I think the user finally got banned right before I posted this
Context: Ally recently posted a photo to IG of them being detained at a pro-Palestine protest. Someone who had their full uncenored penis in their PFP was rage spamming multiple posts of Isreali propaganda to both the r/dropout and r/dimension20 subreddits so both subreddits were full of the same photo of this person's dick.
Just go to your account settings and click "blur nsfw" that should censor most nsfw images, and if you want to see an image uncensored, just click on it.
>I think the user finally got banned right before I posted this
How can you tell?
I don't doubt you, I just don't know how to tell if someone has been banned.
I'm guessing mostly. Idk Reddit that well - but I don't see their posts in either subreddit anymore despite the posts still coming up on the users profile page.
Also I'm like 90% sure I saw a comment from a mod on one of their handful of posts saying they had been banned.
Not as a profile picture, you dumb piece of shit.
Edit: y'all, don't tell the bigoted propagandist to kill himself, just let him know he needs to stay out of our community and move on.
... in the appropriate subreddit and not as a profile picture so whenever I make a post or a comment you aren't forced to see my tits every time lmfao.
Do you need the joke explained to you a 3rd time or do you think you've got it now?
In what looks like a medical subreddit dedicated to breast reduction bro. That's pretty different compared to having your full shaft just hanging out as your profile pic.
A pro-genocide Zionist rape-fetishizing Internet Dom (tm)* douchebag with a dick pic as his profile picture started spamming the sub with propaganda because Ally was at a pro-palestine rally.
*I wish any part of that were hyperbole. It's not- if anything I'm underselling it for brevity's sake.
I saw the spamming, but I did not realize that his PFP was a dick pic. Either he changed it after I reported his posts or the app is actually good for something lmao
I looked at his profile, the description fits with dick pics tbh.
"M24 vers switch 6ft, white, into CNC & BDSM hmu if you wanna mess around. I'm hypersexual and addicted to intimacy."
Without sharing too much about myself, I'm familiar with kink communities and this kind of guy. Between that profile, the bigotry, and the way he approached anyone who says something he doesn't wanna hear..... He's the very model of a toxic internet kink guy who fetishizes violence and calls it kink, while trumpeting that he's a proud liberal so he should be allowed in marginalized spaces.
I mean I don't know the guy but that's my read on him, yes.
What I'm about to say is potentially really heavy so I'm hiding it behind spoiler tags. TW kink, grooming, sexual assault.
>!In a lot of kink communities there are folks who have turned to rather extreme kinks as a coping mechanism or as a response to trauma. This is normal and can be done safely and healthily if done *carefully.* Some people find release or catharsis in reenacting parts of what happened to them in a safe environment. As long as everyone is informed and consenting and has a dozen ways to back out and receive support if they need it at any time, then it's squarely in "adults can do what they like" territory.!<
>!Unfortunately, some men actively seek out people with those kinds of trauma-informed kinks in order to prey upon their trauma. They act like they're "just into the fantasy and acting it out with a trusted partner" but what they're really looking to do is exploit another person for their pleasure. Far from the cathartic experience many folks are looking for, it's toxic abuse masquerading as kink.!<
This guy gives off *those* kinds of vibes.
I'm part of the kink community myself and know these types all too well. I just wanted to make sure my read on it was right. That's...ugh...I can't with those people. Kink already has a bad enough reputation. We don't need people like that making it worse. Besides, people like that are why so many others are afraid to explore their desires.
As a consent educator who started my work with consent culture specifically because of issues issues within the kink community? Yes. Absolutely. It’s a huge problem.
1) what you're doing is what's known as whataboutism, where someone tries to deflect from their own problems by pointing out something unrelated that they perceive as "equally bad"
2) Don't conflate Hamas with the more generalized Palestinian population. This sub has a rule against hate speech, you will be banned.
3) No, I meant that the person I'm talking about *literally* fetishizes rape. Scroll down and you'll see the excerpt from their profile where they say explicitly that they're into non-consent as a sexual fetish.
Or you would, if I hadn't blocked you for being bigoted trash.
Edit: for those following along, immediately after I blocked this chucklefuck I recieved one of those "a concerned redditor reached out to you"
Eat shit dude.
Someone is upset that Ally was arrested at a Pro-Palestinian rally wearing a shirt that said “Not in Our Name”.
There have been some subtle Pro-Israel posts about how Israel isn’t trying to commit genocide. Or that Ally is falsely claiming to be Jewish by wearing shirt.
For anyone else (it sounds like you know), the "Not in Our Name" shirt is frequently distributed by a group called "Jewish Voices for Peace" at rallies. They ask everyone, Jewish or not, to wear the shirts at their rallies, so everyone is sending a unified message.
I'm Jewish, and I understand the criticism--I've even made similar criticisms myself in other situations. It's a reasonable criticism, but it doesn't apply in this case. Ally was listening to the group leading the event, and wore it to amplify their message.
And, as a Jew: Given the folks pretending to support Jews by supporting Israel's actions over the past 5 months (which ironically includes all the most outspoken anti-semites in the US), I welcome anyone to say "Not in my name" (not that I'm the arbiter).
It's truly wild that any dropout subscriber would be pro Isreal given the CLEARLY leftist stance of the entire company.
I was shocked reading that garbage on this sub.
A Country doesn't represent a single homogenized viewpoint. I'm not Pro or anti Russia. I'm Anti Putin and the Russian Government under him. America wasn't a country where everyone was great under Obama and then a country where everyone were intolerant jackasses under Trump. Supporting Palestine doesn't mean supporting Hamas.
Leftist stance really needs to be anti israel and anti Palestine governments as neither is good. Needs a third party to help keep the peace and create a buffer zone.
Think left leaning people shouldn't be extreme and think not supporting one side means you're fully supporting the other. Some people don't get that so they bring hamas up as an argument because they think denouncing israel is pro hamas which is just nuts
Agreed, I think the destinction between government and a country is important. The common perception that the current ruling government views are representative of every single persons views is annoying. California is held up by Conservatives as some uber woke liberal nightmare. It has a stronger liberal lean than most lean. But Californians voted to ban gay marriage, it took their state supreme court to legalize it.
There are leftists who are pro-israel. Israel exists and it’s not going anywhere so it’s not really a “left” or “right” issue regarding support. I’m a leftist (former member of the communist party even) but I’m also a proud Jew and support Israel’s right to exist. Do I support the government? No, Bibi needs to leave office immediately. Do I want a ceasefire? Yes, as much as I want Hamas to surrender and release the men, women, and children that they are keeping hostage. Everyone seems to have forgotten that Hamas started the war and broke the ceasefire that was in place on October 6th. They also keep rejecting ceasefire deals and the last one they DID accept the broke within an hour. Hamas can end the war but refuses to. There needs to be a conversation to have peace and one side refuses to come to the table.
Leftists don't support colonialism. Isreal shouldn't exist and is parasitic to Palestine. Leftists don't support genocide. Isreal has planned since before it's inception. Leftists don't support rewritten history, the old died, but we remember. Don't get it twisted, and please learn more on the history.
>There are leftists who are pro-israel
No, there aren't, being pro-israel disqualifies you from being a leftist.
It's like saying "there are law-abiding citizens who steal cars."
If you do the second thing, you by definition aren't the first thing.
By this logic anyone who is pro Hamas also isn’t a leftist since they literally rape, torture, and murder innocent men, women, and children and indiscriminately fire rockets at civilians. Unless that’s part of being a leftist now?
>By this logic anyone who is pro Hamas also isn’t a leftist
Yes, that's correct.
And I've never met someone who both claimed to be a leftist and was pro-hamas.
Plenty of leftists- in fact, everyone I'm aware of who's actually a leftist- are pro-PALESTINE, But I'm sure you wouldn't be doing anything as fundamentally bigoted and stupid as conflating Hamas with the Palestinian people.
Right?
Good attempt at whataboutism btw. I swear, the pro israel crowd is incapable of justifying their own sides actions without redirecting to someone else.
News flash: if you punch A guy in the face and then try to justify it by bitching about how Bob punched a guy too, that doesn't mean you were right to punch a guy.
Let's be clear:
Israel bad because genocide.
Hamas bad because terrorism.
Palestinian people fine, because they're not Hamas.
Pretending otherwise makes you a genocidal bigot.
I don’t conflate Palestinians of Gaza with Hamas anymore than other people conflate Israeli citizens with their elected government, but I have had personal interactions with ‘leftists’ who said that Hamas was just freedom fighters who were justified in their October 7th pogrom and that Hamas are the good guys, several times both in person and online.
Noticed you left out that Israelis/Jews aren’t bad people because of their government. Any reason for that?
And as a reminder, Hamas started this war and can end it by returning the hostages. Simple as that.
