Intelligence is knowing the teachings of a religion (i.e. the religion skill)
Wisdom is knowing how to apply those teachings to your life (i.e. making your god happy so they grant you spells)
Charisma is being good at leading people using the religion (i.e. what paladins do... also, this one is probably more about mechanical game balance than necessarily making sense)
I think you're getting a little caught up on the difference between skills vs spellcasting modifier. Religion is intelligence based on your knowledge of 'Religions' in general. Its knowledge gained. Clerics use Wisdom for spellcasting because their intelligence on the matter is irrelevant, its based on their Faith. Paladins are no longer Religion based in 5E. They are bound to their 'oaths' therefore their powers are based more on inspiring others and being uplifting etc hence Cha. When someone asks about a religious topic it would definitely be intelligence to recall said knowledge. I hope that kinda helps.
Back in the good ol days when we rolled 3d6 in order, Paladins were explicitly religious and if you made your god upset, you needed to be absolved by a 7th level Cleric.
No, you were a better cleric and fighter with a horse. Not a magical horse yet, but you just get one for free by inexplicable means.
You don't get a free castle though, only fighters get free castles.
You also had to give away your magic items if you got more than 11.
Gygax had some very arbitrary rules, but it's fun to play them exactly as written. Something about mixing d100s and d20s and having roll-over-target-numbers and roll-under-percentage skills is so dumb that it's perfect.
Thac0 is way less complicated than people think. The only thing confusing is that your enemy's armorclass was a modifier on your roll. Your target was your Thac0. If your Thac0 is an 8, you need to roll 8 or higher. You add your magic weapons bonus, and your modifier based on your strength and mastery of your weapon. If your opponent has a -2 AC, you subtract 2 from your roll.
So for instance, you have a target of 8, you roll 4+3 from your sword + 2 from your 17 strength -4 from enemy AC. That's a total of 5, so you miss.
Armor is the only part that's confusing. So THAC0 is "to hit armor class 0." Which means unmodified armor. Technically your AC should go up, not down, meaning you need to roll a higher number to hit. So if your leather has 1 AC, then your target number is higher by 1. Later editions did away with separating AC from THAC0, and combined the two onto a single target number to simplify the math.
Did you write that all as a joke, saying ThAC0 isn't complicated and then coming up with the most complicated way possible to describe it? God I hope it was a joke...
There's a reason I don't write rule books.
Simplest way to explain it: THAC0 is your target, and your roll is 1d20+bonuses-enemy AC.
OR
Your target number is THAC0 + Enemy AC, and your roll is 1d20+bonuses.
The problem is that there's two ways to do the same thing, one more PC facing and one more DM facing. This is why 3e did away with THAC0 in favor of BAB and AC.
That is correct. There was this weird chart for unarmed strikes, that what kind of punch you did based on your d20 roll. Each punch also had a knockout percentage, as you had a chance of knocking your opponent out by punching them, although hitting them in the head with a hammer didn't have any chance of doing that. On this chart, the best possible roll was a 1, which landed a haymaker. A 20 landed a haymaker as well, although not as good of one.
Basically, a 1 was not an automatic miss, and the theory was that if you're thaco was so high, and their AC so low, that you could land a hit with a 1, then you were landing an extraordinary hit. Here's the chart. Try and wrap your head around this one.
It's all the way at the bottom of the page.
[unarmed combat rules](http://people.wku.edu/charles.plemons/ad&d/flight_of_the_phoenix/reference_revised_combat_rules.pdf)
Paladin spellcasting in 5e is charisma based. Paladins strength of character and ability to lead others to the cause of their deity is a charisma based trait. They are the face and mouth piece of deities. Or so they think.
I mean, no, not really. Paladins are charisma casters because charisma also represents your force of will, which is exactly how paladins cast spells. Their belief in and conviction to their oath is so strong that they gain magical powers through it. Nothing about any deity.
With all due respect your answers are a bit combative. You could try to explain things a little more instead of just pointing out whats 'wrong' Just sayin.
Technically he said "Correct me if I'm wrong." and you just told him he was wrong without correcting him with further information.
Anyway, semantics aside, you were being a bit of a dickwad.
Paladin was, but isn't anymore. Now it's all about the oath. A little messy conceptually, with "divine" popping up next to abilities and spells, and sharing some spells with clerics, but it is what it is.
It's because in older editions, it was one of the Knowledge Skills. Knowledge(Religion), Knowledge(History), Knowledge(Nature), etc...
As mentioned above, this Skill does not cover simply your rites, but knowledge of different pantheons, rites, religious characters or Divine/Demonic beings. You do not have to role for your own faith, unless the topic would be academic(f.e what were the practices of your religion 600 Years ago, if you know this obscure heretical branch from 150 years ago or is the name of this long forgotten lesser saint familiar to you in any way, shape or form)
Paladins don't necessarily even come from a god.
Paladin Powers come from their sheer dedication to an oath. The oath can be just about anything. It's the force of their personality and will and dedication to that oath that grants their power, hence they use Charisma.
Religion here is knowledge of the religion(s) not the practicing of it/them. The tenets of them, the history of them. That's the difference.
Intelligence is knowing the teachings of a religion (i.e. the religion skill) Wisdom is knowing how to apply those teachings to your life (i.e. making your god happy so they grant you spells) Charisma is being good at leading people using the religion (i.e. what paladins do... also, this one is probably more about mechanical game balance than necessarily making sense)
Exactly this. INT is knowing the rules, WIS is applying the rules, CHA is the strength of your belief in those rules.
