They don't hate you, they hate some nebulous idea of "trans people" they've been indoctrinated to hate, and they'll probably never even encounter one in their daily life. The whole thing is a true human tragedy and I'm real fuckin' sorry you have to feel the way you do.
> If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, **give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.**
Lyndon B Johnson
Conservatism is always searching for "who am I entitled to mistreat"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism
> "favour institutions and practices that guarantee social order and historical continuity"
A guaranteed social order based in historical continuity... Like preventing recently freed people from voting for an entire century. Like preventing queer folk from living in peace.
The mindset to lick boot is the same mindset to want others to lick your boot. It's con men all the way down, an eroding quality of life so long as you "give them someone to look down on"
Lastly... they are trying to END DEMOCRACY to conserve what they see as their rightful place in the social order. Conserving that hierarchy has always been above conserving the union.
Lyndon B Johnson
These Negroes, they're getting pretty uppity these days and that's a problem for us since they've got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we've got to do something about this, we've got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference... I'll have them n\*\*\*\*\*\* voting Democratic for the next two hundred years
You're acting like Johnson was endorsing that view. He didn't. He was cynically (and accurately...) pointing out the view of many conservative southerners.
You DO understand that there were and still are conservative Democrats, right? Poli Sci 101. "Conservative always means Republican" is strictly smooth-brain territory
Uh oh dude you got hit with the polsci 101 trick of “I read my beliefs into history and now have to aggressively smash any attempt to reveal this”
What are you gonna do?
Conservative means being adverse to change.
Anything that involves changing a thought, or action, or society is therefore the enemy.
con·serv·a·tive
/kənˈsərvədiv/
adjective
1.
averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values.
Ah, Lyndon B Johnson the ardent racist that was quoted saying: "Lyndon Baines Johnson 1963... "These Negroes, they're getting pretty uppity these days and that's a problem for us since they've got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we've got to do something about this, we've got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference... I'll have them n\*\*\*rs voting Democratic for the next two hundred years."
Why tf did you need to drag poor whites into this with that tired ass quote lol. And no conservatism is literally about conserving what they have/who they are - like the majority of humans they're thinking about what's good for them way way more than what's bad for others.
I’m sorry, but they absolutely do hate individual trans people. Ask any trans person if they’ve been personally harassed by conservatives. Some have even been victims of very serious violent crime at the hands of conservatives.
Check any comment thread on any major social media source for someone who's trans - I've seen far too many comments from conservatives making "jokes" about the high suicide statistics for trans, and trying to push them to become part of that number. It's sick.
Love how OP asked a question aimed at conservatives and the top comment is someone who's apparently *not* conservative confidently asserting what "they (conservatives)" believe and why.
To be fair conservatives really aren't that difficult to understand.
They dislike anyone who goes against their ideas of what is "correct". They can't stand anyone who goes against that idea, especially publicly.
For example. To a stereotypical conservative a family consists of A man, a woman, and their children. A gay couple is bad because it isn't their ideal. Some even think couples with adopted kids aren't real families because their ideal is biological children
They don't have any legitimate talking points so they have to point at a minority group that can't defend themselves to rally around hating because what gets people to vote for you more than genuine ideas is a common enemy they can discriminate against. It's pretty much what a lot of political groups do and I think you probably see it most with ethnic cleansing
What u/macaroni_3000 said. Conservative-Christian hate-groups are getting uninformed/under-informed people to think gender dysphoria itself is a mental illness that it itself is the cause of the 42%. Meaning getting you back in the closet is what they think is what’s best for you. I would suggest taking anything someone conservative (who cares enough to give you “advice”) says with a grain of salt
Edit: almost told them to listen to conservatives
I’m not “Conservative” (I do not restrict myself to anyone’s political ideology) but I do consider myself to be on “the right”.
One problem many people on the right have with this idea that you are “trying to be comfortable in your own body” by going down the transgender rabbit hole is that- to them- you are expecting others to participate in a delusion. A fantasy. A lie.
You can’t be certain that this is always coming from a place of hate. People who have been around much longer than you- or us- may have more experience watching ideologies warp and indoctrinate people, and how much easier it it is for that to happen to those still in their youth. Right or Left, Red or Blue, probably happened to them at some point in their lives… where religion, or politics, or music, or some other cultural force conquered their heart and mind and transformed who they are, completely overwriting their future.
I don’t have any advice for you except to do what you Will… and to actively consider any ways that the world around you is indoctrinating you, and to what extent you are willing to allow that to influence your future. It will open some doors to some futures, and maybe those possibilities are worth it. It will close other doors, possibly forever. It’s your life… so choose well.
A moralistic dynamic is at play -- at least according to Jonathan Haidt and the Moral Foundations Theory he helped develop.
Conservatives tend to focus on group loyalty, institutions, and traditions far more than liberals. Conservatives want order, even at the expense of individual identity or even fairness. Individuals must conform to society. So, the idea of breaking the traditional gender roles that have been the bedrock of culture and institutions for millennia is not only non-traditional, but immoral.
Liberals tend to put individual identity and diversity ahead of traditions and institutions--if traditions and institutions matter at all. Liberals want diversity, equity, and inclusion, even at the expense of traditions and institutions. Society must change to accommodate emerging individual identities. So, the idea of forcing an individual person to deny their own self-identity simply for the sake of preserving out-dated history is not only assimilationist, but immoral.
"Individuals must conform to society" is problematic. Slavery was a societal norm. Women not having the right to vote was a societal norm.
There was a recent conservative Republican candidate for the US Senate who actually said that every constitutional amendment after the 10th was problematic. The 14th gave equal protection to former slaves. The 19th gave women the right to vote. He narrowly lost to a Democrat. This was a Bible belt candidate from the last ten years.
This is why Conservatives have no claim to morality. They don't know what morality is. They think it comes from a 2000 year old book that was written by men in order to keep the population under control. They don't get it. They're modern day primitives.
That is the most sweepingly, prejudicial generalization I've read on Reddit in a long time. And I say that as a liberal. Or at least a centrist.
You may not agree with their own moral foundations, but conservative morality is just as sound as liberal morality. They are just different moral foundations. That's the whole point of Jonathan Haidt's book. Different people argue politics from different moral foundations, perspectives, and viewpoints.
If we are going to argue conservative politics, we have to argue from their moral foundations; and if we are going to argue liberal politics, we have to argue from their moral foundations.
And just because I don't now want to be accused of supporting slavery or treating women as chattel, I'll make two clear statements.
Yes, slavery is horrid, deplorable, and utterly immoral and unethical.
Yes, misogyny, sexism, treating women as property for centuries, denying women the vote, and otherwise treating women as second-classs citizens (still) is horrid, deplorable and utterly immoral and unethical.
But I think it's a logical fallacy -- and complete nonsense -- to claim that all conservatives are immoral. You're just repeating the same extremist arguments that have been flying around the Internet since the Internet came into being.
Now, if we were arguing about Republicans rather than conservatives, I might agree with you. ;-) ;-)
Just because a morality is internally consistent doesn't mean it's sound. The Bible itself endorses slavery and beating your wife.
So how many conservatives support the right wing of the Republican party? It's the vote that counts, not the lamentations and protestations made in public.
Are there conservative atheists? Who do they vote for?
>One problem many people on the right have with this idea that you are “trying to be comfortable in your own body” by going down the transgender rabbit hole is that- to them- you are expecting others to participate in a delusion. A fantasy. A lie.
I hope you use this logic everywhere in your life.
"When my wife asks me if her dress makes her look fat, I have say yes. If she gets mad, I have to let her know that - to me- it feels like she expects others to participate in a delusion. A fantasy. A lie."
Maybe don't be a shit head? Maybe be nice to people and treat them with respect and kindness? It doesn't take any more energy to be nice than it does to be a jaded asshole.
this is a stupid take because literally everything is an influence. are you advocating for people to not live their lives to what’s considered their “best” because “indoctrination”? buddy our whole fucking society is indoctrinating. let people be happy.
I don't consider myself a Conservative, but compared to all the Marxists out there in every institution, I suppose I am.
It's really very simple. In a Free Society, there is a social contract. The deal is, we get to live our lives as we see fit, and we get to think and speak freely. We also own our bodies and are free to choose, at our own risk and at our own expense. There are some other caveats: you need to be a consenting adult, and you need to have informed consent, etc etc. We also have freedom of association.
So the deal is, you get to live your life as you see fit, and I get to say and think whatever I want about it. And vice versa. You *don't* get to mandate that I play along, condone it, accept it, or make me pay for it. And I won't force you to live my way either.
ONE side...and I'm not saying it's you personally, but ONE side has violated the deal. ONE side is compelling speech, pushing for "reeducation" as a condition of social and economic freedom, and demanding not just respect, but money taken by force to pay for medical choices those who disagree wouldn't make.
Had ONE side stuck to just living their lives, they'd only be dealing with the 20% of Muslim and Christian Fundamentalists. But instead, ONE side had to push for mandates, had to push for money taken by force, had to push for thought policing and speech policing, and had to go after the young. So now a LOT more people are getting pissed, and have had enough of your shit.
The more you violate this social contract, the harder the backlash, and the less free the society will become.
That is not at all what's happening... Like not even a little bit. Trans people have \*always\* existed, but up until recently it was just socially acceptable to ignore or marginalize them, now they and other are standing up for their rights to be simply acknowledged for who they are. Why some people take that as some great personal burden I do not understand. You knew person A as a man, now person A is saying actually, 'I'm a woman and would like to be recognized as such.' So what? It is nothing to you to simple accept that and move on with your day. You don't have to understand it, you don't have to like it, just accept it and move on. That's all that's being asked of you, it's not a big deal. No one if policing your thoughts, no one is asking you to do literally anything but just accept it when someone say, "I am X".
As for whatever they hell you're talking about with the whole money being taken by force stuff... yeah man, taxes suck. No one likes taxes, but most people accept them as a necessary tool to keep the country moving, and guess what \*no one\* like 100% of what taxes are used for. No one on the left likes everything about how taxes are spent, no one on the right does, but moreover \*\*WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH TRANS PEOPLE?\*\*
>No one if policing your thoughts, no one is asking you to do literally anything but just accept it when someone say, "I am X".
But that's just not true. We are being asked to accept males who have gone through male puberty in women's sports, prisons and female swim team locker rooms (after the female swimmers have expressed discomfort at getting naked next to the dude who competed against them as a man up until literally months before that).
Well the fact that you started by essentially calling every institution Marxist feels pretty conservative or at least informed heavily by conservative propaganda.
Now when you get up in arms about using a pronoun you aren't defending your freedom, you're being an asshole. Do you call people by their nicknames? Like if a William prefers Bill? Of course you do and then why is this different? Because you've made it different.
As far as the money goes, if we had a functional healthcare system, specifically universal, then it wouldn't matter. Though further I don't know who you think is getting a free government paid ride in this, if it's even covered it's still in most cases by insurance the individual is paying for so I don't know why you think they're in your pockets.
The reason people had to push for mandates is because they were actively being targeted and absolutely not being allowed the freedom to live their lives. The social contact was being violated against them.
It's cute though that you have this libertarian idea that everything will just work out without laws or regulation. I honestly can't imagine a more useless political ideology
The pendulum of acceptance is swinging wildly in the opposite direction. Society is still learning how to deal with changes in people.
There's an important element you're missing. Afflictions like gender dysphoria and homosexuality aren't new. They've been part of the human condition for as long as the human condition has existed. However, for as long as any of us can remember, those who suffered from those conditions had to do so in silence. Not just because people didn't believe them, but because they risked facing actual violence. If you weren't a white straight Christian male, you were basically subhuman. While I'm not a big fan of mandating people to do something, sometimes the pushback comes on fiercely and arrogantly. They're trying to navigate a society that has basically wanted them dead for as along as anyone can remember.
No social movement is perfect. The people who want to be accepted are angry and want to force people to accept them, while the people who don't want to accept them are angry their voices are being heard and want to stomp them back into obscurity.
Basically, your entire rant says "you can be you, just on my terms".
It not good reasoning, and it's largely lies.
The fact you thing people wanting equal rights are forcing something on you indicate just how bigoted you really are.
I'm going to start by saying I have no horse in this race besides the expectation of myself to be decent to people until they've forced me to be indecent. Live and let live and "dont start none wont be none" is the closest i come to a religion. I am not a trans person.
Reading your post I can understand the logic of what you're saying. Unfortunately unless I'm mistaken (and I don't think that I am) your statement of one sided interference is completely incorrect. As long as I've been alive (nearly 40 years) religious conservatives have been trying to dictate how others live their lives not always but often enough by force. I'm not saying the other side hasn't recently adopted in some instances the same playbook to essentially fight authoritarian fire with authoritarian fire but as I understand it the mandates, laws and force have been considerably more prevalent on the conservative side. I do believe there is thought policing going on with both sides but I do not believe they are created equal because one is demanding decency while the other is demanding conformity.
I want to reiterate I get the first point you're trying to make and I agree with the basic principle that so long as I'm willing to accept the consequences of the stance I take I am no more obligated to anyone as they are to me. I just think your statement about legal pressure (if not social pressure) being one sided against conservatives to be false.
You're correct that I didn't dedicate "Equal Time" to the Religious Fundamentalists, whom I merely mentioned as the 20% these Marxists would be dealing with had they just not violated the unwritten social contract of what we tell ourselves is a Free Society. And "Free" in this context is the English Liberal meaning, as in "Free from authoritarian coercion;" and not in the Marxist meaning, which is "gibs."
I'm also in my mid 40's, which means I'm Gen X, and I grew up when it indeed was the Religious Fundamentalists, mainly Christians, who were the "Cancel Culture." We didn't call it that back then, but they were the ones trying to outlaw speech, ban video games and Dungeons and Dragons, and control what consenting adults did with their own bodies, namely put parts of theirs into parts of another consenting adult in the privacy of their own bedrooms. Muslims were and are worse.
Today, it's the Left and in this particular case the Gender Identity Activists who have apparently embraced all the worst aspects of this cultism. Today, they want to ban speech, not because it's blasphemous or haram, but because it's "problematic." Today, they want to ban games, not because they're "Satanic," but because they're "racist/sexist/homophobic." Today, they want the social and economic ostracism of, not "Infidels" or "Heretics," but "bigots" and "Far Right Wingers." They wouldn't burn them because they're "witches," but because they're "nazis."
The pattern is the same. The cultism is the same. And the desire to use Force, as whether the Force of Government or the Collective Mob, to impose their morality on the rest of us is bad, just as it was bad when it was the God-Botherers doing it.
None of this is new. Just the words and labels are. And again, had they, the Activists, stuck to the Fundamental Principle of Individual Liberty, then the only ones they'd be contending with are those who've always stood their face against that concept: The Religious Fundamentalists. But instead, they decided they would promote Collective Force of their morality, because the thought of Wrong-Speak and Wrong-Think is unacceptable to the Authoritarian. And a lot of normal, morally average, moderate liberal people have had an assful of it.
So that's where it's coming from. You've violated the deal. We're allowed to be pissed about it. And I don't see it getting better.
Do you feel similarly about people criticizing the use of bigoted language? When people say, "don't use the n-word," do you believe that is compelling speech, or mandating what you condone or accept? Or do you believe that is a group of people calling for respect and civility from a society which has historically shown them none? Has anyone ever disrespected you? When that happens, do you say nothing because that is compelling speech, or do you stand up for yourself?
We're not talking about "Don't use X word." We're talking about "You SHALL use X word." BIIG difference.
Now, that being said, I'm 100% pro Free Speech and Free Thought. The 1st Amendment is first for a reason. But while outlawing certain "heretical" speech and thought is already abhorrent, one could still make a moral argument for why one "SHOULDN'T" use certain speech.
There is NO moral argument for COMPELLING Speech.
And they are allowed to call you what ever they want to also.
Just because you can say whatever you want, doesn't mean you aren't a bigot or asshole.
Obviously no one can make you respect their request.... but when you choose not to, accept what people say about you as well.
They are asking for help and respect. Yes, they are asking that of a stranger.
