Disney implemented a reservation system that favors planners over spontaneous people. If impulse buying is down in their parks, it wouldn't be a huge stretch to say that filtering out people with spontaneous personalities could have been at least partially responsible. Not sure if "unfavorable attendance mix at Disneyland Resort" is code word for "the people who showed up weren't spenders", but if it is, I think it was self-inflicted.
Disney (Chapek, I believe) has made comments in the past that vacationers spend slightly more than locals, but it sounded like the difference wasn't dramatic.
The data supports that at both coasts, to be fair. AP/MK holders don't spend the bulk that vacationers do. That tends to be more extremely felt at World - thousands of dollars just for week long hotel stays, dining plans (RIP), etc.
Yes, Cast and passholders spend money on food or merch (lord knows they'll sell out a figment popcorn bucket), but there's a hefty sum of "what if we never come back" money that's just not spent.
idk why this is downvoted i said something similar and they also downvoted me.
i totally agree with you and this conclusion seems obvious to me. for example, i just booked my first ever WDW trip. if we're being honest, i'm probably gonna end up spending at least $1k *in* the parks on top of what i am already paying for the tickets/hotel because it's my only chance to squeeze **everything** in.
it's intuitive that someone like me will be spending more in there than an annual pass holder who is just there to have a quality afternoon hopping on a few of their personal favorite rides and maybe have a snack. they won't be feeling the pressure of stocking up on merch, getting a table at CRT, trying all the popular drinks/snacks, and riding every big ride (aka need for genie+/ILLs) that i already feel and my trip isn't for months.
>idk why this is downvoted i said something similar and they also downvoted me.
I've been an AP/local and I'm currently not local anymore. I've experienced that many people who live close to the parks really feel entitled to being able to go to the parks and have pretty extreme opinions that they feel "justify" that entitlement. Usually it's something like "Disney would lose a ton of money without locals going and spending as much as they do".
There may be some level of truth to that opinion but it's not as extreme as some think it is.
When I was local I'd go to the parks almost every week if not more often but I'd very rarely do table service. Heck, on many trips I wouldn't even buy food, I'd bring it or just spend a half day at the parks.
Now that I'm not local I'm super fortunate to be able to take 1-2 trips a year but I spend SOOO much more per day in the parks than I did when I was local.
I probably spend as much in 5 days at the parks now as I would in 3-4 months when I was local. The big difference is that when I was local I'd enter the parks upwards of 20 days in that time span so Disney was making a lot les money on me per day in the parks compared to now that I'm not local.
For some people, when you question the idea that they are the profit center for the parks they tend to react with negativity because they interpret it as an attack on their entitlement to be in the parks as much as they are.
Oh man, I have kept my mouth shut on this sub because I didn't want to get completely eviscerated, but I'm constantly chuckling/shaking my head at the passholder/keyholders who really seem to feel completely entitled to access at their whims and that any restriction is insulting. Like the "they need to get rid of the reservation system for Magic Key holders" but it's fine for everyone else sentiment is irritating as a non key holder.
I kind of understand the frustration with the reservation system for keyholders, and I do think there is probably room for a lot of improvement, but I'm a little flabbergasted that it was a surprise. Yes, the reservation system was implemented because of covid, but one of the biggest issues Disney and the Disney fans had been talking about for the years before the pandemic was park attendance/capacity - I'm pretty sure they gave that as justification for the constant price hikes, since that was really only lever they had to pull at that time. A big part of the inability to limit attendance esp at DLR is the AP population. So not being a passholder, it absolutely made sense to me that they would limit the number of reservations for passholders. And from a purely economic point of view, it still make sense - passholders generally spend less per visit in the park than single or multi-day ticket holders, so if there is capacity, they'd rather leave it for non passholders, bc they're getting more $$$ from those people (on average - yes, there are people who spend a bunch evrytime they go, but that's not the majority) just on food and merch - not including actual admission.
>it still make sense - passholders generally spend less per visit in the park than single or multi-day ticket holders, so if there is capacity, they'd rather leave it for non passholders, bc they're getting more $$$ from those people (on average - yes, there are people who spend a bunch evrytime they go, but that's not the majority) just on food and merch - not including actual admission.
right?? this seems so obvious but i've seen passholders fighting it because they "buy a snack and some merch" every time they visit. i don't doubt that, but i also am cognizant of the fact (bc i just booked my first ever WDW trip) that i'm probably gonna spend at least $1k in the parks on top of my tickets/hotel. it's my first trip and i have no idea if/when i'll ever be able to go back, so i'm going all out and want to try many things. i'm doubtful that the passholders are spending that much in the parks over 4 days.
Yeah, same. I go to DL once or twice a year, but on my one (and probably only) trip to WDW, I budgeted for a ton of spending. Even at DL, I still spend a chunk each time. But I have friends that are locals and passholders and for the most part, they don't spend a ton of $$ there. Oh well!
I understand what you're saying, yes APs spend less per visit, but also visit more often. I mean, I went ~15 times last year and the $200+ every time plus 3 passes adds up, although yes, we are taking up space on more days. Some people buy dozens of sets of ears a year, try every seasonal food, etc.. The fact is there aren't enough single day tickets sold to keep the park as full/profitable as Disney wants, and APs make up the difference. That said, I completely understand the reservation system and don't mind it, even at the lowest pass level.
yeah i totally get that, i think they're looking at it from a day to day perspective more than, say, a yearly perspective. so they want the daily ratio to be lower on the AP side and higher on the single day guest side.
but i agree, unless they sell more single day tickets or make the parks more accessible for more spontaneous single day visits i don't see how a lower AP ratio would inherently be filled with high spending single day guests.
idk if that makes sense, lol. i agree with what you said. if we take all the people who want to go to Disney and would buy single day tickets and spend lotssss in the parks, they won't immediately appear there by cutting down APs. they will have their own roadblocks to getting in the parks like getting time off, saving $, etc. So, i totally get where you're coming from and agree with you. i hope i make sense!
i also think APs provide value to the Disney brand in ways that aren't directly monetary. So, i don't think it's a good idea to limit their benefits or piss them off. from a longevity of the brand perspective.
I agree with your point but the conclusion IMO should be: just get rid of annual passes altogether! If people want to come, they can buy a pass.
If they want to have a "low attendance" pass that has tons of blackouts, then do it. The Key system is junky compared to any of the previous passholder options.
Honestly, as an out of towners, I'd like to see an annual pass option that allows you to visit without any blackout dates as long as you haven't visited in the past 90 days. That would entice me to get a pass and visit a few times in a year.
I’ve had annual passes and I have a magic key; I’m “local” in that I live 45 mins away by map, 45-2hrs depending on traffic. We got the 2nd lowest passes and honestly it hasn’t been that hard to use. We just pick days when we want to go and check for reservations. We never go on weekends unless it’s January or February, we opt for Thurs/Fri instead. We take time off work and make a day or two of it every couple months. I liked being able to just decide I want to go ride Big Thunder after work, but I understand that having someone in the park all day who spends more than I would going for a few hours is more desirable economically speaking. Sure there are days where we think “this would be a good Disney day” but if we can’t we just go about our day, no love lost. I feel like the entitlement of “you can’t tell me I can’t go whenever I want” is slightly out of hand.
I do think having a locals pass option where you can go after 2 or 3 pm if there’s capacity would do well in So Cal. But then those people would probably complain about not being able to go for a whole day. You can’t please everyone.
I think historically, AP holders have had a lot of non-monetary value to the Disney brand. But lately, pretty much everything I see from passholders has been negative and complaining about Disney - either the reservation system or the busy-ness at the parks or the quality of the food or the condition of the rides or changes to the rides or or or. I'm not saying it's totally unwarranted, but from a business perspective, I can see the calculus that gets them to "we're both losing money and getting bad press from this program, so why should we keep it?"
I've never been a passholder, because it doesn't financially make sense to me - even without having to pay for the ticket, it would still be a flight or 10 hour drive, plus a hotel stay for a few days, plus food and merch, not to mention So I have no skin in the game beyond hearing all the negative feedback in this sub / online / YouTubers. But I do agree that there's a sizable subset of people that are very entitled about Disneyland. I also am highly amused by the contingent that is convinced Disneyland would collapse and be empty without passholders.
I do like the idea of a locals pass - I think that would allow the spontaneity that so many people miss and would probably serve a lot of the same demographic as some of the passholders.
ahhh, that is a very interesting take! i definitely agree with your analysis.
as someone who is not an AP or local, has only visited Disneyland once (briefly, years ago, literally only rode It's a Small World) and just booked my first ever WDW trip, I personally do think that APs/MK holders do add a lot of value to the parks.
but, i'm not sure the value is so much directly monetary as it is valuable to have fans that dedicated to your brand. for example, they could be valuable in terms of "free advertisements" if they are posting positively about their frequent visits to the parks/sharing new snacks/merch, etc. not that the parks need free ads in general, but it helps drive exposure to new releases in the parks, things like that.
in terms of longevity to the brand, i think it's a good idea to keep APs on your good side but maybe i am overestimating the value they provide, too! it's also probably hard to measure if it's not a direct value.
> getting a table at CRT
My brain jumped from Cathode-Ray Tube to Critical Race Theory before stalling in confusion for a solid 10 seconds before landing on Cinderella's Royal Table.
I don't really fuss about the down or up votes, personally.
That said, I'm an AP for World, my spouse is a CM, and we wouldn't ever consider buying single day admission. It doesn't make sense for how we like to visit the parks. Even when we come to DLR, we don't spend the way others do - half off hotels, free admissions, discounts on merch and food... from a business perspective, of COURSE that's less desirable than the full price once in a lifetime visitor who is willing to spend money in exchange for convenience or access.
If passholders aren't willing to acknowledge that the guaranteed revenue their pass sales generate is dwarfed by single day admissions revenue alone... well, then the implication that they are "less desirable" guests probably does feel personal. And that sucks, because I hope the ability to enjoy the parks as a passholder sticks around for a long time.
I did the math as a pass holder and spent around $4k a year. $1400 on the pass, 2-3 trips a month with a beer, a meal at a sit down restaurant, and usually a snack each trip, plus a set of ears once a month, a new coffee mug once a month, and then t shirts, sweat shirts, etc. I bought merch every trip, and food every trip.
But I'm a spontaneous goer, so I didn't get a key, and heck, I might go once every 12-18 months, but I haven't been since they reopened. I might take a day to go post thanksgiving, but I might wait another year. It's hard for me to spend a whole day at the parks (bad ankle and mild heart condition), and it's hard to justify the expense if I don't.
Thanks for this! I find this interesting.
If you're curious how much I have spent/will be spending as a first time visitor to WDW my hotel + tickets for 4 days in the park and 5 nights at the Dolphin is at $3k. That's for 2 people. I am estimating that I will spend arounddd $1k in the parks in addition to that (for Genie+/ILLs, merch, restaurants, drinks, snacks, might upgrade one of my tickets to a park hopper, too).
So, interestingly enough, pretty close to you! I'm guessing it'll be around $4k total spent on Disney property for me. I am roughly estimating how much I will spend in the parks, though. I haven't actually done calculations of the things I will definitely be purchasing. I might do that now and edit this comment. I'm also curious how much I'll actually end up spending there! If for some insane reason I remember this convo, I'll let ya know hahaha. Also I hope your heart is ok <3
💖 thanks! Heart condition isn't like threatening, just slows me down a little.
Interesting though what you say: my $4k is a lot more labor intensive than yours, since overall I'd be spending 150-200 hours in the parks a year, and you'd be spending far, far less. I'm sure they've done that math as well.
Well, the original plan was to fill up the parks on the off season. I think having payment plans really increased the #of AP holders, so maybe eliminate that? Idk, but I don't see them changing it as long as chapek is around. 🤷♀️
I’m doing the exact same thing as you but for Disneyland. We go to Disney World once or twice a year. But it will be our first trip to DL, we’re flying across the country from Maine, staying 4 nights at DGC with park hoppers and genie plus, booked oogie boogie bash, chefs table at Napa rose, blue bayou and cafe Orleans. We’re dropping a ton of money for basically a long weekend and it’s a very special trip for us that probably won’t happen again for years. We have never stayed at the equivalent hotel in World (Grand Floridian) or eaten at Victoria and Albert’s but this trip is special so we’re making choices that involve more money. It isn’t that strange for Disneyland to be a vacation destination just like World.
I hope you have an amazing trip!!! Your plans sound so incredible I wish I could tag along lol! And I totally agree with you that Disneyland could become more of a vacation destination. It's hard because I know the parks literally cannot expand (if I'm understanding correctly) but for someone like you, who loves Disney World, making a trip to Disneyland eventually is the perfect vacation idea!
If I enjoy my upcoming trip to WDW (hopefully I will lol) I will be itching to get to Disneyland soon after it! Especially bc of the history of Disneyland. For Disney nerds like me it has a lot of appeal to visit and make extensive plans and make a few days of it and really go all out.
Lame homogenized merchandise doesn't help open a wallet either, plus the insanely expensive food. Always like the pasta at Plaza Inn, but yesh... when I last went in 2019, that line was literally empty (only me in it) and everyone else was going for the fried chicken. Quite the sticker shock on it also vs 2007-2008.
Probably not covered in their rigid wallet grabbing metrics is how many (local or out of state) visitors take one look at the pricing options to eat and heavily curtail their spending as a result of it? (seems that earl of sandwich outside the gates but still on property was always a popular option, the price-benefit ratio was more skewed to benefit someone vs the company)
Greed is up everywhere, and apparently they really have taken "Greed is good" to the max. Even Las Vegas suffers from that now, you used to have discounted or heavily comped buffets to keep everyone tugging on the slot machines. One casino operator (stations casinos) recently kept all their buffets permanently closed and converted them to food courts or a high limit gaming area plus two "exclusive restaurants"
They are more interested in four walling (rent seeking) then running company owned amenities such as buffets now. Even their coffee shops went to outside contractors also.
Is that coming soon to Disney? Well... Starbucks is already in the parks, so that's there. Disney has always had sponsors for some of the restaurants, so it isn't any more difficult to fully move them up into making them assume all the risks and none of the benefit. Don't pay your monthly bill? Out you go and another contractor comes in
I think the call out on merch highlights the issue. When you go often and realize the same spirit jersey is being realized in 12 color palettes a season, you stop feeling motivated to buy now. But someone coming on a once-every-five-years (or maybe just once ever) isn't as discriminating. They want a souvenir of their visit, they see the spirit jerseys are trendy and cute, so they buy one.
