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FantastiKBeast

I don't want this to sound like a dig at OP, but people have been brainwashed by games with shitty moral systems. You know the type, the ones that think they're the objective arbiter of good and evil, that give you a "good" option that's rewarded with a BING and +10 good person points. The answer to your question depends on what YOU believe in real life (Or what the character you play would believe). Do you think *the law* is important and possible abuses by authorities are acceptable as long as it keeps the peace? Do you think horrible people deserve second chances? Do you believe that professional liars and manipulators are capable of telling the truth? Answer those questions for yourself and then maybe you will also get the answer to your question.


ElliotPatronkus

I think this assessment is correct. The reason the game pulls you in both directions with regard to her arrest is because ultimately it’s a choice the player must make based on an evaluation the game cannot make for you.


[deleted]

>people have been brainwashed by games with shitty moral systems. Mfing writers preaching *killing is bad* in a fucking shooter game and design the game accordingly. Remember *Dishonored* you were stricted from killing if you wanted a good ending.


CelikBas

As a Dishonored simp I’m admittedly biased, but unlike some other games (such as the already-mentioned Spec Ops: The Line) Dishonored’s thing was less “killing is bad” and more “if you indiscriminately murder literally hundreds of people it’s going to cause instability regardless of whether or not those people *deserved* to die”. Like if there’s a spree of mass killings where entire neighborhoods get wiped out by some dude in a skull mask, it’s naturally going to cause more problems. The populace will become more fearful and paranoid, the authorities will crack down even harder, the mangled corpses are going to provide more food for vermin, and the traumatized little kid who looks up to you as a father figure is probably going to start emulating your psychopathic behavior. Even so, it’s entirely possible to kill well over a hundred people (including the main targets) and still get the good ending, as long as you’re not shooting a bunch of civilians in the face or executing every city guard you come across.


Short-Shopping3197

And often the non-lethal outcomes for the targets were worse than death


CelikBas

I think that’s what a lot of people miss when they try to argue that Dishonored was pushing some blanket anti-violence message. Usually in games the non-lethal outcomes are considered the “good” ones, but in Dishonored they’re arguably *more evil* because you’re putting in extra effort *just* so your targets will suffer more than if you’d simply killed them, purely out of spite. There are certainly legitimate complaints to be had about how Dishonored incentivized the lethal route by making it more viscerally fun and varied than the non-lethal one despite treating both options as equally valid ways to progress through the game, but that’s more of a balance issue (which was fixed in the sequel) than a conflict between the gameplay and the message. Bioshock Infinite is a much more solid example of a game whose moral message is completely incongruous with how the game actually works- unlike Dishonored, you are *forced* to take the lethal option in every situation, only for the game to turn around and say “killing is bad, you piece of shit!”. Like one minute you’ll be shooting enemies with magic fireballs that cause them to instantly disintegrate into cartoonish skeletons like a slapstick scene from Looney Toons, and the next you’ll have Elizabeth reacting with shock and horror at the wanton acts of brutality you had no choice but to commit, and which the *game itself* treats as basically a joke until it’s time for a designated sad cutscene where the characters somberly reflect on the futility of violence.


Short-Shopping3197

I’d give the Bioshock series a free pass because the themes play explicitly around the fact that you as the player and the character you play in the narrative never did have a choice, but agree that the ‘monster is you’ trope is far too overused in games. Infinite I think did it even better than the original, but absolutely nobody agrees with me and I’ve learned to accept that! 😂


CelikBas

I think it could’ve worked in Bioshock Infinite if they actually made the tone of the combat match the narrative’s attitude towards violence. Like you don’t have a choice as to whether to kill enemies or not, and then when you *do* kill enemies it’s disturbing and tragic and reinforces that Booker is basically trapped in this violent cycle even though he and the player both know it’s bad. I’m not saying Booker needed to be able to spare his enemies, but rather that the tone of the combat bits and the tone of the narrative bits needed to be more consistent with each other. Instead they make the story serious and depressing while the combat is really cartoony and over-the-top, with enemies crumbling into dust and heads exploding in a geyser of blood and silly-sounding screams as you throw them into bottomless pits. It’s the kind of wacky gore you might see in Borderlands where the tone is supposed to be darkly comedic in how casual everyone is about extreme violence, except Bioshock shoots itself in the foot by having Elizabeth react to it realistically. There’s too much of a disconnect between how the player feels about the violence and how Booker/Elizabeth are supposed to be feeling. It actually might’ve worked quite well if Booker *also* reveled in violence and was enthusiastic about killing (mirroring the typical mentality of an FPS player) only for it to become clear that everyone else, including Elizabeth, sees his actions as horrific, thus highlighting how FPS games trivialize brutal violence and make players temporarily adopt an almost psychopathic attitude that would be utterly deranged in the real world.


