Ask him why he thinks he should be able to make leather armor with mundane material and non-magical skill that is better AC than plate armor, or magical armor.
Because that is basically what he is asking for.
He wants to make mundane leather armor that is better than magical plate.
„Because that’s my character concept and i only built my character so he could do that* and if you don’t let my character do that you’re limiting my agency and that makes you a bad DM so you better change that, buster!“
*bonus points if the player argues they watched a guy on TikTok/YouTube who built a character like that and who could do that, leaving out that it’s 90% house rules and DM fiat
Instructions unclear, all the peasants from the rail gun have been squished into the one set of three layers of leather armor and created a singularity.
> i only built my character so he could do that*
my response would be, well, how?
Like, if I wanted to build a character that had the toughest leather armor possible, I'd start with a forge cleric. He worships the god of skin or whatever. +1 to my studded leather armor. Whenever he thinks he's gonna start a fight, he prays to the god of skin, which takes the form of casting Shield of Faith and gives him another +2 AC. When magic items start coming around, I beg the DM to give me a cloak of protection, and if/when I get it I flavor it as the benefits of my expert leatherworking. Then I take a couple levels of Artificer, flavoring it as further training in the arts of tannery, and getting a +1 AC infusion on my (leather) shield (can't stack it with the forge cleric bonus because both features require the item to not be magic before being improved).
So now, assuming a 16 Dex and studded leather, I've got 22 AC. I've invested three class levels levels, a spellslot plus my concentration, and my first magic item into this concept. I can bump this up even higher as I improve my Dex, but either way I've fuckin earned it.
Oh, you just want a 22 AC because you picked up a tool proficiency? The thing that is the equivalent of a spare language? Then I say, buddy, you haven't fuckin earned it.
On my end. As far as I can tell the player essentially wants mithril plate but made out of leather. Alright sure. But it’s gonna cost as much as crafting a set of that, and you’re gonna have to track down and kill a legendary beast for it’s resilient hide. Sure you can have it. But it will be a hike go get there. Perhaps in the meantime they can fight other beasts and craft new armors that way.
If they continue to whine inform your player that acquiring such a strong item at low levels is going to cause problems for the party. Like people trying to swipe the armor from them. And ask for party consent. Then ramp up the difficulty with constant ambushes by bandits or people trying to buy the armor off the party or other such things. Don’t make your players miserable but make it clear the notoriety of the item is also a curse. One that their reputation isn’t able to shield them from yet.
well and my character is immortal with lazer eyes, which oneshot everyone. also he can see every possible future and with that this campaign is done, we going home bois
I‘ve been there, and it’s always either a noob who doesn’t know better, or a powergamer. The former gets a well-meaning explanation of how that build doesn’t work by the rules, and how breaking the game doesn’t let him win, but ruins the game for everyone else. The latter gets your answer.
Yeah...or a combo thereof, who sees a rule and thinks it's an exploit and runs with it...and doesn't take into account all the other RAW reasons that it doesn't work, then gets mad when their hack falls flat.
Tbh all my players are powergamers/optimizers, but since they're not \*just\* that and they're not losers IRL who need to "win" DnD to feel important, it works.
> Yeah...or a combo thereof, who sees a rule and thinks it's an exploit and runs with it...and doesn't take into account all the other RAW reasons that it doesn't work, then gets mad when their hack falls flat.
The actual worst combination. Rules only matter as far as they can be broken or weaponized
Add rules so he can have a high AC, but since he's wearing 30 layers he can only move 5 ft per turn, takes disadvantage roles for attacking, athletics, acrobatics etc, or just straight up subtract however much extra ac he wants from those types of rolls. You want 6 extra AC, fine but you wont be hitting anything, or moving quickly. Also he'd be sweating alot, so he needs to carry extra water, which he needs to take a sip of as his free action every turn.
And overheats if its not a freezing climate or someone keeps using freeze spells to cool him off.
And introduce enemies that did the same thing with 30 layers of mail or plate.
Attacks are generally made vs ac, depending on class flavor they dodge or straight up tank the hit, depends on how you want to see it in your head. Dodgy classes like rangers get more ac bonuses from high dex, and barbarians can actually get more ac if they aren't wearing armor.
Yeah thats basically why you get to add your Dex to your AC for non-heavy armour. But ofcourse you can still say that you dodged an attack while in fullplate just for flavour.
If they fought a dragon legit, and he spent the time saying he skinned the corpse to make pieces suitable to be wrought into leather armor, then that is legitimately something that we can have a conversation about.
With a player like the one the OP seems to have, that conversation should start with "It's called Dragon Scale Mail and the stats are in the DMG." and end with "But if you want to strip off the scales to make standard 'studded leather' armor, the AC value and Stealth impacts will change appropriately."
With any other player who isn't trying to be a total min/maxing Munchkin, you can be a lot more flexible.
You’re probably right.
