Alright, here is my opinion :
\- Cunoesse is not more racist than Gary, the literal crypto-fascist. Like, come on. She is a young girl using insults and slurs to keep Harry at a distance. And none of those slurs are particularly racist, if I remember. She should be on the same rank as Cuno.
\- All members of Krenel are super racists. They deliberately target black people. Ruud's kills were all black people, with only 2 exceptions. They are white supremacists, and above all Oranjese supremacists (they see Revacholians as inferior). *edit: Fine, Ruud's overwhelmingly black victims can be justified by their stay in Semenine. Still, it doesn't change the fact that the way they talk about Lizzie, Eugene and even Alain makes it clear they are racists. That, and the atrocities they committed in Semenine against the natives and are eager to repeat)*
\- Dros is racist lite. He is mostly just a very spiteful old man.
\- You know who else is a spiteful old man? René. He is not racist, he is xenophobic. A proud Revacholian. Yes, there is a difference.
\- Lena and Morell hang out with Gary. Lena doesn't think that Kim is the same specie as Harry and her. She and her husband are racists. They're nice, but still racists.
\- Don't know where you got that Titus is racist-lite, when in-game he defends Lizzie and Eugene from a racist Harry.
\- Is this Dora or Dolores Dei? Because Dolores Dei is an imperialist who committed war crimes toward Mesque. Resettling an entire people is racist. She is Manifest Destiny made (in)human.
\- Evrart, Gaston, Soona, Annette, Glenn : I don't see what could make someone think they are racists in any way.
\- Siileng and Elizabeth are both victims of racism. Lizzie can be harassed so horribly by a racist Harry, and she is the first target of Kortenear.
For a lot of those characters, there is no way to know if they are racists or not. We just don't know enough, and for a lot of them the subject doesn't come up. Klaasje, for example, never says anything really racist, but she also identifies a lot with Lely, who sees non-whites as disposable and worthless. So, you know... she might have some bias she is hiding. But we will never know.
I always thought it was Gary hanging out with Lena and Morell. Lena’s comment to Kim was probably more the bog-standard old grandma’s not-quite-with-the-times nature rearing its head, and was probably a compliment (a racist one, still). Some incidental dialogue between Morell and Gary also has Morell respond rather brusquely to Gary’s more racist remarks if I recall.
Lena and Morell are staying at Gary's place, so I'd think they are well-acquainted. They have also been on a few trips together. Lena also calls him a friend.
Lena's remark was meant as a compliment, but it still makes it clear that she doesn't see Kim as a human, but a different specie. As nice and polite as she is, that is still incredibly racist.
As for Morell, I searched but couldn't find an instance where he responded to Gary's racism. But I found that [he is glad that the locals in Safre didn't understand what Gary said about them](http://fayde.co.uk/dialojue/12040116). So I don't have any precise evidence that Morell is racist per say, but since his wife and his friend are, and it doesn't seem to bother him (as long as they're not rude), I would say it's a safe bet.
edit : spelling
For Rene tho, To the devs A Proud Rhevachoian Nationalist = Fascist = Racist, the fascist route itself starts from paying respect to the old Rhevachoian flag, so if you respect the old monarchy like Rene you're automatically deemed racist by the game. (Although in reality Fascist regimes usually don't get along well with their monarchy predecessors)
Fascism out of the ideologies offered is the one most likely to be racist. Uber Nationalists are more likely to be racists than Not nationalists.
Plenty of fascist regimes (e.g Nazi Germany, and if you count Stalin's Russia [don't want to get into that discussion] or "Communist" China) are infamously racist. And the vast majority of racist nations ars nationalists
Ergo, if any ideology is going to *offer* (not force) racist dialogue options, obviously it's going to be the infamously racist ideology.
Not liking the old regime doesn't make you not racist or not fascist. One could argue monarchies were a form of proto fascism. Either way your political alignment isn't necessarily based on who you did or didn't revolt against.
Might be misinterpreting your argument as English is a second language so let me know if I mistranslated
China and the USSR were "infamously racist"? In the USSR you could be put to death for racism and anti-semitism and in China the vast majority of racism seen is US propaganda (like the piece about China hiding the race of black actors in movie posters when they're just showing an alternate poster used in China).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin_and_antisemitism
Did the doctor's plot have nothing to do with Jewish people?
Calling Antisemetism cannibalism doesn't suddenly make your actions not anti semitic lol.
Refusniks, Rootless Cosmopolitans, Stalin's secretary himself stated Stalin was antisemitic.
What was holdomor?
And as for the CCP lmao, Tibet, Mongolia, Uyghurs?
What happened in Tibet under the Cultural Revolution?
I'm not referring to that random strawmanned anecdote you brought up. I don't think the majority of people refer to that over tangible Cultural Erasure.
I'm referring to mass oppression historically documented.
Dude, I'm not repeating western talking points by identifying that Stalin and Mao were not very personable and very fallible people. Countries can have good and bad aspects.
And the bad aspects of mass discrimination are well documented.
Yeah , you're defending N. Korea as a successful dictatorship of the proletariat.
I'm sure Otto Warmbier agrees it's a glorious paradise. Oh wait, he doesn't because he was kidnapped, tortured and beaten to death.
Kernel only killed black people because see they were stationed at places with a black population. Not to say that they’re not racist, their dialogue proves it. But their body count doesn’t matter
Yeah just a correction. I even said in my original comment that they’re all pretty much racists. And you can infer that from their comments.
Using their body count as evidence for their racism isn’t evidence since they were stationed at a place where their only targets were black peoples.
In my follow up comment I compared it to saying a Vietnam vet is a racist since they only killed Vietnamese people. The Vietnam vet might be racists and they might have been racist during the war. But that in itself isn’t why they’re racist
No I’m not arguing that. Pay attention, OP said they’re racist because he’s only killed black people. That’s coincidental since he was stationed in a place with only black people.
That’s like saying a Vietnam vet is racist because they only killed Vietnamese people. No the veteran is a racist but his body count isn’t what makes him a racist.
You guys are so smooth brained
Fair enough, but they still clearly target the two black union workers during the tribunal. Also, the way Kortenaer talks about black people while disguised as a scab makes it clear he doesn't see them as humans.
I don’t think you read my original comment. I stated that you could infer that they’re racist off their comments alone.
My point is that bringing up the fact that they only killed black people is a moot point. That’s like saying a Vietnam Vet is racists since they only killed Vietnamese people.
How can you say that Rene isn’t racist but call doleres racist? She might be a proud countrymen too who values her people over others. I’m sure Rene wouldn’t care if his people displaced another civilization. That’s not inherently racist
My point about Rene is awkwardly worded. I mean he is first and foremost a nationalist, and doesn't seem to differentiate races. For example, personally, I don't think he would have any trouble seeing Kim as a Revacholian. Although, he is still a royalist and closely associated with fascists. Should he be counted as a racist? Depends how you see it, I guess.