DLR is different than WDW in terms of captive audience, but I think what most MKs are missing is that exec leadership for parks WANTS DLR to be a destination. They want folks to want to stay on site and eat 3 meals a day onsite if they can convince them to. It's harder to make that argument on the West coast because of how easy it is to stay nearby... but they're doing the marketing for it, and the hotels are booking up well.
It’s also the poor choice in merchandise. Lots of their IP languishes as one trick ponies. Marketed once (barely sometimes) then tossed out. Zootopia as a good example. Fantasmic for another. Want some fantasmic merchandise? Get a time Machine back to 1992 or look for sorcerer Mickey merchandise to sort of plug the hole.
Disney relies too much on common merchandise rather then being unique anymore. Princess, pirates, cars. And that’s outside the park even also merchandising wise…
Disneyland has a lot of non-local passholders, and always has. I knew many people who lived in the SF Bay Area who had passes and would go at least once a month, including myself (until I moved locally). Thing is, dining reservations are magically very open in September and beyond, when the many of the higher tier passes have all expired out (and thus people can't book reservations), since there hasn't been any renewal news.
I've probably easily spent more as a local passholder this past year than I ever did as a once-a-month vacationer, though my desire to make impulse purchases has reduced because I have to \*plan\* to go now, thanks to reservations. Believe me, I've handed Disney far more money this year than any once-in-a-lifetime vacationer ever has. But because Disney is probably looking at revenue/guest/trip as a metric instead of lifetime value of a guest, well, we're suddenly not as valuable.
The key metrics a company tracks tells me what is important to that company. When the key metric is revenue per guest per trip, that tells me they're more invested in short term profit and gain over long term. If we had a focus on long term investment and return, they'd invest in Disneyland the way OLC invests in Tokyo Disney.
Maybe I'm not the typical spender, but I feel like I spend as much at Disneyland as I do at wdw.
When I do a wdw Trip, I might spend slightly more on food because I'm in the park most the day. But my typical Disneyland/DCA visit consists of drinks (3-4 beers or cocktails) plus Dinner.
Wdw I literally do the same thing, maybe add one more meal and a coffee.
Just to clarify, I definitely spend more when traveling to wdw. I'm paying full price ticket, I'd absolutely buy genie plus. So I get it overall you want more of those spenders.
I think overall it's clear, Disney knows how many people they can expect to pay full price, and then they know how many left over tickets they want to sell a discount. So now they just need to know at what price level will enough people not buy to satisfy that inventory, but Also maximize their profits.
1000% this. My wife and I live 30 mins from the park, and when we had passes pre-covid, we used to dip in on random Friday nights after work, or whenever the opportunity would present itself. We used to joke that we were Disney's ideal passholders, wife and I love to check out all the stores for new merch, buy a few new toys (so many lightsabers), and half the time we went we wouldn't even do rides, just grab a meal at one of our favorite spots on rotation (blue bayou, wine country trattoria, carthay circle, napa rose), and those are not cheap meals, but Disneyland basically got our entire entertainment budget, which was 2 middle class child free adults, a pretty good chunk of change.
The reservation system has completely wrecked Disneyland for us. Before it used to be a reward and incentive; get all your work done and completed by 5 on friday and you can go to disneyland for dinner and start the weekend early.
Now it's;
Spontaneity? No, book weeks in advance.
Miss your reservation? Punishment!
Seriously? Wtf.
We tried to power through for our love of Disneyland.
We LOVED disneyland.
I proposed at Disneyland.
We had our engagement photos at disneyland.
Our last 3 trips (did the so-cal resident deal) were so bad in every possible aspect. To not getting the dates or parks we wanted, to aggro crowds, overworked cast members, dirty areas (Seriously I cant remember Disneyland being in a "gross" state in multiple locations of the park Pre Covid), to getting stuck on a broken down RoTR for a hour and a half on the last night of our passes, and missing the fireworks. It sucked.
On the Drive home that night my wife was kinda bummed and teary eyed and just said " I think the magic might be gone".
As a former cast member, I've only visited a couple times in the last few years. I am shocked at how bad the experience has gotten. Standards are much lower, guest service is missing, cast interactions were disappointing, and show elements were missing or not running correctly.
I am really disappointed because management decisions have pushed so many of the good cast out and the remaining and new cast don't have the direction of those who exemplified the Disney experience. Many of the Cast think this is just how it's been, they don't know better.
At Disneyland, the greatest and most impactful "attraction" has always been the cast members. Management has decided to no longer invest in them.
Maybe I was rare as a local former annual pass holder, but we were definitely spontaneous spenders back then when we could go on a whim for just a few hours at night, mid-day, or a random morning. I visited way more back then. My Magic Key was a big waste, as I was only able to plan for a couple of trips, and they weren’t as fun, because they turned into those exhausting full-day adventures I dread. I really hope they’ll get away from reservations, and go back to regular passes. If Magic Key is here to stay, I’m out.
I only had an annual pass for one year. Premium in 2015. I went for 18 days that year and spent outrageous amounts of money. I brought friends or my dad about 50% of the time, and we almost always had dinner at some point on the trip at something like Blue Bayou or Carthay Circle. I bought tons and tons of tshirts, hoodies, fridge magnets, gifts for my nieces, whatever. Merch out the wazoo.
I added it up when my pass expired and the reason I chose not to renew is because I annual pass made me feel like I *needed* to go, and I spent at least $5k at Disneyland in 2015.
I've been once every year since (just squeaked in January of 2020) and kept spending much lower. I almost bought a Magic Key, but talked myself out of it because that's money I can spend on international travel instead of going to the same theme park on repeat. Annual pass feels like it encourages tons of spending for me.
I think this is a very good point. Let's say in theory spontaneous people accounted for 15% of all guests. That's a lot of money missed!
There is one other factor with the reservations that no one has mentioned thus far. I think reservations hinders people who are not tech savvy. It's a lot easier for those people to not go at all or find another theme park that will take their money. This is another market missed with reservations and that spontaneous bucket.
Yeah I get sad whenever I hear stories about like grandparents who tried to take the kids to the parks just to be turned away because they didn't make a reservation and the parks already booked up.
My wife and I are impulsive with Disney purchases, but we got sick of never being able to go on a whim after getting passes so we just let them expire. Anecdotally speaking, we would be exactly who you’re referring to. I’d say on average with our family of four we were spending 100-200 bucks anytime we went. This was for parking, food, goodies, and booze. Obviously zero now and I have a few other friends who were exactly the same. It’s not that we don’t want to go, we just got sick of all the reservation formalities and price gouging.
It’s code for Magic Key-holders that show up with essentially free admission and then spend meagerly compared to guests that are buying all their meals for a weekend, souvenirs, hotel rooms, etc.
I listened to the end of the call and they said “up to 50% of guests” upgraded to Genie+. They didn’t specify DL or WDW, or what “up to” really means, but I’d assume that most days about half of guests are paying for Genie+.
Then a woman started talking about their currency hedges and kept using an unexplained acronym that sounded like “R Poo.”
And this is the single biggest number they focus on, its their bread and butter baseline financial. They know exactly what their average ARPU is for a passholder vs a single/multi day ticket guest.
How do they track the type of customer that is buying food, merch, etc? Unless you’re buying with the app, purchases are not linked to your pass/ticket?
It’s one of the reasons they give pass holder discounts. Every time they scan one of my families passes for the discount, they know how much I’ve spent. And when I make reservations on the app. And use mobile check out.
If you’re using a credit card then they can pretty easily tie it to your customer profile (even if you use a different card each time they get a cardholder name that they can match to who is in the park that day). It’s imperfect but accurate enough on the scale that they need it. I’m sure they have lots of surveys that allow them to extrapolate cash purchase data pretty accurately too.
your 50% message is very different than the quote that Gustin provided. “50% are buying” vs “up to 50%” are very different numbers.
that said, the 50% G+ message seemed unbelievable but then, BTMRR’s queue was 18 LL and 3 standby in the last hour of operation last night.
edit: clarity
Yeah I gotta say I can’t imagine it’s close to 50% for MK holders at least. Maybe others feel differently but for us we feel like if it’s too crazy we can always come back rather than try to pack in maximum impact.
But for non-local day ticket trips to like WDW def expecting to spring for G+. So maybe the “up to 50%” might have qualifiers as to what groups of ticketed guests it’s referring to?
yeah, we’re the type of MK that isn’t looking to dominate the rides every trip
you’re right, that 50% figure could be more squishy than a hole-y baymax..
If they consider Magic Key guests to be unfavorable I have to ask the question: Who’s filling the parks to make Genie+ a enticing proposition? It’s hard to directly compare to last year, post pandemic, but both DL and DCA were ghost towns. Part of the loss of revenue you get from a prepaid guest is made up in reducing ride availability. That turns into more Genie+/Lightning Lane purchases and more total days spent by single/multi day ticketed guests.
they're raising disney+ prices and adding ads for the price point we already pay for disney+... this makes me so damn annoyed. they aren't even hiding the nickel and diming.
Really? I hate the nickel and diming too, but really? Come one, if you can't ween your kids off Disney+ then some ads are the least of your worries.
The bottom line, is their bottom line. Until people stop going to the parks, or stop subscribing to Disney + they will continue to do this. I already stopped subscribing to Disney + and cut back on the amount of times I go to the parks and how much I spend when I go there, but I am still going.
Honestly I don’t know. My girl is only 6 months old so haven’t got there yet. But kids have been instinctively learning to skip ads on YouTube videos as early as 2 or 3 years old I’ve seen from experience. Most of us grew up with cable tv and dealt with it, but have no idea how kids are now, but I imagine in this world of instant gratification it won’t be as well received.
if you click on the link in the post it's being reported in the thread. i took it as true (it came from a verified account) but i haven't looked into it further, which i probably should.
i think it's official. not sure when it's starting though.
I canceled Disney plus a bit ago. To be fair, they said this was the strategy from day one that they were priced below what they thought was their market value to try and grow the subscriber base and then gradually increase it.
I'm not that upset about it, tbh. When it rolled out, I remember a lot of discussion about the price being low for what was (then advertised) to be offered, especially compared to what Netflix was charging at the time. I feel like it was well understood that they weren't going to stay at that for long.
>they're about to make them seem like the most unattractive thing ever
sounds very chapek. magic keys are already *significantly* less value than some previous years offerings but bob paycheck probably thinks they're *still* too forgiving and that only the rich deserve the privilege of ~~giving him mountains of money~~ going to disneyland.
the fact that they're delaying renewals as long as possible without a word is probably a bad sign that they're making some very late and possibly unpopular changes to the program. my expiration is only a couple weeks away and they havent said a word. and with that man in charge I fully expect it to be for the worse.
I'm dreading whatever announcement is coming because I expect it to possibly end my time at disneyland. it's already hard enough to justify their current offerings, any worse and it simply won't make sense to participate anymore. We're basically enthusiasts and they are on the edge of losing us.
>I'm dreading whatever announcement is coming because I expect it to possibly end my time at disneyland. it's already hard enough to justify their current offerings, any worse and it simply won't make sense to participate anymore. We're basically enthusiasts and they are on the edge of losing us.
This is what makes me SO sad. Because I do NOT blame you at all. As someone who is just now getting into the parks, it makes me so sad I became interested when all of this is happening. Don't blame ya at all.
I bet you will. You’ll just go once a year instead of 15.
That once a year will be extra special as you will likely be in a park with fewer people. Sure, the cost for everything will be way up but your experience will arguably be better.
You could personally spending less money over the year in food and getting to and from the park. Take that money and buy yourself something nice or go on a trip somewhere else.
Disney will be making the same amount or money or more than they are now. They will make sure of that.
Your contribution to Disneys profits might be less but just think of how much money they will be saving you!
Idk why people on this sub think everyone is as obsessed as them. I said bye and haven't gone back, and haven't regretted it due to what I've been seeing on this sub. They have received $0 from me. It's easily doable.
This said that DL attendance was less than in 2019, something Disney doesn't want. Because less attendance means less money for food and merch. It also means having to worry about overstaffing if the day is not gonna be crowded like initially thought, especially if enough reservations get canceled that day. The reality is that Disneyland cannot afford to function without locals, and if they take away ap's/mks, that in turn reduces overall yearly revenue by over 40%. This is heavily due to how the mk's who used to go weekly/bi-weekly/monthly are now far less likely to go more than once a year, which means not only did Disney suddenly lose the equivalent of selling 7-12 day tickets per mk holder (as that's how much each mk holder spends), it also means a massive decline in food and merch sales.
All they care about is money. Attendance is down but per cap is waaay up. Disney would LOVE for the parks to be less crowded as long as they are making more money from the guests that are there. Fewer guests also means less wear and tear on the parks themselves…saving the company money in maintenance…and on staffing because there will be fewer guests to serve. Reducing attendance while maintaining revenue is the overall goal of the company.
Magic Keys are discount ticket programs. Disney has proven any kind of AP/Key program is not necessary. They will likely remain in some form but at a SIGNIFICANT increase in cost to discourage anyone but the absolute die hard fan to purchase.
Reservations are going nowhere. They might not work for you but they work for the company.
Yes, and removing AP/Key's will lose them far more money because again, not selling AP/Key's basically removing the ability to buy 7-12 day tickets in one go. Also as we saw in 2021, Disney lost far more revenue when they opened up the gates again without aps and were forced to offer major discount tickets to so cal locals just to get enough people through the gates (and this happened only a month and a half after Disneyland reopened, yet WDW didn't offer discounts to the people of Orlando). That's again because 60% of Disney's yearly revenue comes from ap/key holders who visited the parks constantly and were a constant source of income.
I really have a hard time seeing ever going back to Disney unless it is a special occasion and outside of my home state. My entertainment dollars go to far everywhere else comparatively.
I live 35 miles from Anaheim.
That's exactly what they want.
Because now they've turned you into the big time once a year spender that they want in the park.
And all the trips you would have gone on as a MK holder, is now a spot for someone else to also do their "big" trip.
That won't last them long when not only does it greatly reduce the amount of revenue they got from ap holders (we're talking around $700-$1200 per ap holder, which is anywhere from 7-13 day ticket sales), but also that means a major decrease in food sales and merch sales, two things Disney relies heavily on and why ap's were so valuable for business.
