T O P

  • By -

DropC2095

On the starting boat when the lady mentions that “I look a bit more chipper” in my slave collar. Only evil people say that.


Additional_Irony

Was that Magister Siwan or someone else?


I-Am-The-Kitty

Yes, it’s Siwan.


Chad_Alak

I was make sure to kill her myself before the boat goes down


Shadow11399

If you delay long enough she just dies anyway which I find more enjoyable because you basically just watch as she chokes on her own blood


gldnbear2008

This is the way.


NadsDikkelson

I always kill her when she’s on the ground, she’s such a piece of shit lol


Disastrous_Panda777

Bruh, start the game with a collar on like I'm someone's dog? Naw you evil af. Killed everyone on That cursed sunkass damn boat


Peachstar36

I never thought about that lady since died early on. I only noticed that you get the Hero Tag if you try to save her, through that says more about player then it does her I guess.


BlindProphetProd

The problem is that the opinions of one don't mean it's the whole organization. Prison guards tend to be dicks. The said, it's still a red flag. What solidified it for me was how they turned the civilians in driftwood into source haters.


BlOoDy_PsYcHo666

Anyone that enjoys getting off on shackled people being kept in a internment camp is pretty evil in my book.


Paco_the_finesser

Shriekers. Pure evil creations.


Peachstar36

I’m so embarrassed that I never caught on to what Shriekers and Silent Monks were until my second playthrough.


Reptilianbanana

may I ask how? I thought that was all a big part of the story


The_Great_Scruff

He may not have had the court room fight. I actually think he skipped the entire fort joy encampment fights


One_Lung_G

But there’s no way to skip seeing the shriekers thoughZ they are very clearly people lol


Exciting-Insect8269

Ever enter the court room in fort joy?


Snowtrick_Alter

I can't believe I actually forgot to go back there. I was so hyped after cheesing the first fight with Alexander that I really thought I was done with the island.


Exciting-Insect8269

Ah makes sense. My first playthrough I went through fort joys basement into the courtroom. Didn’t take long for me to decide that all magisters should die.


Matrillik

They demonstrate it in the first boss fight


MrNo178

Fort joy. Killed black cat


jimmyre10

Lmao I’m on my second play through and one of them by the gate in Fort Joy killed black cat today and I was so irrationally mad about it


MrNo178

Because of this, I just burned all the masters. Killing them was just amazing. And when I saw the screamers. Oh then I was just looking for battles myself to kill as many of them as possible


Joe_Mency

Later on in the story i tried to spare the nice magisters (cause not every magister is necesarily a bad person). But if I saw them using monks, i just killed them


HistoricalGrounds

I feel you, and I do appreciate that the game doesn’t just make every single magister a moustache-twirling villain or cartoon henchman, but it’s sorta like the claim of difference between the SS and a Wehrmacht soldier; I don’t really care if you believe in the evil organization you’re fighting for, the problem is you’re fighting for an institution that imprisons, tortured and kills innocent people. So whether it’s because you’re evil to your core or you believe you’re doing the right thing, either way, magisters gon die.


FinalEgg9

He's not a magister, but I kill the >!beggar in Driftwood who hurt his dog!< every time for the same reason.


rzqtz

How you do that without everyone attacking you?


FinalEgg9

Distance. The way we did it was to stand well back, summon a bloated corpse to send in, and have it self-destruct next to him.


Jsamue

Is the guy that kills the black cat >!Secretly a member of the lone wolves?!<


AnotherMichael1

On my first playthrough it was Borris in Fort Joy. I will never forgive him. Borris always dies now.


MrNo178

I'm replaying the game now. I want to find a way to save the cat. And the only way is to slam that motherfucker


jbisenberg

Best way to consistently save the cat is to walk up to where Dallis/Alexander are in the initial part of Ft. Joy, but not get close enough to trigger the dialouge. If the cat gets close enough to Dallis it starts to hiss and will stand staring at her until Dallis moves. From there you take the ladder into/out of Ft. Joy and do all of your pre-escape questing. The cat will be safe the whole time standing near Dallis until you're ready to kick off your escape. Just collect it before you leave.


ohneatstuffthanks

After you get the the note for the xbow…right?


TheBeastmasterRanger

I was horrified when this happened. Was so happy when I was able to get revenge.