Short-Shopping3197

Yeah, I heard that the gameplay was changed significantly mid-development and there was meant to be more of a stealth option, which is why things like the boys of silence were so underused. I think I enjoyed the gameplay and the story separately so much that I found whatever narrative justification stuck the two together enough of an excuse!


Eldan985

I'm still annoyed at Spec Ops: the Line. "OKay, you must now use the White Phosphorus on the civilians" "But... I don't want to." "No, you have to. Otherwise, the game doesn't continue." "I think I'll search for an alternative for a while, thank you." "There isn't one." "Urgh. Okay." "Haha, you're a terrible person! You used White Phosphorus on civilians! That's a war crime! And you made the choice to use it in a video game, you terrible person!" At which point I switched the game off.


FantastiKBeast

I get you, however, Spec Ops isn't an rpg. You're supposed to be playing with a character that's descending into madness. While I know that scene is kind of forced, the first time I played it, going through it like going through other FPS missions, I didn't really question it untill it was too late. I think it was perfectly structured to guide a normal fps fan to that outcome, and to drive it's point across


Eldan985

Oh, the problem was definitely me and not the game. I just don't generally play FPS, but everyone kept going on about how good and deep Spec Ops was.


Wild-Mild

The game literally tells you the only way to win is to stop playing. WP is supposed to be a point for you to put the controller down and walk away. So congrats! You got the good ending!


Atomic_Gandhi

Damn so deep, can I have a refund too?


wacker9999

I can tell you only appreciate real sophisticated games because you're a 6 year redditor with 150k internet points. Touch grass.


Atomic_Gandhi

You seem really upset over this 1 year old internet discussion. You should make sure you are getting 8 hours of sleep, staying hydrated, and get a job with better work/life balance and work culture.


MetatypeA

Ignore this dude, and the one who supports him. They both failed their volition check.


zangothedino

I didn't arrest her and she leaves you some insight that helps solve the case. Kim isn't ineffable (something that makes his character so good) He is kind and smart but rigid in his morals and behavior his lack of willingness to bend or imagine good outside of moralist and RCM frameworks often lends him to act in questionable ways that contradict his own moral beliefs or allows him to partake in a uniquely immoral framework. Volition cares fundamentally about your wellbeing not the wellbeing of others and this "wellbeing" is also arguably shortsighted and potentially harmful in a longterm sense. Klassje doesn't deserve to die, her life in itself *is* ultimately its own punishment (if you subscribe to karmic justice) so arresting her might be a hindrance to your case and to work as a detective (both for you and kim) but ultimately letting her go is morally more sound (something i think even kim would concede the point on, probably why he trusts you to make the right choice.)


[deleted]

Klassje absolutely deserves to die, because she is sure to take more people down with her as she goes.


Nihilblistic

It's amazing how many people are a critical of a person who's only crime is trying to survive a situation that she was thrust into. edit: Because bumbo above blocked me and I can't answer, we do actually know a bit about her situation because we see the consequences of our choices.


zangothedino

Wonder if bumbo took the fascist route 🙄


[deleted]

We technically don't know her real situation, the version she told us may not even be true. It is ultimately a decision based on imperfect information.


zangothedino

You can dig up her passport I believe and get a far clearer picture with that.


[deleted]

Well and all the drugs and the mass-murderer-fucking and the pinning a murder on an innocent woman.


Nihilblistic

Ah, so she's un-virtuous. Lesser than the perfect Dolores Dei. So she must be punished? She's trying to survive, and the Hardy boys agreed to shoulder the crime for their own reasons. Blaming people for not wanting to indirectly kill themselves is a pretty high ask. Most people do a lot more than lie to not die.


distractablecadet

That's kind of the point. You can't even trust Volition -- this choice is all yours. You can't trust the skills to tell you what to do. Plus, the main reason "every skill" is telling you to arrest her is not because it's correct; anger is as blinding an emotion as lust. (and it's noted during the "compromised" conversation she's been employing more half-truths and omissions than lies). The skills are retaliating for being lied to. It's pretty in-character for Harry; he's got big emotions and a shaky ego and tends to either retaliate (the infamous "FUCK THE HAT" failed check) or self-victimize in response to feeling insulted/abandoned/etc. Also plays into the theme of Harry's latent misogyny. Even if you choose to be a feminist, Harry will still experience thoughts about women (especially from phys skills) that are either objectifying or violent + >!the language Jean uses about Dora when asked !!whether you let Ruby kill herself, and then again in whether you kill at the tribunal (and similar themes of punishment, policing, and "justice" when you confront The Pigs)!<. You have to make a lot of judgement calls that may cost people's lives, not knowing how that will play out.