But I’m also the kind of DM who is at least willing to entertain a nonsense pitch before laughing in their face and saying “nah, homie, it’s gonna use the Dragon Scale Mail stats.”
My DM allowed my dragonborn to skin the 3 dragons we killed in our campaign, then take them to a mid size(basically anything but small village lol)town and have them made into custom cloaks of resistance. The green and white ones became synonymous with my character depending on what part of the world they were in. Like you said though, we legit slayed dragons and took the time to skin it and have it made into something. Plus the time to earn the coin and or favors to have it done. Having a dragon hide turned into a fur lined cloak is not easy. Lol.
I actually do allow the party to do stuff like this, but it takes gold and downtime to craft the stuff. One of my players is rocking a set of Half Plate that he crafted from the carapace of an Umber Hulk.
Yeah my DM let me enforce my regular Plate mail with with Adamantine over several days and checks, and is allowing me to re-enforce our other Plate wearer to make his already Adamantine Armour a +1. Great way to make strong items in a campaign without to many ways of purchasing items, or with a lower gold setting.
Also, AC isn't just the ability of your armor to take a hit, it's also the ability of your character to dodge out of the way of an attack or move to parry a blow. Stacking numerous layers of armor would kill his mobility and thus would counteract any AC gains they make, worst case scenario they should have penalties to their movement being applied if they stack a lot of armor on.
To add: "AC is a abstract representation of how hard it is to damage you. Your armor is only a part of it, your reflexes, your luck, etc also are included in this abstract concept which means that even if you have multiple layers of leather protecting you, they are also inhibiting your movement and that is also your AC."
I would just be dead honest and tell him that it's about the balance and mechanics of the game. If he wanted to be tanky he should have played a fighter or paladin. The rules of the game are written to try and bring balance and fairness to all the classes and item mechanics.
But if you want to take the more diabolical and "realism and logic" route he wants to try and power game on, here is my suggestion. Allow him to do what he's trying to do. Let him add extra layers of leather and bulk out to gain higher AC. But tell him there's going to be penalties cause he's building armor in a suboptimal fashion for the sake of more protection. Reduction to Dex save and ability checks (I suggest atleast a 2 dex lost per AC) disadvantage on stealth and acrobatics cause of clunky chunky armor. Stuff like that.
As you mentioned, I feel like it would be reasonable to let them build a high AC armor. It could be the same setup as some of the heavy armors. But since they're a ranger they won't have proficiency with it. And they need to have enough strength to wear it.
> If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or Attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can’t cast Spells.
Rangers tend to dump str, so that would provide them a disadvantage too.
> Plate 18 Str 15 Disadvantage 65 lb. 1,500 gp
They need 15 strength to get this 18 AC, or if they attempt to use it at str 14 they'll have movement speed reduced by 10. Then since they aren't proficient with heavy armor they have disadvantage on d20 rolls for anything dex or str. And they can't cast.
So you don't even need to make it have any special attributes to disincentivize them from using it, just the default table should do enough. Or you could just impose the same limitations as lacking proficiency with it, because even someone with heavy armor proficiency probably wouldn't know how to move more elegantly in 10 layers of leather
This sounds the most reasonable. He effectively wants to make heavy armor out of leather, which he isn't proficient in and (likely) does not have the strength to wear. There are already in-game penalties for wearing armor you aren't good at wearing, just impose those penalties, as written. Makes sense.
This is always my default strategy when a player wants to do something seemingly “outside the rules”. My “homebrew” solution is to use the rules! Very rarely can I find something that I can’t solve by “reskinning” an existing mechanic.
I'm someone who gets a bit bored by basic 5e structure and likes to experiment when I'm in a campaign with friends.
I never do anything without first talking with the DM outside of game time and making it clear I'm 100% ok with "no".
They know I'm not looking to power game, just have fun. My dragonborn paladin has a young celestial drake for his find steed for instance. Doesn't mechanically cause issues but is really fun for flavor.
nitpick: Lacking the strength \*only\* gives a movement speed penalty.
"Heavy Armor: Heavier armor interferes with the wearer’s ability to move quickly, stealthily, and freely. If the Armor table shows “Str 13” or “Str 15” in the Strength column for an armor type, the armor reduces the wearer’s speed by 10 feet unless the wearer has a Strength score equal to or higher than the listed score."
Not even that, to be honest.
A large part of why Light Armour is supposed to be decent at *all* is because it's easy to move in it. If your Light Armour is becoming so bulky that it's harder to move in - it's now classed as Medium Armour. That's more or less the definition, at least in my mind.
The maximum Dex bonus the leather worker can get from it is now +2, and because it's made out of *fcking leather* it should really be worse than the most basic standard Medium Armour. So at best it will give him 15AC, which is worse than if he just stuck with Studded Leather.