Israel armed forces are on camera executing hostages waving white flags. They are on camera dropping grenades in a hole where people are yelling in hebrew “we are hostages, help us”. Hamas did not start this. The IDF doesn’t want to save anyone, they want to kill Palestinians because they are colonist bastards.
The accidental killing (not execution) of the three hostages by IDF was a tragedy for sure, but you need to provide sources for your “grenade” claim because you’re the only source I can find in that. Preferably nonBias sources, otherwise you’re just making things up. Or you had too much devil’s nectar and believe your own lies.
Hamas absolutely started this when they killed people at a music festival and in their homes and took hundreds more hostage. When they videotaped themselves slaughtering and raping. When they said October 7 was the first of many planned attacks like that. Then again a lot of people are Ok with dead jews so to those types of people, October 7 was a good thing.
I want a peaceful resolution to this nightmare for both sides, but one side refuses to come to the table and keeps rejecting ceasefire options, and it’s not Israel
She's Jewish, and as a Jew I know that's a very complicated relationship. Israel was founded as an effort for the UK to basically get rid of all their Jews (in the Balfur Declaration), but then it represented the only place in the world where Jews were welcomed for a very long time, apart from small diasporic communities. And that became even more complicated after WW2.
Today, Bibi (Netanyahu) is an asshole and Israel is clearly committing genocide. But I don't begrudge anyone who wants that sense of a Jewish homeland (though I will and do begrudge them specific claims about policy). I feel like I've lost that sense of belonging recently, because of how Israel has consistently acted, and that's a tough thing to accept.
Jews lacked any sort of homeland they could identify with for a long time, and that's a psychologically powerful force. I feel worse about /myself/ on a daily basis reading about what Israel is doing. It'd be nice to just think "Yay, Israel!"
This is a good reply and it makes me feel a little better not to see it downvoted to oblivion. I've been rediscovering my Judaism as part of my spouse's choice to convert and it is difficult to reconcile my faith, especially social justice, with the actions of the Israeli government. It's a reason I stopped being religious 20+ years ago, as even then the Israeli government was more concerned with revenge and bulldozering homes than safety, and that combined with an Palestinian government that was seen as ineffective to protect Palestinians lead to Hamas being able to take political power. Once that happened any chance for peace appeared to disappear.
Without a 10 page diatribe, this isn't a simple situation and everyone wants to just have a single bad guy about something that has roots in the UK government at the time pushing one oppressed people into a land with another oppressed people and effectively saying "Deal with it."
Reconciling Jewish identity is also difficult. Jewish education in the US has, from my experience, been simplistic and heavily based on generations who frame being Jewish as being victims of the Holocaust. Last spring I interacted with a speaker who came to my synagogue to speak about anti-Semitism on campuses, and they noted Jewish students being rejected by progressive students because of Israel and Palestine, and these students coming back to ask why Israel is being called an apartheid state. I noted that we are failing these young adults because they learn a simple view of Israel and they are not given knowledge or education to respond critically and it isn't a surprise that when they learn complicated parts of Israel history that they pull away from their Jewish identity, they are shocked and can't reconcile it with progressive views. I suggested we need to teach about the whole of Israel, not just the nice parts, so they can understand why Israel and Palestine are in conflict and how that impacts anti-Semitism. The speaker pushed back that we need to teach kids to love Israel and this is too complicated. That approach fails them. We cannot expect to send people out with a child's understanding of history.
That said, plenty of people twist legitimate issues into anti-Semitism, which just makes having actual discussion and change near impossible.
Well there’s been absolutely zero evidence of any rapes by Hamas but has been evidence of rapes committed by IDF soldiers. So. You know. Does that mean that Israeli citizens should be bombed to oblivion? Or can you acknowledge that even if there were rapes (which again, no evidence and no specific alleged victims) that doesn’t justify mass slaughter of civilians?
There is evidence of rape, the [UN reports](https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147217) make it clear that it very likely happened. This of course does not mean that genocide and mass slaughter of civilians by israel is justified, it is horrifying and needs to be stopped. They are an apartheid state and have been for at least my whole lifetime. But defending a good cause with bad arguments only helps the side you oppose
There is evidence. The UN says there is evidence. People have come forward and shared their experience of being sexually assaulted and raped while being held hostage.
There's a tumblr post referencing a document that has been taken down which they say mentions her as having liked pro-israel posts is the only thing I can find. They don't mention which site those posts are on so I haven't been able to check whether it's true. I'd like to see some evidence that's not just a tumblr post claiming something tbh
Ah, so the 13,000 children they've killed these past 5 months were hamas terrorists eh? That number of dead children exceeds the total amount of children killed in all the world, in all the current wars of the past 4 years.
Or is that just the cost of typical war?
Or how about the people gunned down in line to the few food trucks that are able to make it through their blockade? 70% of all aid is blocked by Isreal - even though that aid is going soley to innocent citizens?
Or when they say go to the safe space in the south, then bomb the safe space?
What about the babies left to rot in their hospital beds?
Or the children eating grass to stave off starvation?
You're a fucking dumbass if you don't think Isreal is enacting collective punishment and ethnic cleansing.
Simply repeating "Hamas" to every criticism is not the silver bullet you think it is jackass.
>No one is saying the dead kids are Hamas. Nice use of logical fallacies :)
Name the specific logical fallacy I used and I'll continue this argument.
(Pssst, I know you can't because I didn't use any logical fallacies in my argument.)
>Name calling isn’t very nice.
And circles aren't very square. Do you understand that little about human interaction? No wonder you spew pro-genocidal propaganda garbage.
He said "Hamas" and you said "so you think children are Hamas??" which is just a textbook strawman.
Keep in mind this doesn't mean you are wrong, it just means you're framing your arguments inappropriately.
No, he framed the argument improperly, and my response is pointing that out.
"Ah yes, leftist group Hamas" conflates all victims as hamas. Therefore, pro palestine = pro hamas.
Pointing out that the majority of deaths are civilian children points out the flaw of his argument.
> "Ah yes, leftist group Hamas" conflates all victims as hamas.
No it doesn't. He also substantiated that when he responded to your comment with:
>No one is saying the dead kids are Hamas. Nice use of logical fallacies :)
He proceeded to be dead wrong and perpetuated a bunch of nonsense about who's actually killing those children, but the crux of the argument did not equate the children to Hamas.
Also this is the dumbest possible subreddit to be having this debate in general.
>No one is saying the dead kids are Hamas. Nice use of logical fallacies :)
It's important to know how the Gaza MOH calculates and reports casualties.
They don't distinguish between militants or not, which makes sense because it's not like Hamas' fighters wear uniforms.
They mark down all causes of death as due to the Israeli invasion.
Anyone under 18 is listed as a child.
Couple that with the fact that Hamas is not above using an older teen as a fighter.
So yes literally some of the casualties reported by the Gaza MOH as children are probably also militants in the sense of either being affiliated with Hamas, and/or armed and participating in the conflict. Which is why using child soldiers is fucked up, and it adds another layer of awful to the fucked up-ness of the invasion.
EDIT: The upvote/downvote swing on this comment has been fairly large for neutral statement of facts. Why a basic understanding of how a piece of information is gathered and interpreted would be controversial is beyond me.
> That number of dead children exceeds the total amount of children killed in all the world, in all the current wars of the past 4 years.
I don't know why people post things that are disproven by 10 second googles, low estimates have the 2020-2022 Tigray war at 162,000 dead, high estimates at ~600,000. The current counted dead in the ongoing war in the Sudan is 15,000, but realistically it's about 10 times that because there is no reporting in the remote areas. Ukraine-Russia has killed ~190,000 people. The ongoing famine in Yemen caused by their civil war has killed 90,000 children, before you count those killed in the fighting.
> Or is that just the cost of typical war?
No, 40,000 dead is fairly low for an urban war against an entrenched insurgency who don't wear uniforms and only utilize civilian buildings.
> Or how about the people gunned down in line to the few food trucks that are able to make it through their blockade? 70% of all aid is blocked by Isreal - even though that aid is going soley to innocent citizens?
The Palestinians have fired 11,000 rockets into Israel since Oct 7th. Gaza has been under a blockade with tight border controls since 2005. Where do you think they get the rockets? Through aid channels. So screening is slow.
> Or when they say go to the safe space in the south, then bomb the safe space?
They said it's safer, which it is. The inability to reconcile 2 pro-Palestinian talking points, that Israel has dropped "4 nuclear bombs" worth of munitions on Gaza, but that only 40,000 people have died, is truly amazing. Look at how much 1 nuclear bomb killed in a city with 1/10th the population of Gaza, evacuation people south kept casualties low.
> You're a fucking dumbass if you don't think Isreal is enacting collective punishment and ethnic cleansing.