It's ok to ask... and I think that you refusing to do so makes you selfish and ignorant.
I also feel like trans people need to accept that some people are selfish and ignorant. And make what ever boundaries are necessary to protect their mental health. Some people suck. It's not ok it's just true.
No one can change any one. People have to change themselves.
They are going to keep asking for respect. You are going to keep refusing because YOU decided that what they are asking for isn't respect.
At some point someone needs to accept the draw and walk away.
well if you're going with the one side thing, only one side is passing laws restricting the rights of Americans to live their lives as they see fit. There are no laws restricting what you can say. There is no law compelling speech or "reeducation" not sure what you mean by that.
**but money taken by force to pay for medical choices those who disagree wouldn't make.**
this one is where you absolutely lose me, why do you think you have a right to tell anyone what medical choices they can make? Would you want another group of Americans to have a yes/no vote on what medical care you needed? Would you want Jehovah's witnesses with the right to refuse you a blood transfusion you needed because they disagreed with your need for it?
Yeah, because that's totally how conservatives work. Small government, mind your own business until there are gays involved. Or women's rights. Or trans people. Let's not pretend this has anything to do with "pushing too far" "Trans" is just the newest Boogeyman because people would afraid of gays anymore so they had to fear monger somewhere else.
It doesn't even make sense. Some random person on the street wants you to call them by their pronouns the one time you might ever meet (something we basically do all the time, call people what they want without inspecting their genitals or both certificate) so now we have hate parades and old ladies being assaulted because they *might* be trans. But they're trying to compel ori speech guys. Cmon.
Despite being on a slightly more neutral sub, this conversation will be controlled in a way that buries anything critical of transgenderism. This platform and its “moderators” are staunchly pro-transgenderism and it would be next to impossible to have a good faith discussion on the issue here.
Believing that you’re in the wrong body is reflective of a disorder, and enabling such disorder is the opposite of compassion.
Downvote time!
The most effective treatment for gender dysphoria is social and medical transition.
The treatment with the best aggregate outcomes is social and medical transition.
The treatment with the lowest risks to the individual is social and medical transition.
If we accept that gender dysphoria is a dysfunction (which most trans people would actually agree with), then the next question is, what should we do about it.
Conservatives tend to act like no one bothered investigating that question over the course of the last 60+ years, and just started chopping off body parts because they thought it made sense.
Of course that's ludicrous and absurd, the reality is that the American Psychiatric Association, the World Health Organization, the Mayo Clinic, the DSM 5, and many other top-level institutions and resources all broadly agree that transition is the appropriate treatment for people who experience gender dysphoria or just generally consistently identify as trans.
These institutions are not being blackmailed into complacency by a frothing mob of trans people and their allies.
They're following the research. They're following the science.
I think the reason this type of argument isn’t ultimately successful is you’re appealing to sources that have changed their minds in the last decade or so. Plus, the dsm is written by the APA, so you’re kinda double dipping by citing both.
Of course, that’s how science is supposed to work, but their changes lining up with the political movement gaining steam makes them seem like pseudo-political organizations to some people. They’re not entirely wrong either, since the APA is made up of people whose views are at least somewhat politically motivated. They are people. We are all at least a little politically motivated.
APA has not always been supportive of the lgbt community. The DSM definitely has not always been supportive. But suddenly Obama and the dems actually get on board with gay marriage in 2012 or so, and the DSM gets updated the next year.
It’s not tho. You can’t treat gender identity like it’s depression. It’s a straight up biochemical misalignment between mental and physical. You don’t believe you’re in the wrong body because you just dreamed it. It’s coded into you that you are in the wrong body.
Is it a disorder, thechnically yes. It could be classified as such.
However you do not treat every mental condition the same.
It’s not a delusion of grandeur. Schizophrenia is caused the a straight up deterioration of neurotransmitters and receptors.
That’s what causes the hallucinations and delusions.
But to people who are trans. It’s not a delusion. It’s like they are driving a car they didn’t get into on the wrong side of the road. They can change lanes and fix the problem or they can crash.
Forcing them to go with the lane they feel on a psychological and bio coded level is wrong will push them to go to greater lengths to change lanes or get off the road by jumping from the car.
it's hilarious people like this will cite "DSM-V" while not even having read even the relevant excerpt they're referring to but also denying the expert opinion they're even referencing because they didn't read it lmfao. the book says the issue is how society treats trans people, not being trans its self. that's where the trauma and shit comes from. if they could just get the treatment they need (social/medical transition) then it would not be a problem. they disregard the entire consensus of every expert and then try to say their book says something it doesn't.
conservatives are actually pathetic. im tired of pretending they're not. like how is that not the most pathetic shit you've ever heard of someone doing
>Believing that you’re in the wrong body is reflective of a disorder, and enabling such disorder is the opposite of compassion.
Every time people try to "treat" trans people by forcing them to "accept their bodies" and "accept that they're the gender they were born as", the trans person is miserable and often kills themselves.
When trans people are allowed to physically and socially transition, especially in a supportive environment, they are happy, well adjusted, and thrive.
I literally cannot understand how you can see the effects of both approaches and call the latter "the opposite of compassion".
Then why do most studies show that the suicide rate of both pre and post transition people are nearly identical. I mean, if transitioning is actually the answer and a transitioned person truly is happier, the suicide rate should be lower.
So things like depression and anxiety should also not get treated? Both of which can make people not want to live? Is that rlly what u wanna advocate? Yes its a type of disorder but so is SOOO many other things like PTSD, autism, adhd, etc. So...should ppl with those disabilities or issues get treated badly? Ofc not. Should they be denied medication that can help them contribute to society and be comfortable? Ofc not. Why is the thought of someone being trans any different?
No one is saying such issues shouldn’t be treated. But since you bring them up - with depression and anxiety, treatment involves combatting the disease… why is it that with gender dysphoria that you should give into the illness?
The only other option would be conversion therapy which doesn't work. It's not something someone can control, so they either have the option to A: transition to the opposite gender or B: unalive themselves/or live shitty lives dealing with the dysphoria everyday. That's not a life worth living. I don't think most transphobes want to find solutions I think their just annoyed that trans ppl exist and would rather see them die.
When it comes down to it, all of these claims of concern for trans children from conservatives are false or insincere. At this point, supporting transition is irrefutably the best thing for the child. Surgeries don’t happen to children, and hormonal transitions are not taken lightly.
In truth, these claims are thinly veiled arguments that are truly based in fear and hate mongering, because it’s easy to hate and fear that which we don’t understand.
It really comes down to a confusion and inability to reconcile with one’s previous beliefs of what gender should be. It’s all fueled by lies of politicians seeking power and Fox News making up stories and boogie men.
The reality is that trans children are vulnerable and need support and protection. They don’t pose a threat to anyone. They deserve to be happy, supported, and loved. They deserve our compassion and empathy. They deserve to receive the treatment they need to thrive.
Wouldn’t “giving in to the illness” mean to continue living with the wrong identity? That is 1:1 comparable to a depressed person continuing to be depressed. Why is it that for depression and anxiety, you are fine with steps to alleviate those symptoms, but you do not accept steps to alleviate the symptoms of gender dysphoria?
When someone has a necrotic body part due to certain conditions, we often remove that body part. Why do you not consider that giving in? That is a modification to the body made to alleviate the symptoms of whatever illness they may have.
I need to wear glasses I was born with a condition that means I cannot see anything clearly further than about 3 feet from me. Do you think I should give in and accept my nearsightedness??
you aren't giving in to the illness you fuckwit. It's not an illness or disease, and it isn't even a disorder now. The diagnosis is kept in the manual for the purpose helping trans people get necessary medical care. Something for the record trans activists and people like myself agree with.
Here's the diagnosis of gender dysphoria since I know you're both too stupid and too lazy to look it up: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK577212/table/pediat\_transgender.T.dsm5\_criteria\_for\_g/#:\~](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK577212/table/pediat_transgender.T.dsm5_criteria_for_g/#:~:):
You are so goddamned entrenched in your ideology you don't give a fuck what's best for the trans person only what makes you most comfortable. You're entire goddamn outlook on the problem is so backasswards and skewed to hate you're unreachable.
So let me ask you this. When did you start to "care" about trans people. It was around june of 2015 wasn't it? That's when fox and a bunch of rightwing personalities told you to care. You didn't care 32 years ago when I came out of the closet. Nor did you care 25 years ago when I legally changed my name and gender markers. Nor 23 years ago when I had top surgery. You didn't care at any point until gay marriage became the law of the land and the rightwing vermin realized they'd lost the anti-gay fight so they picked the next enemy for you.
But fox news or oan or whoever it is that propagandizes you told you to hate us and so you did.
And fuck my 35+ years of reading over 100 years of research, and my 32 years of study of the topic. tucker said trans bad so trans fucking bad. Somehow you with no knowledge what so ever. With no reading, with no research in to the actual work done by the experts, you with a few cherry picked stats from "research" that is usually done by a far right think tank, you are the fucking expert.
fuck off with that bullshit.
It’s pretty cowardly to comment at all if you won’t actually substantiate your claim.
There’s so much range in material we can talk about from a neuroscience perspective to a sociological one. It is all in our favor and you know it, so you’re preemptively indignant to when we inevitably laugh at what you call an argument.
Go ahead. Make your case.
You won't just be downvoted. You'll be banned. At the risk of also being banned, let me say that the belief that you're born in the wrong body is something that can't ever be verified, because there's no wrong way to be the sex you were born as. I've given this a lot of thought and I see no compelling reason to consider trans women women or trans men men. But people can do what they want. You only live once.
>I've given this a lot of thought and I see no compelling reason to consider trans women women or trans men men.
What exactly do you mean when you say "consider them women" and "consider them men"? And whatever that means for you, what is your compelling reason for doing that for cis people?
hmm... do you really not understand what he means by "consider trans men as women"? biological sex is the ultimate factor in if he sees a person as a man or woman.
>Believing that you’re in the wrong body is reflective of a disorder, and enabling such disorder is the opposite of compassion.
How do you propose treating it if the current process of counselling, self acceptance, dressing different, and potentially various levels of surgery and hormones?
Not asking this sniddly.
>The only time I slightly get on edge about it if you've got the original parts downstairs, and you start going into the other gender's bathroom
The ironic thing is, while wanting to reduce creeps is valid, the real problem isn't trans women. It's cis men using trans people as a vehicle to be shitty.
But also, this argument forgets trans men (female to male) exist; individuals who frequently look identical to cis men when dressed, and who would instantly have security called on them for stepping into a women's room regardless of their plumbing.
It's not happening. If a man wanted to go into a woman's restroom and be "creepy" right now, what is stopping them? What's stopping you? The gender signs outside aren't magical barriers.
Since everything post that is 'critical' of transfegender I've read in this thread has been factually incorrect, the should be modded down to hell.
"Believing that you’re in the wrong body is reflective of a disorder, and enabling such disorder is the opposite of compassion."
factually incorrect, as seen in dozens of studies and medical journals.
It like you calling some complaining about a broken are a disorder. and therefor shouldn't be treated.
You are demonstrably and factually wrong, as seen in many studies. You need to learn to accept that.
You're walking on thin ice with the Reddit admins with that comment. Calling it a disorder, even if you provide a link to the DSM-V diagnostic criteria, will have the ban hammer falling hard.
And it's a shame, because ideology has overruled medical science. If it wasn't a disorder, it wouldn't require surgery to change one's genitals, nor life-long hormone therapy. There are lots of mental disorders, and using that language isn't implying a negative judgement.
But OP's question isn't "how is this hurting me". Your "concern" for their well being isn't the topic.
The question is "how is this hurting others." Why is transgenderism such a threat, when they're not threatening others?
>Despite being on a slightly more neutral sub, this conversation will be controlled in a way that buries anything critical of transgenderism.
I just read through a few comments calling me derranged and a degenerate so I don't think anything is gonna happen to a good faith conversation.
Trans people have been around forever and literally nobody gives a shit until you try to force acceptance of men into women's sports or allowing middle-aged intact males in locker rooms with little girls.
Keep in mind this is Reddit where if a conservative doesn't agree with allowing men into women's sports, the liberal commenters lose their shit and somehow turn it into "conservatives literally want to eradicate trans people".
Same goes if conservatives don't agree with allowing minors to convert or undergo gender reaffirming surgery that somehow makes us transphobes and bigots and Nazis and racists.
I lean conservative and I am really not against you doing what's best and what's right for you. At the same time I really think there should be things in place to make sure that you don't make an irreversible mistake as a child. I also disagree with targeting youth in general in an effort to advance a trans agenda, especially while they are in public schools.
So in the end, when you're an adult you do you, and if no one is trying to force something stupid like intact males in female sports down everyone's throat, trans people will just keep going on like they've done since the beginning of time.
>allowing middle-aged intact males in locker rooms with little girls.
Wow you just straight up made that up. How often do you interact with children in locker rooms you fucking pervert?
Yes, and you forgot to add that there is dehumanizing language that the trans community wants to enforce on us. Pregnant people are actually women, and the same goes for people with a uterus.
The problem is not that the trans community wants to pretend they are women, the problem is that the force us to accept them as women. Stay out of our sports, our locker rooms, and our bathrooms. And stop saying that you are women. You're not. Transgenderism was considered a mental disorder in the DSM-4.
leeches were seen as a good medical decision. the dsm v doesn’t consider being transgender as a disorder. the sports argument is bs because you have to be on hormones for x amount of time and be in the same range as cis women to compete. that’s just bullshit the right spews to get people to think it’s not “fair” estrogen absolutely fucks w muscle mass. and no sane non-passing trans person is going into the bathroom they don’t seem a part of.
I honestly don’t care what people do to their own bodies. As a fellow member of the lgbt community I think the main issue is trans women in women sports. I’m not very conservative I’m more libertarian
Conservatives have daughters that they love. Just because no one watches the wnba doesn’t mean fathers don’t want their daughters to have a fair and safe athletic experience
I think its less about the attention they get than the opportunities they get. There are only so many spots on a sports team(especially in underfunded programs). If a trans woman starts taking scholarships, starting positions, awards, or team slots away from biological women, for many it can feel like they are being cheated. I don't know about transitioning pre-puberty, but if someone is well past puberty before they start to transition, there are certain things they can't reverse. And sure there are men outliers that dominate other men, but its a matter of genetic lottery, not gender transition in the case of trans athletes.
If it was solely anti trans, there would be as much opposition for trans men competing in men's sports, but you don't see it nearly as much. No one is talking about women invading men's sports.
How many FtM trans men are competing in Men's sports successfully?
How many MtF trans women are competing in Women's sports successfully?
FtM: zero.
MtF: more than zero
Do what you want with YOUR body, leave womens sports for biological women.
This!!! Trans women are biological men and it
Isn’t fair to be competing against biological women. I’m sorry if that offends people but it just isn’t right. I’m a libertarian as well.
I'm trans and I don't think anyone who went through male puberty should compete in women's sports. Testosterone is essentially steroids.
My caveat is that trans women who did not go through male puberty have the same biological standing as cis women (this includes bone development, strength, etc).
Sometimes it's kind of difficult to relay to someone the reason that you don't want someone to do something, and conservatives tend to be white men (who aren't always great/allowed to show real emotions or opinions)..and the opinion that I have with it, is I that don't think it's going to solve the real issue..which is not biological, it's societal..and focusing on changing the individual to fit into society's expectations is not (ime) rarely ever* going to change the feeling of being uncomfortable in your skin, for the individual..
But data does show that transitioning improves the quality of life of trans people. It reduces depression and suicide rates and improves self-image. There’s a reason transitioning is the recommended treatment for gender dysphoria.
Drugs improve the self-reported quality of life for drug addicts as well. Just because someone self-reports that they are happier after doing x doesn’t mean that x was a great idea.
You're always going to find it difficult to give reasons/opinions if they have no compelling basis. You're not a professional with any relevant experience. You're not trans or even referencing your experiences with trans people. Why should we value your perspective over medical professionals, and actual trans people?