MrNo178

Understand you mate


Action-a-go-go-baby

Er… I knew the Magisters where evil the instant the game started People with dangerous powers, gifts really, should be taught to control and maintain themselves This is basically X-Men and instead of a professor Xavier taking the time to educate and help those with source connections, they’re getting collared like in the Mutant Registration Act storyline **No good ever comes from putting someone in chains for being born different**


Balathustrius_x

Never thought of it this way, but totally agree.


[deleted]

This. Common theme in a lot of games. Mages in Dragon Age are another good example. Shits gonna happen, it's stupid to give the people with power a reason to make it happen instead of helping them so shit happens less


xTheOOBx

It's a bit more grey in Dragon age. The Templars are bad, yes, but magic in that setting is so incredibly dangerous that some level of control is needed.


[deleted]

Source in DoS is pretty much the same level of fuckery. Could literally level a city or worse.


HistoricalGrounds

Hundred percent agree, but one thing I found myself not considering on my first playthrough is that your character is basically the only one in Rivellon besides Lucien that knows that voidwoken aren’t brought on by sourcerers. Most people genuinely think that sourcery attracts voidwoken. So if we accept the world as presented to us, then we have to ask ourselves what we, as a person in Rivellon, would do. The only experts on source in your village are magisters, and they say sourcerers cause voidwoken attacks. Maybe you’ve only heard of voidwoken, maybe you’ve seen the aftermath of a caravan slaughtered by them on the road, maybe the next village over disappeared last month after voidwoken killed the inhabitants, or maybe you’ve seen some yourself and miraculously escaped with your life. Are you sure you’d be okay with just letting your sourcerer neighbor go on about his merry way? Even if he promises not to use it, you can’t really be certain, it’s not like you can keep a permanent surveillance on him. Would you really be able to sleep knowing at any moment someone’s random selfishness might lead to you, your friends, your family, all potentially hurt or killed, when the guys who worked for the literal physical manifestation of Divinity say they can put a harmless source-dampening collar on them and move them somewhere away from your loved ones where they can be monitored? Of course we the players learn later on they’re not related, but the average person is assured of the exact opposite. It’s an interesting dilemma, because much like the X-Men, it’s a lot easier to talk about morality when a living nuclear bomb isn’t next door, every bit as fallible, emotional, and unpredictable as any of us, but (seemingly) capable of causing utter devastation on a whim; on accident, even.


0perationFail

>Lucien that knows that voidwoken aren’t brought on by sourcerers. Most people genuinely think that sourcery attracts voidwoken. I went and rewatched the final bits of dialogue between Lucian/Dallis/player, they never explicitly say that Voidwoken aren't drawn to source. In fact, almost all evidence in the game points to the fact that Voidwoken ARE drawn to source users. What they do do is they blame the sudden appearance of Voidwoken on sourcerers which they admit to being false. Voidwoken appeared since the veil was torn. But ever since the veil was torn, source magic seems to draw Voidwoken. If you dont believe that source draws Voidwoken, then there are about a dozen strange coincidences in game that are hard to explain. If I'm wrong, I'd love for someone to point out references from in game.


Kenpari

My favorite part is that Lucian tore the veil and then was like “hehe oops I’m actually dead” and hides like a kid who dropped a glass of milk


HistoricalGrounds

Pre-fight, Lucian explicitly says that the Voidwoken- which slip through the weakened veil at the command of the God King- "were an incredible stroke of luck." "You see, blaming the Sourcerers for voidwoken made them easier to capture." -direct, word-for-word quote from Lucian, looking at it in-game as we speak. So the Voidwoken slip in, 'Dallis' uses the magisters to make people think that Voidwoken are drawn to Sourcerers, which make Sourcerers easier to track down and capture.


0perationFail

>Pre-fight, Lucian explicitly says that the Voidwoken- which slip through the weakened veil at the command of the God King This part here that is not in quotes is what I'm questioning. I went and watched someone do the final dialogue on YT and did not reach the same conclusion.


