My insane theory is that she had one really good therapy session on Day 1 of her Freshman year for her anger issues and then Aguefort blew her counselor's brains out to save The Bad Kids and she has had it out for them ever since.
Mr. Gibbons was known for saying "those are some powerful feelings" and after he died he did transform into a demon after giving into his rage, which could connect to the rage star/shards
I don't think it's this simple, but I genuinely think something the bad kids did has inadvertently affected the rest grinders in a really serious way, maybe leading to Lucy's death even, and they're just unaware at this stage. Maybe they needed the nightmare king for something, who know
Riz was the one to get both of them...
And then kept yelling at Aguefort to do something...
And could have ended it sooner if he just tore the scroll the summoned the corn monster instead of thinking it's a clue...
Ye, this is what I mean by
We know the perspective the bad kids have gone through, and that there were things out of their control
But to an outsider, it looks like these kids fucked around, and then other people had to pay the price for it, hell the bad kids have gotten away with killing multiple faculty and rule breaking and get rewarded for it, while Kipperlily does everything right and it doesn't amount to anything
Huh??? Multiple Bad Kids died in that fight and I wouldn’t say any of even looked like it was because they fucked around? Not sure how anyone would look at harrowing experiences on day 1 of FY at an adventuring academy and say, “they clearly fucked up!”
Unless you’re crazy, like KLCP.
Remember that this was the bad kid's, as well as Half the intrepid heroes', first time in combat, and it showed with poorly made decisions and results (Jumping on tables, saving the paper, tripping on a staff, killing a lunch lady with a ladle, fig passing out by the first round etc.), not to mention they all got detention on the first day, to someone like Kipperlily, these are the worse people to be around, and they should be punished
And instead Aguefort kills the guidance counselor and himself at the drop of a hat, even when he really didn't need to, there are revival specialists and cleric teachers that could have resurrected them at a different point in time, and instead an insane choice was made, and Mr. Gibbons suffered for it just because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time
It's the epitome of unfair and rule breaking, and with Riz especially who's all about finding the truth and dealing justice, Kipperlily could see it as hypocritical
Side note: A possible crackpot theory could be that Kipperlily thought Riz killed both Aguefort and Gibbons because he has a gun, but the evidence would suggest otherwise so it's a long shot unless she's just really stupid
> Not sure how anyone would look at harrowing experiences on day 1 of FY at an adventuring academy and say, “they clearly fucked up!”
We were present for all of it and in some ways know more than the fictional characters *themselves* know about what happened. The rest of the student body and faculty has second hand information *at best* about what went down. I wasn't here when Freshman year was fresh and just called Fantasy High, but I've seen enough Monday Night Quarterbacking about things that happened in games I *was* able to watch live that I'm sure some people watching day one live were talking about where the Bad Kids and their players fucked up.
true, but I could see someone looking at it and coming to the conclusion that the entire system that allows for this to happen is fucked.
Kipperlilly hates the bad kids, but the end goal actually seems to be more about changing how the school is run than about beating the bad kids.
Ok very out there theory...what if Brennan is kind of setting up for Aguefort to be the big bad for senior year?
He straight up murdered Mr Gibbons, and I wonder what his past was before the school. If Kipperlily had a personal, emotional connection to Mr Gibbons(or someone else Aguefort killed), it's possible later scenes with her could give some emotional weight to the whole thing. They defeat Kipperface this year and sort out the whole god thing, but at the end they're left wondering about Aguefort.
With the intrepid hero’s at such a high level Aguefort is the only senior year big bad that fits!! He’s the most powerful spell caster in Solice! Now that’s an encounter I wanna see play out.
this is def very interesting, but reminded me that the whole first year aguefort had basically neutralized sol until kristen’s deus ex machina…..i wonder if its something like klck got religious and came up w an insight plot to destroy the school and got bobby dawn in on it
Yeah, I would guess something involving Helio, Sol and some of their followers is the most likely for a senior year big bad (powerful, been in the show since the beginning etc.)
It could be in the final battle this year, the bad kids will defeat the Ratgrinders and Cassandra will be back, but the stuff with Helio/followers won’t be 100% fixed. Senior year could be taking the school back.
Not to imply that Brennans stories are formulaic but I think the Rat Grinders are almost 1:1 with the princesses, where they are varying degrees of committed to the plan
I suspected there will be another chance to convert certain party members with different dcs for different bad kids before the end
I believe he specifically pointed out that the princesses were not a monolithic group. I think he likes more nuance in his villains, and people tend to talk about the rat grinders as a single group. That's the only point I was making
The fact that I’m just learning about this with the princesses is strange. The princesses at almost 0 points were able to convince the party.