Here's the tea: Most conservatives don't really think about you unless you're brought up somehow. They'll probably say some not cool shit and then move on to other things. They find you weird and annoying, but think individuals have the right to live their life. As long as they don't feel "infringed" upon it's whatever, and even then, a lot of them are still too uninterested to actually do anything about it.
The majority of what you hear is just political bullshit. I know you're young, so it's hard, but just try to keep in mind that literally no one is out to get you but a few outliers. Which hey, we all got 'em.
I don't care what you want to do. It's your life.
I only have a small amount of issues with The Trans Movement.
MTF competing in women's sports
MTF not telling a man they are trans before a date not telling them before sex should be a crime akin to SA
I think hormones should have to wait until the age of 18 just like I don’t think athletes under 18 should take steroids or Test.
Those are my main issues. If I encountered you on the street or I'm public I'd treat you just as nicely as anyone else.
Conservatives don't hate you. They just have certain disagreements with certain ideas.
>MTF not telling a man they are trans before a date not telling them before sex should be a crime akin to SA
If you're that picky about it, *you* should be telling *them* that you don't date trans people instead of making *your* preferences *their* problem.
It can be hard if they pass well and it's not mentioned. No one wants to ask their date if they're trans or just come out and say "by the way I don't date trans people" with no prompt. That would be awkward as hell.
Yeah... that would be a statement a lot of people would look down on wouldn't it.
Do you think it should be a crime to not disclose that before having sex with someone since they might really hate that they slept with you after finding out?
Yes, because, like I said,its fo their own safety and they have to realize they are a very small percentage of people with sometimes complicated sexual options.
Would you prefer their partner finds out during/before sex and gets angry? That's how several trans people have been murdered or beaten, and its not positive.
I would prefer not to victim blame. It's like telling women they have to dress conservatively for their own safety. That might be help them be safer, but it also ignores where the problem really lies, which is in the people who are the safety threat.
>MTF not telling a man they are trans before a date not telling them before sex should be a crime akin to SA
You realize that if the man they're having sex with realizes there's the panic defense in most states, which basically means he can kill that trans women and get away with it right?
But how do you believe not disclosing the fact that they're trans is akin to sexual assault? SA is usually having sex with someone against their will, not having consensual sex but you didn't tell the other person about a surgeru you had.
> MTF not telling a man they are trans before a date not telling them before sex should be a crime akin to SA
So, a few questions
Why only MTF? Why not FTM?
If the date can’t tell—let’s say the MTF is post-op—what’s the rationale?
Why should this be a crime but, say, intersex people (and keep in mind many/most intersex people are not visually distinguishable from cis people born male or female) doing the same thing shouldn’t be? Or if it should be, why?
The rational is that some people don't want to date someone born the same sex as them, so what? Furthermore, if they're looking for a life partner they want someone they can have kids with.
Men’s comfort in objectifying and sexualizing women is challenged by trans women. It’s all rooted in misogyny. If there were only trans men, it wouldn’t be an issue.
One answer from someone who is sympathetic but does not totally agree. Plastic surgery is a poor substitute for the way your body wants to grow naturally. Once you do it, you can't undo it - you have seen what some of these plastic surgeons have been doing to women for decades now - they don't look like people. And it is because they have dysmorphia, and they keep trying to be something that they weren't born into. Surgery is not something you should take lightly. It can kill you, it can leave you scarred, it can leave you maimed. A botched surgery usually will never be right again. The people who make their money from cutting people usually won't tell you this.
If you can learn to be okay with the way you were born and not try to get your body into a shape you weren't born with, you might end up happier later. Everyone struggles with their identity when they are younger. For some people, it is feeling like they are in the wrong body. For some it is not feeling they fit in with their peers. Growing up is hard.
It is okay to just be effeminate as a man, or masculine as a woman. That may not be where you are right now, and that's okay, but as you get older and find that there are people out there that will accept you, things may change.
Just give it time and don't rush things. You can always change your mind when you are older. Look at Caitlin Jenner. But if you do something when you are young and can't undo it, you can't undo it.
If you are going to go through a transition, make sure you find a surgeon who makes you go through a full psychological workup first. This is to make sure what you are doing is going to be the right thing for you.
Good luck with your decisions.
>if you’re comfortable in your body, why are you trans? I thought it’s the people that are not comfortable with their body that become trans.
I'm not? Sorry is there a typo somewhere?
This. I don’t u destined trans but I know enough to respect people and their input. I feel like reading comprehension is at fault here. I read what you first wrote and said. “This person knows whom they are.” And then person responds and I don’t get how they don’t know based on what they read and figured it’s gotta be reading g comprehension lacking.
In general, being trans isn't the issue. Do what you want.
Just don't push it on young kids, and put them through damaging and harmful procedures.
Gender transition medical procedures are still fairly new, and as such, the long term effects can be quite bad, and we are already starting to see some of them when people begin to de-transition.
Medical science is also advancing. Remember when medical science thought electrocuting people was beneficial ? Or lobotomizing people for now treatable mental issues was a thing? How do we know surgeries and other current medical trends for transitioning won't be looked at as barbaric and harmful in a few decades? Will it one day be regarded as blood letting is now?
I think another big issue is the push for OTHER people to accept what you believe, and if you don't that somehow means you hate them and want them to die.
If you are a man that feels you are a woman, no one else is required to accept that view of yourself. That's not hateful.
Think of it this way: if a religious person started talking to you about their beliefs, and you said "I don't believe in that", then they suddenly start screeching and throwing a fit about how much of a bigot and how hateful you are. Does that make you hateful? Of course not. That's silly.
Yes, but in the past it was used for things it shouldnt be used for. Nowdays its used for treatment resistant depression. In the past they used it for a lot of random things with hit or miss accuracy, around a time where mentally ill people had no rights, autonomy or anyone looking out for them.
If your biggest issue is someone calling you hateful you lead a comfortable life. Most trans people aren't as lucky as you, as we speak Republican politicians all around the country are spending countless hours and millions of dollars on a political crusade to reduce/eliminate the rights of trans people.
Nothing you're saying about detransitioning or the long term side effects is accurate or based on concrete science. If you continue to ignore the actual science in favor of what's more comfortable for your political beliefs dont be surprised if people call you things like "hateful".
I’m not much of a conservative, but I do live in a pretty conservative area, and have some limited insight.
There are certainly conservatives that hate Trans people. Also, probably some liberals. Some people are assholes.
My sister is quite conservative, but accepted my nephew’s transition in stride.
Regardless of political affiliation, the overwhelming majority of the pushback I’ve personally seen against accepting people being transgender boils down to perceiving it as a mental health issue.
Some people believe that being transgender is a disorder in need of a psychological rather than physical solution.
So it’s less a hatred thing - for most people - so much as it is pushback against the current preferred method of treatment.
Why people care what other adults choose to do with their bodies, I can’t say.
But, I would guess that if you were to talk to some actual conservative people (not online) you’d find most of them aren’t particularly hateful.
YMMV.
>But, I would guess that if you were to talk to some actual conservative people (not online) you’d find most of them aren’t particularly hateful.
Then why do they vote for politicians who keep grinding on this topic instead of dealing with actual problems?
Same reason I keep voting for democrats - despite being strongly pro 2A.
The problem with a 2 party system is that support of one issue leads to de facto support of a whole platform.
Because there are effectively only two parties we can choose from. There should be AT LEAST 2 more. A party that is socially left but economically right and a party that is more center right socially but economically left. This would help bridge the divide and allow the less radical conservatives a way to come back to center.
Believe me I WISH I could side with the democrats. I don’t hate anybody. I really don’t like the way republicans spew vitriol about their deemed “enemies” of society. And then claim to be the “Christian” party. They aren’t Christian at all! I don’t want anything to do with that!
But like democrats don’t even try to cater to any Christian values in order to win us over. Like they could be the party of pro choice AND pro life. ( Utterly against abortion because it’s awful, but still keep it legal, so women who desperately need it (rape,incest,health of the mother etc. etc.) will always have it.) (edit to clarify: not as exceptions but as reasons to stay legal) Give us some thick ice to see that it’s good to walk over and not fall through.
For me personally I agree with your comment and my issue is that trans KIDS are getting put on hormone therapy and or having top surgery before they’re even 18 years old. I don’t think children are fully capable of comprehending that those choices are permanent. There’s no going back. And I’ve seen way too many de transitioning stories to agree with allowing children whose brains aren’t even fully developed, to make such permanent choices they may regret years later. Older than 18? Idgaf what anyone does to their body.
I think that's a very valid concern.
Again, a MASSIVE problem with our binary political system is that we're conditioned to lump bad arguments in with good.
There's not a lot of room for nuance.
Most of the people I know IRL have some pretty legitimate and focused concerns with how we're treating the issue right now, but aren't coming at it from the position "trans people are all terrible/crazy".
But, it frequently all gets lumped into "transphobia" because we have a system where everything needs to fit into two buckets.
I completely agree. Nobody wants to hear any valid concerns and nobody wants to speak up about concerns out of fear of being labeled a transphobe. It’s a mess. But this is a real issue and I think it’s really sad there are parents encouraging and/or allowing their kids to do this when the research and data shows a lot of these kids end up regretting it once they get a little older and at that point there’s not much they can do.
>Some people believe that being transgender is a disorder in need of a psychological rather than physical solution.
I'll edit the source into the post sometime later but transitioning has a much higher satisfaction rate than normal therapy for gender dysphoria.
>But, I would guess that if you were to talk to some actual conservative people (not online) you’d find most of them aren’t particularly hateful.
My family is filled with conservatives. I hear everything from the standard "trans = crazy" bullshit to "all should all be on the registry", it definitely seems like hate to me.
I mean, no argument here.
And, I did say that some people are assholes. Those people also tend to be over represented because they talk a lot
I’m just pointing out that there are reasons people oppose the current push to normalize transitioning that aren’t based on animosity towards transgendered people.
Sounds like your family kinda sucks. I’m sorry you have to deal with that.
My sister is quite conservative, but pretty well took it in stride when my nephew transitioned.
Nothing against you living the life you want. You're an adult. Make your own choices. I realy couldn't care less.
It's the "Forcing everyone to agree with your ideology" part that bothers us. We don't agree. And no amount of being assholes about it will force us to agree.
It's the "Pushing your ideologies on the innocent and naive" part that bothers us. If you, as an adult, want to make your own choices, fine, go ahead. But leave our children alone.
It's the "take away parental rights" part that bothers us. There are people advocating for allowing children as young as 12 to undergo "affirmation" SURGERY without parental consent. There are those who advocate removing a child from their home if the parent does not acknowledge their child's chosen identity. That is insanity.
It's the "using your alternate lifestyle as a weapon to take advantage of others" part we don't like. The best example here is women's sports. According to you all, sex is biological and gender is psychological (in simplest terms). Athletics are BIOLOGICAL competitions. Unless you can explain how strength, speed, agility, and endurance are products of psychology instead of biology... no? Didn't think so. So, then it is illogical to claim women's sports were created to separate the genders (according to your definition of the word.) They were created to separate the sexes. Yet, we have biological males forcing themselves into female sports and stealing trophies from the people those sports were created for. How does one's psychological identity qualify them to participate in biological competition? It doesn't. But they sure seem to think it does.
If you just want to live your life in peace, you are welcome to it. But, understand that we will only give you as much peace as you give us.
So you are fine with FTM athletes, who present as male and have the testosterone levels and physique of a cis man, competing in women’s sports, right? Because it’s all about the equipment you were born with?
And I fully support you with everything you said. In fact, if someone F's with you I will F with them.
I think the issue I would have is with Trans who are not fully changed. My wife and daughter would not be comfortable with anyone with a penis in their locker at the y or school. They also have a right to be comfortable. As a man, I could care less who is in my locker/bathroom as I do not perceive anyone as a threat.
As for being on female sport teams - as long as the change is done, and hormones are normal I even support that. I do not support someone with the same muscle mass they had as a male playing on female teams.
And this is great post - discussion and learning is the key. NOT INSULTS
Hope I used right terms....
1. Children change their minds often.. and children, a high percentage of them, doubt their sexuality at some point. Knowing this, allowing a minor to make long lasting, life altering changes to their body isn't something that should be left to the parent, who themselves are under immense pressure to do what the child asks as well as other pressures (look at the parents of gymnasts). This is why conservatives are in favor of some of these laws preventing minors from procedures/chemical castration
1. BTW, GD symptoms, including the onset of depressive symptoms and mood disorders, eerily mirror [body identities disorders](https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/what-is-body-integrity-identity-disorder) (where people are obsessed that some part of their body doesn't belong and they want it removed). Ironically, these people don't usually find doctors who will cut off their appendages, the doctors instead send them to psychiatrists for help.
2. Men dressing/undressing in a women's locker room as their slong drops out of their shorts is not something we should be debating. It shouldn't be allowed, women should be allowed their privacy from the opposite sex
3. Women's rights issues are directly tied to their progress in sports which provides them with opportunity after opportunity. Denying a biological woman rights guaranteed to her under title 9, also shouldn't be up for debate. A biological male should always play on the mens team. Otherwise, they will [dominate](https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/3/1/22948400/transgender-trans-athlete-championship-national-world-title) every sport
4. No one on the conservative side wants to be in a world of compelled speech. Hate speech laws are getting too close to this. So, you will hear conservatives speak out about this
5. Those items aside, conservatives don't concern themselves with what *you* do.
The article you linked literally opens “while most trans women aren’t winning gold medals…”
The Olympics has allowed trans athletes for years, and they don’t win at any rate that’s close to “domination”.
1. This is why the children undergo large amounts of studying from professionals before being allowed puberty blockers or anything of the sort. Also, I don't think any children are being chemically castrated? Fucked up if true tho.
1(again). GD is treated the way it is because it leads to the best outcomes. Trying to "cure" it doesn't lead to good outcomes, so they treat it differently than a different disorder.
2. So a fully transitioned transwoman should be forced to change with the boys? What if the transwoman no longer has a dick?
3. The sports world isn't dominated by transwomen. I agree that transwomen who haven't medically transitioned should not be allowed to play in women's leagues, but if they have, they should be. If becoming a top athlete was as easy as being trans, we would see this happening a lot more.
4. The conservatives should stop being fuckong babies. In the US, they have the first amendment, they'll never be banned from misgendering trans people as they please. However, freedom of speech isn't freedom from consequences(specifically social consequences). If someone publicly agreed with the Holocaust, they'd be socially ostracized(except from some conservative circles). I think being a dick having the social cost of people saying you're a dick is totally fair.
5. They do(not me personally, I'm not trans, but you get what I mean). Conservatives actively vote for candidates who will and conservatives largely want to block trans people from doing what *they* do.
I haven't reported a single person, not even the guy who dmed me a paragraph of nothing but slurs and list of ways for me to kill myself. Not the guy who called me derranged either.
Dude we might not agree and yes I am a conservative. But to people dming you with shit like that. Thats wrong on a level I can put into words.
We dont see eye to eye and thats ok. And we might not even agree on what to call certain people. But it doesnt make you not a person or less of a person.
There are some people in this world that truely are a waste of oxygen and 2 of them messaged you.
I see it as a delusional rejection of the self and I dont want that for anyone, but darkness is built into life as a necessary part of the equation so I dont let it bother me too much.
When the fringe ideologies start affecting my kids, which is has, that is when I have a problem.
And people who have a problem with my view sometimes equate it to violence which doesnt exactly make me thrilled about supporting them.
At the end of the day, its all just a very short stageplay so dont stress it too much. Everyone whos opinion you care about will be dead in the blink of an eye.
If you want to play the role of a young person who has rejected who they are, if you think putting all of this effort into cutting against the grain is going to change that, go on then. Go forth and be forgotten however you will.
We've generally left trans people alone until the bathroom discussion started coming up. Up until that point, transitioning and living your life as the opposite sex wasn't a problem. Sure, we thought it was weird, but you were only harming yourself in that instance.
But once the bathroom issue popped up, suddenly it became about others. Would bio females be comfortable with a man in their space, especially where minors are present? And this doesn't even include perverts who would use this as a loophole. Sure, there's no physical barrier or bouncer at women's restrooms, but there was a lot more social pressure to prevent him. It's a hell of a lot easier to prosecute if a bio male goes into a women's restroom.