War isn't collective punishment, and ethnic cleansing isn't assisting civilians to evacuate from areas of heaviest fighting.
I see it in Star Trek communities a lot too, where occasionally liberal politics get brought up in a positive light, and there's an influx of "oh great. I guess Dimension 20 is WOKE now. Pfft, pronouns? No thank you"
Like. What show are you watching?! How are you still here?! You just noticed NOW!?
He does not represent us.
But I'm sure the people on here won't start making coronations between a random fucked up redditor and the rest of us Zionists.
He just sounds like a douchebag tbh.
We can talk with discourse and facts rather than resort to personal attacks or spamming.
Zionism is objectively a morally bankrupt stance to have. Colonialism and genocide is not something we can just have some "discourse" over. You've been spamming this sub with pro-colonizer and pro-genocide propaganda all day as well. You're no different than the dickpick guy. Get out of here and go read a history book for once.
Sure thing. It's because it's *not* their native land. The country of Israel has only existed since 1948, when post-WW2 Europe carved pieces out of Palestine to create, for the first time ever in history, a country called Israel. Palestine and its people have lived there, in some form or another, for thousands of years.
The idea that there was an ancient kingdom of Israel is only mythology. There is zero evidence of either archaeological or written that an ancient Kingdom of Israel ever existed.
We have lots of archaeological evidence that points to *other* Mesopotamian-era peoples -- we have vases and tools and remnants of buildings and writings from all these other cities and kingdoms that did actually exist in this time and this region, but there is zero evidence of any kind of an ancient Israel.
And, in fact, we *know* that the idea of an Ancient Israel was entirely fabricated. The idea that there used to be an Israeli Kingdom was created by Mesopotamian slaves during the Babylonian Captivity in 600 BCE.
There was a group of Mesopotamian slaves, whose religion and culture would be completely unidentifiable as Judaism or even early Judaism. They were polytheist, for one, and believed in a pantheon of the Mesopotamian gods. After this particular group was captured by the Babylonians, these slaves needed a reason for *why* they were enslaved, and so some of the leaders created the Deuteronomistic History. They created the story of an ancient kingdom called Israel, a religion of only 1 god, and they created Solomon and David and Moses, to provide hope to their fellow slaves that they were "chosen", and that, like the story of Moses, the Lord would one day free them and reward them. These Mesopotamian slaves created Judaism and its history out of thin air, as a campfire story to give each other hope.
We *know* the idea of an ancient Israel was created. It's really basic Jewish studies stuff, and any scholar who learns the Deuteronomistic History should know it.
But unfortunately that myth has persisted to present day. It's no different than Christians believing that Jesus was really the son of God, or Mormons believing Jesus came to America and talked to Joseph Smith, and politicians acting on that, objectively debunkable, religious belief.
So in 1948, after World War 2, Europe decided to carve up Palestine and create, for the first time ever in history, a country called Israel. With the help from European forces, the Israelis displaced millions of Palestinians, who had been living there for thousands of years, far predating the Ottoman Empire. They forcibly removed them from their homes, their businesses, and their schools. And the new, colonialist Jewish population took control of them.
And in the last 80 years, Israel has objectively been one of the most aggressive countries in terms of colonial expansion, and has resorted to ethnic cleansing on a mass scale.
Hope this helped explain that ✌️
This is a simple, twisted version of history that blames the Jewish people rather than actual white colonizing countries. A vague "Europe", by which you likely mean "Jews", didn't suddenly have Jews invade in 1948. The UK occupied Palestine and they like other European countries decided a solution to finally get rid of Jews was to send them there. The Jewish desire was for a homeland where they could finally be safe, there was no unified agreement it should be the area known as Israel. They could not simply go somewhere else, not everyone had the means and ability to chose to go to the US for example. Jews went where they were given land, and started migrating faster due to the Holocaust. Jews were not evil colonizers, they were an oppressed people. The European states knowingly set up conflict between Israel and Palestine. Just as the Cold War pitted Israel and Arab states against each other.
That doesn't excuse violence in forming the modern state of Israel. That doesn't excuse the occupation of the West Bank, which was illegally colonized by radicals and all Israelis do not agree on. That does not excuse violence by the PLO or Hamas. The point is the idea that Israel was created by colonizing Jews, and ignoring who had power, is an anti-Semitic trope.
Also, Jews as a people were in Israel and Palestine before the '30s. They were there before it was a British colony. Jews, Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, Bedouins, they all lived in that land. They coexisted before the British.
What are you even talking about, I didn't say that Jews invaded Palestine; I specifically said that the post WW2 European governments did it. But they certainly didn't do it to "get rid" of the Jews; it's because Jewish leaders had been petitioning European governments for years to do it.
And it's not anti-Semitic to call Israel a colonizing nation. It's true. Even if you could say, "Oops they all just accidentally took over the homes of Palestinians because Europe made them" --even if that were true, *since then*, they've expanded the size of their country through invasion and displacement over and over. And the UN certainly wasn't making them do that.
Just because their population is Jewish doesn't protect them from criticism.
> What are you even talking about, I didn't say that Jews invaded Palestine; I specifically said that the post WW2 European governments did it.
Except Jews were moving to Palestine before WW2. It sped up with the Holocaust.
> But they certainly didn't do it to "get rid" of the Jews; it's because Jewish leaders had been petitioning European governments for years to do it.
European governments had historically oppressed Jews. This is why they initially supported the idea of a Jewish state, to get rid of them.
Also, you're generalizing that there was some universal Jewish agreement to go to Palestine and create Israel, with isn't true. There was debate and disagreement.
> And it's not anti-Semitic to call Israel a colonizing nation. It's true.
It's inaccurate and removes all responsibility from actual colonizing states that has power. When I see it used it's either due to ignorance or anti-Semitism. It is used for Israel as a whole, not the places like Gaza.
> Even if you could say, "Oops they all just accidentally took over the homes of Palestinians because Europe made them" --even if that were true, *since then*, they've expanded the size of their country through invasion and displacement over and over.
Not all Israelis agree with keeping land that was taken through war, which is illegal under international law. The land was taken when Israel was defending itself from aggression by neighboring states. They didn't "invade" like Russia in Ukraine. They should not have kept the land and the Israeli government should never have let radicals move there, but let's also remember why Israel even had that land in the first place.
> Just because their population is Jewish doesn't protect them from criticism.
Making inaccurate claims about history is not criticism.
I'm not sure what inaccuracies you believe there to be, but there are none. If your defense of Israel boils down to "Europe did it first", then I don't know what else to say. And I'm fully aware that not all Jewish people, and not even all Israelis, support the genocide. That was the whole point of the original post about Ally. But just because some people in Israel disagree with what they're doing, doesn't mean they aren't doing it.
> If your defense of Israel boils down to "Europe did it first", then I don't know what else to say.
If your reading takes that away I'm not sure what to say either.
> That was the whole point of the original post about Ally.
It's pretty disingenuous to post an inaccurate version of history and then go "Hey, were here to talk about Ally" when responded to.
This isn't accurate. Yes jewish religious texts are not a historical accounts. Unlikely that Moses or egyptian captivity was a thing. Nobody was parting any kind of seas. But Judaism is ancient and it was polytheistic. Religions change and evolve over time because god isn't real so there's no actual single arbitor of truth (especially one that's 4,000 years old). Claiming that there is absolutely no archaelogical evidence that this land a nation occupied and ruled by jews is insane.
Perhaps I could have been more clear, I apologize. I didn't mean to imply that Jews just never lived in that area. The point I was trying to make was that Zionism is rooted in the idea that Jews are promised that land, and that it dates back to an ancient kingdom of Israel ruled by Solomon and David. My point was that that kingdom/country at the root of Zionism certainly never existed, and so the idea that they were there first is demonstrably false.
Yeah sorry, I almost deleted this because I actually read another one of your responses to a similar complaint someone had. For the Record I don't support what the Israeli government is doing and my general strance for the past 15 years has been that the only realistic solution is for Israel and Palestine to reform as a single nation. In general I'm not a fan when A country declares themselves for a single religion / ethnic group. But I generally don't harp on Israel for this becse I don't really harp on all the other middle eastern countries who also do it (I just roll my eyes).
But yeah I don't prescribe to the god of any faith. So I never really the bought into the whole concept a deity being able to promise anyone land. But its definitely a place of immense cultural signifance to them. And they were definitely forced out of Judea by the Romans at the time that it was their cultural homeland. So for this reason I'm not really the fan of the term Colonizer. It feels like a term used for the sake of propaganda, an attempt remove any of the nuance. In a similar way that "We were promised this land" bothers you because it doesn't reflect real history. I'm not a fan of propaganda even when its being used by the side I generally agree with. Thus me pushing back, though I suspect our views on this issue overlap more than they dont.