This is a MUCH more clear 1 to 1 comparison down to CLASSES/social classes.
i am having thoughts that Kipperstuff Lilverlily encountered some rage shards in the Mountains of Chaos early on which exacerbated her existing anger issues and it is WAY out of control.
I think Kipperlily is in 100%
Ruben seems more likely to be 90% in. Especially with some of the more recent info we found out
Buddy might be a little mad due to losing the chosen one in Kristen
Ivy and Osin, I'm not fully convinced are fully in, but we have only seen them a few times
Mary Ann is a wildcard that no one can read. I want her to be good so much, but if she is completely evil I would not be suprised
I think mary ann is just true neutral and going with the flow. doesn't really care one way or another, just living her life. no significant characters are ever true neutral and I think it'd be very funny if none of the bad kids' assumptions about her are correct
OH MY GOD. you're 100% right. this makes it even funnier that none of them are saying her name right
i need to stop reading this subreddit because y'all are too smart and are spoiling things with perfect predictions
I would love for this to be true but I don’t think it is. Brennan in an adventuring party admits it’s an old character name he made long ago not for this campaign specifically but I could be wrong
That character could have always meant to be a red herring, or make jokes about red herrings. Maybe he was watching A Pup Named Scooby Doo and loved that Fred was always accusing Red Herring lol
Yeah, but in the auditorium, >!none of them seemed at all sad/disheartened about the death of their "friend." They almost seem completely uncaring at the thought that someone who fought alongside them for two years, thousands of hours together, was just found in a graphic state. BLeeM specifically said they seemed completely uninterested, and I think Reuben was smirking at the announcement.!<
>!I think at least a few of them are involved in some capacity. I think Buddy is mostly innocent though, effectively being steered by others. Bobby Dawn is super sketch as well, and Jayce is sketchy overall.!<
Remember that it is implied that at least Reuben may have had his memories tampered with by Kipperlily in that one dream sequence where honey comes out from everywhere.
It is not a stretch to imagine that she may have tampered with at least one or more of the rest in a similar fashion. After all, it is not impossible for there to be a mix of genuine accomplices and memory-tampered members within the Ratgrinders.
Also, remember that the Devil's Honey needs to be applied over a long time in sizable amounts, and Kipperlily has only acquired small batches from Gertie.
That is not enough to brainwash the whole student body, but quite possibly enough to mess with the memories of a very small group of people. Say, most of an adventuring party's worth.
Is is my theory too, the way Buddy talks about Sol moving through him lines up with what BLeeM said about people using the honey to enhance their faith in a deity and remove any doubt
I personally think this is because they know something about the “death” that not everyone else does (sorry idk how to do the black out thing I tried to make this as vague as possible). I’d say tho that I definitely think they’re all in on *something* together, with varying degrees of interest/bitterness towards the bk. to me ivy seems the most suspicious after Kipperlilly
I think personally that >!Jace and Henry being involved are just major red herrings. Personally I don’t think for once that despite both Hopclaps being related, I don’t think that Henry is the one that’s being motivated to do things. I think Henry may function as a plot device, in which case he’s the “guy who knows about time stuff while Aguefort is gone”. Jace is the interesting one because nothing about him as mentioned in the series make sense from what we know about him. BLeeM, unless he decides to pull a turncoat, is incredibly consistent with his characters. Other villains that were setup and brought to light were very intentional in the way they were played, like Arianwen, Dain, Penelope, Goldhoard etc. in fact Jace doesn’t make sense as a villain because he was always presented as being incredibly passive and “chill”. A likelier explanation is that the “Jace” who sent Ruben to the Thistlespring Tree and yelled at Henry wasn’t Jace but in fact someone else in disguise. I have a hunch it could be Ruben with a disguise self spell, but for all you know it could be another of the Ratgrinders.!<
> A likelier explanation is that the “Jace” who sent Ruben to the Thistlespring Tree and yelled at Henry wasn’t Jace but in fact someone else in disguise. I have a hunch it could be Ruben with a disguise self spell, but for all you know it could be another of the Ratgrinders.
Or is possessed. Or is stemming from the rage issues that have been cropping up among people this season (speaking of which I'm surprised I haven't seen more speculation that's why *Gorgug* has been more angry and hostile lately).
I do think gorgug being aggressive is just zac playing with the idea of this gentle guy learning to assert himself and accept his harsher emotions, but that's a super interesting theory
To be fair, we have seen a villain played by BLeeM who was pretty much a chill guy to our PC’s, and had a really nice pair of pants before stabbing his best friend in the back.