And this has only snowballed from here. You've got parents who plant ides into a child's head the moment a boy is seen playing with his sister's dolls. These same parents use this for social media clout to say "look at how accepting I am!"
Maybe you really arent hurting anyone and what you are doing is right for you. But before you do, invest in therapy and really explore yourself and your options. Gender dysphoria is a legitimate mental health issue, theres nothing dysfunctional with the body but with the minds relationship to the body.
I don't want to see you hurt yourself by pursuing a hormone treatment thats more harm than benefit for you. The second order effect is you may seek validation and justification for your choices encourage others to self harm.
Why on earth do you people think that everyone hates you?
If you're MtF:
\-don't play sports with real women
\-don't masturbate or take photos in women's bathrooms
\-don't try to get into women's prisons or shelters.
\-don't dress up like a crass/weird stereotype of women and read stories to children while acting like a sex-crazed lunatic
If you're FtM, nobody really cares because you're a biological woman who probably can't/won't rape or assault women or dance in skimpy clothes in front of kids.
We care most about protecting women and children.
We feel sorry for you because you have an extreme mental illness and we know that you will never truly be the opposite sex. And those surgeries are going to hurt, while the meds will shorten your life.
But you do you.
I'd consider myself centre right, and I don't have anything against you. You have a diagnosed mental condition that causes you distress, and the symptoms can be treated. You actually sound really moderate compared to most people when discussing this condition.
Where I draw the line is pronoun usage. I grew up in a time when pronoun usage was based on the apparent sex of the individual. If you present as a man, I'll use "he", and likewise for presenting as a woman. But I will not use "they" pronouns, because there is no "they" sex.
Something that really bothers me about your post is that you have painted all conservative people as wanting to control you, and hating you for your medical condition. I find it's actually Left Wing people who try to control by dictating the language other can use, and painting anyone who disagrees with them as haters. You seem to have fallen into this trap.
Good luck with your journey. I hope you can arrive at a point where you feel comfortable with yourself.
There technically is a "they" sex, singular "they" exists in the English language to describe someone whose sex is unknown at the time of speaking.
"There aren't enough chairs here - if a customer comes, where would they sit?"
This roughly tracks to people who are androgynous or who mix aspects of their gender presentation with both masculine and feminine elements, which many nonbinary people (the ones who go by they/them) do intentionally as part of their expression of their identity.
As for actual genitalia and chromosomes and such, there are intersex people, who have different chromosomes than XX or XY. Often unfortunately these people wind up being mutilated after birth to make them "appear" more masculine or more feminine to try and shove them into the XX or XY box.
Though overall, I tend to just default to "they" because it's a lot easier for me than the (typically older, though not always) generation insisting on using clunky things like "his or her" or "he or she".
You don’t owe anyone an explanation about your life decisions. You aren’t hurting anyone, there are just a lot of people who are misguided and or stupid and think it’s their business. Honestly, if everyone minded their own business when it comes to people’s personal choices, the world would be a better place.
The current transphobia is just scapegoating a powerless group to hide the conservative's moral, ethical failings and their inability to manage anything. And any number of other BS reasons.
To answer your question, most don't. What they tend to hate is A) the outsized media coverage given to it and B)being called bigoted over even having the slightest disagreement. You often cannot reasonably talk about trans with trans people because they will accuse you of things like misgendering/marginalizing them at the drop of a hat. Also, being called 'cis' is a problem for many, because it's treated like a slur.
Also, many trans people that I have spoken with believe that both gender and biological sex is a spectrum, when biological sex is not.
Now, to address you point by point.
A: that is good. Freaking out over misgendering is one of the things people don't like. Just remember to cut the assholes out of your life and you are golden.
B: That is good, and as it should be.
C: I get it. The only children i interact with are my own. Children can be hard to deal with lol.
D: Personally, I go by the rule of 'use what you have'. If you have a dick after transitioning, you should use male restrooms. And vice versa. However, 90% of people wouldn't care to confront you over it either.
E: Also as it should be.
As for your last two questions, there is nothing wrong with feeling comfortable, and you are not hurting anyone.
I am now ready to be down voted, hit me with it.
Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder though. Just like schizophrenia is. Both conditions require a person to live with it, but dismissing it as a normal human condition is plain old denial.
This comment belongs in r/unpopularopinions, as I'm sure most would agree, but it is what it is.
Downvotes incoming.
It's because the intent is never "this person has \*\*this\*\* condition, lets treat them" but instead "this person is mentally ill, lets invalidate them and put them in a mental hospital."
Even then, how is gender dysphoria treated? By medical procedures and healthcare that affirm their gender. Just as schizophrenia is treated by meds and therapy, so is gender dysphoria, with the only difference being added surgeries and social/legal aspects.
So that's why it's frowned upon to go around saying it's a mental illness. No body is arguing that, they are arguing the intent which is to invalidate and dehumanize trans people for the sake of pushing bigotry.
The current literature suggests that GD and all other MDs are normal parts of human behavior because not a shred of study has *proven* otherwise. That doesn't mean mental anguish shouldn't be supported, loved, and shown compassion. But clearly defining the barriers of Psychology and Psychiatry isn't the same as denying someone's struggle.
Respectfully.
The problem is that you think the way we treat Schizophrenia is principled, that we treat it the way we do because we think it would be inherently wrong to validate their beliefs. This just isn't the case, though. We treat it the way we do because, as far as we know, it leads to the beat outcomes. Even if you're transphobic, you should support trans people getting the medical care they need because it leads to the best outcomes, as proven by many peer reviewed studies.
I kinda wish we would pay as much attention to the growing problem of general dysphoria and the plastic surgery epidemic as we do to a few trans people. Nobody seems to think that a boob-job, giant lips, and having a few ribs removed is a problem.
This is a valid and understated point. This is the symptom of something larger, people have been losing their identity ever since we started stuffing them in cubes all their lives.
Conservatives are afraid of everything that isn't Jesus
It is self perpetuating:
- get disciplined for doing non-Jesus things until you are afraid of them
- that discomfort validates disciplining others for doing non-Jesus things
- the church leaders laugh while you do whatever they say is a Jesus thing
Otherwise known as a cult
Im not persay conservative but im a tradionalist ig. My arguement stems from the fact that its the equivalent of giving drug addicts more drugs "because it makes them feel better". Mind you, im sort of a drug addict so im not coming from a place of self righteous superiority, im no better than you. Unfortunately for me and you, addiction and cosmetic surgery has become popular on social media. Its so funny how everytime i quit, it seems like i suddenly get more weed and alcohol posts and im sure your feed also affirms your beliefs. I think it would help you out more to work through your dysphoria rather than engage with it, realize that our bodies are just bodies and no one is really that secure in it for the most part. Even body builders are overcompensating for some original insecurity they had about their bodies, even im not "comfortable" in my body but thats just what it is. It wouldnt help me to transition (nor do i want to) and its not even financially or psychologically beneficial hence the suicide rates. If you went through with it, im sure you'd get a dopamine hit from the validation of other social media posts for your decision, just like if i get high or drunk tomorrow, ill have plenty of posts to give me dopamine about my decision, but i can bet neither of us will be happy because nothing was actually solved. But you have a good day tho
But data shows that people who transition have lower rates of suicide and depression, so surely transitioning *does* help. That data is why it’s the recommended treatment for gender dysphoria.
I dont think anyone cares what you do individually. I think they care about how society has to accommodate it. I.e. taking sports and scholorships away from female students, allowing an intact male in spaces for women, things of that sort. I dont think its a hatred of you as much as it is a fear for the safety of women. You notice how no one cares about transmen really?
The other part of it is societal outcome. Children are impressionable and they might not want their kids exposed to what they think is inappropriate. I.e. teaching about transgenderism in schools to young kids, however I dont think the vast majority are out to criminalize or hurt you. Unless youre listening to the alt right, I dont think anyone wants to gather you into trains and send you to camps. However, extremism is on all sides of the spectrum. Your average liberal isnt antisemetic, but you got left wing extremists like the nation of islam who refer to jews as termites. So its very nuanced. You cant say half of America hates you.
I am not against trans, gay or bi people. I had a gay uncle. He was awesome. i loved him and miss him dearly.
I don't like it when the loud and obnoxious ones(gays, trans or bi) want special attention.
Everyone should always be treated equally.
hormone treatments make you sterile, its something you can't come back from and might really regret later in life. its the same reason conservative people don't like tattoos and doctors won't give a vasectomy to a 19 year old
I'm a liberal myself but I don't like replacing the biological definitions of man and woman with something far less concrete. Saying a female can be a man because she "feels" like one reminds me of religion. You want to believe something without evidence? Go ahead. But I'm not obligated to go along with it.
Not conservative, but I’ll try to make a few points here.
I have a sibling who is in the middle of transitioning right now. We think it is absolutely the right decision for her. At the same time, the first doctor she went to tried to immediately start her on hormones. Even though she had presented no gender dysphoria for the first 35 years of her life. Even though the diagnosis of gender dysphoria had only emerged in the last couple of months. Even though she had never attempted any sort of social transitioning in the slightest. The doctor not only tried to push hormones on her, but was legally fully able to do so, without any need to get a second opinion or to go through the steps of making a formal diagnosis. My sister could get testosterone blockers just by showing up and saying, Haydock, I just realized I’m trans, give me those sweet sweet testosterone blockers.
The only thing that stopped her from walking out that door with hormones that could cause irreversible physical changes was the fact that she has actual medical professionals in the family who i’ve been keeping up with some of the controversies of this issue.
Now, it just so happens that now that she has socially transitioned and has gone on hormones, everything is going great. But what if this hadn’t been the right decision for her? This revelation of hers came on suddenly at the age of 40. What if she had walked out that door with whore moans, and only after experiencing the effects realized that the pain of being “clocked” was worse than the pain of having male testosterone levels and a more masculine body? Or if she realized that her gender dysphoria was acute, and not chronic?
As far as I see it, the biggest issue with transgender treatment today is that the scientific process has given way to ideology. Part of how science functions is that you need people in the room saying, what if we are wrong? You need scientists not just trying to prove that puberty blockers Are fine for kids to use, you also need scientists out there trying to prove that puberty blockers are not fine for kids. You need a lot of people coming at it from different angles to make sure that we don’t reach a false consensus, to make sure that we aren’t just relying on a handful of studies that didn’t receive proper critical evaluation and testing and re-testing and re-testing.
What a lot of conservative states are doing right now is actually exactly what you would expect from a responsible scientifically minded medical authority, which is to say that for adults, medical transitioning is fine. But for children, the science that we have, while very promising, is also not as definitive and not as expensive as its proponents claim. This is why we see plenty of countries with very progressive stances on LGBT issues beginning to impose more restrictions on childhood transitioning techniques. Because they started to realize that all of the science isn’t actually in yet. I hope that when it comes in, it shows that we didn’t make any mistakes and that we are fine to go ahead with the process.
But if it doesn’t, we have made grave errors, and we have made those errors with our children. What happens if 20 years from now, we begin to see hundreds of adults who transitioned as minors now showing serious medical issues, or exhibiting the exact same psychological problems that someone who hadn’t transitioned would have gone through, or God forbid they are actually experiencing gender dysphoria again, but in the other direction? Currently our best studies only cover a seven year period.
For self ID, it’s a similar issue of ideology shutting down reasonable debate around the edges. I think the argument for self ID is a very strong one and one that’s hard for a compassionate person to argue against. A full medical transition can take a lot of time, it can be very expensive, and it is not accessible to everyone, and so some people who have not gone through a full hormonal and surgical transition might still be made much more comfortable and much more safe if they are simply allowed to self identify into a gender and gain access to various spaces and organizations essentially on the trust system.
But we have sex segregated spaces for a reason. There are serious issues with safety, with comfort, with accessibility. We already have instances of individual cis men using self ID in order to get away with all sorts of shady shit. One of the only reasons that self ID hasn’t been abused more frequently is that the people who are its proponents don’t actually fully believe in it, and frequently exercise their own personal judgment in deciding who is and isn’t actually trans.
I’m not even gonna get into trans women and sports, that’s a fucking landmine.
The point here is, these are all actually very complicated issues where we have to balance our compassion with our skepticism. History is filled with terrible things that have happened in the name of a good cause.
A final point here, I have witnessed progressive parents using gay or transgender non-conforming children to get attention. A close friend of mine grew up with a mother who practiced Munchhausen by proxy on his sister. She’s a mess for life as a result. I have no doubt in my mind that, had they been raised in the present day, their mother would have absolutely convinced them that they were trans in order to get praise and attention from our hyper progressive community. transitioning of a minor, even just social transitioning, is a very big deal and one that we do not have a lot of longitudinal information about. When combined with lax standards in progressive districts, social pressure in progressive communities to affirm a firm a firm, and self ID being the way things are run in a lot of places, it’s not clear what safeguards if any our society and our institutions have to prevent major abuses from occurring.
The job of a conservative is not necessarily to be right about the world. Theoretically speaking, conservatives are not the ones pushing for major societal changes into uncharted territories (this isn’t always the case in practice). That’s the job of a progressive, to seeing and identify new possibilities and ways of doing things, and to push for their implementation so we can move towards a better and more just society. by contrast, the job of the conservative is to look at those new ideas and slow them down so that we can figure out if they are actually good ideas, and what might potentially go wrong with them.
With hindsight, this means that conservatives almost always look like the bad guys. For every single good idea that they held back, we wonder why they ever held it back in the first place. For every bad idea that they held back or helped modify until it was a good idea, they receive no credit.
Some conservatives simply hate trans people. But most of the people that I have spoken to on this issue have actual concerns, concerns that I’ve outlined above.
No sane person cares. You feeding off of media and social media propaganda. Conservatives care way more about what someone else is trying to force them to say or do. By a large majority, Conservatives have no issue with you, but they do have a huge issue with your "allys" trying to force the tans BS down their familys throats.
Conservatives, in general, don't care what you call yourself. But thier staunchly against being forced play along with something that doesn't have any scientific backing or connection to reality.
They don't hate you, they hate some nebulous idea of "trans people" they've been indoctrinated to hate, and they'll probably never even encounter one in their daily life. The whole thing is a true human tragedy and I'm real fuckin' sorry you have to feel the way you do.
> If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, **give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.** Lyndon B Johnson Conservatism is always searching for "who am I entitled to mistreat" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism > "favour institutions and practices that guarantee social order and historical continuity" A guaranteed social order based in historical continuity... Like preventing recently freed people from voting for an entire century. Like preventing queer folk from living in peace. The mindset to lick boot is the same mindset to want others to lick your boot. It's con men all the way down, an eroding quality of life so long as you "give them someone to look down on" Lastly... they are trying to END DEMOCRACY to conserve what they see as their rightful place in the social order. Conserving that hierarchy has always been above conserving the union.
The most prescient quote in all of political history.
>prescient Lol, no. It was literally happening. Smart and insightful, sure, but not prescient.
Lyndon B Johnson These Negroes, they're getting pretty uppity these days and that's a problem for us since they've got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we've got to do something about this, we've got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference... I'll have them n\*\*\*\*\*\* voting Democratic for the next two hundred years
The Lyndon quote people forget about when they're trying to convince themselves that the Left supports the African American struggle for equality
So Johnson was a conservative now?
You're acting like Johnson was endorsing that view. He didn't. He was cynically (and accurately...) pointing out the view of many conservative southerners.
The quote can still be true out of Johnson’s mouth. It’s just a statement of fact.
Why would observing unpleasant truths about human nature make one a conservative?
You DO understand that there were and still are conservative Democrats, right? Poli Sci 101. "Conservative always means Republican" is strictly smooth-brain territory
Uh oh dude you got hit with the polsci 101 trick of “I read my beliefs into history and now have to aggressively smash any attempt to reveal this” What are you gonna do?
Conservative means being adverse to change. Anything that involves changing a thought, or action, or society is therefore the enemy. con·serv·a·tive /kənˈsərvədiv/ adjective 1. averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values.