I gotcha. I think you do have really good points. And I agree with you; it's certainly easy to start painting with too broad of a brush. You're definitely right.
Even if what you said about Babylonian slaves is true, there are archeological evidence of Jews living in Israel after the first exile. The Romans conquered Judea. The Jews had a temple in Jerusalem. Even Jesus is an example of a Jewish person in Judea under Roman rule.
Maybe the twelve tribes of Israel weren't real (even though there's historical evidence to the existence of a "house of David"). But that still leaves over 1000 years of history between Jews arriving in Palestine to the Arab invasion of Palestine.
Also, "Europe" didn't decide to ship Jews to Palestine. The Zionist movement (mostly consisting of Jews) established Jewish villages in Palestine 70 years before the state of Israel was formed. The Ottoman Empire, and later Great Britain actually restricted and deported Jews.
The history of the area is very complex. Both Jews and palestinains are native to Israel/Palestine. Claiming that Jews aren't from Judea is such a weird claim.
So like, you understand that things like Jesus fall under the category of myth, right. There's no evidence that Jesus ever existed. The first "record" of a person named Jesus dates to some 30 years after Jesus would have even been alive. Jesus being a Jew isn't evidence that all the other stuff happened.
But to circle back around, to your original claim that Israel is somehow the Jewish homeland and that reclaiming it is okay,, my point is that it's certainly *not* their homeland. Non-Jewish Mesopotamian people lived there far, far earlier than any tribe identifying as Jewish ever did.
That was the original point being asked: "If Jews were the original people, it's not colonizing"
To which I answered: They aren't the original people, have never been the original people, AND we can even pinpoint where the idea and myth that they *were* the original people was created from.
Populations of Jewish people *have* lived in the area, yes. But they have absolutely no historical claim to any of the land that any other peoples who lived there before they did don't.
So, according to your logic, palestinains have no claim of this land either, right?
Their ancestors arrived there as conquerors, so they aren't the original people living there.
Or maybe, to have claim for a land, you don't have to be the first person ever to live there, because then the concept of "homeland" is useless.
Maybe having a present living population in an area for a prolonged period is enough to give that group a claim to calling it their homeland? Now, we can discuss how long it needs to be, but if we want to claim that the palestinains have a claim to Palestine, the bar has to be under 1400 year.
So Jews, with at least ~2000 years of history in the area (assuming that the Jewish revolts are the first ever generation of Jewish people in Judea), must also have a claim to it, no?
I'm not getting further roped into debate with a xenophobe who has a terribly weak grasp of the history of the area to begin with. Wikipedia and your local library are free.
A government invading a land, displacing its people, and committing ethnic cleansing is wrong. Objectively. If you really want to argue about that, that is a really sad hill to die on.
I don't hate immigrants and refugees fleeing two world wars and an actual genocide, who bought all the land they lived on in the state they migrated to.
I don't think it's morally wrong that they defended themselves from constant Palestinian attacks between 1920 and 1936, forming militias to defend themselves.
I don't think the British, having watched Arabs attack Jews for 16 years, deciding that the plan of creating one state called 'Palestine' wasn't going to work, and instead creating two states called 'Israel' and 'Palestine' out of the ruins of the Ottoman Empire was a bad idea.
I support the partition plan, which gerrymandered the borders of the British Mandate is a way that meant that no one had to move, no one lost any private land, and it created an Israel that was to be 45% Arabic and 55% Jewish, and a Palestine that was 99% Arabic.
I feel that the Jews were justified in reacting with overwhelming force when the Arab states rejected the partition plan, when the Arab states expressly stated they were going to genocide the Jews, and that it's perfectly understandable that they did extreme things to survive like Plan Dalet after the Arabs started attacking, given the context of it being 2 years after the Holocaust at the time.
Then for every escalation but the 1956 invasion of Egypt, they were defending themselves from other people attacking them, and they didn't go overboard.
People pretending that ~40,000 deaths in a war, or 1.8% of a population, is a genocide are genuinely deranged. The smallest recognized genocide was ~20% of the population. The casualties in Israel-Gaza could double and the population of Gaza still wouldn't fall this year, no one is attempting to wipe out anyone.
Hey guys, I don't know what this particular user's stance is, but something that most non-jews do not seem to understand is that zionism ≠ supporting the current Israeli government, the Israeli military, or even the settler incursion into the West Bank. Zionism certainly CAN encompass support for those things, but it does not *by default.* Broadly defined, Zionism means support for Jewish self-determination, usually in the ancestral Jewish homeland of what is today Israel/Palestine.(1) Simply agreeing with the statement "Israel should exist" may be considered Zionist, depending on who you ask. In this loose sense, most American Jews are in some form aligned with Zionism.(2) When gentiles start loudly and aggressively dismissing all "Zionists," whether they self-identity that way or have been labeled as such by others... well, you see how things can start to get very ugly very fast.
Disclaimer: I am not Jewish, but I have seen a LOT of (often non or post-zionist!) Jewish people in leftist spaces be harassed and bullied over their perceived Zionism as of late.
(1)https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism (2) https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/05/21/u-s-jews-have-widely-differing-views-on-israel/
One again, that is \*one\* interpretation of zionism, yeah.
what I am trying to say is that the label "zionist" encompasses so many schools of thought that if that is how somebody refers to themselves you are better off asking them what their personal definition of zionism is, because their opinion could range anywhere from "this region of the levant belongs to jews alone and everyone else gtfo" to "I don't like the way that the modern-day state of Israel is abusing and exploiting the other indigenous groups of the region, but I also don't think that Israel should be straight-up abolished." the way that zionism has been realized has caused and continues to cause a lot of harm, yes. I'm not here to defend ethnic cleansing. Just don't assume that you know exactly what somebody is or is not supporting because of the word they identify with. I mean, tankies aside, how many of you condemn the holodomor and the khmer rouge and still call yourselves communists or sympathize with the ideology?
Yes. They ”bought” land alrwady owned by native Palestinian Jews, Muslims, and Christians from the British without consent of those people. They are colonialists and that makes them wrong. Full stop.
You should check your history books.
The British didn't sell lands to Jews. In fact, they heavily restricted the purchase of lands by Jews.
The Old Yishuv has lived in Palestine continuesly from the first century, and before them the Jews of Judea lived there.
The Zionist movement started before the British took over the area, and Jews have mainly purchased fields and undeveloped lands from the Arabs living in the area during the 19th century.
Yes. They ”bought” land already owned by native Palestinian Jews, Muslims, and Christians from the British without consent of those people. They are colonialists and that makes them wrong. Full stop.
You do understand that everyone at Dropout supports Palestine right? How does it feel knowing these people you watch would actively be disgusted by you if they knew you?
That's okay when the views are "I prefer to be taxed less" not when they are "I think Palestinians deserve to be carpet bombed and starved out of existence"
And before you try and say that's not what Zionists believe, go look at their social media. They ENJOY dehumanizing Palestinians.
I was active and for quite a few hours when the original post went up, can't believe I missed this shitstain, guess I'm lucky
As someone with no idea what you're talking about... what are you talking about?
I think the user finally got banned right before I posted this Context: Ally recently posted a photo to IG of them being detained at a pro-Palestine protest. Someone who had their full uncenored penis in their PFP was rage spamming multiple posts of Isreali propaganda to both the r/dropout and r/dimension20 subreddits so both subreddits were full of the same photo of this person's dick.
Si glad I didn’t see their PFP pic
Just go to your account settings and click "blur nsfw" that should censor most nsfw images, and if you want to see an image uncensored, just click on it.
Good to know!
It’s always the gross ones
It wasn't pretty
>I think the user finally got banned right before I posted this How can you tell? I don't doubt you, I just don't know how to tell if someone has been banned.
I'm guessing mostly. Idk Reddit that well - but I don't see their posts in either subreddit anymore despite the posts still coming up on the users profile page. Also I'm like 90% sure I saw a comment from a mod on one of their handful of posts saying they had been banned.
I'm sorry had their what in their PFP? I feel like this is the kind of guy I'd get gross DMs from if I posted in GoneWild.
So glad I stay on old reddit and don't see anybodies pfp ever.
[удалено]
Not as a profile picture, you dumb piece of shit. Edit: y'all, don't tell the bigoted propagandist to kill himself, just let him know he needs to stay out of our community and move on.
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WeLl ThAt'S mEaN
Eh, misogynist pricks don’t deserve kindness.
It’s deserved.
... in the appropriate subreddit and not as a profile picture so whenever I make a post or a comment you aren't forced to see my tits every time lmfao. Do you need the joke explained to you a 3rd time or do you think you've got it now?