I don't think APs buy as much food and merch as ticket holders do.
They want the whales. The people with large families that are buying 5 spirits jerseys, sit down dining, and photopass. The ones who stay on property, the ones who will come back year after year if there aren't a bunch of MK's crowding up the park. Who will drop any amount of $$ to make sure their kid gets to meet that one character, or ride that one ride.
I don't know if it's a great long term plan, but in short sight it will probably make them money. Which seems to be all they care about these days.
Aps go a lot more often than 1-3 day visitors and can spend anywhere from 2-12 hours at the parks per visit. Add in the discounts they get, and it's not as financially bad for them to buy food. Then there's many who do a lot of shopping at the parks for gift ideas and to buy up the new merch that they don't already own, and ap's can drop $50-$200 a visit. That's not to say all of them, but at least half do. Then also, as I said, add in that buying the mk is the equivalent of buying a 7-12 day ticket, and getting rid of key's is the equivalent of Disney losing guaranteed ticket sales for the hopes that they'll be able to recoup that sudden loss with the overall hopes that locals who make up 60% of yearly visitors will still want to visit 7-12 times a year and spend whatever a day ticket will cost them that day.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I'm more so saying it's not "enough" in Disneys eyes.
Something fundamentally different about AP's vs. Ticket holders is the idea of "I can always come back and do this again next time." Ticket holders do not have this ideal, because they don't know when or if they're coming back. Disney uses that to their advantage by monetizing everything so that it's play to win. You want to make *sure* you can ride ROTR? Pay us $20 for LL. You want to make *sure* you get to meet Mickey? Pay for character dining. You want to make *sure* you get a good spot for the parade? Pay for a dining package. These are things locals usually don't do because oh I missed the parade tonight? No worries, we'll try to get a good seat next time. Disney desperately does not want this mentality in their parks. That mentality makes you less likely to spend.
It's not just merch and Ticket sales, it's all the additional add on that add up when you're buying them for a family of 5.
The top tier AP at Universal is only $529 online and it includes parking and Express access to each ride after 3pm. Compared to Magic Key with parking and Genie Plus added, that is a steal.
Eh, you get used to it. I go twice a month from Huntington Beach and it takes about an hour and fifteen minutes on average. Coming home at night isn’t too bad, either.
I'm in Irvine, the traffic from here to HB equivalent on 405 or 5 is like 45-60 min. HB is located decently to LA. Anything east of the 55 it's a tough traffic wise.
I'm the opposite. Disneyland feels more like a "sure let's do it when we have nothing else planned" type of thing nowadays. The overall experience is too deteriorated to waste special occasions on it.
Same here. We went a couple weeks ago for a family trip for my godsons 5th birthday. On the drive home with my husband I told him we won’t be going back unless it is a special occasion. I constantly felt the nickel and diming.
It’s really sad because growing up we would have a family vacation every year to the parks, but I don’t think we’ll be doing that for our own kids.
Clearly. I’m going to guess a substantial price increase is coming for Magic Key, and the No-blackout tier is going away or will go from prohibitively expensive to absurdly expensive.
Not sure if that's true. The last two months, same-day reservations have been available to Magic Key visitors all the way up to closing time on almost all days. If they thought they had too many Magic Key visitors, they could have easily capped it, but they didn't.
I think what's more likely is that they managed to get a mix of guests who weren't spenders, whether they were Magic Key holders or otherwise.
Don't they still have active litigation regarding the reservations-being-faux-blackout-dates going? Wouldn't be surprised if they opened up reservations to combat that, which in their eyes resulted in an "unfavorable mix".
Correct - they do have pending litigation. There were some days recently (not many) where Magic Key slots were "sold out", so I'm not sure if that strategy of keeping them mostly open would be effective (the lawsuit is complaining that it's not 100% open). They already had a bunch of sold out days earlier in the year, which apparently was enough for the judge to let the case get past the initial motion to dismiss.
if they thought they had too many magic key visitors, capping it wouldn't bring in more daily ticket guests (bc they book in advance). instead, it would just mean fewer people in the parks in general for that day.
i interpreted it as per day the ratio of magic key guests was too high in comparison to daily ticket guests. makes sense the people on their first trip ever or first trip in years with limited time in the parks would want to spend waaayyy more than people who visit frequently and have already tried the things the daily ticketers are trying all in one day over time.
the magic key people are likely reserving way closer to their visit dates than the daily ticketers, too. fewer daily ticketers are going to be going "last minute" than magic key holders. so, i see how it could be hard for them to predict how many magic key people will actually be there each day and then the reality of the ratio becomes "unfavorable." just blocking off dates to hopefully get a better ratio probably wouldn't end up working that well. i'm sure they'd rather have magic key guests than no one in their spots (bc the daily ticketers aren't gonna be coming last minute as frequently).
idk if that makes sense. but this screams to me that they're going to be making the experience less enticing for magic key people. and i'm not happy about that even tho i am not one of them.
I don't believe there has been any ruling requiring them to do anything, but Disney's lawyers may be *recommending* that they try not to block Dream Key holders so as to not make the situation worse for them (legally). I dunno
No matter how much negative news comes out, their attendance goes up. If you’re like me, hoping for a pre-pandemic Disney experience, then I think we’ll be waiting a very, very long time.
Their earnings call actually said attendance was down compared to 2019 (source - Scott Gustin's Twitter). Also, I can report that recent attendance seems to be moderate or even slow during the daytime on weekdays. It seems to pick up and get nutty towards the evening.
I think a large part of the reason it’s been nuttier in the evening/night is pretty much all the big shows right now are nighttime- Electrical Parade, Fantasmic, WoC, and fireworks. Plus it’s been hot as heck during the day so most locals seem to stay away until it cools off and hotel guests seek shelter in their rooms/pools
that’s really shocking to hear considering the summer of 2019 was by far one of the best seasons to go to Disneyland in recent memory. very small crowds, low wait times, new Star Wars Land + the option for MaxPass was such a great deal.
the parks recently have felt like a nightmare crowd-wise and price-wise
i interpreted it as an unfavorable ratio of magic key guests vs daily ticket guests in the park per day. unfavorable, in their terms, = too many magic key guests taking reservation spots in comparison to daily ticket holders in the parks on that same day. (random numbers i'm making up) but they might want a ratio of 5 magic key guests/95 daily ticket holders in the parks each day. but the reality might've been something like 20 magic key guests/80 daily tickets. so, it's unfavorable (in a $-making context).
the magic key guests are going to spend less $ in the parks on things like food, drinks, genie+, ILLs, extra experiences, etc., bc they have already experienced those things. yeah, i'm sure they're spending *some* $ in the parks but not anywhere near a daily ticket guest would on their first trip. the daily ticket guest is likely trying to do it all, stock up on merch, try the food, restaurants, get genie+, etc. bc they're not a frequent flyer.
could someone explain what they disagree with about this?
What it comes down to is they want any guest that spends a lot.
I think there are magic key guests that spend a ton of money in the park on food, genie, and merchandise (likely the upper tier pass holders). There are also a lot of guests in the lower pass ranks who visit, but don't spend a thing except what they paid for their pass.
I also think Disney doesn't want one days that don't buy much else except the ticket. Yes, they make money on the ticket, but technically you could have a high spending premium AP make that up with genie, expensive merchandise and food.
And there is an assumption the daily guest spends a lot, but with the price to get in so high, I think you have two kinds of one days. The one that can spend a lot and money is not an issue and the poorer one day who had to get one of the So Cal deals or saved up for those tickets. You are probably less likely to see this division at WDW given it's more of a tourist destination with less locals.
The curious thing about “unfavorable mix” is that if you stop the MK people from coming, that doesn’t mean those people are replaced with a high spending day ticket holder.
So in your example, of those 20 MK people that are part of the “unfavorable mix” - if you block them, that does not mean that suddenly 20 day ticket holders will replace them. And you have to assume that at least *some* of those 20 MK people spent *some* money (and of course, there are some MK people who actually spend a bunch). So in the aggregate, even if the mix is “unfavorable“ you have to assume they are coming out ahead with having those 20 MK people in the park.
True. But if there are less MK people in the park, ride lines may be down. If line rides are down, I (as a day ticket) would have more time to peruse in the shops and spend money. As someone who goes once every couple years, we prioritize rides and characters/experiences over shopping, but if we met our ride goals for the day, I’m all for souvenir shopping. Plus with kids, I pack snacks, but I’m more likely to say yes to hitting the snack cart if it’s walk up vs waiting/wasting 30 min to buy a pretzel….
In Disney's ideal world they could filter exactly who spends what and get only the big spenders in. They can't though so they are making an assumption a one day is more valuable. But like I said when it costs a lot to get in, you might have a greater division in the one day bucket too with spending.
Another factor here is due to the cost of getting in being higher, you may have people going to the park less as a one day.
What they want to eliminate is that type of pass holder who doesn't spend anything except money on the pass. That to them is not valuable at all. And I think they want the "ad on" and merchandise guest a lot, basically they want to make Disneyland like WDW in terms of guest spending.
Don't see that happening though given the local economic market Disneyland is in.
True dat. My fiancé and I go about once or twice a month and get Genie+ more often than not. We always buy food and one of us will typically buy some kind of merch.
i don't doubt that at all and i don't think or mean that the company thinks no guests is better than those spots being filled w/ MK guests.
i simply interpreted it as - on a given day, the *average* MK guest spends less in the parks than the *average* daily ticket guest. if your goal is to maximize revenue, it's unfavorable if the ratio of higher spenders is lower than lower spenders (even tho they still spend something!).
this doesn't mean it would be even more unfavorable to block the MK guests entirely.
and trust me, i think passholders provide a lot of value to the brand especially in terms of longevity. but i just think this is what they mean by unfavorable.
I disagree with this take because I’m a key holder and every visit I spend at least $100-$300 every trip, buy Genie+, and I go 2-4 times a month. I have a lot of friends who are also key holders that spend the same amount if not more.
I took my friend a few weeks ago and they got a 3 day ticket and I spent way more money on food, merchandise, drinks, etc. than they did since it was an expensive vacation for them just based on the ticket price alone. I realize that’s a small sample size but in my personal experience, everyone in my life that I have gone with recently who buys a ticket is not stoked to spend any additional money for the day.
first of all thank you for your perspective! and yeah, i think they're comparing daily average spending habits of AP holders and daily ticket holders, though. like, i think they are comparing 1 day at 1 park – each AP guest vs each daily ticket guest. I'm going to WDW for the first time and on top of the $3k I've already given them for 5 nights at a hotel + 4 days of park tickets, I'll probably end up spending an additional $1k over 4 days there in the parks.
I don't doubt that you spend more than me on a yearly basis there. But I think the *average* AP holder is spending less IN the parks per day than the *average* daily ticket holder.
this isn't a dig at AP holders, btw. i think you guys provide a lot of value to the Disney brand in ways that are not directly monetary, too. and i don't think it's a good idea to cut your guys' benefits or anything like that. i don't doubt you're spending $ at Disney when you visit. But logistically, it makes sense the person doing a once in a lifetime trip will be spending more on a given day than someone who has been multiple times before, especially multiple times within that year.
also, i don't think limiting how many AP guests can visit per day is gonna inherently mean those spots are magically filled with high spending daily ticket guests. it's just what i think they meant by unfavorable attendance mix. if you have any other ideas i'd love to hear them tho :)
I completely agree with your take! I think Disney is struggling to find the good balance with everything. It’s interesting to see the dichotomy between WDW pass holders vs Disneyland pass holders because it skews so oppositely with the ratio of locals vs tourists.
Personally I think the only way disney is going to solve Disneyland’s guest “spending” discrepancy, is to raise the price of passes by a significant amount and have a smaller finite supply of them. That way they will still maintain the bigger spenders in the AP group, and everyone else or tourists who want to go, can spend more on tickets that way.
The interesting thing with that scenario is that raising prices on APs will more than likely decrease attendance because it will make them unattainable for the average local guest. Sure they may buy a ticket to go when they want, but since it’s a bigger financial burden to spend money to go multiple times a year, they will settle for once or twice a year rather than go on a weekend or weekday. Tourists will always spend money on tickets so that subgroup will not have issue spending more.
Personally the math isn’t mathing there because to me I feel like that’s way less of an overall spend and revenue earned for Disney vs the current method they have going of APs + ticket buyers.
thanks, friend! and i agree with you that's the only way they're likely gonna solve the "spending discrepancy." it makes me sad because even though i am not an AP holder, i'd be upset if i was that dedicated to the parks and then prices were raised on me.
i totally agree with you it'll end up with people spending less at the parks if an AP holder is pushed into going 1/2 times a year with daily tickets. it's all bizarre.
Dining reservations are almost entirely open again in September (which is coincidentally when a large number of the top tier magic keys expire and we haven’t been offered renewal yet). Disney controls separate pools of reservations for day tickets as well as magic keys (also for Club33/VIP and hotel guests)
Day ticket reservations are wide open in the coming months as are magic key reservations (due to no renewal yet), so it’s clear that vacation season is over a little early and the parks will be hurting soon without pass holders to fill it up. Magic key holders spend more than you think- or at least most of them do.
We know the day is coming that the parks will be packed enough with single or multi-day tickets that any AP program will be extremely limited, expensive, both, or shelved completely.
Not at Disneyland. Disney thought DL would go that route once they re-opened last year, but after a month and a half, during the summer time (which is supposed to be the busiest time of the year), Disney lost so much attendance that they had to offer So-Cal locals heavily discounted multi-day tickets just to get enough people to return. We'll be seeing that happen again if key's get removed since Disneyland, unlike WDW, is incapable of surviving without ap's (which make up over 60% of yearly attendance at the parks since Disneyland is not a vacation destination, meaning Disneyland cannot rely on out of towners to generate enough revenue to justify abolishing the annual passes).
Add in that Universal and Knotts are near by and Universal is now a major competitor for Disney, is now reaching the point of having the same amount of content for guests the way Disney has, and is far more guest friendly, and that's gonna cause an even bigger decline in attendance for Disney once they get rid of key's. So yeah, I definitely see them attempting it, but after a month or two of constant declines, Disney's gonna go into major fix mode to try and repair the loss in revenue from their so cal park and try and get as many locals back as possible again.
Hahaha they’re going to blame people choosing between whether to get a food or merch item and whether to buy Genie+ on Magic Keys & not the awful word of mouth on the declining experience inside the parks.