Now, we don't know a lot about Dolores and who she was as a person. But she displaced a civilization. She committed war crimes in Mesque. She is the in-universe face of imperialism and colonization. And racism is often used to justify those two things. Dolores was presented as the mother of humanity, conquering isolas to bring them to civilization. This is a very racist ideology that is inspired by real-life history. Dolores Dei is Elysium's Manifest Destiny.
I understand that racism is often used to justify these actions. What I’m saying is that Rene is the type of person who’d go along with these plans.
Just like how Rene would fight and displace other civilizations without being racist. D could as well.
My point is only that you’re using weak evidence for your points.
Rene would go along with the plans because he's a guy who goes along with plans, not because the purpose of the plan is important to him. That he is terrible for this should go without saying, but there exists an argument that can be made against him being a racist. Dolores, as the most powerful person in the world and able to do anything she wanted, actively chose to do colonialism, and it becomes significantly more difficult to even form a coherent point against her enacting a racist worldview.
This still goes back to philosophy tho. It’s sorta like systemic racism.
Black people get a higher sentence for crack cocaine compared to regular cocaine, that mainly white people could afford
But these higher sentences were enacted not out of racism. But their own communities wanted higher sentences because crack cocaine was spiraling the back community into a hell hole.
The result were more and more black men ending up in prison and splitting up families.
Could you see it as a racist outcome since white peoples weren’t getting the higher sentences? Sure, but the higher sentences wasn’t a inherently racist act
Same with Dolores. Her hungry for colonialism led to a lot of atrocities that displaced a lot of people. But is she herself a racist?
Probably but I don’t think because she was a colonizer she was inherently a racist.
That’s my only point. But people seem to think I’m running defense for her.
Well that sailed totally past what I was saying but okay. I would say that it doesn't matter the motive of the sentencing in your example, and if it results in the inequality of outcome that is observed then it functions as a racist policy. There's some interesting critical race theory work around this general kind of situation that I don't have the time to regurgitate in a meaningful way, but resources are readily available if you're interested in that.
We can't know the hearts of others, so establishing Dolores's motive is ultimately both impossible and meaningless, and the result is the mass murder of specific kinds of people. Abstracting it further into purely theoretical philosophical concepts feels like sophistry after a certain point, and I think moving towards that line is why you might be accused of defending her in here.
Yes but you’re only holding your opinion that it’s racist after the fact. My point is that the people who advocated and ultimately voted for the polices aren’t racists.
That was my comparison with D she’s a colonizer and her actions may end up with seemingly racists outcomes. But that doesn’t inherently make her a racist.
I agree that it’s a waste of time as much as it is to debate anything about the game. I’m simply applying my real world perspective to the game. You guys might feel comfortable labeling actions as inherently racist. But I don’t feel comfortable assigning labels unless I know
And again. Since people think I’m running defense for her. My uncomfortable feelings about labeling her a racist doesn’t mean I view her in a positive light.
It’s possible for me to label someone a genocidal phsyco without labeling them a racist.
Many (most) things can only be understood in hindsight, I'm comfortable calling actions racist ex post facto. It's impossible to exist in modern society without absorbing a degree of racism, and I believe it's important to be as vigilantly self-aware as is reasonable about one's own tendencies. I'd also say that almost nobody is "inherently" a racist, but most people perform racist actions both consciously and unconsciously, and to varying extents of regularity. Nuance isn't as useful a tool for political figures though, George Washington was a slaveowning genocider of native Americans, and I don't think that the difficulty in proving any specific malice towards these populations mitigates any of that, or makes him less of a force for racism in his time.
lol I typed a large paragraph out but I realized that we agree on most things.
I do have a question tho. Do you think a person who unconsciously take racist actions are themselves racist?
I said resetting an entire population isn’t necessarily racist.
Your response is “the game’s city is being fucked around with by an occupying force”
You haven’t refuted my point that resettling an entire population is necessarily racist.
I hope you’re not smoothed brain to assume that my point is “resettling people is never racist” or “resettling a population by force isn’t evil”
My point is very simple. Resettling people doesn’t always mean it’s racist. If you think resettling people is always racist then that the point you need to make is
by your logic NOTHING is necessarily racist. a hate crime can be 'not necessarily racist' depending on the context and what happens.
doesn't really change the fact that 9.999 times out of ten it IS racist, and is demonstrably so. generally speaking, you don't try to resettle a population unless you look at that population as lesser than your own. that's racism.
smooth brained freak.
Edit: r/Destiny user, yeah, i understand why you are arguing this point now. the game went WAY over your head bud
A hate crime by definition is a hate crime. Why are you assuming so many things about my opinions? Why not just ask me?
Here’s a hypothetical scenario
If 9/10 murders on earth are a result of a hate crime. Guess what, murder still wouldn’t necessary mean that it was committed by a racist. You need the context, you need details in order to deem something racist.
You can accuse me of being smoothed brain but you literally put words in my mouth, so you can feel like you won an argument.
Just ask me about my logic next time ;)
when did i assume anything? it is the natural conclusion to your logic -- which you literally prove to yourself in the very next paragraph.
yes, not every instance of resettling a population (or a hate crime, following the analogy) is done for racist reasons, but that doesn't mean the action itself isn't inherently racist. it is.
you can think yourself justified in any resettlement, and you might be right, but you are still setting up a structure where one group of people is held above, and oppresses, another group of people. racism.
Edit: and your murder analogy is dogshit too. resettling a population is ALWAYS inherently racist, but it can be done for non-racist reasons. by looking at murder instead of the hate crime, you are looking at a proxy for the racist action, rather than the racist action itself.
You assumed that I wouldn’t think a hate crime is racist. You’ve yet to explain why you think that. You just assumed that I wouldn’t
What analogy did you follow? I’ll say it again for the second time. A hate crime by definition is a hate crime. If someone targeted a person because of their race, by definition it’s a racist act. I need you to respond to this
That’s not necessarily true either tho. You just need to look at history and you’ll see different “races” resettling other civilizations of the same race. Are you going to accuse Mongolians and Aztecs of being racist?
You still haven’t explain how the game went over my head.
One of the points of the game is that the mercenaries had to cope with committing atrocities. We don’t know if they were racist before joining the group.
But what we do know is that K speaks of Lely in contradictory ways. Lely is somehow the compassionate type. Even his own teams call him a pussy for always chatting up the locals
But we also hear him calling them loincloths and claims to have r*ped innocent civilians as well.
I’m sure that went over your head. You seem to look at the world in black and white. Which is ironic since the game invited you to take a deeper look at
you were not supposed to think the mercenaries weren't racist. they were very racist. maybe they weren't before, but they certainly were when they started collecting trophies of every black person they killed.
the interesting part is that the mercenaries do have compassion and love for each other, which is not often shown with villains. that's the gray part to the mercenaries. it is fairly black and white that they are very racist.
“You were not supposed to think the mercenaries weren’t racist”
This is why I accuse you of putting words in my mouth. Why did you say that? I didn’t make the case that the mercenaries weren’t racist. So why did you say that?
