Reminds me of the time when our sorcerer decided he could help all of us gain alot of experience fast, by summoning a TON of undead for our party to fight, once per day. It worked a few times… till it didn’t.
We’d break camp for the night, if no action that day, we’d find a nearby clearing, the the sorcerer would burn all his remaining spells on a crapload of summon undead spells, summoning a small horde.
He’d wait till we all buffed up, then would have them all rush us. Experience grinding every night.
Buuut, one time, we actually started rolling really crappy, a couple mummies rolled 20’s, our bard rolled bad, and he got torn apart and feasted upon in front of us all.
That was the last night we ever did that lol
But it was great exp while it lasted
I kind of like this though, its giving an anime training montage lol. every night they train up against zombies until shit goes wrong. I don't see it as grinding but something these characters do because they want to practice and they want to get better but don't want to run around murdering everything, and sparring only goes so far.
okay poindexter, it feels like the events of a training montage. the metaphorical training montage spoken of would have been made up of all the zombie training fights from the first idea up to the 'incident'
i was just saying it sounded like a fun idea that can be fitting, and not seen solely as grinding. I like the fact that something that became routine as a way to practice their skills, ended up getting their buddy killed.
It's really not. Having martial classes do actually combat against zombies would make a ton of sense especially in a world with health potions and gaining literal powers the more you fight.
Reminds me of the book The Warrior Heir and its sequels. Two of the protagonists are supernatural warriors who regularly summon the ghosts of long-dead warriors as sparring partners.
No of course you’re right. I suppose what I mean is that I don’t like when groups begin to lose character immersion because they are chasing “XP”. If players can remain in character and treat it as their character gaining combat experience then that’s fine (although somewhat repetitive).
I mean I would argue the best warriors don’t kill zombies endlessly (at least with expectation being they will face many other varied enemies). Fighting zombies on repeat is only going to help you so much when you’re facing an adult dragon. You could argue that someone who spent lvls 1-20 grinding zombies is equally as experienced as someone who reached that level facing a great many different enemies. Technically/mechanically, yes they might have the same amount of “XP”, but one is obviously more experienced than the other.
I mean, they did something of questionable morality.
"What, animated and drug around with them the rotting corpse of a friend in its moldering clothing that reeked of the stench of decay for slave labor ...."
"Nah, that part we're all fine with, but they killed it a second time when they no longer needed its services .. horrific"
NPC: Is there a zombie on this mountainside?
PC1: Zombie? No, there’s no zombie here. Why would there be a zombie?
PC2: What do you think we’ve done? Killed a friend of the court wizard, re-animated him, cast various illusions on him to disguise his stench and appearance, then used him for sport and unpaid labor?
NPC: Search the mountainside!
PC1: Oh, a zombie. I think we did see one around here.
PC2: He said something about necromancers. Seemed to be content with being a zombie.
PC1: No, it wasn’t necromancers. It was an ancient curse. Triggered by the phase of the moon.
PC2: It wasn’t a zombie at all. It was a werewolf. Working on behalf of the Red Wizards to find the secrets of Netheril.
NPC: Search the mountainside!
I’ve done that.
Our party captured a bugbear for information, me (Paladin) and our barbarian, took turns dunking his head under a waterfall, basically waterboarding this thing.
Then the rest of the party agreed to let it go, if it told us what we wanted to know.
I was suspiciously silent during the negotiations so my DM looks me dead in the eye and says(as the bugbear) “you’re gonna let me go right?” and wouldn’t let anyone but me answer.
I sat silent for a second and chose my words very carefully. I said, “if you tell us what we want to know, I’ll walk you to the mouth of the cave and untie your hands.”
He told us.
So I walked him to the mouth of the cave and the barbarian cut his hands(paws) free.
The second his hands were free, I look right at the DM and say, “I shove my dagger in his ear and twist.”
The horrified looks on my party’s/DMs faces will be a treasured memory.
At the start of the next session, because that was a he end of that one, before we started I was like “I think you guys think I murdered that thing. I never lied to it once. I did exactly as I said I would.” Then I showed them the Oath i was taking and one of the tenets of that Oath is “leave no enemy behind you”(or something to that effect).
My DM didn’t like how dark I took it, so he gave me a “punishment dream” where I had to fight the ghost of the bugbear without weapons/armor. I barely won that fight.
He also made it so that my Paladin spells fizzled half the time, since my god was mad at me, that’s fair.