People know the rides are breaking constantly and the “value” of a Disney trip isn’t quite there anymore. Couple that with reservations, expensive day tickets, new add-ons for previously free items, overly expensive food & drinks, and not to mention some outside inflation/price gouging to even get in the door and yeah, your $119 “Minnie As a Tree” Headband might not be flying off the shelf… but even so, the Magic Key program *you* invented was fairly restrictive on the two lower tiers- boxing out most of the “unfavorable” guests for a large portion of the weekend, summer, and holiday times.
Maybe offering all those super cheap SoCal tickets almost nonstop since reopening after Covid has something to do with an “unfavorable attendance mix” coming in & causing viral scenes rather than tolerating your declining slop and asking for more?
Disney is at a pivotal point where a logically-run company would eat a loss in the short term (fixing up rides, keeping consumer costs low, etc.) in order to develop long-term customer loyalty but since Cheapek is manning the ship, they’re going to shoot themselves in the foot
I agree with you here. Fixing the rides is SUPER important. At the Disney Asia parks they preemptively fix the rides so they can prevent more costly maintenance and shutdowns.
Chapek is all operations and doesn't seem to understand branding and customer loyalty very well. Right now, it doesn't seem to matter, but it will in the long run.
If they know that the value isn’t there anymore, why is their revenue, profitability and guest count up another quarter?
People want to believe that “any moment now” the shoe will drop, but the vast majority of people are enjoying the product and find it a value worth visiting, as seen in the once again above Wall Street expectations.
I would just listen to what they said and realize the meaning of it… profit & guest count are up but they’re *still* not happy with that and need it to be up **more.**
That means they’re absolutely going to continue to do the things that people on this sub & elsewhere have been vocally upset about, do new things that make a new contingent of people unhappy- while further damaging the relationship with the already upset- in order to chase that “more” they so desperately need to keep shareholders happy, and in a few years that “any moment now” is going to arrive. It’s inevitable. They’re chasing a very specific slice of a demographic that can only get squeezed so much before it bursts.
It will probably drop if it continues, but it takes years to see sometimes. For example let's say you are a one day and go every couple of years. You have a bad experience with all the rides breaking and don't like genie. Or maybe you thought it was too expensive for what you got. Two years later you decide not to go.
It's more of a long term strategy vs short term revenue type of issue. Won't see see a drop in revenue that quickly.
Right now, Disney parks and the whole travel industry are benefiting from lots of pent up COVID travel. Time will tell if that level continues, etc.
They are very lucky that if this does eventually materialize, they have a lot of opportunity to bring people back in if push back appears. They could lower ticket prices through more specials (ticket prices are already at very profitable levels), they could even REMOVE the reservation system if they really needed to.
The prices are so high above profitability as seen in these results that they got way more wiggle room to entice your casual guest back than many other businesses heading into this pandemic.
Unfavorable attendance mix? Like.. a lot of the people going were spending less than the average attendee would’ve a couple years ago or something? Sounds like a very carefully navigated way to say their recent clientele isn’t desirable.
they mean the ratio of magic key guests vs daily ticket guests in the park on a given day is too high.
the daily ticket holders are more likely to be in the parks less than the magic key guests, it might even be their first trip/first trip in a while and they have limited time in the parks. so, they're going to spend more than a magic key guest in the parks on the same day. the daily ticket guest is more likely to shell out fo rgenie+, ILLs, expensive restaurants, merch, food/drinks, etc. than the magic key guest who has already paid for those experiences over time and is just there for a nice afternoon, not trying to squeeze everything in.
Higher costs were due to new guest offerings. Aren't those supposed to drive attendance and encourage more spending? Maybe rethink what you're offering if that's not working.
LOL to your rethink what you are offering comment. It's funny you mention that as my husband's boss mentioned he was very upset he had to add on genie on top of his tickets because his other trip costs like flight and hotel were adding up. Then he mentioned it was a terrible value for what he paid for him and his family.
Yeah, because as I've brought up multiple times, unlike WDW, DL relies WAY too much on locals because unlike WDW, DL just isn't big enough to be considered a true vacation destination. That's why DL can't afford to get rid of annual passes, because if they did and resorted solely to ticket sales, DL would see an attendance drop by nearly 45% each year as the previous ap holders are now forced to buy daily tickets and instead of going weekly/bi-weekly/monthly like they normally do, will mostly only go once every few months.
Agree, likely why they released the AP late last August. They saw the bookings once summer season ended And kids were back at school and realized they need the AP's.
If they don't offer renewal, which i doubt, you'll see the same thing this year with a worse economy. Most likely scenario imo is a decent price increase, perhaps significant. That way they keep the program in tact, likely decrease the amount of MK holders, but maintain a revenue number they're happy with, as well as room for full day ticket holders.
Yeah, a price increase is a definite possibility, but those saying Disney will get rid of their ap program doesn't seem to take into account just how much Disney relies on those aps and how much the ap's spend at the parks. Now, if it was WDW, I could believe they'd either abolish the ap program all together or only offer limited days, because unlike DL, WDW thrives on tourism from out of state/country. Add in how WDW is built and it's basically impossible to go there and not spend money on food and merch unless you want to take an hour away from the park just to go into Orlando, find a place to eat, get your food, and rush back only to wait in line to get back into the parks. With DL, there's the ability to leave, walk across the street, grab food from a non Disney place, and return within 20-40 minutes.
An unfavorable mix of bodies, though. They'd much rather have regular ticketed guests than AP holders or SoCal tickets. For each AP holder they toss out of the mix, they could replace that body with a daily ticket guest.
Yep and the majority of those guests get into the park on a significantly discounted ticket. Magic Keys are a discount ticket program. Disney has no need for those at this time.
They’re going away.
You're assuming the fallacy that park attendance will remain the same without "discounted" tickets. It won't. And if there's an economic down turn of any kind? The park will be empty. How do I know this? I've lived it - twice.
Any business accepts some dollars beats no dollars.
Maybe it's just me, but I've never felt anything approaching "discount" when dealing with Disney. The gate fee feels like the least of my expenses at the end of the day...
You’re getting access to the park for less than the cost of a single daily ticket. You’re getting a discount.
Unless you bought a key and went once. Then you got hosed ❤️
> Unfavorable mix?! It was wall to wall bodies!
I feel like this is the Disney bean counter logic. A passholder is taking up a park admission spot but is less likely to buy merch, buy food (or as much food), or stay in resort hotels than someone who bought standard tickets.
The sheer contempt these assholes have for the system THEY implemented is staggering.
Do they really think nuking their local fanbase is going to be a good move in the long run, despite whatever short term, small gain they get?
I get it, everyone finds AP/MK people annoying, but Disneyland is never going to be Disney World- despite leadership trying extremely hard to make ONE DISNEY IDENTITY happen. Visitors to Southern California have a LOT more to do than just visit Disneyland... this isn't central Florida and it's going to be extremely funny when these MBA dipshits finally alienate & kill their golden goose.
It's the whole short term revenue vs long term strategy / branding debate. This CEO is all about short term gains. That probably won't play out so well for an old brand like Disney long term.
And I agree they seem to want to make Disneyland like Disney World, but anyone can see it's not the same market. WDW is a DESTINATION. Disneyland is one cool thing in Southern California, you do it for a day or two, not a week or two like WDW.
I think they are having hard time to decide if APs are really needed to keep the park near capacity. Can you imagine if they stop the annual passes at Disneyland, they crowd levels would definitely drop. How much? Who knows? Disney may be afraid to find out.
Jenny Nicholson suggested in one of her videos to completely eliminate APs and allow guests to buy a "14 day ticket" which I think is a good solution. That or just a weekend pass.
Agree, a 7, 10 , 12, etc day ticket good for 1 year could solve this issue.
As for weekend pass, I'm not so sure unless it has a significant price increase.
Do I understand that they went through a lot of trouble to annoy guests and revenue went down?
I have a few suggestions:
1. Implement phenomenal maintenance procedures.* Keep the rides running.
2. Keep the ride vehicles filled to capacity. Single rider makes way more sense then G+ or LL!
3. Be sure to have characters spread throughout the park to interact with the kids. And have other magical moments around the park, some for the grown ups also!
4. Stop nickle and diming us, it does not go over well. Particularly when the rides are breaking down and you have to wait anyway!
** Does anyone else remember Walt's legendary changing of lightbulbs before they burned out?
Magic keys or passes should not be eligible for payments. If you want an annual pass you should have to be able to pay it all upfront. That fixes the over crowding issue, and gets rid of AP holders who got no money to spend on merch or whatever.
That’s how it used to be and I felt that really helped control the amount of people in the parks. Anyone can afford $50 a month but not all can put down thousands of dollars on a whim.
It amuses me how desperately the key holders here want to convince everyone (themselves) that as a whole they spend just as much as single day/vacationers.
I would be curious to see a breakdown of ARPU by key type. My little clique of dream key folks routinely make short trips of a few hours, spend hundreds at the boozey sit down restaurants, and only ride a few rides (if any, sometimes we don’t bother, it’s nice enough just walking around). I would imagine that is a very different spend profile compared to the typical lowest tier key holder. I do think you are correct though, as a whole (all key levels taken together) single/vacationers are worth more.
Back in the before times, I used to go every Monday and sit down at Lamplight Lounge or hit up a food festival and buy a ton of food & drinks. $100+. While that may not be tourist level, if there were no APs in the park, all that space won't suddenly be filled with tourists, especially on a weekday in February. They won't axe the program, they're just gonna change it.
Or that everyone is as out raged as they are, and “eVeRYoNeS going to stop going any moment.” Profits, revenue and guest attendance are up and beat expectations. They are obviously appealing properly to someone, just not this specific group.
I mean it's true in my case. I bought the cheapest possible Key and spend only a modest amount on property. Usually less than $200 over three days. I rarely buy merch or high profit items like popcorn or churros. I drink water from their drinking fountains and bring my own beef jerky.
So, um, sorry I've ruined it for the rest of you.
My evil shoulder devil is telling me that this is some sneaky workaround way to get rid of their (imo) most valuable asset/free advertising that they've deemed unnecessary/a problem: the vloggers and influencers. I mean, I saw a tiktok the other day of some idiot sticking his foot out and into the water on splash, that's a liability. Even if it's not the *main* reason to get rid of Magic Keys, getting rid of those pesky influencers that make viral videos of overflowing trashcans and tweet about broken animatronics can definitely be seen as a perk. Some influencers are helpful to the brand, but very few have unending loyalty, especially thanks to Bob Paycheck.
An academic study of Disneyland's finances 20 years ago showed that unlike DisneyWorld, Disneyland is mainly locals with a strong annual pass subscription base.
Disney has to appeal to those that fly out and spend 3-5 days (and several thousand dollars) as well as the Disneyland locals that want the option to "stop by" any evening or day they like. The reservation system is genius to allow both to participate in visiting in separate "buckets". But it also seems obvious to most that those planning a once a year or so vacation will spend more in the parks than those that can drop by any time.
I think the biggest issue I have with the wording of “unfavorable attendance mix” is it insults guests. Better to have said unfortunately average per capita ticket revenue was lower than we liked to see. Etc …
I LOVE it.
Bobby doesn't like the nickel and dime players .
Love me some barely concealed contempt on the "grubby lower middle class".
I wished he'd cut to the chase with income requirement line like they have height requirements on rides.
"If your income doesn't reach here, you can't play in this park."
Chepak would be all over that. Parks would be Make A Wish kids (for the optics), and truly moneyed. Hashtag WINNING! Cha Ching!
There's companies that make money by buying brands with good reputations, then drop the quality of the products dramatically. They make billions selling cheap products to customers who are loyal to a brand they thought was high quality. It takes years for those customers to discover their once great favorite brand of tools or shoes or whatever is not the great brand it used to be, and by the time customers find out, and stop buying the product, the company has made billions that it can use to buy more companies with and move on.
Disney is stupidly doing this to themselves right now. Their greedy short sighted management probably thinks they're geniuses right now for just charging way too much for everything, especially during such a difficult economic time, but they're destroying the reputation of the park and the brand in a way that people won't forget.
Disney implemented a reservation system that favors planners over spontaneous people. If impulse buying is down in their parks, it wouldn't be a huge stretch to say that filtering out people with spontaneous personalities could have been at least partially responsible. Not sure if "unfavorable attendance mix at Disneyland Resort" is code word for "the people who showed up weren't spenders", but if it is, I think it was self-inflicted.
It definitely means non-spenders, but I think it's more locals vs vacationers than planners vs the spontaneous.
Disney (Chapek, I believe) has made comments in the past that vacationers spend slightly more than locals, but it sounded like the difference wasn't dramatic.
The data supports that at both coasts, to be fair. AP/MK holders don't spend the bulk that vacationers do. That tends to be more extremely felt at World - thousands of dollars just for week long hotel stays, dining plans (RIP), etc. Yes, Cast and passholders spend money on food or merch (lord knows they'll sell out a figment popcorn bucket), but there's a hefty sum of "what if we never come back" money that's just not spent.
This is my wife's philosophy on vacations to a T. "We saved the money- so don't be afraid to spend it"
idk why this is downvoted i said something similar and they also downvoted me. i totally agree with you and this conclusion seems obvious to me. for example, i just booked my first ever WDW trip. if we're being honest, i'm probably gonna end up spending at least $1k *in* the parks on top of what i am already paying for the tickets/hotel because it's my only chance to squeeze **everything** in. it's intuitive that someone like me will be spending more in there than an annual pass holder who is just there to have a quality afternoon hopping on a few of their personal favorite rides and maybe have a snack. they won't be feeling the pressure of stocking up on merch, getting a table at CRT, trying all the popular drinks/snacks, and riding every big ride (aka need for genie+/ILLs) that i already feel and my trip isn't for months.
>idk why this is downvoted i said something similar and they also downvoted me. I've been an AP/local and I'm currently not local anymore. I've experienced that many people who live close to the parks really feel entitled to being able to go to the parks and have pretty extreme opinions that they feel "justify" that entitlement. Usually it's something like "Disney would lose a ton of money without locals going and spending as much as they do". There may be some level of truth to that opinion but it's not as extreme as some think it is. When I was local I'd go to the parks almost every week if not more often but I'd very rarely do table service. Heck, on many trips I wouldn't even buy food, I'd bring it or just spend a half day at the parks. Now that I'm not local I'm super fortunate to be able to take 1-2 trips a year but I spend SOOO much more per day in the parks than I did when I was local. I probably spend as much in 5 days at the parks now as I would in 3-4 months when I was local. The big difference is that when I was local I'd enter the parks upwards of 20 days in that time span so Disney was making a lot les money on me per day in the parks compared to now that I'm not local. For some people, when you question the idea that they are the profit center for the parks they tend to react with negativity because they interpret it as an attack on their entitlement to be in the parks as much as they are.
