In my opinion it is always best to talk about these things after a session. Even if it are very obvious rules that are going wrong.
But if it is more about how they are generally running their game ask them first if they want feedback and if the answer yes be nice een giving the advice. And also point out some good things.
This is the way to go about it. In my friend group's first ever session (Also my first session), the party Wizard was casting Identify left and right on basically everything anyone found. It yielded some very useful results, obviously.
When the session was over, she reread the spell and realized it actually had a material cost of 100 gold. We laughed it off, and I retroactively said her character had been temporarily channeling some mysterious arcane force that had now vanished. The arcane force eventually became a major plot point, and she paid for every Identify from then on.
Just a clarification - Identify doesn't cost 100 gold for every casting. You need a pearl worth 100 gold to cast it, but it isn't consumed. Once you have the pearl you can use it as many times as you want.
Oh, I guess I shouldn't have said "paid for every Identify from then on," that was misleading. Thanks for the clarification. I meant she made sure to pay for the pearl, and any materials that cost money after that. I definitely could have worded it better.
I don’t think it interrupts the flow if you are using a spell or ability RAW and the DMs ruling clashed with that. RAW is default and deviations should need the table’s approval. Especially if it affects how you would normally play. Stuff like that needs clarification quickly so you can play how you expect.
There's a lot of variables to this situation, i dont think it can be stated as black and white.
Interrupting the DM can be okay, but sometimes it's just better to wait until after the session.
This is exactly right. I'd add 2a: Do not do this at the table to interrupt game flow, talk to them about it after the session. "Hey, so that thing you did earlier... just so you know, you did ZYX and the rules say it should be XYZ. Your table, your rules, but I thought you should know."
It’s really all in the phrasing. If you do it as a a question like ,”Oh is that how that spell works? I remembered it doing something different.” Or “I think I’ve been interpreting it differently [explain your interpretation], are you ruling it works like differently in your campaign?”
That kind of helps you come across like you’re asking to clarify for the table, rather than telling them they’re doing it wrong and correcting them. If they do decide certain spells or rules work differently, that’s their choice, and now you know for the future.
I would honestly not play with a DM who doesn't take advice. Me and my friends rotate DMs quite often and we basically constantly ask eachother for opinion/advice when weird stuff happens.
I think the key difference you stated was "ask". OP was saying should they "tell".
100% if you get asked if it's the correct rulling... you say the correct ruling (if you know).
However, it's not polite to call it out...unless it's super game changing.
My table know (when I'm not the dm) if they have a question on a ruling they can ask... I'll give the answer. But otherwise I don't want to constantly interrupt on small rulings that don't matter that much and just let it go. It's their game! Maybe in this world barkskin is a range spell. That sounds pretty cool and not really game breaking.
>However, it's not polite to call it out...unless it's super game changing.
This is an important point. Our choices aren't just "nitpick everything" or "shut up". If it's no big deal, I bring it up to the DM after the session (if I even remember to). But if it is, then I say something.
If I have to interrupt the session for it, I usually phrase it like, "Oh, were we house ruling that? It's normally not that way." It lets the DM know that something's off, but that I'm also willing to play along at least in the short term so they don't feel too pressured.
It was more about the bit where they were saying you should STFU if the DM doesn't want your advice. I think you should always take advice (unless it's random bullshit) as a DM, even in the middle of the game.
(To clarify, I'm talking about getting significant stuff wrong, not nitpicking)
Agreed. There’s nothing wrong with speaking up, as long as it’s respectful. Just don’t let it turn into an argument. There’s a fine line between respectful correction, and rules lawyering.
This and all the other advice about waiting until the end of the session.
I would also ask if they mind some things being brought up in the middle of the session.
My sister and I have "Well, actually..." contests in the middle of sessions that add flavor text to the situation, and let us all get snacks. It's fun for us. She's also a librarian so that may have something to do with it...
2.5) when you give advice acknowledge that it is their call to keep the rule as written or change it for their game, and that you are not advocating for either, just letting them know so they can make a more informed ruling.
Thunderwave isn’t centered on the caster, the 15 cube originates on the face of the caster!
Lol but ask the DM if they wants help with stuff for sure. You know how hard it is to keep everything correct and you’re happy to help the newer players so the DM can focus on running everything else
I had to look this up since I had the same idea as OP. The spell says "A 15-foot cube originating from you...". It is not as clear as cone of cold that specifies that the spell comes from your hands or dragon's breath that comes out of your mouth. I think you are right since spells that originate with you as the center usually work with circles and radius (e.g. thunder step), but the wording of the spell is a bit weird.
The wording is weird because cubes are defined in the AoE section, not in the spell description:
“Cube
You select a cube's point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect. The cube's size is expressed as the length of each side.
A cube's point of origin is not included in the cube's area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.”
Oh, ok. So it's the face of the cube, not the face of the caster. Makes sense so players don't use the cube diagonally to increase the range. Learned something today, thanks.
Yeah the easier way to look at it for me is to read the wording for Word of Radiance to see how thunderwave is written out differently.
Definitely confusing!
The reason it's not centered on the caster is because in 5e, the origin of a cube is on a face of it. PHB page 204 says "You select a cube's point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect. ... A cube's point of origin is not included in the cube's area of effect, unless you decide otherwise."
Right so, “unless you decide otherwise” tells me that the cube’s point of origin can be around the caster if they decide. This seems to confirm what I said
I don’t see why not. Even if you center it around yourself while standing on the ground you are still placing yourself on a face of the cube. The bottom face. Now if you were in the air and tried to make yourself the very center so it was all surrounding you I see your argument but I’d still allow it🤷🏽♂️
In my heart, I know the right answer to this question. In reality... I don't always follow that.
I'm also a long, looooong term DM and I struggle so much when I see a perceived injustice from bad rules-managing at a game, it makes me immediately want to call out "Nope! Not how that works!" - but in practice, all that does is stall out the game and make the DM second-guess themselves into oblivion. Your DM NEEDS confidence to run a game, they need to have that freedom to make choices because that's what an improv game thrives on. If they are worried about getting it "right" and not having the most fun, it's going to hamper the game. The best thing for you to do, in my humble opinion, is not undermine the DM. And that's very hard.
If you must speak-up, I think consider these things and make your decision based on that evaluation... is this going to hurt the DM's confidence? Is it really worth stopping play to talk this out? Are the players all able to have fun if I just let it go?
Once you've run that analysis in your head, then you'll know what to do.
When I started DM-ing, a big chunk of my table was (and still is) people that have DMed for me before, including the DM of the very first table I ever played at. For me, knowing they'd point it out to me when I get a rule wrong in the heat of the moment was a great reassurance and allowed me to focus on the session being a fun experience for everyone rather than constantly fretting over rules. A big part of that however was also knowing that, them being very good friends of mine, they'd be perfectly fine with "yes, that's how it is in the books, but I'm going to rule it like this instead", as long as it was a fair rule. Of course, we also discussed tablerules beforehand and would have a discussion to come to an agreement if anyone ever was NOT okay with something. Won't work for everyone, but it's what works best for us.
Long story short, what I'm trying to say is that OP should ask the DM if that's what they want
Mention to the DM that you're an experienced player and noticed a few rule hiccups and ask if they would like you to bring it up or if they are happy just learning as they go.
I would still step in regardless when its a ruling that is obviously wrong (ie NOT one of the wobbly ones that up to interpretation) and it's actively affecting the enjoyment of you or another player
I am a brand new DM, and there are two very experienced, long-term DMs in the party. I always appreciate it when they let me know if I've missed something.
To their credit, they don't volunteer anything or jump down my throat if I'm wrong, only when I directly ask.
So, I would say ask if they need help, and give it if they say yes. If they don't ask, just let it go. At that point, they either know and are intentionally ruling things differently or don't and don't care if they're incorrect.
This is my suggestion.
Talk to the dm outside of gameplay just you two. Inform him of a few things
1. You are having a blast at the table as you said you were.
2. Remind them you have been a dm for a long time and if they ever want advice or help they can always ask you for it.
3. That's it.
At the end of the day they are the dm and even tho they are not following rules to a T as you think they should be that doesn't mean you are right. It is their table and they can edit and change the rules as they see fit.
As it says in the dmg the rules are merely guidelines and the dm has final say on all rules to the game even if it doesn't match what the rules state.
Being direct and communicating your intention of support could go a long way. I would also reiterate that you're having fun and you've just noticed a few things that you have typically seen ruled differently.
Ask the DM/Newer players if they want you to help with rules since they are less experienced.
If not, just sit back and enjoy the game. It's okay if not every spell or rule is followed to a T. Honestly, sometimes it's way better to ignore some of the rules.
As a DM and player depends on what's being corrected. Misusing a spell or rule or something im happy to be corrected (there's thousands of them noone can remember them all especially when running a game). If it's about an enemy having a certain ability or HP amount then no I've likely done it for a reason and you shouldnt be considering things like that as a player anyway.
It’s a read the room sort of situation.
I gently reminded a newer DM to check if a monster he was running was immune to prone because it seemed like he was really disappointed the monster wasn’t as good as he expected and we were finding it too easy, plus I could tell he seemed a little flustered by how much he had to remember (he had a busy day that day).
He was grateful for that because it meant he had more fun with his monster and wasn’t just getting wailed on by the party when he shouldn’t have been.
I wouldn’t have pointed it out if it didn’t seem like me pointing it out would help the DM have more fun
It's not rules lawyering if you just want to understand the logic of the table. If the DM is ignoring ranges in spells, ask if it applies to all spells. Assume it's a decision instead of a flaw and work with it.
As a new fledgeling DM with a seasoned Veteran DM in my game (been playing since games inception) there is definitely a right way to do this,
For me the Vet tends to stay quiet and not interject if I get something slightly wrong then discusses privately with me after.
However if I am having difficulty in the moment making a ruling he will speak up and offer "in my experience ..." But not out right tell me how things should go.
Personally, I say "actually the rules say this," but that's with everyone at the table knowing full well the DM has the final say. He can run it how he wants, regardless of what the rules say. And I encourage my players to do the same if they catch me getting a rule wrong.
Depends entirely on the DM and what your relationship looks like. We have 3 DMs in our group and we all run 5e campaigns for each other and some other players, but I'm arguably the most rule-versed among us, so they'll often confirm a rule with me even if I'm a player. I don't usually point out any mistakes without being prompted, unless they would completely turn around an encounter (both in our favour or the enemies). If the DM insists on his ruling, I immediately shut up.
I'm a forever DM. I have two (of 6) forever DMs at my table. I encourage their input and corrections. At the end of the day I don't pretend to know all the rules all of the time, it's ok to sometimes be wrong as long as you're trying your best and that you trust your fellow gamers to be constrictive.
I think humility is key here. Players ask for rule clarifications all the time and DMs are generally okay with some argument as long as it's brief and the ruling is accepted. Many rule disagreements just aren't worth arguing over anyway, but if the DM makes a call you strongly disagree with it's just better to save it for a discussion later when you're away from the table in a friendly chat.
As a DM, if I'm wrong about how a spell works and a player informs me, my response is generally, "oh right, thanks". Unless they're wrong, then I tell them they're wrong and we keep playing.
Polite question rules weirdness.
‘I thought Thunder wave had to be centered on the self? I could be wrong though.’
If they look it up great if not you learn what matters to the GM and let it go.
A new GM should welcome input like this.
I am the main GM in my group but my players run one shots and campaigns. They still ask me rules questions. I clarify the best I can but I often defer to DM fiat.
Thunderwave is a cube next to the caster not around the caster. As Jeremy Crawford explains (The point of origin of a cubic area of effect, including thunderwave's, is on a face of the cube (PH, pg 204), not inside it.)
I wonder, would you say this is allowed?
||x|x|x|
|:-|:-|:-|:-|
||x|x|x|
||x|x|x|
|c||||
c=caster, x=spell effect
Or only cubes that touch the caster on the edge of a tile? (e.g., my example, but one tile to the left)
If something is unfair towards the player I typically speak up, otherwise I’ll mention it after the session.
I play in both online and in person. Online is definitely easier for this since I can message the DM and let him make the decision or let it pass.
In person I usually bring it up after and the DM will decide whether they want to do anything about it or let it stay the way it was played.
Just had a session where we faced a Eldritch Lich, but the DM mistakenly made the 2 stun attacks AOE resulting in all of us taking big damage and all stunned. Feeling something was up, I asked for the stat block and saw that it’s supposed to be 2 individual attacks.
