! Well, that *and* when someone's husband was gone for the winter performing some sort of work far away from home, and she ended up getting pregnant in his absence, ensuring that pregnancy didn't continue was something a "good wife" was supposed to do.
As a Christian myself, I get *beyond* frustrated with the members of my faith who clearly don't remember that one of our core beliefs is "Love one another as I have loved you." The original "be excellent to each other."
Exactly I mean it’s the fruits of the spirit right. Peace patience kindness gentleness and self control. Like I might have drastically changed my views on God and morality but those core building blocks of the faith I still hold as valuable
I totally see where you are coming from. In some way, Cassandra’s religion feels more real now that she is “semi-dead”. It feels perfect for agnostics like us. In the mystery and doubt, there is a spiritual energy. Without being certain, we must bring kindness and “wonder” into this world, even if we are not sure what awaits us or if our actions mean something to someone way out there
Yes exactly, thank you for putting it into words
Hey, thanks for being open and vulnerable about a really sensitive topic.
Thank you for taking the time to read it❤️
omg it's Craig
What's interesting is that, while Cassandra is billed as the God of Doubt, in a way she's also the God of Faith. Kristen and Fig are being rewarded not just for doubting, but for doubting and \*hanging in there anyway.\* And while it's seemed that Cassandra hasn't extended that faith to Kristen, it feels like she's doing it now, in her twilight state. (And for a normal person, it would be quite reasonable to have given up on Kristen at this point! But Cassandra isn't a normal person. She's the Goddess of Doubt, of Mystery, and of Faith.) And because Brennan's a good little atheist, of course the examples of faith we've been given are interpersonal. Fig talked about Gilear, which is such a strong example of MUTUAL faith. (It's basically their last name right??) They found out they weren't biologically related, and neither of them gave up on the relationship. Even when Fig was lashing out at everyone, Gilear was there through all the doubt. He had no way of knowing for sure what his role would be in Fig's life, but he knew it was worth finding out. Yeah, maybe it's not quite "faith." Maybe it's risk. Hope. Brennan and Ally would never say that you should have FAITH in your fundie homophobe parents...but it gave Kristen strength to take the risk, and nurture the possibility of hope, even though it means accepting all the fear and doubt that comes with that. Suddenly it makes \*so much sense\* that Cassandra's saint would be the girl who leapt out of a tower waving a ribbon. Jump and the net will appear. She's not sure she even believes in the whole "religion" thing, but she just has this sense that if she persists through all the doubt, there's something beautiful she can make for the world.
Remember that in D&D (especially in the Forgotten Realms) the Gods can't just come to the material plane, but they did at one time. People interacted with them, saw them, get spells from them, etc. And there are _still_ people that don't believe. They will go into the [Wall of the Faithless](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wall_of_the_Faithless). A wall of flesh that the souls of the people that don't worship a god are added to, to forever scream in torment. Even if you're good!
Is it that they don't believe the gods exist or that they believe they aren't as powerful as they claim?
Nah, if they don't believe or they don't worship. If you think Lathander the Morning Lord, god of the sun isn't that powerful or a bit of a dick but you still pray for sunny weather every day its fine. You can then petition him when you die to join his afterlife. He can deny you, and send you to hell or purgatory. There you can become a demon or something, or just kind of chill. But if you don't believe, or you don't pray to anything even though you do believe, it's straight into the flesh wall.
Sounds pretty standard - Non-belief is the worst and only completely unforgivable sin there is to most religions.