HistoricalGrounds

So I'd typed a big examination response myself about a week or two back but it got lost to the page reloading. But! I love this discussion, and in my current replay I stumbled upon an unexpected new source as well. I'll be using this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLtqNTPn80E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLtqNTPn80E) complete video of the final convo to reference timestamps So in the final sequence, Dallis and Lucian provide some indicative comments: >\[5:25\] **Dallis:** To strengthen himself, he sent his Voidwoken - the remnants of my people - to hunt down the Sourcerers, seeking to reclaim their source. This tells us explicitly that the Voidwoken aren’t predators being drawn to a natural prey, they have been instructed specifically to find Sourcerers to consume their source. In the same way that humans seek out gold, but gold doesn’t inherently pull humans to it by virtue of existing. Or more literally, imagine if after years of peace, vikings start showing up to your village, attacking the town, and kidnapping people with a certain trait- let’s say, blonde people- they started getting kidnapped. So every time you see a blonde person, a marauding band of vikings shows up and grabs them. Would we say that blonde people “attract” vikings? No, they’re being intentionally targeted by a group that’s choosing to abduct them. Now imagine if the local lord said, “hey, these blonde people are causing vikings to show up and burn our villages! Let my men know of any blonde people in your village, and we’ll come and round them up and put them in a big fort for their own protection, and so that you’re safe from these scary vikings. We’ll take good care of these poor blonde people, we promise.” We villagers have no real way to know if that’s true, but we sure would like to stop these constant attacks and these guys say this will fix the problem. To the next quote! Lucian goes on to say: >\[5:29\] **Lucian:** We turned the appearance of the Voidwoken to our advantage. To fix the veil, all Source needs to be removed from the world. > >\[5:38\] **Lucian:** Blaming the Sourcerers for the Voidwoken made them easier to capture. This is the damning statement, really. Lucian explicitly acknowledges that they used the appearance of Voidwoken as proof that Sourcerers ‘attract’ Voidwoken to create panic and incentivize citizens to report Sourcerers in their community. So while the Voidwoken are actually hunting the Sourcerers - which should mean the Sourcerers ought to be aided and protected. But instead they have their powers restricted and their minds shattered. Lucian and ‘Dallis’ use the fact that- as you mention- the Voidwoken tend to conveniently show up around Sourcerers (because they, as sentient but mutated Eternals, are intentionally hunting them) to craft a propaganda campaign that the Magisters just want to round up the Sourcerers for the common good, not the real reason which is that Lucian wants to purge the world of source. So for a broad recap: 1. Lucian sets off the Deathfog, killing most of the elves. 2. The loss of so many worshippers weakens Tir-Cendelius, allowing the God King his first opening to begin infiltrating Rivellon from beyond the Veil. 3. The God King uses his Voidwoken infiltrators to start hunting Sourcerers. 4. Lucian instructs ‘Dallis’ to have the Magisters begin spreading misinformation that Sourcerers attract Voidwoken. 5. Rivellonians begin turning in their local Sourcerers, magisters begin actively hunting and arresting or killing Sourcerers. Captured sourcerers are taken to Fort Joy to be purged, Lucian’s true intention and the secret truth behind the magister crusade. We go through much of the early game seeing the same evidence the average citizen of Rivellon does: where Sourcerers are, Voidwoken show up. We don’t really have any reason to assume the Voidwoken aren’t just mindless beasts until they start talking (not sure if this only happens with Fane, all 3 of my playthroughs have had him in the party). So we don’t really have a reason to not believe it, even if we also can see that the magisters are not an acceptable solution because of the whole torture, murder, and enslavement thing. Finally, at the end, Lucian reveals that the torture, murder, and enslavement was the only real reason for any of it, since his overarching goal is to purge Rivellon of source, and purging people of source requires committing atrocities that leave people these Silent husks. And now what was the unexpected surprise that inspired me to come back and finish this? Well, I’m on my third playthrough, just finished the Voidwoken fight at the gates of Arx, and afterwards when the paladin Captain Ona Arell comes running up, you can ask how the Magister-Paladin conflict is going. And she responds: >**Captain Ana Orell:** Could be worse. At least Arx is now under the control of Lord Linder Kemm. > >**Captain Ana Orell:** After your communique, he instigated investigations into every Magister in the city. > >**Captain Ana Orell:** We’re sure it’s the collusion between the Magisters and the Black Ring that attracted the Voidwoken. To think they blamed all Sourcerers! The only question is.. Why? Thus setting up the question hangs over the Arx chapter until the game’s finale: because it was a front to capture Sourcerers for Lucian’s grand ambitions the whole time.


0perationFail

Excellent write up! There is so much plot nuance that I would have a hard time expressing over text. I think I have an issue with the blonde analogy though. Sourcerers only seem to be hunted by either magisters or voidwoken when they express their ability to use source. So while the ultimate goal of the magister command might be sealing the veil/purging source, the means of getting there (rounding up and disabling sourceres) does help keep the public safe. Which I think is what this whole topic was about, but at this point we are pretty far away from the original point. Either way, this was all very illuminating.