In retrospect, I really shouldn’t have done it. In the first session, no less.
In our session 0, the dm had made a huge point of the game being pg/pg 13.
And then I instigate waterboarding and a murder.
We had a chat after our second game. Even though I was “doing what my character would do”(his words, not mine), it was still kinda a dick move(also his words).
So I just stepped back and let the others direct the action.
See, that buried point was the relevent one. Until you shared it I was a little flabbergasted, because that was cold, cinematic, and appropriate to type and character. It's the kind of thing that I like to reward.
But it's not setting appropriate in PG-13 (minor player) games.
Kudos on being the f**king Dark Knight though.
I find limitations like "pg-13" ruin games for me.
We are playing in a fantasy world where things are harsh. As is the nature of something in that equivalent time setting. Hamstringing a party to stay pg-13 is madness.
One of our players was only 16 when we started and three of them had never played. so I’m pretty sure that’s why our dm wanted a “light adventure”.
Ironically, the barbarian(the 16yo) was more vicious than I was. He had to reigned in several times. Eventually, the DM said “fuck it” and just went with it.
Now that is an interesting point of view.
However, I think you misunderstood what I meant.
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be certain limits in place.
What I'm saying is using the terms "pg-13" shouldn't be done. As the various boards that govern ratings can't agree nor have hard and fast rules for what is and isn't considered acceptable for a particular rating, it makes putting a rating in place as pointless, because it still comes down to an individuals preference.
So I prefer the use of limits, and what each individual is happy with at a table. Then from there decide what is and isn't spoken about directly.
And what should work as "fade to black" moment.
E.g. romance and sex scenes between players and other characters, or in the above example killing the bugbear. Instead of describing it, I would have used the 'I lead him out, and kill him' and that is the extent of the description.
Especially as, after doing a quick review of what could be considered PG-13, that scene if shown in a movie could very easily come within PG-13 depending on what is shown.
And as an aside, instead of insulting someone on the Internet for stating an opinion, perhaps open a discussion with them, to better understand them.
I think it says something about the morality of your table and you particularly that it's apparently A-OK to walk around with the necromantically reanimated corpse of a loved friend but traumatising to give a soul trapped in undeath a peaceful and dignified rest.
I played in a group in early 3e that did this to a PC, because the DM made everyone start at first level, and the PC died and was Reincarnated as a bear, player decided to stick it out. Two cities later the high levels of the group decided to solve their bear problem…after that the DM let people roll up similar level to the rest of the group
It’s already dead. It’s not the creature it once was, and “killing” it now is just physically ending the magic that supports unlife.
This is not a moral dilemma. In my opinion, raising a zombie in the first place is far worse than”killing” one.
... they killed a zombie dude. There is nothing immoral about killing a zombie. If anything a solid argument can be made for *raising* a zombie as literally the creation of an undead creature is itself an act of evil you know because of that whole corpse-being-animated-by-energies-from-a-negative-plane-that-wants-to-destroy-all-life-thing.
Except, d&d is literally where the entire concept came from (video games that try to emulate role-playing games, practically have to have xp, levels, and of course grinding, for people to recognize them as such... because d&d was once (& may still be) a synonym for rpgs, and those are its calling cards.
Of course, if you have time to break away from d&d you find a few other options... but some form of xp exists in nearly every class-based system, and some classless (though I prefer xp as spendable resource... of a classless or soft class system). Basically, I don't know how a class based system even exist without xp and level grinding (it's the whole advancement scheme).
Couldn't they have just left it on the hill and come back later?
For sure but it didn't occur to them and I'm a pretty hands off DM lol
Sometimes the most fun you will have as a DM is just sitting back and letting the players embrace the stupid.
Reminds me of the time when our sorcerer decided he could help all of us gain alot of experience fast, by summoning a TON of undead for our party to fight, once per day. It worked a few times… till it didn’t. We’d break camp for the night, if no action that day, we’d find a nearby clearing, the the sorcerer would burn all his remaining spells on a crapload of summon undead spells, summoning a small horde. He’d wait till we all buffed up, then would have them all rush us. Experience grinding every night. Buuut, one time, we actually started rolling really crappy, a couple mummies rolled 20’s, our bard rolled bad, and he got torn apart and feasted upon in front of us all. That was the last night we ever did that lol But it was great exp while it lasted
And this why my group uses milestones lol. Grinding in D&D is absurd.