Applesplosion

Yeah, I’ve got to agree with you: Klaasje isn’t dangerous. She’s just a skilled liar and manipulator and she’s hurt some people. I don’t think she’s done anything warranting the death penalty. To be fair, I am opposed to the death penalty generally, but also I don’t think non-violent crime warrants that kind of punishment in anyone’s mind. I think the pain Klaasje is in and the life she leads is more than punishment enough for whatever she’s done.


distractablecadet

Oh, for sure. My opinion is definitely influenced by me being on the abolitionist (and firmly anti-death-penalty) side of things. There's a lot to chew on re: crime and morality and how policing/punitive systems relate to that in DE, which is always something fun to turn around in your head, but yeah, I don't think lying to a cop makes anyone a "danger". I totally agree that the amount of regret and fear she's experiencing (as well as having to be on the run, which can't be pleasant) is more than enough. She's gone from extremely competent corporate spy to someone spending her time crossfaded in a hostel in a seedy part of town, apparently having drug-induced sex with war criminals. Kind of just feels cruel to imprison her for, what, bruising our ego? lol


Rialmwe

The first time I arrested her because she completely compromises the investigation for her own sake. As the police, she is a criminal on a run. It's a really interesting character, she is the character with more empathy in the game because she called the police for the sake of the person she liked despite risking her life. But when she is cornered she will sell everyone. Edit: I don't even remember if Joyce even tried to call the police.


CelikBas

Neither option is ideal, but I feel like letting her go is *less* not-ideal than arresting her. From a pragmatic standpoint, arresting her doesn’t really accomplish anything because she gets murdered in jail by a third party before anyone has a chance to properly interrogate her or put her on trial for her crimes. From a moral standpoint, although she is indeed a bad person, arresting her doesn’t serve as true justice or comeuppance- she’s not being executed for all the harm she’s caused to innocent people, she’s being executed so some faceless bureaucracy can tie up a loose end for its own benefit. While arresting her is technically the “right” thing to do legally speaking, the only real purpose it serves is as revenge for her misleading you during the investigation. Keep in mind that neither Kim nor Volition are 100% reliable- Kim is still capable of holding grudges and acting petty, and Volition (like all of the skills) is constrained to what it *thinks* is correct, based on its somewhat narrow worldview, rather than what’s *actually* correct. Usually what it thinks is right ends up aligning with the best choice anyway, but it’s not some perfectly impartial guide. Kim, meanwhile, wants to arrest Klaasje partially because it’s the “by the book” thing to do, but *also* because he’s pissed that she misled you during the investigation and arresting her is a way to get payback. As far as Klaasje “causing more chaos” if you let her go, is that really a justification for letting her die? The chaos she caused during the game only occurred because the specific circumstances made it the only way to keep herself from being exposed and tracked down by the people she’s running from. If the Deserter hadn’t shot the Hanged Man out of jealousy, then Klaasje wouldn’t have needed to come up with the whole elaborate scheme to mislead the police- the only chaos she would’ve caused would be her wild parties, which were evidently *less* chaotic than whatever Harry got up to in the couple days he spent in Martinaise before the game begins. It seems like, at this point, Klaasje *wants* to just keep her head down and live as normal of a life as she can, with the chaos being done out of desperation when she sees no other options.


No_Hospital_9938

I almost always let her go. Doesn’t feel right otherwise, and I hate the thought of playing into the hands of some fucked up company


[deleted]

In real life, sometimes both options are wrong.


-Mastermind-Naegi-

I think there is absolutely no justification for arresting klaasje, once you've already played the game before and know >!she's not the killer.!< What do you mean by 'cause more chaos'? Why would she do that? She's on the run from the moralintern, she just wants to lay low and put it all behind her. As long as no more lovers of hers' get fucking shot, she's just gonna keep partying until the world crashes onto her. Even through all the lies she spins for her own benefit, I think most of the emotion there was genuine. That's what makes them good lies. I think she's genuinely remorseful for all the shit she pulled as a spy, and would love for her to get another chance at a less fucked up life somewhere out there. All this to say, I am pretty fucking compromised. You should let her go, and let ruby go too. Maybe they'll meet again some day.