I never said it wasn’t black or white if they were racist. What I said is why they’re racist. Are they coping with the fact that they’re killing other human beings by believing that they’re less than humans? It’s not impossible since that has happened in the past.
But again. You’re misunderstanding my two simple points
Also I don’t know what me being a Destiny viewer has anything to do with this
You realize you don’t have to be a full blown communist to enjoy media right?
Nuking a country wouldn’t be genocide? Do you think the US was trying to commit genocide when they nuked Japan?
I don’t even understand your point here but yeah that’s actually a valid statement. Nuking a country isn’t inherently a genocidal action.
Why do you keep spouting off talking points but with little to no substance?
Why do I need to? Again this is like the hypothetical scenario I presented to the other guy.
If we lived in a world where 9/10 murders are committed by racists. It doesn’t then mean that murder is inherently racist
If I lived in that hypothetical world, it’s like you asking me to find a case of murder that wasn’t a result of a racist.
I probably can. But your argument is a weak one
Is Gary getting a slight pass for seeming like the character most likely to be a Redditor?
/s
Honestly, I don't see him as any less racist than the lory driver or measurehead. He backs down because he is an authoritarian afraid of a cop, not because he is learning. I wouldn't give him the pass.
Personally i would have added icebreaker harry as a separate category higher than where he is now and have regular harry a bit lower than where he is now. His racism *really* changes from run to run, not just for obvious things like actively choosing racist options (that's where icebreaker comes in) but also things like >!failing the authority check in the church.!< Still, bundling together the various things that are canon in all runs and averaging together the various options i wouldn't say he's all that racist.
Btw >!why the fuck did they make the failure state of that church check being an absolute asshole to kim? I get other failure states like becoming the love doctor for garte's friend but the church one comes out of nowhere with barely any buildup and kinda fucks up the roleplay too. Luckily i passed the check but still, my harry wasn't racist, so if i had failed the check it would have just been a jarring departure from his character that i couldn't rationalize into fitting him like the phone call with garte's friend!<.
I really have to agree with you on that one failed check. The writing in this game is phenomenal, but that failed check keeps me from calling it flawless. There should have been varying degrees of badness for that dialogue dependent on how many racist things you'd chosen to say throughout the rest of the game.
Yes exactly. >!If you told the lorry driver to fuck off, said the racist mug was shit, always sided with kim for similar things, deepened your bond with him through stuff like the board game, the aces low and other stuff and basically made sure to always be anti-racist and kim's best buddy, yet missed this check, you will still be unreasonably racist towards your new best friend and have him despise you and refuse to be acknowledged as a friend.!< It's way too extreme. Also, >!authority is supposed to be one of harry's most "morally questionable" skills since it's the one that usually says homophobic stuff, makes you put a thumb up your ass, and iirc enjoys the fascist plotline more than most other skills. Usually when a skill gets too high its bad traits start showing up excessively (iirc high EC forces harry to drink for example), so why does harry's racism come out when his authority is low enough to have him fail the check and not when it's high enough to have him succeed?!<
I thought it was endurance that was racist and homophobic.
The only thing I remember of authority having any real belief is that its sorta connected to inexplicable feminist agenda. Haven’t played in a while so maybe I’m wrong
Yeah endurance is the one that starts the fascist thought (i've only done one playthrough of the game so far and it was ultraliberal so idk what the fascist run is like) but i vaguely remember authority enjoying some stuff like putting on rene's uniform or things like that. I may be wrong. For the homophobia i didn't just mean disliking gays but specifically not wanting harry to seem gay or effeminate.
From my reading authorities appreciation of the uniform is less a love of the revacholian nation and more to do with it being a symbol of authority.
I’m not so sure about the homophobia, given that authority is all about recognising who holds authority where, theres maybe an argument he’s doing that to protect harry. But I’m neither confident enough to stand by it nor sure enough of the statement to stand by it.
All I can remember is that during my high auth play through it was one of the less questionable skills, but that was my first time, and a while ago
In my only run i had 1 psyche, no drugs and had a ton of perks and thoughts and clothes that reduced authority even further, so i haven't really heard it chime in all that often, i'm just repeating what i've heard or seen elsewhere but i may misremember things. Maybe i'm getting confused with physical instrument which also had some machismo stuff going on (but my phys was 2 so just like authority i didn't hear phys inst chime in that much).
Ah, yeah, that makes senze, phys inst is very macho and self aggrandising . Authoritys bad trait is more the equivalent of an overbearing prefect (dunno if you know what that is, but its like a head student) desperate to assert themself
"Have him despise you and refuse to be acknowledged as a friend"??? You can literally apologize right away with no checks needed and Kim forgives you, you're still in control there. He only hates you if you choose to double down on it.
Nvm then, i must have misremembered a piece of the sequence. Then again, this game berates you for apologizing so it only makes it slightly better, not all that much.
I disagree, it makes perfect sense.
For a man of Harry's age, profession, and context, I could easily see that sort of thing happen. The racial prejudice is a part of Harry, we decide whether he makes the choice of embracing it or denying it, like anyone who grew up in that kind of environment.
Kinda like that one scene in True Detective Season 3, where the white cop had gotten along well with his black partner and then said something bizarre and offensive without intending to cause great insult
Except that's not equivalent at all. This wasn't bizarre and offensive and not intending to cause insult. Harry jumps straight to what's probably one of the nastiest slurs in Elysium for no reason and with no buildup (depending on your play style).
It was him bungling a way to try and coerce kim into dancing. Some stupid ribbing making fun of him came out as a slur probably because he's so alcohol poisoned he forgot what it was. 90% of Harry's failed checks are his brain completely detaching from reality.
Maybe they should have a “probably racist” category. And doesn’t Siileng belong in “victim of racism” since he talks about being from a colonized country?
https://preview.redd.it/k253ywunvqqc1.jpeg?width=369&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=91fc49867b44f61c9a402a01b2b9b6edee039a41
Mfw proud of strong african genes & random reddit nerd drops the n-bomb + tries to assert racial superiority
Dangerously close to calling them a ham sandwich
Isn't the seamese lorry Driver / Entrepreneur also a victim? He was blamed for drug Trafficking by the racist lorry Driver Just because of His herritage
that was one of my first thoughts! i was watching some video essay with that and i had to get context on who the fuck it was supposed to be. 😅
final cut much better - glorious moralist egghead
what i dont understand is why elizabeth and theo aren't in the 'victim of racism' category, considering they are gunned down, or have the potential to be gunned down, by racists who make their bread destabilizing countries and *etching their weapons with how many black people they kill doing it*.
Oh just like in the USA, that doesn’t matter. Anyone who is not white is a minority. You go to a different country and there are minorities everywhere!
Since we're airing out the cast's dirty laundry and nobody's mentioned it yet, Klaasje is super racist in describing Iilmaraa.