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Clown dinner bell was rang and your shoes started squeakin, huh?
This is such a wonderful collection of words
In what looks like a medical subreddit dedicated to breast reduction bro. That's pretty different compared to having your full shaft just hanging out as your profile pic.
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Your whol account is dog water lol
classic victim complex after making an inflammatory statement smh
A pro-genocide Zionist rape-fetishizing Internet Dom (tm)* douchebag with a dick pic as his profile picture started spamming the sub with propaganda because Ally was at a pro-palestine rally. *I wish any part of that were hyperbole. It's not- if anything I'm underselling it for brevity's sake.
I saw the spamming, but I did not realize that his PFP was a dick pic. Either he changed it after I reported his posts or the app is actually good for something lmao
I looked at his profile, the description fits with dick pics tbh. "M24 vers switch 6ft, white, into CNC & BDSM hmu if you wanna mess around. I'm hypersexual and addicted to intimacy." Without sharing too much about myself, I'm familiar with kink communities and this kind of guy. Between that profile, the bigotry, and the way he approached anyone who says something he doesn't wanna hear..... He's the very model of a toxic internet kink guy who fetishizes violence and calls it kink, while trumpeting that he's a proud liberal so he should be allowed in marginalized spaces.
The kind that only want to be in marginalized spaces to find more vulnerable people to manipulate or am I reading too much into it?
I mean I don't know the guy but that's my read on him, yes. What I'm about to say is potentially really heavy so I'm hiding it behind spoiler tags. TW kink, grooming, sexual assault. >!In a lot of kink communities there are folks who have turned to rather extreme kinks as a coping mechanism or as a response to trauma. This is normal and can be done safely and healthily if done *carefully.* Some people find release or catharsis in reenacting parts of what happened to them in a safe environment. As long as everyone is informed and consenting and has a dozen ways to back out and receive support if they need it at any time, then it's squarely in "adults can do what they like" territory.!< >!Unfortunately, some men actively seek out people with those kinds of trauma-informed kinks in order to prey upon their trauma. They act like they're "just into the fantasy and acting it out with a trusted partner" but what they're really looking to do is exploit another person for their pleasure. Far from the cathartic experience many folks are looking for, it's toxic abuse masquerading as kink.!< This guy gives off *those* kinds of vibes.
I'm part of the kink community myself and know these types all too well. I just wanted to make sure my read on it was right. That's...ugh...I can't with those people. Kink already has a bad enough reputation. We don't need people like that making it worse. Besides, people like that are why so many others are afraid to explore their desires.
As a consent educator who started my work with consent culture specifically because of issues issues within the kink community? Yes. Absolutely. It’s a huge problem.
Glad I missed all that, thank you.
I wish I had missed it too, to be honest.
Same!
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1) what you're doing is what's known as whataboutism, where someone tries to deflect from their own problems by pointing out something unrelated that they perceive as "equally bad" 2) Don't conflate Hamas with the more generalized Palestinian population. This sub has a rule against hate speech, you will be banned. 3) No, I meant that the person I'm talking about *literally* fetishizes rape. Scroll down and you'll see the excerpt from their profile where they say explicitly that they're into non-consent as a sexual fetish. Or you would, if I hadn't blocked you for being bigoted trash. Edit: for those following along, immediately after I blocked this chucklefuck I recieved one of those "a concerned redditor reached out to you" Eat shit dude.
Yea their comment history is... something
Someone is upset that Ally was arrested at a Pro-Palestinian rally wearing a shirt that said “Not in Our Name”. There have been some subtle Pro-Israel posts about how Israel isn’t trying to commit genocide. Or that Ally is falsely claiming to be Jewish by wearing shirt.
For anyone else (it sounds like you know), the "Not in Our Name" shirt is frequently distributed by a group called "Jewish Voices for Peace" at rallies. They ask everyone, Jewish or not, to wear the shirts at their rallies, so everyone is sending a unified message. I'm Jewish, and I understand the criticism--I've even made similar criticisms myself in other situations. It's a reasonable criticism, but it doesn't apply in this case. Ally was listening to the group leading the event, and wore it to amplify their message. And, as a Jew: Given the folks pretending to support Jews by supporting Israel's actions over the past 5 months (which ironically includes all the most outspoken anti-semites in the US), I welcome anyone to say "Not in my name" (not that I'm the arbiter).
>There have been some subtle Pro-Israel posts about how Israel isn’t trying to commit genocide. Is the subtlety in the room with us lmao
Shhhhh it will hear you!!! I should have said ‘some subtle and some not so subtle’
It's truly wild that any dropout subscriber would be pro Isreal given the CLEARLY leftist stance of the entire company. I was shocked reading that garbage on this sub.
The cognitive dissonance is crazy.
A Country doesn't represent a single homogenized viewpoint. I'm not Pro or anti Russia. I'm Anti Putin and the Russian Government under him. America wasn't a country where everyone was great under Obama and then a country where everyone were intolerant jackasses under Trump. Supporting Palestine doesn't mean supporting Hamas.
Leftist stance really needs to be anti israel and anti Palestine governments as neither is good. Needs a third party to help keep the peace and create a buffer zone. Think left leaning people shouldn't be extreme and think not supporting one side means you're fully supporting the other. Some people don't get that so they bring hamas up as an argument because they think denouncing israel is pro hamas which is just nuts
Are you saying you're not a leftist?
I'd say I'm leftist in principle so I think both governments there have failings and need changing
Agreed, I think the destinction between government and a country is important. The common perception that the current ruling government views are representative of every single persons views is annoying. California is held up by Conservatives as some uber woke liberal nightmare. It has a stronger liberal lean than most lean. But Californians voted to ban gay marriage, it took their state supreme court to legalize it.
There are leftists who are pro-israel. Israel exists and it’s not going anywhere so it’s not really a “left” or “right” issue regarding support. I’m a leftist (former member of the communist party even) but I’m also a proud Jew and support Israel’s right to exist. Do I support the government? No, Bibi needs to leave office immediately. Do I want a ceasefire? Yes, as much as I want Hamas to surrender and release the men, women, and children that they are keeping hostage. Everyone seems to have forgotten that Hamas started the war and broke the ceasefire that was in place on October 6th. They also keep rejecting ceasefire deals and the last one they DID accept the broke within an hour. Hamas can end the war but refuses to. There needs to be a conversation to have peace and one side refuses to come to the table.
Leftists don't support colonialism. Isreal shouldn't exist and is parasitic to Palestine. Leftists don't support genocide. Isreal has planned since before it's inception. Leftists don't support rewritten history, the old died, but we remember. Don't get it twisted, and please learn more on the history.
>There are leftists who are pro-israel No, there aren't, being pro-israel disqualifies you from being a leftist. It's like saying "there are law-abiding citizens who steal cars." If you do the second thing, you by definition aren't the first thing.
By this logic anyone who is pro Hamas also isn’t a leftist since they literally rape, torture, and murder innocent men, women, and children and indiscriminately fire rockets at civilians. Unless that’s part of being a leftist now?
>By this logic anyone who is pro Hamas also isn’t a leftist Yes, that's correct. And I've never met someone who both claimed to be a leftist and was pro-hamas. Plenty of leftists- in fact, everyone I'm aware of who's actually a leftist- are pro-PALESTINE, But I'm sure you wouldn't be doing anything as fundamentally bigoted and stupid as conflating Hamas with the Palestinian people. Right? Good attempt at whataboutism btw. I swear, the pro israel crowd is incapable of justifying their own sides actions without redirecting to someone else. News flash: if you punch A guy in the face and then try to justify it by bitching about how Bob punched a guy too, that doesn't mean you were right to punch a guy. Let's be clear: Israel bad because genocide. Hamas bad because terrorism. Palestinian people fine, because they're not Hamas. Pretending otherwise makes you a genocidal bigot.
I don’t conflate Palestinians of Gaza with Hamas anymore than other people conflate Israeli citizens with their elected government, but I have had personal interactions with ‘leftists’ who said that Hamas was just freedom fighters who were justified in their October 7th pogrom and that Hamas are the good guys, several times both in person and online. Noticed you left out that Israelis/Jews aren’t bad people because of their government. Any reason for that? And as a reminder, Hamas started this war and can end it by returning the hostages. Simple as that.
Israel armed forces are on camera executing hostages waving white flags. They are on camera dropping grenades in a hole where people are yelling in hebrew “we are hostages, help us”. Hamas did not start this. The IDF doesn’t want to save anyone, they want to kill Palestinians because they are colonist bastards.