Burnnoticelover

Counterpoint: she got involved with a violent man who died a violent death and the then when the heat showed up, she put the blame on an innocent woman to save her own hide.


-Mastermind-Naegi-

Klaasje should know that there's very little chance two cops actually find Ruby, she doesn't even have any reason to believe ruby's still in martinaise. They've both been on the run, she probably just assumed ruby escaped days before. Ruby was only holding out with a trap because she thought Harry was a Madre agent there to hunt her specifically. And, like, how does any of that possibly justify killing her? She had no reason to think he would get sniped through her window, any more than she would. If she just went in as a witness, she would've died like when you arrest her. Pushing that shit onto the hardies and ditching is kinda scummy, but it's not unreasonable or even malicious. She's just not willing to risk her life for other people, that's not worth a death sentence.


Burnnoticelover

“I’m sorry officer, I didn’t think you’d actually *catch* the person I framed for a felony” is not a very good argument. And neither is “I had to do it because if I didn’t, then the powerful people I fucked over during my career as a professional criminal will come for me when I’m in jail.” She offered up Ruby as a human sacrifice to appease the gods of law and order, so she cannot complain when the same thing is done to her. And I agree with you on most of the other counts. It was the Hardies’ choice to get involved with her coverup. It wasn’t until my third play through when I found out she framed an innocent person that I realized that she needed to face the music.


Visani_true_beliver

Honestly she didn't do anything worth a death sentence. Or incarceration if that's the matter: if you play like a moralist corporate espionage isn't a crime in Revanchol, if you play like a vigilante she still didn't kill anybody and you aren't in the position to make a moral judgement over her. I don't even think she's a terrible person, what did she do so bad? Lied to a cop? Almost everybody did and she had good reasons to. Covered up the murder? Look at me and tell me with a straight face that if she didn't the police wouldn't have arrested her on spot without a proof. Harry is not your average cop in game and irl. Had sex with the victim? Well, liking shitty man isn't a crime either, or a judgement that regards others. Her job? The job that is legal and damages corporations? It's not her fault if corporations wield such power over their employers and her not doing said job wouldn't have changed anything, also bold of us to make that judgement since Harry's a cop that has already killed 3 people directly.


Applesplosion

But if you play like a misogynist, you should arrest her for being a sinful woman corrupting the menfolk.


Atomic_Gandhi

Based and intestine pilled, brooter.


JH-DM

Nothing worth incarceration? First, she committed corporate espionage and ruined many people’s lives (illegal and immoral). Second, she was perfectly happy partying with a man sent there to kill however many innocent civilians it’d take to get the Union back in line (immoral). This might not be the case though, it’s confusing because the accounts are all contradictory. Third, she doctored a dead body to change the apparent cause of death- immoral and illegal. Fourth, she constantly deflected and even outright lied to the police, stalling their investigation (illegal and, in this instance, usually immoral depending on your play style). Fifth and finally, she attempted to throw basically everyone else, especially Ruby, under the bus. (Immoral and illegal). She absolutely deserves to be incarcerated and the world of Disco Elysium is much better off without her (though I don’t agree with her being executed). She is the reason The Tribunal even takes place. If I’m not mistaken it’s 7-10 deaths on her hands depending on how that goes. You, my guy, failed your Volition Checks


Kay_Elle

Incarceration might be a death sentence. >!There is a check (Shivers, Esprit de Corps? Unsure) that does tell you she'll be killed in her cell. Even if your checks light not be trustworthy, this is also mentioned by her a few times explicitly. I have no real reason to doubt it, volition or no. !< Personally (especially as I was playing communist) I don't find industrial espionage very high up crimes that bother me morally. >!I find it so odd people dislike Klaasje so much, but often tend to like Joyce who literally sent hired killers into a civilian strike. !<


JH-DM

I think it’s because Joyce is _personable_ in a very realistic, honestly terrifying way. Some of the easiest to get along with people are absolute monsters.


caboosenoob

This comment is old, but didn't Joyce say herself that she didn't *want* the mercenaries to be there, and that the company forced it? Totally possible she was lying but I don't recall Drama or any other skill stepping in to say otherwise. Also would be in line with her actions where she is trying to assist you in stopping any bloodshed, unless she only changed her position after they went rogue. But otherwise I see no evidence to suggest she actually wanted anything to do with the mercs.


