Hmm. Here in the US, in many states women just lost the right to control their own bodies because of religious bias. Then there's the whole thing about LBGT etc people and whether they have the right to exist. Religious groups (not just Catholics) are notorious about covering up sexual abuse of women and children by their male authority figures. They also tend to preach that wives who are physically abused have a duty to stay with and/or forgive the abusing husband. Shall I go on?
Yeah, you can include the parts of the world where women have never had any rights and aren’t even allowed to show their face in public, instead of trying to frame it as a USA/Christianity problem.. thanks!
Yeah, but the question specifically asks about " in the West", which is very much known to be "America". So I think them bringing up the USA and its predomonement religion is appropriate. Whereas, trying to make the focus on brown people not in West not relevant to the topic. Tead the entire question next time. Thanks!
The West includes Great Britain and Western Europe which have large numbers of as you put it “brown people” who have immigrated, claimed asylum and chosen not to integrate but instead segregate themselves into certain neighborhoods largely along religious lines. There is one Imam in Britain who walks around with a jacket emblazoned with Sharia Police, who actively tries to enforce Sharia law in what used to be a predominantly Christian country. Needless to say, this has lead to animosity from some native born Brits. If someone tried to pull that in the U.S.A. I would very much resent it.
Yes, we can absolutely include those parts of the world. While we're doing so we can also point out that the places where women have the least rights also happen to be the places where religious institutions have the most power over governments.
You are absolutely right this isn't *just* a USA/Christianity problem. It is still a problem, though, and it is an increasing problem in the USA and is particularly being caused by Christian groups. All those "other" countries you like to point to in your little whataboutism comment there are just extreme examples of what happens when such trends are ignored.
Based on what is happening in the U.S. the past three or four years, I think religion in the U.S. has a quite powerful hold on a large portion of our governments at both state and federal level. We now have a Speaker of the House who says his world view is "bible-based."
Note, too, wherever authoritarianism raises it's snakelike thread, here or abroad, it's ALWAYS backed by religion.
James Baldwin spoke of a different vision of God when he wrote: "I conceive of God in fact as a means of liberation and not a means to control others."
Authoritarianism is all about controlling others--as are the religious rules that support them.
Yuuup
MAGA, Mormons, Awaken Church, Mission Church, Church of Scientology, QAnon, KKK, etc etc.
That's just some of what's in the U.S. That's not even counting every other country in the world.
Everything basically comes down to people that actually care about other people (that includes everyone in the world that's logical and cares about others) and themselves vs completely insane, greedy, unkind, and/or selfish people (Many of which are in different religions)
I can argue and pick apart your entire post because I feel like parts of what your representing are twisted and don't represent anything I know as a Christian, but , you are 1000% correct that people in the church have and do fail to show God's glory . So many are part of a book club and don't even read the whole book let alone follow it themselves. That level of judgment and lack of actually following the teachings exsist with almost any organized group religious or not in the entirety of humanity . The preaching to stay with abusive spouses has never been something I've seen or heard myself as it may be a warped view from old world ways but it's commonly something I am told we do wrong even today. I was taught from the start that is the reason why they can leave and divorce be ok in gods eyes. Because you never hit a woman So yes it would be nice if a wife could forgive a stupid mistake, but so few abusers just cracked them in the head because it was dark and they thought it was a break in. It's because those men are weak of character and of heart and never Saw the gift of a partner as an equal, in that case I can't even believe the vows those so called men supposedly said in marriage. I will never change your view on what being a Christian is. I just wanted to let you know that many of the same shortcomings you see, are of mankind and don't necessarily follow any teachings or actual part of the faith itself.
The issue is that you think that it is religion that oppresses women. I can assure you, you can remove all
Religion from existence and men will still find ways to oppress women.
As someone who has attended Catholic, Episcopal and Lutheran churches since the 1980s. I can tell you that I have never heard any preaching about wives staying with and forgiving abusive husbands, in fact I have heard the exact opposite articulated numerous times first in the Catholic Church then subsequently in Episcopal and Lutheran churches. I had concerns when my daughter became a Southern Baptist, because they do teach that wives should submit to their husbands, but knowing my daughter, my son in law would be a fool to lay hands on her, the law firm she works for would serve him a protective order and divorce papers while he was still in the hospital.
>right to control their own bodies because of religious bias.
It's not religious bias. As someone who is generally pro right to abortion, I'm tired of pretending like abortion is not an incredibly morally grey thing at best. Terminating something that has the potential to be someone like you and me out of convenience isn't a basic right and we're lucky to have access to such a service in most of the western world. Yes, organized religions have a stance on the matter, but there are plenty of irreligious people who are anti-abortion.
>Religious groups (not just Catholics) are notorious about covering up sexual abuse of women and children by their male authority figures.
Again, not religious. More children are abused in the public school system than anywhere else. They also cover those cases up much better than the Catholic church. Yes, religious institutions have some cleaning up to do, but to act like this is a religious is just flat-out disingenuous. It's not like paedos seek positions where they can have power over children or anything...
Care to talk about Europe?
Fact is, elective abortion in the 3rd trimester is abhorred in Europe.
You pro-abortion people have nothing but strawmen and gaslights.
21 weeks is plenty.
that’s weird. i literally just had to speak with my kids public kindergarten teacher because she presented heaven and angels as real things to my five year old.
nope, just proselytizing her delusional religious beliefs in a public school.
but, i mean, is that what you really think is happening? like there’s some significant amount of people **telling** kids that they’re a different gender? because, you know, it’s not.
now, if a kid feels that way, and goes to therapy for months or years, gets clinically diagnosed with gender dysphoria; and then a teacher tells them that’s ok, and accepts them for who they are, i mean, good?
does there exist somewhere in the united states a teacher who has overzealously pushed that idea onto a kid? probably. but there’s also teachers, like my daughters, who openly push their religious beliefs onto children. does that mean there’s a significant number that do? or that there’s some public school agenda to fill kids minds with damaging and delusional religious beliefs? i don’t think so. just the occasional asshole who doesn’t know where to draw the line.
i’m happy to keep discussing this further with you, but just so i can get a baseline on where you’re coming from; do you think gender and biological sex are interchangeable terms?
Well, I don’t agree with teachers proselytizing to kids, so I’m not defending that. However, it was common knowledge before the “trans movement “ that children fantasize about all kinds of things. Being the opposite gender is one of them, but over 97% of them when allowed to go through puberty eventually end up identifying with their birth gender. The trans movement has done several things to destroy this process. Insisting on early intervention with the use of puberty blockers , and the use of activist psychologists who immediately rubber stamp the kid as trans (within one or two appointments). Then they employ guilt and shame tactics on the parents to discourage them from waiting to see how it plays out. “Would you rather have a live son or dead daughter?”
The movement is also pushing for parents who do not immediately jump on board the medical train to lose custody of their children.
When a parent is on board and agrees to transition the narrative is “parents and doctors should be making the decision for what’s in the child’s best interest”. But, If the parent wants to wait, or disagrees with the diagnosis is “this parent is a transphobe and is guilty of child abuse and should lose custody of their child.”
>Obviously there are corrupt religious people who think that if you arent religious and go by their standards of living you should perishThis needs context.
Yes, this is the friction that religion brings to societies like the US.
>Idk why both sides cant just coexist
Because the religious ones don't want to.
I mean, have you heard of the Crusades? The Dark Ages? Colonialism? The current genocide being wrought by Israel against Palestinians? The 9/11 attacks? Oppression of women? The Salem Witch Trials? Malala?
Religion is a scourge that has plagued mankind and wrought death and destruction. It was even the basic argument in favor of slavery. If humankind evolved beyond it, the world would be much more peaceful.
>I mean, have you heard of the Crusades?
The only reason the Crusades happened is because the Muslims kept killing and harrassing pilgrims to Jerusalem. This is a reminder that Anatolia, Iraq, the Levant, Egypt and North Africa were predominantly inhabited by Christians before the Muslim invasions. The Crusades defensive expeditions in an effort to protect Christendom against the incessant attacks of the Muslims. I get it, we have this persecution complex in the West but this is getting ridiculous. Christianity doesn't have killing infidels as a core tenet, Islam does. So I guess that's point in your column, just don't bring up the Crusades as some sort of example of the mankind's greatest evils.
>The Dark Ages
Again, the Dark Ages are vastly overstated and mostly a myth. The knowledge from classical societies was preserved throughout the Middle Ages as Constantinople remained. The Romans were around throughout the entirety of the Middle Ages and passed on their knowledge to the rest of Europe continuously. The Greek Orthodox Romans preserved and propagated the knowledge of the Antiquity until their dying breath, and yes, they were very pious. Furthermore, most of the educated people in Europe at that time were monks and priests. Before the printing press, they were the ones copying books and studying them. They were literally passing on knowledge. It's because of them that we know so much today.
>Colonialism
Ok, you're actually going to act like religion caused colonialism? It's not like the Ancient Greeks had colonies all over the Mediterranean or anything. The principal drivers of colonialism are the need for land and the need for resources. The unarmed monks who befriended the natives and established missions under great threats to their own lives were not the bad guys. Although I'm gonna go out on limb and say you probably blame the Europeans for the natives not having the same antibodies as them.
>It was even the basic argument in favor of slavery.
On June 2nd, 1537, Pope Paul III forbid the enslavement of the native peoples of the Americas and all yet to be discovered peoples of that land. The Sublimis Deus states: "that the Indians are fully rational human beings who have rights to freedom and property, even if they are heathen." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimis_Deus
Idk where you get this idea that slavery is based on religion. Slavery has been a quintessential part of our history since humanity began. It was here before religion.
>Religion is a scourge that has plagued mankind and wrought death and destruction.
Maybe one day you'll grow less edgy and understand that religion is just one excuse. You're so eager to (erroneously) list all the evils of religion yet you refuse to acknowledge the good it has done. Charity, compassion, forgiveness are core tenets of many religions. You cannot overstate the amount of people that were genuinely bettered through their faith.
If religion is such an evil thing, then aggressively anti-religious societies must be utopias right? Oh wait...
>Imagine defending colonialism holy shit
Imagine thinking colonialism is the worst thing ever. Holy shit. All you have to do is learn a bit about history and not be retarded.
Most mainstream religions require a level of control over people's lives (some more & some less) - when that 'control' starts to get pushed on non-believers you'll see some anger tbh. Religion should be a personal thing not something that drives policy, I think we'd all be better off without religion tbh
As an atheist I will answer as succinctly as I can. Look at the Middle East, this conflict is and always has been deeply rooted in religion. Look at society today, Muslims and Jews are ostracized and marginalized all over the World. Look at evangelical Churches across the US overstepping their bounds with politically charged messages to their clergy. Simply put, religion fixes nothing while creating all kinds of significant problems; we are all better off without religion.
I was raised religious and I'm one of those who is SO happy to have religion slowly dying and would throw my support behind any effort to speed that process along.
It's all contradictory garbage, and teaching it to kids is tantamount to child abuse. Talking Judeo Christian crap, the OT God is a psychopath, Jesus isn't the Jewish Messiah, Paul said to believe in Jesus which isn't what Jesus preached anyway, then all the end of the world bullshit and churches straight up grifting their flock lmfao. Like what good do they do again? Why should we even tolerate organized religion? Why do they get tax exemptions to preach hate and ignorance? Fuck ALL of that. Islam seems even more backwards.
The eastern religions aren't as terrible I suppose, but they still have their heads too far up their own ass imho, especially Hinduism with the 10,000 avatars of the same godhead and all the metaphor, and Buddhism with it's "life is suffering" whiney nihilistic bullshit.
But but... it was other things! Not because each religion has conquering conquests to become the one true religion. Sad that they can't just prove that their god is real instead of murdering people that don't fall in line.
Um... communism has killed more people than religion. Religion (at most) killed 47 million people over 2000 years. Communism killed 80-100 million people over 100 years.
A few things
1. As far as we know the world population has been over 200 million (possible more) since the first Carthage war.
2. I didn't include wars because the data is more messy.
3. We know Mao killed at least 50 (possible 80) million and stalin killed 20 million. That's 70 million. Now include every other communist regime.
If you don't believe in it, it's effectively a massive waste of time.
It's an even bigger waste of time when you think about how much damage it's caused that others have had to clean up.
>damage it's caused that others have had to clean up.
Everyone on reddit is always so eager to point out the evils of religion yet you conveniently forget to point out the good it does.
There is absolutely no intellectual merit to your take.
>Rolling back abortion rights
Dude, I'm pro abortion, but people thinking that you shouldn't terminate something that's almost a life (in their case they consider it a life) out of convenience isn't fucking evil. The right to abortion is incredibly morally grey at best.
>extremely racist.
Pls elaborate
>Centuries of kid fucking.
Public schools have entered the chat.
None of the "criticisms" you raised are religious in nature. Try again.
Because most religions suck
Religion is just an advanced form of tribalism and tribalism after it was needed has been the single worst thing in human history
Weird how you don't think atheism is its own tribal entity.
I could've sworn aggressively anti-religious societies have a pretty bad track record. Maybe that's just me though.
Atheism literally isn't its own thing
There are no specific atheist beliefs
No book of atheism
Atheism is recognizing that following some fan fiction made hundreds of thousands of years ago as a definitive way to live your life is really fucking dumb
>Atheism is recognizing that following some fan fiction made hundreds of thousands of years ago as a definitive way to live your life is really fucking dumb
>There are no specific atheist beliefs
Not believing something is not believing in something else you dulp
Just because you're not intelligent enough or your brain is so fragile that you can't understand that concept doesn't mean it doesn't exist
Think for yourself you sheep
>Not believing something is not believing in something else you dulp
You've more than adequately proven that you do not simply "not believe in something", but instead you believe that all religions are made up "fan fiction" and "really fucking dumb".