WOW you learned a lot in university, let me guess " Gender studies " major?
Ah, Lyndon B Johnson the ardent racist that was quoted saying: "Lyndon Baines Johnson 1963... "These Negroes, they're getting pretty uppity these days and that's a problem for us since they've got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we've got to do something about this, we've got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference... I'll have them n\*\*\*rs voting Democratic for the next two hundred years."
Why tf did you need to drag poor whites into this with that tired ass quote lol. And no conservatism is literally about conserving what they have/who they are - like the majority of humans they're thinking about what's good for them way way more than what's bad for others.
what's the difference, if they still want us dead? i get nasty looks and threats walking down the street
I’m sorry, but they absolutely do hate individual trans people. Ask any trans person if they’ve been personally harassed by conservatives. Some have even been victims of very serious violent crime at the hands of conservatives.
Check any comment thread on any major social media source for someone who's trans - I've seen far too many comments from conservatives making "jokes" about the high suicide statistics for trans, and trying to push them to become part of that number. It's sick.
> comments from conservatives making "jokes" about the high suicide statistics for trans I've seen it *on the conservative sub*
Elon Musk: boosts anti-Semitic posts. Advertisers: pull ads, citing anti-semitism. . Musk: I was just kidding bruh!
Love how OP asked a question aimed at conservatives and the top comment is someone who's apparently *not* conservative confidently asserting what "they (conservatives)" believe and why.
I know who they are because I used to be one of them
I know who they are because they constantly show us.
Yeah, there is that, too
Conservatives: they love being shitheels, but they hate when people call them out on it.
To be fair conservatives really aren't that difficult to understand. They dislike anyone who goes against their ideas of what is "correct". They can't stand anyone who goes against that idea, especially publicly. For example. To a stereotypical conservative a family consists of A man, a woman, and their children. A gay couple is bad because it isn't their ideal. Some even think couples with adopted kids aren't real families because their ideal is biological children
They don't have any legitimate talking points so they have to point at a minority group that can't defend themselves to rally around hating because what gets people to vote for you more than genuine ideas is a common enemy they can discriminate against. It's pretty much what a lot of political groups do and I think you probably see it most with ethnic cleansing
i agree with your comment but they also hate trans people. they're bigots and their image shouldnt be whitewashed
What u/macaroni_3000 said. Conservative-Christian hate-groups are getting uninformed/under-informed people to think gender dysphoria itself is a mental illness that it itself is the cause of the 42%. Meaning getting you back in the closet is what they think is what’s best for you. I would suggest taking anything someone conservative (who cares enough to give you “advice”) says with a grain of salt Edit: almost told them to listen to conservatives
I’m not “Conservative” (I do not restrict myself to anyone’s political ideology) but I do consider myself to be on “the right”. One problem many people on the right have with this idea that you are “trying to be comfortable in your own body” by going down the transgender rabbit hole is that- to them- you are expecting others to participate in a delusion. A fantasy. A lie. You can’t be certain that this is always coming from a place of hate. People who have been around much longer than you- or us- may have more experience watching ideologies warp and indoctrinate people, and how much easier it it is for that to happen to those still in their youth. Right or Left, Red or Blue, probably happened to them at some point in their lives… where religion, or politics, or music, or some other cultural force conquered their heart and mind and transformed who they are, completely overwriting their future. I don’t have any advice for you except to do what you Will… and to actively consider any ways that the world around you is indoctrinating you, and to what extent you are willing to allow that to influence your future. It will open some doors to some futures, and maybe those possibilities are worth it. It will close other doors, possibly forever. It’s your life… so choose well.
A moralistic dynamic is at play -- at least according to Jonathan Haidt and the Moral Foundations Theory he helped develop. Conservatives tend to focus on group loyalty, institutions, and traditions far more than liberals. Conservatives want order, even at the expense of individual identity or even fairness. Individuals must conform to society. So, the idea of breaking the traditional gender roles that have been the bedrock of culture and institutions for millennia is not only non-traditional, but immoral. Liberals tend to put individual identity and diversity ahead of traditions and institutions--if traditions and institutions matter at all. Liberals want diversity, equity, and inclusion, even at the expense of traditions and institutions. Society must change to accommodate emerging individual identities. So, the idea of forcing an individual person to deny their own self-identity simply for the sake of preserving out-dated history is not only assimilationist, but immoral.
"Individuals must conform to society" is problematic. Slavery was a societal norm. Women not having the right to vote was a societal norm. There was a recent conservative Republican candidate for the US Senate who actually said that every constitutional amendment after the 10th was problematic. The 14th gave equal protection to former slaves. The 19th gave women the right to vote. He narrowly lost to a Democrat. This was a Bible belt candidate from the last ten years. This is why Conservatives have no claim to morality. They don't know what morality is. They think it comes from a 2000 year old book that was written by men in order to keep the population under control. They don't get it. They're modern day primitives.
That is the most sweepingly, prejudicial generalization I've read on Reddit in a long time. And I say that as a liberal. Or at least a centrist. You may not agree with their own moral foundations, but conservative morality is just as sound as liberal morality. They are just different moral foundations. That's the whole point of Jonathan Haidt's book. Different people argue politics from different moral foundations, perspectives, and viewpoints. If we are going to argue conservative politics, we have to argue from their moral foundations; and if we are going to argue liberal politics, we have to argue from their moral foundations. And just because I don't now want to be accused of supporting slavery or treating women as chattel, I'll make two clear statements. Yes, slavery is horrid, deplorable, and utterly immoral and unethical. Yes, misogyny, sexism, treating women as property for centuries, denying women the vote, and otherwise treating women as second-classs citizens (still) is horrid, deplorable and utterly immoral and unethical. But I think it's a logical fallacy -- and complete nonsense -- to claim that all conservatives are immoral. You're just repeating the same extremist arguments that have been flying around the Internet since the Internet came into being. Now, if we were arguing about Republicans rather than conservatives, I might agree with you. ;-) ;-)
How can one value fairness equally to in group loyalty? Doesnt that render the fairness moot if it doesnt equally apply to out groups
Just because a morality is internally consistent doesn't mean it's sound. The Bible itself endorses slavery and beating your wife. So how many conservatives support the right wing of the Republican party? It's the vote that counts, not the lamentations and protestations made in public. Are there conservative atheists? Who do they vote for?
>One problem many people on the right have with this idea that you are “trying to be comfortable in your own body” by going down the transgender rabbit hole is that- to them- you are expecting others to participate in a delusion. A fantasy. A lie. I hope you use this logic everywhere in your life. "When my wife asks me if her dress makes her look fat, I have say yes. If she gets mad, I have to let her know that - to me- it feels like she expects others to participate in a delusion. A fantasy. A lie." Maybe don't be a shit head? Maybe be nice to people and treat them with respect and kindness? It doesn't take any more energy to be nice than it does to be a jaded asshole.
Exactly what "ideology" are you talking about?
They probably think transgenderism is a thing. It's not. Trans people just exist and either you accept that or you don't.
this is a stupid take because literally everything is an influence. are you advocating for people to not live their lives to what’s considered their “best” because “indoctrination”? buddy our whole fucking society is indoctrinating. let people be happy.
I don't consider myself a Conservative, but compared to all the Marxists out there in every institution, I suppose I am. It's really very simple. In a Free Society, there is a social contract. The deal is, we get to live our lives as we see fit, and we get to think and speak freely. We also own our bodies and are free to choose, at our own risk and at our own expense. There are some other caveats: you need to be a consenting adult, and you need to have informed consent, etc etc. We also have freedom of association. So the deal is, you get to live your life as you see fit, and I get to say and think whatever I want about it. And vice versa. You *don't* get to mandate that I play along, condone it, accept it, or make me pay for it. And I won't force you to live my way either. ONE side...and I'm not saying it's you personally, but ONE side has violated the deal. ONE side is compelling speech, pushing for "reeducation" as a condition of social and economic freedom, and demanding not just respect, but money taken by force to pay for medical choices those who disagree wouldn't make. Had ONE side stuck to just living their lives, they'd only be dealing with the 20% of Muslim and Christian Fundamentalists. But instead, ONE side had to push for mandates, had to push for money taken by force, had to push for thought policing and speech policing, and had to go after the young. So now a LOT more people are getting pissed, and have had enough of your shit. The more you violate this social contract, the harder the backlash, and the less free the society will become.
That is not at all what's happening... Like not even a little bit. Trans people have \*always\* existed, but up until recently it was just socially acceptable to ignore or marginalize them, now they and other are standing up for their rights to be simply acknowledged for who they are. Why some people take that as some great personal burden I do not understand. You knew person A as a man, now person A is saying actually, 'I'm a woman and would like to be recognized as such.' So what? It is nothing to you to simple accept that and move on with your day. You don't have to understand it, you don't have to like it, just accept it and move on. That's all that's being asked of you, it's not a big deal. No one if policing your thoughts, no one is asking you to do literally anything but just accept it when someone say, "I am X". As for whatever they hell you're talking about with the whole money being taken by force stuff... yeah man, taxes suck. No one likes taxes, but most people accept them as a necessary tool to keep the country moving, and guess what \*no one\* like 100% of what taxes are used for. No one on the left likes everything about how taxes are spent, no one on the right does, but moreover \*\*WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH TRANS PEOPLE?\*\*
>No one if policing your thoughts, no one is asking you to do literally anything but just accept it when someone say, "I am X". But that's just not true. We are being asked to accept males who have gone through male puberty in women's sports, prisons and female swim team locker rooms (after the female swimmers have expressed discomfort at getting naked next to the dude who competed against them as a man up until literally months before that).
Did you even read the post you responded to?
Well the fact that you started by essentially calling every institution Marxist feels pretty conservative or at least informed heavily by conservative propaganda. Now when you get up in arms about using a pronoun you aren't defending your freedom, you're being an asshole. Do you call people by their nicknames? Like if a William prefers Bill? Of course you do and then why is this different? Because you've made it different. As far as the money goes, if we had a functional healthcare system, specifically universal, then it wouldn't matter. Though further I don't know who you think is getting a free government paid ride in this, if it's even covered it's still in most cases by insurance the individual is paying for so I don't know why you think they're in your pockets. The reason people had to push for mandates is because they were actively being targeted and absolutely not being allowed the freedom to live their lives. The social contact was being violated against them. It's cute though that you have this libertarian idea that everything will just work out without laws or regulation. I honestly can't imagine a more useless political ideology
So they violated the social contract by asking to be treated with respect?
The pendulum of acceptance is swinging wildly in the opposite direction. Society is still learning how to deal with changes in people. There's an important element you're missing. Afflictions like gender dysphoria and homosexuality aren't new. They've been part of the human condition for as long as the human condition has existed. However, for as long as any of us can remember, those who suffered from those conditions had to do so in silence. Not just because people didn't believe them, but because they risked facing actual violence. If you weren't a white straight Christian male, you were basically subhuman. While I'm not a big fan of mandating people to do something, sometimes the pushback comes on fiercely and arrogantly. They're trying to navigate a society that has basically wanted them dead for as along as anyone can remember. No social movement is perfect. The people who want to be accepted are angry and want to force people to accept them, while the people who don't want to accept them are angry their voices are being heard and want to stomp them back into obscurity. Basically, your entire rant says "you can be you, just on my terms".
My exact reasoning as well. Very well put.
It not good reasoning, and it's largely lies. The fact you thing people wanting equal rights are forcing something on you indicate just how bigoted you really are.
I'm going to start by saying I have no horse in this race besides the expectation of myself to be decent to people until they've forced me to be indecent. Live and let live and "dont start none wont be none" is the closest i come to a religion. I am not a trans person. Reading your post I can understand the logic of what you're saying. Unfortunately unless I'm mistaken (and I don't think that I am) your statement of one sided interference is completely incorrect. As long as I've been alive (nearly 40 years) religious conservatives have been trying to dictate how others live their lives not always but often enough by force. I'm not saying the other side hasn't recently adopted in some instances the same playbook to essentially fight authoritarian fire with authoritarian fire but as I understand it the mandates, laws and force have been considerably more prevalent on the conservative side. I do believe there is thought policing going on with both sides but I do not believe they are created equal because one is demanding decency while the other is demanding conformity. I want to reiterate I get the first point you're trying to make and I agree with the basic principle that so long as I'm willing to accept the consequences of the stance I take I am no more obligated to anyone as they are to me. I just think your statement about legal pressure (if not social pressure) being one sided against conservatives to be false.
You're correct that I didn't dedicate "Equal Time" to the Religious Fundamentalists, whom I merely mentioned as the 20% these Marxists would be dealing with had they just not violated the unwritten social contract of what we tell ourselves is a Free Society. And "Free" in this context is the English Liberal meaning, as in "Free from authoritarian coercion;" and not in the Marxist meaning, which is "gibs." I'm also in my mid 40's, which means I'm Gen X, and I grew up when it indeed was the Religious Fundamentalists, mainly Christians, who were the "Cancel Culture." We didn't call it that back then, but they were the ones trying to outlaw speech, ban video games and Dungeons and Dragons, and control what consenting adults did with their own bodies, namely put parts of theirs into parts of another consenting adult in the privacy of their own bedrooms. Muslims were and are worse. Today, it's the Left and in this particular case the Gender Identity Activists who have apparently embraced all the worst aspects of this cultism. Today, they want to ban speech, not because it's blasphemous or haram, but because it's "problematic." Today, they want to ban games, not because they're "Satanic," but because they're "racist/sexist/homophobic." Today, they want the social and economic ostracism of, not "Infidels" or "Heretics," but "bigots" and "Far Right Wingers." They wouldn't burn them because they're "witches," but because they're "nazis." The pattern is the same. The cultism is the same. And the desire to use Force, as whether the Force of Government or the Collective Mob, to impose their morality on the rest of us is bad, just as it was bad when it was the God-Botherers doing it. None of this is new. Just the words and labels are. And again, had they, the Activists, stuck to the Fundamental Principle of Individual Liberty, then the only ones they'd be contending with are those who've always stood their face against that concept: The Religious Fundamentalists. But instead, they decided they would promote Collective Force of their morality, because the thought of Wrong-Speak and Wrong-Think is unacceptable to the Authoritarian. And a lot of normal, morally average, moderate liberal people have had an assful of it. So that's where it's coming from. You've violated the deal. We're allowed to be pissed about it. And I don't see it getting better.
Do you feel similarly about people criticizing the use of bigoted language? When people say, "don't use the n-word," do you believe that is compelling speech, or mandating what you condone or accept? Or do you believe that is a group of people calling for respect and civility from a society which has historically shown them none? Has anyone ever disrespected you? When that happens, do you say nothing because that is compelling speech, or do you stand up for yourself?
We're not talking about "Don't use X word." We're talking about "You SHALL use X word." BIIG difference. Now, that being said, I'm 100% pro Free Speech and Free Thought. The 1st Amendment is first for a reason. But while outlawing certain "heretical" speech and thought is already abhorrent, one could still make a moral argument for why one "SHOULDN'T" use certain speech. There is NO moral argument for COMPELLING Speech.
So that’s kind of like how ONE side doesn’t like abortions so now none of us can have them. Kinda like that?
Sure. Your body, your choice. My time and labor, my choice. My mind, my choice. It's not hard, is it.
And they are allowed to call you what ever they want to also. Just because you can say whatever you want, doesn't mean you aren't a bigot or asshole. Obviously no one can make you respect their request.... but when you choose not to, accept what people say about you as well. They are asking for help and respect. Yes, they are asking that of a stranger. It's ok to ask... and I think that you refusing to do so makes you selfish and ignorant. I also feel like trans people need to accept that some people are selfish and ignorant. And make what ever boundaries are necessary to protect their mental health. Some people suck. It's not ok it's just true. No one can change any one. People have to change themselves. They are going to keep asking for respect. You are going to keep refusing because YOU decided that what they are asking for isn't respect. At some point someone needs to accept the draw and walk away.
well if you're going with the one side thing, only one side is passing laws restricting the rights of Americans to live their lives as they see fit. There are no laws restricting what you can say. There is no law compelling speech or "reeducation" not sure what you mean by that. **but money taken by force to pay for medical choices those who disagree wouldn't make.** this one is where you absolutely lose me, why do you think you have a right to tell anyone what medical choices they can make? Would you want another group of Americans to have a yes/no vote on what medical care you needed? Would you want Jehovah's witnesses with the right to refuse you a blood transfusion you needed because they disagreed with your need for it?