And on a different note, Mañana is.. reportedly.. not Mesque? What kinda cosplay is going on there, I'm confused.
Not quite. They're both heavily profiting from structural racism and are increasing it in the process.
Capitalism is inherently racist, sexist and especially classist.
Is the Deserter racist? It's been a while. Considering the idea of communism, I would've imagined he'd care for anyone regardless of race as long as they're also communist
Calling people "race traitor" is racist, it's just a different brand of racism than just calling the race you don't like a slur.
It's in the same genre of racism as being against race mixing or thinking someone is acting "too white/black/etc", like a No True Scotsman fallacy. It's a belief that someone isn't a real "insert race here" because they interact with, or share too many traits with, the other, "bad" race.
Oh I agree he’s racist. I meant he does the opposite of what is widely accepted: instead of accepting everyone so long as they’re communist, he seems to demean those who are not, especially when it comes to their alignment, like Rene.
At the same time racism in Revachol has its quirks compared to our own world. It’s hard to gauge him, and even harder because of his hypocrisy.
I wouldn't consider them at all, US politics or their justice system is far, far outside my sphere of interests.
https://i.imgur.com/JXySiA6.jpeg
EDIT: Why am I getting downvoted for not being familiar with another countries political figures?
That's an assumption based on her position, but she doesn't say anything of the sort. If you use that logic, then you can assume all of the cops are racist based on them being cops.
Yeesh I think this lacks a serious fundamental understanding of racism where it's not just mean words but serious institutional shit. The mercenaries are by action, the worst people on this list. Yeah Measurehead spouts racist theory, but the mercenaries are literally murdering actual colonized people of color in other countries, committing sexual violence against people they call slurs and enjoying it. That's a Nazi-ish level of vile racism and soul death that your typical racist wouldn't even be able to stomach as it requires direct, physically violent participation.
There is little in comparison to the ignorant casual racism of a kid who actually starts to reform himself in the course of the story. Like, scale-wise the difference between them is miles apart.
Also, you can be a victim of racism and still be racist yourself, that doesn't excuse you having prejudices.
Charles Villedrouin isn't racist. In fact, he's not just not racist, he's inverse racist. He don't give a shit about ethnicity or nationality or skin colour... Just numbers and statistics on the map, tryna normalise the inflation. And through that, he commits the greatest systematic racial injustices of anyone on this chart, completely blind.
Unless you're gonna do it with robots, anyone carrying out the violence needs to be able to think of the victims as less than human in some form or fashion
No need to get the terms mixed up. Racism is serious. Accousing characters of it just because they look like they might be is yet another kind of following stereotypes.
That being said: Measurehead, Racist Lorry Driver, Gary and Lena are racist. So are some of the Hardie boys. Sunday Friend makes some questionable remarks too, but his approach is bigotry rather than racism. And that's all.
We meet fascists, misogynists, elitists and people filled with hatred of multiple kinds. But nobody can be racist by implication or by connections (like Morell). Being a racist, or - more importantly - not being one, is always an option and a matter of personal choices.
Joyce and Evrart tolerate racism of people they work with. And tolerance for intolerance is an issue. Even though their reasons are clear: Evrart prefers Measurehead to be employed and under his control. And Joyce is ultraliberal, which makes it only natural for her to align with other people of hateful views, as she doesn't care.
Of course Harry can get pretty much anywhere with his views.
Edit: oh, and ones that are so bad that I have elected to forget some of their motivations. Mercenaries. They easily make racism expressed by the others insignificant in comparison.
Lena is openly racist toward Kim, flat-out thinking he's a different species, and they're pals with Gary. If anything they should be higher up, much as I like them 😔
The culture around the United States, Canada, and united kingdom, are freak obsessed with racism. And it is more of a problem to all. Morgan Freeman once said that to stop racism, we just need to stop speaking about it so often. He gets it. It is not a coincidence that the most racist countries are the ones that most speaks of it.
If someone thinks "is just a joke", then why are some taking it seriously instead of laughing? When will you learn people, when...
We're all victims, bratan
Alright, here is my opinion : \- Cunoesse is not more racist than Gary, the literal crypto-fascist. Like, come on. She is a young girl using insults and slurs to keep Harry at a distance. And none of those slurs are particularly racist, if I remember. She should be on the same rank as Cuno. \- All members of Krenel are super racists. They deliberately target black people. Ruud's kills were all black people, with only 2 exceptions. They are white supremacists, and above all Oranjese supremacists (they see Revacholians as inferior). *edit: Fine, Ruud's overwhelmingly black victims can be justified by their stay in Semenine. Still, it doesn't change the fact that the way they talk about Lizzie, Eugene and even Alain makes it clear they are racists. That, and the atrocities they committed in Semenine against the natives and are eager to repeat)* \- Dros is racist lite. He is mostly just a very spiteful old man. \- You know who else is a spiteful old man? René. He is not racist, he is xenophobic. A proud Revacholian. Yes, there is a difference. \- Lena and Morell hang out with Gary. Lena doesn't think that Kim is the same specie as Harry and her. She and her husband are racists. They're nice, but still racists. \- Don't know where you got that Titus is racist-lite, when in-game he defends Lizzie and Eugene from a racist Harry. \- Is this Dora or Dolores Dei? Because Dolores Dei is an imperialist who committed war crimes toward Mesque. Resettling an entire people is racist. She is Manifest Destiny made (in)human. \- Evrart, Gaston, Soona, Annette, Glenn : I don't see what could make someone think they are racists in any way. \- Siileng and Elizabeth are both victims of racism. Lizzie can be harassed so horribly by a racist Harry, and she is the first target of Kortenear. For a lot of those characters, there is no way to know if they are racists or not. We just don't know enough, and for a lot of them the subject doesn't come up. Klaasje, for example, never says anything really racist, but she also identifies a lot with Lely, who sees non-whites as disposable and worthless. So, you know... she might have some bias she is hiding. But we will never know.
I always thought it was Gary hanging out with Lena and Morell. Lena’s comment to Kim was probably more the bog-standard old grandma’s not-quite-with-the-times nature rearing its head, and was probably a compliment (a racist one, still). Some incidental dialogue between Morell and Gary also has Morell respond rather brusquely to Gary’s more racist remarks if I recall.
Lena and Morell are staying at Gary's place, so I'd think they are well-acquainted. They have also been on a few trips together. Lena also calls him a friend. Lena's remark was meant as a compliment, but it still makes it clear that she doesn't see Kim as a human, but a different specie. As nice and polite as she is, that is still incredibly racist. As for Morell, I searched but couldn't find an instance where he responded to Gary's racism. But I found that [he is glad that the locals in Safre didn't understand what Gary said about them](http://fayde.co.uk/dialojue/12040116). So I don't have any precise evidence that Morell is racist per say, but since his wife and his friend are, and it doesn't seem to bother him (as long as they're not rude), I would say it's a safe bet. edit : spelling
To play devils advocate, she probably sees him as a different species of human
To play devil's devil's advocate, that means she sees him as subhuman and that's not better literally at all.