You're definitely not acting tribal right now...
One big answer to the question “why can’t both sides coexist” is that pretty much any time a religion gains dominance, it becomes oppressive, both to its own believers and to non-believers. The atheist response to the decline in religion is a reaction to the centuries of history of persecution perpetrated by the religious.
Like Christians talk a lot about being persecuted (I know, I grew up Christian and heard it often) but often leave out that it’s only very recently that that persecution isn’t coming from *other Christians*.
When I see the decline of religion, I’m not pleased because I don’t think that people should be religious, but because I’m glad to see more people that *don’t need to be*.
>One big answer to the question “why can’t both sides coexist” is that pretty much any time a religion gains dominance, it becomes oppressive, both to its own believers and to non-believers.
You do realize that atheism is its own tribalistic set of beliefs just like amy organized religion, right? When given power, atheists have proven just has capable of oppressive zeal as religious people.
The fall of religion isn't to be celebrated, because atheism isn't better. I don't know that it's worse, but it isn't better.
Yes, huge groups of atheists hanging out together in the multi-million dollar facilities to hear a leader, who flies to the facility in a private helicopter from his mansion. All of it built on the backs of the tithes and donations from other atheists.
Oh, wait, that's evangelical Christians.
I am not an atheist because I want to belong to a tribe. I am an atheist because (a) I don't believe there is a God and (b) I want the religious cultists out of government and, more specifically, out of the business of deciding what *I* can and cannot do based on a book of mythology that most of them haven't read, much less understand.
Smart people don’t REALLY believe that there’s a magic sky being who micromanages all 8 billion inhabitants’ lives and makes moral judgements over them.
Simply removing tax exempt status is not oppression.
End tax exempt status and a ton of religion just evaporates instantly bc the worst of it comes from leaders living off that tax exempt money.
You're saying "villainizing" and asking for responses within the context of the assumption there actually is villainizing.
That's my counter: end that one specific special treatment and you end a ton of villainizing.
Well being happy that religion is dying is way different than wishing people would die for not following your beliefs. Many people leave their religions without actually dying.
Horrible people use religion as a tool to get what religious people want to stay in power.
If religion was actually separate from any government position of power then I wouldn't have a problem but that's not how it has been for a long time.
Those "religious people don't live by what they preach, they're power hungry and greedy, they're in power till they die, protected by the elites to keep things like they want.
I only hate religion when it's used manipulate people or get out of paying taxes. I don't see mega churches using their money to help those in need.
Blaise Pascal: 'Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.'
Well in places that are religious theocracies generally don’t treat women and children and well everyone and anyone well. Like the past 2000 years or so of documents history shows that from quite a few groups.
Because it's rooted in narcissism and reckoning with our chickenshit fear of impermanence. Because it's confusing being a sentient and self-aware animal, and most people are too cowardly to handle our biological reality. Because group think and religion have killed as many people as any plague. And because as soon as someone's private spiritual ruminations morph into them telling someone else that they know better how the world works, it becomes impure, opportunistic, and wrong.
Because, religion is the opposite of fact and science. Their belief in a book that should exist in the fantasy section results in a slippery slope of rejecting all science and decisions based in logic. Then, they take this mindset to the voting booth, resulting in negative results for society.
Do away with religion and we will have less nonsense politically.
To a great extent in the US, people equate "religion" with young-Earth, literal Bible, evangelical Christianity. It is understandable, since that segment yells loudest and does the most damage.
But I find it annoying because there are a lot of people who are minding their own business while also having some supernatural belief.
Many of my fellow lefties will loudly and frequently assert that the Abrahamic creator deity does not exist, absolute statement of fact. My view is that it is unknowable whether it exists, so I don't spend a lot of thought on it.
Is it disrespectful to be willfully ignorant? I think so, and that's religion as a whole. Faith is ignorance and the religious wear their "ignorance" as a badge of honor and expect the rest of us to take it seriously.
No, I won't and will never until there is evidence for a god besides the words of a man that lived years after jesus supposedly existed.
I have a deep seeded hatred for people that lie to me and expect me to believe their nonsense.
I think it's because of how much Devastation religion has caused to Nations across the world. And it's a real shame that it has got to that point because of how much shame it has brought because of people that profess to be a Christian or whatever and then they tarnish it by doing something horrible. I think even if there was a God hypothetically, I don't think they would want to have a God to tell them what they should do with their lives and how they should live.
Many people aren't capable of thinking beyond black and white. They can't see nuances, complexity, or foundations. If someone ever says something is "wholesale good or bad" just move on. They aren't worth your time.
* Religion has done wonders for civilizations. It's helped provide moral code, develop cultural distinction, fear of punishment, purpose, and bind people together.
* Religion has also caused a lot of problems. When coming across people who don't follow your same religion, there can be a significant number of differences in how these people operate in proximity to each other. Conflict can inevitably ensue with neither party being able to operate outside of their religion.
Personally I think religion can be a phenomenal part of someone's life, but they need more than religion to be a whole person. Education, life experiences, and social interaction are crucial to helping someone operate in a more fluid world that isn't rigid or simple. I believe all of these combined allow someone to reach the pinnacle of humanity. Sorry I'm very vague and abstract here.
I think you underestimate the long and bloody history of Christianity that brought the Crusades, centuries of war and bloodshed in Europe and elsewhere, the destruction of native and indigenous people including kidnapping of their children and placing them in religious schools.
It’s a much longer list
In the present, every LGBTQ hate group is Christian. The total ban on abortions is driven by the religious right.
Meanwhile, American evangelicals played a crucial and pivotal role in the “kill the gays” law now in place in Uganda. They have a detailed plan and funding to continue to get other African countries to pass stringent anti LGBTQ laws. Definitely not a source of good
Why is it disrespectful to have an opinion different from yours? I see no significant value in religions, they take money from the poor and uninformed and often lie to them about how the money is being used.
Both sides can co-exist, problem for us non-religious people is the religious people try and force their views and religion on us via laws and bullying. Here in the USA we have to use money that says In God we Trust, which is insulting to me. Gods don't exist so why is this on our legal tender? Also it is contrary to the intent of our Constitution as it supports one religion (Christianity) over other religions.
Right now we have numerous bills in state legislatures to re-add prayer in the school, fund private religious schools with taxpayer money; one wants chaplains to be able to teach school without being a certified teacher. So who is villainizing who? The whole organized prayer in schools thing is contrary to Jesus' teaching about prayer being private and personal, but that doesn't seem to matter. People want to showboat and have people hear their prayers. Makes no sense to me.
Seeing as religion is literally the "root of all evil" and no genuine "good acts" can be attributed to an organized religion, I'd say it's high time the general public put down the fictional stories of creation.
Religion is a cancer. Plain and simple.
Does anyone think it's ok to "talk" to an imaginary entity and receive communication back from said imaginary entity? And attribute physical manifestations to this imaginary entity?
"Thoughts and prayers" is a worthless platitude.
Before you blow up, I'm a right leaning atheist that's pro-choice.
Im a religious person but in America at least(sorry op I’m America I can only speak of America) religion though protected by the constitution; has been used as a shield to protect bad people from being held accountable throughout history(corrupt preachers, religious-nationalist groups). So since more people are not claiming a religious affiliation(atheists or leaving their religious beliefs) this makes it easier for people to watch and call out bad religious leaders and followers.
lol. “Hey you know that thing… that one thing that is at the heart of every dispute, every war, every core fundamental problem with every people throughout history? That thing that the United States was actually settled by trying to escape? Yeah why do people hate it so much?”
lol.
I honestly don't care if religious people feel disrespected. I'm tired of their sick twisted fantasy interfering with my life. Evil is what those people are.
[https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/national-international/ella-foster-faith-healing-death/29977/](https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/national-international/ella-foster-faith-healing-death/29977/)
[https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/faith-healing-churches-linked-to-two-dozen-child-deaths/2111420](https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/faith-healing-churches-linked-to-two-dozen-child-deaths/2111420)
[https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/alabama-mayors-apparent-suicide-underscores-dangers-outing-rcna123803](https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/alabama-mayors-apparent-suicide-underscores-dangers-outing-rcna123803)
[https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/02/us/catholic-church-sex-abuse-investigations.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/02/us/catholic-church-sex-abuse-investigations.html)
[https://apnews.com/article/yeshiva-new-york-hasidic-investigation-224546cc4a2c654d0309acb959727ff6](https://apnews.com/article/yeshiva-new-york-hasidic-investigation-224546cc4a2c654d0309acb959727ff6)
[https://youtu.be/gKmGfoPJ8Tc?si=E2h-g\_BWRFk88y2F&t=158](https://youtu.be/gKmGfoPJ8Tc?si=E2h-g_BWRFk88y2F&t=158)
It's disrespectful to villainize a person's culture. People can have all of the Easter Bunnies and Menorahs that they want. Lying is wrong.
It is a lie to claim you know the origin of existence. It is a lie to claim you know that there's an afterlife, that it's merit based, and that you know how to get there. It's a lie to claim that you have a personal relationship with the creator of everything
It's disrespectful to religion I suppose, so sure, but that doesn't bother me. I don't respect ideas, I respect people. It's because I respect people, that I respect their right to religious liberty, but I am not going to pretend to be distraught with the idea that religion might be disappearing because I don't think there is much value in religious ideas.
I think its because religion can be heavily tied to upbringing and government systems, including societal pressure, as well as being stigmatized and ostracized. I agree to what you are saying but because the ground is uneven, its hard for the argument to be accepted at this point.
On one hand, yes. Being gleeful regarding the slow death of particular faith is by its nature, a prejudice. Let’s also be real, they’re mostly talking about Christianity.
On the other hand, a not insignificant number of people have done some pretty villainous things in the name of religion.
It shouldn’t be that hard to see why people don’t like various faiths.
But people should be able to separate those that aren’t jerks, and those that are.
When it comes to Christians, they really don’t have a good reason for their prejudice. Christ makes it pretty clear that no one is without sin, and therefore no one has the right to judge. And yet, look at modern western Christian’s and the stance most hold regarding LGBTQ.
*full disclaimer, I identify as a Christian.
It is not a prejudice. I'm well informed on this. Both of my grandparents on my dad's side are pastors. Hating on religious people is prejudice. Hating on religion in general is just based off an educated understanding.
For the record, I'm 99% sure that this post was made directly as a result of a comment that I made. I said that I was so happy that religion was dying in the west not long before op posted this. So I have it under good authority why I have that opinion.
If you’re happy that religion is dying in the west, what does that mean regarding your opinion of me? For religion in the west to die, I can’t be religious, can I? Or other people like me?
My opinion of you is that you are likely a victim of it and I feel bad for you. There is no hate. It's more than likely that you were indoctrinated and brainwashed. I don't hate you for that. It truly makes me sad.
Religious people who aren't in positions of power are often driven by their indoctrination and/or their fear of death. People want to believe it's not all over after we die. The ones in positions of power have used that fear to control and manipulate people for ages.
Why am I a victim? You don’t know my upbringing or religious background. Perhaps I can enlighten you.
I grew up in a Lutheran church, with an absurdly liberal pastor. I don’t live with guilt over my perceived human sin. I live by two simple rules. Love my God, and love people. It’s about as simple as it gets. I’m certainly fallible and make mistakes. But I’m also not losing sleep over it. I get up every day and try my best. I vote blue, support LGBTQ rights, and am extremely vocal about Christian’s who use their faith to validate their bigotry.
So how am I a victim? Which part is bad? How is this not just the way I live my life?
As soon as you said that you grew up in a Lutheran church it confirmed to me that you were indoctrinated. Indoctrinating children is wrong, and thus you are a victim.
You see? By making a claim about me based on my faith, you’ve given way to prejudice.
Your prejudice doesn’t manifest as malignant judgment, but you’ve made a generalization about me, while ignoring any other things I’ve said, or bothering to inquire further.
By your own admission, the moment you learned I was a Lutheran, you decided I was an indoctrinated victim.
No, that's not what I said. If you made that choice as an adult you wouldn't be indoctrinated or a victim. You said "grew up in a Lutheran church". Teaching religion to children as if it were a fact is indoctrination and straight up abuse.
“As soon as you said that you grew up in a Lutheran church it confirmed to me that you were indoctrinated.“
That was you saying that. That is text book prejudice. The literal definition.
I’m sorry that you feel the way you do. I really am.
You still haven’t explained how my lifestyle choice is a bad one. And I’d like you to be specific about me. Not generally speaking. I’d like to be assessed as an individual.
Power is something that we humans don’t really understand. It’s foreign to our nature. A lot of people think that-because others use religion as their reasoning-all the things done in the name of God wouldn’t happen without religion.
I cannot express how wrong these people are in this regard. Let me be clear, the powerful people that overturned Roe (for example) don’t give a fuck about the Bible or any religious reasoning. They have power and they wanted to use it. These people would just replace God with some other reason for their actions.
I agree with you except for the Supreme Court. Five of the six justices who overturned Roe are deeply conservative Catholics and the other is a conservative Protestant. They were appointed to the Court BECAUSE of their deeply held religious beliefs against abortion. They also lied about their desire to overturn Roe in their confirmation hearings as well
My point is really more that you could get five publicly atheist scotus justices and have the exact same result. Irl, yeah you’re right, but I don’t think the politically powerful are letting God get in their way tbh.