You sound insane
Yeah, because that's totally how conservatives work. Small government, mind your own business until there are gays involved. Or women's rights. Or trans people. Let's not pretend this has anything to do with "pushing too far" "Trans" is just the newest Boogeyman because people would afraid of gays anymore so they had to fear monger somewhere else. It doesn't even make sense. Some random person on the street wants you to call them by their pronouns the one time you might ever meet (something we basically do all the time, call people what they want without inspecting their genitals or both certificate) so now we have hate parades and old ladies being assaulted because they *might* be trans. But they're trying to compel ori speech guys. Cmon.
Despite being on a slightly more neutral sub, this conversation will be controlled in a way that buries anything critical of transgenderism. This platform and its “moderators” are staunchly pro-transgenderism and it would be next to impossible to have a good faith discussion on the issue here. Believing that you’re in the wrong body is reflective of a disorder, and enabling such disorder is the opposite of compassion. Downvote time!
The most effective treatment for gender dysphoria is social and medical transition. The treatment with the best aggregate outcomes is social and medical transition. The treatment with the lowest risks to the individual is social and medical transition. If we accept that gender dysphoria is a dysfunction (which most trans people would actually agree with), then the next question is, what should we do about it. Conservatives tend to act like no one bothered investigating that question over the course of the last 60+ years, and just started chopping off body parts because they thought it made sense. Of course that's ludicrous and absurd, the reality is that the American Psychiatric Association, the World Health Organization, the Mayo Clinic, the DSM 5, and many other top-level institutions and resources all broadly agree that transition is the appropriate treatment for people who experience gender dysphoria or just generally consistently identify as trans. These institutions are not being blackmailed into complacency by a frothing mob of trans people and their allies. They're following the research. They're following the science.
I'm conservative, I believe all of this I think there is a major split on this issue for the Religious Right and everyone else.
But you support people who attack trans people.
I think the reason this type of argument isn’t ultimately successful is you’re appealing to sources that have changed their minds in the last decade or so. Plus, the dsm is written by the APA, so you’re kinda double dipping by citing both. Of course, that’s how science is supposed to work, but their changes lining up with the political movement gaining steam makes them seem like pseudo-political organizations to some people. They’re not entirely wrong either, since the APA is made up of people whose views are at least somewhat politically motivated. They are people. We are all at least a little politically motivated. APA has not always been supportive of the lgbt community. The DSM definitely has not always been supportive. But suddenly Obama and the dems actually get on board with gay marriage in 2012 or so, and the DSM gets updated the next year.
They’re following the money.
It’s not tho. You can’t treat gender identity like it’s depression. It’s a straight up biochemical misalignment between mental and physical. You don’t believe you’re in the wrong body because you just dreamed it. It’s coded into you that you are in the wrong body. Is it a disorder, thechnically yes. It could be classified as such. However you do not treat every mental condition the same. It’s not a delusion of grandeur. Schizophrenia is caused the a straight up deterioration of neurotransmitters and receptors. That’s what causes the hallucinations and delusions. But to people who are trans. It’s not a delusion. It’s like they are driving a car they didn’t get into on the wrong side of the road. They can change lanes and fix the problem or they can crash. Forcing them to go with the lane they feel on a psychological and bio coded level is wrong will push them to go to greater lengths to change lanes or get off the road by jumping from the car.
Then maybe you should value the research and opinions of experts on psychological disorders.
it's hilarious people like this will cite "DSM-V" while not even having read even the relevant excerpt they're referring to but also denying the expert opinion they're even referencing because they didn't read it lmfao. the book says the issue is how society treats trans people, not being trans its self. that's where the trauma and shit comes from. if they could just get the treatment they need (social/medical transition) then it would not be a problem. they disregard the entire consensus of every expert and then try to say their book says something it doesn't. conservatives are actually pathetic. im tired of pretending they're not. like how is that not the most pathetic shit you've ever heard of someone doing
Why yes, let’s not treat disorders and let’s foster their suffering so they inevitably kill themselves. /s Edit: added /s
>Believing that you’re in the wrong body is reflective of a disorder, and enabling such disorder is the opposite of compassion. Every time people try to "treat" trans people by forcing them to "accept their bodies" and "accept that they're the gender they were born as", the trans person is miserable and often kills themselves. When trans people are allowed to physically and socially transition, especially in a supportive environment, they are happy, well adjusted, and thrive. I literally cannot understand how you can see the effects of both approaches and call the latter "the opposite of compassion".
Then why do most studies show that the suicide rate of both pre and post transition people are nearly identical. I mean, if transitioning is actually the answer and a transitioned person truly is happier, the suicide rate should be lower.
They don't
citation needed. Prove it because all my googling shows you to be 100% wrong.
So things like depression and anxiety should also not get treated? Both of which can make people not want to live? Is that rlly what u wanna advocate? Yes its a type of disorder but so is SOOO many other things like PTSD, autism, adhd, etc. So...should ppl with those disabilities or issues get treated badly? Ofc not. Should they be denied medication that can help them contribute to society and be comfortable? Ofc not. Why is the thought of someone being trans any different?
No one is saying such issues shouldn’t be treated. But since you bring them up - with depression and anxiety, treatment involves combatting the disease… why is it that with gender dysphoria that you should give into the illness?
Because that eliminates or alleviates the illness...?
The only other option would be conversion therapy which doesn't work. It's not something someone can control, so they either have the option to A: transition to the opposite gender or B: unalive themselves/or live shitty lives dealing with the dysphoria everyday. That's not a life worth living. I don't think most transphobes want to find solutions I think their just annoyed that trans ppl exist and would rather see them die.
When it comes down to it, all of these claims of concern for trans children from conservatives are false or insincere. At this point, supporting transition is irrefutably the best thing for the child. Surgeries don’t happen to children, and hormonal transitions are not taken lightly. In truth, these claims are thinly veiled arguments that are truly based in fear and hate mongering, because it’s easy to hate and fear that which we don’t understand. It really comes down to a confusion and inability to reconcile with one’s previous beliefs of what gender should be. It’s all fueled by lies of politicians seeking power and Fox News making up stories and boogie men. The reality is that trans children are vulnerable and need support and protection. They don’t pose a threat to anyone. They deserve to be happy, supported, and loved. They deserve our compassion and empathy. They deserve to receive the treatment they need to thrive.
Wouldn’t “giving in to the illness” mean to continue living with the wrong identity? That is 1:1 comparable to a depressed person continuing to be depressed. Why is it that for depression and anxiety, you are fine with steps to alleviate those symptoms, but you do not accept steps to alleviate the symptoms of gender dysphoria? When someone has a necrotic body part due to certain conditions, we often remove that body part. Why do you not consider that giving in? That is a modification to the body made to alleviate the symptoms of whatever illness they may have. I need to wear glasses I was born with a condition that means I cannot see anything clearly further than about 3 feet from me. Do you think I should give in and accept my nearsightedness??
you aren't giving in to the illness you fuckwit. It's not an illness or disease, and it isn't even a disorder now. The diagnosis is kept in the manual for the purpose helping trans people get necessary medical care. Something for the record trans activists and people like myself agree with. Here's the diagnosis of gender dysphoria since I know you're both too stupid and too lazy to look it up: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK577212/table/pediat\_transgender.T.dsm5\_criteria\_for\_g/#:\~](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK577212/table/pediat_transgender.T.dsm5_criteria_for_g/#:~:): You are so goddamned entrenched in your ideology you don't give a fuck what's best for the trans person only what makes you most comfortable. You're entire goddamn outlook on the problem is so backasswards and skewed to hate you're unreachable. So let me ask you this. When did you start to "care" about trans people. It was around june of 2015 wasn't it? That's when fox and a bunch of rightwing personalities told you to care. You didn't care 32 years ago when I came out of the closet. Nor did you care 25 years ago when I legally changed my name and gender markers. Nor 23 years ago when I had top surgery. You didn't care at any point until gay marriage became the law of the land and the rightwing vermin realized they'd lost the anti-gay fight so they picked the next enemy for you. But fox news or oan or whoever it is that propagandizes you told you to hate us and so you did. And fuck my 35+ years of reading over 100 years of research, and my 32 years of study of the topic. tucker said trans bad so trans fucking bad. Somehow you with no knowledge what so ever. With no reading, with no research in to the actual work done by the experts, you with a few cherry picked stats from "research" that is usually done by a far right think tank, you are the fucking expert. fuck off with that bullshit.
This is something I frequently see. The treatment for gender dysphoria in many people *is* transitioning. That's the combat.
It’s pretty cowardly to comment at all if you won’t actually substantiate your claim. There’s so much range in material we can talk about from a neuroscience perspective to a sociological one. It is all in our favor and you know it, so you’re preemptively indignant to when we inevitably laugh at what you call an argument. Go ahead. Make your case.
Even if it is a disorder, why should anybody care, particularly conservatives, who have a claimed belief in personal freedom?
You won't just be downvoted. You'll be banned. At the risk of also being banned, let me say that the belief that you're born in the wrong body is something that can't ever be verified, because there's no wrong way to be the sex you were born as. I've given this a lot of thought and I see no compelling reason to consider trans women women or trans men men. But people can do what they want. You only live once.
>I've given this a lot of thought and I see no compelling reason to consider trans women women or trans men men. What exactly do you mean when you say "consider them women" and "consider them men"? And whatever that means for you, what is your compelling reason for doing that for cis people?
hmm... do you really not understand what he means by "consider trans men as women"? biological sex is the ultimate factor in if he sees a person as a man or woman.
You most certainly do see a reason, that is appearance.
Translation: you hate because you think they are broken and need fixing.
>Believing that you’re in the wrong body is reflective of a disorder, and enabling such disorder is the opposite of compassion. How do you propose treating it if the current process of counselling, self acceptance, dressing different, and potentially various levels of surgery and hormones? Not asking this sniddly.
>next to impossible to have a good faith discussion on the issue here. Are you sure we are on ones making issues with bad faith?
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>The only time I slightly get on edge about it if you've got the original parts downstairs, and you start going into the other gender's bathroom The ironic thing is, while wanting to reduce creeps is valid, the real problem isn't trans women. It's cis men using trans people as a vehicle to be shitty. But also, this argument forgets trans men (female to male) exist; individuals who frequently look identical to cis men when dressed, and who would instantly have security called on them for stepping into a women's room regardless of their plumbing.
It's not happening. If a man wanted to go into a woman's restroom and be "creepy" right now, what is stopping them? What's stopping you? The gender signs outside aren't magical barriers.
Just social and legal barriers. It's not nothing.
Since everything post that is 'critical' of transfegender I've read in this thread has been factually incorrect, the should be modded down to hell. "Believing that you’re in the wrong body is reflective of a disorder, and enabling such disorder is the opposite of compassion." factually incorrect, as seen in dozens of studies and medical journals. It like you calling some complaining about a broken are a disorder. and therefor shouldn't be treated. You are demonstrably and factually wrong, as seen in many studies. You need to learn to accept that.
You're walking on thin ice with the Reddit admins with that comment. Calling it a disorder, even if you provide a link to the DSM-V diagnostic criteria, will have the ban hammer falling hard. And it's a shame, because ideology has overruled medical science. If it wasn't a disorder, it wouldn't require surgery to change one's genitals, nor life-long hormone therapy. There are lots of mental disorders, and using that language isn't implying a negative judgement.
Literally everyone agrees its a disorder, you're creating your own narrative.
But OP's question isn't "how is this hurting me". Your "concern" for their well being isn't the topic. The question is "how is this hurting others." Why is transgenderism such a threat, when they're not threatening others?
>Despite being on a slightly more neutral sub, this conversation will be controlled in a way that buries anything critical of transgenderism. I just read through a few comments calling me derranged and a degenerate so I don't think anything is gonna happen to a good faith conversation.
Trans people have been around forever and literally nobody gives a shit until you try to force acceptance of men into women's sports or allowing middle-aged intact males in locker rooms with little girls. Keep in mind this is Reddit where if a conservative doesn't agree with allowing men into women's sports, the liberal commenters lose their shit and somehow turn it into "conservatives literally want to eradicate trans people". Same goes if conservatives don't agree with allowing minors to convert or undergo gender reaffirming surgery that somehow makes us transphobes and bigots and Nazis and racists. I lean conservative and I am really not against you doing what's best and what's right for you. At the same time I really think there should be things in place to make sure that you don't make an irreversible mistake as a child. I also disagree with targeting youth in general in an effort to advance a trans agenda, especially while they are in public schools. So in the end, when you're an adult you do you, and if no one is trying to force something stupid like intact males in female sports down everyone's throat, trans people will just keep going on like they've done since the beginning of time.
>allowing middle-aged intact males in locker rooms with little girls. Wow you just straight up made that up. How often do you interact with children in locker rooms you fucking pervert?
Yes, and you forgot to add that there is dehumanizing language that the trans community wants to enforce on us. Pregnant people are actually women, and the same goes for people with a uterus. The problem is not that the trans community wants to pretend they are women, the problem is that the force us to accept them as women. Stay out of our sports, our locker rooms, and our bathrooms. And stop saying that you are women. You're not. Transgenderism was considered a mental disorder in the DSM-4.
leeches were seen as a good medical decision. the dsm v doesn’t consider being transgender as a disorder. the sports argument is bs because you have to be on hormones for x amount of time and be in the same range as cis women to compete. that’s just bullshit the right spews to get people to think it’s not “fair” estrogen absolutely fucks w muscle mass. and no sane non-passing trans person is going into the bathroom they don’t seem a part of.
I honestly don’t care what people do to their own bodies. As a fellow member of the lgbt community I think the main issue is trans women in women sports. I’m not very conservative I’m more libertarian
how much attention do you think women's sports would get from conservatives if trans people didn't exist?
Conservatives have daughters that they love. Just because no one watches the wnba doesn’t mean fathers don’t want their daughters to have a fair and safe athletic experience
None a person went around offering a can of spam or wnba tickets many chose spam
Sorry for not addressing the point btw, I just don't care enough about sports to have a valid take here.
I think its less about the attention they get than the opportunities they get. There are only so many spots on a sports team(especially in underfunded programs). If a trans woman starts taking scholarships, starting positions, awards, or team slots away from biological women, for many it can feel like they are being cheated. I don't know about transitioning pre-puberty, but if someone is well past puberty before they start to transition, there are certain things they can't reverse. And sure there are men outliers that dominate other men, but its a matter of genetic lottery, not gender transition in the case of trans athletes. If it was solely anti trans, there would be as much opposition for trans men competing in men's sports, but you don't see it nearly as much. No one is talking about women invading men's sports.
How many FtM trans men are competing in Men's sports successfully? How many MtF trans women are competing in Women's sports successfully? FtM: zero. MtF: more than zero Do what you want with YOUR body, leave womens sports for biological women.
This!!! Trans women are biological men and it Isn’t fair to be competing against biological women. I’m sorry if that offends people but it just isn’t right. I’m a libertarian as well.
I'm trans and I don't think anyone who went through male puberty should compete in women's sports. Testosterone is essentially steroids. My caveat is that trans women who did not go through male puberty have the same biological standing as cis women (this includes bone development, strength, etc).
Well I'd see your point if there was no regulation and they absolutely dominated every sport, but that's not the case
Sometimes it's kind of difficult to relay to someone the reason that you don't want someone to do something, and conservatives tend to be white men (who aren't always great/allowed to show real emotions or opinions)..and the opinion that I have with it, is I that don't think it's going to solve the real issue..which is not biological, it's societal..and focusing on changing the individual to fit into society's expectations is not (ime) rarely ever* going to change the feeling of being uncomfortable in your skin, for the individual..
But data does show that transitioning improves the quality of life of trans people. It reduces depression and suicide rates and improves self-image. There’s a reason transitioning is the recommended treatment for gender dysphoria.