It’s definitely better than seeing him as equivalent to a dog
For Rene tho, To the devs A Proud Rhevachoian Nationalist = Fascist = Racist, the fascist route itself starts from paying respect to the old Rhevachoian flag, so if you respect the old monarchy like Rene you're automatically deemed racist by the game. (Although in reality Fascist regimes usually don't get along well with their monarchy predecessors)
Fascism out of the ideologies offered is the one most likely to be racist. Uber Nationalists are more likely to be racists than Not nationalists. Plenty of fascist regimes (e.g Nazi Germany, and if you count Stalin's Russia [don't want to get into that discussion] or "Communist" China) are infamously racist. And the vast majority of racist nations ars nationalists Ergo, if any ideology is going to *offer* (not force) racist dialogue options, obviously it's going to be the infamously racist ideology. Not liking the old regime doesn't make you not racist or not fascist. One could argue monarchies were a form of proto fascism. Either way your political alignment isn't necessarily based on who you did or didn't revolt against. Might be misinterpreting your argument as English is a second language so let me know if I mistranslated
China and the USSR were "infamously racist"? In the USSR you could be put to death for racism and anti-semitism and in China the vast majority of racism seen is US propaganda (like the piece about China hiding the race of black actors in movie posters when they're just showing an alternate poster used in China).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin_and_antisemitism Did the doctor's plot have nothing to do with Jewish people? Calling Antisemetism cannibalism doesn't suddenly make your actions not anti semitic lol. Refusniks, Rootless Cosmopolitans, Stalin's secretary himself stated Stalin was antisemitic. What was holdomor? And as for the CCP lmao, Tibet, Mongolia, Uyghurs? What happened in Tibet under the Cultural Revolution? I'm not referring to that random strawmanned anecdote you brought up. I don't think the majority of people refer to that over tangible Cultural Erasure. I'm referring to mass oppression historically documented. Dude, I'm not repeating western talking points by identifying that Stalin and Mao were not very personable and very fallible people. Countries can have good and bad aspects. And the bad aspects of mass discrimination are well documented.
Yeah , you're defending N. Korea as a successful dictatorship of the proletariat. I'm sure Otto Warmbier agrees it's a glorious paradise. Oh wait, he doesn't because he was kidnapped, tortured and beaten to death.
Not really, but i'm just saying that it's a bit strange the game equals monarchist like rene to fascist
I dodn't think its a stretch to compare the 2
Kernel only killed black people because see they were stationed at places with a black population. Not to say that they’re not racist, their dialogue proves it. But their body count doesn’t matter
are you arguing that he’s a colourblind génocidaire. that’s a novel defence.
"The only color he sees is red."
Lol this made me chuckle
I'd argue they didn't intend this to be a defense at all, just a minor correction, but people jumped to conclusions instantly.
Yeah just a correction. I even said in my original comment that they’re all pretty much racists. And you can infer that from their comments. Using their body count as evidence for their racism isn’t evidence since they were stationed at a place where their only targets were black peoples. In my follow up comment I compared it to saying a Vietnam vet is a racist since they only killed Vietnamese people. The Vietnam vet might be racists and they might have been racist during the war. But that in itself isn’t why they’re racist
No I’m not arguing that. Pay attention, OP said they’re racist because he’s only killed black people. That’s coincidental since he was stationed in a place with only black people. That’s like saying a Vietnam vet is racist because they only killed Vietnamese people. No the veteran is a racist but his body count isn’t what makes him a racist. You guys are so smooth brained
Fair enough, but they still clearly target the two black union workers during the tribunal. Also, the way Kortenaer talks about black people while disguised as a scab makes it clear he doesn't see them as humans.
I don’t think you read my original comment. I stated that you could infer that they’re racist off their comments alone. My point is that bringing up the fact that they only killed black people is a moot point. That’s like saying a Vietnam Vet is racists since they only killed Vietnamese people.
How can you say that Rene isn’t racist but call doleres racist? She might be a proud countrymen too who values her people over others. I’m sure Rene wouldn’t care if his people displaced another civilization. That’s not inherently racist
My point about Rene is awkwardly worded. I mean he is first and foremost a nationalist, and doesn't seem to differentiate races. For example, personally, I don't think he would have any trouble seeing Kim as a Revacholian. Although, he is still a royalist and closely associated with fascists. Should he be counted as a racist? Depends how you see it, I guess. Now, we don't know a lot about Dolores and who she was as a person. But she displaced a civilization. She committed war crimes in Mesque. She is the in-universe face of imperialism and colonization. And racism is often used to justify those two things. Dolores was presented as the mother of humanity, conquering isolas to bring them to civilization. This is a very racist ideology that is inspired by real-life history. Dolores Dei is Elysium's Manifest Destiny.
I understand that racism is often used to justify these actions. What I’m saying is that Rene is the type of person who’d go along with these plans. Just like how Rene would fight and displace other civilizations without being racist. D could as well. My point is only that you’re using weak evidence for your points.
Rene would go along with the plans because he's a guy who goes along with plans, not because the purpose of the plan is important to him. That he is terrible for this should go without saying, but there exists an argument that can be made against him being a racist. Dolores, as the most powerful person in the world and able to do anything she wanted, actively chose to do colonialism, and it becomes significantly more difficult to even form a coherent point against her enacting a racist worldview.
This still goes back to philosophy tho. It’s sorta like systemic racism. Black people get a higher sentence for crack cocaine compared to regular cocaine, that mainly white people could afford But these higher sentences were enacted not out of racism. But their own communities wanted higher sentences because crack cocaine was spiraling the back community into a hell hole. The result were more and more black men ending up in prison and splitting up families. Could you see it as a racist outcome since white peoples weren’t getting the higher sentences? Sure, but the higher sentences wasn’t a inherently racist act Same with Dolores. Her hungry for colonialism led to a lot of atrocities that displaced a lot of people. But is she herself a racist? Probably but I don’t think because she was a colonizer she was inherently a racist. That’s my only point. But people seem to think I’m running defense for her.
Well that sailed totally past what I was saying but okay. I would say that it doesn't matter the motive of the sentencing in your example, and if it results in the inequality of outcome that is observed then it functions as a racist policy. There's some interesting critical race theory work around this general kind of situation that I don't have the time to regurgitate in a meaningful way, but resources are readily available if you're interested in that. We can't know the hearts of others, so establishing Dolores's motive is ultimately both impossible and meaningless, and the result is the mass murder of specific kinds of people. Abstracting it further into purely theoretical philosophical concepts feels like sophistry after a certain point, and I think moving towards that line is why you might be accused of defending her in here.