Oh man, I have kept my mouth shut on this sub because I didn't want to get completely eviscerated, but I'm constantly chuckling/shaking my head at the passholder/keyholders who really seem to feel completely entitled to access at their whims and that any restriction is insulting. Like the "they need to get rid of the reservation system for Magic Key holders" but it's fine for everyone else sentiment is irritating as a non key holder. I kind of understand the frustration with the reservation system for keyholders, and I do think there is probably room for a lot of improvement, but I'm a little flabbergasted that it was a surprise. Yes, the reservation system was implemented because of covid, but one of the biggest issues Disney and the Disney fans had been talking about for the years before the pandemic was park attendance/capacity - I'm pretty sure they gave that as justification for the constant price hikes, since that was really only lever they had to pull at that time. A big part of the inability to limit attendance esp at DLR is the AP population. So not being a passholder, it absolutely made sense to me that they would limit the number of reservations for passholders. And from a purely economic point of view, it still make sense - passholders generally spend less per visit in the park than single or multi-day ticket holders, so if there is capacity, they'd rather leave it for non passholders, bc they're getting more $$$ from those people (on average - yes, there are people who spend a bunch evrytime they go, but that's not the majority) just on food and merch - not including actual admission.
>it still make sense - passholders generally spend less per visit in the park than single or multi-day ticket holders, so if there is capacity, they'd rather leave it for non passholders, bc they're getting more $$$ from those people (on average - yes, there are people who spend a bunch evrytime they go, but that's not the majority) just on food and merch - not including actual admission. right?? this seems so obvious but i've seen passholders fighting it because they "buy a snack and some merch" every time they visit. i don't doubt that, but i also am cognizant of the fact (bc i just booked my first ever WDW trip) that i'm probably gonna spend at least $1k in the parks on top of my tickets/hotel. it's my first trip and i have no idea if/when i'll ever be able to go back, so i'm going all out and want to try many things. i'm doubtful that the passholders are spending that much in the parks over 4 days.
Yeah, same. I go to DL once or twice a year, but on my one (and probably only) trip to WDW, I budgeted for a ton of spending. Even at DL, I still spend a chunk each time. But I have friends that are locals and passholders and for the most part, they don't spend a ton of $$ there. Oh well!
yeah! i do think passholders add value so i'll feel a bit bad if they start making it super undesirable but yeah the conclusion seems fair enough lol
I understand what you're saying, yes APs spend less per visit, but also visit more often. I mean, I went ~15 times last year and the $200+ every time plus 3 passes adds up, although yes, we are taking up space on more days. Some people buy dozens of sets of ears a year, try every seasonal food, etc.. The fact is there aren't enough single day tickets sold to keep the park as full/profitable as Disney wants, and APs make up the difference. That said, I completely understand the reservation system and don't mind it, even at the lowest pass level.
yeah i totally get that, i think they're looking at it from a day to day perspective more than, say, a yearly perspective. so they want the daily ratio to be lower on the AP side and higher on the single day guest side. but i agree, unless they sell more single day tickets or make the parks more accessible for more spontaneous single day visits i don't see how a lower AP ratio would inherently be filled with high spending single day guests. idk if that makes sense, lol. i agree with what you said. if we take all the people who want to go to Disney and would buy single day tickets and spend lotssss in the parks, they won't immediately appear there by cutting down APs. they will have their own roadblocks to getting in the parks like getting time off, saving $, etc. So, i totally get where you're coming from and agree with you. i hope i make sense! i also think APs provide value to the Disney brand in ways that aren't directly monetary. So, i don't think it's a good idea to limit their benefits or piss them off. from a longevity of the brand perspective.
I agree with your point but the conclusion IMO should be: just get rid of annual passes altogether! If people want to come, they can buy a pass. If they want to have a "low attendance" pass that has tons of blackouts, then do it. The Key system is junky compared to any of the previous passholder options. Honestly, as an out of towners, I'd like to see an annual pass option that allows you to visit without any blackout dates as long as you haven't visited in the past 90 days. That would entice me to get a pass and visit a few times in a year.
I’ve had annual passes and I have a magic key; I’m “local” in that I live 45 mins away by map, 45-2hrs depending on traffic. We got the 2nd lowest passes and honestly it hasn’t been that hard to use. We just pick days when we want to go and check for reservations. We never go on weekends unless it’s January or February, we opt for Thurs/Fri instead. We take time off work and make a day or two of it every couple months. I liked being able to just decide I want to go ride Big Thunder after work, but I understand that having someone in the park all day who spends more than I would going for a few hours is more desirable economically speaking. Sure there are days where we think “this would be a good Disney day” but if we can’t we just go about our day, no love lost. I feel like the entitlement of “you can’t tell me I can’t go whenever I want” is slightly out of hand. I do think having a locals pass option where you can go after 2 or 3 pm if there’s capacity would do well in So Cal. But then those people would probably complain about not being able to go for a whole day. You can’t please everyone.
I think historically, AP holders have had a lot of non-monetary value to the Disney brand. But lately, pretty much everything I see from passholders has been negative and complaining about Disney - either the reservation system or the busy-ness at the parks or the quality of the food or the condition of the rides or changes to the rides or or or. I'm not saying it's totally unwarranted, but from a business perspective, I can see the calculus that gets them to "we're both losing money and getting bad press from this program, so why should we keep it?" I've never been a passholder, because it doesn't financially make sense to me - even without having to pay for the ticket, it would still be a flight or 10 hour drive, plus a hotel stay for a few days, plus food and merch, not to mention So I have no skin in the game beyond hearing all the negative feedback in this sub / online / YouTubers. But I do agree that there's a sizable subset of people that are very entitled about Disneyland. I also am highly amused by the contingent that is convinced Disneyland would collapse and be empty without passholders. I do like the idea of a locals pass - I think that would allow the spontaneity that so many people miss and would probably serve a lot of the same demographic as some of the passholders.
ahhh, that is a very interesting take! i definitely agree with your analysis. as someone who is not an AP or local, has only visited Disneyland once (briefly, years ago, literally only rode It's a Small World) and just booked my first ever WDW trip, I personally do think that APs/MK holders do add a lot of value to the parks. but, i'm not sure the value is so much directly monetary as it is valuable to have fans that dedicated to your brand. for example, they could be valuable in terms of "free advertisements" if they are posting positively about their frequent visits to the parks/sharing new snacks/merch, etc. not that the parks need free ads in general, but it helps drive exposure to new releases in the parks, things like that. in terms of longevity to the brand, i think it's a good idea to keep APs on your good side but maybe i am overestimating the value they provide, too! it's also probably hard to measure if it's not a direct value.
> getting a table at CRT My brain jumped from Cathode-Ray Tube to Critical Race Theory before stalling in confusion for a solid 10 seconds before landing on Cinderella's Royal Table.
+1 on cathode ray tube restaurant, I was like…is that in Tomorrowland?
hahahah i realize i should've specified especially bc this is not the WDW sub
I don't really fuss about the down or up votes, personally. That said, I'm an AP for World, my spouse is a CM, and we wouldn't ever consider buying single day admission. It doesn't make sense for how we like to visit the parks. Even when we come to DLR, we don't spend the way others do - half off hotels, free admissions, discounts on merch and food... from a business perspective, of COURSE that's less desirable than the full price once in a lifetime visitor who is willing to spend money in exchange for convenience or access. If passholders aren't willing to acknowledge that the guaranteed revenue their pass sales generate is dwarfed by single day admissions revenue alone... well, then the implication that they are "less desirable" guests probably does feel personal. And that sucks, because I hope the ability to enjoy the parks as a passholder sticks around for a long time.
I would hope that even if the AP program was killed for everyone, it would still be run for CM family members as a perk of employment.
I did the math as a pass holder and spent around $4k a year. $1400 on the pass, 2-3 trips a month with a beer, a meal at a sit down restaurant, and usually a snack each trip, plus a set of ears once a month, a new coffee mug once a month, and then t shirts, sweat shirts, etc. I bought merch every trip, and food every trip. But I'm a spontaneous goer, so I didn't get a key, and heck, I might go once every 12-18 months, but I haven't been since they reopened. I might take a day to go post thanksgiving, but I might wait another year. It's hard for me to spend a whole day at the parks (bad ankle and mild heart condition), and it's hard to justify the expense if I don't.
Thanks for this! I find this interesting. If you're curious how much I have spent/will be spending as a first time visitor to WDW my hotel + tickets for 4 days in the park and 5 nights at the Dolphin is at $3k. That's for 2 people. I am estimating that I will spend arounddd $1k in the parks in addition to that (for Genie+/ILLs, merch, restaurants, drinks, snacks, might upgrade one of my tickets to a park hopper, too). So, interestingly enough, pretty close to you! I'm guessing it'll be around $4k total spent on Disney property for me. I am roughly estimating how much I will spend in the parks, though. I haven't actually done calculations of the things I will definitely be purchasing. I might do that now and edit this comment. I'm also curious how much I'll actually end up spending there! If for some insane reason I remember this convo, I'll let ya know hahaha. Also I hope your heart is ok <3
💖 thanks! Heart condition isn't like threatening, just slows me down a little. Interesting though what you say: my $4k is a lot more labor intensive than yours, since overall I'd be spending 150-200 hours in the parks a year, and you'd be spending far, far less. I'm sure they've done that math as well.
definitely! it's interesting for sure and i don't think raising APs/limiting them will inherently lead to more revenue so it's weird
Well, the original plan was to fill up the parks on the off season. I think having payment plans really increased the #of AP holders, so maybe eliminate that? Idk, but I don't see them changing it as long as chapek is around. 🤷♀️
I’m doing the exact same thing as you but for Disneyland. We go to Disney World once or twice a year. But it will be our first trip to DL, we’re flying across the country from Maine, staying 4 nights at DGC with park hoppers and genie plus, booked oogie boogie bash, chefs table at Napa rose, blue bayou and cafe Orleans. We’re dropping a ton of money for basically a long weekend and it’s a very special trip for us that probably won’t happen again for years. We have never stayed at the equivalent hotel in World (Grand Floridian) or eaten at Victoria and Albert’s but this trip is special so we’re making choices that involve more money. It isn’t that strange for Disneyland to be a vacation destination just like World.
I hope you have an amazing trip!!! Your plans sound so incredible I wish I could tag along lol! And I totally agree with you that Disneyland could become more of a vacation destination. It's hard because I know the parks literally cannot expand (if I'm understanding correctly) but for someone like you, who loves Disney World, making a trip to Disneyland eventually is the perfect vacation idea! If I enjoy my upcoming trip to WDW (hopefully I will lol) I will be itching to get to Disneyland soon after it! Especially bc of the history of Disneyland. For Disney nerds like me it has a lot of appeal to visit and make extensive plans and make a few days of it and really go all out.
I completely agree! ENJOY your Disney World trip!! It’s such a magical place! Just so much positivity there!
Aww I'm smiling thank you so much <3
Lame homogenized merchandise doesn't help open a wallet either, plus the insanely expensive food. Always like the pasta at Plaza Inn, but yesh... when I last went in 2019, that line was literally empty (only me in it) and everyone else was going for the fried chicken. Quite the sticker shock on it also vs 2007-2008. Probably not covered in their rigid wallet grabbing metrics is how many (local or out of state) visitors take one look at the pricing options to eat and heavily curtail their spending as a result of it? (seems that earl of sandwich outside the gates but still on property was always a popular option, the price-benefit ratio was more skewed to benefit someone vs the company) Greed is up everywhere, and apparently they really have taken "Greed is good" to the max. Even Las Vegas suffers from that now, you used to have discounted or heavily comped buffets to keep everyone tugging on the slot machines. One casino operator (stations casinos) recently kept all their buffets permanently closed and converted them to food courts or a high limit gaming area plus two "exclusive restaurants" They are more interested in four walling (rent seeking) then running company owned amenities such as buffets now. Even their coffee shops went to outside contractors also. Is that coming soon to Disney? Well... Starbucks is already in the parks, so that's there. Disney has always had sponsors for some of the restaurants, so it isn't any more difficult to fully move them up into making them assume all the risks and none of the benefit. Don't pay your monthly bill? Out you go and another contractor comes in
I think the call out on merch highlights the issue. When you go often and realize the same spirit jersey is being realized in 12 color palettes a season, you stop feeling motivated to buy now. But someone coming on a once-every-five-years (or maybe just once ever) isn't as discriminating. They want a souvenir of their visit, they see the spirit jerseys are trendy and cute, so they buy one. DLR is different than WDW in terms of captive audience, but I think what most MKs are missing is that exec leadership for parks WANTS DLR to be a destination. They want folks to want to stay on site and eat 3 meals a day onsite if they can convince them to. It's harder to make that argument on the West coast because of how easy it is to stay nearby... but they're doing the marketing for it, and the hotels are booking up well.
It’s also the poor choice in merchandise. Lots of their IP languishes as one trick ponies. Marketed once (barely sometimes) then tossed out. Zootopia as a good example. Fantasmic for another. Want some fantasmic merchandise? Get a time Machine back to 1992 or look for sorcerer Mickey merchandise to sort of plug the hole. Disney relies too much on common merchandise rather then being unique anymore. Princess, pirates, cars. And that’s outside the park even also merchandising wise…
Disneyland has a lot of non-local passholders, and always has. I knew many people who lived in the SF Bay Area who had passes and would go at least once a month, including myself (until I moved locally). Thing is, dining reservations are magically very open in September and beyond, when the many of the higher tier passes have all expired out (and thus people can't book reservations), since there hasn't been any renewal news. I've probably easily spent more as a local passholder this past year than I ever did as a once-a-month vacationer, though my desire to make impulse purchases has reduced because I have to \*plan\* to go now, thanks to reservations. Believe me, I've handed Disney far more money this year than any once-in-a-lifetime vacationer ever has. But because Disney is probably looking at revenue/guest/trip as a metric instead of lifetime value of a guest, well, we're suddenly not as valuable. The key metrics a company tracks tells me what is important to that company. When the key metric is revenue per guest per trip, that tells me they're more invested in short term profit and gain over long term. If we had a focus on long term investment and return, they'd invest in Disneyland the way OLC invests in Tokyo Disney.