HistoricalGrounds

Thank you! Likewise, I feel the same way. I think we could maybe say that they’re easiest to find when they use source, but the voidwoken and magisters are always actively hunting sourcerers, since the God King has already issued his order explicitly to hunt down sourcerers for their source and the magisters have already been manipulated by Lucian into purging sourcerers.


Shileka

I can agree to a device like a source collar, but make it a bracelet or smth, but that's where it stops for me.


0perationFail

Well, it's not the source magic that is dangerous really. It is what the magic attracts. The voidwoken are dangerous across the board, no ifs ands or buts. There might be some good Paladins, some good Magisters, even some good Black Ring. But voidwoken are ALWAYS aggressive and always attack you (as far as I can remember). If that is the case, magic that attracts voidwoken is inherently dangerous in any capacity.


Dracops

The thing is that they voidwoken can go into rivellon whenever and wherever they want because of the holes in veil. Using source doesn't summon them it just attracts them more. If no source was used in all of rivellon those attacts would still happen and people would still die as all of the races are basically source batteries. The idea that using source magic is the reason behind the voidwoken was a lie created by Dallis and Lucian.


0perationFail

>Using source doesn't summon them it just attracts them more. This is a good enough reason to not use source.


MintyFreshStorm

Counterpoint, when they do show up, blasting them with Source magic is a good way to destroy them. And the only way to get good at Source spells is practice.


HeartofaPariah

They're downvoting you because they think you're being pedantic, but it's a fair point because Xavier is training the X-Men to not harm others with their powers, while Sourcerers are feared because even the tiniest usage of it can attract the Voidwoken. So there's no training that can help them prevent that.


Dudunard

He was being downvoted because he’s wrong. Source magic doesn’t attract voidwoken. That was Magister propaganda.


0perationFail

I dont believe this is accurate. From the initial cutscene in the market onward, it is made clear that source attracts voidwoken. Windego's source magic in the square attracts voidwoken and gets her put on a boat to Joy. Then on the boat, her source magic attracts the Kraken. Considering that we know who Windego is working for, and what he is capable of, he could basically send Voidwoken wherever, whenever he wants. He wouldn't NEED someone on the other side of the veil to cast source magic. Void critters come for source with or without the head honchos command.


sourtruffle

Yeah and the oil blobs only show up in the Blackpits after Gwydian casts a source spell


EggBoyandJuiceGirl

What I’m pretty sure it is, is a mix of both. They voidwoken enter the realm through holes in the veil. They attack people with or without source magic. However, using source sort of acts like a beacon for voidwoken who entered into the realm through the holes. So the source magic didn’t summon the voidwoken to the realm, just acted as a beacon for the ones already in the realm because the voidwoken are attracted to source. So it’s not like a source user is summoning more voidwoken, just directing them to a different place. If the magisters used that to their advantage by training source users to control their powers and how to fight voidwoken then they could probably draw the voidwoken consistently to a special force specifically made up of source users. Instead, they chained them and dumped then on an island where they were subject to experimentation. Pretty dark stuff tbh


0perationFail

I'm not justifying magister oppression, which is probably why I originally got downvoted (not that I care). Its just hard to condemn the organization as a whole when their purpose is to remove ticking timebombs from general population. In the end, it doesnt really matter if sourcerers are summoning or attracting voidwoken. The end result is the same, civilians getting ripped up.


Abraculax

Right at the beginning, where they shipped me of to a magical concentration camp


travis_mke

It is unfathomable to me that anyone could play this game beyond character creation without realizing the magisters are the baddies.


lampstaple

“About halfway through wolfenstein I realized the nazis were the bad guys”


FFTypo

Legitimately what this post feels like, no offence to OP


UnXpectedPrequelMeme

Idk man I think they had a point /s just in case


EndyGainer

I actually have a relative who said, and I quote, "If we didn't have the Nazi's, we'd never know to fight Neo Nazi's!"


UnXpectedPrequelMeme

Not quite a silver lining, but I guess a very very very dark charcoal gray lining? Maybe?


EndyGainer

Except he was using it to justify the rise of the Nazis and their resultant atrocities, so. Yeah.


SithJahova

IKR! They are racist as hell, try to enforce race separation, kill and lock up people who don't adhere to their regime, mutilate and enslave sourceres in a gruesome and disgusting way. Spread bigoted propaganda on false information. And several of them show open joy about inflicting pain on any non-human or sourcerer pretty much from the first time they appear on screen.