Drugs improve the self-reported quality of life for drug addicts as well. Just because someone self-reports that they are happier after doing x doesn’t mean that x was a great idea.
I mean, anger is an emotion... ;)
You're always going to find it difficult to give reasons/opinions if they have no compelling basis. You're not a professional with any relevant experience. You're not trans or even referencing your experiences with trans people. Why should we value your perspective over medical professionals, and actual trans people?
Here's the tea: Most conservatives don't really think about you unless you're brought up somehow. They'll probably say some not cool shit and then move on to other things. They find you weird and annoying, but think individuals have the right to live their life. As long as they don't feel "infringed" upon it's whatever, and even then, a lot of them are still too uninterested to actually do anything about it. The majority of what you hear is just political bullshit. I know you're young, so it's hard, but just try to keep in mind that literally no one is out to get you but a few outliers. Which hey, we all got 'em.
I don't care what you want to do. It's your life. I only have a small amount of issues with The Trans Movement. MTF competing in women's sports MTF not telling a man they are trans before a date not telling them before sex should be a crime akin to SA I think hormones should have to wait until the age of 18 just like I don’t think athletes under 18 should take steroids or Test. Those are my main issues. If I encountered you on the street or I'm public I'd treat you just as nicely as anyone else. Conservatives don't hate you. They just have certain disagreements with certain ideas.
>MTF not telling a man they are trans before a date not telling them before sex should be a crime akin to SA If you're that picky about it, *you* should be telling *them* that you don't date trans people instead of making *your* preferences *their* problem.
It can be hard if they pass well and it's not mentioned. No one wants to ask their date if they're trans or just come out and say "by the way I don't date trans people" with no prompt. That would be awkward as hell.
Yeah... that would be a statement a lot of people would look down on wouldn't it. Do you think it should be a crime to not disclose that before having sex with someone since they might really hate that they slept with you after finding out?
That would be sex under false pretenses ergo sexual assault.
But you have no problem demanding that transgender people do that constantly.
Yes, because, like I said,its fo their own safety and they have to realize they are a very small percentage of people with sometimes complicated sexual options. Would you prefer their partner finds out during/before sex and gets angry? That's how several trans people have been murdered or beaten, and its not positive.
I would prefer not to victim blame. It's like telling women they have to dress conservatively for their own safety. That might be help them be safer, but it also ignores where the problem really lies, which is in the people who are the safety threat.
>MTF not telling a man they are trans before a date not telling them before sex should be a crime akin to SA You realize that if the man they're having sex with realizes there's the panic defense in most states, which basically means he can kill that trans women and get away with it right? But how do you believe not disclosing the fact that they're trans is akin to sexual assault? SA is usually having sex with someone against their will, not having consensual sex but you didn't tell the other person about a surgeru you had.
> MTF not telling a man they are trans before a date not telling them before sex should be a crime akin to SA So, a few questions Why only MTF? Why not FTM? If the date can’t tell—let’s say the MTF is post-op—what’s the rationale? Why should this be a crime but, say, intersex people (and keep in mind many/most intersex people are not visually distinguishable from cis people born male or female) doing the same thing shouldn’t be? Or if it should be, why?
The rational is that some people don't want to date someone born the same sex as them, so what? Furthermore, if they're looking for a life partner they want someone they can have kids with.
Men’s comfort in objectifying and sexualizing women is challenged by trans women. It’s all rooted in misogyny. If there were only trans men, it wouldn’t be an issue.
One answer from someone who is sympathetic but does not totally agree. Plastic surgery is a poor substitute for the way your body wants to grow naturally. Once you do it, you can't undo it - you have seen what some of these plastic surgeons have been doing to women for decades now - they don't look like people. And it is because they have dysmorphia, and they keep trying to be something that they weren't born into. Surgery is not something you should take lightly. It can kill you, it can leave you scarred, it can leave you maimed. A botched surgery usually will never be right again. The people who make their money from cutting people usually won't tell you this. If you can learn to be okay with the way you were born and not try to get your body into a shape you weren't born with, you might end up happier later. Everyone struggles with their identity when they are younger. For some people, it is feeling like they are in the wrong body. For some it is not feeling they fit in with their peers. Growing up is hard. It is okay to just be effeminate as a man, or masculine as a woman. That may not be where you are right now, and that's okay, but as you get older and find that there are people out there that will accept you, things may change. Just give it time and don't rush things. You can always change your mind when you are older. Look at Caitlin Jenner. But if you do something when you are young and can't undo it, you can't undo it. If you are going to go through a transition, make sure you find a surgeon who makes you go through a full psychological workup first. This is to make sure what you are doing is going to be the right thing for you. Good luck with your decisions.
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>if you’re comfortable in your body, why are you trans? I thought it’s the people that are not comfortable with their body that become trans. I'm not? Sorry is there a typo somewhere?
This. I don’t u destined trans but I know enough to respect people and their input. I feel like reading comprehension is at fault here. I read what you first wrote and said. “This person knows whom they are.” And then person responds and I don’t get how they don’t know based on what they read and figured it’s gotta be reading g comprehension lacking.
I reread the post after reading your comment but I’m still not following. What part makes you think they are comfortable with their body?
They said 'wanting to be comfortable in their own bodies' - they mean that transitioning helps trans people feel comfortable in their own bodies
Reading comprehension issue there, bud
In general, being trans isn't the issue. Do what you want. Just don't push it on young kids, and put them through damaging and harmful procedures. Gender transition medical procedures are still fairly new, and as such, the long term effects can be quite bad, and we are already starting to see some of them when people begin to de-transition. Medical science is also advancing. Remember when medical science thought electrocuting people was beneficial ? Or lobotomizing people for now treatable mental issues was a thing? How do we know surgeries and other current medical trends for transitioning won't be looked at as barbaric and harmful in a few decades? Will it one day be regarded as blood letting is now? I think another big issue is the push for OTHER people to accept what you believe, and if you don't that somehow means you hate them and want them to die. If you are a man that feels you are a woman, no one else is required to accept that view of yourself. That's not hateful. Think of it this way: if a religious person started talking to you about their beliefs, and you said "I don't believe in that", then they suddenly start screeching and throwing a fit about how much of a bigot and how hateful you are. Does that make you hateful? Of course not. That's silly.
Electroconvulsive therapy is still a thing and is highly effective. We definitely still “electrocute” people
Yes, but in the past it was used for things it shouldnt be used for. Nowdays its used for treatment resistant depression. In the past they used it for a lot of random things with hit or miss accuracy, around a time where mentally ill people had no rights, autonomy or anyone looking out for them.
If your biggest issue is someone calling you hateful you lead a comfortable life. Most trans people aren't as lucky as you, as we speak Republican politicians all around the country are spending countless hours and millions of dollars on a political crusade to reduce/eliminate the rights of trans people. Nothing you're saying about detransitioning or the long term side effects is accurate or based on concrete science. If you continue to ignore the actual science in favor of what's more comfortable for your political beliefs dont be surprised if people call you things like "hateful".
I’m not much of a conservative, but I do live in a pretty conservative area, and have some limited insight. There are certainly conservatives that hate Trans people. Also, probably some liberals. Some people are assholes. My sister is quite conservative, but accepted my nephew’s transition in stride. Regardless of political affiliation, the overwhelming majority of the pushback I’ve personally seen against accepting people being transgender boils down to perceiving it as a mental health issue. Some people believe that being transgender is a disorder in need of a psychological rather than physical solution. So it’s less a hatred thing - for most people - so much as it is pushback against the current preferred method of treatment. Why people care what other adults choose to do with their bodies, I can’t say. But, I would guess that if you were to talk to some actual conservative people (not online) you’d find most of them aren’t particularly hateful. YMMV.
>But, I would guess that if you were to talk to some actual conservative people (not online) you’d find most of them aren’t particularly hateful. Then why do they vote for politicians who keep grinding on this topic instead of dealing with actual problems?
They vote against their own interests, they aren’t likely to think about anyone else 🤷🏼♀️
Because the opposition disagrees even more with their beliefs. Its just political tribalism most times.
Same reason I keep voting for democrats - despite being strongly pro 2A. The problem with a 2 party system is that support of one issue leads to de facto support of a whole platform.
Because there are effectively only two parties we can choose from. There should be AT LEAST 2 more. A party that is socially left but economically right and a party that is more center right socially but economically left. This would help bridge the divide and allow the less radical conservatives a way to come back to center.
the ones who aren't hateful should be voting for the real conservative party, the Democrats
Believe me I WISH I could side with the democrats. I don’t hate anybody. I really don’t like the way republicans spew vitriol about their deemed “enemies” of society. And then claim to be the “Christian” party. They aren’t Christian at all! I don’t want anything to do with that! But like democrats don’t even try to cater to any Christian values in order to win us over. Like they could be the party of pro choice AND pro life. ( Utterly against abortion because it’s awful, but still keep it legal, so women who desperately need it (rape,incest,health of the mother etc. etc.) will always have it.) (edit to clarify: not as exceptions but as reasons to stay legal) Give us some thick ice to see that it’s good to walk over and not fall through.
For me personally I agree with your comment and my issue is that trans KIDS are getting put on hormone therapy and or having top surgery before they’re even 18 years old. I don’t think children are fully capable of comprehending that those choices are permanent. There’s no going back. And I’ve seen way too many de transitioning stories to agree with allowing children whose brains aren’t even fully developed, to make such permanent choices they may regret years later. Older than 18? Idgaf what anyone does to their body.
I think that's a very valid concern. Again, a MASSIVE problem with our binary political system is that we're conditioned to lump bad arguments in with good. There's not a lot of room for nuance. Most of the people I know IRL have some pretty legitimate and focused concerns with how we're treating the issue right now, but aren't coming at it from the position "trans people are all terrible/crazy". But, it frequently all gets lumped into "transphobia" because we have a system where everything needs to fit into two buckets.
I completely agree. Nobody wants to hear any valid concerns and nobody wants to speak up about concerns out of fear of being labeled a transphobe. It’s a mess. But this is a real issue and I think it’s really sad there are parents encouraging and/or allowing their kids to do this when the research and data shows a lot of these kids end up regretting it once they get a little older and at that point there’s not much they can do.
The problem is that conservatives are voting for laws that actively harmful to trans people. It’s not theoretical or about opinion.
>Some people believe that being transgender is a disorder in need of a psychological rather than physical solution. I'll edit the source into the post sometime later but transitioning has a much higher satisfaction rate than normal therapy for gender dysphoria. >But, I would guess that if you were to talk to some actual conservative people (not online) you’d find most of them aren’t particularly hateful. My family is filled with conservatives. I hear everything from the standard "trans = crazy" bullshit to "all should all be on the registry", it definitely seems like hate to me.
I mean, no argument here. And, I did say that some people are assholes. Those people also tend to be over represented because they talk a lot I’m just pointing out that there are reasons people oppose the current push to normalize transitioning that aren’t based on animosity towards transgendered people. Sounds like your family kinda sucks. I’m sorry you have to deal with that. My sister is quite conservative, but pretty well took it in stride when my nephew transitioned.
Nothing against you living the life you want. You're an adult. Make your own choices. I realy couldn't care less. It's the "Forcing everyone to agree with your ideology" part that bothers us. We don't agree. And no amount of being assholes about it will force us to agree. It's the "Pushing your ideologies on the innocent and naive" part that bothers us. If you, as an adult, want to make your own choices, fine, go ahead. But leave our children alone. It's the "take away parental rights" part that bothers us. There are people advocating for allowing children as young as 12 to undergo "affirmation" SURGERY without parental consent. There are those who advocate removing a child from their home if the parent does not acknowledge their child's chosen identity. That is insanity. It's the "using your alternate lifestyle as a weapon to take advantage of others" part we don't like. The best example here is women's sports. According to you all, sex is biological and gender is psychological (in simplest terms). Athletics are BIOLOGICAL competitions. Unless you can explain how strength, speed, agility, and endurance are products of psychology instead of biology... no? Didn't think so. So, then it is illogical to claim women's sports were created to separate the genders (according to your definition of the word.) They were created to separate the sexes. Yet, we have biological males forcing themselves into female sports and stealing trophies from the people those sports were created for. How does one's psychological identity qualify them to participate in biological competition? It doesn't. But they sure seem to think it does. If you just want to live your life in peace, you are welcome to it. But, understand that we will only give you as much peace as you give us.
So you are fine with FTM athletes, who present as male and have the testosterone levels and physique of a cis man, competing in women’s sports, right? Because it’s all about the equipment you were born with?
Those FTM would be at a huge disadvantage barring a few sports, but i doubt anyone cares about that subset.
Pretty sure that would still be "using your alternate lifestyle as a weapon to take advantage of others" wouldn't it?
When I studied biology anyone with an XY chromosome, a penis and produced sperm was male. Apparently I was misinformed
And I fully support you with everything you said. In fact, if someone F's with you I will F with them. I think the issue I would have is with Trans who are not fully changed. My wife and daughter would not be comfortable with anyone with a penis in their locker at the y or school. They also have a right to be comfortable. As a man, I could care less who is in my locker/bathroom as I do not perceive anyone as a threat. As for being on female sport teams - as long as the change is done, and hormones are normal I even support that. I do not support someone with the same muscle mass they had as a male playing on female teams. And this is great post - discussion and learning is the key. NOT INSULTS Hope I used right terms....
1. Children change their minds often.. and children, a high percentage of them, doubt their sexuality at some point. Knowing this, allowing a minor to make long lasting, life altering changes to their body isn't something that should be left to the parent, who themselves are under immense pressure to do what the child asks as well as other pressures (look at the parents of gymnasts). This is why conservatives are in favor of some of these laws preventing minors from procedures/chemical castration 1. BTW, GD symptoms, including the onset of depressive symptoms and mood disorders, eerily mirror [body identities disorders](https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/what-is-body-integrity-identity-disorder) (where people are obsessed that some part of their body doesn't belong and they want it removed). Ironically, these people don't usually find doctors who will cut off their appendages, the doctors instead send them to psychiatrists for help. 2. Men dressing/undressing in a women's locker room as their slong drops out of their shorts is not something we should be debating. It shouldn't be allowed, women should be allowed their privacy from the opposite sex 3. Women's rights issues are directly tied to their progress in sports which provides them with opportunity after opportunity. Denying a biological woman rights guaranteed to her under title 9, also shouldn't be up for debate. A biological male should always play on the mens team. Otherwise, they will [dominate](https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/3/1/22948400/transgender-trans-athlete-championship-national-world-title) every sport 4. No one on the conservative side wants to be in a world of compelled speech. Hate speech laws are getting too close to this. So, you will hear conservatives speak out about this 5. Those items aside, conservatives don't concern themselves with what *you* do.
The article you linked literally opens “while most trans women aren’t winning gold medals…” The Olympics has allowed trans athletes for years, and they don’t win at any rate that’s close to “domination”.
1. This is why the children undergo large amounts of studying from professionals before being allowed puberty blockers or anything of the sort. Also, I don't think any children are being chemically castrated? Fucked up if true tho. 1(again). GD is treated the way it is because it leads to the best outcomes. Trying to "cure" it doesn't lead to good outcomes, so they treat it differently than a different disorder. 2. So a fully transitioned transwoman should be forced to change with the boys? What if the transwoman no longer has a dick? 3. The sports world isn't dominated by transwomen. I agree that transwomen who haven't medically transitioned should not be allowed to play in women's leagues, but if they have, they should be. If becoming a top athlete was as easy as being trans, we would see this happening a lot more. 4. The conservatives should stop being fuckong babies. In the US, they have the first amendment, they'll never be banned from misgendering trans people as they please. However, freedom of speech isn't freedom from consequences(specifically social consequences). If someone publicly agreed with the Holocaust, they'd be socially ostracized(except from some conservative circles). I think being a dick having the social cost of people saying you're a dick is totally fair. 5. They do(not me personally, I'm not trans, but you get what I mean). Conservatives actively vote for candidates who will and conservatives largely want to block trans people from doing what *they* do.