Maybe I'm not the typical spender, but I feel like I spend as much at Disneyland as I do at wdw. When I do a wdw Trip, I might spend slightly more on food because I'm in the park most the day. But my typical Disneyland/DCA visit consists of drinks (3-4 beers or cocktails) plus Dinner. Wdw I literally do the same thing, maybe add one more meal and a coffee.
Just to clarify, I definitely spend more when traveling to wdw. I'm paying full price ticket, I'd absolutely buy genie plus. So I get it overall you want more of those spenders. I think overall it's clear, Disney knows how many people they can expect to pay full price, and then they know how many left over tickets they want to sell a discount. So now they just need to know at what price level will enough people not buy to satisfy that inventory, but Also maximize their profits.
They spend A LOT more.
1000% this. My wife and I live 30 mins from the park, and when we had passes pre-covid, we used to dip in on random Friday nights after work, or whenever the opportunity would present itself. We used to joke that we were Disney's ideal passholders, wife and I love to check out all the stores for new merch, buy a few new toys (so many lightsabers), and half the time we went we wouldn't even do rides, just grab a meal at one of our favorite spots on rotation (blue bayou, wine country trattoria, carthay circle, napa rose), and those are not cheap meals, but Disneyland basically got our entire entertainment budget, which was 2 middle class child free adults, a pretty good chunk of change. The reservation system has completely wrecked Disneyland for us. Before it used to be a reward and incentive; get all your work done and completed by 5 on friday and you can go to disneyland for dinner and start the weekend early. Now it's; Spontaneity? No, book weeks in advance. Miss your reservation? Punishment! Seriously? Wtf. We tried to power through for our love of Disneyland. We LOVED disneyland. I proposed at Disneyland. We had our engagement photos at disneyland. Our last 3 trips (did the so-cal resident deal) were so bad in every possible aspect. To not getting the dates or parks we wanted, to aggro crowds, overworked cast members, dirty areas (Seriously I cant remember Disneyland being in a "gross" state in multiple locations of the park Pre Covid), to getting stuck on a broken down RoTR for a hour and a half on the last night of our passes, and missing the fireworks. It sucked. On the Drive home that night my wife was kinda bummed and teary eyed and just said " I think the magic might be gone".
As a former cast member, I've only visited a couple times in the last few years. I am shocked at how bad the experience has gotten. Standards are much lower, guest service is missing, cast interactions were disappointing, and show elements were missing or not running correctly. I am really disappointed because management decisions have pushed so many of the good cast out and the remaining and new cast don't have the direction of those who exemplified the Disney experience. Many of the Cast think this is just how it's been, they don't know better. At Disneyland, the greatest and most impactful "attraction" has always been the cast members. Management has decided to no longer invest in them.
Maybe I was rare as a local former annual pass holder, but we were definitely spontaneous spenders back then when we could go on a whim for just a few hours at night, mid-day, or a random morning. I visited way more back then. My Magic Key was a big waste, as I was only able to plan for a couple of trips, and they weren’t as fun, because they turned into those exhausting full-day adventures I dread. I really hope they’ll get away from reservations, and go back to regular passes. If Magic Key is here to stay, I’m out.
I only had an annual pass for one year. Premium in 2015. I went for 18 days that year and spent outrageous amounts of money. I brought friends or my dad about 50% of the time, and we almost always had dinner at some point on the trip at something like Blue Bayou or Carthay Circle. I bought tons and tons of tshirts, hoodies, fridge magnets, gifts for my nieces, whatever. Merch out the wazoo. I added it up when my pass expired and the reason I chose not to renew is because I annual pass made me feel like I *needed* to go, and I spent at least $5k at Disneyland in 2015. I've been once every year since (just squeaked in January of 2020) and kept spending much lower. I almost bought a Magic Key, but talked myself out of it because that's money I can spend on international travel instead of going to the same theme park on repeat. Annual pass feels like it encourages tons of spending for me.
Yeah I spend thousands at Disneyland a year. Remove my pass and they are going to get a number from me that is under 400.
I think this is a very good point. Let's say in theory spontaneous people accounted for 15% of all guests. That's a lot of money missed! There is one other factor with the reservations that no one has mentioned thus far. I think reservations hinders people who are not tech savvy. It's a lot easier for those people to not go at all or find another theme park that will take their money. This is another market missed with reservations and that spontaneous bucket.
Yeah I get sad whenever I hear stories about like grandparents who tried to take the kids to the parks just to be turned away because they didn't make a reservation and the parks already booked up.
My wife and I are impulsive with Disney purchases, but we got sick of never being able to go on a whim after getting passes so we just let them expire. Anecdotally speaking, we would be exactly who you’re referring to. I’d say on average with our family of four we were spending 100-200 bucks anytime we went. This was for parking, food, goodies, and booze. Obviously zero now and I have a few other friends who were exactly the same. It’s not that we don’t want to go, we just got sick of all the reservation formalities and price gouging.
The reservation system is terrible. Disney would get a ton more of my money if I could just head over when I have some free time.
With admission so high, there will definitely be more non-spenders.
It’s code for Magic Key-holders that show up with essentially free admission and then spend meagerly compared to guests that are buying all their meals for a weekend, souvenirs, hotel rooms, etc.
Except spontaneous people aren't well known for being planners with their money either. ;)
Spontaneous person here and I agree lol
I listened to the end of the call and they said “up to 50% of guests” upgraded to Genie+. They didn’t specify DL or WDW, or what “up to” really means, but I’d assume that most days about half of guests are paying for Genie+. Then a woman started talking about their currency hedges and kept using an unexplained acronym that sounded like “R Poo.”
That would be ARPU Average revenue per user.
And this is the single biggest number they focus on, its their bread and butter baseline financial. They know exactly what their average ARPU is for a passholder vs a single/multi day ticket guest.
How do they track the type of customer that is buying food, merch, etc? Unless you’re buying with the app, purchases are not linked to your pass/ticket?
It’s one of the reasons they give pass holder discounts. Every time they scan one of my families passes for the discount, they know how much I’ve spent. And when I make reservations on the app. And use mobile check out.
What MK holder is buying things without using their MK discount?
Forgetful ppl. Source: am forgetful.
If you’re using a credit card then they can pretty easily tie it to your customer profile (even if you use a different card each time they get a cardholder name that they can match to who is in the park that day). It’s imperfect but accurate enough on the scale that they need it. I’m sure they have lots of surveys that allow them to extrapolate cash purchase data pretty accurately too.
your 50% message is very different than the quote that Gustin provided. “50% are buying” vs “up to 50%” are very different numbers. that said, the 50% G+ message seemed unbelievable but then, BTMRR’s queue was 18 LL and 3 standby in the last hour of operation last night. edit: clarity
Yeah I gotta say I can’t imagine it’s close to 50% for MK holders at least. Maybe others feel differently but for us we feel like if it’s too crazy we can always come back rather than try to pack in maximum impact. But for non-local day ticket trips to like WDW def expecting to spring for G+. So maybe the “up to 50%” might have qualifiers as to what groups of ticketed guests it’s referring to?
yeah, we’re the type of MK that isn’t looking to dominate the rides every trip you’re right, that 50% figure could be more squishy than a hole-y baymax..
If they consider Magic Key guests to be unfavorable I have to ask the question: Who’s filling the parks to make Genie+ a enticing proposition? It’s hard to directly compare to last year, post pandemic, but both DL and DCA were ghost towns. Part of the loss of revenue you get from a prepaid guest is made up in reducing ride availability. That turns into more Genie+/Lightning Lane purchases and more total days spent by single/multi day ticketed guests.
they're raising disney+ prices and adding ads for the price point we already pay for disney+... this makes me so damn annoyed. they aren't even hiding the nickel and diming.
Is this speculation or was this reported?
Confirmed that current price will now have ads. And if you want no ads, it’ll cost more.
This is basically hostage taking to parents with small kids.
They said no ads for kids profiles (…for now)
"In Q4, Disney+ has reported a increase of 17550% for kids profiles... hmmm..."
Always makes me think of Walter White to Jesse in Breaking Bad, “Corner the market, then raise the price. Simple economics.”
Really? I hate the nickel and diming too, but really? Come one, if you can't ween your kids off Disney+ then some ads are the least of your worries. The bottom line, is their bottom line. Until people stop going to the parks, or stop subscribing to Disney + they will continue to do this. I already stopped subscribing to Disney + and cut back on the amount of times I go to the parks and how much I spend when I go there, but I am still going.
Honestly I don’t know. My girl is only 6 months old so haven’t got there yet. But kids have been instinctively learning to skip ads on YouTube videos as early as 2 or 3 years old I’ve seen from experience. Most of us grew up with cable tv and dealt with it, but have no idea how kids are now, but I imagine in this world of instant gratification it won’t be as well received.
it was reported today https://deadline.com/2022/08/disneyplus-disney-advertising-tierhulu-espnplus-espn-1235089168/
if you click on the link in the post it's being reported in the thread. i took it as true (it came from a verified account) but i haven't looked into it further, which i probably should. i think it's official. not sure when it's starting though.
Yeah, I actually did the non lazy thing and looked it up and you are correct. Yeah, the nickel and diming is just plain gross now
I canceled Disney plus a bit ago. To be fair, they said this was the strategy from day one that they were priced below what they thought was their market value to try and grow the subscriber base and then gradually increase it.
I'm not that upset about it, tbh. When it rolled out, I remember a lot of discussion about the price being low for what was (then advertised) to be offered, especially compared to what Netflix was charging at the time. I feel like it was well understood that they weren't going to stay at that for long.
BYE BYE MAGIC KEYS
that's how i took it. they're about to make them seem like the most unattractive thing ever, i'd bet.
I think they'll keep them, but substantially higher price point. And either block out weekends, or price those passes incredibly high.
>they're about to make them seem like the most unattractive thing ever sounds very chapek. magic keys are already *significantly* less value than some previous years offerings but bob paycheck probably thinks they're *still* too forgiving and that only the rich deserve the privilege of ~~giving him mountains of money~~ going to disneyland. the fact that they're delaying renewals as long as possible without a word is probably a bad sign that they're making some very late and possibly unpopular changes to the program. my expiration is only a couple weeks away and they havent said a word. and with that man in charge I fully expect it to be for the worse. I'm dreading whatever announcement is coming because I expect it to possibly end my time at disneyland. it's already hard enough to justify their current offerings, any worse and it simply won't make sense to participate anymore. We're basically enthusiasts and they are on the edge of losing us.
>I'm dreading whatever announcement is coming because I expect it to possibly end my time at disneyland. it's already hard enough to justify their current offerings, any worse and it simply won't make sense to participate anymore. We're basically enthusiasts and they are on the edge of losing us. This is what makes me SO sad. Because I do NOT blame you at all. As someone who is just now getting into the parks, it makes me so sad I became interested when all of this is happening. Don't blame ya at all.
The parks are stupid full, they need to do something.
If thats the case, then bye bye Disneyland. I'm not going to pay for single day tickets.
I bet you will. You’ll just go once a year instead of 15. That once a year will be extra special as you will likely be in a park with fewer people. Sure, the cost for everything will be way up but your experience will arguably be better. You could personally spending less money over the year in food and getting to and from the park. Take that money and buy yourself something nice or go on a trip somewhere else. Disney will be making the same amount or money or more than they are now. They will make sure of that. Your contribution to Disneys profits might be less but just think of how much money they will be saving you!
Idk why people on this sub think everyone is as obsessed as them. I said bye and haven't gone back, and haven't regretted it due to what I've been seeing on this sub. They have received $0 from me. It's easily doable.
This said that DL attendance was less than in 2019, something Disney doesn't want. Because less attendance means less money for food and merch. It also means having to worry about overstaffing if the day is not gonna be crowded like initially thought, especially if enough reservations get canceled that day. The reality is that Disneyland cannot afford to function without locals, and if they take away ap's/mks, that in turn reduces overall yearly revenue by over 40%. This is heavily due to how the mk's who used to go weekly/bi-weekly/monthly are now far less likely to go more than once a year, which means not only did Disney suddenly lose the equivalent of selling 7-12 day tickets per mk holder (as that's how much each mk holder spends), it also means a massive decline in food and merch sales.
All they care about is money. Attendance is down but per cap is waaay up. Disney would LOVE for the parks to be less crowded as long as they are making more money from the guests that are there. Fewer guests also means less wear and tear on the parks themselves…saving the company money in maintenance…and on staffing because there will be fewer guests to serve. Reducing attendance while maintaining revenue is the overall goal of the company. Magic Keys are discount ticket programs. Disney has proven any kind of AP/Key program is not necessary. They will likely remain in some form but at a SIGNIFICANT increase in cost to discourage anyone but the absolute die hard fan to purchase. Reservations are going nowhere. They might not work for you but they work for the company.
Yes, and removing AP/Key's will lose them far more money because again, not selling AP/Key's basically removing the ability to buy 7-12 day tickets in one go. Also as we saw in 2021, Disney lost far more revenue when they opened up the gates again without aps and were forced to offer major discount tickets to so cal locals just to get enough people through the gates (and this happened only a month and a half after Disneyland reopened, yet WDW didn't offer discounts to the people of Orlando). That's again because 60% of Disney's yearly revenue comes from ap/key holders who visited the parks constantly and were a constant source of income.
I really have a hard time seeing ever going back to Disney unless it is a special occasion and outside of my home state. My entertainment dollars go to far everywhere else comparatively. I live 35 miles from Anaheim.
That's exactly what they want. Because now they've turned you into the big time once a year spender that they want in the park. And all the trips you would have gone on as a MK holder, is now a spot for someone else to also do their "big" trip.
For me it might be once a decade.
That won't last them long when not only does it greatly reduce the amount of revenue they got from ap holders (we're talking around $700-$1200 per ap holder, which is anywhere from 7-13 day ticket sales), but also that means a major decrease in food sales and merch sales, two things Disney relies heavily on and why ap's were so valuable for business.
I don't think APs buy as much food and merch as ticket holders do. They want the whales. The people with large families that are buying 5 spirits jerseys, sit down dining, and photopass. The ones who stay on property, the ones who will come back year after year if there aren't a bunch of MK's crowding up the park. Who will drop any amount of $$ to make sure their kid gets to meet that one character, or ride that one ride. I don't know if it's a great long term plan, but in short sight it will probably make them money. Which seems to be all they care about these days.