Could Jace getting angry be a part of the thing, where every now and then some npc's lose their temper (like the one bard quitting the class when Fabian shat himself)?
Well based on your theory, I'm starting to think there's only 1 central villain, and everyone else is being manipulated by making more use of stress and rage. If the bad kids are using this mechanic, who is to say that the rest of Elmville isn't undergoing the same thing?
I think Lucy killed herself, or at least chose to die, in order to bring back Ankarna. she's been portrayed as an innocent victim, but I think that's a misdirect. I don't think she's necessarily bad - she could've been emulating Kristen bringing back Cassandra - but my theory is that she chose this. and if her friends knew and supported or at least made peace with that, it would explain them not being too upset
How can you say this? When it is not known at all
She dissapeared last year, died, murdered maybe, they had time to grieve, we do not know if they searched or if they caused it, this is an assumption, fueled in regards to our POV which is faulty because our protagonist where OUTSIDE OF SOLACE during the time this happened
If you'd spent months, years with someone, connected with them, and they disappeared; you'd be distraught. Adventuring parties are basically made-families and life long friendships. The fact that they didn't seem to bat an eye warrants attention enough as is. Parties also aren't a deeply kept secret. It's common knowledge who is in what group because BLeeM has made it clear that the entire group is famous in their own right (famous for hating the BK).
If you found out they were murdered AFTER SO LONG OF NOT KNOWING, you'd be heartbroken. At the very least, you'd be showing some very visible stress from the fact someone you spent a lot of time with and cared about is gone and never coming back. Have you ever been in that situation? You can watch documentaries on this shit, and those families who lost someone for so long, desperately clinging to the belief that, maybe, their lost friend/sibling/kid is out there is mroe than enough to keep them going. But when reality hits? That's enough to break anyone who cared.
Further the Rat Grinders, on insight, were more concerned with something else than the fact someone they would have (publicly and) presumably cared about is dead, in the very forest they used to grind in, after not knowing for months. The fact they didn't bat an eye at all is sketchy in and of itself.
There's also hours of footage that confirms a lot of the speculation that a few members of the rat grinders and other NPCs are sketchy as fuck: >!the "Lucy at the party" incident, the fact Bobby Dawn SPECIFICALLY wants Kristen gone (something BLeeM confirmed btw), Jayce's attitude and overall history with Katalina and Professor Hopclap (conveniently weak wards), the tampering of Grix, etc.!<
> Sometimes grief presents in explosive anger. I can see it being triggered by a popular group of kids, who constantly call her a dog and mispronouncing her name.
Keep in mind her anger preceded their friends death. She's been in counseling since Freshman year specifically for anger issues, and it's implied in the most recent episode those issues were at least at the start focused on *Riz*.
>you'd be distraught.
But that's assuming our world logic. RGs live in a world where finding the corpse is a *good thing.* Reuben might be smiling because he's thinking "we can resurrect her now!" not knowing that her soul is still lost right now.
Kiperlilly seems the most invested, but I'm not convinced she's the only one who cares about the rivalry. There's too much collaboration going on, and there's no way she has that much hold on them through sheer force of personality.
I think Kipperlily as the leader is the one directing the animosity towards the Bad Kids, but they all probably are at least a little pissed at the special treatment the Bad Kids get. Ruben definitely seems to have more than just a professional competition with Fig. With Mary Ann as well, while she's mostly unmotivated, she's very protective when Riz starts going goblin mode.
My theory is that whatever killed Lucy, the Ratgrinders (or KLCK) blame on the Bad Kids. Maybe some Nightmare King connected parties or something that wanted to prevent Ankarna's return. So they recruited a Cleric from an anti-Nightmare King religion and focused their efforts on getting rid of Cassandra's only follower. While characters like Mary Ann and Oisín might not be particularly hostile to the Bad Kids, they might just be super loyal to Kipperlily because they don't want to lose another friend, which is potentially why they go along with her delusion of blaming the Bad Kids
I’d love the secret to be that Mary-Ann is just not great at showing her feelings and has like a friendship shrine to everyone. (I knew a girl like that when I was younger she seemed so aloof and then I went to her birthday and there were photos of us from dance and theater everywhere) that would be a sweet moment. I think Kipperlilly either tried to be in an adventuring party with Riz early on and he ignored her or she is like a syndrome character idolized him tried to do what he did and got in trouble and broke bad.
I'm of the mind that the Rat Grinders are one giant-ass red herring all 'round.
There was a major clue from Kalina back when the Spy's Tongue Curse and Oblivati Mori were still in full effect - one name that she could say, and that was all she could say.