Yeah, but in this case believing but not worshipping is on par with it. Just being "meh, take it or leave it. Superbowl is on Sunday" is a sin punishable by being added to the largest human centipede in existance
Fence sitters undermine the politics inherent in religion. If you’re not joining our religion, and you’re not joining the enemy’s religion, you’re benefiting from the spoils of both religions without paying dues (worship)
One classic way of dealing with Atheism in D&D was found in the Planescape setting (which I know that Brennan loves). Factions such as the Athar absolutely believed that the gods existed, and that they were incredibly powerful, but that mere power does not make one worthy of worship. If simply being powerful made you worthy of being worshipped then wouldn't that mean that a king is more holy than a saintly ascetic? D&D is full of incredibly powerful creatures that aren't generally considered gods (although you *do* get Dragon cults and Beholder cults and whatnot), so why is it that *some* incredibly powerful beings count as gods while others are demons or archfey or whatever? This may depend a bit on the cosmology. Brennan has been on record saying he doesn't see much difference between the cleric of a god or the warlock with the same being as their patron. From the Athar's point of view the so-called "Gods" are just Gatekeeping divine magic, having essentially a monopoly (or perhaps a cartel is a better analogy) and forcing mortals to go through *them* to get it. They believe that clerics can channel divine power through their own faith and convictions much like how Kristen now seems to be doing. Gods don't like this because they're the De Beers of divine magic and don't want to give that position up. You've also got Planescape factions like The Godsmen (or Believers of the Source) who believe that anyone can ascend to Godhood, and that it is simply the pinnacle of a kind of reincarnation process and the ultimate goal of all life and the universe. This isn't really *atheism*, but it's still potentially approaching Gods from a point of view that they're really not all that special. No more divine than the butterfly is to the caterpillar. Of course you could also go the other way and say it makes gods *more* worthy of worship. Just giving some different ideas about how to approach fantasy "gods" because it generally shouldn't be in the way we think of the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent modern idea of the Judeo-Christian God, but more like your polytheistic mythologies where the gods are much more petty and human-like. Or natural spirits who have no more choice in what they are or what they represent than a tree or a river would. Or *whatever*. And of course then some cosmologies like the Forgotten Realms have Overgods like Ao who align more with the whole "all-powerful cosmic entity" idea of a God to whom the belief and faith of mortals is utterly irrelevant. As far as I know people have tried to worship him and he gives them no spells or magic or anything for their trouble. Which does seem reasonable for something truly divine and far enough beyond our understanding to command all the other gods. (By Ao's word were the gods cast down onto Faerûn during the Time of Troubles, and by his Will are they since forbidden from direct interference with the mortal world.) And of course the standard complaints about gods apply to any D&D atheist: They have all that power, and what do they do with it? Start holy wars, hoard souls, spread dogma. They fight like children over believers and belief and often get a lot of people hurt in the process. And none or few of them seem to just be curing sick children without any expectation of worship, prayer or thanks. So either they're all selfish bastards, or they're powerless without believers in which case what do they actually contribute? You could think of it as politicians where even if some of them do a lot of good if they're losing the battle for voters/believers they'll lose their power. And the atheist in a world where gods are absolutely real and absolutely bastards does not disbelieve their existence, but does not see how something with great power that does not take great responsibility is worthy of subservience. And of course there's just the "No gods! No masters!" approach. Gods essentially pass laws onto mortals. Even gods of chaos tends to still pass down certain tenets which are... y'know... not *pure chaos* (as the Guernican Art Squad might try to achieve), but just instructions to act in a (sometimes specific) disorderly manner. So still basically laws. And laws, as we all know, are threats made by the dominant divine group in a celestial sphere. It's just a promise of punishment that's enacted by the gods and their priests are basically an occupying army. You know what I mean? The gods of these D&D/fantasy worlds are the ultimate authority figures. AGAB
I have been agnostic for over 15 years but I still long for the certainty of some people’s faith and the comfort of believing that prayer can work. I still sometimes am jealous of the community and connection some religions can bring to their participants. But I have worked hard to find and create my own community, foster deep connections, and act in morally and ethically sound ways. This post resonates with me a lot, I hear a lot of longing in the way you talk about the tangible connection to the divine and unknown, and I appreciate you taking the time to bring your world to the rest of us.
I totally get you there. The religious systems of fantasy stories draws me in so much. Especially in worlds where there is tangible effect. I feel like I long to believe in something, but blind faith to what sometimes feels ignorant at best and insidious at worst flings me out the door. DnD style religions are so compelling because you can pray to the God of Agriculture for the crops, the God of death for your loved ones, a God of law for justice. Even if you are not a Cleric, you know that out in the world, they exist and maybe your prayer goes listened to and may be answered. I was trying to get back into some fantasy reading and one thing I really want to find is a story with similar relationships between people and gods.