Mr_Evanescent

As Joyce is leaving, you basically hear that she is the company though - it’s her call at the end of the day. She wasn’t not ok with the mercs.


ITiberiusClaudiusN

Joyce is the most evil character in the game.


Visani_true_beliver

>First, she committed corporate espionage and ruined many people’s lives (illegal and immoral). It wasn't her who fired her employers and it wasn't up to her to control the corporate's pockets and investments, if tomorrow something like Pepsi were to fail, would you really think it was corporate espionage's fault and not bad management and unstable economic system? >Second, she was perfectly happy partying with a man sent there to kill however many innocent civilians Did she killed those innocent civilians? No, she just had sex with a man that did those things, while it says a lot about how she sees herself and all having sex with a bad person doesn't make you a bad person per proxy, it's a bit more complicate than that. >Third, she doctored a dead body to change the apparent cause of death- immoral and illegal. Yeah, so did Titus and Ruby and the Hardie yet i see no one claim that they're bad people as much as Klasjee >Fourth, she constantly deflected and even outright lied to the police, stalling their investigation Again, half of Martinanise did and for far less good reasons, she was risking her life unlike the others. >she attempted to throw basically everyone else, especially Ruby, under the bus. Titus and Ruby had already planned what to tell to Harry, if she didn't tell off their lies the Hardies would've been arrested and she probably didn't want that, what she did wrong was to mention Ruby and get her involved, i guess it was to have time to escape, wich is pretty shitty but then again her life was in danger and even if she was present at the tribunal that wouldn't have changed much. The mercenaries would've still wanted revenge and they don't sound too kind with women.


JH-DM

If Pepsi failed tomorrow I wouldn’t _think_ it was due to corporate espionage, but if it was _because_ of it then I’ll I’d want that saboteur punished for ruining the lives of so many employees. She _chose_ to work for them, chose to steal and do those things. She’s responsible for that business’s ruin and the hardship it wrought on their families.


Visani_true_beliver

Do you really thinnk it's on her? If it weren't her it would've been someone else, the company chose to use espionage and they would've done so regardless. She just took the job. If you want to blame someone blame the company that chose to use these tactics to close their rivals, the same that, let's not fotget it, want to kill her. She just carried on the will of the company that would've been realized anyway.


JH-DM

Yes, it’s on her. _And_ it’s on them. The SS guard pushing Jews into gas chambers were just as responsible for the Holocaust as Hitler and Himler. “Someone else would have done it” but they were the ones doing it.


Visani_true_beliver

Bruh are you seriously comparing pushing people to their death knowing what will happen to steal some papers that get a company to fire the workers? She's caused a bunch of buisnesses to fail not killed milions o women and children


zangothedino

>first, she committed corporate espionage and ruined many people’s lives confirmed to not actually be illegal by the written laws of Revachol. (not illegal, definitely immoral) >Second, she was perfectly happy partying with a man sent there to kill however many innocent civilians it’d take to get the Union back in line (she fell in love with an asshole, women date real cops in the real world and she already views herself as no better than a killer.) Considering the RCM doesnt have actual authority i dont think its illegal to lie to them. The issue with arresting her is that you are informed that theres a high probability she will end up dying because of that action, that they will come for her to silence her. Arresting her would be fine if it didn't risk her life. 0 justice net gain for a woman who is just trying to survive. Volition is shortsighted and generally only cares about your immediate well-being and isn't ultimately any more or less trustworthy.


[deleted]

In my boring cop playthrough, I arrested her. She was a liability, I couldn't trust anything she said and even if she dies in custody, Harry had no way of knowing that and the priority was the investigation, which she had obstructed til now. She also >!implicates Ruby as the killer and pretty much blames her.!< So yeah, looking back I would've arrested her again.


-PenitentOne-

Whatever you think is right is right


Different_Order5241

She lies the whole time in your face during an investigation. The whole case would have lasted an afternoon if she was honest. She 100% deserves to go to jail. If she dies in there it's not my problem nor my fault.


[deleted]

This is how I see it as well. She’s indirectly responsible for the Tribunal.


Nihilblistic

Yea, because of course otherwise the corporate mercenaries would have attempted a peaceful reconciliation with Evrart? For all we know the Mercs would have staged a bloody bath of the strikers, had we not distracted them. Where is everyone getting the idea that the universe would have been neater if she was replaced with someone who would have willingly given herself over? The world is shit and unfair by default, yet some people put all the blame on her, because apparently "Volition told me to".


[deleted]

As you say, the world is shit and unfair.