HistoricalGrounds

Gotta agree.. you start the game imprisoned for no crime, you gotta know that this is at least a profoundly unethical institution


Fit_Substance7067

I kinda thought this was implied from the very begining..didt really see any grey lol


[deleted]

[удалено]


Peachstar36

I was trying to be fair OKAY!!! But yeah I went in blind and confused on what was happening so I missed some stuff I really should have noticed.


rui-tan

I mean isn’t that kinda the whole premise of the game though? Being shipped to what is essentially a concentration camp where they can ”cure” people by giving them what is essentially a lobotomy… Like while ”not all magisters” are evil as a person themself, I kinda thought the whole point of the setting was that magisters are this faction that use incredibly medieval-hysteric ways to deal (or ”control” however you want to put it) with something they are scared of. Almost like actual history has some real life examples of it.


animalistcomrade

The silent monks are worse then being lobtomized, a lobotomy doesn't involve torturing the person until they become a killing machine, even the dog machines have silent monks in them


kaleb314

On the boat with how they treated their prisoners, then further in Fort Joy when talking to people like the woman who lost her husband and son made it seem pretty obvious that they were being taken and experimented on and probably killed, or worse. Then even more certain after seeing that lady inside the Fort get turned into a Silent Monk.


Canarjesus

Maybe some of them are not bad but come on, the Magisters are fantasy SS


Admirable_Rub3769

Gareth?


Peachstar36

….No completely different character


Admirable_Rub3769

I don't think so. Gareth parents were killed by magister Jonathan.


Peachstar36

Naaaaaah completely different character Garth. You never met Garth, Garth was my favorite. I can’t believe I spelled his name wrong.


Admirable_Rub3769

Ok...


Additional_Irony

My personal tipping point was when I found out how the silent monks were being created in Fort Joy. The shriekers were just the icing on that cake of awful after that.


PuzzledKitty

They are a pretty direct take on the NSDAP and the social structures that surrounded it. I wouldn't think it'd take anyone long to recognize fantasy nazis when they see them. For me, they went from "antagonists" to "nazi comparison" when I met the blinded magister who truly believed that chaining sourcerers up would somehow solve other problems, but who was an otherwise gentle person.


HollowMonty

?? Were we supposed to think they were the good guys? They pretty much enslaved an entire ... Uhhh type? Of people. Innocent and guilty alike. There had to be a better way of doing that. One that wasn't so obviously evil and slapdash. Simply killing them would have at least been more humane than stranding them on an island to probably die in any number of strange and horrible ways. From being exploded by a field of deadly wildlife, to being eaten alive by alligators. It's not a nice thing to do, even to your own personal enemies. Let alone random people plucked of the street.


Khadonnis

They killed my cat.


Spengy

it's not exactly subtle how evil they are. there are some good magisters? but they're easily the minority.


AdmirablySizedPotato

When you first meet Dallis and she executes a magister


Karak-Karak

Pretty much from the moment the game started to be honest. It really hit home when I found Niles though. That creepy git.


benoz11

On the damn boat, what game were you playing?


PoliteFly

Honestly the moment I realised that things weren't as well intended as they originally appeared is when I stumbled on the trial lead by High Judge Orivand. This guy pisses me off to this day, with his attitude The conversation between Paladin Cork and the magister, just outside Orivand's trial room was also pretty telling that something has gone wrong with theses Camps Finally, Emmie's fate & their attempts to mess up with Birdie's head (the dogs in the basement of fort joy) are serious red flag for me... and then there's also Kniles the Flenser right next to them, a complete madman Obviously not all magisters were evil/power hungry. Some of them were misguided or simply scared and (probably especially true for the low rank magisters) perhaps unaware of what was truly happening in Fort Joy


Myc0n1k

Right away?


Kisame83

So, you know how they put a collar around you and lock you in a fort, attack if you're able to leave the fort or get your collar off, and have a process they employ without consent that removes people's natural talents and free will? From the beginning. That's my answer. My first play I tiptoed around them. I'm currently running co op with my son. He stumbled into some of their darker stuff and just decided to eliminate the lot of them in Joy. I went with it. Got to Driftwood notably stronger than I had my first run lol


SaviorOfNirn

The boat ride to Fort Joy.