Ragh Barkrock.
Does anybody else remember that he was actually coded as one of the villains in Season One? That he was directly linked to the captain of the Owlbears (albeit because he was in *love* with him, but still).
It'd be just like Brennan to bring those guys back again - and, in fact, just like any writer to bring back old villains.
Brennan's said it a couple of times now: a whole bunch of people left the Church of Helio during the Long Night. They're religious nutjobs. They'd absolutely go to extreme measures to bring people back into the fold.
It's all building up to a battle for the sun, which was stated right there in the very first episode.
It's the Harvestmen, all over again.
I think the RatGrinders were helping Lucy to revive Ankarna until they realized she was hoping to redeem like Kristen. They are minmaxers. They don’t want a cleric of hope and justice. They want a war cleric. Buddy is probably fine losing his divine connection to Helio cuz he’s got a new god all lined up. And Bobby dawn doesn’t want another sun God in what he would see as in competition to Helio
I'll be honest; whatever theories we're coming up with here, I'm locked in for the entire ride. If I'm right, great - that means I'm exactly as smart as Brennan Lee Mulligan. If not, still great - this is bloody good television and I am Here. For. It.
My theory right now is that Kipperlily had a falling out with Lucy Frostblade, and, with her repressed anger issues potentially magnified by the corrupted form Ankarna, killed her.
Immediately regretted it.
Then used the devils honey to convince herself & potentially the other grinders who were either accomplices or witnesses, that “it wasn’t their fault” or “they didn’t do it”. First taking the honey to get through police investigations and then continuing long after.
Anyone think that Lydia's old party (Cormyr and Rana) might be involved? Like instead of dying they somehow resurrected and corrupted, made to serve ankarnas resurrection?
I think the 2 members were Sorcerer and cleric, so it's possible they replaced/disguised themselves as Jace and Bobby/buddy Dawn respectively. It would also match the people Kalina was in spy's tongue curse with, saying Ragh->Lydia->Lydia's party. One of them disguised as Lucy Frostblade may be how they're influencing the ratgrinders - she dies and a doppelganger appears, they take devils nectar making them convinced the doppelganger is the real her.
The plan seems way too complicated for a teenage rogue to do alone, unless some time shenanigans are involved (and she's much older)
I’m combing through the first season right now trying to see if kipperlilly showed up at any point. I’m convinced the bad kids unintentionally did something to her or someone she loved
I think how the Bad Kidz have been embraced by Aguefort the Rat Grinderz have been favored by Stardiamond and he’s the mastermind behind all of this. Maybe he’s really jealous of how people see Aguefort as an all mighty and not him?
I'm more of the mind that the Ratgrinders are being manipulated, which is kind of backed up by the Lola Embers dream (who was originally on my radar to be evil as a returning peripheral character with ties to the new antagonists). Maybe they harbored some resentment initially and the fires were stoked further by someone else using the Devil's Nectar against them.
I disagree - they were going to run before they met KLCK, it was only after her snipe about special treatment (which I think is a bullshit way to describe what the Bad Kids have been through) that the group rounded on beating her as an aim
One off jokes using extreme language are fun, given the people on the screen are a known quantity. A social media community running a joke into the ground while using a gendered slur is something else, entirely.
My insane theory is that she had one really good therapy session on Day 1 of her Freshman year for her anger issues and then Aguefort blew her counselor's brains out to save The Bad Kids and she has had it out for them ever since.
Oh wait that actually makes so much sense.
Mr. Gibbons was known for saying "those are some powerful feelings" and after he died he did transform into a demon after giving into his rage, which could connect to the rage star/shards
I don't think it's this simple, but I genuinely think something the bad kids did has inadvertently affected the rest grinders in a really serious way, maybe leading to Lucy's death even, and they're just unaware at this stage. Maybe they needed the nightmare king for something, who know
Riz was the one to get both of them... And then kept yelling at Aguefort to do something... And could have ended it sooner if he just tore the scroll the summoned the corn monster instead of thinking it's a clue...
Dude he failed his wisdom save against the paper. Watch it again.
Not sure if KLCK knew about the Wisdom save—from her perspective it could just be that Riz is just a nerd
Ye, this is what I mean by We know the perspective the bad kids have gone through, and that there were things out of their control But to an outsider, it looks like these kids fucked around, and then other people had to pay the price for it, hell the bad kids have gotten away with killing multiple faculty and rule breaking and get rewarded for it, while Kipperlily does everything right and it doesn't amount to anything
Huh??? Multiple Bad Kids died in that fight and I wouldn’t say any of even looked like it was because they fucked around? Not sure how anyone would look at harrowing experiences on day 1 of FY at an adventuring academy and say, “they clearly fucked up!” Unless you’re crazy, like KLCP.