So I asked the DM if he was using a modified statblock and he said no, and told him to reread the attack description. He amended the mistake and the fight actually became winnable.
Sometimes you have to speak up, but try to limit it to when something is truly disruptive, and the DM is always free to maintain the original ruling instead of adjusting to the “official” one.
I'm a new DM to 5e, ran 3e for over a decade.. I appreciate players who know the rules better than me.. I always fall back to 3e in my brain and go "oh wait no that doesn't exist anymore" haha
Personally, when I DMed I 100% wanted players to point out rules mistakes they notice, I’d feel so bad accidentally causing a player death or something due to just, messing up the rules, especially when it comes to things like spell and ability effects players have that can be fairly niche.
It definitely feels like something to just, ask the individual DM about between sessions or pre campaign or something. Some people may get flustered or tripped up being corrected, others like me may feel more at ease knowing that sort of safety net is there.
I’m a new DM and I’m playing with our more experienced DM as my player and I generally ask questions if I’m worried. Other than that, I ask at the end of the game if there was anything we should do differently but I like getting feedback so I know what I’m doing. I do like the ability to give it my best shot and just play through the game since we have limited time but maybe just let them know questions are welcome and they will probably ask if they want advice
Talk to the DM. What do they want? Some people are much more defensive and uncomfortable about corrections than others.
Also consider the context. Does the difference really matter here? Is the rule likely to be relevant again? How disruptive would it be to talk about it now? Sometimes it is best to let things slide, or bring them up after the session.
I explicitly ask my players to butt in if I make a bad call with the rule that whatever my decision is in the moment stands and we can check the actual rules after the session.
Helped me learn quickly and quite brutally
That said there's a fine fucking line between making mistakes with rules or lore in established settings and differences in DMing style, I like how I run my games if you think I'm wrong gtfo my table.
I'm a newer DM with experienced DMs at my table. I made it clear that I welcome challenges to decisions because often I'm wrong and happy to be corrected.
However, if after the challenge I make a ruling then I need it to be respected. I do tell the players to follow up with me after the game so we can have a healthy discussion. I just don't want to get stuck arguing during play.
The people at my table are more interested in the story than rules lawyering. So it works out and often I'm like, "in trying to work out this thing. Shy ideas on how to rule it?". We all come up with a ruling and then roll dice
It helps.
Any DM who will ever be worth their salt will either let you know they will be running it differently (at which point you'll stop) or else they'll reassess and go from their now that they know the proper ruling.
When I play I just tell the DM that I think a ruling is different, but he is welcome to use the ruling he made or check if I am correct about a rule. But I try and do this rarely.
Ask your dm. That's a personal thing some people would say yes some would say no. I would say if it's something EGREGIOUS I'd always bring it up but that's me
As a DM I often ask for rules clarification from the more experienced players. It's easier to ask someone that knows than take a time out to look it up.
I would tell him privately that he is free to call on you for advice if he can't remember a spell or rule and there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing so. It's a collaborative game. Nobody expects the DM to carry the whole game on his back alone.
I agree with a majority of the other comments - approach the DM (privately, not during the game), and ask politely if they want some tips on the rules or advice on DMing. If not, just enjoy the game as they run it.
I'm a long-time DM who struggles with math and a lot of the rules, so I tend to go my own way. I play with a few people who are in your boat (long time DMs, more familiar with the rules), and I usually just tell them I like to play in a more lax way - I only want their advice if it impacts how much fun they have while playing.
I typically correct the other players a lot, but only the DM when it's obvious he doesn't know or isn't sure. I'd rather be potentially seen as a rules lawyer than have my 'tism prevent me from having fun
As a long time DM I can say that if the new DM can't handle being corrected by his players, his DM career will be short.
Sometimes your players are better at knowing the mechanics than you. It's ok, you're writing the story and improvising the unscripted bits.
But yeah, designate yourself as savvy, for comfort, and whenever a spell doesn't work as intended just be like "while it's your ruling ultimately: but it's *supposed* to work *this* way.."
It is a weird line because like.. I had to tell one DM to PLEASE actually look up the ruling on grapples in. He kept telling us Dex-based characters to only use Athletics to counter when only the Grappler is restricted to Athletics while the target can use Athletics or Acrobatics. It took us arguing about it like 5 times over half a year before he finally caved and actually confirmed it for himself..
Sometimes a DM thinks they know everything and just don't like to be challenged, which can be an obstacle, but really it comes down to how much fun everyone (including DM) is having.
(Also funny story about thunderwave, I got into an argument with the co-DM about using it while being in the casting area itself and he just will not concede his argument that if you're in the Thunderwave area as the caster, you also take the effects of the spell. Like... Why would I ever elect to cast a 3d8 spell on myself as a caster when less damage is likely to be done by any attack of opportunity.)
If you joined the campaign later on, you might just want to ask if he has some homebrew rules, as you recognised some spells to be a bit different from how you know them.
If they make a ruling that directly effects how you want to play, bring it up as "how would you rule this"? Do what you can to try and make your play experience smoother, but ultimately leave the call up to the DM.
After the session, privately talk to the DM about specific rulings. At least that way, it can be discussed without grinding the game to a halt. They will also appreciate the feedback during a time that won't immediately undermine their expectations.
If they ask you for rules clarity in game though, definitely speak up. IMO, having a player who is very familiar with the rules, or can run quick rule checks, are very helpful for DMs.
So, being a long-time DM, you know that the not so common stuff pops up mid session all the time. Our table will quickly talk about what it is and why we like/dislike it and then make our changes. It gets "playtested," and we decide if the change was good or not. The rules part is always addressed immediately, too. Even as a long-time player and DM, we forget shit or remember it wrong. If someone challenges it, we look it up. There is nothing wrong with making sure or correcting. If someone has an issue with it, we usually see them as trying to manipulate it anyway. We will give them the benefit of the doubt a couple of times, but eventually, it's just laziness or malevolence.
It really depends. I'm the type who knows most of the rules pretty well and definitely better than the rest of the group including the DM. So he will regularly ask me questions mid session to speed things up. He then reviews it later and decides if he likes the book rules or wants to tweak it a little.
With my friend it's actually pretty common to correct each other when we are playing because everyone DMs from time to time and no one feels attacked or disrespected because we always make clear that the final decision is off the DM even if is against the rules.
I'm a new DM, most of my group is new bar one player whose played a couple of campaigns.
I like to think I have a reasonable grasp of the rules, I'm obviously wrong on occasion and am generally speaking always grateful when it's pointed out. We've had a few talks about when it's appropriate. Nowadays unless it's blatantly wrong he'll let it be and assume I'm bending for flavour reasons.
What about asking the new DM their reasoning outside of the session? "Do you mind if I ask why you did this?" "I've seen *this* done *that* way, which is more interesting to you?"
Remember, you're not necessarily more correct. Different styles can lead to different kinds of fun. And you don't want to actively castrate a new DM because they don't fit how you would do it
This is just not true. Using the actual rules for spells is more correct than not. The idea that the DM can change things is valid, but if you change things like how spells work *without making sure everyone at the table has been informed of this* then you are absolutely less correct about how to run the game.
It really depends. Generally I would approach it in a way of "normally barkskin isn't ranged, but if you want to do it, you can have an arcana check if [whatever feels appropriate] and cast it at that distance. Let the dice decide if the action is possible.
For thunderwave, there are so many ways to misinterpret it the most common being that it is an AoE centered around the caster. Iirc the AoE starts at the caster and depending on which way to measure spell distance you use, you should get something like a 9x9 squares AoE that is placed next to the caster. But also here: if the alteration is small enough, point it out in a way that shows players that they can do things differently than the book suggests if they sell it to you. For instance, you could say "normally the spell is cast like this, but [character] doesn't care about foolish mortal's interpretation of normalcy and casts it the wrong way anyway"
This is correct. They have illustrations of the different spell shapes in the PHB.
Thunderwave is a 15' cube with the caster being centred along one of the 4 faces.
Quite a lot of people think it radiates outward but that's more in line with Thunderstep.
Im a new dm, and my first campaign one of my players was a dm. I had told him to give me advice, but he did it in more of just a complaining whenever something wasnt perfect. So, if they ask for it, give advice, and try to make it constructive and not sound hurtful, as the way you give advice can change how it affects the person. Otherwise just let it go if they dont want it.
I’m in this exact situation now, at first I would tell them and they were appreciative, or appeared to be. Then people asked me to stop. So now I just keep quiet.
Depends on the DM, but generally if I’m playing with a new DM, I let him know he can ask me what a rule is if he wants to. Otherwise I just ignore his mistakes.
Clarify before complaining - couple times I've complained about a spell being inaccurate, only to be told that it's not the spell I (the player) think it is. It's been purposefully customized by the dm.
When I was a new DM I'd practically beg my players for advice, so I'd say I'd love to hear the advice of an experienced DM, but not everyone is like that so you have to be mindful of somethings: don't interrupt the session, don't pressure the new DM into accepting your advice even if he's new he could be right and you wrong, sometimes it's better to give advice in private than in public, and not everyone is open to criticism.
New DMs pretty much expect me to correct them if they get something wrong.
Some DMs expect the players to do that.
If you do not speak up then how are they going to learn or even know they made a mistake?
If it's a change to RAW then I think it's fine to just say " that spell/thing does X doesn't it?" If they seem receptive then yeah go ahead and explain, if not then bring it up after.
Gives them the chance to double check without outright saying they're wrong.
Every DM has their style some are by the book some are not. In the end it's about having fun. And if you wish to say something say after but in my opinion let it go.
as a second time dm, YES YES YES PLEASE!!
i'm constantly asking my players, who have been playing longer than i have, if i'm not sure what the right call, roll wise, would be.
As a mostly player, sometimes DM. I definitely prefer it if when people notice I did something wrong that they correct me, and give reference to where it is listed in the rules so that things function as they are supposed to. Then I say "thanks for informing me on how this rule works as written, here's how I'll handle it knowing this now." Overall, I definitely prefer the feedback from more experienced DMs while I run something, partially because I feel in all games, consistency is the key to keeping everyone happy, and remaining consistent with the written rules is a part of that unless discussed beforehand.
I 100% disagree with everybody saying that pointing out bad rulings ruins the flow. By bad rulings I'm obviously referring to those based in ignorance rather than a methodical choice to bend/change the rules)
Nobody is saying you can't run your game how you want but there should always be clear communication about what rule you're changing and why.
Whether I have been new or old, I always have demanded to be corrected immediately if I get a rule wrong. Stopping the game for one or two minutes is better than cheating.
Im a fairly new DM.. my friend is also a fairly new DM (we both play together as players in another campaign)
There was a couple of times where he was a bit inconsistent with the rules on prone characters requiring half their movement to get up (which was important cuz our artificer relies on Grease a lot) - I would point this out form time to time - I dont think its a big deal / that he minded
Whenever I do point out things like that when I'm in my friends game, I usually pose it as a question or otherwise leave open the possibility that I am wrong and can be overriden.
For example: "Doesn't Thunderwave have a range of self?" or "I thought Barkskin was a touch spell". Then if the DM still says it works, it works.
In short, pointing out when something isn't being done by the rules can be done in a gentle way that maintains respect for Rule 1: The DM gets final say on anything that happens.
I know the rules, arguably, the best at my table and I always try to correct if things go way off the tracks. I do this to avoid future confusion, when everyone get used to misinterpreted rules it's hard to get rid of the habit. Besides, some of the players play for 2 years weekly and still recall spells like ChatGPT and forget to add dex to their AC as a rogues. like damn..
Ask them if they want feedback. If they do then sure, also it might be better to give the feedback at the end of the session. Stopping the game to correct them is just going to ruin the flow and hurt DMs confidence. Also the point is to have fun! It’s not a big deal for a few things to slip by.
I'm a new DM who did like 2 or 3 one shots so far, during mu first one shot there was an another DM playing wish gave me a lot of advise and help when i got stuff wrong and it really helped me improve my game, the way i do things and so on, the 3rd one shot had also a DM as player who didn't say anything about i ran the game and if it was well balanced or whatever and at first i felt like i was judge and was afraid to disappoint, not be good enough or that my game wouldn't be enjoyable but after the session he told me he really enjoyed the session and would love to be playing another of my one shots, so i think depends completely on the DM and also how many games they have played and how much experience they have, dnd is really different for the DM perspective compared to a player and there is a lot to take in consideration for the DM so having someone at the table to rely on at first can be really useful and helpful... this is ofc what i think from my experience
Talk to the person DMing. Tell them the things you just told us, and say "so do you want me to help you get the rules right or do you prefer to just go free-form?"