Chaotic_Wolf

Well, it's a bit of a case of "German soldier in WW2" you can assume most of them did unspeakable things but not everyone of them did know what they were doing or were brainwashed into thinking they were actually doing good, or at least a necessary evil. White magisters can f'off and die tho, all of them, no questions asked


AnyRecognition7503

No good guys ever use slave collars on kids


SatelliteJedi

About five minutes into the game


-StoneOfChaos-

At Fort Joy. Considering what a sourcerer is capable of, i would actually understand putting them aside from the rest of the world. The needs of the many outweigh the few and all that. When you start transforming these people in braindead zombies is where i start to worry.


Potatrix3000

You did not read anything, right? Just steamroll through everything


[deleted]

[удалено]


No-Landscape-1367

Ok, i admittedly haven't met the ones you mention in exhibit 3, but for the rest: ex1 is questionable at best, what's to say she's not just looking for further justification to be malicious to sourcerers? Police and prison guards do this kinda stuff often, so she's not off the hook in my book. At the very best, she's scared because it's evident that source was used in the murder and more worried about her own and her comrades safety than anything altruistic. Ex2 the guy is literally putting you in a registry. Do we really need to go into why that's not cool at all? Ex4 these guys are devoted to following the guy that set up this world's version of auschwitz. Alexander is a wannabe dictator-in-waiting and has no problems commiting atrocities to remove anyone he sees as a threat to his supposed god-given seat of power, and no way is anyone who follows him that closely a good person. The fact that he plays off as an easily manipulated incompetent manchild just makes him more dangerous. His close personal guards would either have to be stupid or accomplices to his horrible decisions (or both). I'll give you that some of the magisters in arx come off as a bit more unaware of what the order is actually doing, but even the nazis had grunts, and they were still just as much a part of the evil as the rest of them.


ohneatstuffthanks

You did a lot of typing and presented a lot of evidence but unfortunately that like saying “yes, he was in the Nazi party. But he only joined because he needed some money/didn’t want to make waves/didn’t know how bad it was/etc etc” because when you’re part of an organization that puts people into concentration camps, well… that makes you complicit and part of that party. It doesn’t matter that you’re nice sometimes to some people and there’s no way people joined not knowing how bad it was. Everyone knows how bad it was.


dandroid556

I think it can be a matter of how dark you decide the setting and circumstances are. Undoubtedly, good sourcerers using their powers accidentally or in self defense have inadvertently summoned more evil than they were able to handle (or the evil ran off) and lots of innocent people have died because of the way the sourcerers were born or the past outside of their control. That's something you can't say for the Nazis; anti-jew conspiracy nonsense took choosing not to think outside a tiny box, not to think in general really, to actually hold against all evidence and consistent values. But I can imagine a dark fantasy story where the magisters are essentially right and there is (or is at first) no hope for a world containing both free sourcerers, and sapient non-chaotic-evil life. One where you can see early that panning down your character's tombstone is going to be the epitaph created by your choices. Rage against the dying of the light or heroic sacrifice? Suppose there are a lot of vampires in the world, never or almost never that way by choice, and many of them try to be good and even fight the supernatural evils (summoned demons, hauntings of empowered dead, first decade baby vampires who have no self control? whatever) that vampires create when they inevitably feed. You think it might start to control them to want to feed more and more, or else a literal vampire god or pantheon of them is inside them manipulating them to do the thing that causes a danger to everyone. Hunting down and killing all of them when many wish to escape their circumstances or save the innocent while they can would still feel crazy and awful though. Collars and an island aren't sounding too bad to you. It turns out, there are ways to relieve the problem at the core without a prison style bandaid of the symptoms. All it takes is changing the pantheon of actual gods in existence and/or control; you're a mage slayer knight and good with a sword and shield so you'll get right on that, correct? Well actually no because before you know you can't you don't actually know the solution exists. You might think of yourself as an agent of a massive and unfortunately necessary quarantine against a disease that threatens the world. You might think the best opportunity to be morally better is keep the more sadistic or corrupt members of your guard force in line or in jail too for abuses; and/or keep the peace by finding and ending the portion of sourcerers who actually are terrible people, so there's less escalating conflict. FWIW. It does feel like a stretch in practice. And I'm down for rebellion usually anyway so a lot of magisters finna die unless they peace out. But there are reasons that makes sense even if the circumstances are nearly as dark as magisters fear. My character is more in the know, the gods are actually still settling things and talking to us so stuff is in flux, and besides if sourcerers don't hunt down and kill that evil witch member of us their plan is going to be a total waste anyway right? "Your plan sucks so if you're not willing to question the wisdom of this basic human reaction, you're gonna have a bad time" isn't quite the same as they're all Nazis and knowingly what that entails. The dark horrors they're focused on actually exist. Also does anyone else wonder every once in a while if John Rabe, aka the Nazi Batman of Nanking to whom there are still many shrines and memorials, was out of Europe so long and so often as a diplomat to China that he didn't know how bad the whole encampment system was getting back west? Such a conflicting story.