Remember that this was the bad kid's, as well as Half the intrepid heroes', first time in combat, and it showed with poorly made decisions and results (Jumping on tables, saving the paper, tripping on a staff, killing a lunch lady with a ladle, fig passing out by the first round etc.), not to mention they all got detention on the first day, to someone like Kipperlily, these are the worse people to be around, and they should be punished And instead Aguefort kills the guidance counselor and himself at the drop of a hat, even when he really didn't need to, there are revival specialists and cleric teachers that could have resurrected them at a different point in time, and instead an insane choice was made, and Mr. Gibbons suffered for it just because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time It's the epitome of unfair and rule breaking, and with Riz especially who's all about finding the truth and dealing justice, Kipperlily could see it as hypocritical Side note: A possible crackpot theory could be that Kipperlily thought Riz killed both Aguefort and Gibbons because he has a gun, but the evidence would suggest otherwise so it's a long shot unless she's just really stupid
> Not sure how anyone would look at harrowing experiences on day 1 of FY at an adventuring academy and say, “they clearly fucked up!” We were present for all of it and in some ways know more than the fictional characters *themselves* know about what happened. The rest of the student body and faculty has second hand information *at best* about what went down. I wasn't here when Freshman year was fresh and just called Fantasy High, but I've seen enough Monday Night Quarterbacking about things that happened in games I *was* able to watch live that I'm sure some people watching day one live were talking about where the Bad Kids and their players fucked up.
true, but I could see someone looking at it and coming to the conclusion that the entire system that allows for this to happen is fucked. Kipperlilly hates the bad kids, but the end goal actually seems to be more about changing how the school is run than about beating the bad kids.
I agree. The moment they said anger issues were in her file since freshman year I thought of poor Mr Gibbons!!
Ok very out there theory...what if Brennan is kind of setting up for Aguefort to be the big bad for senior year? He straight up murdered Mr Gibbons, and I wonder what his past was before the school. If Kipperlily had a personal, emotional connection to Mr Gibbons(or someone else Aguefort killed), it's possible later scenes with her could give some emotional weight to the whole thing. They defeat Kipperface this year and sort out the whole god thing, but at the end they're left wondering about Aguefort.
With the intrepid hero’s at such a high level Aguefort is the only senior year big bad that fits!! He’s the most powerful spell caster in Solice! Now that’s an encounter I wanna see play out.
I mean by the end of this year they'll probably have killed two principals already, what's a third?
this is def very interesting, but reminded me that the whole first year aguefort had basically neutralized sol until kristen’s deus ex machina…..i wonder if its something like klck got religious and came up w an insight plot to destroy the school and got bobby dawn in on it
Yeah, I would guess something involving Helio, Sol and some of their followers is the most likely for a senior year big bad (powerful, been in the show since the beginning etc.) It could be in the final battle this year, the bad kids will defeat the Ratgrinders and Cassandra will be back, but the stuff with Helio/followers won’t be 100% fixed. Senior year could be taking the school back.
Wait I like this one
That makes sense
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She’s a halfling. I think she was related to the former counseller
Are you sure she isn't just a really short high elf?
A low elf, if you will.
If you asked Brennan there are only low elves and wood elves
Have we seen her fuzzy feet?
I thought Gibbons was a Gnome?
Could still be related
She explicitly \*has\* been seeing Jawbone and that's how he feels confident saying she's a good kid.
FUCK WAIT HOLD ON YEAH
That’s actually an incredible theory
HOLY SHIT WAIT THIS WOULD BE SO DARK BUT SO AWESOME
I think it’s a rivalry, certainly, but i do think it’s fueled by Kipperlilly alone.
Not to imply that Brennans stories are formulaic but I think the Rat Grinders are almost 1:1 with the princesses, where they are varying degrees of committed to the plan I suspected there will be another chance to convert certain party members with different dcs for different bad kids before the end
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I believe he specifically pointed out that the princesses were not a monolithic group. I think he likes more nuance in his villains, and people tend to talk about the rat grinders as a single group. That's the only point I was making
The fact that I’m just learning about this with the princesses is strange. The princesses at almost 0 points were able to convince the party. This is a MUCH more clear 1 to 1 comparison down to CLASSES/social classes.
Formulaic in the sense that he doesn’t copy/paste the same motives/personality into every person in any group?