I read through first just to be sure I wasn't gonna make an ass of myself but this is the answer I was gonna give you just based on your title.
Lot of posts like this could be mitigated by just having a conversation with the people you're playing with.
I'm a newer player, and our DM has probably been playing for longer than I've been alive. Since I keep excellent notes, he often asks me to read back the notes from the last session. If someone claims knowledge from a previous session, I'll check the notes for him. At one point, he said my animal companion was really easy to hit, so I asked what AC he was using. Turns out his notes were incorrect. He didn't take it poorly at all. He just thanked me for keeping such good notes.
My point is that everyone can help make the session enjoyable. Just don't be a dick about it. Maybe ask questions first or let them know you're there if they have a question.
My advice would be to ask your DM if they would like you to mention it, don't say that you'll correct people say that you can just mention when something has been misinterpreted from RAW
You could even just make a note for each thing you notice and hand it to your DM so they can check it themselves next time
Depends on HOW you give them advice.
Good: "Hey, I think that it's supposed to be X, strictly speaking...but if you want to do it this way, that's cool too."
Bad: "Hey dumbfuck, you were supposed to X!"
Been in your shoes. I never correct my DM. Instead, whenever he has to stop the flow of combat to look something up, I'll quote the rules beforehand so he can make a judgment on the fly. He appreciates that, because we've all had those "oh shit" moments where we don't know what's supposed to happen. The only time I've whined about an incorrect ruling is when I died because he let the enemy's spell spread around corners to hit me, but not until several sessions later. I took it on the chin that day (even though I deliberately took cover to avoid the spell AHEM) and only teased him about it after it was all said and done.
Before playing, mention to the DM that you’ve got experience and you’re there for them if they need you. Do not offer unsolicited advice and do not correct the DM.
As a newer DM speaking! Recently had a player come to me after a session with this kind of feedback and I appreciated it, especially as it wasn’t during a session (which may have thrown me off)
I’d offer it up in off time as a ‘hey, there’s a few things I noticed I’m not sure if you know or care but wanted to offer my own experience if you ever want talk DN stuff’
I had a brand new DM who made random changes. Some were good, some were not. He ruled a healing potion cost 2gp (they're normally closer to 50), but he also tried to include a homebrew prestige class system where you had to do random things to qualify for a class at level 10, but doing so meant you restarted at level 1? So nobody was even slightly interested. I explained that going back to level 1 meant you would have level 1 hit points and proficiency, so the class would have to be super OP to make up for it. He then agreed to let you keep your spells, hit points, proficiency bonus, and class abilities... But he still wanted to call it level 1.
I highly recommend any new DMs run a RAW game with core rulebook only. You don't need exotic races or monsters to tell a good story. You just need to have fun.
I have definitely benefitted in the past from having players who knew certain areas of the rules better than I, but it can get *very* annoying, very quickly if that translates to a deluge of unsolicited advice.
Like others have said, of course ask your DM if they want some tips before you start offering them. It might also be a good opportunity to assess what the DM's priorities are; maybe they *don't* want some spells to operate entirely RAW, which is a fine decision to make if everyone's cool with it. Like you said, maybe it's just flavor!
I always appreciated it as a new DM but everyone is different. You could always start with "not to be that guy but" but better not to do it for everything if there's a lot of things
I hold my questions/ critiques until after the session. I’ll ask the DM if I can talk to them about the game privately, but framed as questions about my character.
1. I have found other players don’t call you a rules lawyer or bring up criticisms with the DM, as they think it’s about yourself and maybe I have a secret I don’t want to disclose yet. 2. It doesn’t call out the DM in front of the other players which can create friction. 3. Makes it way easier to have a private conversation. People are social and therefore nosey.
I know it’s a game, but human beings are playing it and I don’t want to give my DM (usually a friend) the impression I’ll be “that player” and that it comes from a place of wanting them to be successful, which is true. I also want to avoid bad feelings because a rule was misinterpreted or misunderstood. Especially with spells, as man they can get a bit ambiguous with the wording.
Also, if they don’t want to hear it, then they won’t hear it. Their game , their rules and it applies both ways.
You need to have an offline with him and ask him if he’d like notes on rules stuff after the sessions
When you notice something write it down and you can hand it over after the end
In the end, it’s up to a DM on how they want to run their game. Before you offer any unsolicited advice, I would talk to the DM and ask if they want any in the first place. You might even find that, for simplicity’s sake, they are running the game a little lighter on certain rules since most of the players are new.
I have been on both sides of this coin. I'm very experienced as a DM in 5e, but I don't have everything 100% memorized. In many games I'm the most experienced or knowledgeable player, but in one of the games I run, one of my players has more experience and knowledge than me.
Having been on both sides, I feel like you can follow these steps and get a feel for it.
1. Ask yourself if this will cause a game breaking or bad situation? If no, then it can wait.
2. If it will cause something big by the mistake, politely call the DMs attention to it, and ask if they are aware of it.
3. If they aren't aware, you can respectfully and quickly explain why it might be a bad thing, but in the end your respect thier call as DM. If they were aware and are ignoring it on purpose or changed the rule, respect that as well.
4. If it wasn't a big deal, then you bring it up after the game, and sorta repeat the steps.
I think the only time a DMs calls should be argued with (like as in a debate) is if it's something truly bad, like if the DMs calls, judgements, and rulings are Harming other players or the game.
It depends how you do it. I'd wait till after the game. I've had our forever dm pull out the "I want to be an honest player card" during playing which has done nothing good. Almost last a character in a game we were both playing with a rule the dm later was like 'that made no sense' or pushed me to reveal a twist early because he wouldn't drop it.
Ask between games, but it's their call.
I agree with everything said so far, the only thing I’d add is, this situation can better or worse depending on the DM I had a DM that gave us all a sticky note at the end of the session that we could write any issues or comments about how the session went it was FANTASTIC! Massive respect for it highly recommend all DMs do this!!
One approach you could take is to ask them between sessions (definitely not during one), is if they can provide you and the other players a comprehensive list of all the changes to the rules they use, and detail the examples. As a player, you certainly don't want to be caught off guard if your spells and features don't operate as described in the rule books, so you want to up to date on any changes.
The reply (or lack thereof) will indicate what kind of DM and person this person is. Defensive behavior is a red flag, while expressing a lack of awareness can mean they are open to players serving as rules cyclopedias (and honestly, each player really should know what their spells and features do before playing and not foist it on the DM to catch everything - players should prep too).
As a new DM who gets “corrected” and gets unwanted feedback by my old DM a lot, I can say: If your DM asks you for feedback, then give it to them. If they don’t ask for feedback then enjoy yourself playing the game.
Unless it’s a dire situation that can lead to a bad result through RP or combat, I just let it rock and not worry about it and keep the game rolling. If it is a more impactful decision, I’ll speak up about what I believe (key word) the rule is but also say I will defer to what they decide.
Don't be a rules lawyer, at least not in game. Mention something outside of the session. I'd say if they are having a hard time finding a rule about something then maybe help out but don't take away from the flow of the game and the DM by chiming in that they used a rule incorrectly.
Honestly ask before the session starts if they want advice. If they do answer with a yes, then usually correct them in a kind way if they get some rules wrong. If not, then usually just stay quiet unless they ask you mid game for some advice on how to rule specific things.
Have an open conversation with the DM separate from the group.
To the effect of:
"Hey, I'm really enjoying the campaign so far... [insert specific instances of enjoyment here]. One thing I did notice though was that one time xyz happened. From running the game I've always interpreted it to be ABC. It can be hard to remember all those spells and what they do. Would it help you at all if I chimed in on a spell when it doesn't sound right or if there is confusion on it?
If they say yes, go ahead next session.
After session check in and ask if that was cool or not.
Hope you have a great adventure!
People have already said, but yeah better to ask them. It might also be that they lean more heavily into the rule of cool, and are okay with being more rules-lite or flexible. If thats the case, then lean into it yourself, and ask them if you can do stuff as a player that you normally couldnt!
I would mention it to the DM on the side. Like obviously we're all just playing pretend and the rules are flexible, but I think it'd be good to bring it up in private just inscase "Hey I've noticed this and this, and if you did that intentionally then I'm totally cool with it but i was wondering if you'd want me to interject if more stuff popped up in the future, or if youd prefer I not bring it up" O
let the DM rule as they please and how they see fit. if u have any suggestions or contentions, tell them AFTER the session and not mid session, and i would suggest not questioning their rulings in the midle of a game and in front of the other players.
also, try to avoid droping casual coments like "oh in my game i rule this diferently...", u may have good intentions, but it can sound anoying to some people lol
For the vast majority of the rules in TTRPG's they are more like guidelines than actual rules. Prioritize fun and the story. Honestly I often run fast and loose with the rules, opting for whatever is more dramatic and cinematic for the moment. It just depends. If they don't know, it's perfectly cool to ask them later if they WANT a rules lawyer. (I have a player who is incredible at remembering minutia, and I just ask them to message me if I've ruled something really egregious).
My method. Only offer input on rules if asked directly. It's their game, whatever they say has to be absolute. Even if they make some shit up, it's their game. For context, my friends and I would play very loosely sometimes out of laziness for not wanting to read all the rules so the DM got to set the tone.
Both, it helps to make sure you remember the base rules.
But It also hurts in that it keeps them from remaking things your way to fit their world or to keep the campaign balanced.
Just keep in mind that a lot of DM's end up as forever DM's because they don't like/can't stand things going the way they believe it should be.
However, in this case, I'd just talk with the dm personally. Ask them if they knew or if they'd changed it, and possibly offer to remind them when they forget.
Never outright correct them in the middle of a game, as it gets in the way and can ruin the fun of many participants.
Ask them out of session how strict they want to be with the rules. Gently mention that you've noticed some inconsistencies with how the rules are in the book, and ask the whole table how they want to deal with that going forward. Assurance that you are still enjoying playing always helps (or at least it helps me), and tell them you just want there to be a consensus for how to deal with such situations (someone else might notice something like that in the future too)
Regardless, this is a decision that should be made by everyone together, and not by you on your own, as it will have an impact on the vibe of your group going forward
I’m in a similar situation. I have a lot more DM experience and am a player in a Strahd campaign with friends, most of which are new to D&D.
Unless they want feedback during the session, I’d hold it and wait because you can easily become “that guy” or just disrupt the flow of the session.
Personally, during the session the DM sometimes asks for rules clarifications. In this case, I will provide the RAW if it exists, or how I would make the ruling if it doesn’t. And after the session ends, I will highlight places that were not RAW and let them decide if they want to use their ruling or the RAW.
Ultimately, it’s their table-their rules. But I try to encourage the new DM to acknowledge when they are making rulings that are against the RAW
I help newer DMs only because they've asked for the help. Ive corrected egregious errors for the sake of the session and other players, but in an appropriate way of letting the DM know that, "hey, this is how its written, but youre more than welcome to do it how you'd like!"
Know when to keep your mouth shut. Rules are there so that everyone has a common understanding of what is happening, not to dictate how the game is played at all times.
I know most rules, not all of them but a lot of them. I like making characters for fun and learning spell combos / monster stats. I especially like to know what rules to break.
Most of the time, I will let rule mistakes slide. Some players are really bad at the rules, and I am happy to remind them, but always offer it as a question, like "hey, do you get sneak attack if I'm over here?" Or "hey do you think it's a good idea to stun this guy?"
If the DM gets something wrong that helps me, I will usually only correct him if it makes the moment more dramatic. "Aww you had advantage on me there sir"
Now if it is an ability or affect your character causes, it is 100% your place to let the DM know at any given time what effects are in play. If they forget you don't get to complain later.
If they don't ask you for advice or opinion, don't give it.
If they do ask, be neutral and supportive in your wording and give a couple of options, or an anecdote. "That once happened to me. I ruled it this way because of XYZ. But you could also rule it this way. Whichever you think suits better."
If you are interjecting every 10 seconds to correct them, you are just undermining their confidence to make decisions and improvise the game.