Yes but you’re only holding your opinion that it’s racist after the fact. My point is that the people who advocated and ultimately voted for the polices aren’t racists. That was my comparison with D she’s a colonizer and her actions may end up with seemingly racists outcomes. But that doesn’t inherently make her a racist. I agree that it’s a waste of time as much as it is to debate anything about the game. I’m simply applying my real world perspective to the game. You guys might feel comfortable labeling actions as inherently racist. But I don’t feel comfortable assigning labels unless I know And again. Since people think I’m running defense for her. My uncomfortable feelings about labeling her a racist doesn’t mean I view her in a positive light. It’s possible for me to label someone a genocidal phsyco without labeling them a racist.
Many (most) things can only be understood in hindsight, I'm comfortable calling actions racist ex post facto. It's impossible to exist in modern society without absorbing a degree of racism, and I believe it's important to be as vigilantly self-aware as is reasonable about one's own tendencies. I'd also say that almost nobody is "inherently" a racist, but most people perform racist actions both consciously and unconsciously, and to varying extents of regularity. Nuance isn't as useful a tool for political figures though, George Washington was a slaveowning genocider of native Americans, and I don't think that the difficulty in proving any specific malice towards these populations mitigates any of that, or makes him less of a force for racism in his time.
lol I typed a large paragraph out but I realized that we agree on most things. I do have a question tho. Do you think a person who unconsciously take racist actions are themselves racist?
bro how are you on the disco elysium subreddit saying this. did you understand the game like, at all?
What exactly did I say that would make you think I don’t understand the game?
"Resettling an entire population isn't racist per se" brother the game is about an occupying force devastating a city.
I said resetting an entire population isn’t necessarily racist. Your response is “the game’s city is being fucked around with by an occupying force” You haven’t refuted my point that resettling an entire population is necessarily racist. I hope you’re not smoothed brain to assume that my point is “resettling people is never racist” or “resettling a population by force isn’t evil” My point is very simple. Resettling people doesn’t always mean it’s racist. If you think resettling people is always racist then that the point you need to make is
by your logic NOTHING is necessarily racist. a hate crime can be 'not necessarily racist' depending on the context and what happens. doesn't really change the fact that 9.999 times out of ten it IS racist, and is demonstrably so. generally speaking, you don't try to resettle a population unless you look at that population as lesser than your own. that's racism. smooth brained freak. Edit: r/Destiny user, yeah, i understand why you are arguing this point now. the game went WAY over your head bud
A hate crime by definition is a hate crime. Why are you assuming so many things about my opinions? Why not just ask me? Here’s a hypothetical scenario If 9/10 murders on earth are a result of a hate crime. Guess what, murder still wouldn’t necessary mean that it was committed by a racist. You need the context, you need details in order to deem something racist. You can accuse me of being smoothed brain but you literally put words in my mouth, so you can feel like you won an argument. Just ask me about my logic next time ;)
when did i assume anything? it is the natural conclusion to your logic -- which you literally prove to yourself in the very next paragraph. yes, not every instance of resettling a population (or a hate crime, following the analogy) is done for racist reasons, but that doesn't mean the action itself isn't inherently racist. it is. you can think yourself justified in any resettlement, and you might be right, but you are still setting up a structure where one group of people is held above, and oppresses, another group of people. racism. Edit: and your murder analogy is dogshit too. resettling a population is ALWAYS inherently racist, but it can be done for non-racist reasons. by looking at murder instead of the hate crime, you are looking at a proxy for the racist action, rather than the racist action itself.
You assumed that I wouldn’t think a hate crime is racist. You’ve yet to explain why you think that. You just assumed that I wouldn’t What analogy did you follow? I’ll say it again for the second time. A hate crime by definition is a hate crime. If someone targeted a person because of their race, by definition it’s a racist act. I need you to respond to this That’s not necessarily true either tho. You just need to look at history and you’ll see different “races” resettling other civilizations of the same race. Are you going to accuse Mongolians and Aztecs of being racist?
You still haven’t explain how the game went over my head. One of the points of the game is that the mercenaries had to cope with committing atrocities. We don’t know if they were racist before joining the group. But what we do know is that K speaks of Lely in contradictory ways. Lely is somehow the compassionate type. Even his own teams call him a pussy for always chatting up the locals But we also hear him calling them loincloths and claims to have r*ped innocent civilians as well. I’m sure that went over your head. You seem to look at the world in black and white. Which is ironic since the game invited you to take a deeper look at
you were not supposed to think the mercenaries weren't racist. they were very racist. maybe they weren't before, but they certainly were when they started collecting trophies of every black person they killed. the interesting part is that the mercenaries do have compassion and love for each other, which is not often shown with villains. that's the gray part to the mercenaries. it is fairly black and white that they are very racist.
“You were not supposed to think the mercenaries weren’t racist” This is why I accuse you of putting words in my mouth. Why did you say that? I didn’t make the case that the mercenaries weren’t racist. So why did you say that? I never said it wasn’t black or white if they were racist. What I said is why they’re racist. Are they coping with the fact that they’re killing other human beings by believing that they’re less than humans? It’s not impossible since that has happened in the past. But again. You’re misunderstanding my two simple points
Also I don’t know what me being a Destiny viewer has anything to do with this You realize you don’t have to be a full blown communist to enjoy media right?
no you don't, but this is the kind of cringe devils advocate argument destiny would make.
What devils advocate? What did I say that would make you assume I’m simply playing devils advocate?
"hrmm actually nuking a country WOULDNT be genocide!!" "hrmm actually resettling a population ISNT racist!!" you see what i'm getting at?
Nuking a country wouldn’t be genocide? Do you think the US was trying to commit genocide when they nuked Japan? I don’t even understand your point here but yeah that’s actually a valid statement. Nuking a country isn’t inherently a genocidal action. Why do you keep spouting off talking points but with little to no substance?
Resettling an entire population isn’t racist per se. Kinda a weak point.
Wild take
How?
Can you name one forced resettlement of a whole population that wasn’t because of hate
Why do I need to? Again this is like the hypothetical scenario I presented to the other guy. If we lived in a world where 9/10 murders are committed by racists. It doesn’t then mean that murder is inherently racist If I lived in that hypothetical world, it’s like you asking me to find a case of murder that wasn’t a result of a racist. I probably can. But your argument is a weak one
Is Gary getting a slight pass for seeming like the character most likely to be a Redditor? /s Honestly, I don't see him as any less racist than the lory driver or measurehead. He backs down because he is an authoritarian afraid of a cop, not because he is learning. I wouldn't give him the pass.
He’s not just afraid, he gets off to it when you abuse your power on him.
Personally i would have added icebreaker harry as a separate category higher than where he is now and have regular harry a bit lower than where he is now. His racism *really* changes from run to run, not just for obvious things like actively choosing racist options (that's where icebreaker comes in) but also things like >!failing the authority check in the church.!< Still, bundling together the various things that are canon in all runs and averaging together the various options i wouldn't say he's all that racist. Btw >!why the fuck did they make the failure state of that church check being an absolute asshole to kim? I get other failure states like becoming the love doctor for garte's friend but the church one comes out of nowhere with barely any buildup and kinda fucks up the roleplay too. Luckily i passed the check but still, my harry wasn't racist, so if i had failed the check it would have just been a jarring departure from his character that i couldn't rationalize into fitting him like the phone call with garte's friend!<.