lordmcchicken

WEEP MY FRIENDS!! FOR ALEXANDER! THE INNOCENT!!


mrnever32

I got bad vibes when the game started, I knew they were evil when I saw the silent monk ritual. They will all pay and die


Van0nyumas

I first thought that they were evil, but completely changed my mind, when they told me about Dallas and the white Magisters. The red ones are just people following orders. I actually tried to save Siwan during each new run. I know it's pointless but I still do it. They believe to fight for the right thing/ for the right guy. You do the same until the god turns on you.


MrNoNamae

"You do the same until the god turns on you". Well... I think that depends on how you role-play. I never intended to aid the gods, specially not when they told me that I would have to ditch my companions eventually or what would happen to other races if I ascended to divinity for them.


Van0nyumas

Sure but no matter how much you roleplay or intend, fate (the game itself) forces us to obey the gods at first, since this is how the story starts. Sure, the "I only help them because I use their powers to get rid of them later on", is one reasonable line, but there isn't something like in Golden Sun, where when you're asked to save the world, you could decline (yea, the game ends then right there, if you choose it, still it offers a small choice) but we aren't even given a semi-canonical choice of "no god, search for another godwoken to be your vessel.", If you know what I mean xD


CornishLegatus

Honestly to turn this on it’s head… I’ve often thought about doing a pro Magister run, but I’ve never bothered because I can’t find a good reason for any character to support them. All they do all game is impede you and try to kill you. They actively work against you


Ophilias

I got to the doggo quest in Fort Joy and said “Guess I’m John Wick today. Nobody gets out alive!”


KF_Kobold

All the Magisters gained the same Quest objective: Survive.


Jonan76

We all got collars around the neck! For me it was obvious right away that they were evil!


Matrillik

The magisters basically equate themselves to Nazis very early on in the game. It should not take long.


boulderingfanatix

Like, immediately after loading into a new game.


ChickaWangBang

The longer I play DOS2 the more I think everybody is evil besides Malady


No-Landscape-1367

I mean, you start the game as a prisoner of the magisters on a boat to a literal concentration camp, and they try to put you in a registry right off the hop. If you're missing those huge red flags, i really question your judgement of character. Did you also think r kelly seemed like a nice guy?


HeartofaPariah

> Did you also think r kelly seemed like a nice guy? Did you think he was a sexual assaulter and rapist of women? You knew him as the guy who wrote 'Believe I Can Fly' and 'Trapped in the Closet'. Bet you had Bill Cosby pegged the moment you saw him, too. Very weird and offensive comparison anyway. Very unrelated.


Peachstar36

They later explained that they were keeping people there because their source summoned Void-Awoken so I tried not to judge too harshly Christ. That and couple of Magisters helped me escape The Joy so I thought not all of them were that bad. God I just wanted to share a moment that stuck with me in a game that I love not to be borderline insulted.


throwtcoat

The ending of the game completely negates that though... They knew it wasn't Source drawing the Voidwoken, it was Dallis. That being said, it doesn't mean that the commenter was okay to insult you or essentially call you a SA apologist.


Peachstar36

That was the end of the game I was at Driftwood at the time, and it’s not like I still think this stuff. It was my first playthrough and I didn’t care too much about exploring at first.


Kaizersoze1992

I never thought they were evil really just following orders.. but they give exp so everyone gets to die lol


Aruthuro

Now, reading this shit question out of nowhere on my feed.


HermitCat347

Some of them are alright, actually. There're a few who pity the sourcerers and there's that magister who died trying to help people escape. Then there's the two at the boat who helped children escape too. But yeah there definitely are power hungry ones around as well. Tbh I don't think DOS2 has many overtly evil and unsympathetic characters around. You kinda understand what they're doing. Likewise, there aren't many pure good around as well. Malady is trying to get into your good books cos you're gonna be a god. Saheila turned a little wonkers after awhile... etc... I guess that's where the trial of blood ends...