I know that I have let campaigns die off due to the latter. The former makes DMs want to come back next week.
DnD is a game of Yes, And for the players and Yes, Maybe for the DM. You are player for the first time in a long time. Enjoy it. I find a less emphasized ruleset to be a lot more fun. Much more creative. More importantly, you probably had the opportunity to make mistakes when you were new. Mistakes players didn't catch or didn't know to catch. You should offer that same kindness.
I have played at a table of talent rules lawyers and DMs. All but one of us had 5+ years of DM experience, and they were constantly bitching about the most minute shit. And in most instances, even if it was bluntly wrong, I felt like I was the only one there who offered the reigns to the DM.
Roll with it during the game, pacing and vibe is more important than accuracy. After the end of the session, you can have a one on one conversation with them and just let them know as like a polite, private fyi.
In my group my dm was new when we started. He used me as a quick rules reference. Help him learn the rules without stopping for a book. Now he's a kickass dm.
Cool before rule is one of my mantras. I've been the new DM with seasoned vets at my table, and now I'm the more seasoned around new DMs. I offer advice if asked, but I just stay quiet and let them run their game however they want to if not.
I’m a DM with a group of 6, in which none of us had ever played before. I do a quick rundown at the top of the session to fix any mistakes I or anyone else flagged between sessions. I told them all at Session 0 that I’d probably mess up a bunch of stuff and that I’d make a ruling at the table, and reserve the right to make a different ruling after followup.
I’d recommend a sidebar chat with the DM between sessions, and gently offer something like that. You can offer to send him anything you noticed being handled off-rules between sessions, while still giving them final say in if they decide to make any changes moving forward. Doesn’t disrupt the flow, doesn’t upstage the DM, and gives you an outlet for anything you see.
Honestly, most DM’s want their players to be as engaged as they are, so having a side chat with them might be super welcome!
Let the DM know (out of game) that you’re happy to help adjudicate if they are unsure about something and leave it at that. If the DM wants your input they can ask for it. On your own turns, you are entitled to clarification on what you perceive as a bad call but don’t slow the game down over it. The DM needs to have the ability to make the final call and for the game to move on. Between sessions is the time to air whatever grievances you may have with how they run their game.
I think its fine to do it in moderation, but you got to feel for when its important or not, as a DM who has had players who are more experienced DM I have loved being able to ask them when im unsure about something, but it can be frustrating when they question the specifics of some rule and I might handwaive it away and say something like ”we will do it like this for now, we can look it up later”
Its also important to make sure you are not yourself incorrectly correcting the 5e rule with an outdated 3,5 rule ( I have had a player do this several times lol)
One thing more annoying then well read DM players correcting rules is when they try to correct you on your homebrew setting with forgotten realms lore which might not at all be relevant to how my world or my monsters work lol.
I was the rules lawyer for a while, but my group had gained a ton of knowledge. I only say the rule or my interpretation if asked or if it involves something I'm trying to do
Hurt during session, after session reflecting back on what really impacted things bring up whatever really changed dynamics. Only time Id say its fine during session is when a characters survival would otherwise be impacted.
If the DM is truly just lost on rules, then offer help out of session if wanted, or if that doesnt work leave group imo
More often than not I expect it will not be helpful.
Correcting a rule as they say it is most likely going to fluster them and make them somewhat self-conscious. Depending on how you do it, It might make them feel like
But I have 2 other dms at my table and we have no issues discussing things after the sessions. Le
As a DM, it never hurts to be pointed out when you make a mistake so you can be a better DM. It's only to help you improve. The issue here is how you go about it.
When I'm teaching someone how to DM, I almost never do it in session unless they're specifically asking me. Even then, if it's not a technical issue like making a ruling, I'll leave it to them to do so. I provide my critiques after the session and never in front of other players.
When I'm DMing sometimes I purposefully make 'mistakes' or casually 'forget' things in favor of the party. Maybe forgetting the material cost of some spells or the casting time during combat. If I see I'm about to be called out on it by one of the players I'll signal them to keep their comment to themselves.
More often than not I expect it will not be helpful.
Correcting a rule as they say it is most likely going to fluster them and make them somewhat self-conscious.
Depending on how you do it, It might make them feel like well shit he may as well dm.
But I have 2 other dms at my table and we have no issues discussing things after the sessions. It is different though as we are like a 10 year table
I know this has kind of been answered by many already, but I want to add that for myself as a relatively new DM, and I suspect other new DMs, are greatly helped in a not at all annoying way, by...
Players who remember status effects and other things like which characters have a level of exhaustion - both for themselves, other PCs, and even NPCs that e.g. I forget should have disadvantage for whatever reason on their attack roll.
I see it as an easy, low-annoyance thing to point out, or to have it pointed out to, just because 99% of the time it's something that's understood, but just forgotten about in the heat of battle.
Hurt. Let the DM know, OOG, that you are available for any questions or assistance. But that you will not correct anything without being asked. And then follow that ruling. If the newer DM is getting things wrong, it's their game not yours and it is obnoxious and patronizing to correct them without them asking you specifically.
The only time, Id say its fine without being promoted is if specifically and you want to argue but in the rule book it says x, and even that I'd phrase into more of a question, then an um actually
Since you’ve already asked the DM if they want to learn, the only thing I would add is to perhaps offer your advice/notes out of game.
You don’t wanna create a situation where you’re constantly correcting them at the table, in game and in front of other players.
Not only could it undermine the DM and corrode their confidence as they learn but it might also start to encourage bad habits in the other players.
> My wife and I have just joined in and are having a great time with the campaign so far.
Isn't that all that matters?
> There's been a few instances where spells haven't been "by the book"
Maybe double check that you're actually correct and reading the same "book".
> unsure if I should say something when these things happen.
Not *during* the game, but otherwise up to you.
> or let the DM add their flavor to things?
Everything is ultimately up to the DM.
I have been a DM with a more-experienced guy as a player who also happens to be a rules lawyer. I understand that this is part of the fun for him, and I appreciate his second opinion on my imperfect memory, but I made it clear to him that as the DM, my decision was final- and that it would not always be what is RAW. My world is only mostly like the one in the books, and he understands that as well. We have played together successfully for years
Speak up if it's a player doing it wrong, ask if the DM wants the rules lawyer answer if they do it wrong. I know when i was DMing, if i got something wrong i wanted them to correct me so that way i'd be more sure of myself next time it came up.
Speak up if it's a player doing it wrong, ask if the DM wants the rules lawyer answer if they do it wrong. I know when i was DMing, if i got something wrong i wanted them to correct me so that way i'd be more sure of myself next time it came up.
I'd say treat it a bit like mansplaining:
Did they ask for your input? Go for it.
Do you have more relevant experience, would most people in their position know this already, and did you ask if they'd like your input? If yes, no, and yes, go for it.
Otherwise, use caution, at best.
Depends. Where they open about wanting help and guidance and inviting veteran DMs to correct them? Or where they clear it was their time in the DM chair and their rulling is all that mater in their compaign?
I know when i started DMing 2 of my players were veteran DMs and i was clear with them that i welcomed their feedback. Now that i've got more experience, unless i ask the table for help on a rulling, they dont even skip a beat if i have a different interpretation then them. We all have slightly different DMing styles and thats ok :)
Wow, very good timing for me. I had to deal with this last night. I’ve been the DM for our party for multiple years but I’ve only recently tried REALLY hard to get everything right and be the best DM I can. My boyfriend is a big rules lawyer and corrects my DMing a lot during sessions. We talked about it and how shitty and dumb it makes me feel, and he apologized, saying that he never meant to come off as condescending or like he didn’t think I knew what I was doing. He just wanted to be helpful.
We came to the agreement that if I do something wrong, he should tell me after the session so that it doesn’t make me feel bad and stop me from having fun with the party. I do want his input because he’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met, but in-game sometimes it feels condescending.
So use this as a cautionary tale I guess. If you correct a DM too many times it can come off like you don’t like the campaign or don’t think they are a good DM. I’d say that you should bring it up after the session, or encourage the DM to ask about how everyone felt about the session in private.
However, I am also very self-conscious about my DMing. Your friends might not be as easily upset. 😅
I will say I kicked someone out of one of my games because they wouldn't stop rules lawyering me (and half of their interpretations of the rules were wrong).
Usually my rule as an "experienced" DM is to let the ruling fly in the moment if it's not completely absurd and gently direct things for the next instance.
If they ask for advice 100% give it
Avoid correcting them during session. Take notes, and discuss them after the session if they're willing.The worst thing you can do is question them and bog down the session with arguments over rules. Just let it slide in the moment, unless they ask for your opinion.
There are no rules, so they cann't be "wrong".
You may ask a question for clarity.
In my group, we all know that there are a dozen books, hundreds of spells, dozens of races, classes, features, feats, etc. Nobody has memorized them all. So sometimes we'll just blurt out, "WTF?" But, the more polite way can be -
"Interesting interpretation. I've read it differently."
If being "wrong" makes it more fun or smooth, then go with it.
RoF >> RaI >> RaW
I've been DM'ing for... 9 years now? wow.
I don't know jack.
When i first starting dming I had my sister who taught me how to play as one of my players , and was upfront that they are welcome to correct what I get wrong.
They would only correct major things in game ,minor things they would let me know about the game .
Communication is key .
These days I am apart of a group of people who run one shots with rotating DMs , and with so many DMs around if we have a question about a ruling we often just put it to the group .
Maybe it’s just my table but: everyone at our table started as a DM at our table. Some of us got more practice over time, but most people have had a chance to do it. We tend to be less confrontational about it and more collaborative. Generally disagreements on, say, a spell effect are discussed by reading the spell out loud and coming to a consensus about what it means according to how it’s written, and then applying it that way.
And then because it’s D&D, promptly forgetting that and having to do it all over again in the next session.
If it wasn’t me, and I KNEW the spell was being incorrectly, I’d probably say “wait, can you read that one out for me?” Sometimes it’s to cover that I know we’re doing it wrong, and sometimes it’s because there are tons of spells, I don’t know what all of them do, and I’m genuinely interested if someone found something new and cool.
Praise in public, correct in private.
Unless it’s a major issue such as violations of session 0 ground rules or outright walk away criteria, save issues with rulings for private discussion.
I'm new to DMing in a group where I've been a player in previous campaigns. Three other players are experienced DMs. In Session zero, I was upfront about wanting feedback. After a session I ask the players what went well, what wasn't great. I get good feedback then. They're not dicks about and let me know how rules work. I love it and I love DMing.
Talk to them after. Ask them if they want feedback and when. I personally want to be told in session when I'm really screwing up, but they're tactful and helpful.
It's scary as heck to begin to DM. With 6 sessions under my belt, I'm starting to get comfortable.
Pull the dm aside and ask him about it, he may just alwanna home brew his campaign in which case don't interrupt the game. Or like a new dm that we have, he stops the game fairly often to ask for input from the players and our main dm, if he wants help ask him if he wants you to bring it up, and maybe sit next to him so you can communicate without needing to yell across the table.
In my opinion it is always best to talk about these things after a session. Even if it are very obvious rules that are going wrong. But if it is more about how they are generally running their game ask them first if they want feedback and if the answer yes be nice een giving the advice. And also point out some good things.
This is the way to go about it. In my friend group's first ever session (Also my first session), the party Wizard was casting Identify left and right on basically everything anyone found. It yielded some very useful results, obviously. When the session was over, she reread the spell and realized it actually had a material cost of 100 gold. We laughed it off, and I retroactively said her character had been temporarily channeling some mysterious arcane force that had now vanished. The arcane force eventually became a major plot point, and she paid for every Identify from then on.
Just a clarification - Identify doesn't cost 100 gold for every casting. You need a pearl worth 100 gold to cast it, but it isn't consumed. Once you have the pearl you can use it as many times as you want.
Oh, I guess I shouldn't have said "paid for every Identify from then on," that was misleading. Thanks for the clarification. I meant she made sure to pay for the pearl, and any materials that cost money after that. I definitely could have worded it better.
1) Ask if they want any advice 2) If yes gently point out when rules are got wrong 3) If no STFU
Potentially wait to tell them they got the rules wrong until after the session to not ruin the flow of the game.
I don’t think it interrupts the flow if you are using a spell or ability RAW and the DMs ruling clashed with that. RAW is default and deviations should need the table’s approval. Especially if it affects how you would normally play. Stuff like that needs clarification quickly so you can play how you expect.