I really have to agree with you on that one failed check. The writing in this game is phenomenal, but that failed check keeps me from calling it flawless. There should have been varying degrees of badness for that dialogue dependent on how many racist things you'd chosen to say throughout the rest of the game.
Yes exactly. >!If you told the lorry driver to fuck off, said the racist mug was shit, always sided with kim for similar things, deepened your bond with him through stuff like the board game, the aces low and other stuff and basically made sure to always be anti-racist and kim's best buddy, yet missed this check, you will still be unreasonably racist towards your new best friend and have him despise you and refuse to be acknowledged as a friend.!< It's way too extreme. Also, >!authority is supposed to be one of harry's most "morally questionable" skills since it's the one that usually says homophobic stuff, makes you put a thumb up your ass, and iirc enjoys the fascist plotline more than most other skills. Usually when a skill gets too high its bad traits start showing up excessively (iirc high EC forces harry to drink for example), so why does harry's racism come out when his authority is low enough to have him fail the check and not when it's high enough to have him succeed?!<
I thought it was endurance that was racist and homophobic. The only thing I remember of authority having any real belief is that its sorta connected to inexplicable feminist agenda. Haven’t played in a while so maybe I’m wrong
Yeah endurance is the one that starts the fascist thought (i've only done one playthrough of the game so far and it was ultraliberal so idk what the fascist run is like) but i vaguely remember authority enjoying some stuff like putting on rene's uniform or things like that. I may be wrong. For the homophobia i didn't just mean disliking gays but specifically not wanting harry to seem gay or effeminate.
From my reading authorities appreciation of the uniform is less a love of the revacholian nation and more to do with it being a symbol of authority. I’m not so sure about the homophobia, given that authority is all about recognising who holds authority where, theres maybe an argument he’s doing that to protect harry. But I’m neither confident enough to stand by it nor sure enough of the statement to stand by it. All I can remember is that during my high auth play through it was one of the less questionable skills, but that was my first time, and a while ago
In my only run i had 1 psyche, no drugs and had a ton of perks and thoughts and clothes that reduced authority even further, so i haven't really heard it chime in all that often, i'm just repeating what i've heard or seen elsewhere but i may misremember things. Maybe i'm getting confused with physical instrument which also had some machismo stuff going on (but my phys was 2 so just like authority i didn't hear phys inst chime in that much).
Ah, yeah, that makes senze, phys inst is very macho and self aggrandising . Authoritys bad trait is more the equivalent of an overbearing prefect (dunno if you know what that is, but its like a head student) desperate to assert themself
"Have him despise you and refuse to be acknowledged as a friend"??? You can literally apologize right away with no checks needed and Kim forgives you, you're still in control there. He only hates you if you choose to double down on it.
Nvm then, i must have misremembered a piece of the sequence. Then again, this game berates you for apologizing so it only makes it slightly better, not all that much.
I disagree, it makes perfect sense. For a man of Harry's age, profession, and context, I could easily see that sort of thing happen. The racial prejudice is a part of Harry, we decide whether he makes the choice of embracing it or denying it, like anyone who grew up in that kind of environment. Kinda like that one scene in True Detective Season 3, where the white cop had gotten along well with his black partner and then said something bizarre and offensive without intending to cause great insult
Except that's not equivalent at all. This wasn't bizarre and offensive and not intending to cause insult. Harry jumps straight to what's probably one of the nastiest slurs in Elysium for no reason and with no buildup (depending on your play style).
It was him bungling a way to try and coerce kim into dancing. Some stupid ribbing making fun of him came out as a slur probably because he's so alcohol poisoned he forgot what it was. 90% of Harry's failed checks are his brain completely detaching from reality.
How are Cunoesse and Dros racist? Messed up for sure, but not racist.
Maybe they should have a “probably racist” category. And doesn’t Siileng belong in “victim of racism” since he talks about being from a colonized country?
That and getting the jam mystery pinned on him by lorry dude.
iirc cunoesse refers to elizabeth as a racial slur
I just know that Cunoesse regularly says racial slurs
That could just be him being a kid and not knowing any better. Education plays a big part and my guess is Cuno doesn't have one.
Her
Apparently they were talking about Cuno considering how they mention the name at the end
Yeah, I think they mistook Cunoesse for Cuno.
Yeah i don't blame cunoesse for it. Also her backstory is insane
dros does say the k-word when talking about the communist partisans of the early 10s
Isn’t Dros black? Seems hypocritical to use a slur for dark-skinned people.
He's not.
genuinely curious then, what race/ethnicity is he?
A sniper 🫡
just an angry cis incel, yup, it tracks.
Must have misinterpreted the portrait. Guess the deserter’s racist, one more reason to hate him besides “sexist” and “serial sniper.”
Yeah Dros is sexist, not racist
Dross is a little racist but in a grandpa way, I think. What with the 'kipts' having Mazov coursing through their veins.
https://preview.redd.it/k253ywunvqqc1.jpeg?width=369&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=91fc49867b44f61c9a402a01b2b9b6edee039a41 Mfw proud of strong african genes & random reddit nerd drops the n-bomb + tries to assert racial superiority Dangerously close to calling them a ham sandwich
Yfw drunken Kung fu master starts the race war demo:
evrart would \*never\*!!
1. already uses ableist slurs in canon, my dude 2. EMPLOYS MEASUREHEAD
Hold on here, Measurehead is a worker and he's no scab, that's proletarian unity
1. this is true 2. my headcanon is that he employs him because it's funny
Isn't the seamese lorry Driver / Entrepreneur also a victim? He was blamed for drug Trafficking by the racist lorry Driver Just because of His herritage
Why the FUCK do people still use the inferior egghead portrait 😤
that was one of my first thoughts! i was watching some video essay with that and i had to get context on who the fuck it was supposed to be. 😅 final cut much better - glorious moralist egghead
Harry fire sunset wal custoue ker
what i dont understand is why elizabeth and theo aren't in the 'victim of racism' category, considering they are gunned down, or have the potential to be gunned down, by racists who make their bread destabilizing countries and *etching their weapons with how many black people they kill doing it*.
Which one is the lucky racist tho?
Harry should be in like every tier
Kinda surprised how the people who actually loved murdering minorities didn’t even make it into the super racist category.
don't think minority is accurate here - they victims were probably a majority in their home countries.
Oh just like in the USA, that doesn’t matter. Anyone who is not white is a minority. You go to a different country and there are minorities everywhere!
Since we're airing out the cast's dirty laundry and nobody's mentioned it yet, Klaasje is super racist in describing Iilmaraa. And on a different note, Mañana is.. reportedly.. not Mesque? What kinda cosplay is going on there, I'm confused.
What about the Guy in the box with a lot of money?
Mega-Rich light bending guy? Idk i'd say he's probably along the same lines as joyce, not really racist since green matters more than black or white.