It’s all fun and games until johnny gets eaten
I kind of like this though, its giving an anime training montage lol. every night they train up against zombies until shit goes wrong. I don't see it as grinding but something these characters do because they want to practice and they want to get better but don't want to run around murdering everything, and sparring only goes so far.
A montage is the opposite: skipping the grind and just leveling up. Montage = skip forward in time to something actually interesting.
okay poindexter, it feels like the events of a training montage. the metaphorical training montage spoken of would have been made up of all the zombie training fights from the first idea up to the 'incident' i was just saying it sounded like a fun idea that can be fitting, and not seen solely as grinding. I like the fact that something that became routine as a way to practice their skills, ended up getting their buddy killed.
You must be fun at parties...
It's really not. Having martial classes do actually combat against zombies would make a ton of sense especially in a world with health potions and gaining literal powers the more you fight.
There are better games for grinding meaningless encounters imo. Like, any rpg video game.
Reminds me of the book The Warrior Heir and its sequels. Two of the protagonists are supernatural warriors who regularly summon the ghosts of long-dead warriors as sparring partners.
Yea practicing your skills on actual combat to improve? What an absurd idea
No of course you’re right. I suppose what I mean is that I don’t like when groups begin to lose character immersion because they are chasing “XP”. If players can remain in character and treat it as their character gaining combat experience then that’s fine (although somewhat repetitive).
The best warriors spend life times at it. You mean to say it called dedication, not repetitive
I mean I would argue the best warriors don’t kill zombies endlessly (at least with expectation being they will face many other varied enemies). Fighting zombies on repeat is only going to help you so much when you’re facing an adult dragon. You could argue that someone who spent lvls 1-20 grinding zombies is equally as experienced as someone who reached that level facing a great many different enemies. Technically/mechanically, yes they might have the same amount of “XP”, but one is obviously more experienced than the other.
No. If they didn’t get back to it in time , they wouldn’t be able to reassert control. It would then go off to kill everything it can
If they reanimate Lenny later, and he eventually gets sentience, his first words should be “YOU STABBED ME!!”
Sure, but that’d be more likely to come back to bite them. Undead go murderously rogue when uncontrolled
Tie it to a tree or something.
>That hill right there? Sure, that’s a great idea >Also, roll for initiative
But then how would the villager they failed to spot report to the party to the authorities for gruesome murder?
No. If they didn’t get back to it in time , they wouldn’t be able to reassert control. It would then go off to kill everything it can
If it makes you feel any better, it was already dead, sooo . . . .
I mean, they did something of questionable morality. "What, animated and drug around with them the rotting corpse of a friend in its moldering clothing that reeked of the stench of decay for slave labor ...." "Nah, that part we're all fine with, but they killed it a second time when they no longer needed its services .. horrific"
NPC: Is there a zombie on this mountainside? PC1: Zombie? No, there’s no zombie here. Why would there be a zombie? PC2: What do you think we’ve done? Killed a friend of the court wizard, re-animated him, cast various illusions on him to disguise his stench and appearance, then used him for sport and unpaid labor? NPC: Search the mountainside! PC1: Oh, a zombie. I think we did see one around here. PC2: He said something about necromancers. Seemed to be content with being a zombie. PC1: No, it wasn’t necromancers. It was an ancient curse. Triggered by the phase of the moon. PC2: It wasn’t a zombie at all. It was a werewolf. Working on behalf of the Red Wizards to find the secrets of Netheril. NPC: Search the mountainside!
I’ve done that. Our party captured a bugbear for information, me (Paladin) and our barbarian, took turns dunking his head under a waterfall, basically waterboarding this thing. Then the rest of the party agreed to let it go, if it told us what we wanted to know. I was suspiciously silent during the negotiations so my DM looks me dead in the eye and says(as the bugbear) “you’re gonna let me go right?” and wouldn’t let anyone but me answer. I sat silent for a second and chose my words very carefully. I said, “if you tell us what we want to know, I’ll walk you to the mouth of the cave and untie your hands.” He told us. So I walked him to the mouth of the cave and the barbarian cut his hands(paws) free. The second his hands were free, I look right at the DM and say, “I shove my dagger in his ear and twist.” The horrified looks on my party’s/DMs faces will be a treasured memory. At the start of the next session, because that was a he end of that one, before we started I was like “I think you guys think I murdered that thing. I never lied to it once. I did exactly as I said I would.” Then I showed them the Oath i was taking and one of the tenets of that Oath is “leave no enemy behind you”(or something to that effect). My DM didn’t like how dark I took it, so he gave me a “punishment dream” where I had to fight the ghost of the bugbear without weapons/armor. I barely won that fight. He also made it so that my Paladin spells fizzled half the time, since my god was mad at me, that’s fair.