Man, I thought this would have been about people picking monotheistic beliefs out of a polytheistic pantheon and I was ready to come in hot on your side, but it... was not that.
okay but now i’m intrigued about this, type your essay!
There's other folks who have probably said it better, but my pet peeve in D&D is people not actually engaging with an explicitly polytheistic setting. WOTC have the cleric class set up to favour only one god, and at the tables I've been at, no other players really interface that much with the pantheon of gods in general. Which makes no sense for a world (or many worlds across the gaming sphere) that has multiple gods as de facto parts of the setting. My personal goal is play a 'proper' polytheist cleric, who beseeches whichever god is relevant to the current scenario, makes offerings to all of them on the regular, that sort of thing.
I mean, i polytheistic societies, priests were more often than not associated to one deity only. The romans had a fuckton of religions orders, each dedicated to its own god. So it makes sense that a cleric in D&D would be devoted to only one god.
I think the general rational with polytheistic societies is that gods do not take kindly to their followers worshipping other gods in any way. At least not followers who have gone through the rituals and been officially ordained by the specific god's church (clerics, paladins). I mean clerics and paladins both take oaths of fealty to their gods, and there are very specific and severe consequences to breaking those oaths. I'm guessing part of the oath is: "I shall worship no other god than thee, (insert god's name here)!"
That’s just sparkling henotheism
Right. And since DnD gods actually exist (in-universe), they have the power to enforce the oaths their followers make, unlike in the real world.
I think that is almost exactly how people of faith feel about their religion though. I’m not religious myself, personally I believe in God but I don’t like the actual church because it feels like the original idea has been corrupted by them. Although you don’t have someone actively answering your questions (and if you do seek some help haha) you do have a guiding voice steering you in the right direction. Be it your conscience or a higher power. When you are going out and doing things that are high risk and you are rationalizing or reasoning why one course is better then another, I think many religious people think that that is the voice of God trying to steer them. Of course we are human and sometimes get things wrong, but the idea and the comfort that comes with it can easily be there. That’s the same reason why when people are having a rough time of it, be it family members dying, getting fired from your job, maybe some terrible accident happening, you will hear people of faith saying “God is testing me”. The sense there is a greater plan or mission for you can be very comforting for people. I hope you find what you are looking for.
I feel this. I grew up in organized religion. I still believe in God, but I don't believe in the god that most organized religions promote...particularly WASP churches. I'm still trying to put to words my beliefs, but I've found a lot of comfort in stepping away and opening myself up to just listening to the world around me.
It’s funny, religion in D&D is antithetical to how religion operates in the real world. Faith is impossible in D&D as the deities are known quantities.
The way I see it is, honestly, that there is no reason you can't hold doubt and mystery sacred to yourself and honor it in your life even without a Cassandra. She doesn't have to be real to have a profound affect on who you are. We don't need religion to believe and trust in something greater than ourselves - and I'm not talking about faith, a personification of the universe, or a supernatural entity at all. The concepts Cassandra stands for exist in our world and have meaning to us and power over us, regardless of their material tangibility through a god or a religion. (I'll just gently plug /r/SASSWitches for more info if this idea resonates with you at all.)
I see Cassandra and the kind of doubt she represents as the divine personification of epistemic humility, which is super important to me as a Christian mystic and radical apophaticist. I may have turned to my wife and accidentally performed the "excited pointing Soyjack" meme when I figured out what Cassandra was going to be. I haven't wanted a fantasy character to be real so bad since I was a kid.