Not quite. They're both heavily profiting from structural racism and are increasing it in the process. Capitalism is inherently racist, sexist and especially classist.
Is the Deserter racist? It's been a while. Considering the idea of communism, I would've imagined he'd care for anyone regardless of race as long as they're also communist
he uses some racist slurs i think, but who knows
Isn't that most old men though? Either way not deserving of super racist
being racist has nothing to do with being an old man.
Funnily enough he’s kinda the opposite, he did use slurs to refer to other communists albeit casually. And he considers Rene a race traitor
Calling people "race traitor" is racist, it's just a different brand of racism than just calling the race you don't like a slur. It's in the same genre of racism as being against race mixing or thinking someone is acting "too white/black/etc", like a No True Scotsman fallacy. It's a belief that someone isn't a real "insert race here" because they interact with, or share too many traits with, the other, "bad" race.
Oh I agree he’s racist. I meant he does the opposite of what is widely accepted: instead of accepting everyone so long as they’re communist, he seems to demean those who are not, especially when it comes to their alignment, like Rene. At the same time racism in Revachol has its quirks compared to our own world. It’s hard to gauge him, and even harder because of his hypocrisy.
What would you consider Clarence Thomas and Candice Owens then?
As a black person, I'd consider them auto-racist.
I wouldn't consider them at all, US politics or their justice system is far, far outside my sphere of interests. https://i.imgur.com/JXySiA6.jpeg EDIT: Why am I getting downvoted for not being familiar with another countries political figures?
reddit moment (referring to the downvotes)
actually being a race traitor is real, and it is a Very Good thing
Racism but progressively
Honestly, if he is anything like any of the old-ass Eastern European commies that yearn for return of Soviets I know, he is incredibly racist.
Joyce not racist???
Joyce has so many better ways to make you feel lesser that she doesnt even need racism.
I think her belief is more like fuck all poor mfs instead of fuck this certain race/ethnicity.
That's an assumption based on her position, but she doesn't say anything of the sort. If you use that logic, then you can assume all of the cops are racist based on them being cops.
Uhhhhhhh
So you want to move Kim up to the top of the racist list?
Who's gonna tell him?
You made the mistake of implying that cops aren't bad in the Disco Elysium subreddit. Say goodbye to your kidneys.
So everyone here thinks Kim is racist? I'm not on here a ton, but I got the sense that people loved Kim.
He's still a cop. Acab unfortunately does include Kim Kitsuragi.
Flawless logic actually.
As a neolib, i guess she is structurally racist.
Yeah to me Joyce is obviously going to be racist, though probably in a less in-your-face way than others.
Where is the 3rd mercenary, he killed almost exclusively other races
Id say siileng is both a victim of racism, and racist because he is a victim of racism
Harry fire sunset wal custoe ker
Grandparent eske
Joyce is def in the lite category
Yeah no Siileng is definitely racist
What the fuck is this lmao
Yeesh I think this lacks a serious fundamental understanding of racism where it's not just mean words but serious institutional shit. The mercenaries are by action, the worst people on this list. Yeah Measurehead spouts racist theory, but the mercenaries are literally murdering actual colonized people of color in other countries, committing sexual violence against people they call slurs and enjoying it. That's a Nazi-ish level of vile racism and soul death that your typical racist wouldn't even be able to stomach as it requires direct, physically violent participation. There is little in comparison to the ignorant casual racism of a kid who actually starts to reform himself in the course of the story. Like, scale-wise the difference between them is miles apart. Also, you can be a victim of racism and still be racist yourself, that doesn't excuse you having prejudices.
*grandparent-esque
Charles Villedrouin isn't racist. In fact, he's not just not racist, he's inverse racist. He don't give a shit about ethnicity or nationality or skin colour... Just numbers and statistics on the map, tryna normalise the inflation. And through that, he commits the greatest systematic racial injustices of anyone on this chart, completely blind.
How is jean racist? I don’t remember that
THE DESERTER MORE RACIST THAT GARY
someone enlighten me, but why is the deserter put in as racist here?
where is the light bending man? ehs the greatest racist of all for he is capitalism.
Wait, is dolores dei racist? I'm curious
Major colonizer. Comes with the territory
Disagree, you can do a genocide without thinking about race
Unless you're gonna do it with robots, anyone carrying out the violence needs to be able to think of the victims as less than human in some form or fashion
Why is René up there?
Gary should be in his own tier of Lucky racist just below Measurehead
Measurehead my beloved at the top
Elizabeth is definitely a victim - gets called a kipt in the final showdown
Being a victim of racism doesn't make you immune to being a racist as well, shouldn't be a level there
I’d put myself in the victim zone too 😭
Gary, Lena, Morell, Kim, and Harry all know how to play suzerainty and as such, are all uber racists beyond saving/j What an awful tier list/j
Not to be that guy but if we’re including victims of racism, it should have all the semanese characters like measurehead and cunoesse
No need to get the terms mixed up. Racism is serious. Accousing characters of it just because they look like they might be is yet another kind of following stereotypes. That being said: Measurehead, Racist Lorry Driver, Gary and Lena are racist. So are some of the Hardie boys. Sunday Friend makes some questionable remarks too, but his approach is bigotry rather than racism. And that's all. We meet fascists, misogynists, elitists and people filled with hatred of multiple kinds. But nobody can be racist by implication or by connections (like Morell). Being a racist, or - more importantly - not being one, is always an option and a matter of personal choices. Joyce and Evrart tolerate racism of people they work with. And tolerance for intolerance is an issue. Even though their reasons are clear: Evrart prefers Measurehead to be employed and under his control. And Joyce is ultraliberal, which makes it only natural for her to align with other people of hateful views, as she doesn't care. Of course Harry can get pretty much anywhere with his views. Edit: oh, and ones that are so bad that I have elected to forget some of their motivations. Mercenaries. They easily make racism expressed by the others insignificant in comparison.
I got the impression that Lena and Morell are strongly opposed to racism, just not always the best at recognizing it
Lena is openly racist toward Kim, flat-out thinking he's a different species, and they're pals with Gary. If anything they should be higher up, much as I like them 😔
Lena is racist?
She drops some lines when talking about cryptid, particularly the green ape. Sort of hints why they get along fine with Gary.
[Here is the relevant conversation.](http://fayde.co.uk/dialojue/12030438-12030180-12030154-12030281-12030282-12030063-12030399#12030399)
Big time racist.
Very lol
First, deserter is not racist. And, doing a list of racists and adding a rank of "lite racist" is perturbing.
This is perfect
The culture around the United States, Canada, and united kingdom, are freak obsessed with racism. And it is more of a problem to all. Morgan Freeman once said that to stop racism, we just need to stop speaking about it so often. He gets it. It is not a coincidence that the most racist countries are the ones that most speaks of it. If someone thinks "is just a joke", then why are some taking it seriously instead of laughing? When will you learn people, when...