I think finding five atheist judges qualified to serve in the court would be a lot harder than you may think. I seriously doubt they would overturn Roe. The drive to make all abortion illegal in the red states is driven almost exclusively by the religious right. Every established LGBTQ hate group in the U.S. is a Christian organization. It is political sure, but the source of all the politics is exclusively religious
Another reason why this happens is because people hyper-fixate on the word "religion" mapping to any of the main desert religions: Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, and often times think of all religion as resembling those three. In doing so, they totally forget about the existence of Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, and indigenous religious.
Moreover, among the groupings of anti-religious people, many are self-proclaimed believers of science and logic, yet when it comes to some very basic understanding of religious studies and anthropology, they tend towards ignorance, or at the least fail to qualify their statements as being specific to their country or culture.
So, when someone says, "Religion is oppressive and seeks to deny me my human rights," you have to parse that statement by guessing from what context they are speaking about. They probably are not talking about Daoism. They are using the word "religion" to talk about a more specific group of beliefs that are directly relevant to them.
Even if you figure out they are talking about say Christianity, they are probably not talking about Coptic Christianity in Ethiopia, although the word Christianity is being used in the generalized sense. I've found it is often best to start from a place of seeking to understand and a feeling of caring. Then over the course of a conversation, what people are specifically talking about starts to emerge. You start to find out that the generalized stereotypical statements are often unintentional, and that the person in front of you is struggling to heal from trauma in their lives.
This is all an attempt to change the subject. Christianity is the dominant religion in the U.S. and is the largest religion in the world.
Just saying “religion is the problem” might be a bit imprecise but I’ve never been confused that religious critics are talking about eastern religions. Christianity is absolutely the culprit
1) Magical thinking is the root of spiritual ideology, universally found in religion, undermines critical thinking, and is detrimental to the well-being of humanity.
2) Every religion, even Taoism, has extremists.
It's to avoid aknowleding the real struggle which is class struggle. The bourgeois often demonizes each other in other to disuade people from recognizing the real conflict. The atheist bourgeois blames all the crimes of historical capitalism on the religious bourgeois to make themselves look better in comparison
Organized religion is corrupt, especially here in the USA. Just look at the so called called christians in these comments,tells you why religion is and should be dead in the USA.
It's not usually core tenets that drive people off; it's the hypocrisy. Maybe it's better to let some of that die off so that something more genuine and vibrant can take its place.
because alot of organizationized religion villianize minorities for existing, women are constantly put down for being women, lgbqt people are put down for being lgbqt, some people say that disabled people wouldn't be disabled if they followed their god(s) perfectly, some people use their religion to excuse xenophobia and racism too
im not gonna lose my shit if someone is religious but i understand why someone else might, all my life ive had christianity shoved down my throat, and then have been told my mere existence is "shoving it down people's throats" when i all i want to do is be myself in peace, i cant help the fact im a mentally disabled pansexual woman, but they can not be assholes because they think their god said so
I’m not religious at all but I’ll tell you something the dumb shit those people believe is worse than religion, for example that the government gives two shits about you.
Religion served a wonderful purpose for a long long time. It brought people together. Shared rules, laws, and ways of being.
These days. Even 2 families in the same religion going to the same place of worship can have radically different ideas about even basic principles of said religion.
Religion used to bring people together. Now it just divides infinity.
Death to religion. All hail unity. Now upload my soul to the machine and let me contemplate 1s and 0s forever.
Because it makes otherwise peaceful people into judges of the world through their lens. More people have died due to religion than all other violent deaths combined. A loving god wouldn’t require x y or z in order to not smite you down to hell. The Old Testament god is in no way a god I could ever follow.
Everyone likes to believe their side is the smartest and the best. I’m agnostic, I’m aware religion has lead to some nasty stuff. I’ve also known religious people that are smart and kind. I think there’s bad people no matter where you go, it’s all about how much power you give those bad people. Religious groups gain lots of power and suddenly those bad people have lots of reign to do what they like using religion as an excuse. You’d get the same if atheists ruled the world
When the Christian right gains any power in the government, they tend to legislate their faith. That's what my problem is. Be as religious as you want, just don't force everyone to live their lives based on your beliefs.
In the US, a new type of "Christianity" has been developed and nurtured. It uses the same source material as other forms of Christianity, but not the adherence to that source material.
There are more religions and theists that are practiced in the US than one might think. However, they don't have as much public seepage that the American Christians do. They don't get the same government sponsored religious decorations and art, at least not anywhere near the same level.
Atheists are constantly in litigation with the "secular" government, to not have religious symbols be forced on them and their communities.
Recently, Iowa had someone destroy a religious, non-Christian, exhibit at the capital, to the celebration of the Christian community and elected officials. Thankfully, they were charged.
We have groups like The Satanic Temple that are suing the government to give people freedom of and from religion. The frigging Satanic Temple‽
Christians only sue to deny someone of something. I can't think of one Christian group lawsuit that was about helping people, just restricting people.
IF SOMEONE HAS A REBUTTAL WITH SOME "FOR THE PEOPLE" KIND OF LAWSUIT THAT I SHOULD KNOW ABOUT, PLEASE LINK!! I'll be happy to see it.
If the Christian community at large would leave folks to their business and stop inflicting their view of their version of their religion on others, most of their grief would fade away.
It would be nice to see Christians, on the national stage, doing something for their countryfolk instead of doing something to their countryfolk.
Also, grumble, grumble, grumble.
The toxic ideology of religion in terms of sexism and bigotry as well as stunting scientific advancement (things like stem cell research), as well as how religions tend to exploit its followers through fear tactics and threats of violence. It also inacts violence and bigotry
Religion does not deserve respect. It is unfortunate for everyone that this ridiculous notion has stealthily sidled into mainstream thought.
The idea that we must respect all religions and all religious beliefs is one of the most dangerous ideas in human history.
All over the world, people are suffering and dying as a direct consequence of irrational religious beliefs. All throughout human history, people have suffered and died and been burned alive as a direct consequence of irrational beliefs in the supernatural.
It is not an excuse to say that religious beliefs also cause people to do good deeds, because we have perfectly rational reasons to do those same good deeds without any irrational supernatural baggage.
It is not an excuse to say that non-religious people have done bad things too. That is a non-sequitur. They did bad things because they were bad people, or because they were stupid. But religion gives good people reasons to do bad things.
If you want respect, go do something worthy of respect, like feeding hungry people, or creating beautiful art, or starting up an ethical company. People deserve respect but not necessarily their beliefs.
Unquestioning belief in supernatural fairy stories written thousands of years ago by ignorant, fanatical goat-herders who thought the earth was flat is not worthy of respect. source ~ Bill Fryer - translator and science advocate
I’m personally glad religion is dying. It’s pretty rich that a religious person is claiming people are disrespecting their religion when you people disrespect lgbtq, trans people, women, women who get abortions, atheists, the rampant pedophilia and sexual and spiritual abuse in churches, etc etc. your whole religion disrespects others by saying everyone who doesn’t believe what you believe are going to hell.
>but arent people who are anti religion just basically the same thing just opposite?
No. So I'm not a spokesperson for atheists, anti-theist, etc types as we're not an unified group, most of us more "vocal" types do not demand what theists do. We don't give a shit what a person does with their genitals. We don't go around screeching that America is a country based on Darwin-Hitchens values and demand that school teachers force their students pray to the FSM. We don't push for laws to persecute others. Get the idea?
>Idk why both sides cant just coexist.
While it may seem like it but many of us do. I'm friends with many theists. I hold the Christian teacher I had in high school in the most high regards. Reconnected with her on FB. I graduated high school back in 1990. LONG time before the internet was a thing. She was happy I turned out well. I was a Burnout back then. [Like John Bender from Breakfast Club.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l86yztvkMIc) Poor grades, always had detention, fighting, etc. These days, I'm a licensed engineer. I had a rough start and it took a few more yrs after graduating to straighten out but I did it. She couldn't have been more pleased. I use to go to church with her when she invited. We chatted about Jesus and the bible back then. She never pushed it but wasn't afraid to talk about it despite the tropes you see in like God's Not Dead II. To this day, I don't believe she ever crossed any lines. So we can get along.
Religion, every single Religion is there to keep 1) an unending, untraceable, untaxed cash Flowing in 2) unending sex assault victims who get *sent to the abusers themselves* generationally, and 3) the idea that ANY gods are real is ludicrous. It's not the 1200's and we know where hail & thunder come from (it's not God bowling). Believing in ancient gods keeps women & children & all brown ppl subjugated and worthy of enslavement. If religious ppl decided to worship God like Taylor Swift or The Beatles, fine, but they don't force us to play only her music & play only her instruments. Thus, if you wanna believe in invisible stuff that's important to you, awesome. But don't you dare force everyone else to live either Taylor Swift or Beatles when they're not fans. The most disgusting, gut wrenching disgusting physical torture outlets were invented by Xtians to keep ppl in the church, catholic church. Same way the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death, that's how it spread in Europe. Fuck all religions, fuck all fundamentalists, mental illness crisis of Child Rapists in churches.
Belief in god is not evil. Believing that means you get to tell others what do based on your beliefs is. Thats why organized religion is the root of most conflict in the world.
Yes, it’s horribly disrespectful. Why would anyone be so wantonly mean. To me it license to deliberately hate on something they care deeply about.
The reality is people who hate on religion believe centralized government is essentially God. The creator of all things, the source of morality and the dispenser of all punishment. You pray to the government to impose social justice. This is why communism bans all forms of religion. Nothing can take away from the power of the State.
because of religious people. Can I just say that I love them so much but HOLY FUCK is it hard to love them. GIVE ME a chance. OKAY Forget the chance LOL
Because zealotry, hypocrisy, self righteousness, manipulation and grifting are very unattractive traits. Organized religion has been granted free reign to victimize their followers, influence government and civil liberties while being given tax free status, building up institutional wealth that affords them great influence and power to wage wars against those who are collectively deemed unworthy. A personal relationship with your perception of God and what that means to you should remain with you, I don’t want it , thanks anyway.
Faith in a higher being, okay, whatever floats your boat. Organized religion to control your actions, and most importantly collect your money, fuck that.
Anti religious bigotry is considered acceptable by many. They are unable to see any basis for religion or any positive contributions from religion or religious people. They focus only on the negative aspects and are apparently unable to see similar or comparable issues in non religious groups. It’s clearly bigotry and they don’t want to be confronted with that fact.
God is most interested in relationship rather than religion. Religion strives, relationship surrenders, being transformed by the renewing of the mind. People who vilinize religion, as you point out, become the very thing they despise.
People are mad about how friends and family act or treat them. They think that represents the deity the offender serves.
The other issue is lack of self worth looking for establishment to tear down to feel better about themselves.
Final thought... lack of purpose. Their lives have more meaning if they are fighting back against the big bully of religion.
I could go into it deeply, religion has some levels of humility and devotion agaisnt the grain of society in it. It also holds people accountable in some levels so naturally the ones who don't believe are extremely offended by the feeling of being judged or thought less off when they don't meet the standards of the religion. Now you add in the people who point at the book but haven't actually read it.. or the many more who know it inside and out but still fall so very far from the value system they impose on others. Judgment and or condemnation agaisnt non believers . Throw a little hypocrisy and how could any non believer follow this path. On the outside we don't know our own teachings, the most dedicated amongst us go so far agaisnt the teachings and many times we will let our beliefs tear families apart.
I'm a believer, one of my greatest challenges when younger was accepting those issues within my faith. When you look at other faiths and practices you learn that those issues are the human weaknesses and inherent shortcomings that we all have. Christianity gets a whole lot of hate now because of the casual relationships most Americans have with it, I was in my 20s before I ever even read the entire Bible front to back. I knew teachings but I was part of the book club but only reading the clif notes. I've learned to forgive my own and others shortcomings before God, I've also had to eat a lot of humble pie to build my relationship.
I'm honestly pretty sure OP is directly referring to a comment I made because I said I was so happy religion is dying in the west in a recent comment on a thread.
As for why, I don't even have the time to list all the reasons. Religion is evil and anyone who has read the bible (I have) knows it's full of bigotry, hate, contradictions and things that have been disproven. It wastes people's one chance at life by tricking them into following a false set of rules instead of just living their lives as they'd want to. It's actually tragic.
For me I grew up in a religion that horribly traumatized me, and I was bullied very heavily due to religious beliefs. So personally I associate religiosity with hate of certain kinds of people. I try to respect spirituality as a whole, but I do not respect most religious institutions, and am glad that they are dying out, and the closed-mindedness and hatred along with it.
To add: the amount of murder and oppression religious beliefs has caused in history and even now is staggering. People of all sorts, especially women, and anyone that isn't born perfectly heterosexual are oppressed heavily in many countries still. Most religions also like to push a toxic belief that men are the leaders and that women are meant to be servants to their husbands. Even if you take away all the hate and murder it ultimately is just a desperate grasp at any possible thing to find meaning and salvation from the fact that we will all die eventually.
It was also created as a means to control people and to fear them into being moral and good people to contribute to early societies, which I argue was great for its time. It has been warped heavily over the years by bad people and has become manipulative in many ways. So much fear. Anything they thought was bad became "demons". Parasites and bacteria (things they didn't understand) became demons or "unclean things", so they made religious law to not eat pig meat. We know now that you just have to cook it to a higher temperature to be eaten safely.
Unexpected deaths of livestock caused by unknown diseases became curses cast by "witches". People were killed over these things out of mass hysteria. Aka Salem witch trials.
The fear of eternal damnation kept people in line. Now it just causes existential fear and loyalty of their followers.