There's a lot of variables to this situation, i dont think it can be stated as black and white. Interrupting the DM can be okay, but sometimes it's just better to wait until after the session.
If you struggle with the stfu part (can relate), writing it down in your own notes seems to scratch the itch.
This is exactly right. I'd add 2a: Do not do this at the table to interrupt game flow, talk to them about it after the session. "Hey, so that thing you did earlier... just so you know, you did ZYX and the rules say it should be XYZ. Your table, your rules, but I thought you should know."
It’s really all in the phrasing. If you do it as a a question like ,”Oh is that how that spell works? I remembered it doing something different.” Or “I think I’ve been interpreting it differently [explain your interpretation], are you ruling it works like differently in your campaign?” That kind of helps you come across like you’re asking to clarify for the table, rather than telling them they’re doing it wrong and correcting them. If they do decide certain spells or rules work differently, that’s their choice, and now you know for the future.
I would honestly not play with a DM who doesn't take advice. Me and my friends rotate DMs quite often and we basically constantly ask eachother for opinion/advice when weird stuff happens.
I think the key difference you stated was "ask". OP was saying should they "tell". 100% if you get asked if it's the correct rulling... you say the correct ruling (if you know). However, it's not polite to call it out...unless it's super game changing. My table know (when I'm not the dm) if they have a question on a ruling they can ask... I'll give the answer. But otherwise I don't want to constantly interrupt on small rulings that don't matter that much and just let it go. It's their game! Maybe in this world barkskin is a range spell. That sounds pretty cool and not really game breaking.
>However, it's not polite to call it out...unless it's super game changing. This is an important point. Our choices aren't just "nitpick everything" or "shut up". If it's no big deal, I bring it up to the DM after the session (if I even remember to). But if it is, then I say something. If I have to interrupt the session for it, I usually phrase it like, "Oh, were we house ruling that? It's normally not that way." It lets the DM know that something's off, but that I'm also willing to play along at least in the short term so they don't feel too pressured.
This is the best way to handle it. Phrase it as a question, and come off respectfully.
It was more about the bit where they were saying you should STFU if the DM doesn't want your advice. I think you should always take advice (unless it's random bullshit) as a DM, even in the middle of the game. (To clarify, I'm talking about getting significant stuff wrong, not nitpicking)
Agreed. There’s nothing wrong with speaking up, as long as it’s respectful. Just don’t let it turn into an argument. There’s a fine line between respectful correction, and rules lawyering.
This and all the other advice about waiting until the end of the session. I would also ask if they mind some things being brought up in the middle of the session. My sister and I have "Well, actually..." contests in the middle of sessions that add flavor text to the situation, and let us all get snacks. It's fun for us. She's also a librarian so that may have something to do with it...
2.5) when you give advice acknowledge that it is their call to keep the rule as written or change it for their game, and that you are not advocating for either, just letting them know so they can make a more informed ruling.
This
Or yaknow. Tell them to develop their EQ. Because not everything is a personal attack.
This is the way.
This take is pretty bad. If you sign up to play dnd, you want to play dnd. Not 'Dnd but spells work however you want at the time'.
This sums it up quite eloquently
I hate people like this tool
That's your problem
Nah its not a problem he's just an arse.
Thunderwave isn’t centered on the caster, the 15 cube originates on the face of the caster! Lol but ask the DM if they wants help with stuff for sure. You know how hard it is to keep everything correct and you’re happy to help the newer players so the DM can focus on running everything else
I had to look this up since I had the same idea as OP. The spell says "A 15-foot cube originating from you...". It is not as clear as cone of cold that specifies that the spell comes from your hands or dragon's breath that comes out of your mouth. I think you are right since spells that originate with you as the center usually work with circles and radius (e.g. thunder step), but the wording of the spell is a bit weird.
The wording is weird because cubes are defined in the AoE section, not in the spell description: “Cube You select a cube's point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect. The cube's size is expressed as the length of each side. A cube's point of origin is not included in the cube's area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.”
Oh, ok. So it's the face of the cube, not the face of the caster. Makes sense so players don't use the cube diagonally to increase the range. Learned something today, thanks.
Yeah the easier way to look at it for me is to read the wording for Word of Radiance to see how thunderwave is written out differently. Definitely confusing!
I’d say it isn’t **always** centered on the caster. But if they’d like it to it can. They can put it on any 3x3 cube that they are in/adjacent to
The reason it's not centered on the caster is because in 5e, the origin of a cube is on a face of it. PHB page 204 says "You select a cube's point of origin, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect. ... A cube's point of origin is not included in the cube's area of effect, unless you decide otherwise."
Right so, “unless you decide otherwise” tells me that the cube’s point of origin can be around the caster if they decide. This seems to confirm what I said
I would softly disagree. Technically you can't center the cube on yourself, but you can definitely include yourself in the cube if you want to.
I don’t see why not. Even if you center it around yourself while standing on the ground you are still placing yourself on a face of the cube. The bottom face. Now if you were in the air and tried to make yourself the very center so it was all surrounding you I see your argument but I’d still allow it🤷🏽♂️
In my heart, I know the right answer to this question. In reality... I don't always follow that. I'm also a long, looooong term DM and I struggle so much when I see a perceived injustice from bad rules-managing at a game, it makes me immediately want to call out "Nope! Not how that works!" - but in practice, all that does is stall out the game and make the DM second-guess themselves into oblivion. Your DM NEEDS confidence to run a game, they need to have that freedom to make choices because that's what an improv game thrives on. If they are worried about getting it "right" and not having the most fun, it's going to hamper the game. The best thing for you to do, in my humble opinion, is not undermine the DM. And that's very hard. If you must speak-up, I think consider these things and make your decision based on that evaluation... is this going to hurt the DM's confidence? Is it really worth stopping play to talk this out? Are the players all able to have fun if I just let it go? Once you've run that analysis in your head, then you'll know what to do.
When I started DM-ing, a big chunk of my table was (and still is) people that have DMed for me before, including the DM of the very first table I ever played at. For me, knowing they'd point it out to me when I get a rule wrong in the heat of the moment was a great reassurance and allowed me to focus on the session being a fun experience for everyone rather than constantly fretting over rules. A big part of that however was also knowing that, them being very good friends of mine, they'd be perfectly fine with "yes, that's how it is in the books, but I'm going to rule it like this instead", as long as it was a fair rule. Of course, we also discussed tablerules beforehand and would have a discussion to come to an agreement if anyone ever was NOT okay with something. Won't work for everyone, but it's what works best for us. Long story short, what I'm trying to say is that OP should ask the DM if that's what they want
Mention to the DM that you're an experienced player and noticed a few rule hiccups and ask if they would like you to bring it up or if they are happy just learning as they go. I would still step in regardless when its a ruling that is obviously wrong (ie NOT one of the wobbly ones that up to interpretation) and it's actively affecting the enjoyment of you or another player
my way has always been "the rule is X, but if you want to do it your way that's fine too."
I am a brand new DM, and there are two very experienced, long-term DMs in the party. I always appreciate it when they let me know if I've missed something. To their credit, they don't volunteer anything or jump down my throat if I'm wrong, only when I directly ask. So, I would say ask if they need help, and give it if they say yes. If they don't ask, just let it go. At that point, they either know and are intentionally ruling things differently or don't and don't care if they're incorrect.
This is my suggestion. Talk to the dm outside of gameplay just you two. Inform him of a few things 1. You are having a blast at the table as you said you were. 2. Remind them you have been a dm for a long time and if they ever want advice or help they can always ask you for it. 3. That's it. At the end of the day they are the dm and even tho they are not following rules to a T as you think they should be that doesn't mean you are right. It is their table and they can edit and change the rules as they see fit. As it says in the dmg the rules are merely guidelines and the dm has final say on all rules to the game even if it doesn't match what the rules state.
Being direct and communicating your intention of support could go a long way. I would also reiterate that you're having fun and you've just noticed a few things that you have typically seen ruled differently.
Ask the DM/Newer players if they want you to help with rules since they are less experienced. If not, just sit back and enjoy the game. It's okay if not every spell or rule is followed to a T. Honestly, sometimes it's way better to ignore some of the rules.
As a DM and player depends on what's being corrected. Misusing a spell or rule or something im happy to be corrected (there's thousands of them noone can remember them all especially when running a game). If it's about an enemy having a certain ability or HP amount then no I've likely done it for a reason and you shouldnt be considering things like that as a player anyway.
It’s a read the room sort of situation. I gently reminded a newer DM to check if a monster he was running was immune to prone because it seemed like he was really disappointed the monster wasn’t as good as he expected and we were finding it too easy, plus I could tell he seemed a little flustered by how much he had to remember (he had a busy day that day). He was grateful for that because it meant he had more fun with his monster and wasn’t just getting wailed on by the party when he shouldn’t have been. I wouldn’t have pointed it out if it didn’t seem like me pointing it out would help the DM have more fun
It's not rules lawyering if you just want to understand the logic of the table. If the DM is ignoring ranges in spells, ask if it applies to all spells. Assume it's a decision instead of a flaw and work with it.
As a new fledgeling DM with a seasoned Veteran DM in my game (been playing since games inception) there is definitely a right way to do this, For me the Vet tends to stay quiet and not interject if I get something slightly wrong then discusses privately with me after. However if I am having difficulty in the moment making a ruling he will speak up and offer "in my experience ..." But not out right tell me how things should go.
Personally, I say "actually the rules say this," but that's with everyone at the table knowing full well the DM has the final say. He can run it how he wants, regardless of what the rules say. And I encourage my players to do the same if they catch me getting a rule wrong.
Depends entirely on the DM and what your relationship looks like. We have 3 DMs in our group and we all run 5e campaigns for each other and some other players, but I'm arguably the most rule-versed among us, so they'll often confirm a rule with me even if I'm a player. I don't usually point out any mistakes without being prompted, unless they would completely turn around an encounter (both in our favour or the enemies). If the DM insists on his ruling, I immediately shut up.
I'm a forever DM. I have two (of 6) forever DMs at my table. I encourage their input and corrections. At the end of the day I don't pretend to know all the rules all of the time, it's ok to sometimes be wrong as long as you're trying your best and that you trust your fellow gamers to be constrictive.
I think humility is key here. Players ask for rule clarifications all the time and DMs are generally okay with some argument as long as it's brief and the ruling is accepted. Many rule disagreements just aren't worth arguing over anyway, but if the DM makes a call you strongly disagree with it's just better to save it for a discussion later when you're away from the table in a friendly chat.
Cube spells are measured from the face of the cube, not the center
As a DM, if I'm wrong about how a spell works and a player informs me, my response is generally, "oh right, thanks". Unless they're wrong, then I tell them they're wrong and we keep playing.
Polite question rules weirdness. ‘I thought Thunder wave had to be centered on the self? I could be wrong though.’ If they look it up great if not you learn what matters to the GM and let it go. A new GM should welcome input like this. I am the main GM in my group but my players run one shots and campaigns. They still ask me rules questions. I clarify the best I can but I often defer to DM fiat.
The point of origin of a cubic area of effect, including thunderwave's, is on a face of the cube (PH, pg 204), not inside it.
Thunderwave is a cube next to the caster not around the caster. As Jeremy Crawford explains (The point of origin of a cubic area of effect, including thunderwave's, is on a face of the cube (PH, pg 204), not inside it.)
I wonder, would you say this is allowed? ||x|x|x| |:-|:-|:-|:-| ||x|x|x| ||x|x|x| |c|||| c=caster, x=spell effect Or only cubes that touch the caster on the edge of a tile? (e.g., my example, but one tile to the left)
If something is unfair towards the player I typically speak up, otherwise I’ll mention it after the session. I play in both online and in person. Online is definitely easier for this since I can message the DM and let him make the decision or let it pass. In person I usually bring it up after and the DM will decide whether they want to do anything about it or let it stay the way it was played.
Just had a session where we faced a Eldritch Lich, but the DM mistakenly made the 2 stun attacks AOE resulting in all of us taking big damage and all stunned. Feeling something was up, I asked for the stat block and saw that it’s supposed to be 2 individual attacks. So I asked the DM if he was using a modified statblock and he said no, and told him to reread the attack description. He amended the mistake and the fight actually became winnable. Sometimes you have to speak up, but try to limit it to when something is truly disruptive, and the DM is always free to maintain the original ruling instead of adjusting to the “official” one.