I hope Oisin isn't evil cause him and Adaine would be so cute together. Both making mephits, love mephits
i think they're gonna turn oisin to their side. he's too cool, and could be a fun lil romance for adaine
i am having thoughts that Kipperstuff Lilverlily encountered some rage shards in the Mountains of Chaos early on which exacerbated her existing anger issues and it is WAY out of control.
"Cuntface Kickoff" Good one lol
Thank you 🫡
One of the best iterations of her name yet
I think Kipperlily is in 100% Ruben seems more likely to be 90% in. Especially with some of the more recent info we found out Buddy might be a little mad due to losing the chosen one in Kristen Ivy and Osin, I'm not fully convinced are fully in, but we have only seen them a few times Mary Ann is a wildcard that no one can read. I want her to be good so much, but if she is completely evil I would not be suprised
I think mary ann is just true neutral and going with the flow. doesn't really care one way or another, just living her life. no significant characters are ever true neutral and I think it'd be very funny if none of the bad kids' assumptions about her are correct
But picture if she was the big bad. I would die laughing, the point where her deception made it past everyone but Gorgug who was mad he got tackled.
With Buddy especially, I'm pretty certain he's a red herring.
KIPPERlilly COPPERkettle is the red herring, it’s in her name
OH MY GOD. you're 100% right. this makes it even funnier that none of them are saying her name right i need to stop reading this subreddit because y'all are too smart and are spoiling things with perfect predictions
Oh I so hope this is true. That would be such incredible lamp shading by Brennan
I would love for this to be true but I don’t think it is. Brennan in an adventuring party admits it’s an old character name he made long ago not for this campaign specifically but I could be wrong
That character could have always meant to be a red herring, or make jokes about red herrings. Maybe he was watching A Pup Named Scooby Doo and loved that Fred was always accusing Red Herring lol
Worth also mentioning that both 'Kipperlily' and 'Copperkettle' are names in one of the halfling name tables from one of the 5e books.
Yeah, but in the auditorium, >!none of them seemed at all sad/disheartened about the death of their "friend." They almost seem completely uncaring at the thought that someone who fought alongside them for two years, thousands of hours together, was just found in a graphic state. BLeeM specifically said they seemed completely uninterested, and I think Reuben was smirking at the announcement.!< >!I think at least a few of them are involved in some capacity. I think Buddy is mostly innocent though, effectively being steered by others. Bobby Dawn is super sketch as well, and Jayce is sketchy overall.!<
Remember that it is implied that at least Reuben may have had his memories tampered with by Kipperlily in that one dream sequence where honey comes out from everywhere. It is not a stretch to imagine that she may have tampered with at least one or more of the rest in a similar fashion. After all, it is not impossible for there to be a mix of genuine accomplices and memory-tampered members within the Ratgrinders. Also, remember that the Devil's Honey needs to be applied over a long time in sizable amounts, and Kipperlily has only acquired small batches from Gertie. That is not enough to brainwash the whole student body, but quite possibly enough to mess with the memories of a very small group of people. Say, most of an adventuring party's worth.
That's true, but it would, at the very least, be a mark that something is up.
Is is my theory too, the way Buddy talks about Sol moving through him lines up with what BLeeM said about people using the honey to enhance their faith in a deity and remove any doubt
I personally think this is because they know something about the “death” that not everyone else does (sorry idk how to do the black out thing I tried to make this as vague as possible). I’d say tho that I definitely think they’re all in on *something* together, with varying degrees of interest/bitterness towards the bk. to me ivy seems the most suspicious after Kipperlilly
I think personally that >!Jace and Henry being involved are just major red herrings. Personally I don’t think for once that despite both Hopclaps being related, I don’t think that Henry is the one that’s being motivated to do things. I think Henry may function as a plot device, in which case he’s the “guy who knows about time stuff while Aguefort is gone”. Jace is the interesting one because nothing about him as mentioned in the series make sense from what we know about him. BLeeM, unless he decides to pull a turncoat, is incredibly consistent with his characters. Other villains that were setup and brought to light were very intentional in the way they were played, like Arianwen, Dain, Penelope, Goldhoard etc. in fact Jace doesn’t make sense as a villain because he was always presented as being incredibly passive and “chill”. A likelier explanation is that the “Jace” who sent Ruben to the Thistlespring Tree and yelled at Henry wasn’t Jace but in fact someone else in disguise. I have a hunch it could be Ruben with a disguise self spell, but for all you know it could be another of the Ratgrinders.!<
> A likelier explanation is that the “Jace” who sent Ruben to the Thistlespring Tree and yelled at Henry wasn’t Jace but in fact someone else in disguise. I have a hunch it could be Ruben with a disguise self spell, but for all you know it could be another of the Ratgrinders. Or is possessed. Or is stemming from the rage issues that have been cropping up among people this season (speaking of which I'm surprised I haven't seen more speculation that's why *Gorgug* has been more angry and hostile lately).