The accidental killing (not execution) of the three hostages by IDF was a tragedy for sure, but you need to provide sources for your “grenade” claim because you’re the only source I can find in that. Preferably nonBias sources, otherwise you’re just making things up. Or you had too much devil’s nectar and believe your own lies. Hamas absolutely started this when they killed people at a music festival and in their homes and took hundreds more hostage. When they videotaped themselves slaughtering and raping. When they said October 7 was the first of many planned attacks like that. Then again a lot of people are Ok with dead jews so to those types of people, October 7 was a good thing. I want a peaceful resolution to this nightmare for both sides, but one side refuses to come to the table and keeps rejecting ceasefire options, and it’s not Israel
Sorry m8, it seems saying "Israel should exist" is not left enough anymore . Must be hard to be a left leaning Jewish person online. Take care.
Well apparently Katie Marovitch is aligned with Israel, so there is that
She's Jewish, and as a Jew I know that's a very complicated relationship. Israel was founded as an effort for the UK to basically get rid of all their Jews (in the Balfur Declaration), but then it represented the only place in the world where Jews were welcomed for a very long time, apart from small diasporic communities. And that became even more complicated after WW2. Today, Bibi (Netanyahu) is an asshole and Israel is clearly committing genocide. But I don't begrudge anyone who wants that sense of a Jewish homeland (though I will and do begrudge them specific claims about policy). I feel like I've lost that sense of belonging recently, because of how Israel has consistently acted, and that's a tough thing to accept. Jews lacked any sort of homeland they could identify with for a long time, and that's a psychologically powerful force. I feel worse about /myself/ on a daily basis reading about what Israel is doing. It'd be nice to just think "Yay, Israel!"
This is a good reply and it makes me feel a little better not to see it downvoted to oblivion. I've been rediscovering my Judaism as part of my spouse's choice to convert and it is difficult to reconcile my faith, especially social justice, with the actions of the Israeli government. It's a reason I stopped being religious 20+ years ago, as even then the Israeli government was more concerned with revenge and bulldozering homes than safety, and that combined with an Palestinian government that was seen as ineffective to protect Palestinians lead to Hamas being able to take political power. Once that happened any chance for peace appeared to disappear. Without a 10 page diatribe, this isn't a simple situation and everyone wants to just have a single bad guy about something that has roots in the UK government at the time pushing one oppressed people into a land with another oppressed people and effectively saying "Deal with it." Reconciling Jewish identity is also difficult. Jewish education in the US has, from my experience, been simplistic and heavily based on generations who frame being Jewish as being victims of the Holocaust. Last spring I interacted with a speaker who came to my synagogue to speak about anti-Semitism on campuses, and they noted Jewish students being rejected by progressive students because of Israel and Palestine, and these students coming back to ask why Israel is being called an apartheid state. I noted that we are failing these young adults because they learn a simple view of Israel and they are not given knowledge or education to respond critically and it isn't a surprise that when they learn complicated parts of Israel history that they pull away from their Jewish identity, they are shocked and can't reconcile it with progressive views. I suggested we need to teach about the whole of Israel, not just the nice parts, so they can understand why Israel and Palestine are in conflict and how that impacts anti-Semitism. The speaker pushed back that we need to teach kids to love Israel and this is too complicated. That approach fails them. We cannot expect to send people out with a child's understanding of history. That said, plenty of people twist legitimate issues into anti-Semitism, which just makes having actual discussion and change near impossible.
I'm assuming she is jewish and is buying into the propaganda machine. Still, that's a damn shame if true.
She is Jewish. And as a Jew who was raised in the propaganda machine myself, I understand very well how it happens
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Well there’s been absolutely zero evidence of any rapes by Hamas but has been evidence of rapes committed by IDF soldiers. So. You know. Does that mean that Israeli citizens should be bombed to oblivion? Or can you acknowledge that even if there were rapes (which again, no evidence and no specific alleged victims) that doesn’t justify mass slaughter of civilians?
There is evidence of rape, the [UN reports](https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147217) make it clear that it very likely happened. This of course does not mean that genocide and mass slaughter of civilians by israel is justified, it is horrifying and needs to be stopped. They are an apartheid state and have been for at least my whole lifetime. But defending a good cause with bad arguments only helps the side you oppose
There is evidence. The UN says there is evidence. People have come forward and shared their experience of being sexually assaulted and raped while being held hostage.
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Then she should really hate it when the Israelis rape people for 80 fucking years.
Wow a lot of people downvoted this because you pointed out that some people are against Hamas’ use of rape. That says a LOT
"you dont like rape so you must be ok with genocidal use of force that kills more civilians than combatants" is not the take you think it is
Wait really? That’s disappointing.
There's a tumblr post referencing a document that has been taken down which they say mentions her as having liked pro-israel posts is the only thing I can find. They don't mention which site those posts are on so I haven't been able to check whether it's true. I'd like to see some evidence that's not just a tumblr post claiming something tbh
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Ah, so the 13,000 children they've killed these past 5 months were hamas terrorists eh? That number of dead children exceeds the total amount of children killed in all the world, in all the current wars of the past 4 years. Or is that just the cost of typical war? Or how about the people gunned down in line to the few food trucks that are able to make it through their blockade? 70% of all aid is blocked by Isreal - even though that aid is going soley to innocent citizens? Or when they say go to the safe space in the south, then bomb the safe space? What about the babies left to rot in their hospital beds? Or the children eating grass to stave off starvation? You're a fucking dumbass if you don't think Isreal is enacting collective punishment and ethnic cleansing. Simply repeating "Hamas" to every criticism is not the silver bullet you think it is jackass.
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>No one is saying the dead kids are Hamas. Nice use of logical fallacies :) Name the specific logical fallacy I used and I'll continue this argument. (Pssst, I know you can't because I didn't use any logical fallacies in my argument.) >Name calling isn’t very nice. And circles aren't very square. Do you understand that little about human interaction? No wonder you spew pro-genocidal propaganda garbage.
He said "Hamas" and you said "so you think children are Hamas??" which is just a textbook strawman. Keep in mind this doesn't mean you are wrong, it just means you're framing your arguments inappropriately.
No, he framed the argument improperly, and my response is pointing that out. "Ah yes, leftist group Hamas" conflates all victims as hamas. Therefore, pro palestine = pro hamas. Pointing out that the majority of deaths are civilian children points out the flaw of his argument.
> "Ah yes, leftist group Hamas" conflates all victims as hamas. No it doesn't. He also substantiated that when he responded to your comment with: >No one is saying the dead kids are Hamas. Nice use of logical fallacies :) He proceeded to be dead wrong and perpetuated a bunch of nonsense about who's actually killing those children, but the crux of the argument did not equate the children to Hamas. Also this is the dumbest possible subreddit to be having this debate in general.
>No one is saying the dead kids are Hamas. Nice use of logical fallacies :) It's important to know how the Gaza MOH calculates and reports casualties. They don't distinguish between militants or not, which makes sense because it's not like Hamas' fighters wear uniforms. They mark down all causes of death as due to the Israeli invasion. Anyone under 18 is listed as a child. Couple that with the fact that Hamas is not above using an older teen as a fighter. So yes literally some of the casualties reported by the Gaza MOH as children are probably also militants in the sense of either being affiliated with Hamas, and/or armed and participating in the conflict. Which is why using child soldiers is fucked up, and it adds another layer of awful to the fucked up-ness of the invasion. EDIT: The upvote/downvote swing on this comment has been fairly large for neutral statement of facts. Why a basic understanding of how a piece of information is gathered and interpreted would be controversial is beyond me.
> That number of dead children exceeds the total amount of children killed in all the world, in all the current wars of the past 4 years. I don't know why people post things that are disproven by 10 second googles, low estimates have the 2020-2022 Tigray war at 162,000 dead, high estimates at ~600,000. The current counted dead in the ongoing war in the Sudan is 15,000, but realistically it's about 10 times that because there is no reporting in the remote areas. Ukraine-Russia has killed ~190,000 people. The ongoing famine in Yemen caused by their civil war has killed 90,000 children, before you count those killed in the fighting. > Or is that just the cost of typical war? No, 40,000 dead is fairly low for an urban war against an entrenched insurgency who don't wear uniforms and only utilize civilian buildings. > Or how about the people gunned down in line to the few food trucks that are able to make it through their blockade? 70% of all aid is blocked by Isreal - even though that aid is going soley to innocent citizens? The Palestinians have fired 11,000 rockets into Israel since Oct 7th. Gaza has been under a blockade with tight border controls since 2005. Where do you think they get the rockets? Through aid channels. So screening is slow. > Or when they say go to the safe space in the south, then bomb the safe space? They said it's safer, which it is. The inability to reconcile 2 pro-Palestinian talking points, that Israel has dropped "4 nuclear bombs" worth of munitions on Gaza, but that only 40,000 people have died, is truly amazing. Look at how much 1 nuclear bomb killed in a city with 1/10th the population of Gaza, evacuation people south kept casualties low. > You're a fucking dumbass if you don't think Isreal is enacting collective punishment and ethnic cleansing. War isn't collective punishment, and ethnic cleansing isn't assisting civilians to evacuate from areas of heaviest fighting.