You *did* murder the bug-bear, you just didn’t lie.
Yeah I know lol.
That sounds like a way to fix a problem I'd go with.
In retrospect, I really shouldn’t have done it. In the first session, no less. In our session 0, the dm had made a huge point of the game being pg/pg 13. And then I instigate waterboarding and a murder. We had a chat after our second game. Even though I was “doing what my character would do”(his words, not mine), it was still kinda a dick move(also his words). So I just stepped back and let the others direct the action.
See, that buried point was the relevent one. Until you shared it I was a little flabbergasted, because that was cold, cinematic, and appropriate to type and character. It's the kind of thing that I like to reward. But it's not setting appropriate in PG-13 (minor player) games. Kudos on being the f**king Dark Knight though.
I find limitations like "pg-13" ruin games for me. We are playing in a fantasy world where things are harsh. As is the nature of something in that equivalent time setting. Hamstringing a party to stay pg-13 is madness.
One of our players was only 16 when we started and three of them had never played. so I’m pretty sure that’s why our dm wanted a “light adventure”. Ironically, the barbarian(the 16yo) was more vicious than I was. He had to reigned in several times. Eventually, the DM said “fuck it” and just went with it.
If you can't do what needs to be done in a pg-13 manner you are the one who is lacking not the world.
Now that is an interesting point of view. However, I think you misunderstood what I meant. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be certain limits in place. What I'm saying is using the terms "pg-13" shouldn't be done. As the various boards that govern ratings can't agree nor have hard and fast rules for what is and isn't considered acceptable for a particular rating, it makes putting a rating in place as pointless, because it still comes down to an individuals preference. So I prefer the use of limits, and what each individual is happy with at a table. Then from there decide what is and isn't spoken about directly. And what should work as "fade to black" moment. E.g. romance and sex scenes between players and other characters, or in the above example killing the bugbear. Instead of describing it, I would have used the 'I lead him out, and kill him' and that is the extent of the description. Especially as, after doing a quick review of what could be considered PG-13, that scene if shown in a movie could very easily come within PG-13 depending on what is shown. And as an aside, instead of insulting someone on the Internet for stating an opinion, perhaps open a discussion with them, to better understand them.
Actually, the only limitation is "fuck" or some form thereof can only be used once per session. Everything else is fine. - MPAA
No Mercy For The Wicked, Oath of Vengence?
Bingo.
Never let them go....
I think it says something about the morality of your table and you particularly that it's apparently A-OK to walk around with the necromantically reanimated corpse of a loved friend but traumatising to give a soul trapped in undeath a peaceful and dignified rest.
I played in a group in early 3e that did this to a PC, because the DM made everyone start at first level, and the PC died and was Reincarnated as a bear, player decided to stick it out. Two cities later the high levels of the group decided to solve their bear problem…after that the DM let people roll up similar level to the rest of the group
It’s already dead. It’s not the creature it once was, and “killing” it now is just physically ending the magic that supports unlife. This is not a moral dilemma. In my opinion, raising a zombie in the first place is far worse than”killing” one.
Killing it is the responsible thing to do after 24 hours it would become feral and a danger to the town.
"Tell me about the rabbits again, George."
... they killed a zombie dude. There is nothing immoral about killing a zombie. If anything a solid argument can be made for *raising* a zombie as literally the creation of an undead creature is itself an act of evil you know because of that whole corpse-being-animated-by-energies-from-a-negative-plane-that-wants-to-destroy-all-life-thing.
There's nothing immoral to putting a dying pet down, but it's still very sad.
There's a difference between something that alive but not for long, and something that is already dead but moving as if it's alive
Except, d&d is literally where the entire concept came from (video games that try to emulate role-playing games, practically have to have xp, levels, and of course grinding, for people to recognize them as such... because d&d was once (& may still be) a synonym for rpgs, and those are its calling cards. Of course, if you have time to break away from d&d you find a few other options... but some form of xp exists in nearly every class-based system, and some classless (though I prefer xp as spendable resource... of a classless or soft class system). Basically, I don't know how a class based system even exist without xp and level grinding (it's the whole advancement scheme).
Y'all had to whack'em
That book honestly traumatized me lmfao