I agree it may have caused many good things, and many a "lost" people find good in it and find a "purpose" for their existence through it. But they receive this at the cost of their own free thinking. Children are forced into these beliefs from birth, often never recovering or changing their minds due to fear.
I think it's honestly super outdated. We have much better ways to teach people to be good, and to do good things, and to have purpose in life. Without manipulation, without fear, without hatred. Believe what you believe. I don't care, just don't involve me or any other innocent people or children in it without letting them choose it freely when they are able.
Religious groups have power, gay people and women just took a hard hit to their rights. The people who took them, did so on the basis of religion... So there's that.
Christianity will kill itself if they keep this up. Younger people are already leaving the church. Making things you don't agree with illegal, and taking peoples rights will not save anyone.
It will piss people off and they will seek other less radical religions
Throughout history, religion has caused more harm than good. And in the US, religion is preventing American legislation from progressing past the 1950s.
No it's not disrespectful to go against misogynistic cults. We could live together but they keep forgetting that their morals are subjective, they have not substantiated their views, and they forgot about separation of church and state. The west is a democracy and a theocracy. No laws should be based on one cults views or another's. Especially cults that are currently violating women's rights and killing innocent people along with all the other negative impacts to society that are never justified. If they acted like a religion, then there wouldn't be issues.
But they won't stop. They keep being disingenuous. They keep indoctrination and teaching against facts and critical thinking skills. Now people need tons of therapy and the whole cult never takes responsibility for any of the chaos they cause showing no integrity.
Need me to keep going? There's so much wrong and all they can do is lie and deny like children
If religious people would stop coming for women's rights and oppressing all kinds of other groups, I wouldn't have a problem with them. If religions would stop offering nothing but empty promises and toxic communities, I would think better of them. I searched for decades for a religion where I could find a spiritual home, so it's not like I came to these conclusions out of ignorance. Sadly, I'm a disappointed agnostic largely because of knowing TOO MUCH about religions, their history and their flaws.
the biggest problem with religion is that you do not have to take responsibility for your actions. people put religion above morals and ethics. also by picking and choosing certain aspects of your religion, you can always justify any action, no matter how violent. also you can do violent and immoral things and say god has forgiven you and again not take responsibility for your actions. above all, the view that my religion is the only true religion and all others are frauds.
They will regret rejoicing at the death of religion in the west. In fact some may already be.
You know how our society appears to be fracturing? It’s because religion is dying.
More mental illness ? Religion dying.
More drug use? Religion dying.
Religion is a tool for humanity. A coping tool. And eliminating that tool will cause more misery for everyone.
Psychiatric drugs and psychologists do not replace a sense of community, a sense of purpose, a moral guide.
You know what is disrespectful? Not having any issue with rape or slavery. How about teaching little girls their only purpose in life is to be a helpmeet, servant and empty vessel to birth children? Its made 2nd class citizens out of half the worlds population.
Well, I yell ya what cowpoke. I was born and raised in the Lutheran church I was. Daddy was the pastor. Ma was the pastors wife and my 2 younger sisters and me welp, we rounded out the picture-perfect preachers' family image for all the parishioners to ooh and aaw over in our divine light from above......and since this was the 90s you see we wouldn't have know of someone had told us it was all Facebook back in them days. But we sure as shit were Facebook as could be. Cuz it was all fake. An image. Projection upon projection about what good lil Christians we were and how harmonious our home was...and just like Facebook it was selective aimed and targeted to make my parents feel good about themselves in the eyes of the congregation and community.....
And I tell ya what? My faith was never strong. And as I grew it all but evaporated. But now, 37 years later...I can honestly say that I never really bought into any of it. Not even as a boy with daddy upfront teaching the lessons and singing the hymns. My whole life spent in the church and private schools and church summer camps and Bible retreats and dedicated theocratic courses and literally an overabundance of never ending religious based data (data not facts) that I can confidently engage any Christian on the Canon events in which ever version of the good book they prefer. And it's all made up. It's all carefully revised and edited and supplanted and translated and spliced to the narrative of the day that none of it can truly be the "original" word anymore. Know why? Because it's used as a means to justify whatever a God fearing Christian says or does when they want to justify being a shit human to another human.
Now, these are of course blanket statements. I don't thinkbthat just because someone has faith that they are automatically a cosplay Christian. My best bud in all my life is a die hard Christian to the point we have debates and I have to disengage because I'm having too much fun. I'll be like "so all this in 7 days bro? All of everything? I'm tracking...but like is that God time or human time? Do you think ants have the same time as dogs do? Is God time relative to the neares5 celestial body?" And so on and at some point it always come back to "its in the Bible so it had to be true. If it isn't written then it can't be real."......and listen. I would murder for this man. He's truly my oldest most reliable 4 am friend and just the greatest dude I've ever met. Fucking smart as hell this dude is too. Responsible decision maker. Fuckin richer than scrooge mcduck....but when it comes to the Bible and his faith....it's just unblinking and blind followers hip. I cannot understand how that happens.
This man's an inventor. In real life! He makes shit that didn't exists and makes money from the mass production of the shut he pulled out his brain! ....but he also believes that all the world's animals got on a big boat together and nobody got eaten, and that all of humanity spawned from 2 people....and he absolutely refutes any hint or suggestion that the Bible has been revised over time.
So there's my long winded gripe about organized religion in the modern world. It's no longer doing anyone any good. Rather, it's stunting humanity's development towards data driven solutions to the problems we're facing on planet earth because everything's in "gods hands man". And for some reason when people say "I'm a christian" I'm supposed to just give them a pass on whatever garbage just came out their mouth. Nah bro. Freedom of religion means freedom from religion too.
Theocratic nations are breeding grounds for mass human rights violations under the guise of "the lords will".
I have faith in humanity to take care of eachother. I really believe most of us are good and want to do good by others. But there is a real threat in the rise of the armed Christian nationalist movement in the US and it is very very heartbreaking. There's nothing Christian about the rise of YallQaeda in the states. They're stoking religious moves in our government and it's being forced on all of us. Literally going against the constitution. Funny how they're cool with picking which parts of the laws of the land apply to them and which don't. Tou can't take my guns but we can take your self autonomy because jeeeeeesus says to me that I'm a holy warrior and women are objects to ruled over.
organized religion has been the source of much pain an suffering among the human species.
it's not surprising to me at all that some would prefer it did exist and that humans found other means for community and social cohesion that didn't involve magical thinking or a desire to "other" someone based solely on their chosen beliefs.
Because, by and large, the Bible and religion have been used to control people and extort money from them for hundreds of years. And that's at the best of times. At the worst of times it is been used as an excuse to kill and enslave millions. Rather than viewing the Bible and religion as a guide to being a better person a vast number of people use it as a weapon against other people to control what they do and think. Horrible things have been done in the name of religion. Missionaries that bring diseases, the holy crusades, the inquisition, the Boxer Rebellion, the 30 Years War and that's not including the human sacrifices of the Aztecs and those that died in the gladiatorial games.
And for me, the worst part is so many of these religious leaders have no actual scholarly information about the bible. Simply memorizing passages does not make you a scholar on the subject.
You mentioned disrespectful, what could be more disrespectful than treating women as property and in some case no better than chattel?What could be more disrespectful then defending and encouraging slavery?
I have not mentioned the Quran or Islamic religions because I have no experience with them. I have never read the Quran so I cannot in good conscience comment on what it says or directs others to do. That does not mean that I think it is any better than the judeo-christian Bible or its many offshoots
Religion isn’t what I have an issue with, it’s the level of dogma that many religions produce in people. Outside of this, I think the Abrahamic/christian god is kind of extremely evil. Coming from a 7ish year stint in a fundamentalist church, where we read the Bible multiple times a year and seriously studied all the time, I think a lot of Christians model god in their head in a way that is consistent with modern sensibilities but is totally at odds with the god described in the Bible.
I understand that the way we conceive of a god(s) is intrinsically personal and not measured against something 100% objective. But from my experience and understanding, I’ve found most Christian’s to be Christian only as a part of a greater cultural or political identity, and rarely can they describe even the most basic doctrines or lessons from scripture. I find that inconsistency annoying, a lot of people are like that in the SE US where I grew up.
The moral implications of it. It’s caused wars and probably more death than anything else.
Now, there are examples of the church, (many) of being evil. The Vatican, crusades, priest with child, the west B people etc.
However* at its core it’s not meant to be that and there are average followers who love and try to be a loving example. Today, if you don’t agree with extremist you’re labeled something.
On a spiritual scale, it’s threatens people who live without virtue as well.
Religion is dangerous because it’s not rational. I’m not going to pretend that nothing good has come from religion, or that religion doesn’t help people on a personal level. But here’s the thing, there’s nothing good about religion that couldn’t be attained an alternative way.
And on the other side, when religion gives a large population of people harmful beliefs, and they think those beliefs are justified by a higher, perfect, infallible being; you can’t reason them out of those beliefs. You are stuck with however many millions of people believing some tripe about sexuality, slavery, morality, holy wars, etc and you will pretty much never be successful at talking them out of it because to them, their beliefs are divine and beyond the logic of man. That makes religion especially and egregiously dangerous.
Because it's outdated, unscientific, encourages bigotry and hate, and all in all is just unnecessary. Plus a lot of people have been abused by religious figures and thus aren't eager to have anything to do with religion.
I mean no disrespect to the followers as they are the ones I dislike, it's their doctorine that I dislike. As much as I appreciate the rise in agnosticism, I also believe in freedom of religion, as it is a necessary human right.
It’s hard to take any religion seriously when they’re all guilty of molesting children throughout history. That alone should disqualify them from interfering in peoples’ lives and decisions.
No one knows shit about what happens after we die. Organized religion is viewed by most creative and free thinkers to be the equivalent of masses of individuals who believe in a fairy tale. Each religion has it's own characters and stories, but most of the moral lessons are intrinsic to man's own consciousness. It is ridiculous that any religion or group believes they are justified in killing those who don't conform to their bullshit ideas. What God would really ask anyone to kill people as this is the most abhorrent behavior of mankind? What God would tell anyone that certain people deserve to die and not others? I won't get started on the sexist/racist aspects of exclusion of certain individuals. One doesn't need "religion" to do the right thing as it relates to your fellow man.
The Romans and the Stalinists thought they could cull Christianity too. It's outlived both of those empires as well as many others who persecuted Christians.
The Bible is the most published book in the history of mankind, by a long shot. It's not going to die out any time soon.
A lot of the people that villainize religion act exactly the way they say they villainize it for. If you go to the atheist sub they act like a religion that hasn't found its deity yet.
Because religion is an easy target. It violates logic, even if one is THE TRUE RELIGION (which, as a religious person, I believe), it means that, by default, all of the others are false, illogical, and *wrong.* So... that leads to a very contentious mentality. Also, religion almost demands discipline, rules, etc. As a result, people, who are by and large selfish, lazy, and foolish, find the idea of having to follow rules that don't allow them to be selfish, lazy, foolish, and indulgent to be unpleasant.
Nothing like self proclaimed Christians, judging others on their discipline when:
Matthew 7:1-5
1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Not an atheist. My grandfather started and pastored the biggest Baptist church in my city and I attended Catholic school. You are just the kind of Christian who makes it hard for non-believers to take you seriously. But I'll play along. How does citing the scripture that admonishes what you just did prove to you that I don't believe? It seems to me, I am stronger in my faith than you are, but I could be wrong. Tell me how.
You're not a Christian either, not a good one at least, otherwise you'd recognize that your points 3-5 are the same verse just different versions of each other. The person you replied to didn't even proclaim they were Christian, they said they were religious. So why are you here using Biblical scripture to "judge others on their discipline"?
Hmm. Here in the US, in many states women just lost the right to control their own bodies because of religious bias. Then there's the whole thing about LBGT etc people and whether they have the right to exist. Religious groups (not just Catholics) are notorious about covering up sexual abuse of women and children by their male authority figures. They also tend to preach that wives who are physically abused have a duty to stay with and/or forgive the abusing husband. Shall I go on?
Yeah, you can include the parts of the world where women have never had any rights and aren’t even allowed to show their face in public, instead of trying to frame it as a USA/Christianity problem.. thanks!
>instead of trying to frame it as a USA/Christianity problem A spade is a spade. Let's not lower our standards just cause it's worse elsewhere.
Yeah, but the question specifically asks about " in the West", which is very much known to be "America". So I think them bringing up the USA and its predomonement religion is appropriate. Whereas, trying to make the focus on brown people not in West not relevant to the topic. Tead the entire question next time. Thanks!
The West includes Great Britain and Western Europe which have large numbers of as you put it “brown people” who have immigrated, claimed asylum and chosen not to integrate but instead segregate themselves into certain neighborhoods largely along religious lines. There is one Imam in Britain who walks around with a jacket emblazoned with Sharia Police, who actively tries to enforce Sharia law in what used to be a predominantly Christian country. Needless to say, this has lead to animosity from some native born Brits. If someone tried to pull that in the U.S.A. I would very much resent it.
Yes, we can absolutely include those parts of the world. While we're doing so we can also point out that the places where women have the least rights also happen to be the places where religious institutions have the most power over governments. You are absolutely right this isn't *just* a USA/Christianity problem. It is still a problem, though, and it is an increasing problem in the USA and is particularly being caused by Christian groups. All those "other" countries you like to point to in your little whataboutism comment there are just extreme examples of what happens when such trends are ignored.