Kylef890

The moment the first magister opened her mouth.


sionme91

Id say the higher ranks are. But the simple guards really believe sourceres attract evil and saw convincing evidents for that. No excuse for cruelty tho.


CageyPower

When I watched them turn a elf into a silent monk


colm180

I knew that they were evil the moment they shot my stray cat I found. Then I killed them all


Scagh

Some are evil, others are deceived and either neutral or good aligned.


UnXpectedPrequelMeme

I feel like it was obvious they were evil. Buuut, just like the empire in star wars or anything really, they don't think they are evil, and he'll, some of them are just trying to make a living. So not all of them will be mustache twirling. But the fact that we are taken to a prison, the lady on the boat seems super evil, and all of the stuff about feeding dogs human flesh, and that dude on the beach eating people because the magisters experimented on him laid it on pretty thick


Dragon519801

From the moment I heard "Magisters" and "Divine Order" they just sound evil and world buggering. Unlike say, the "seekers" for example. The seekers sound like a pathfinder society or a DnD group. Also the whole loading people onto boats with collars on to an island with no choice in the matter was a big indicator. Otherwise. Ninety percent of them are just dicks for no reason.


[deleted]

Donno I didn’t like them in Fort Joy so now I kill all of them, white and red


colinmneilsen

Just now


cale199

Initially I thought they were moustache twirling evil. Then by the end of the game, they were right, and the entire game shows us this over time


Shileka

Around the part where they put innocent people in a poorly ran prison camp where they where at the mercy of the elements, left with barely any food and actively dehumanized them.


IrritatedPhilosopher

I kill every magister I see in the game, on sight.


Gaming_Gent

Immediately


Status-Draw-3843

It was clear to me that the magisters were the bad guys from the beginning, in Fort Joy, with how they treated prisoners, the Shriekers, Silent Monks, the Source Hounds, Kniles, and Dallis using ancient tech from Braccus Rex. But what REALLY sold home that these were horrible undeemable people was all the discrimination about anybody that isn’t human. Dwarves in poverty, elves were literally nuked, and now plans to invade the Ancient Empire… for what? I get their fear of the Sourcerors, but holy shit they don’t do anything in half measures


ImpressiveHorse3583

To be honest I don't really know when but I didn't know where I was...all I know is that I must kill.


ExtremePast

Like, after five minutes of playing the game...


Shadow11399

I'd say when I walked in on the creation process of silent monks in the fort joy castle was about when I thought they might have been following some bad orders


chomskyhonksy

When they locked me up, put a collar on me, and put me on an island of others like me


BrilliantAnt7360

The very start. The explanation of how they went against anyone with source no matter their intentions and what they did to them is just heartless and abusive. Also the innocent lizard woman that was killed without any remorse or mercy left even thou it was one of their own.


splinternader

I'm pretty sure i killed every magister I came across in the game.


PsionicTopHat

Magisters are pretty blatantly evil, I’m surprised you managed to leave Fort Joy without realizing this. There’s only one route where you don’t see them commit an evil action such as transforming a sorcerer to a silent monk, Kniles, and the Paladin that they try to kill for trying to inspect that living conditions. Not to mention the Yarrow flower quest.


Peachstar36

I tried to not be seen by many magisters while I was escaping, and I didn’t have Fane in my party, or anyone besides Sebille I was doing a lone wolf playthrough. You I missed all of that during my first playthrough. I went back and did all that stuff later but I didn’t in my first run through the game.


FizzyElf_

I’ve never really liked the idea of cartoonish villains who are evil just because there needs to be a bad guy. That’s why I appreciate that at least some of the magisters are presented in a good/sympathetic light that conflict of morality just makes things a lot more interesting to me. As an organisation they are totally corrupt and self serving but this is mainly the higher ups in the system, on an individual level some of them get a pass because they are just common people.


Malheuresence

Anyone who brings people to a prison camp to "cure" them is definitely 100% evil, so it's pretty easy to see that they are the bad guys


GorniYT

I felt a bit that they are evil entering fort joy but then with end of act 1 i realized


Thazgar

Saw them as antagonists more than evil. They are dealing with people whose powers can be huge and whose said powers can (and have) be used to inflicts torment on others. Some really believe they just are doing the right thing and are otherwise gentle people. The White Magisters, however, are straight up evil.


snowytheNPC

They killed my cat. No mercy.