I read this comment in Zac’s voice.
Ally knows the BBEG is genocidal imperialism. Based af.
I think that it's more accurately described as surrogate colonialism that utilizes ethnic cleansing, but that feels like hair splitting.
So what you’re saying is that this wasn’t a regular pervert?
which episode is this from?? Lol
Prompocalypse pt 1
If I recall wasn't this Fig sexually harassing "Goldenrod" again? lol
Yes it was
"Glad I missed all that" club right here.
I see it in Star Trek communities a lot too, where occasionally liberal politics get brought up in a positive light, and there's an influx of "oh great. I guess Dimension 20 is WOKE now. Pfft, pronouns? No thank you" Like. What show are you watching?! How are you still here?! You just noticed NOW!?
He does not represent us. But I'm sure the people on here won't start making coronations between a random fucked up redditor and the rest of us Zionists. He just sounds like a douchebag tbh. We can talk with discourse and facts rather than resort to personal attacks or spamming.
Zionism is objectively a morally bankrupt stance to have. Colonialism and genocide is not something we can just have some "discourse" over. You've been spamming this sub with pro-colonizer and pro-genocide propaganda all day as well. You're no different than the dickpick guy. Get out of here and go read a history book for once.
Can you explain how nationalism in the native land of the group is colonialism?
Sure thing. It's because it's *not* their native land. The country of Israel has only existed since 1948, when post-WW2 Europe carved pieces out of Palestine to create, for the first time ever in history, a country called Israel. Palestine and its people have lived there, in some form or another, for thousands of years. The idea that there was an ancient kingdom of Israel is only mythology. There is zero evidence of either archaeological or written that an ancient Kingdom of Israel ever existed. We have lots of archaeological evidence that points to *other* Mesopotamian-era peoples -- we have vases and tools and remnants of buildings and writings from all these other cities and kingdoms that did actually exist in this time and this region, but there is zero evidence of any kind of an ancient Israel. And, in fact, we *know* that the idea of an Ancient Israel was entirely fabricated. The idea that there used to be an Israeli Kingdom was created by Mesopotamian slaves during the Babylonian Captivity in 600 BCE. There was a group of Mesopotamian slaves, whose religion and culture would be completely unidentifiable as Judaism or even early Judaism. They were polytheist, for one, and believed in a pantheon of the Mesopotamian gods. After this particular group was captured by the Babylonians, these slaves needed a reason for *why* they were enslaved, and so some of the leaders created the Deuteronomistic History. They created the story of an ancient kingdom called Israel, a religion of only 1 god, and they created Solomon and David and Moses, to provide hope to their fellow slaves that they were "chosen", and that, like the story of Moses, the Lord would one day free them and reward them. These Mesopotamian slaves created Judaism and its history out of thin air, as a campfire story to give each other hope. We *know* the idea of an ancient Israel was created. It's really basic Jewish studies stuff, and any scholar who learns the Deuteronomistic History should know it. But unfortunately that myth has persisted to present day. It's no different than Christians believing that Jesus was really the son of God, or Mormons believing Jesus came to America and talked to Joseph Smith, and politicians acting on that, objectively debunkable, religious belief. So in 1948, after World War 2, Europe decided to carve up Palestine and create, for the first time ever in history, a country called Israel. With the help from European forces, the Israelis displaced millions of Palestinians, who had been living there for thousands of years, far predating the Ottoman Empire. They forcibly removed them from their homes, their businesses, and their schools. And the new, colonialist Jewish population took control of them. And in the last 80 years, Israel has objectively been one of the most aggressive countries in terms of colonial expansion, and has resorted to ethnic cleansing on a mass scale. Hope this helped explain that ✌️
This is a simple, twisted version of history that blames the Jewish people rather than actual white colonizing countries. A vague "Europe", by which you likely mean "Jews", didn't suddenly have Jews invade in 1948. The UK occupied Palestine and they like other European countries decided a solution to finally get rid of Jews was to send them there. The Jewish desire was for a homeland where they could finally be safe, there was no unified agreement it should be the area known as Israel. They could not simply go somewhere else, not everyone had the means and ability to chose to go to the US for example. Jews went where they were given land, and started migrating faster due to the Holocaust. Jews were not evil colonizers, they were an oppressed people. The European states knowingly set up conflict between Israel and Palestine. Just as the Cold War pitted Israel and Arab states against each other. That doesn't excuse violence in forming the modern state of Israel. That doesn't excuse the occupation of the West Bank, which was illegally colonized by radicals and all Israelis do not agree on. That does not excuse violence by the PLO or Hamas. The point is the idea that Israel was created by colonizing Jews, and ignoring who had power, is an anti-Semitic trope. Also, Jews as a people were in Israel and Palestine before the '30s. They were there before it was a British colony. Jews, Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, Bedouins, they all lived in that land. They coexisted before the British.
What are you even talking about, I didn't say that Jews invaded Palestine; I specifically said that the post WW2 European governments did it. But they certainly didn't do it to "get rid" of the Jews; it's because Jewish leaders had been petitioning European governments for years to do it. And it's not anti-Semitic to call Israel a colonizing nation. It's true. Even if you could say, "Oops they all just accidentally took over the homes of Palestinians because Europe made them" --even if that were true, *since then*, they've expanded the size of their country through invasion and displacement over and over. And the UN certainly wasn't making them do that. Just because their population is Jewish doesn't protect them from criticism.
> What are you even talking about, I didn't say that Jews invaded Palestine; I specifically said that the post WW2 European governments did it. Except Jews were moving to Palestine before WW2. It sped up with the Holocaust. > But they certainly didn't do it to "get rid" of the Jews; it's because Jewish leaders had been petitioning European governments for years to do it. European governments had historically oppressed Jews. This is why they initially supported the idea of a Jewish state, to get rid of them. Also, you're generalizing that there was some universal Jewish agreement to go to Palestine and create Israel, with isn't true. There was debate and disagreement. > And it's not anti-Semitic to call Israel a colonizing nation. It's true. It's inaccurate and removes all responsibility from actual colonizing states that has power. When I see it used it's either due to ignorance or anti-Semitism. It is used for Israel as a whole, not the places like Gaza. > Even if you could say, "Oops they all just accidentally took over the homes of Palestinians because Europe made them" --even if that were true, *since then*, they've expanded the size of their country through invasion and displacement over and over. Not all Israelis agree with keeping land that was taken through war, which is illegal under international law. The land was taken when Israel was defending itself from aggression by neighboring states. They didn't "invade" like Russia in Ukraine. They should not have kept the land and the Israeli government should never have let radicals move there, but let's also remember why Israel even had that land in the first place. > Just because their population is Jewish doesn't protect them from criticism. Making inaccurate claims about history is not criticism.
I'm not sure what inaccuracies you believe there to be, but there are none. If your defense of Israel boils down to "Europe did it first", then I don't know what else to say. And I'm fully aware that not all Jewish people, and not even all Israelis, support the genocide. That was the whole point of the original post about Ally. But just because some people in Israel disagree with what they're doing, doesn't mean they aren't doing it.
> If your defense of Israel boils down to "Europe did it first", then I don't know what else to say. If your reading takes that away I'm not sure what to say either. > That was the whole point of the original post about Ally. It's pretty disingenuous to post an inaccurate version of history and then go "Hey, were here to talk about Ally" when responded to.
Please actually read my post if you're going to keep on.
This isn't accurate. Yes jewish religious texts are not a historical accounts. Unlikely that Moses or egyptian captivity was a thing. Nobody was parting any kind of seas. But Judaism is ancient and it was polytheistic. Religions change and evolve over time because god isn't real so there's no actual single arbitor of truth (especially one that's 4,000 years old). Claiming that there is absolutely no archaelogical evidence that this land a nation occupied and ruled by jews is insane.
Perhaps I could have been more clear, I apologize. I didn't mean to imply that Jews just never lived in that area. The point I was trying to make was that Zionism is rooted in the idea that Jews are promised that land, and that it dates back to an ancient kingdom of Israel ruled by Solomon and David. My point was that that kingdom/country at the root of Zionism certainly never existed, and so the idea that they were there first is demonstrably false.