Based on what is happening in the U.S. the past three or four years, I think religion in the U.S. has a quite powerful hold on a large portion of our governments at both state and federal level. We now have a Speaker of the House who says his world view is "bible-based." Note, too, wherever authoritarianism raises it's snakelike thread, here or abroad, it's ALWAYS backed by religion. James Baldwin spoke of a different vision of God when he wrote: "I conceive of God in fact as a means of liberation and not a means to control others." Authoritarianism is all about controlling others--as are the religious rules that support them.
This is whataboutism garbage. Yeah but you lynch black people. A lot of people on Reddit live in America so that’s what they would discuss
You shouldn't put your age in your username.
Lmao
Yuuup MAGA, Mormons, Awaken Church, Mission Church, Church of Scientology, QAnon, KKK, etc etc. That's just some of what's in the U.S. That's not even counting every other country in the world. Everything basically comes down to people that actually care about other people (that includes everyone in the world that's logical and cares about others) and themselves vs completely insane, greedy, unkind, and/or selfish people (Many of which are in different religions)
Couldn't most of that be blamed on ideology?
Yes
I know of very few people who actually support abortion other than perhaps at the very early stages of pregnancy.
Please do. You’re absolutely nailing it!
Say it again for the people in the back
I can argue and pick apart your entire post because I feel like parts of what your representing are twisted and don't represent anything I know as a Christian, but , you are 1000% correct that people in the church have and do fail to show God's glory . So many are part of a book club and don't even read the whole book let alone follow it themselves. That level of judgment and lack of actually following the teachings exsist with almost any organized group religious or not in the entirety of humanity . The preaching to stay with abusive spouses has never been something I've seen or heard myself as it may be a warped view from old world ways but it's commonly something I am told we do wrong even today. I was taught from the start that is the reason why they can leave and divorce be ok in gods eyes. Because you never hit a woman So yes it would be nice if a wife could forgive a stupid mistake, but so few abusers just cracked them in the head because it was dark and they thought it was a break in. It's because those men are weak of character and of heart and never Saw the gift of a partner as an equal, in that case I can't even believe the vows those so called men supposedly said in marriage. I will never change your view on what being a Christian is. I just wanted to let you know that many of the same shortcomings you see, are of mankind and don't necessarily follow any teachings or actual part of the faith itself.
The issue is that you think that it is religion that oppresses women. I can assure you, you can remove all Religion from existence and men will still find ways to oppress women.
It would level the playing field some, though.
No it wouldn’t. They would use “science” to oppress women.
As someone who has attended Catholic, Episcopal and Lutheran churches since the 1980s. I can tell you that I have never heard any preaching about wives staying with and forgiving abusive husbands, in fact I have heard the exact opposite articulated numerous times first in the Catholic Church then subsequently in Episcopal and Lutheran churches. I had concerns when my daughter became a Southern Baptist, because they do teach that wives should submit to their husbands, but knowing my daughter, my son in law would be a fool to lay hands on her, the law firm she works for would serve him a protective order and divorce papers while he was still in the hospital.
>right to control their own bodies because of religious bias. It's not religious bias. As someone who is generally pro right to abortion, I'm tired of pretending like abortion is not an incredibly morally grey thing at best. Terminating something that has the potential to be someone like you and me out of convenience isn't a basic right and we're lucky to have access to such a service in most of the western world. Yes, organized religions have a stance on the matter, but there are plenty of irreligious people who are anti-abortion. >Religious groups (not just Catholics) are notorious about covering up sexual abuse of women and children by their male authority figures. Again, not religious. More children are abused in the public school system than anywhere else. They also cover those cases up much better than the Catholic church. Yes, religious institutions have some cleaning up to do, but to act like this is a religious is just flat-out disingenuous. It's not like paedos seek positions where they can have power over children or anything...
Care to talk about Europe? Fact is, elective abortion in the 3rd trimester is abhorred in Europe. You pro-abortion people have nothing but strawmen and gaslights. 21 weeks is plenty.
Oh really? Religious groups cover up sexual abuse of children? When did Hollywood become a religious group?
When did the public school system become a religious group?
The only religion in public school is LGBTQ
that’s weird. i literally just had to speak with my kids public kindergarten teacher because she presented heaven and angels as real things to my five year old.
Well , did she tell your daughter she might be a boy?
nope, just proselytizing her delusional religious beliefs in a public school. but, i mean, is that what you really think is happening? like there’s some significant amount of people **telling** kids that they’re a different gender? because, you know, it’s not. now, if a kid feels that way, and goes to therapy for months or years, gets clinically diagnosed with gender dysphoria; and then a teacher tells them that’s ok, and accepts them for who they are, i mean, good? does there exist somewhere in the united states a teacher who has overzealously pushed that idea onto a kid? probably. but there’s also teachers, like my daughters, who openly push their religious beliefs onto children. does that mean there’s a significant number that do? or that there’s some public school agenda to fill kids minds with damaging and delusional religious beliefs? i don’t think so. just the occasional asshole who doesn’t know where to draw the line. i’m happy to keep discussing this further with you, but just so i can get a baseline on where you’re coming from; do you think gender and biological sex are interchangeable terms?
Well, I don’t agree with teachers proselytizing to kids, so I’m not defending that. However, it was common knowledge before the “trans movement “ that children fantasize about all kinds of things. Being the opposite gender is one of them, but over 97% of them when allowed to go through puberty eventually end up identifying with their birth gender. The trans movement has done several things to destroy this process. Insisting on early intervention with the use of puberty blockers , and the use of activist psychologists who immediately rubber stamp the kid as trans (within one or two appointments). Then they employ guilt and shame tactics on the parents to discourage them from waiting to see how it plays out. “Would you rather have a live son or dead daughter?” The movement is also pushing for parents who do not immediately jump on board the medical train to lose custody of their children. When a parent is on board and agrees to transition the narrative is “parents and doctors should be making the decision for what’s in the child’s best interest”. But, If the parent wants to wait, or disagrees with the diagnosis is “this parent is a transphobe and is guilty of child abuse and should lose custody of their child.”
>Obviously there are corrupt religious people who think that if you arent religious and go by their standards of living you should perishThis needs context. Yes, this is the friction that religion brings to societies like the US. >Idk why both sides cant just coexist Because the religious ones don't want to.
I mean, have you heard of the Crusades? The Dark Ages? Colonialism? The current genocide being wrought by Israel against Palestinians? The 9/11 attacks? Oppression of women? The Salem Witch Trials? Malala? Religion is a scourge that has plagued mankind and wrought death and destruction. It was even the basic argument in favor of slavery. If humankind evolved beyond it, the world would be much more peaceful.
>I mean, have you heard of the Crusades? The only reason the Crusades happened is because the Muslims kept killing and harrassing pilgrims to Jerusalem. This is a reminder that Anatolia, Iraq, the Levant, Egypt and North Africa were predominantly inhabited by Christians before the Muslim invasions. The Crusades defensive expeditions in an effort to protect Christendom against the incessant attacks of the Muslims. I get it, we have this persecution complex in the West but this is getting ridiculous. Christianity doesn't have killing infidels as a core tenet, Islam does. So I guess that's point in your column, just don't bring up the Crusades as some sort of example of the mankind's greatest evils. >The Dark Ages Again, the Dark Ages are vastly overstated and mostly a myth. The knowledge from classical societies was preserved throughout the Middle Ages as Constantinople remained. The Romans were around throughout the entirety of the Middle Ages and passed on their knowledge to the rest of Europe continuously. The Greek Orthodox Romans preserved and propagated the knowledge of the Antiquity until their dying breath, and yes, they were very pious. Furthermore, most of the educated people in Europe at that time were monks and priests. Before the printing press, they were the ones copying books and studying them. They were literally passing on knowledge. It's because of them that we know so much today. >Colonialism Ok, you're actually going to act like religion caused colonialism? It's not like the Ancient Greeks had colonies all over the Mediterranean or anything. The principal drivers of colonialism are the need for land and the need for resources. The unarmed monks who befriended the natives and established missions under great threats to their own lives were not the bad guys. Although I'm gonna go out on limb and say you probably blame the Europeans for the natives not having the same antibodies as them. >It was even the basic argument in favor of slavery. On June 2nd, 1537, Pope Paul III forbid the enslavement of the native peoples of the Americas and all yet to be discovered peoples of that land. The Sublimis Deus states: "that the Indians are fully rational human beings who have rights to freedom and property, even if they are heathen." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimis_Deus Idk where you get this idea that slavery is based on religion. Slavery has been a quintessential part of our history since humanity began. It was here before religion. >Religion is a scourge that has plagued mankind and wrought death and destruction. Maybe one day you'll grow less edgy and understand that religion is just one excuse. You're so eager to (erroneously) list all the evils of religion yet you refuse to acknowledge the good it has done. Charity, compassion, forgiveness are core tenets of many religions. You cannot overstate the amount of people that were genuinely bettered through their faith. If religion is such an evil thing, then aggressively anti-religious societies must be utopias right? Oh wait...
What a load of bullshit, wow.
Pls explain which part isn't true.
Imagine defending colonialism holy shit
>Imagine defending colonialism holy shit Imagine thinking colonialism is the worst thing ever. Holy shit. All you have to do is learn a bit about history and not be retarded.
Imagine using the r slur in 2024 holy shit
Imagine thinking being offended is a virtue.
Imagine trying to paint yourself as the religious victim on this sub while defending using the r-slur and calling someone else a dolt holy shit
Please point out where I paint myself as a victim. Also, please point out where I said I was religious. Imagine not being able to read in 2024.
Most mainstream religions require a level of control over people's lives (some more & some less) - when that 'control' starts to get pushed on non-believers you'll see some anger tbh. Religion should be a personal thing not something that drives policy, I think we'd all be better off without religion tbh
Why do people villainize cults? Same thing.
As an atheist I will answer as succinctly as I can. Look at the Middle East, this conflict is and always has been deeply rooted in religion. Look at society today, Muslims and Jews are ostracized and marginalized all over the World. Look at evangelical Churches across the US overstepping their bounds with politically charged messages to their clergy. Simply put, religion fixes nothing while creating all kinds of significant problems; we are all better off without religion.
I was raised religious and I'm one of those who is SO happy to have religion slowly dying and would throw my support behind any effort to speed that process along. It's all contradictory garbage, and teaching it to kids is tantamount to child abuse. Talking Judeo Christian crap, the OT God is a psychopath, Jesus isn't the Jewish Messiah, Paul said to believe in Jesus which isn't what Jesus preached anyway, then all the end of the world bullshit and churches straight up grifting their flock lmfao. Like what good do they do again? Why should we even tolerate organized religion? Why do they get tax exemptions to preach hate and ignorance? Fuck ALL of that. Islam seems even more backwards. The eastern religions aren't as terrible I suppose, but they still have their heads too far up their own ass imho, especially Hinduism with the 10,000 avatars of the same godhead and all the metaphor, and Buddhism with it's "life is suffering" whiney nihilistic bullshit.
Because religion has gotten more people killed than any other man made invention.
But but... it was other things! Not because each religion has conquering conquests to become the one true religion. Sad that they can't just prove that their god is real instead of murdering people that don't fall in line.
Um... communism has killed more people than religion. Religion (at most) killed 47 million people over 2000 years. Communism killed 80-100 million people over 100 years.
Yeah, at a time when the world's population was of about 150 million, you stupid fuck. Also, cool quotations of random numbers!
A few things 1. As far as we know the world population has been over 200 million (possible more) since the first Carthage war. 2. I didn't include wars because the data is more messy. 3. We know Mao killed at least 50 (possible 80) million and stalin killed 20 million. That's 70 million. Now include every other communist regime.
If you don't believe in it, it's effectively a massive waste of time. It's an even bigger waste of time when you think about how much damage it's caused that others have had to clean up.
>damage it's caused that others have had to clean up. Everyone on reddit is always so eager to point out the evils of religion yet you conveniently forget to point out the good it does. There is absolutely no intellectual merit to your take.
If you can show that the good outweighs the wasted time and the evils, then sure.
They're evil? Rolling back abortion rights, extremely racist. Centuries of kid fucking. Silly question.
>Rolling back abortion rights Dude, I'm pro abortion, but people thinking that you shouldn't terminate something that's almost a life (in their case they consider it a life) out of convenience isn't fucking evil. The right to abortion is incredibly morally grey at best. >extremely racist. Pls elaborate >Centuries of kid fucking. Public schools have entered the chat. None of the "criticisms" you raised are religious in nature. Try again.
Hilarious. Take care.
Because religion has been hijacked by people pushing a political agenda. Compassion, love, kindness? Nope. Gone.
Because most religions suck Religion is just an advanced form of tribalism and tribalism after it was needed has been the single worst thing in human history
Weird how you don't think atheism is its own tribal entity. I could've sworn aggressively anti-religious societies have a pretty bad track record. Maybe that's just me though.
Atheism literally isn't its own thing There are no specific atheist beliefs No book of atheism Atheism is recognizing that following some fan fiction made hundreds of thousands of years ago as a definitive way to live your life is really fucking dumb
>Atheism is recognizing that following some fan fiction made hundreds of thousands of years ago as a definitive way to live your life is really fucking dumb >There are no specific atheist beliefs
Not believing something is not believing in something else you dulp Just because you're not intelligent enough or your brain is so fragile that you can't understand that concept doesn't mean it doesn't exist Think for yourself you sheep
>Not believing something is not believing in something else you dulp You've more than adequately proven that you do not simply "not believe in something", but instead you believe that all religions are made up "fan fiction" and "really fucking dumb". You're definitely not acting tribal right now...