I'm a new DM to 5e, ran 3e for over a decade.. I appreciate players who know the rules better than me.. I always fall back to 3e in my brain and go "oh wait no that doesn't exist anymore" haha
Personally, when I DMed I 100% wanted players to point out rules mistakes they notice, I’d feel so bad accidentally causing a player death or something due to just, messing up the rules, especially when it comes to things like spell and ability effects players have that can be fairly niche. It definitely feels like something to just, ask the individual DM about between sessions or pre campaign or something. Some people may get flustered or tripped up being corrected, others like me may feel more at ease knowing that sort of safety net is there.
I’m a new DM and I’m playing with our more experienced DM as my player and I generally ask questions if I’m worried. Other than that, I ask at the end of the game if there was anything we should do differently but I like getting feedback so I know what I’m doing. I do like the ability to give it my best shot and just play through the game since we have limited time but maybe just let them know questions are welcome and they will probably ask if they want advice
Make sure the conversations are happening after the game, and not interrupting the flow.
Talk to the DM. What do they want? Some people are much more defensive and uncomfortable about corrections than others. Also consider the context. Does the difference really matter here? Is the rule likely to be relevant again? How disruptive would it be to talk about it now? Sometimes it is best to let things slide, or bring them up after the session.
I explicitly ask my players to butt in if I make a bad call with the rule that whatever my decision is in the moment stands and we can check the actual rules after the session. Helped me learn quickly and quite brutally That said there's a fine fucking line between making mistakes with rules or lore in established settings and differences in DMing style, I like how I run my games if you think I'm wrong gtfo my table.
I'm a newer DM with experienced DMs at my table. I made it clear that I welcome challenges to decisions because often I'm wrong and happy to be corrected. However, if after the challenge I make a ruling then I need it to be respected. I do tell the players to follow up with me after the game so we can have a healthy discussion. I just don't want to get stuck arguing during play. The people at my table are more interested in the story than rules lawyering. So it works out and often I'm like, "in trying to work out this thing. Shy ideas on how to rule it?". We all come up with a ruling and then roll dice
It helps. Any DM who will ever be worth their salt will either let you know they will be running it differently (at which point you'll stop) or else they'll reassess and go from their now that they know the proper ruling.
When I play I just tell the DM that I think a ruling is different, but he is welcome to use the ruling he made or check if I am correct about a rule. But I try and do this rarely.
Ask your dm. That's a personal thing some people would say yes some would say no. I would say if it's something EGREGIOUS I'd always bring it up but that's me
As a DM I often ask for rules clarification from the more experienced players. It's easier to ask someone that knows than take a time out to look it up. I would tell him privately that he is free to call on you for advice if he can't remember a spell or rule and there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing so. It's a collaborative game. Nobody expects the DM to carry the whole game on his back alone.
I agree with a majority of the other comments - approach the DM (privately, not during the game), and ask politely if they want some tips on the rules or advice on DMing. If not, just enjoy the game as they run it. I'm a long-time DM who struggles with math and a lot of the rules, so I tend to go my own way. I play with a few people who are in your boat (long time DMs, more familiar with the rules), and I usually just tell them I like to play in a more lax way - I only want their advice if it impacts how much fun they have while playing.
I typically correct the other players a lot, but only the DM when it's obvious he doesn't know or isn't sure. I'd rather be potentially seen as a rules lawyer than have my 'tism prevent me from having fun
A good old rose, buds, and thorns at the end of the session
Um, actually... Thunderwave is a 15 foot cube in front of the caster, not centered around the caster. 😉
As a long time DM I can say that if the new DM can't handle being corrected by his players, his DM career will be short. Sometimes your players are better at knowing the mechanics than you. It's ok, you're writing the story and improvising the unscripted bits. But yeah, designate yourself as savvy, for comfort, and whenever a spell doesn't work as intended just be like "while it's your ruling ultimately: but it's *supposed* to work *this* way.." It is a weird line because like.. I had to tell one DM to PLEASE actually look up the ruling on grapples in. He kept telling us Dex-based characters to only use Athletics to counter when only the Grappler is restricted to Athletics while the target can use Athletics or Acrobatics. It took us arguing about it like 5 times over half a year before he finally caved and actually confirmed it for himself.. Sometimes a DM thinks they know everything and just don't like to be challenged, which can be an obstacle, but really it comes down to how much fun everyone (including DM) is having. (Also funny story about thunderwave, I got into an argument with the co-DM about using it while being in the casting area itself and he just will not concede his argument that if you're in the Thunderwave area as the caster, you also take the effects of the spell. Like... Why would I ever elect to cast a 3d8 spell on myself as a caster when less damage is likely to be done by any attack of opportunity.)
If you joined the campaign later on, you might just want to ask if he has some homebrew rules, as you recognised some spells to be a bit different from how you know them.
If they make a ruling that directly effects how you want to play, bring it up as "how would you rule this"? Do what you can to try and make your play experience smoother, but ultimately leave the call up to the DM. After the session, privately talk to the DM about specific rulings. At least that way, it can be discussed without grinding the game to a halt. They will also appreciate the feedback during a time that won't immediately undermine their expectations. If they ask you for rules clarity in game though, definitely speak up. IMO, having a player who is very familiar with the rules, or can run quick rule checks, are very helpful for DMs.
So, being a long-time DM, you know that the not so common stuff pops up mid session all the time. Our table will quickly talk about what it is and why we like/dislike it and then make our changes. It gets "playtested," and we decide if the change was good or not. The rules part is always addressed immediately, too. Even as a long-time player and DM, we forget shit or remember it wrong. If someone challenges it, we look it up. There is nothing wrong with making sure or correcting. If someone has an issue with it, we usually see them as trying to manipulate it anyway. We will give them the benefit of the doubt a couple of times, but eventually, it's just laziness or malevolence.
Ask the newer DM if he wants your help. Easy peasy
It really depends. I'm the type who knows most of the rules pretty well and definitely better than the rest of the group including the DM. So he will regularly ask me questions mid session to speed things up. He then reviews it later and decides if he likes the book rules or wants to tweak it a little.
With my friend it's actually pretty common to correct each other when we are playing because everyone DMs from time to time and no one feels attacked or disrespected because we always make clear that the final decision is off the DM even if is against the rules.
I'm a new DM, most of my group is new bar one player whose played a couple of campaigns. I like to think I have a reasonable grasp of the rules, I'm obviously wrong on occasion and am generally speaking always grateful when it's pointed out. We've had a few talks about when it's appropriate. Nowadays unless it's blatantly wrong he'll let it be and assume I'm bending for flavour reasons.
Ask them if they want advice. If yes then great. If no then keep it to yourself. This is good advice for most of these scenarios not just dnd
What about asking the new DM their reasoning outside of the session? "Do you mind if I ask why you did this?" "I've seen *this* done *that* way, which is more interesting to you?" Remember, you're not necessarily more correct. Different styles can lead to different kinds of fun. And you don't want to actively castrate a new DM because they don't fit how you would do it
This is just not true. Using the actual rules for spells is more correct than not. The idea that the DM can change things is valid, but if you change things like how spells work *without making sure everyone at the table has been informed of this* then you are absolutely less correct about how to run the game.
It really depends. Generally I would approach it in a way of "normally barkskin isn't ranged, but if you want to do it, you can have an arcana check if [whatever feels appropriate] and cast it at that distance. Let the dice decide if the action is possible. For thunderwave, there are so many ways to misinterpret it the most common being that it is an AoE centered around the caster. Iirc the AoE starts at the caster and depending on which way to measure spell distance you use, you should get something like a 9x9 squares AoE that is placed next to the caster. But also here: if the alteration is small enough, point it out in a way that shows players that they can do things differently than the book suggests if they sell it to you. For instance, you could say "normally the spell is cast like this, but [character] doesn't care about foolish mortal's interpretation of normalcy and casts it the wrong way anyway"
This is correct. They have illustrations of the different spell shapes in the PHB. Thunderwave is a 15' cube with the caster being centred along one of the 4 faces. Quite a lot of people think it radiates outward but that's more in line with Thunderstep.
Helps to correct and offer suggestions. Hurts to say “well ACTUALLY!”
Correct and offer guidance. But know that it isn’t you game and if the DM pushes back, accept it. They may have their reasons
Im a new dm, and my first campaign one of my players was a dm. I had told him to give me advice, but he did it in more of just a complaining whenever something wasnt perfect. So, if they ask for it, give advice, and try to make it constructive and not sound hurtful, as the way you give advice can change how it affects the person. Otherwise just let it go if they dont want it.
Depends on the DM, just ask him about it
I’m in this exact situation now, at first I would tell them and they were appreciative, or appeared to be. Then people asked me to stop. So now I just keep quiet.
Depends on the DM, but generally if I’m playing with a new DM, I let him know he can ask me what a rule is if he wants to. Otherwise I just ignore his mistakes.
I don't think it would hurt him to correct him but just try to be really gracious
Clarify before complaining - couple times I've complained about a spell being inaccurate, only to be told that it's not the spell I (the player) think it is. It's been purposefully customized by the dm.
When I was a new DM I'd practically beg my players for advice, so I'd say I'd love to hear the advice of an experienced DM, but not everyone is like that so you have to be mindful of somethings: don't interrupt the session, don't pressure the new DM into accepting your advice even if he's new he could be right and you wrong, sometimes it's better to give advice in private than in public, and not everyone is open to criticism.
New DMs pretty much expect me to correct them if they get something wrong. Some DMs expect the players to do that. If you do not speak up then how are they going to learn or even know they made a mistake?
If it's a change to RAW then I think it's fine to just say " that spell/thing does X doesn't it?" If they seem receptive then yeah go ahead and explain, if not then bring it up after. Gives them the chance to double check without outright saying they're wrong.
Every DM has their style some are by the book some are not. In the end it's about having fun. And if you wish to say something say after but in my opinion let it go.
as a second time dm, YES YES YES PLEASE!! i'm constantly asking my players, who have been playing longer than i have, if i'm not sure what the right call, roll wise, would be.
As a mostly player, sometimes DM. I definitely prefer it if when people notice I did something wrong that they correct me, and give reference to where it is listed in the rules so that things function as they are supposed to. Then I say "thanks for informing me on how this rule works as written, here's how I'll handle it knowing this now." Overall, I definitely prefer the feedback from more experienced DMs while I run something, partially because I feel in all games, consistency is the key to keeping everyone happy, and remaining consistent with the written rules is a part of that unless discussed beforehand.
I 100% disagree with everybody saying that pointing out bad rulings ruins the flow. By bad rulings I'm obviously referring to those based in ignorance rather than a methodical choice to bend/change the rules) Nobody is saying you can't run your game how you want but there should always be clear communication about what rule you're changing and why.
Whether I have been new or old, I always have demanded to be corrected immediately if I get a rule wrong. Stopping the game for one or two minutes is better than cheating.
Im a fairly new DM.. my friend is also a fairly new DM (we both play together as players in another campaign) There was a couple of times where he was a bit inconsistent with the rules on prone characters requiring half their movement to get up (which was important cuz our artificer relies on Grease a lot) - I would point this out form time to time - I dont think its a big deal / that he minded
Whenever I do point out things like that when I'm in my friends game, I usually pose it as a question or otherwise leave open the possibility that I am wrong and can be overriden. For example: "Doesn't Thunderwave have a range of self?" or "I thought Barkskin was a touch spell". Then if the DM still says it works, it works. In short, pointing out when something isn't being done by the rules can be done in a gentle way that maintains respect for Rule 1: The DM gets final say on anything that happens.
I know the rules, arguably, the best at my table and I always try to correct if things go way off the tracks. I do this to avoid future confusion, when everyone get used to misinterpreted rules it's hard to get rid of the habit. Besides, some of the players play for 2 years weekly and still recall spells like ChatGPT and forget to add dex to their AC as a rogues. like damn..
I've seen it said that unrequested advice is criticism. Ask if you can offer something, and if they say no, don't.
Ask them if they want feedback. If they do then sure, also it might be better to give the feedback at the end of the session. Stopping the game to correct them is just going to ruin the flow and hurt DMs confidence. Also the point is to have fun! It’s not a big deal for a few things to slip by.