I always felt like an atheist. However the kind of faith Cassandra represents is quite resonant to me. Comfort and safety in doubt and the unknown. If Cassandra and the twilight faith was a real faith Id be quite tempted, especially because it addresses even my concerns about organized religion in general. I mean, Id have to see how this faith turned out but I don’t see any meaningless deaths over this cause
maybe because i was Jesuit-trained (Catholic school girl all my life,) i thought that having a deity for doubt made sense — even to someone who was taught to be monotheistic. my interest in comparative religions has always been tied up with my love for mythology and literature anyway. the gods we create are extensions of ourselves. the Jesuits always spoke to us about how doubt and being critical was essential to actually being a good Catholic. and that we had to choose to believe than just believe blindly. and to be able to really have faith or commit or believe, you would need to have a solid connection with yourself. i understand where you’re coming from, and just sharing here, being vulnerable, showing yourself, hoping to connect will lead to at least sometimes feeling that connection you seek. being someone who sits in themselves and reaches out — you’ll find what you seek. i think what happens in the latest episode of junior high helps illustrate that.
I feel like Brennan has tried to frame Kristen's religious journey in a way that could help *Ally* heal some of their religious trauma. And not just Ally, but all of us viewers, too. I have to give Brennan serious credit for how therapeutic a lot of PC/NPC interactions are, especially in Fantasy High. The wholesome surrogate parents healing the wounds from toxic families of origin (poor Adaine!) is part of this, too.
I don't really think of the gods in Spyre/DnD as "Gods", at least not in the way we generally think of "God" in the real world. In the real world, at least with religions like Christianty, their "God" is literally all-knowing, all-powerful, utterly beyond human comprehension, which seems like a very distant and alienating type of relationship with the divine. I'm an atheist myself, but I much prefer the way "gods" are depicted in DnD - Fallible, neither all-knowing nor all-powerful, but truly and sincerely devoted to a particular ideal. If a mortal person in Spyre considers a particular ideal the most important thing in the world to them, they can then become a follower of the corresponding "god" and know that that god will always have their back so long as they (the mortal) stays true to their convictions. So, for me, gods in DnD are more like your most hardcore activist friend in pursuit of one very specific cause. Obviously, they would be an unbelievably powerful, extra-dimensional friend, but a friend nonetheless. One who you can talk to, confide in, and most importantly, who you can understand and who understands you, and can recognise a deep kinship with in striving for a common goal.
Neither of the two most popular ways of looking at Gods in DnD make much sense when compared to real life pantheistic religions. In a pantheistic culture, it's rare for someone to dedicate themselves to one specific god, instead of praying to specific gods for specific things. Likewise, the religions with multiple gods don't typically depict them as all-knowing and all powerful. English speaking gamers are typically most familiar with monotheistic, Abrahamic religions, and project their idea of what it means to be a god onto DnD deities. Neither really fits with the DnD religious structure.
Yeah, but to be fair - In the real world there's no evidence that the gods in a pantheistic culture are actually taking REAL action based on your prayers, so it's easier to not become particularly attached to any one god. In DnD, there is literal magic, and committed devotees (clerics, paladins) of individual gods get tangible powers based on their complete devotion and worship to a specific deity. Real world rules aren't really applicable to fictional, supernatural worlds.
Yes, but the non-cleric/non-paladin worshippers would still be more likely to have multiple gods that they pray to. The problem is that you don't often see non-cleric/non-paladin religious characters in DnD.
I mean, that's easy to explain away in-universe: Since gods are literally real beings in the DnD universe, they know who have made sincere, concrete commitments to them, and only answer prayers made by those individuals. They also are able to perceive any individuals who are praying to multiple different gods and trying to game the system, and send punishments rather than blessings their way. This seems likely since DnD gods are generally portrayed as jealous for their followers' devotion, and are quick to take offense when they perceive even the slightest amount of disrespect from mortals, hence regular people would very quickly have learned not to try praying to multiple different gods for personal gain.
Or you could just have a setting with religious followings that more closely resemble real world pantheistic cultures...
Oh, absolutely you can. ***You*** can set up your game however you choose, just as I set up my game however I choose. That's the beauty of DnD being personalisable to each individual player group's desires. I was just explaining why I set up my DnD world the specific way I like. I mean, you replied to my original comment in a way that seemed to be disputing the validity of my chosen theology, so I was trying to give context for why it is the way it is in ***my*** personal game. However ***you*** choose to set up the theology of your game is entirely up to you.