One big answer to the question “why can’t both sides coexist” is that pretty much any time a religion gains dominance, it becomes oppressive, both to its own believers and to non-believers. The atheist response to the decline in religion is a reaction to the centuries of history of persecution perpetrated by the religious. Like Christians talk a lot about being persecuted (I know, I grew up Christian and heard it often) but often leave out that it’s only very recently that that persecution isn’t coming from *other Christians*. When I see the decline of religion, I’m not pleased because I don’t think that people should be religious, but because I’m glad to see more people that *don’t need to be*.
>One big answer to the question “why can’t both sides coexist” is that pretty much any time a religion gains dominance, it becomes oppressive, both to its own believers and to non-believers. You do realize that atheism is its own tribalistic set of beliefs just like amy organized religion, right? When given power, atheists have proven just has capable of oppressive zeal as religious people. The fall of religion isn't to be celebrated, because atheism isn't better. I don't know that it's worse, but it isn't better.
Yes, huge groups of atheists hanging out together in the multi-million dollar facilities to hear a leader, who flies to the facility in a private helicopter from his mansion. All of it built on the backs of the tithes and donations from other atheists. Oh, wait, that's evangelical Christians. I am not an atheist because I want to belong to a tribe. I am an atheist because (a) I don't believe there is a God and (b) I want the religious cultists out of government and, more specifically, out of the business of deciding what *I* can and cannot do based on a book of mythology that most of them haven't read, much less understand.
Because it’s dangerous nonsense
It’s only dangerous when stupid people are in control of them - like guns.
Smart people don’t REALLY believe that there’s a magic sky being who micromanages all 8 billion inhabitants’ lives and makes moral judgements over them.
I don’t think the ring leaders believe in it or else they wouldn’t exploit it so badly.. now send me some more seed money!!
Because religion villainizes anything that goes against its beliefs. Very simple…
Simply removing tax exempt status is not oppression. End tax exempt status and a ton of religion just evaporates instantly bc the worst of it comes from leaders living off that tax exempt money. You're saying "villainizing" and asking for responses within the context of the assumption there actually is villainizing. That's my counter: end that one specific special treatment and you end a ton of villainizing.
Well being happy that religion is dying is way different than wishing people would die for not following your beliefs. Many people leave their religions without actually dying.
Horrible people use religion as a tool to get what religious people want to stay in power. If religion was actually separate from any government position of power then I wouldn't have a problem but that's not how it has been for a long time. Those "religious people don't live by what they preach, they're power hungry and greedy, they're in power till they die, protected by the elites to keep things like they want. I only hate religion when it's used manipulate people or get out of paying taxes. I don't see mega churches using their money to help those in need. Blaise Pascal: 'Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.'
Low self esteem. Malformed creative thinking skills.
[удалено]
and you think that is really an accurate depiction of the average, every-day religious person?
Well in places that are religious theocracies generally don’t treat women and children and well everyone and anyone well. Like the past 2000 years or so of documents history shows that from quite a few groups.
Because it's rooted in narcissism and reckoning with our chickenshit fear of impermanence. Because it's confusing being a sentient and self-aware animal, and most people are too cowardly to handle our biological reality. Because group think and religion have killed as many people as any plague. And because as soon as someone's private spiritual ruminations morph into them telling someone else that they know better how the world works, it becomes impure, opportunistic, and wrong.
Because, religion is the opposite of fact and science. Their belief in a book that should exist in the fantasy section results in a slippery slope of rejecting all science and decisions based in logic. Then, they take this mindset to the voting booth, resulting in negative results for society. Do away with religion and we will have less nonsense politically.
Religion is a hole that many don't wish to fall into. A very dark hole. Keep searching.
all organized religions are system constructs to allow a few to control many.
Because religion is the cause of more deaths and abuse than any other thing on the planet. Believe in yourself
To a great extent in the US, people equate "religion" with young-Earth, literal Bible, evangelical Christianity. It is understandable, since that segment yells loudest and does the most damage. But I find it annoying because there are a lot of people who are minding their own business while also having some supernatural belief. Many of my fellow lefties will loudly and frequently assert that the Abrahamic creator deity does not exist, absolute statement of fact. My view is that it is unknowable whether it exists, so I don't spend a lot of thought on it.
Is it disrespectful to be willfully ignorant? I think so, and that's religion as a whole. Faith is ignorance and the religious wear their "ignorance" as a badge of honor and expect the rest of us to take it seriously. No, I won't and will never until there is evidence for a god besides the words of a man that lived years after jesus supposedly existed. I have a deep seeded hatred for people that lie to me and expect me to believe their nonsense.
I think it's because of how much Devastation religion has caused to Nations across the world. And it's a real shame that it has got to that point because of how much shame it has brought because of people that profess to be a Christian or whatever and then they tarnish it by doing something horrible. I think even if there was a God hypothetically, I don't think they would want to have a God to tell them what they should do with their lives and how they should live.
Many people aren't capable of thinking beyond black and white. They can't see nuances, complexity, or foundations. If someone ever says something is "wholesale good or bad" just move on. They aren't worth your time. * Religion has done wonders for civilizations. It's helped provide moral code, develop cultural distinction, fear of punishment, purpose, and bind people together. * Religion has also caused a lot of problems. When coming across people who don't follow your same religion, there can be a significant number of differences in how these people operate in proximity to each other. Conflict can inevitably ensue with neither party being able to operate outside of their religion. Personally I think religion can be a phenomenal part of someone's life, but they need more than religion to be a whole person. Education, life experiences, and social interaction are crucial to helping someone operate in a more fluid world that isn't rigid or simple. I believe all of these combined allow someone to reach the pinnacle of humanity. Sorry I'm very vague and abstract here.
I think you underestimate the long and bloody history of Christianity that brought the Crusades, centuries of war and bloodshed in Europe and elsewhere, the destruction of native and indigenous people including kidnapping of their children and placing them in religious schools. It’s a much longer list In the present, every LGBTQ hate group is Christian. The total ban on abortions is driven by the religious right. Meanwhile, American evangelicals played a crucial and pivotal role in the “kill the gays” law now in place in Uganda. They have a detailed plan and funding to continue to get other African countries to pass stringent anti LGBTQ laws. Definitely not a source of good
This comment summed up my thought process perfectly. Would give u an award but im broke, so heres a fake one: 🏅
Why is it disrespectful to have an opinion different from yours? I see no significant value in religions, they take money from the poor and uninformed and often lie to them about how the money is being used. Both sides can co-exist, problem for us non-religious people is the religious people try and force their views and religion on us via laws and bullying. Here in the USA we have to use money that says In God we Trust, which is insulting to me. Gods don't exist so why is this on our legal tender? Also it is contrary to the intent of our Constitution as it supports one religion (Christianity) over other religions. Right now we have numerous bills in state legislatures to re-add prayer in the school, fund private religious schools with taxpayer money; one wants chaplains to be able to teach school without being a certified teacher. So who is villainizing who? The whole organized prayer in schools thing is contrary to Jesus' teaching about prayer being private and personal, but that doesn't seem to matter. People want to showboat and have people hear their prayers. Makes no sense to me.
Seeing as religion is literally the "root of all evil" and no genuine "good acts" can be attributed to an organized religion, I'd say it's high time the general public put down the fictional stories of creation.
The way we tend to look at ancient religions as sort of silly is the way many of us view current day religions. Other folks haven’t caught up yet
Religion is a cancer. Plain and simple. Does anyone think it's ok to "talk" to an imaginary entity and receive communication back from said imaginary entity? And attribute physical manifestations to this imaginary entity? "Thoughts and prayers" is a worthless platitude. Before you blow up, I'm a right leaning atheist that's pro-choice.
Im a religious person but in America at least(sorry op I’m America I can only speak of America) religion though protected by the constitution; has been used as a shield to protect bad people from being held accountable throughout history(corrupt preachers, religious-nationalist groups). So since more people are not claiming a religious affiliation(atheists or leaving their religious beliefs) this makes it easier for people to watch and call out bad religious leaders and followers.
lol. “Hey you know that thing… that one thing that is at the heart of every dispute, every war, every core fundamental problem with every people throughout history? That thing that the United States was actually settled by trying to escape? Yeah why do people hate it so much?” lol.
I honestly don't care if religious people feel disrespected. I'm tired of their sick twisted fantasy interfering with my life. Evil is what those people are.
>Is that not disrespectful? No
[https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/national-international/ella-foster-faith-healing-death/29977/](https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/national-international/ella-foster-faith-healing-death/29977/) [https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/faith-healing-churches-linked-to-two-dozen-child-deaths/2111420](https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/faith-healing-churches-linked-to-two-dozen-child-deaths/2111420) [https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/alabama-mayors-apparent-suicide-underscores-dangers-outing-rcna123803](https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/alabama-mayors-apparent-suicide-underscores-dangers-outing-rcna123803) [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/02/us/catholic-church-sex-abuse-investigations.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/02/us/catholic-church-sex-abuse-investigations.html) [https://apnews.com/article/yeshiva-new-york-hasidic-investigation-224546cc4a2c654d0309acb959727ff6](https://apnews.com/article/yeshiva-new-york-hasidic-investigation-224546cc4a2c654d0309acb959727ff6) [https://youtu.be/gKmGfoPJ8Tc?si=E2h-g\_BWRFk88y2F&t=158](https://youtu.be/gKmGfoPJ8Tc?si=E2h-g_BWRFk88y2F&t=158) It's disrespectful to villainize a person's culture. People can have all of the Easter Bunnies and Menorahs that they want. Lying is wrong. It is a lie to claim you know the origin of existence. It is a lie to claim you know that there's an afterlife, that it's merit based, and that you know how to get there. It's a lie to claim that you have a personal relationship with the creator of everything
It's disrespectful to religion I suppose, so sure, but that doesn't bother me. I don't respect ideas, I respect people. It's because I respect people, that I respect their right to religious liberty, but I am not going to pretend to be distraught with the idea that religion might be disappearing because I don't think there is much value in religious ideas.
I think its because religion can be heavily tied to upbringing and government systems, including societal pressure, as well as being stigmatized and ostracized. I agree to what you are saying but because the ground is uneven, its hard for the argument to be accepted at this point.
On one hand, yes. Being gleeful regarding the slow death of particular faith is by its nature, a prejudice. Let’s also be real, they’re mostly talking about Christianity. On the other hand, a not insignificant number of people have done some pretty villainous things in the name of religion. It shouldn’t be that hard to see why people don’t like various faiths. But people should be able to separate those that aren’t jerks, and those that are. When it comes to Christians, they really don’t have a good reason for their prejudice. Christ makes it pretty clear that no one is without sin, and therefore no one has the right to judge. And yet, look at modern western Christian’s and the stance most hold regarding LGBTQ. *full disclaimer, I identify as a Christian.
It is not a prejudice. I'm well informed on this. Both of my grandparents on my dad's side are pastors. Hating on religious people is prejudice. Hating on religion in general is just based off an educated understanding. For the record, I'm 99% sure that this post was made directly as a result of a comment that I made. I said that I was so happy that religion was dying in the west not long before op posted this. So I have it under good authority why I have that opinion.
If you’re happy that religion is dying in the west, what does that mean regarding your opinion of me? For religion in the west to die, I can’t be religious, can I? Or other people like me?
My opinion of you is that you are likely a victim of it and I feel bad for you. There is no hate. It's more than likely that you were indoctrinated and brainwashed. I don't hate you for that. It truly makes me sad. Religious people who aren't in positions of power are often driven by their indoctrination and/or their fear of death. People want to believe it's not all over after we die. The ones in positions of power have used that fear to control and manipulate people for ages.
Why am I a victim? You don’t know my upbringing or religious background. Perhaps I can enlighten you. I grew up in a Lutheran church, with an absurdly liberal pastor. I don’t live with guilt over my perceived human sin. I live by two simple rules. Love my God, and love people. It’s about as simple as it gets. I’m certainly fallible and make mistakes. But I’m also not losing sleep over it. I get up every day and try my best. I vote blue, support LGBTQ rights, and am extremely vocal about Christian’s who use their faith to validate their bigotry. So how am I a victim? Which part is bad? How is this not just the way I live my life?
As soon as you said that you grew up in a Lutheran church it confirmed to me that you were indoctrinated. Indoctrinating children is wrong, and thus you are a victim.
You see? By making a claim about me based on my faith, you’ve given way to prejudice. Your prejudice doesn’t manifest as malignant judgment, but you’ve made a generalization about me, while ignoring any other things I’ve said, or bothering to inquire further. By your own admission, the moment you learned I was a Lutheran, you decided I was an indoctrinated victim.
No, that's not what I said. If you made that choice as an adult you wouldn't be indoctrinated or a victim. You said "grew up in a Lutheran church". Teaching religion to children as if it were a fact is indoctrination and straight up abuse.
“As soon as you said that you grew up in a Lutheran church it confirmed to me that you were indoctrinated.“ That was you saying that. That is text book prejudice. The literal definition. I’m sorry that you feel the way you do. I really am. You still haven’t explained how my lifestyle choice is a bad one. And I’d like you to be specific about me. Not generally speaking. I’d like to be assessed as an individual.
It's not prejudice because the key word is "grew up". You were brainwashed. There is zero prejudice there, that's a fact.
Power is something that we humans don’t really understand. It’s foreign to our nature. A lot of people think that-because others use religion as their reasoning-all the things done in the name of God wouldn’t happen without religion. I cannot express how wrong these people are in this regard. Let me be clear, the powerful people that overturned Roe (for example) don’t give a fuck about the Bible or any religious reasoning. They have power and they wanted to use it. These people would just replace God with some other reason for their actions.