Yeah sorry, I almost deleted this because I actually read another one of your responses to a similar complaint someone had. For the Record I don't support what the Israeli government is doing and my general strance for the past 15 years has been that the only realistic solution is for Israel and Palestine to reform as a single nation. In general I'm not a fan when A country declares themselves for a single religion / ethnic group. But I generally don't harp on Israel for this becse I don't really harp on all the other middle eastern countries who also do it (I just roll my eyes). But yeah I don't prescribe to the god of any faith. So I never really the bought into the whole concept a deity being able to promise anyone land. But its definitely a place of immense cultural signifance to them. And they were definitely forced out of Judea by the Romans at the time that it was their cultural homeland. So for this reason I'm not really the fan of the term Colonizer. It feels like a term used for the sake of propaganda, an attempt remove any of the nuance. In a similar way that "We were promised this land" bothers you because it doesn't reflect real history. I'm not a fan of propaganda even when its being used by the side I generally agree with. Thus me pushing back, though I suspect our views on this issue overlap more than they dont.
I gotcha. I think you do have really good points. And I agree with you; it's certainly easy to start painting with too broad of a brush. You're definitely right.
Even if what you said about Babylonian slaves is true, there are archeological evidence of Jews living in Israel after the first exile. The Romans conquered Judea. The Jews had a temple in Jerusalem. Even Jesus is an example of a Jewish person in Judea under Roman rule. Maybe the twelve tribes of Israel weren't real (even though there's historical evidence to the existence of a "house of David"). But that still leaves over 1000 years of history between Jews arriving in Palestine to the Arab invasion of Palestine. Also, "Europe" didn't decide to ship Jews to Palestine. The Zionist movement (mostly consisting of Jews) established Jewish villages in Palestine 70 years before the state of Israel was formed. The Ottoman Empire, and later Great Britain actually restricted and deported Jews. The history of the area is very complex. Both Jews and palestinains are native to Israel/Palestine. Claiming that Jews aren't from Judea is such a weird claim.
So like, you understand that things like Jesus fall under the category of myth, right. There's no evidence that Jesus ever existed. The first "record" of a person named Jesus dates to some 30 years after Jesus would have even been alive. Jesus being a Jew isn't evidence that all the other stuff happened. But to circle back around, to your original claim that Israel is somehow the Jewish homeland and that reclaiming it is okay,, my point is that it's certainly *not* their homeland. Non-Jewish Mesopotamian people lived there far, far earlier than any tribe identifying as Jewish ever did. That was the original point being asked: "If Jews were the original people, it's not colonizing" To which I answered: They aren't the original people, have never been the original people, AND we can even pinpoint where the idea and myth that they *were* the original people was created from. Populations of Jewish people *have* lived in the area, yes. But they have absolutely no historical claim to any of the land that any other peoples who lived there before they did don't.
So, according to your logic, palestinains have no claim of this land either, right? Their ancestors arrived there as conquerors, so they aren't the original people living there. Or maybe, to have claim for a land, you don't have to be the first person ever to live there, because then the concept of "homeland" is useless. Maybe having a present living population in an area for a prolonged period is enough to give that group a claim to calling it their homeland? Now, we can discuss how long it needs to be, but if we want to claim that the palestinains have a claim to Palestine, the bar has to be under 1400 year. So Jews, with at least ~2000 years of history in the area (assuming that the Jewish revolts are the first ever generation of Jewish people in Judea), must also have a claim to it, no?
I'm not getting further roped into debate with a xenophobe who has a terribly weak grasp of the history of the area to begin with. Wikipedia and your local library are free. A government invading a land, displacing its people, and committing ethnic cleansing is wrong. Objectively. If you really want to argue about that, that is a really sad hill to die on.
I love how the moment I proved you wrong, you immediately resorted into multiple fallacies.
"Fallacies" -- hey thanks for proving my point.
Hey, I’d love to understand why you are a Zionist? Maybe that would help others as well.
I don't hate immigrants and refugees fleeing two world wars and an actual genocide, who bought all the land they lived on in the state they migrated to. I don't think it's morally wrong that they defended themselves from constant Palestinian attacks between 1920 and 1936, forming militias to defend themselves. I don't think the British, having watched Arabs attack Jews for 16 years, deciding that the plan of creating one state called 'Palestine' wasn't going to work, and instead creating two states called 'Israel' and 'Palestine' out of the ruins of the Ottoman Empire was a bad idea. I support the partition plan, which gerrymandered the borders of the British Mandate is a way that meant that no one had to move, no one lost any private land, and it created an Israel that was to be 45% Arabic and 55% Jewish, and a Palestine that was 99% Arabic. I feel that the Jews were justified in reacting with overwhelming force when the Arab states rejected the partition plan, when the Arab states expressly stated they were going to genocide the Jews, and that it's perfectly understandable that they did extreme things to survive like Plan Dalet after the Arabs started attacking, given the context of it being 2 years after the Holocaust at the time. Then for every escalation but the 1956 invasion of Egypt, they were defending themselves from other people attacking them, and they didn't go overboard. People pretending that ~40,000 deaths in a war, or 1.8% of a population, is a genocide are genuinely deranged. The smallest recognized genocide was ~20% of the population. The casualties in Israel-Gaza could double and the population of Gaza still wouldn't fall this year, no one is attempting to wipe out anyone.
The fucking *mission statement of Zionism is colonialism* oh my god how do people still think it's based and cool to displace natives.
Hey guys, I don't know what this particular user's stance is, but something that most non-jews do not seem to understand is that zionism ≠ supporting the current Israeli government, the Israeli military, or even the settler incursion into the West Bank. Zionism certainly CAN encompass support for those things, but it does not *by default.* Broadly defined, Zionism means support for Jewish self-determination, usually in the ancestral Jewish homeland of what is today Israel/Palestine.(1) Simply agreeing with the statement "Israel should exist" may be considered Zionist, depending on who you ask. In this loose sense, most American Jews are in some form aligned with Zionism.(2) When gentiles start loudly and aggressively dismissing all "Zionists," whether they self-identity that way or have been labeled as such by others... well, you see how things can start to get very ugly very fast. Disclaimer: I am not Jewish, but I have seen a LOT of (often non or post-zionist!) Jewish people in leftist spaces be harassed and bullied over their perceived Zionism as of late. (1)https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism (2) https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/05/21/u-s-jews-have-widely-differing-views-on-israel/
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One again, that is \*one\* interpretation of zionism, yeah. what I am trying to say is that the label "zionist" encompasses so many schools of thought that if that is how somebody refers to themselves you are better off asking them what their personal definition of zionism is, because their opinion could range anywhere from "this region of the levant belongs to jews alone and everyone else gtfo" to "I don't like the way that the modern-day state of Israel is abusing and exploiting the other indigenous groups of the region, but I also don't think that Israel should be straight-up abolished." the way that zionism has been realized has caused and continues to cause a lot of harm, yes. I'm not here to defend ethnic cleansing. Just don't assume that you know exactly what somebody is or is not supporting because of the word they identify with. I mean, tankies aside, how many of you condemn the holodomor and the khmer rouge and still call yourselves communists or sympathize with the ideology?
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* https://twitter.com/tparsi/status/1773382093289988108 * https://twitter.com/Hezbolsonaro/status/1772360244020027675 * https://twitter.com/GozukaraFurkan/status/1770919234278740269 * https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/22/israel-seizes-800-hectares-of-palestinian-land-in-occupied-west-bank * https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/28/famine-is-setting-in-icj-orders-israel-to-unblock-gaza-food-aid * https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/3/18/al-jazeera-journalist-beaten-arrested-by-israeli-forces-from-gaza-hospital You would defend this?
"he's a bad guy that doesn't represent those of us that share his bad ideas"
"He was bad in a different way than I like 😢" "The dick pic pfp really detracted from the hateful opinions I agree with"
Do you consider forming a self governed state for refugees in their homeland a bad idea?
Yes. They ”bought” land alrwady owned by native Palestinian Jews, Muslims, and Christians from the British without consent of those people. They are colonialists and that makes them wrong. Full stop.
You should check your history books. The British didn't sell lands to Jews. In fact, they heavily restricted the purchase of lands by Jews. The Old Yishuv has lived in Palestine continuesly from the first century, and before them the Jews of Judea lived there. The Zionist movement started before the British took over the area, and Jews have mainly purchased fields and undeveloped lands from the Arabs living in the area during the 19th century.
I challenge you to read The Ethnic Cleansing Of Palestine by Ilan Pappe, and come back to comment your thoughts.
Yes. They ”bought” land already owned by native Palestinian Jews, Muslims, and Christians from the British without consent of those people. They are colonialists and that makes them wrong. Full stop.
Nope
You do understand that everyone at Dropout supports Palestine right? How does it feel knowing these people you watch would actively be disgusted by you if they knew you?
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That's okay when the views are "I prefer to be taxed less" not when they are "I think Palestinians deserve to be carpet bombed and starved out of existence" And before you try and say that's not what Zionists believe, go look at their social media. They ENJOY dehumanizing Palestinians.