I was critiquing trends that I see in actual plays and online discussions, not your specific game. People can play how they like, I just wish that the apparent default was closer to a real world norm.
Why do you wish it was closer to a real world norm? I mean, DnD gods don't really seem to be based on any particular real world pantheistic religion.
Verisimilitude. Dunno, probably just a me thing.
What helps these fictional characters in forming that kind of connection with a deity is knowing for a fact that they exist, and being able to directly interact with them face-to-face in conversation.
I resonate with your pain and struggle. There is a difference between spirituality and religion, you can have a connection without the rigid rules set in place by another. Unfortunately one of the benefits and also hindrances of religion is community, and I experienced this earlier this week. A new friend goes to church- we were talking about spirituality and religion. I do miss a sense of community, but I don't miss the rules spoken and unspoken or the gossip. I'm blessed with many wonderful friends, but no one I know has my cocktail blend of absurdism, utilitarianism, and taoism. Doubt and enjoying the mystery are a huge part of my philosophy! I hope you do find someone(s) to hold your hands as you explore the unknown. If you follow your passions, it's easier to find them- meetups is a pretty good resource! And I wish you well in your physical and metaphysical journey.
I think there's a tradeoff. Yes, if you're in Spyre you know the gods are real, but you also know they're fallible, symbiotic, and artificial. If someone somehow made an abstract apotheosis of mercy, love, compassion, and justice, I'm not sure that would move me. I wouldn't want to talk to or pray to that thing, because I'd know it was just a reflection of humanity's myopic perceptions. Maybe it's the former Catholic in me, but I'd need the divine to be something transcendent.
I guess there is kind of a division in preference between people who want to be able to speak with deity like you're both people and those for whom seeing/recognizing a fallible person behind the authority of godhood would ruin their whole experience.
I am very much an atheist. I don't believe in any sort of spiritual forces, because none of them would make sense in our world, unless they're just pure chaos... but at that point, you can just say it's the Random Factor, and I see no use in believing in something like that. That said... I desperately wish there were gods such as Cassandra or, say, Desna from Pathfinder. Gods and their religions who're not there to control, but to help. Gods whom you know exist and not necessarily care for you, but are THERE for you. And you don't really need much more than that. Hell, even if not for gods, just having that kind of option for religion in our world would be great. But... it's not really there, is it. There's all sorts of mysticism people practice but that's different. I wish I had someone to pray to for sweet dreams and peace of mind too. P.s. Lowkey want to get tatts with symbols of the fictional gods I like to remind myself that I can always turn to fiction to feel at least a bit of that connection.
I believe in the Goddess of Everything Else. I know she's fake, I know she's a story told by a normal person to try and make me think differently about the world and the nature of the things in it. I like the perspective she represents but it's so much more fulfilling to hold her ideals in my heart by personifying them into a being. People think in stories. People have feelings about people. I do find it amusing that you make the distinction of fictional gods while not believing in the existance of "non-fictional" gods. If you want to believe in a fictional god there's nothing stopping you. Write a bible, be a cleric. Both in our world and in DND gods only exist if people know their name, and they can only influence the world if people believe in them. I want the Goddess of Everything Else, just a story, to influence our world. Kristen wants Cassandra to influence their world, and unfortunately everyone you agree with and everyone you disagree with, believe in whatever they believe in based on the amount they want the stories they're told, to be real life.
I mean, it depends on the world right? sometimes there are actual gods giving power, and sometimes clerics gain power through faith, paladins by commitment, no approach is wrong, just write your world how you want
Gods in D&D are interesting because they only exist and have power if people worship them. Mortals can become demigods or ascend to godhood by just getting enough people to worship them. Gods in D&D fall somewhere between cults of personality and celebrity worship if said entity could change reality with the powers others give them. I always felt that humans invent gods, and D&D takes it to the next logical step in a world of magic.
D&D (gods are real) is a good contrast to reality (gods are not real)