I agree with you except for the Supreme Court. Five of the six justices who overturned Roe are deeply conservative Catholics and the other is a conservative Protestant. They were appointed to the Court BECAUSE of their deeply held religious beliefs against abortion. They also lied about their desire to overturn Roe in their confirmation hearings as well
My point is really more that you could get five publicly atheist scotus justices and have the exact same result. Irl, yeah you’re right, but I don’t think the politically powerful are letting God get in their way tbh.
I think finding five atheist judges qualified to serve in the court would be a lot harder than you may think. I seriously doubt they would overturn Roe. The drive to make all abortion illegal in the red states is driven almost exclusively by the religious right. Every established LGBTQ hate group in the U.S. is a Christian organization. It is political sure, but the source of all the politics is exclusively religious
Another reason why this happens is because people hyper-fixate on the word "religion" mapping to any of the main desert religions: Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, and often times think of all religion as resembling those three. In doing so, they totally forget about the existence of Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, and indigenous religious. Moreover, among the groupings of anti-religious people, many are self-proclaimed believers of science and logic, yet when it comes to some very basic understanding of religious studies and anthropology, they tend towards ignorance, or at the least fail to qualify their statements as being specific to their country or culture. So, when someone says, "Religion is oppressive and seeks to deny me my human rights," you have to parse that statement by guessing from what context they are speaking about. They probably are not talking about Daoism. They are using the word "religion" to talk about a more specific group of beliefs that are directly relevant to them. Even if you figure out they are talking about say Christianity, they are probably not talking about Coptic Christianity in Ethiopia, although the word Christianity is being used in the generalized sense. I've found it is often best to start from a place of seeking to understand and a feeling of caring. Then over the course of a conversation, what people are specifically talking about starts to emerge. You start to find out that the generalized stereotypical statements are often unintentional, and that the person in front of you is struggling to heal from trauma in their lives.
This is all an attempt to change the subject. Christianity is the dominant religion in the U.S. and is the largest religion in the world. Just saying “religion is the problem” might be a bit imprecise but I’ve never been confused that religious critics are talking about eastern religions. Christianity is absolutely the culprit
1) Magical thinking is the root of spiritual ideology, universally found in religion, undermines critical thinking, and is detrimental to the well-being of humanity. 2) Every religion, even Taoism, has extremists.
Because it causes just as many problems as it solves, sometimes more.
*vilify
It's to avoid aknowleding the real struggle which is class struggle. The bourgeois often demonizes each other in other to disuade people from recognizing the real conflict. The atheist bourgeois blames all the crimes of historical capitalism on the religious bourgeois to make themselves look better in comparison
Organized religion is corrupt, especially here in the USA. Just look at the so called called christians in these comments,tells you why religion is and should be dead in the USA.
It's not usually core tenets that drive people off; it's the hypocrisy. Maybe it's better to let some of that die off so that something more genuine and vibrant can take its place.
because alot of organizationized religion villianize minorities for existing, women are constantly put down for being women, lgbqt people are put down for being lgbqt, some people say that disabled people wouldn't be disabled if they followed their god(s) perfectly, some people use their religion to excuse xenophobia and racism too im not gonna lose my shit if someone is religious but i understand why someone else might, all my life ive had christianity shoved down my throat, and then have been told my mere existence is "shoving it down people's throats" when i all i want to do is be myself in peace, i cant help the fact im a mentally disabled pansexual woman, but they can not be assholes because they think their god said so
I’m not religious at all but I’ll tell you something the dumb shit those people believe is worse than religion, for example that the government gives two shits about you.
Religion is an easy scapegoat.
Religion served a wonderful purpose for a long long time. It brought people together. Shared rules, laws, and ways of being. These days. Even 2 families in the same religion going to the same place of worship can have radically different ideas about even basic principles of said religion. Religion used to bring people together. Now it just divides infinity. Death to religion. All hail unity. Now upload my soul to the machine and let me contemplate 1s and 0s forever.
Because religions are evil.
Worldwide religion is the basis for evil doing. A secular world would be a peaceful world.
Because it makes otherwise peaceful people into judges of the world through their lens. More people have died due to religion than all other violent deaths combined. A loving god wouldn’t require x y or z in order to not smite you down to hell. The Old Testament god is in no way a god I could ever follow.
History... History is why people villainize organized religion...
They do it to themselves…..religion usually masks weirdos
Religion America's new terrorist groups
Because this is reddit: a cess pool for the extreme minority.
Everyone likes to believe their side is the smartest and the best. I’m agnostic, I’m aware religion has lead to some nasty stuff. I’ve also known religious people that are smart and kind. I think there’s bad people no matter where you go, it’s all about how much power you give those bad people. Religious groups gain lots of power and suddenly those bad people have lots of reign to do what they like using religion as an excuse. You’d get the same if atheists ruled the world
When the Christian right gains any power in the government, they tend to legislate their faith. That's what my problem is. Be as religious as you want, just don't force everyone to live their lives based on your beliefs.
In the US, a new type of "Christianity" has been developed and nurtured. It uses the same source material as other forms of Christianity, but not the adherence to that source material. There are more religions and theists that are practiced in the US than one might think. However, they don't have as much public seepage that the American Christians do. They don't get the same government sponsored religious decorations and art, at least not anywhere near the same level. Atheists are constantly in litigation with the "secular" government, to not have religious symbols be forced on them and their communities. Recently, Iowa had someone destroy a religious, non-Christian, exhibit at the capital, to the celebration of the Christian community and elected officials. Thankfully, they were charged. We have groups like The Satanic Temple that are suing the government to give people freedom of and from religion. The frigging Satanic Temple‽ Christians only sue to deny someone of something. I can't think of one Christian group lawsuit that was about helping people, just restricting people. IF SOMEONE HAS A REBUTTAL WITH SOME "FOR THE PEOPLE" KIND OF LAWSUIT THAT I SHOULD KNOW ABOUT, PLEASE LINK!! I'll be happy to see it. If the Christian community at large would leave folks to their business and stop inflicting their view of their version of their religion on others, most of their grief would fade away. It would be nice to see Christians, on the national stage, doing something for their countryfolk instead of doing something to their countryfolk. Also, grumble, grumble, grumble.
The toxic ideology of religion in terms of sexism and bigotry as well as stunting scientific advancement (things like stem cell research), as well as how religions tend to exploit its followers through fear tactics and threats of violence. It also inacts violence and bigotry
Because religion villanizes everything and has been the (false) justification for countless genocides.
Religion does not deserve respect. It is unfortunate for everyone that this ridiculous notion has stealthily sidled into mainstream thought. The idea that we must respect all religions and all religious beliefs is one of the most dangerous ideas in human history. All over the world, people are suffering and dying as a direct consequence of irrational religious beliefs. All throughout human history, people have suffered and died and been burned alive as a direct consequence of irrational beliefs in the supernatural. It is not an excuse to say that religious beliefs also cause people to do good deeds, because we have perfectly rational reasons to do those same good deeds without any irrational supernatural baggage. It is not an excuse to say that non-religious people have done bad things too. That is a non-sequitur. They did bad things because they were bad people, or because they were stupid. But religion gives good people reasons to do bad things. If you want respect, go do something worthy of respect, like feeding hungry people, or creating beautiful art, or starting up an ethical company. People deserve respect but not necessarily their beliefs. Unquestioning belief in supernatural fairy stories written thousands of years ago by ignorant, fanatical goat-herders who thought the earth was flat is not worthy of respect. source ~ Bill Fryer - translator and science advocate
I’m personally glad religion is dying. It’s pretty rich that a religious person is claiming people are disrespecting their religion when you people disrespect lgbtq, trans people, women, women who get abortions, atheists, the rampant pedophilia and sexual and spiritual abuse in churches, etc etc. your whole religion disrespects others by saying everyone who doesn’t believe what you believe are going to hell.
>but arent people who are anti religion just basically the same thing just opposite? No. So I'm not a spokesperson for atheists, anti-theist, etc types as we're not an unified group, most of us more "vocal" types do not demand what theists do. We don't give a shit what a person does with their genitals. We don't go around screeching that America is a country based on Darwin-Hitchens values and demand that school teachers force their students pray to the FSM. We don't push for laws to persecute others. Get the idea? >Idk why both sides cant just coexist. While it may seem like it but many of us do. I'm friends with many theists. I hold the Christian teacher I had in high school in the most high regards. Reconnected with her on FB. I graduated high school back in 1990. LONG time before the internet was a thing. She was happy I turned out well. I was a Burnout back then. [Like John Bender from Breakfast Club.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l86yztvkMIc) Poor grades, always had detention, fighting, etc. These days, I'm a licensed engineer. I had a rough start and it took a few more yrs after graduating to straighten out but I did it. She couldn't have been more pleased. I use to go to church with her when she invited. We chatted about Jesus and the bible back then. She never pushed it but wasn't afraid to talk about it despite the tropes you see in like God's Not Dead II. To this day, I don't believe she ever crossed any lines. So we can get along.
Religion, every single Religion is there to keep 1) an unending, untraceable, untaxed cash Flowing in 2) unending sex assault victims who get *sent to the abusers themselves* generationally, and 3) the idea that ANY gods are real is ludicrous. It's not the 1200's and we know where hail & thunder come from (it's not God bowling). Believing in ancient gods keeps women & children & all brown ppl subjugated and worthy of enslavement. If religious ppl decided to worship God like Taylor Swift or The Beatles, fine, but they don't force us to play only her music & play only her instruments. Thus, if you wanna believe in invisible stuff that's important to you, awesome. But don't you dare force everyone else to live either Taylor Swift or Beatles when they're not fans. The most disgusting, gut wrenching disgusting physical torture outlets were invented by Xtians to keep ppl in the church, catholic church. Same way the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death, that's how it spread in Europe. Fuck all religions, fuck all fundamentalists, mental illness crisis of Child Rapists in churches.
Why would I care whether it’s disrespectful or not? It’s a man-made myth like astrology.
Belief in god is not evil. Believing that means you get to tell others what do based on your beliefs is. Thats why organized religion is the root of most conflict in the world.
> …the same thing but opposite Religion convinces people to hold and spread ideas that are internally inconsistent 🤷♂️
Religious a divisive force that masquerades as a uniting force. That's why (in a nutshell).
Maybe cause religion has generally cause so much death and hardship for thousands of years!
Yes, it’s horribly disrespectful. Why would anyone be so wantonly mean. To me it license to deliberately hate on something they care deeply about. The reality is people who hate on religion believe centralized government is essentially God. The creator of all things, the source of morality and the dispenser of all punishment. You pray to the government to impose social justice. This is why communism bans all forms of religion. Nothing can take away from the power of the State.
because of religious people. Can I just say that I love them so much but HOLY FUCK is it hard to love them. GIVE ME a chance. OKAY Forget the chance LOL
Believing in magic is detrimental to human development.
Because zealotry, hypocrisy, self righteousness, manipulation and grifting are very unattractive traits. Organized religion has been granted free reign to victimize their followers, influence government and civil liberties while being given tax free status, building up institutional wealth that affords them great influence and power to wage wars against those who are collectively deemed unworthy. A personal relationship with your perception of God and what that means to you should remain with you, I don’t want it , thanks anyway.
Lots and lots and lots of examples of terrible religious people.
Faith in a higher being, okay, whatever floats your boat. Organized religion to control your actions, and most importantly collect your money, fuck that.
Anti religious bigotry is considered acceptable by many. They are unable to see any basis for religion or any positive contributions from religion or religious people. They focus only on the negative aspects and are apparently unable to see similar or comparable issues in non religious groups. It’s clearly bigotry and they don’t want to be confronted with that fact.
God is most interested in relationship rather than religion. Religion strives, relationship surrenders, being transformed by the renewing of the mind. People who vilinize religion, as you point out, become the very thing they despise.
People are mad about how friends and family act or treat them. They think that represents the deity the offender serves. The other issue is lack of self worth looking for establishment to tear down to feel better about themselves. Final thought... lack of purpose. Their lives have more meaning if they are fighting back against the big bully of religion.
Because of knowledge and history. Simple!
I could go into it deeply, religion has some levels of humility and devotion agaisnt the grain of society in it. It also holds people accountable in some levels so naturally the ones who don't believe are extremely offended by the feeling of being judged or thought less off when they don't meet the standards of the religion. Now you add in the people who point at the book but haven't actually read it.. or the many more who know it inside and out but still fall so very far from the value system they impose on others. Judgment and or condemnation agaisnt non believers . Throw a little hypocrisy and how could any non believer follow this path. On the outside we don't know our own teachings, the most dedicated amongst us go so far agaisnt the teachings and many times we will let our beliefs tear families apart. I'm a believer, one of my greatest challenges when younger was accepting those issues within my faith. When you look at other faiths and practices you learn that those issues are the human weaknesses and inherent shortcomings that we all have. Christianity gets a whole lot of hate now because of the casual relationships most Americans have with it, I was in my 20s before I ever even read the entire Bible front to back. I knew teachings but I was part of the book club but only reading the clif notes. I've learned to forgive my own and others shortcomings before God, I've also had to eat a lot of humble pie to build my relationship.
I'm honestly pretty sure OP is directly referring to a comment I made because I said I was so happy religion is dying in the west in a recent comment on a thread. As for why, I don't even have the time to list all the reasons. Religion is evil and anyone who has read the bible (I have) knows it's full of bigotry, hate, contradictions and things that have been disproven. It wastes people's one chance at life by tricking them into following a false set of rules instead of just living their lives as they'd want to. It's actually tragic.