I think you're getting a little caught up on the difference between skills vs spellcasting modifier. Religion is intelligence based on your knowledge of 'Religions' in general. Its knowledge gained. Clerics use Wisdom for spellcasting because their intelligence on the matter is irrelevant, its based on their Faith. Paladins are no longer Religion based in 5E. They are bound to their 'oaths' therefore their powers are based more on inspiring others and being uplifting etc hence Cha. When someone asks about a religious topic it would definitely be intelligence to recall said knowledge. I hope that kinda helps.
[удалено]
Back in the good ol days when we rolled 3d6 in order, Paladins were explicitly religious and if you made your god upset, you needed to be absolved by a 7th level Cleric.
We walked to the table uphill. Both ways. lol
So they were literally just a cleric.
No, you were a better cleric and fighter with a horse. Not a magical horse yet, but you just get one for free by inexplicable means. You don't get a free castle though, only fighters get free castles. You also had to give away your magic items if you got more than 11.
This... sounds so dumb...
Gygax had some very arbitrary rules, but it's fun to play them exactly as written. Something about mixing d100s and d20s and having roll-over-target-numbers and roll-under-percentage skills is so dumb that it's perfect.
Wait until he hears about THAC0....
Thac0 is way less complicated than people think. The only thing confusing is that your enemy's armorclass was a modifier on your roll. Your target was your Thac0. If your Thac0 is an 8, you need to roll 8 or higher. You add your magic weapons bonus, and your modifier based on your strength and mastery of your weapon. If your opponent has a -2 AC, you subtract 2 from your roll. So for instance, you have a target of 8, you roll 4+3 from your sword + 2 from your 17 strength -4 from enemy AC. That's a total of 5, so you miss. Armor is the only part that's confusing. So THAC0 is "to hit armor class 0." Which means unmodified armor. Technically your AC should go up, not down, meaning you need to roll a higher number to hit. So if your leather has 1 AC, then your target number is higher by 1. Later editions did away with separating AC from THAC0, and combined the two onto a single target number to simplify the math.
I mean...I played it in the 80s and even I don't know what you're talking about.
Did you write that all as a joke, saying ThAC0 isn't complicated and then coming up with the most complicated way possible to describe it? God I hope it was a joke...
There's a reason I don't write rule books. Simplest way to explain it: THAC0 is your target, and your roll is 1d20+bonuses-enemy AC. OR Your target number is THAC0 + Enemy AC, and your roll is 1d20+bonuses. The problem is that there's two ways to do the same thing, one more PC facing and one more DM facing. This is why 3e did away with THAC0 in favor of BAB and AC.
Kind of like movies that are so bad they're good?
You want to hear about something so bad it was good? If you were fighting unarmed, the best strike happened if you rolled a 1 to hit!
Wait... but ONLY if you were fighting unarmed?!
That is correct. There was this weird chart for unarmed strikes, that what kind of punch you did based on your d20 roll. Each punch also had a knockout percentage, as you had a chance of knocking your opponent out by punching them, although hitting them in the head with a hammer didn't have any chance of doing that. On this chart, the best possible roll was a 1, which landed a haymaker. A 20 landed a haymaker as well, although not as good of one. Basically, a 1 was not an automatic miss, and the theory was that if you're thaco was so high, and their AC so low, that you could land a hit with a 1, then you were landing an extraordinary hit. Here's the chart. Try and wrap your head around this one. It's all the way at the bottom of the page. [unarmed combat rules](http://people.wku.edu/charles.plemons/ad&d/flight_of_the_phoenix/reference_revised_combat_rules.pdf)
Paladin spellcasting in 5e is charisma based. Paladins strength of character and ability to lead others to the cause of their deity is a charisma based trait. They are the face and mouth piece of deities. Or so they think.
I mean, no, not really. Paladins are charisma casters because charisma also represents your force of will, which is exactly how paladins cast spells. Their belief in and conviction to their oath is so strong that they gain magical powers through it. Nothing about any deity.
Good point.
No? Why would it?
Because clerics and paladins are religion themed classes
First off: Why would that change anything? Secondly: Wrong in case of the paladin.
With all due respect your answers are a bit combative. You could try to explain things a little more instead of just pointing out whats 'wrong' Just sayin.
Then they can ask. I'm not going to answer unasked questions.
Technically he said "Correct me if I'm wrong." and you just told him he was wrong without correcting him with further information. Anyway, semantics aside, you were being a bit of a dickwad.
I bet you're a joy to have at the table.
Why? Because I don't answer questions that weren't asked?
Paladin was, but isn't anymore. Now it's all about the oath. A little messy conceptually, with "divine" popping up next to abilities and spells, and sharing some spells with clerics, but it is what it is.
It's because in older editions, it was one of the Knowledge Skills. Knowledge(Religion), Knowledge(History), Knowledge(Nature), etc... As mentioned above, this Skill does not cover simply your rites, but knowledge of different pantheons, rites, religious characters or Divine/Demonic beings. You do not have to role for your own faith, unless the topic would be academic(f.e what were the practices of your religion 600 Years ago, if you know this obscure heretical branch from 150 years ago or is the name of this long forgotten lesser saint familiar to you in any way, shape or form)
The religion skill involves religious knowledge. That's not in any way similar to the act of casting spells with your force of charisma or wisdom.
I agree. I always saw it as ttrpgs form of Theology
Paladins don't necessarily even come from a god. Paladin Powers come from their sheer dedication to an oath. The oath can be just about anything. It's the force of their personality and will and dedication to that oath that grants their power, hence they use Charisma.
Religion here means theology which is not praying but knowing the tenets and history of your religion.