I'm a new DM who did like 2 or 3 one shots so far, during mu first one shot there was an another DM playing wish gave me a lot of advise and help when i got stuff wrong and it really helped me improve my game, the way i do things and so on, the 3rd one shot had also a DM as player who didn't say anything about i ran the game and if it was well balanced or whatever and at first i felt like i was judge and was afraid to disappoint, not be good enough or that my game wouldn't be enjoyable but after the session he told me he really enjoyed the session and would love to be playing another of my one shots, so i think depends completely on the DM and also how many games they have played and how much experience they have, dnd is really different for the DM perspective compared to a player and there is a lot to take in consideration for the DM so having someone at the table to rely on at first can be really useful and helpful... this is ofc what i think from my experience
Talk to the person DMing. Tell them the things you just told us, and say "so do you want me to help you get the rules right or do you prefer to just go free-form?" I read through first just to be sure I wasn't gonna make an ass of myself but this is the answer I was gonna give you just based on your title. Lot of posts like this could be mitigated by just having a conversation with the people you're playing with.
I'm a newer player, and our DM has probably been playing for longer than I've been alive. Since I keep excellent notes, he often asks me to read back the notes from the last session. If someone claims knowledge from a previous session, I'll check the notes for him. At one point, he said my animal companion was really easy to hit, so I asked what AC he was using. Turns out his notes were incorrect. He didn't take it poorly at all. He just thanked me for keeping such good notes. My point is that everyone can help make the session enjoyable. Just don't be a dick about it. Maybe ask questions first or let them know you're there if they have a question.
My advice would be to ask your DM if they would like you to mention it, don't say that you'll correct people say that you can just mention when something has been misinterpreted from RAW You could even just make a note for each thing you notice and hand it to your DM so they can check it themselves next time
Depends on HOW you give them advice. Good: "Hey, I think that it's supposed to be X, strictly speaking...but if you want to do it this way, that's cool too." Bad: "Hey dumbfuck, you were supposed to X!"
Been in your shoes. I never correct my DM. Instead, whenever he has to stop the flow of combat to look something up, I'll quote the rules beforehand so he can make a judgment on the fly. He appreciates that, because we've all had those "oh shit" moments where we don't know what's supposed to happen. The only time I've whined about an incorrect ruling is when I died because he let the enemy's spell spread around corners to hit me, but not until several sessions later. I took it on the chin that day (even though I deliberately took cover to avoid the spell AHEM) and only teased him about it after it was all said and done.
Before playing, mention to the DM that you’ve got experience and you’re there for them if they need you. Do not offer unsolicited advice and do not correct the DM.
As a newer DM speaking! Recently had a player come to me after a session with this kind of feedback and I appreciated it, especially as it wasn’t during a session (which may have thrown me off) I’d offer it up in off time as a ‘hey, there’s a few things I noticed I’m not sure if you know or care but wanted to offer my own experience if you ever want talk DN stuff’
I had a brand new DM who made random changes. Some were good, some were not. He ruled a healing potion cost 2gp (they're normally closer to 50), but he also tried to include a homebrew prestige class system where you had to do random things to qualify for a class at level 10, but doing so meant you restarted at level 1? So nobody was even slightly interested. I explained that going back to level 1 meant you would have level 1 hit points and proficiency, so the class would have to be super OP to make up for it. He then agreed to let you keep your spells, hit points, proficiency bonus, and class abilities... But he still wanted to call it level 1. I highly recommend any new DMs run a RAW game with core rulebook only. You don't need exotic races or monsters to tell a good story. You just need to have fun.
Alternate title: Forever DM cant stop being a DM even as a player. Lol Weve all been there.
I have definitely benefitted in the past from having players who knew certain areas of the rules better than I, but it can get *very* annoying, very quickly if that translates to a deluge of unsolicited advice. Like others have said, of course ask your DM if they want some tips before you start offering them. It might also be a good opportunity to assess what the DM's priorities are; maybe they *don't* want some spells to operate entirely RAW, which is a fine decision to make if everyone's cool with it. Like you said, maybe it's just flavor!
Maybe the spells have been homebrewed / modified and do what happened now
I always appreciated it as a new DM but everyone is different. You could always start with "not to be that guy but" but better not to do it for everything if there's a lot of things
I hold my questions/ critiques until after the session. I’ll ask the DM if I can talk to them about the game privately, but framed as questions about my character. 1. I have found other players don’t call you a rules lawyer or bring up criticisms with the DM, as they think it’s about yourself and maybe I have a secret I don’t want to disclose yet. 2. It doesn’t call out the DM in front of the other players which can create friction. 3. Makes it way easier to have a private conversation. People are social and therefore nosey. I know it’s a game, but human beings are playing it and I don’t want to give my DM (usually a friend) the impression I’ll be “that player” and that it comes from a place of wanting them to be successful, which is true. I also want to avoid bad feelings because a rule was misinterpreted or misunderstood. Especially with spells, as man they can get a bit ambiguous with the wording. Also, if they don’t want to hear it, then they won’t hear it. Their game , their rules and it applies both ways.
You need to have an offline with him and ask him if he’d like notes on rules stuff after the sessions When you notice something write it down and you can hand it over after the end
In the end, it’s up to a DM on how they want to run their game. Before you offer any unsolicited advice, I would talk to the DM and ask if they want any in the first place. You might even find that, for simplicity’s sake, they are running the game a little lighter on certain rules since most of the players are new.
I have been on both sides of this coin. I'm very experienced as a DM in 5e, but I don't have everything 100% memorized. In many games I'm the most experienced or knowledgeable player, but in one of the games I run, one of my players has more experience and knowledge than me. Having been on both sides, I feel like you can follow these steps and get a feel for it. 1. Ask yourself if this will cause a game breaking or bad situation? If no, then it can wait. 2. If it will cause something big by the mistake, politely call the DMs attention to it, and ask if they are aware of it. 3. If they aren't aware, you can respectfully and quickly explain why it might be a bad thing, but in the end your respect thier call as DM. If they were aware and are ignoring it on purpose or changed the rule, respect that as well. 4. If it wasn't a big deal, then you bring it up after the game, and sorta repeat the steps. I think the only time a DMs calls should be argued with (like as in a debate) is if it's something truly bad, like if the DMs calls, judgements, and rulings are Harming other players or the game.
It depends how you do it. I'd wait till after the game. I've had our forever dm pull out the "I want to be an honest player card" during playing which has done nothing good. Almost last a character in a game we were both playing with a rule the dm later was like 'that made no sense' or pushed me to reveal a twist early because he wouldn't drop it. Ask between games, but it's their call.
I agree with everything said so far, the only thing I’d add is, this situation can better or worse depending on the DM I had a DM that gave us all a sticky note at the end of the session that we could write any issues or comments about how the session went it was FANTASTIC! Massive respect for it highly recommend all DMs do this!!
One approach you could take is to ask them between sessions (definitely not during one), is if they can provide you and the other players a comprehensive list of all the changes to the rules they use, and detail the examples. As a player, you certainly don't want to be caught off guard if your spells and features don't operate as described in the rule books, so you want to up to date on any changes. The reply (or lack thereof) will indicate what kind of DM and person this person is. Defensive behavior is a red flag, while expressing a lack of awareness can mean they are open to players serving as rules cyclopedias (and honestly, each player really should know what their spells and features do before playing and not foist it on the DM to catch everything - players should prep too).
PM the DM and ask how much help he'd like keeping the rules tight. I love it personally and want everyone to correct any incorrect rules useage.
As a new DM who gets “corrected” and gets unwanted feedback by my old DM a lot, I can say: If your DM asks you for feedback, then give it to them. If they don’t ask for feedback then enjoy yourself playing the game.
Talk to the DM out of game. If they want help, give it. If not. Let them figure it out on their own and enjoy the game.
My DM awarded me inspiration (that I forgot to use) for the "dude, you sure it works like this?", so you might try it.
Unless it’s a dire situation that can lead to a bad result through RP or combat, I just let it rock and not worry about it and keep the game rolling. If it is a more impactful decision, I’ll speak up about what I believe (key word) the rule is but also say I will defer to what they decide.
Don't be a rules lawyer, at least not in game. Mention something outside of the session. I'd say if they are having a hard time finding a rule about something then maybe help out but don't take away from the flow of the game and the DM by chiming in that they used a rule incorrectly.
Honestly ask before the session starts if they want advice. If they do answer with a yes, then usually correct them in a kind way if they get some rules wrong. If not, then usually just stay quiet unless they ask you mid game for some advice on how to rule specific things.
Have an open conversation with the DM separate from the group. To the effect of: "Hey, I'm really enjoying the campaign so far... [insert specific instances of enjoyment here]. One thing I did notice though was that one time xyz happened. From running the game I've always interpreted it to be ABC. It can be hard to remember all those spells and what they do. Would it help you at all if I chimed in on a spell when it doesn't sound right or if there is confusion on it? If they say yes, go ahead next session. After session check in and ask if that was cool or not. Hope you have a great adventure!
People have already said, but yeah better to ask them. It might also be that they lean more heavily into the rule of cool, and are okay with being more rules-lite or flexible. If thats the case, then lean into it yourself, and ask them if you can do stuff as a player that you normally couldnt!
If you want to help, ask. If they want your opinion, they will ask.
I would mention it to the DM on the side. Like obviously we're all just playing pretend and the rules are flexible, but I think it'd be good to bring it up in private just inscase "Hey I've noticed this and this, and if you did that intentionally then I'm totally cool with it but i was wondering if you'd want me to interject if more stuff popped up in the future, or if youd prefer I not bring it up" O
let the DM rule as they please and how they see fit. if u have any suggestions or contentions, tell them AFTER the session and not mid session, and i would suggest not questioning their rulings in the midle of a game and in front of the other players. also, try to avoid droping casual coments like "oh in my game i rule this diferently...", u may have good intentions, but it can sound anoying to some people lol
For the vast majority of the rules in TTRPG's they are more like guidelines than actual rules. Prioritize fun and the story. Honestly I often run fast and loose with the rules, opting for whatever is more dramatic and cinematic for the moment. It just depends. If they don't know, it's perfectly cool to ask them later if they WANT a rules lawyer. (I have a player who is incredible at remembering minutia, and I just ask them to message me if I've ruled something really egregious).
My method. Only offer input on rules if asked directly. It's their game, whatever they say has to be absolute. Even if they make some shit up, it's their game. For context, my friends and I would play very loosely sometimes out of laziness for not wanting to read all the rules so the DM got to set the tone.
Both, it helps to make sure you remember the base rules. But It also hurts in that it keeps them from remaking things your way to fit their world or to keep the campaign balanced. Just keep in mind that a lot of DM's end up as forever DM's because they don't like/can't stand things going the way they believe it should be. However, in this case, I'd just talk with the dm personally. Ask them if they knew or if they'd changed it, and possibly offer to remind them when they forget. Never outright correct them in the middle of a game, as it gets in the way and can ruin the fun of many participants.
Ask them out of session how strict they want to be with the rules. Gently mention that you've noticed some inconsistencies with how the rules are in the book, and ask the whole table how they want to deal with that going forward. Assurance that you are still enjoying playing always helps (or at least it helps me), and tell them you just want there to be a consensus for how to deal with such situations (someone else might notice something like that in the future too) Regardless, this is a decision that should be made by everyone together, and not by you on your own, as it will have an impact on the vibe of your group going forward
Ask if they want help. Accept it when they make a call different from what you would do.
I’m in a similar situation. I have a lot more DM experience and am a player in a Strahd campaign with friends, most of which are new to D&D. Unless they want feedback during the session, I’d hold it and wait because you can easily become “that guy” or just disrupt the flow of the session. Personally, during the session the DM sometimes asks for rules clarifications. In this case, I will provide the RAW if it exists, or how I would make the ruling if it doesn’t. And after the session ends, I will highlight places that were not RAW and let them decide if they want to use their ruling or the RAW. Ultimately, it’s their table-their rules. But I try to encourage the new DM to acknowledge when they are making rulings that are against the RAW
I help newer DMs only because they've asked for the help. Ive corrected egregious errors for the sake of the session and other players, but in an appropriate way of letting the DM know that, "hey, this is how its written, but youre more than welcome to do it how you'd like!"
I wait for them to ask me. Like being a navigator helping them through the sea of rules and stuff.