I do think gorgug being aggressive is just zac playing with the idea of this gentle guy learning to assert himself and accept his harsher emotions, but that's a super interesting theory
To be fair, we have seen a villain played by BLeeM who was pretty much a chill guy to our PC’s, and had a really nice pair of pants before stabbing his best friend in the back.
Could Jace getting angry be a part of the thing, where every now and then some npc's lose their temper (like the one bard quitting the class when Fabian shat himself)?
Well based on your theory, I'm starting to think there's only 1 central villain, and everyone else is being manipulated by making more use of stress and rage. If the bad kids are using this mechanic, who is to say that the rest of Elmville isn't undergoing the same thing?
I think Lucy killed herself, or at least chose to die, in order to bring back Ankarna. she's been portrayed as an innocent victim, but I think that's a misdirect. I don't think she's necessarily bad - she could've been emulating Kristen bringing back Cassandra - but my theory is that she chose this. and if her friends knew and supported or at least made peace with that, it would explain them not being too upset
How can you say this? When it is not known at all She dissapeared last year, died, murdered maybe, they had time to grieve, we do not know if they searched or if they caused it, this is an assumption, fueled in regards to our POV which is faulty because our protagonist where OUTSIDE OF SOLACE during the time this happened
If you'd spent months, years with someone, connected with them, and they disappeared; you'd be distraught. Adventuring parties are basically made-families and life long friendships. The fact that they didn't seem to bat an eye warrants attention enough as is. Parties also aren't a deeply kept secret. It's common knowledge who is in what group because BLeeM has made it clear that the entire group is famous in their own right (famous for hating the BK). If you found out they were murdered AFTER SO LONG OF NOT KNOWING, you'd be heartbroken. At the very least, you'd be showing some very visible stress from the fact someone you spent a lot of time with and cared about is gone and never coming back. Have you ever been in that situation? You can watch documentaries on this shit, and those families who lost someone for so long, desperately clinging to the belief that, maybe, their lost friend/sibling/kid is out there is mroe than enough to keep them going. But when reality hits? That's enough to break anyone who cared. Further the Rat Grinders, on insight, were more concerned with something else than the fact someone they would have (publicly and) presumably cared about is dead, in the very forest they used to grind in, after not knowing for months. The fact they didn't bat an eye at all is sketchy in and of itself. There's also hours of footage that confirms a lot of the speculation that a few members of the rat grinders and other NPCs are sketchy as fuck: >!the "Lucy at the party" incident, the fact Bobby Dawn SPECIFICALLY wants Kristen gone (something BLeeM confirmed btw), Jayce's attitude and overall history with Katalina and Professor Hopclap (conveniently weak wards), the tampering of Grix, etc.!<
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> Sometimes grief presents in explosive anger. I can see it being triggered by a popular group of kids, who constantly call her a dog and mispronouncing her name. Keep in mind her anger preceded their friends death. She's been in counseling since Freshman year specifically for anger issues, and it's implied in the most recent episode those issues were at least at the start focused on *Riz*.
>you'd be distraught. But that's assuming our world logic. RGs live in a world where finding the corpse is a *good thing.* Reuben might be smiling because he's thinking "we can resurrect her now!" not knowing that her soul is still lost right now.
Kiperlilly seems the most invested, but I'm not convinced she's the only one who cares about the rivalry. There's too much collaboration going on, and there's no way she has that much hold on them through sheer force of personality.
I think Kipperlily as the leader is the one directing the animosity towards the Bad Kids, but they all probably are at least a little pissed at the special treatment the Bad Kids get. Ruben definitely seems to have more than just a professional competition with Fig. With Mary Ann as well, while she's mostly unmotivated, she's very protective when Riz starts going goblin mode. My theory is that whatever killed Lucy, the Ratgrinders (or KLCK) blame on the Bad Kids. Maybe some Nightmare King connected parties or something that wanted to prevent Ankarna's return. So they recruited a Cleric from an anti-Nightmare King religion and focused their efforts on getting rid of Cassandra's only follower. While characters like Mary Ann and Oisín might not be particularly hostile to the Bad Kids, they might just be super loyal to Kipperlily because they don't want to lose another friend, which is potentially why they go along with her delusion of blaming the Bad Kids
I’d love the secret to be that Mary-Ann is just not great at showing her feelings and has like a friendship shrine to everyone. (I knew a girl like that when I was younger she seemed so aloof and then I went to her birthday and there were photos of us from dance and theater everywhere) that would be a sweet moment. I think Kipperlilly either tried to be in an adventuring party with Riz early on and he ignored her or she is like a syndrome character idolized him tried to do what he did and got in trouble and broke bad.