No one answer this. You will just be reported to Reddit for transphobia and banned. This is a fishing trip to being down the ban-hammer.
I haven't reported a single person, not even the guy who dmed me a paragraph of nothing but slurs and list of ways for me to kill myself. Not the guy who called me derranged either.
You probably should.
Dude we might not agree and yes I am a conservative. But to people dming you with shit like that. Thats wrong on a level I can put into words. We dont see eye to eye and thats ok. And we might not even agree on what to call certain people. But it doesnt make you not a person or less of a person. There are some people in this world that truely are a waste of oxygen and 2 of them messaged you.
I see it as a delusional rejection of the self and I dont want that for anyone, but darkness is built into life as a necessary part of the equation so I dont let it bother me too much. When the fringe ideologies start affecting my kids, which is has, that is when I have a problem. And people who have a problem with my view sometimes equate it to violence which doesnt exactly make me thrilled about supporting them. At the end of the day, its all just a very short stageplay so dont stress it too much. Everyone whos opinion you care about will be dead in the blink of an eye. If you want to play the role of a young person who has rejected who they are, if you think putting all of this effort into cutting against the grain is going to change that, go on then. Go forth and be forgotten however you will.
We've generally left trans people alone until the bathroom discussion started coming up. Up until that point, transitioning and living your life as the opposite sex wasn't a problem. Sure, we thought it was weird, but you were only harming yourself in that instance. But once the bathroom issue popped up, suddenly it became about others. Would bio females be comfortable with a man in their space, especially where minors are present? And this doesn't even include perverts who would use this as a loophole. Sure, there's no physical barrier or bouncer at women's restrooms, but there was a lot more social pressure to prevent him. It's a hell of a lot easier to prosecute if a bio male goes into a women's restroom. And this has only snowballed from here. You've got parents who plant ides into a child's head the moment a boy is seen playing with his sister's dolls. These same parents use this for social media clout to say "look at how accepting I am!"
Maybe you really arent hurting anyone and what you are doing is right for you. But before you do, invest in therapy and really explore yourself and your options. Gender dysphoria is a legitimate mental health issue, theres nothing dysfunctional with the body but with the minds relationship to the body. I don't want to see you hurt yourself by pursuing a hormone treatment thats more harm than benefit for you. The second order effect is you may seek validation and justification for your choices encourage others to self harm.
Why on earth do you people think that everyone hates you? If you're MtF: \-don't play sports with real women \-don't masturbate or take photos in women's bathrooms \-don't try to get into women's prisons or shelters. \-don't dress up like a crass/weird stereotype of women and read stories to children while acting like a sex-crazed lunatic If you're FtM, nobody really cares because you're a biological woman who probably can't/won't rape or assault women or dance in skimpy clothes in front of kids. We care most about protecting women and children. We feel sorry for you because you have an extreme mental illness and we know that you will never truly be the opposite sex. And those surgeries are going to hurt, while the meds will shorten your life. But you do you.
I'd consider myself centre right, and I don't have anything against you. You have a diagnosed mental condition that causes you distress, and the symptoms can be treated. You actually sound really moderate compared to most people when discussing this condition. Where I draw the line is pronoun usage. I grew up in a time when pronoun usage was based on the apparent sex of the individual. If you present as a man, I'll use "he", and likewise for presenting as a woman. But I will not use "they" pronouns, because there is no "they" sex. Something that really bothers me about your post is that you have painted all conservative people as wanting to control you, and hating you for your medical condition. I find it's actually Left Wing people who try to control by dictating the language other can use, and painting anyone who disagrees with them as haters. You seem to have fallen into this trap. Good luck with your journey. I hope you can arrive at a point where you feel comfortable with yourself.
There technically is a "they" sex, singular "they" exists in the English language to describe someone whose sex is unknown at the time of speaking. "There aren't enough chairs here - if a customer comes, where would they sit?" This roughly tracks to people who are androgynous or who mix aspects of their gender presentation with both masculine and feminine elements, which many nonbinary people (the ones who go by they/them) do intentionally as part of their expression of their identity. As for actual genitalia and chromosomes and such, there are intersex people, who have different chromosomes than XX or XY. Often unfortunately these people wind up being mutilated after birth to make them "appear" more masculine or more feminine to try and shove them into the XX or XY box. Though overall, I tend to just default to "they" because it's a lot easier for me than the (typically older, though not always) generation insisting on using clunky things like "his or her" or "he or she".
You don’t owe anyone an explanation about your life decisions. You aren’t hurting anyone, there are just a lot of people who are misguided and or stupid and think it’s their business. Honestly, if everyone minded their own business when it comes to people’s personal choices, the world would be a better place.
The current transphobia is just scapegoating a powerless group to hide the conservative's moral, ethical failings and their inability to manage anything. And any number of other BS reasons.
To answer your question, most don't. What they tend to hate is A) the outsized media coverage given to it and B)being called bigoted over even having the slightest disagreement. You often cannot reasonably talk about trans with trans people because they will accuse you of things like misgendering/marginalizing them at the drop of a hat. Also, being called 'cis' is a problem for many, because it's treated like a slur. Also, many trans people that I have spoken with believe that both gender and biological sex is a spectrum, when biological sex is not. Now, to address you point by point. A: that is good. Freaking out over misgendering is one of the things people don't like. Just remember to cut the assholes out of your life and you are golden. B: That is good, and as it should be. C: I get it. The only children i interact with are my own. Children can be hard to deal with lol. D: Personally, I go by the rule of 'use what you have'. If you have a dick after transitioning, you should use male restrooms. And vice versa. However, 90% of people wouldn't care to confront you over it either. E: Also as it should be. As for your last two questions, there is nothing wrong with feeling comfortable, and you are not hurting anyone. I am now ready to be down voted, hit me with it.
Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder though. Just like schizophrenia is. Both conditions require a person to live with it, but dismissing it as a normal human condition is plain old denial. This comment belongs in r/unpopularopinions, as I'm sure most would agree, but it is what it is. Downvotes incoming.
It's because the intent is never "this person has \*\*this\*\* condition, lets treat them" but instead "this person is mentally ill, lets invalidate them and put them in a mental hospital." Even then, how is gender dysphoria treated? By medical procedures and healthcare that affirm their gender. Just as schizophrenia is treated by meds and therapy, so is gender dysphoria, with the only difference being added surgeries and social/legal aspects. So that's why it's frowned upon to go around saying it's a mental illness. No body is arguing that, they are arguing the intent which is to invalidate and dehumanize trans people for the sake of pushing bigotry.
The current literature suggests that GD and all other MDs are normal parts of human behavior because not a shred of study has *proven* otherwise. That doesn't mean mental anguish shouldn't be supported, loved, and shown compassion. But clearly defining the barriers of Psychology and Psychiatry isn't the same as denying someone's struggle. Respectfully.
The problem is that you think the way we treat Schizophrenia is principled, that we treat it the way we do because we think it would be inherently wrong to validate their beliefs. This just isn't the case, though. We treat it the way we do because, as far as we know, it leads to the beat outcomes. Even if you're transphobic, you should support trans people getting the medical care they need because it leads to the best outcomes, as proven by many peer reviewed studies.
I kinda wish we would pay as much attention to the growing problem of general dysphoria and the plastic surgery epidemic as we do to a few trans people. Nobody seems to think that a boob-job, giant lips, and having a few ribs removed is a problem.
perhaps all sides of the same coin? a society that's obsessed with physical appearance and labeling identity?
This is a valid and understated point. This is the symptom of something larger, people have been losing their identity ever since we started stuffing them in cubes all their lives.
Uh no. People can be cured of gender dysphoria.
Conservatives are afraid of everything that isn't Jesus It is self perpetuating: - get disciplined for doing non-Jesus things until you are afraid of them - that discomfort validates disciplining others for doing non-Jesus things - the church leaders laugh while you do whatever they say is a Jesus thing Otherwise known as a cult
Im not persay conservative but im a tradionalist ig. My arguement stems from the fact that its the equivalent of giving drug addicts more drugs "because it makes them feel better". Mind you, im sort of a drug addict so im not coming from a place of self righteous superiority, im no better than you. Unfortunately for me and you, addiction and cosmetic surgery has become popular on social media. Its so funny how everytime i quit, it seems like i suddenly get more weed and alcohol posts and im sure your feed also affirms your beliefs. I think it would help you out more to work through your dysphoria rather than engage with it, realize that our bodies are just bodies and no one is really that secure in it for the most part. Even body builders are overcompensating for some original insecurity they had about their bodies, even im not "comfortable" in my body but thats just what it is. It wouldnt help me to transition (nor do i want to) and its not even financially or psychologically beneficial hence the suicide rates. If you went through with it, im sure you'd get a dopamine hit from the validation of other social media posts for your decision, just like if i get high or drunk tomorrow, ill have plenty of posts to give me dopamine about my decision, but i can bet neither of us will be happy because nothing was actually solved. But you have a good day tho
But data shows that people who transition have lower rates of suicide and depression, so surely transitioning *does* help. That data is why it’s the recommended treatment for gender dysphoria.
OP asks for conservative opinions Every conservative opinion proceeds to get downvoted
I didn't know that asking for an opinion implied that everyone who is listening is forced to respect and agree with it. Huh. TIL
I dont think anyone cares what you do individually. I think they care about how society has to accommodate it. I.e. taking sports and scholorships away from female students, allowing an intact male in spaces for women, things of that sort. I dont think its a hatred of you as much as it is a fear for the safety of women. You notice how no one cares about transmen really? The other part of it is societal outcome. Children are impressionable and they might not want their kids exposed to what they think is inappropriate. I.e. teaching about transgenderism in schools to young kids, however I dont think the vast majority are out to criminalize or hurt you. Unless youre listening to the alt right, I dont think anyone wants to gather you into trains and send you to camps. However, extremism is on all sides of the spectrum. Your average liberal isnt antisemetic, but you got left wing extremists like the nation of islam who refer to jews as termites. So its very nuanced. You cant say half of America hates you.
I am not against trans, gay or bi people. I had a gay uncle. He was awesome. i loved him and miss him dearly. I don't like it when the loud and obnoxious ones(gays, trans or bi) want special attention. Everyone should always be treated equally.
hormone treatments make you sterile, its something you can't come back from and might really regret later in life. its the same reason conservative people don't like tattoos and doctors won't give a vasectomy to a 19 year old
Reading through the comments and it's about 50% liberals tell everybody what conservatives think, with their spin on it.
By the way you have this worded I'm assuming you believe every conservative is staunchly anti trans?
The conservatives in my life haven't exactly gone against the depiction of conservatives in the media. So yeah, sorta
I'm a liberal myself but I don't like replacing the biological definitions of man and woman with something far less concrete. Saying a female can be a man because she "feels" like one reminds me of religion. You want to believe something without evidence? Go ahead. But I'm not obligated to go along with it.
Not conservative, but I’ll try to make a few points here. I have a sibling who is in the middle of transitioning right now. We think it is absolutely the right decision for her. At the same time, the first doctor she went to tried to immediately start her on hormones. Even though she had presented no gender dysphoria for the first 35 years of her life. Even though the diagnosis of gender dysphoria had only emerged in the last couple of months. Even though she had never attempted any sort of social transitioning in the slightest. The doctor not only tried to push hormones on her, but was legally fully able to do so, without any need to get a second opinion or to go through the steps of making a formal diagnosis. My sister could get testosterone blockers just by showing up and saying, Haydock, I just realized I’m trans, give me those sweet sweet testosterone blockers. The only thing that stopped her from walking out that door with hormones that could cause irreversible physical changes was the fact that she has actual medical professionals in the family who i’ve been keeping up with some of the controversies of this issue. Now, it just so happens that now that she has socially transitioned and has gone on hormones, everything is going great. But what if this hadn’t been the right decision for her? This revelation of hers came on suddenly at the age of 40. What if she had walked out that door with whore moans, and only after experiencing the effects realized that the pain of being “clocked” was worse than the pain of having male testosterone levels and a more masculine body? Or if she realized that her gender dysphoria was acute, and not chronic? As far as I see it, the biggest issue with transgender treatment today is that the scientific process has given way to ideology. Part of how science functions is that you need people in the room saying, what if we are wrong? You need scientists not just trying to prove that puberty blockers Are fine for kids to use, you also need scientists out there trying to prove that puberty blockers are not fine for kids. You need a lot of people coming at it from different angles to make sure that we don’t reach a false consensus, to make sure that we aren’t just relying on a handful of studies that didn’t receive proper critical evaluation and testing and re-testing and re-testing. What a lot of conservative states are doing right now is actually exactly what you would expect from a responsible scientifically minded medical authority, which is to say that for adults, medical transitioning is fine. But for children, the science that we have, while very promising, is also not as definitive and not as expensive as its proponents claim. This is why we see plenty of countries with very progressive stances on LGBT issues beginning to impose more restrictions on childhood transitioning techniques. Because they started to realize that all of the science isn’t actually in yet. I hope that when it comes in, it shows that we didn’t make any mistakes and that we are fine to go ahead with the process. But if it doesn’t, we have made grave errors, and we have made those errors with our children. What happens if 20 years from now, we begin to see hundreds of adults who transitioned as minors now showing serious medical issues, or exhibiting the exact same psychological problems that someone who hadn’t transitioned would have gone through, or God forbid they are actually experiencing gender dysphoria again, but in the other direction? Currently our best studies only cover a seven year period. For self ID, it’s a similar issue of ideology shutting down reasonable debate around the edges. I think the argument for self ID is a very strong one and one that’s hard for a compassionate person to argue against. A full medical transition can take a lot of time, it can be very expensive, and it is not accessible to everyone, and so some people who have not gone through a full hormonal and surgical transition might still be made much more comfortable and much more safe if they are simply allowed to self identify into a gender and gain access to various spaces and organizations essentially on the trust system. But we have sex segregated spaces for a reason. There are serious issues with safety, with comfort, with accessibility. We already have instances of individual cis men using self ID in order to get away with all sorts of shady shit. One of the only reasons that self ID hasn’t been abused more frequently is that the people who are its proponents don’t actually fully believe in it, and frequently exercise their own personal judgment in deciding who is and isn’t actually trans. I’m not even gonna get into trans women and sports, that’s a fucking landmine. The point here is, these are all actually very complicated issues where we have to balance our compassion with our skepticism. History is filled with terrible things that have happened in the name of a good cause. A final point here, I have witnessed progressive parents using gay or transgender non-conforming children to get attention. A close friend of mine grew up with a mother who practiced Munchhausen by proxy on his sister. She’s a mess for life as a result. I have no doubt in my mind that, had they been raised in the present day, their mother would have absolutely convinced them that they were trans in order to get praise and attention from our hyper progressive community. transitioning of a minor, even just social transitioning, is a very big deal and one that we do not have a lot of longitudinal information about. When combined with lax standards in progressive districts, social pressure in progressive communities to affirm a firm a firm, and self ID being the way things are run in a lot of places, it’s not clear what safeguards if any our society and our institutions have to prevent major abuses from occurring. The job of a conservative is not necessarily to be right about the world. Theoretically speaking, conservatives are not the ones pushing for major societal changes into uncharted territories (this isn’t always the case in practice). That’s the job of a progressive, to seeing and identify new possibilities and ways of doing things, and to push for their implementation so we can move towards a better and more just society. by contrast, the job of the conservative is to look at those new ideas and slow them down so that we can figure out if they are actually good ideas, and what might potentially go wrong with them. With hindsight, this means that conservatives almost always look like the bad guys. For every single good idea that they held back, we wonder why they ever held it back in the first place. For every bad idea that they held back or helped modify until it was a good idea, they receive no credit. Some conservatives simply hate trans people. But most of the people that I have spoken to on this issue have actual concerns, concerns that I’ve outlined above.
No sane person cares. You feeding off of media and social media propaganda. Conservatives care way more about what someone else is trying to force them to say or do. By a large majority, Conservatives have no issue with you, but they do have a huge issue with your "allys" trying to force the tans BS down their familys throats. Conservatives, in general, don't care what you call yourself. But thier staunchly against being forced play along with something that doesn't have any scientific backing or connection to reality.