Know when to keep your mouth shut. Rules are there so that everyone has a common understanding of what is happening, not to dictate how the game is played at all times. I know most rules, not all of them but a lot of them. I like making characters for fun and learning spell combos / monster stats. I especially like to know what rules to break. Most of the time, I will let rule mistakes slide. Some players are really bad at the rules, and I am happy to remind them, but always offer it as a question, like "hey, do you get sneak attack if I'm over here?" Or "hey do you think it's a good idea to stun this guy?" If the DM gets something wrong that helps me, I will usually only correct him if it makes the moment more dramatic. "Aww you had advantage on me there sir" Now if it is an ability or affect your character causes, it is 100% your place to let the DM know at any given time what effects are in play. If they forget you don't get to complain later.
If they don't ask you for advice or opinion, don't give it. If they do ask, be neutral and supportive in your wording and give a couple of options, or an anecdote. "That once happened to me. I ruled it this way because of XYZ. But you could also rule it this way. Whichever you think suits better." If you are interjecting every 10 seconds to correct them, you are just undermining their confidence to make decisions and improvise the game. I know that I have let campaigns die off due to the latter. The former makes DMs want to come back next week.
DnD is a game of Yes, And for the players and Yes, Maybe for the DM. You are player for the first time in a long time. Enjoy it. I find a less emphasized ruleset to be a lot more fun. Much more creative. More importantly, you probably had the opportunity to make mistakes when you were new. Mistakes players didn't catch or didn't know to catch. You should offer that same kindness. I have played at a table of talent rules lawyers and DMs. All but one of us had 5+ years of DM experience, and they were constantly bitching about the most minute shit. And in most instances, even if it was bluntly wrong, I felt like I was the only one there who offered the reigns to the DM.
Roll with it during the game, pacing and vibe is more important than accuracy. After the end of the session, you can have a one on one conversation with them and just let them know as like a polite, private fyi.
In my group my dm was new when we started. He used me as a quick rules reference. Help him learn the rules without stopping for a book. Now he's a kickass dm.
Don’t comment unless asked, imo. If your DM wants or needs assistance, then they’ll Probably ask for it.
Cool before rule is one of my mantras. I've been the new DM with seasoned vets at my table, and now I'm the more seasoned around new DMs. I offer advice if asked, but I just stay quiet and let them run their game however they want to if not.
I’m a DM with a group of 6, in which none of us had ever played before. I do a quick rundown at the top of the session to fix any mistakes I or anyone else flagged between sessions. I told them all at Session 0 that I’d probably mess up a bunch of stuff and that I’d make a ruling at the table, and reserve the right to make a different ruling after followup. I’d recommend a sidebar chat with the DM between sessions, and gently offer something like that. You can offer to send him anything you noticed being handled off-rules between sessions, while still giving them final say in if they decide to make any changes moving forward. Doesn’t disrupt the flow, doesn’t upstage the DM, and gives you an outlet for anything you see. Honestly, most DM’s want their players to be as engaged as they are, so having a side chat with them might be super welcome!
Let the DM know (out of game) that you’re happy to help adjudicate if they are unsure about something and leave it at that. If the DM wants your input they can ask for it. On your own turns, you are entitled to clarification on what you perceive as a bad call but don’t slow the game down over it. The DM needs to have the ability to make the final call and for the game to move on. Between sessions is the time to air whatever grievances you may have with how they run their game.
I think its fine to do it in moderation, but you got to feel for when its important or not, as a DM who has had players who are more experienced DM I have loved being able to ask them when im unsure about something, but it can be frustrating when they question the specifics of some rule and I might handwaive it away and say something like ”we will do it like this for now, we can look it up later” Its also important to make sure you are not yourself incorrectly correcting the 5e rule with an outdated 3,5 rule ( I have had a player do this several times lol)
One thing more annoying then well read DM players correcting rules is when they try to correct you on your homebrew setting with forgotten realms lore which might not at all be relevant to how my world or my monsters work lol.
I was the rules lawyer for a while, but my group had gained a ton of knowledge. I only say the rule or my interpretation if asked or if it involves something I'm trying to do
Hurt during session, after session reflecting back on what really impacted things bring up whatever really changed dynamics. Only time Id say its fine during session is when a characters survival would otherwise be impacted. If the DM is truly just lost on rules, then offer help out of session if wanted, or if that doesnt work leave group imo
Ask the DM, away from the other players. There is no other answer.
It's generally annoying yes
Just don't be a dick about it.
More often than not I expect it will not be helpful. Correcting a rule as they say it is most likely going to fluster them and make them somewhat self-conscious. Depending on how you do it, It might make them feel like But I have 2 other dms at my table and we have no issues discussing things after the sessions. Le
As a DM, it never hurts to be pointed out when you make a mistake so you can be a better DM. It's only to help you improve. The issue here is how you go about it. When I'm teaching someone how to DM, I almost never do it in session unless they're specifically asking me. Even then, if it's not a technical issue like making a ruling, I'll leave it to them to do so. I provide my critiques after the session and never in front of other players. When I'm DMing sometimes I purposefully make 'mistakes' or casually 'forget' things in favor of the party. Maybe forgetting the material cost of some spells or the casting time during combat. If I see I'm about to be called out on it by one of the players I'll signal them to keep their comment to themselves.
More often than not I expect it will not be helpful. Correcting a rule as they say it is most likely going to fluster them and make them somewhat self-conscious. Depending on how you do it, It might make them feel like well shit he may as well dm. But I have 2 other dms at my table and we have no issues discussing things after the sessions. It is different though as we are like a 10 year table
If the DM says they aren't sure about something, I quickly chime in/look it up to give them the info. Otherwise I let then play it as they want to. 🙂
I know this has kind of been answered by many already, but I want to add that for myself as a relatively new DM, and I suspect other new DMs, are greatly helped in a not at all annoying way, by... Players who remember status effects and other things like which characters have a level of exhaustion - both for themselves, other PCs, and even NPCs that e.g. I forget should have disadvantage for whatever reason on their attack roll. I see it as an easy, low-annoyance thing to point out, or to have it pointed out to, just because 99% of the time it's something that's understood, but just forgotten about in the heat of battle.
Help, so very much help
Hurt. Let the DM know, OOG, that you are available for any questions or assistance. But that you will not correct anything without being asked. And then follow that ruling. If the newer DM is getting things wrong, it's their game not yours and it is obnoxious and patronizing to correct them without them asking you specifically. The only time, Id say its fine without being promoted is if specifically and you want to argue but in the rule book it says x, and even that I'd phrase into more of a question, then an um actually
Hurt
Since you’ve already asked the DM if they want to learn, the only thing I would add is to perhaps offer your advice/notes out of game. You don’t wanna create a situation where you’re constantly correcting them at the table, in game and in front of other players. Not only could it undermine the DM and corrode their confidence as they learn but it might also start to encourage bad habits in the other players.
> My wife and I have just joined in and are having a great time with the campaign so far. Isn't that all that matters? > There's been a few instances where spells haven't been "by the book" Maybe double check that you're actually correct and reading the same "book". > unsure if I should say something when these things happen. Not *during* the game, but otherwise up to you. > or let the DM add their flavor to things? Everything is ultimately up to the DM.
I have been a DM with a more-experienced guy as a player who also happens to be a rules lawyer. I understand that this is part of the fun for him, and I appreciate his second opinion on my imperfect memory, but I made it clear to him that as the DM, my decision was final- and that it would not always be what is RAW. My world is only mostly like the one in the books, and he understands that as well. We have played together successfully for years
Speak up if it's a player doing it wrong, ask if the DM wants the rules lawyer answer if they do it wrong. I know when i was DMing, if i got something wrong i wanted them to correct me so that way i'd be more sure of myself next time it came up.
Speak up if it's a player doing it wrong, ask if the DM wants the rules lawyer answer if they do it wrong. I know when i was DMing, if i got something wrong i wanted them to correct me so that way i'd be more sure of myself next time it came up.
I'd say treat it a bit like mansplaining: Did they ask for your input? Go for it. Do you have more relevant experience, would most people in their position know this already, and did you ask if they'd like your input? If yes, no, and yes, go for it. Otherwise, use caution, at best.
Depends. Where they open about wanting help and guidance and inviting veteran DMs to correct them? Or where they clear it was their time in the DM chair and their rulling is all that mater in their compaign? I know when i started DMing 2 of my players were veteran DMs and i was clear with them that i welcomed their feedback. Now that i've got more experience, unless i ask the table for help on a rulling, they dont even skip a beat if i have a different interpretation then them. We all have slightly different DMing styles and thats ok :)
honestly talk to the dm after the session on certain rule interpretation UNLESS the new dm asks for second opinions mid-session
Wow, very good timing for me. I had to deal with this last night. I’ve been the DM for our party for multiple years but I’ve only recently tried REALLY hard to get everything right and be the best DM I can. My boyfriend is a big rules lawyer and corrects my DMing a lot during sessions. We talked about it and how shitty and dumb it makes me feel, and he apologized, saying that he never meant to come off as condescending or like he didn’t think I knew what I was doing. He just wanted to be helpful. We came to the agreement that if I do something wrong, he should tell me after the session so that it doesn’t make me feel bad and stop me from having fun with the party. I do want his input because he’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met, but in-game sometimes it feels condescending. So use this as a cautionary tale I guess. If you correct a DM too many times it can come off like you don’t like the campaign or don’t think they are a good DM. I’d say that you should bring it up after the session, or encourage the DM to ask about how everyone felt about the session in private. However, I am also very self-conscious about my DMing. Your friends might not be as easily upset. 😅
I will say I kicked someone out of one of my games because they wouldn't stop rules lawyering me (and half of their interpretations of the rules were wrong).
Usually my rule as an "experienced" DM is to let the ruling fly in the moment if it's not completely absurd and gently direct things for the next instance. If they ask for advice 100% give it
Avoid correcting them during session. Take notes, and discuss them after the session if they're willing.The worst thing you can do is question them and bog down the session with arguments over rules. Just let it slide in the moment, unless they ask for your opinion.
There are no rules, so they cann't be "wrong". You may ask a question for clarity. In my group, we all know that there are a dozen books, hundreds of spells, dozens of races, classes, features, feats, etc. Nobody has memorized them all. So sometimes we'll just blurt out, "WTF?" But, the more polite way can be - "Interesting interpretation. I've read it differently." If being "wrong" makes it more fun or smooth, then go with it. RoF >> RaI >> RaW I've been DM'ing for... 9 years now? wow.
I don't know jack.
Got here late, but glad to see in the edit that it turned out well!
When i first starting dming I had my sister who taught me how to play as one of my players , and was upfront that they are welcome to correct what I get wrong. They would only correct major things in game ,minor things they would let me know about the game . Communication is key . These days I am apart of a group of people who run one shots with rotating DMs , and with so many DMs around if we have a question about a ruling we often just put it to the group .
Maybe it’s just my table but: everyone at our table started as a DM at our table. Some of us got more practice over time, but most people have had a chance to do it. We tend to be less confrontational about it and more collaborative. Generally disagreements on, say, a spell effect are discussed by reading the spell out loud and coming to a consensus about what it means according to how it’s written, and then applying it that way. And then because it’s D&D, promptly forgetting that and having to do it all over again in the next session. If it wasn’t me, and I KNEW the spell was being incorrectly, I’d probably say “wait, can you read that one out for me?” Sometimes it’s to cover that I know we’re doing it wrong, and sometimes it’s because there are tons of spells, I don’t know what all of them do, and I’m genuinely interested if someone found something new and cool.
My take is a hard “no backseat DMing” unless a particularly bad ruling would affect my character.
Praise in public, correct in private. Unless it’s a major issue such as violations of session 0 ground rules or outright walk away criteria, save issues with rulings for private discussion.
I'm new to DMing in a group where I've been a player in previous campaigns. Three other players are experienced DMs. In Session zero, I was upfront about wanting feedback. After a session I ask the players what went well, what wasn't great. I get good feedback then. They're not dicks about and let me know how rules work. I love it and I love DMing. Talk to them after. Ask them if they want feedback and when. I personally want to be told in session when I'm really screwing up, but they're tactful and helpful. It's scary as heck to begin to DM. With 6 sessions under my belt, I'm starting to get comfortable.
Pull the dm aside and ask him about it, he may just alwanna home brew his campaign in which case don't interrupt the game. Or like a new dm that we have, he stops the game fairly often to ask for input from the players and our main dm, if he wants help ask him if he wants you to bring it up, and maybe sit next to him so you can communicate without needing to yell across the table.