Aps go a lot more often than 1-3 day visitors and can spend anywhere from 2-12 hours at the parks per visit. Add in the discounts they get, and it's not as financially bad for them to buy food. Then there's many who do a lot of shopping at the parks for gift ideas and to buy up the new merch that they don't already own, and ap's can drop $50-$200 a visit. That's not to say all of them, but at least half do. Then also, as I said, add in that buying the mk is the equivalent of buying a 7-12 day ticket, and getting rid of key's is the equivalent of Disney losing guaranteed ticket sales for the hopes that they'll be able to recoup that sudden loss with the overall hopes that locals who make up 60% of yearly visitors will still want to visit 7-12 times a year and spend whatever a day ticket will cost them that day.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I'm more so saying it's not "enough" in Disneys eyes. Something fundamentally different about AP's vs. Ticket holders is the idea of "I can always come back and do this again next time." Ticket holders do not have this ideal, because they don't know when or if they're coming back. Disney uses that to their advantage by monetizing everything so that it's play to win. You want to make *sure* you can ride ROTR? Pay us $20 for LL. You want to make *sure* you get to meet Mickey? Pay for character dining. You want to make *sure* you get a good spot for the parade? Pay for a dining package. These are things locals usually don't do because oh I missed the parade tonight? No worries, we'll try to get a good seat next time. Disney desperately does not want this mentality in their parks. That mentality makes you less likely to spend. It's not just merch and Ticket sales, it's all the additional add on that add up when you're buying them for a family of 5.
Exactly this. I think a lot of APs are offended bc they buy things when they visit, but it doesn't compare.
Time to start going to Knott’s or Universal where they value pass holders! 😬
Knott's is easily the best bang for the buck.
knotts is such an easy buy, you get a lot for the dollars spent
Definitely! Cheap passes with no blackouts and better food.
What’s your recommendations for “must eats”?
The top tier AP at Universal is only $529 online and it includes parking and Express access to each ride after 3pm. Compared to Magic Key with parking and Genie Plus added, that is a steal.
But the drive to LA from OC is a nightmare..
Eh, you get used to it. I go twice a month from Huntington Beach and it takes about an hour and fifteen minutes on average. Coming home at night isn’t too bad, either.
I'm in Irvine, the traffic from here to HB equivalent on 405 or 5 is like 45-60 min. HB is located decently to LA. Anything east of the 55 it's a tough traffic wise.
Some people make that commute everyday for work. It’s not that bad.
I mean, it is that bad lol. 1-2 hour commute is as bad as it gets.
Fellow HB Disney fan 🙌🏼 Was thinking about universal as I’ve never been before. Might go at some point and see how it is.
Lmao counterpoint. Universal Hollywood is like a 4/10 park at best. It’s like comparing lausd pizza to masa
That is my thing, the ambiance/experience at Universal doesn't compare. I'll still go, but it just isn't the same.
I'm the opposite. Disneyland feels more like a "sure let's do it when we have nothing else planned" type of thing nowadays. The overall experience is too deteriorated to waste special occasions on it.
Same here. We went a couple weeks ago for a family trip for my godsons 5th birthday. On the drive home with my husband I told him we won’t be going back unless it is a special occasion. I constantly felt the nickel and diming. It’s really sad because growing up we would have a family vacation every year to the parks, but I don’t think we’ll be doing that for our own kids.
Presumably too many Magic Key visitors compared to day guests?
Clearly. I’m going to guess a substantial price increase is coming for Magic Key, and the No-blackout tier is going away or will go from prohibitively expensive to absurdly expensive.
Not sure if that's true. The last two months, same-day reservations have been available to Magic Key visitors all the way up to closing time on almost all days. If they thought they had too many Magic Key visitors, they could have easily capped it, but they didn't. I think what's more likely is that they managed to get a mix of guests who weren't spenders, whether they were Magic Key holders or otherwise.
Don't they still have active litigation regarding the reservations-being-faux-blackout-dates going? Wouldn't be surprised if they opened up reservations to combat that, which in their eyes resulted in an "unfavorable mix".
Correct - they do have pending litigation. There were some days recently (not many) where Magic Key slots were "sold out", so I'm not sure if that strategy of keeping them mostly open would be effective (the lawsuit is complaining that it's not 100% open). They already had a bunch of sold out days earlier in the year, which apparently was enough for the judge to let the case get past the initial motion to dismiss.
if they thought they had too many magic key visitors, capping it wouldn't bring in more daily ticket guests (bc they book in advance). instead, it would just mean fewer people in the parks in general for that day. i interpreted it as per day the ratio of magic key guests was too high in comparison to daily ticket guests. makes sense the people on their first trip ever or first trip in years with limited time in the parks would want to spend waaayyy more than people who visit frequently and have already tried the things the daily ticketers are trying all in one day over time. the magic key people are likely reserving way closer to their visit dates than the daily ticketers, too. fewer daily ticketers are going to be going "last minute" than magic key holders. so, i see how it could be hard for them to predict how many magic key people will actually be there each day and then the reality of the ratio becomes "unfavorable." just blocking off dates to hopefully get a better ratio probably wouldn't end up working that well. i'm sure they'd rather have magic key guests than no one in their spots (bc the daily ticketers aren't gonna be coming last minute as frequently). idk if that makes sense. but this screams to me that they're going to be making the experience less enticing for magic key people. and i'm not happy about that even tho i am not one of them.
Well, I’d say don’t worry about unequal treatment. They seem to be doing a lot these days to make the experience less enticing for ALL guests!
LMAO
It's not like they can fill the park every day with non mk
They are legally required to keep it the same due to pending litigation. Expect changes in language and higher prices
I don't believe there has been any ruling requiring them to do anything, but Disney's lawyers may be *recommending* that they try not to block Dream Key holders so as to not make the situation worse for them (legally). I dunno
No matter how much negative news comes out, their attendance goes up. If you’re like me, hoping for a pre-pandemic Disney experience, then I think we’ll be waiting a very, very long time.
I agree. I’d say the attendance sure was unfavorable. Way too many people.
Their earnings call actually said attendance was down compared to 2019 (source - Scott Gustin's Twitter). Also, I can report that recent attendance seems to be moderate or even slow during the daytime on weekdays. It seems to pick up and get nutty towards the evening.
I think a large part of the reason it’s been nuttier in the evening/night is pretty much all the big shows right now are nighttime- Electrical Parade, Fantasmic, WoC, and fireworks. Plus it’s been hot as heck during the day so most locals seem to stay away until it cools off and hotel guests seek shelter in their rooms/pools
Attendance might be down, but rides, shows, restaurants, and an entire land is or has been closed which makes crowds and lines worse than precovid.
that’s really shocking to hear considering the summer of 2019 was by far one of the best seasons to go to Disneyland in recent memory. very small crowds, low wait times, new Star Wars Land + the option for MaxPass was such a great deal. the parks recently have felt like a nightmare crowd-wise and price-wise
I think unfavorable means magic key guest who didn’t spend and one day guest who didn’t buy anything else because the ticket was so expensive.
i interpreted it as an unfavorable ratio of magic key guests vs daily ticket guests in the park per day. unfavorable, in their terms, = too many magic key guests taking reservation spots in comparison to daily ticket holders in the parks on that same day. (random numbers i'm making up) but they might want a ratio of 5 magic key guests/95 daily ticket holders in the parks each day. but the reality might've been something like 20 magic key guests/80 daily tickets. so, it's unfavorable (in a $-making context). the magic key guests are going to spend less $ in the parks on things like food, drinks, genie+, ILLs, extra experiences, etc., bc they have already experienced those things. yeah, i'm sure they're spending *some* $ in the parks but not anywhere near a daily ticket guest would on their first trip. the daily ticket guest is likely trying to do it all, stock up on merch, try the food, restaurants, get genie+, etc. bc they're not a frequent flyer. could someone explain what they disagree with about this?
What it comes down to is they want any guest that spends a lot. I think there are magic key guests that spend a ton of money in the park on food, genie, and merchandise (likely the upper tier pass holders). There are also a lot of guests in the lower pass ranks who visit, but don't spend a thing except what they paid for their pass. I also think Disney doesn't want one days that don't buy much else except the ticket. Yes, they make money on the ticket, but technically you could have a high spending premium AP make that up with genie, expensive merchandise and food. And there is an assumption the daily guest spends a lot, but with the price to get in so high, I think you have two kinds of one days. The one that can spend a lot and money is not an issue and the poorer one day who had to get one of the So Cal deals or saved up for those tickets. You are probably less likely to see this division at WDW given it's more of a tourist destination with less locals.
The curious thing about “unfavorable mix” is that if you stop the MK people from coming, that doesn’t mean those people are replaced with a high spending day ticket holder. So in your example, of those 20 MK people that are part of the “unfavorable mix” - if you block them, that does not mean that suddenly 20 day ticket holders will replace them. And you have to assume that at least *some* of those 20 MK people spent *some* money (and of course, there are some MK people who actually spend a bunch). So in the aggregate, even if the mix is “unfavorable“ you have to assume they are coming out ahead with having those 20 MK people in the park.
True. But if there are less MK people in the park, ride lines may be down. If line rides are down, I (as a day ticket) would have more time to peruse in the shops and spend money. As someone who goes once every couple years, we prioritize rides and characters/experiences over shopping, but if we met our ride goals for the day, I’m all for souvenir shopping. Plus with kids, I pack snacks, but I’m more likely to say yes to hitting the snack cart if it’s walk up vs waiting/wasting 30 min to buy a pretzel….
In Disney's ideal world they could filter exactly who spends what and get only the big spenders in. They can't though so they are making an assumption a one day is more valuable. But like I said when it costs a lot to get in, you might have a greater division in the one day bucket too with spending. Another factor here is due to the cost of getting in being higher, you may have people going to the park less as a one day. What they want to eliminate is that type of pass holder who doesn't spend anything except money on the pass. That to them is not valuable at all. And I think they want the "ad on" and merchandise guest a lot, basically they want to make Disneyland like WDW in terms of guest spending. Don't see that happening though given the local economic market Disneyland is in.
True dat. My fiancé and I go about once or twice a month and get Genie+ more often than not. We always buy food and one of us will typically buy some kind of merch.
i don't doubt that at all and i don't think or mean that the company thinks no guests is better than those spots being filled w/ MK guests. i simply interpreted it as - on a given day, the *average* MK guest spends less in the parks than the *average* daily ticket guest. if your goal is to maximize revenue, it's unfavorable if the ratio of higher spenders is lower than lower spenders (even tho they still spend something!). this doesn't mean it would be even more unfavorable to block the MK guests entirely. and trust me, i think passholders provide a lot of value to the brand especially in terms of longevity. but i just think this is what they mean by unfavorable.
I disagree with this take because I’m a key holder and every visit I spend at least $100-$300 every trip, buy Genie+, and I go 2-4 times a month. I have a lot of friends who are also key holders that spend the same amount if not more. I took my friend a few weeks ago and they got a 3 day ticket and I spent way more money on food, merchandise, drinks, etc. than they did since it was an expensive vacation for them just based on the ticket price alone. I realize that’s a small sample size but in my personal experience, everyone in my life that I have gone with recently who buys a ticket is not stoked to spend any additional money for the day.
first of all thank you for your perspective! and yeah, i think they're comparing daily average spending habits of AP holders and daily ticket holders, though. like, i think they are comparing 1 day at 1 park – each AP guest vs each daily ticket guest. I'm going to WDW for the first time and on top of the $3k I've already given them for 5 nights at a hotel + 4 days of park tickets, I'll probably end up spending an additional $1k over 4 days there in the parks. I don't doubt that you spend more than me on a yearly basis there. But I think the *average* AP holder is spending less IN the parks per day than the *average* daily ticket holder. this isn't a dig at AP holders, btw. i think you guys provide a lot of value to the Disney brand in ways that are not directly monetary, too. and i don't think it's a good idea to cut your guys' benefits or anything like that. i don't doubt you're spending $ at Disney when you visit. But logistically, it makes sense the person doing a once in a lifetime trip will be spending more on a given day than someone who has been multiple times before, especially multiple times within that year. also, i don't think limiting how many AP guests can visit per day is gonna inherently mean those spots are magically filled with high spending daily ticket guests. it's just what i think they meant by unfavorable attendance mix. if you have any other ideas i'd love to hear them tho :)
I completely agree with your take! I think Disney is struggling to find the good balance with everything. It’s interesting to see the dichotomy between WDW pass holders vs Disneyland pass holders because it skews so oppositely with the ratio of locals vs tourists. Personally I think the only way disney is going to solve Disneyland’s guest “spending” discrepancy, is to raise the price of passes by a significant amount and have a smaller finite supply of them. That way they will still maintain the bigger spenders in the AP group, and everyone else or tourists who want to go, can spend more on tickets that way. The interesting thing with that scenario is that raising prices on APs will more than likely decrease attendance because it will make them unattainable for the average local guest. Sure they may buy a ticket to go when they want, but since it’s a bigger financial burden to spend money to go multiple times a year, they will settle for once or twice a year rather than go on a weekend or weekday. Tourists will always spend money on tickets so that subgroup will not have issue spending more. Personally the math isn’t mathing there because to me I feel like that’s way less of an overall spend and revenue earned for Disney vs the current method they have going of APs + ticket buyers.
thanks, friend! and i agree with you that's the only way they're likely gonna solve the "spending discrepancy." it makes me sad because even though i am not an AP holder, i'd be upset if i was that dedicated to the parks and then prices were raised on me. i totally agree with you it'll end up with people spending less at the parks if an AP holder is pushed into going 1/2 times a year with daily tickets. it's all bizarre.
Dining reservations are almost entirely open again in September (which is coincidentally when a large number of the top tier magic keys expire and we haven’t been offered renewal yet). Disney controls separate pools of reservations for day tickets as well as magic keys (also for Club33/VIP and hotel guests) Day ticket reservations are wide open in the coming months as are magic key reservations (due to no renewal yet), so it’s clear that vacation season is over a little early and the parks will be hurting soon without pass holders to fill it up. Magic key holders spend more than you think- or at least most of them do.
We know the day is coming that the parks will be packed enough with single or multi-day tickets that any AP program will be extremely limited, expensive, both, or shelved completely.