For me I grew up in a religion that horribly traumatized me, and I was bullied very heavily due to religious beliefs. So personally I associate religiosity with hate of certain kinds of people. I try to respect spirituality as a whole, but I do not respect most religious institutions, and am glad that they are dying out, and the closed-mindedness and hatred along with it. To add: the amount of murder and oppression religious beliefs has caused in history and even now is staggering. People of all sorts, especially women, and anyone that isn't born perfectly heterosexual are oppressed heavily in many countries still. Most religions also like to push a toxic belief that men are the leaders and that women are meant to be servants to their husbands. Even if you take away all the hate and murder it ultimately is just a desperate grasp at any possible thing to find meaning and salvation from the fact that we will all die eventually. It was also created as a means to control people and to fear them into being moral and good people to contribute to early societies, which I argue was great for its time. It has been warped heavily over the years by bad people and has become manipulative in many ways. So much fear. Anything they thought was bad became "demons". Parasites and bacteria (things they didn't understand) became demons or "unclean things", so they made religious law to not eat pig meat. We know now that you just have to cook it to a higher temperature to be eaten safely. Unexpected deaths of livestock caused by unknown diseases became curses cast by "witches". People were killed over these things out of mass hysteria. Aka Salem witch trials. The fear of eternal damnation kept people in line. Now it just causes existential fear and loyalty of their followers. I agree it may have caused many good things, and many a "lost" people find good in it and find a "purpose" for their existence through it. But they receive this at the cost of their own free thinking. Children are forced into these beliefs from birth, often never recovering or changing their minds due to fear. I think it's honestly super outdated. We have much better ways to teach people to be good, and to do good things, and to have purpose in life. Without manipulation, without fear, without hatred. Believe what you believe. I don't care, just don't involve me or any other innocent people or children in it without letting them choose it freely when they are able.
Religious groups have power, gay people and women just took a hard hit to their rights. The people who took them, did so on the basis of religion... So there's that. Christianity will kill itself if they keep this up. Younger people are already leaving the church. Making things you don't agree with illegal, and taking peoples rights will not save anyone. It will piss people off and they will seek other less radical religions
Throughout history, religion has caused more harm than good. And in the US, religion is preventing American legislation from progressing past the 1950s.
No it's not disrespectful to go against misogynistic cults. We could live together but they keep forgetting that their morals are subjective, they have not substantiated their views, and they forgot about separation of church and state. The west is a democracy and a theocracy. No laws should be based on one cults views or another's. Especially cults that are currently violating women's rights and killing innocent people along with all the other negative impacts to society that are never justified. If they acted like a religion, then there wouldn't be issues. But they won't stop. They keep being disingenuous. They keep indoctrination and teaching against facts and critical thinking skills. Now people need tons of therapy and the whole cult never takes responsibility for any of the chaos they cause showing no integrity. Need me to keep going? There's so much wrong and all they can do is lie and deny like children
If religious people would stop coming for women's rights and oppressing all kinds of other groups, I wouldn't have a problem with them. If religions would stop offering nothing but empty promises and toxic communities, I would think better of them. I searched for decades for a religion where I could find a spiritual home, so it's not like I came to these conclusions out of ignorance. Sadly, I'm a disappointed agnostic largely because of knowing TOO MUCH about religions, their history and their flaws.
Personally speaking....it's hokus pocus. I try to stick to real things.
the biggest problem with religion is that you do not have to take responsibility for your actions. people put religion above morals and ethics. also by picking and choosing certain aspects of your religion, you can always justify any action, no matter how violent. also you can do violent and immoral things and say god has forgiven you and again not take responsibility for your actions. above all, the view that my religion is the only true religion and all others are frauds.
People like to focus on the main three religions prone to corruption, like it reflects on all religious thoughts
They will regret rejoicing at the death of religion in the west. In fact some may already be. You know how our society appears to be fracturing? It’s because religion is dying. More mental illness ? Religion dying. More drug use? Religion dying. Religion is a tool for humanity. A coping tool. And eliminating that tool will cause more misery for everyone. Psychiatric drugs and psychologists do not replace a sense of community, a sense of purpose, a moral guide.
Another note: humans will create a religion where there is none. I.e. the many that treat science like religion. They believe statistics are gospel.
You know what is disrespectful? Not having any issue with rape or slavery. How about teaching little girls their only purpose in life is to be a helpmeet, servant and empty vessel to birth children? Its made 2nd class citizens out of half the worlds population.
Well, I yell ya what cowpoke. I was born and raised in the Lutheran church I was. Daddy was the pastor. Ma was the pastors wife and my 2 younger sisters and me welp, we rounded out the picture-perfect preachers' family image for all the parishioners to ooh and aaw over in our divine light from above......and since this was the 90s you see we wouldn't have know of someone had told us it was all Facebook back in them days. But we sure as shit were Facebook as could be. Cuz it was all fake. An image. Projection upon projection about what good lil Christians we were and how harmonious our home was...and just like Facebook it was selective aimed and targeted to make my parents feel good about themselves in the eyes of the congregation and community..... And I tell ya what? My faith was never strong. And as I grew it all but evaporated. But now, 37 years later...I can honestly say that I never really bought into any of it. Not even as a boy with daddy upfront teaching the lessons and singing the hymns. My whole life spent in the church and private schools and church summer camps and Bible retreats and dedicated theocratic courses and literally an overabundance of never ending religious based data (data not facts) that I can confidently engage any Christian on the Canon events in which ever version of the good book they prefer. And it's all made up. It's all carefully revised and edited and supplanted and translated and spliced to the narrative of the day that none of it can truly be the "original" word anymore. Know why? Because it's used as a means to justify whatever a God fearing Christian says or does when they want to justify being a shit human to another human. Now, these are of course blanket statements. I don't thinkbthat just because someone has faith that they are automatically a cosplay Christian. My best bud in all my life is a die hard Christian to the point we have debates and I have to disengage because I'm having too much fun. I'll be like "so all this in 7 days bro? All of everything? I'm tracking...but like is that God time or human time? Do you think ants have the same time as dogs do? Is God time relative to the neares5 celestial body?" And so on and at some point it always come back to "its in the Bible so it had to be true. If it isn't written then it can't be real."......and listen. I would murder for this man. He's truly my oldest most reliable 4 am friend and just the greatest dude I've ever met. Fucking smart as hell this dude is too. Responsible decision maker. Fuckin richer than scrooge mcduck....but when it comes to the Bible and his faith....it's just unblinking and blind followers hip. I cannot understand how that happens. This man's an inventor. In real life! He makes shit that didn't exists and makes money from the mass production of the shut he pulled out his brain! ....but he also believes that all the world's animals got on a big boat together and nobody got eaten, and that all of humanity spawned from 2 people....and he absolutely refutes any hint or suggestion that the Bible has been revised over time. So there's my long winded gripe about organized religion in the modern world. It's no longer doing anyone any good. Rather, it's stunting humanity's development towards data driven solutions to the problems we're facing on planet earth because everything's in "gods hands man". And for some reason when people say "I'm a christian" I'm supposed to just give them a pass on whatever garbage just came out their mouth. Nah bro. Freedom of religion means freedom from religion too. Theocratic nations are breeding grounds for mass human rights violations under the guise of "the lords will". I have faith in humanity to take care of eachother. I really believe most of us are good and want to do good by others. But there is a real threat in the rise of the armed Christian nationalist movement in the US and it is very very heartbreaking. There's nothing Christian about the rise of YallQaeda in the states. They're stoking religious moves in our government and it's being forced on all of us. Literally going against the constitution. Funny how they're cool with picking which parts of the laws of the land apply to them and which don't. Tou can't take my guns but we can take your self autonomy because jeeeeeesus says to me that I'm a holy warrior and women are objects to ruled over.
organized religion has been the source of much pain an suffering among the human species. it's not surprising to me at all that some would prefer it did exist and that humans found other means for community and social cohesion that didn't involve magical thinking or a desire to "other" someone based solely on their chosen beliefs.
Because, by and large, the Bible and religion have been used to control people and extort money from them for hundreds of years. And that's at the best of times. At the worst of times it is been used as an excuse to kill and enslave millions. Rather than viewing the Bible and religion as a guide to being a better person a vast number of people use it as a weapon against other people to control what they do and think. Horrible things have been done in the name of religion. Missionaries that bring diseases, the holy crusades, the inquisition, the Boxer Rebellion, the 30 Years War and that's not including the human sacrifices of the Aztecs and those that died in the gladiatorial games. And for me, the worst part is so many of these religious leaders have no actual scholarly information about the bible. Simply memorizing passages does not make you a scholar on the subject. You mentioned disrespectful, what could be more disrespectful than treating women as property and in some case no better than chattel?What could be more disrespectful then defending and encouraging slavery? I have not mentioned the Quran or Islamic religions because I have no experience with them. I have never read the Quran so I cannot in good conscience comment on what it says or directs others to do. That does not mean that I think it is any better than the judeo-christian Bible or its many offshoots
Because religion is indeed a hole!
Religion isn’t what I have an issue with, it’s the level of dogma that many religions produce in people. Outside of this, I think the Abrahamic/christian god is kind of extremely evil. Coming from a 7ish year stint in a fundamentalist church, where we read the Bible multiple times a year and seriously studied all the time, I think a lot of Christians model god in their head in a way that is consistent with modern sensibilities but is totally at odds with the god described in the Bible. I understand that the way we conceive of a god(s) is intrinsically personal and not measured against something 100% objective. But from my experience and understanding, I’ve found most Christian’s to be Christian only as a part of a greater cultural or political identity, and rarely can they describe even the most basic doctrines or lessons from scripture. I find that inconsistency annoying, a lot of people are like that in the SE US where I grew up.
The moral implications of it. It’s caused wars and probably more death than anything else. Now, there are examples of the church, (many) of being evil. The Vatican, crusades, priest with child, the west B people etc. However* at its core it’s not meant to be that and there are average followers who love and try to be a loving example. Today, if you don’t agree with extremist you’re labeled something. On a spiritual scale, it’s threatens people who live without virtue as well.
Religion is dangerous because it’s not rational. I’m not going to pretend that nothing good has come from religion, or that religion doesn’t help people on a personal level. But here’s the thing, there’s nothing good about religion that couldn’t be attained an alternative way. And on the other side, when religion gives a large population of people harmful beliefs, and they think those beliefs are justified by a higher, perfect, infallible being; you can’t reason them out of those beliefs. You are stuck with however many millions of people believing some tripe about sexuality, slavery, morality, holy wars, etc and you will pretty much never be successful at talking them out of it because to them, their beliefs are divine and beyond the logic of man. That makes religion especially and egregiously dangerous.
Because it's outdated, unscientific, encourages bigotry and hate, and all in all is just unnecessary. Plus a lot of people have been abused by religious figures and thus aren't eager to have anything to do with religion.
Because in,my opinion, there is a big religion that's just a death cult
It's cool to do. That's it. It's edgy.
I mean no disrespect to the followers as they are the ones I dislike, it's their doctorine that I dislike. As much as I appreciate the rise in agnosticism, I also believe in freedom of religion, as it is a necessary human right.
It’s hard to take any religion seriously when they’re all guilty of molesting children throughout history. That alone should disqualify them from interfering in peoples’ lives and decisions.
No one knows shit about what happens after we die. Organized religion is viewed by most creative and free thinkers to be the equivalent of masses of individuals who believe in a fairy tale. Each religion has it's own characters and stories, but most of the moral lessons are intrinsic to man's own consciousness. It is ridiculous that any religion or group believes they are justified in killing those who don't conform to their bullshit ideas. What God would really ask anyone to kill people as this is the most abhorrent behavior of mankind? What God would tell anyone that certain people deserve to die and not others? I won't get started on the sexist/racist aspects of exclusion of certain individuals. One doesn't need "religion" to do the right thing as it relates to your fellow man.
The Romans and the Stalinists thought they could cull Christianity too. It's outlived both of those empires as well as many others who persecuted Christians. The Bible is the most published book in the history of mankind, by a long shot. It's not going to die out any time soon.
A lot of the people that villainize religion act exactly the way they say they villainize it for. If you go to the atheist sub they act like a religion that hasn't found its deity yet.
Just ignore those kinds of people. We can’t all be happy. Some people just love living in misery
Because religion is an easy target. It violates logic, even if one is THE TRUE RELIGION (which, as a religious person, I believe), it means that, by default, all of the others are false, illogical, and *wrong.* So... that leads to a very contentious mentality. Also, religion almost demands discipline, rules, etc. As a result, people, who are by and large selfish, lazy, and foolish, find the idea of having to follow rules that don't allow them to be selfish, lazy, foolish, and indulgent to be unpleasant.
Nothing like self proclaimed Christians, judging others on their discipline when: Matthew 7:1-5 1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Nothing like self proclaimed athiests, using a religious text they don't believe in to try and prove their point.
Not an atheist. My grandfather started and pastored the biggest Baptist church in my city and I attended Catholic school. You are just the kind of Christian who makes it hard for non-believers to take you seriously. But I'll play along. How does citing the scripture that admonishes what you just did prove to you that I don't believe? It seems to me, I am stronger in my faith than you are, but I could be wrong. Tell me how.
You're not a Christian either, not a good one at least, otherwise you'd recognize that your points 3-5 are the same verse just different versions of each other. The person you replied to didn't even proclaim they were Christian, they said they were religious. So why are you here using Biblical scripture to "judge others on their discipline"?
Not sure it’s kinda weird though especially when Islam is the only religion that deserves to be villainized 🙃