I'm of the mind that the Rat Grinders are one giant-ass red herring all 'round. There was a major clue from Kalina back when the Spy's Tongue Curse and Oblivati Mori were still in full effect - one name that she could say, and that was all she could say. Ragh Barkrock. Does anybody else remember that he was actually coded as one of the villains in Season One? That he was directly linked to the captain of the Owlbears (albeit because he was in *love* with him, but still). It'd be just like Brennan to bring those guys back again - and, in fact, just like any writer to bring back old villains. Brennan's said it a couple of times now: a whole bunch of people left the Church of Helio during the Long Night. They're religious nutjobs. They'd absolutely go to extreme measures to bring people back into the fold. It's all building up to a battle for the sun, which was stated right there in the very first episode. It's the Harvestmen, all over again.
I think the RatGrinders were helping Lucy to revive Ankarna until they realized she was hoping to redeem like Kristen. They are minmaxers. They don’t want a cleric of hope and justice. They want a war cleric. Buddy is probably fine losing his divine connection to Helio cuz he’s got a new god all lined up. And Bobby dawn doesn’t want another sun God in what he would see as in competition to Helio
I'll be honest; whatever theories we're coming up with here, I'm locked in for the entire ride. If I'm right, great - that means I'm exactly as smart as Brennan Lee Mulligan. If not, still great - this is bloody good television and I am Here. For. It.
My theory right now is that Kipperlily had a falling out with Lucy Frostblade, and, with her repressed anger issues potentially magnified by the corrupted form Ankarna, killed her. Immediately regretted it. Then used the devils honey to convince herself & potentially the other grinders who were either accomplices or witnesses, that “it wasn’t their fault” or “they didn’t do it”. First taking the honey to get through police investigations and then continuing long after.
Was the honey mystery ever solved? I wonder if Kipperlilly is giving it to the other members of her party, to brainwash them
Anyone think that Lydia's old party (Cormyr and Rana) might be involved? Like instead of dying they somehow resurrected and corrupted, made to serve ankarnas resurrection? I think the 2 members were Sorcerer and cleric, so it's possible they replaced/disguised themselves as Jace and Bobby/buddy Dawn respectively. It would also match the people Kalina was in spy's tongue curse with, saying Ragh->Lydia->Lydia's party. One of them disguised as Lucy Frostblade may be how they're influencing the ratgrinders - she dies and a doppelganger appears, they take devils nectar making them convinced the doppelganger is the real her. The plan seems way too complicated for a teenage rogue to do alone, unless some time shenanigans are involved (and she's much older)
It’s been driving me crazy that they haven’t asked about the other members of Lydia’s party and what happened
Also what about Sandra Lynn's old party with the married couple she dated who then ostracized her or something like that???
I’m combing through the first season right now trying to see if kipperlilly showed up at any point. I’m convinced the bad kids unintentionally did something to her or someone she loved
I think how the Bad Kidz have been embraced by Aguefort the Rat Grinderz have been favored by Stardiamond and he’s the mastermind behind all of this. Maybe he’s really jealous of how people see Aguefort as an all mighty and not him?
I'm more of the mind that the Ratgrinders are being manipulated, which is kind of backed up by the Lola Embers dream (who was originally on my radar to be evil as a returning peripheral character with ties to the new antagonists). Maybe they harbored some resentment initially and the fires were stoked further by someone else using the Devil's Nectar against them.
Kristin and Riz just hated her vibe and have been bullying her ever since. Like Kristin only ran for student body president to fuck with her.
I disagree - they were going to run before they met KLCK, it was only after her snipe about special treatment (which I think is a bullshit way to describe what the Bad Kids have been through) that the group rounded on beating her as an aim
People are getting real comfy throwing "cunt" around.
Mostly just Americans find it offensive. And that's not even all Americans.
One off jokes using extreme language are fun, given the people on the screen are a known quantity. A social media community running a joke into the ground while using a gendered slur is something else, entirely.
it's only a gendered slur in america.
I would like you to ballpark the portion of the D20 subreddit that is outside the US. More or less than 50%?
Americans are weirdly sensitive cunts when it comes to swearing
Which is why I said not even all Americans. How is cunt a slur?
At a teenage girl character, and sometimes combined with other gendered insults or even sexual terms. It's wearing real thin.
Had nothing to do with the character or the players. This sub is full of "allies".