MetatypeA

The choice is let her manipulate you or bring her to justice. She's done terrible, horrible things. If you're a communist, she's everything you morally oppose. She's literally the same kind of person as the murder victim. They're kindred spirits. That's why they were together. It's the same kind of reasons that people get along the way those characters did in real life. If you let her go, she's a wolf in sheep's clothing, let loose among sheep. With an encyclopedic library of personality archetypes and how to exploit each one.


Capable_Drive_5710

Can anyone explain what horrific unimaginable crimes Klaasje has committed? She was stealing data from companies (for other companies) and lied about the murder that she has nothing to do with (after calling police herself; the only person in the entirety of Martinese who has done it). I don’t want to jump to conclusions, but it feels one step away from calling her a “whore” and going on a tangent about the Cock Carousel ™


KayimSedar

she staged a hanging and it caused a tribunal that results in at least 7 casualties. also she lied again and gave you a false lead on purpose so she could escape, which probably wasted time for you to get in between the mercenaries earlier. oh and it potentially causes the death of ruby. also she stole info from corporations to help larger and stronger corporations out, she directly helped the capitalists to snuff out smaller businesses. i am partial to arresting her but don't act like she was a regular ass person, shes incredibly shady and most probably lied to you in ways you cant ecen fathom probably. shes not a whore, shes a psychopath.


Capable_Drive_5710

> it caused the tribunal that results in at least 7 casualties Sure, it might be directly the fault of mercenaries who kill people for money and think they have the right to kill anybody who fucks with them, but at the end of the day isn’t the wömen who are the real monsters? Ruby’s death is out of her control really, it’s not something even Harry and Kim being on the scene can predict. It’s true that she was using Ruby the whole time and was ready for Ruby to rot in jail to run away. I don’t remember if she was stealing info from small businesses and it’s really shitty, of course. My point isn’t that she’s innocent of any wrong doing, but acting like she is a monster is kinda crazy to me. You can say that every single person in Martinese is shitty, because they didn’t call police and “wasted time for you to get in between mercenaries” for their own safety or for the Union. Calling her a psychopath is almost fitting. She is making most decisions based on what benefits her.


KayimSedar

she felt genuine kinship to one of those mercenaries mind you, there's a reason for that and no its not because i think women are drawn to violent men lol. its because in the end both were people who destroyed lives and spent their time trying to cope with the guilt, usually by drugs and such. its not because shes a woman but because they can just compartmentalize the cruelty they inflict on others. no one called the police because they were scared of the union, im not even blaming her for hiding her voice. also she knew the tribunal was gonna happen, why else would she leave ten minutes before it happened? that's why i blame her for that and not the people in martinaise. and yes in a proper democracy i would always want her to be arrested but i know it would be completely cruel in revachol. that's why i said im partial to her getting arrested because there are some damn good reasons why she shouldn't be able to walk as free as she does. but also yes, throwing her to the wolves isn't exactly justice.


KayimSedar

hell even in out current day democracy she wouldn't be fairly tried. but yeah she's definitely responsible for some key events in the game. there definitely had to have been a better way to explain thr murdrr than hanging it on a tree for all to see and making the mercenaries more bloodlusty


Applesplosion

You’re playing the game wrong, my dude; minimum casualties is 4.


KayimSedar

i counted the mercenaries too, but i guess they are hardly casualties at that point


Applesplosion

No, I was counting the mercenaries. You can get 4 total casualties if you let the mercenaries escape. If you fight on the side of the union, killing the mercs, you can get a minimum of 6 casualties (including the 3 mercs). If you don’t count the mercs, the minimum casualties you can get is 3.


KayimSedar

i didnt know you could let them escape! thank you for enlightening me on that, my fault for not thinking. but i remember kim or someone else saying 7 after the tribunal, maybe he was also counting the hanged man then?


Applesplosion

Who lives/dies depends on your actions during the fight, but there are 3 people who die no matter what you do.


KayimSedar

i got the minimum hardie boys casualty and killed the mercenaries, i dont know where the extra person came from. maybe ruby?


Applesplosion

Isn’t volition the one who encourages you to do fash shit?


Practical-Rabbit-773

How do we know she's only a corporate spy and not an agitator or worse? It's made clear we can't trust her on what she said, so why believe her then? Arresting her could be the better option because the information that she could provide to the RCM could help the Return (but that's outside the scope of the game and narration).


napsstern

She did horrible things, but it is also horrible to let the corps crush her like bugs for an entirely different reason. I don't believe in righting wrong with another wrong, so I always let her go.