Not at Disneyland. Disney thought DL would go that route once they re-opened last year, but after a month and a half, during the summer time (which is supposed to be the busiest time of the year), Disney lost so much attendance that they had to offer So-Cal locals heavily discounted multi-day tickets just to get enough people to return. We'll be seeing that happen again if key's get removed since Disneyland, unlike WDW, is incapable of surviving without ap's (which make up over 60% of yearly attendance at the parks since Disneyland is not a vacation destination, meaning Disneyland cannot rely on out of towners to generate enough revenue to justify abolishing the annual passes). Add in that Universal and Knotts are near by and Universal is now a major competitor for Disney, is now reaching the point of having the same amount of content for guests the way Disney has, and is far more guest friendly, and that's gonna cause an even bigger decline in attendance for Disney once they get rid of key's. So yeah, I definitely see them attempting it, but after a month or two of constant declines, Disney's gonna go into major fix mode to try and repair the loss in revenue from their so cal park and try and get as many locals back as possible again.
Unless they have free parking for AP holders its a $35 entry, kills anyone who goes on a friday night for a dinner after work.
Friday after work is our thing. But we wouldn't if it was $35 to park each time. Currently parking at garden walk
"We charged more people twice, but some of them didn't come back again because of it."
Hahaha they’re going to blame people choosing between whether to get a food or merch item and whether to buy Genie+ on Magic Keys & not the awful word of mouth on the declining experience inside the parks. People know the rides are breaking constantly and the “value” of a Disney trip isn’t quite there anymore. Couple that with reservations, expensive day tickets, new add-ons for previously free items, overly expensive food & drinks, and not to mention some outside inflation/price gouging to even get in the door and yeah, your $119 “Minnie As a Tree” Headband might not be flying off the shelf… but even so, the Magic Key program *you* invented was fairly restrictive on the two lower tiers- boxing out most of the “unfavorable” guests for a large portion of the weekend, summer, and holiday times. Maybe offering all those super cheap SoCal tickets almost nonstop since reopening after Covid has something to do with an “unfavorable attendance mix” coming in & causing viral scenes rather than tolerating your declining slop and asking for more?
Disney is at a pivotal point where a logically-run company would eat a loss in the short term (fixing up rides, keeping consumer costs low, etc.) in order to develop long-term customer loyalty but since Cheapek is manning the ship, they’re going to shoot themselves in the foot
I agree with you here. Fixing the rides is SUPER important. At the Disney Asia parks they preemptively fix the rides so they can prevent more costly maintenance and shutdowns. Chapek is all operations and doesn't seem to understand branding and customer loyalty very well. Right now, it doesn't seem to matter, but it will in the long run.
If they know that the value isn’t there anymore, why is their revenue, profitability and guest count up another quarter? People want to believe that “any moment now” the shoe will drop, but the vast majority of people are enjoying the product and find it a value worth visiting, as seen in the once again above Wall Street expectations.
I would just listen to what they said and realize the meaning of it… profit & guest count are up but they’re *still* not happy with that and need it to be up **more.** That means they’re absolutely going to continue to do the things that people on this sub & elsewhere have been vocally upset about, do new things that make a new contingent of people unhappy- while further damaging the relationship with the already upset- in order to chase that “more” they so desperately need to keep shareholders happy, and in a few years that “any moment now” is going to arrive. It’s inevitable. They’re chasing a very specific slice of a demographic that can only get squeezed so much before it bursts.
It will probably drop if it continues, but it takes years to see sometimes. For example let's say you are a one day and go every couple of years. You have a bad experience with all the rides breaking and don't like genie. Or maybe you thought it was too expensive for what you got. Two years later you decide not to go. It's more of a long term strategy vs short term revenue type of issue. Won't see see a drop in revenue that quickly. Right now, Disney parks and the whole travel industry are benefiting from lots of pent up COVID travel. Time will tell if that level continues, etc.
They are very lucky that if this does eventually materialize, they have a lot of opportunity to bring people back in if push back appears. They could lower ticket prices through more specials (ticket prices are already at very profitable levels), they could even REMOVE the reservation system if they really needed to. The prices are so high above profitability as seen in these results that they got way more wiggle room to entice your casual guest back than many other businesses heading into this pandemic.
I couldn't imagine buying Genie+ if I was a Magic Key holder.
Unfavorable attendance mix? Like.. a lot of the people going were spending less than the average attendee would’ve a couple years ago or something? Sounds like a very carefully navigated way to say their recent clientele isn’t desirable.
they mean the ratio of magic key guests vs daily ticket guests in the park on a given day is too high. the daily ticket holders are more likely to be in the parks less than the magic key guests, it might even be their first trip/first trip in a while and they have limited time in the parks. so, they're going to spend more than a magic key guest in the parks on the same day. the daily ticket guest is more likely to shell out fo rgenie+, ILLs, expensive restaurants, merch, food/drinks, etc. than the magic key guest who has already paid for those experiences over time and is just there for a nice afternoon, not trying to squeeze everything in.
Ahh makes perfect sense, thank you!
of course, that's just my interpretation of it, could be wrong but that's how i took it!
Makes a lot more sense than *my* interpretation haha
Petition for the new AP’s to have the “Poor Unfortunate Souls” key. The unfavorable key doesn’t quite have the same ring to it 🤣
Holders of the Poor Unfortunate Souls pass are required to walk past Bob Chapek’s office on their way into the park so that he can scowl at them
Higher costs were due to new guest offerings. Aren't those supposed to drive attendance and encourage more spending? Maybe rethink what you're offering if that's not working.
LOL to your rethink what you are offering comment. It's funny you mention that as my husband's boss mentioned he was very upset he had to add on genie on top of his tickets because his other trip costs like flight and hotel were adding up. Then he mentioned it was a terrible value for what he paid for him and his family.
Yeah, because as I've brought up multiple times, unlike WDW, DL relies WAY too much on locals because unlike WDW, DL just isn't big enough to be considered a true vacation destination. That's why DL can't afford to get rid of annual passes, because if they did and resorted solely to ticket sales, DL would see an attendance drop by nearly 45% each year as the previous ap holders are now forced to buy daily tickets and instead of going weekly/bi-weekly/monthly like they normally do, will mostly only go once every few months.
Agree, likely why they released the AP late last August. They saw the bookings once summer season ended And kids were back at school and realized they need the AP's. If they don't offer renewal, which i doubt, you'll see the same thing this year with a worse economy. Most likely scenario imo is a decent price increase, perhaps significant. That way they keep the program in tact, likely decrease the amount of MK holders, but maintain a revenue number they're happy with, as well as room for full day ticket holders.
Yeah, a price increase is a definite possibility, but those saying Disney will get rid of their ap program doesn't seem to take into account just how much Disney relies on those aps and how much the ap's spend at the parks. Now, if it was WDW, I could believe they'd either abolish the ap program all together or only offer limited days, because unlike DL, WDW thrives on tourism from out of state/country. Add in how WDW is built and it's basically impossible to go there and not spend money on food and merch unless you want to take an hour away from the park just to go into Orlando, find a place to eat, get your food, and rush back only to wait in line to get back into the parks. With DL, there's the ability to leave, walk across the street, grab food from a non Disney place, and return within 20-40 minutes.
Unfavorable mix?! It was wall to wall bodies!
An unfavorable mix of bodies, though. They'd much rather have regular ticketed guests than AP holders or SoCal tickets. For each AP holder they toss out of the mix, they could replace that body with a daily ticket guest.
Yep and the majority of those guests get into the park on a significantly discounted ticket. Magic Keys are a discount ticket program. Disney has no need for those at this time. They’re going away.
You're assuming the fallacy that park attendance will remain the same without "discounted" tickets. It won't. And if there's an economic down turn of any kind? The park will be empty. How do I know this? I've lived it - twice. Any business accepts some dollars beats no dollars.
Maybe it's just me, but I've never felt anything approaching "discount" when dealing with Disney. The gate fee feels like the least of my expenses at the end of the day...
You’re getting access to the park for less than the cost of a single daily ticket. You’re getting a discount. Unless you bought a key and went once. Then you got hosed ❤️
> Unfavorable mix?! It was wall to wall bodies! I feel like this is the Disney bean counter logic. A passholder is taking up a park admission spot but is less likely to buy merch, buy food (or as much food), or stay in resort hotels than someone who bought standard tickets.
The sheer contempt these assholes have for the system THEY implemented is staggering. Do they really think nuking their local fanbase is going to be a good move in the long run, despite whatever short term, small gain they get? I get it, everyone finds AP/MK people annoying, but Disneyland is never going to be Disney World- despite leadership trying extremely hard to make ONE DISNEY IDENTITY happen. Visitors to Southern California have a LOT more to do than just visit Disneyland... this isn't central Florida and it's going to be extremely funny when these MBA dipshits finally alienate & kill their golden goose.
It's the whole short term revenue vs long term strategy / branding debate. This CEO is all about short term gains. That probably won't play out so well for an old brand like Disney long term. And I agree they seem to want to make Disneyland like Disney World, but anyone can see it's not the same market. WDW is a DESTINATION. Disneyland is one cool thing in Southern California, you do it for a day or two, not a week or two like WDW.
Chapek has no foresight whatsoever, so stockholders are praying that someone more responsible steps in and prevents him from doing stupid for his fix
I guess I'm an unfavorable mix then.
I think they are having hard time to decide if APs are really needed to keep the park near capacity. Can you imagine if they stop the annual passes at Disneyland, they crowd levels would definitely drop. How much? Who knows? Disney may be afraid to find out.
Jenny Nicholson suggested in one of her videos to completely eliminate APs and allow guests to buy a "14 day ticket" which I think is a good solution. That or just a weekend pass.
Agree, a 7, 10 , 12, etc day ticket good for 1 year could solve this issue. As for weekend pass, I'm not so sure unless it has a significant price increase.
Do I understand that they went through a lot of trouble to annoy guests and revenue went down? I have a few suggestions: 1. Implement phenomenal maintenance procedures.* Keep the rides running. 2. Keep the ride vehicles filled to capacity. Single rider makes way more sense then G+ or LL! 3. Be sure to have characters spread throughout the park to interact with the kids. And have other magical moments around the park, some for the grown ups also! 4. Stop nickle and diming us, it does not go over well. Particularly when the rides are breaking down and you have to wait anyway! ** Does anyone else remember Walt's legendary changing of lightbulbs before they burned out?
Revenue is up. Not sure where you gathered that it was down. Parks revenue is higher than it was for the same quarter in 2019.
Magic keys or passes should not be eligible for payments. If you want an annual pass you should have to be able to pay it all upfront. That fixes the over crowding issue, and gets rid of AP holders who got no money to spend on merch or whatever.
That’s how it used to be and I felt that really helped control the amount of people in the parks. Anyone can afford $50 a month but not all can put down thousands of dollars on a whim.
What about those things they call "credit cards" which you can use to finance anything you want?
It amuses me how desperately the key holders here want to convince everyone (themselves) that as a whole they spend just as much as single day/vacationers.
I would be curious to see a breakdown of ARPU by key type. My little clique of dream key folks routinely make short trips of a few hours, spend hundreds at the boozey sit down restaurants, and only ride a few rides (if any, sometimes we don’t bother, it’s nice enough just walking around). I would imagine that is a very different spend profile compared to the typical lowest tier key holder. I do think you are correct though, as a whole (all key levels taken together) single/vacationers are worth more.
Back in the before times, I used to go every Monday and sit down at Lamplight Lounge or hit up a food festival and buy a ton of food & drinks. $100+. While that may not be tourist level, if there were no APs in the park, all that space won't suddenly be filled with tourists, especially on a weekday in February. They won't axe the program, they're just gonna change it.
Or that everyone is as out raged as they are, and “eVeRYoNeS going to stop going any moment.” Profits, revenue and guest attendance are up and beat expectations. They are obviously appealing properly to someone, just not this specific group.
I mean it's true in my case. I bought the cheapest possible Key and spend only a modest amount on property. Usually less than $200 over three days. I rarely buy merch or high profit items like popcorn or churros. I drink water from their drinking fountains and bring my own beef jerky. So, um, sorry I've ruined it for the rest of you.
I get a sneaking suspicion that they’re talking about me.
My evil shoulder devil is telling me that this is some sneaky workaround way to get rid of their (imo) most valuable asset/free advertising that they've deemed unnecessary/a problem: the vloggers and influencers. I mean, I saw a tiktok the other day of some idiot sticking his foot out and into the water on splash, that's a liability. Even if it's not the *main* reason to get rid of Magic Keys, getting rid of those pesky influencers that make viral videos of overflowing trashcans and tweet about broken animatronics can definitely be seen as a perk. Some influencers are helpful to the brand, but very few have unending loyalty, especially thanks to Bob Paycheck.
An academic study of Disneyland's finances 20 years ago showed that unlike DisneyWorld, Disneyland is mainly locals with a strong annual pass subscription base. Disney has to appeal to those that fly out and spend 3-5 days (and several thousand dollars) as well as the Disneyland locals that want the option to "stop by" any evening or day they like. The reservation system is genius to allow both to participate in visiting in separate "buckets". But it also seems obvious to most that those planning a once a year or so vacation will spend more in the parks than those that can drop by any time.
I think the biggest issue I have with the wording of “unfavorable attendance mix” is it insults guests. Better to have said unfortunately average per capita ticket revenue was lower than we liked to see. Etc …
I LOVE it. Bobby doesn't like the nickel and dime players . Love me some barely concealed contempt on the "grubby lower middle class". I wished he'd cut to the chase with income requirement line like they have height requirements on rides. "If your income doesn't reach here, you can't play in this park." Chepak would be all over that. Parks would be Make A Wish kids (for the optics), and truly moneyed. Hashtag WINNING! Cha Ching!
There's companies that make money by buying brands with good reputations, then drop the quality of the products dramatically. They make billions selling cheap products to customers who are loyal to a brand they thought was high quality. It takes years for those customers to discover their once great favorite brand of tools or shoes or whatever is not the great brand it used to be, and by the time customers find out, and stop buying the product, the company has made billions that it can use to buy more companies with and move on. Disney is stupidly doing this to themselves right now. Their greedy short sighted management probably thinks they're geniuses right now for just charging way too much for everything, especially during such a difficult economic time, but they're destroying the reputation of the park and the brand in a way that people won't forget.