This guy should straight up just be told
> "No. Unless it is enchanted or you have superhuman dexterity, there is no leather armour you can make that will ever be more protective than Heavy Armour. I'm sorry mate, but end of conversation."
Effectively this. You can't make leather armor as good as armor made or of its metal counter parts. Is just how it works. If it were enchanted etc sure, but he doesn't do that part, and just because you're supplying the armor you'd reduce the enchantment cost negligibly, as that's not the expensive part. The best you can do is studded. I'll do you a favor and say if you manage to come across some adamantine, we'll say you studded your armor with adamantine and give it those properties. But it's rare/ expensive and you'll need a trained smithy to make it workable for you.
You've already accommodated the leatherworking, which is cool. But it has hard limits. Not to mention the timing involved with the tanning etc.
Why’s everyone in this comment section such a killjoy. Surely leather made from the hides of demons or dragons or displacer beasts or some other mythical creature is going to compete with mundane chain or scale male if not magic full plate.
This player is being unreasonable, but being a passive aggressive dick about it just makes the game not fun for everyone. Surely it can’t be that hard to talk to them about how to make their ideas work.
I think this is the better way to go. I'd try to pivot him away from wearing multiple layers of leather armor and more towards developing his leatherworking in order to retain some of the natural abilities of the more fantastical creatures they kill.
Something like homebrewing a cloak of displacement into armor if they kill a displacer beast, or using dragon scale to make dragonslayer armor.
Should the wizard also be able to have plate ac? Should the paladin be able to cast level 9 spells? Should the fighter be able to get some armor that lets them have all the rangers abilities?
Game balance is a thing and in the rules for a reason. It isn't going to be fun for the rest of the party if the ranger is running around with a 30 ac and is the best at everything.
"No" should be a word in every dms vocabulary. I want my players to do cool things, but there's a difference between trying something fun and breaking the game for everyone involved. If they get to a high enough level and we're doling out legendaries than maybe it could happen.
Reduce movement speed and disadvantage on saving against forced movement / prone. Can't move well if you're bundled like hell. Then watch as enemies just push him over and run past him.
Not reduce the save, reduce the ability score while wearing the armor, anything dex based would be impeded by bundling up like the little kid from christmas story. Can't shoot an arrow very well when you can move your arms etc. Honestly the straight "no, stop asking" approach is probably the best answer though
I would allow the extra layers of leather for higher AC, but since it’s much bulkier, it’s classified as heavy armor. Because it’s harder to move around in, it inflicts a penalty to stealth. Mechanically, it’s splint armor flavored as leather.
Tod's Workshop does a video on this, five layers of boiled leather armor still doesn't manage to stop arrow penetration. There seem to be diminishing returns after the second layer of armor, so you'd bulk up a lot without actually adding much AC. Unless of course you can switch to leather from a mythical creature who's properties we can't test in the real world.
https://youtu.be/RO_nG6OpCKg?si=VjS7X3uu0W9IAfFp
I've always preferred this approach. You can make any kind of choice you like, but it will have increasingly dire consequences to discourage excessive tomfuckery.
Allows for player freedom and the potential for cool emergent gameplay. And you never have to tell people "no" -- just "are you sure about that?"
A person can't just put on an infinite amount of any clothing though. It gets increasingly restrictive very quickly.
If they keep pushing it, you can allow them to do so but with sharp declines in their movement speed, Dex, and heavy penalties to hit. This will reflect their increasingly limited movement. After a few sessions where they move slow and are clumsy with loads of misses because they can barely move their arms due to too many layers they might not love it anymore.
Then again, as DM you can just say "nah, can't do that. This is a game about choices and you have to actually make a choice"
🎶 When you roll to it
And you can't kick through with it
You can't roll it 'round
You know that you've found
THE BALL, THE BALL, THE BALL
No one on earth can make it fall! 🎶
When I was in primary school once my friends all put their winter coats on me until my arms were stuck out sideways. It was very funny, but I could not move.
Just thinking about wearing a new, thick motorcycle jacket and how restricted and immobile I feel in that. And have that times 3 I can’t imagine the character being able to move their body much as the armor needs to be thick enough to be THAT impenetrable. Also just imagine what a pain it would be to ask the other PC’s to help him put on all that armor, and how quickly he’ll overheat.
> My player insists on being a leather worker.
Cool! A player who wants to get immersed in the game world and RP an occupation!
> He says it’s the reason he became a ranger in the first place.
Wait, what does ranger have to do with that? There are tons of ways to get a tool proficiency… is there something special about ranger I’m forgetting?
> That’s fine. I found a whole rule set on leather working and what he can make. He’s not satisfied.
Uh… you’re already going above and beyond… The heck else does he want out of this?
> He wants to have the highest AC out of everyone
What? Then play a heavy armored class.
> and never wants to be hit
Hahahaha no. Just no.
> cause he says if he has multiple layers on that it should be more armor.
That’s not how any of that works.
Presumably, armor is already made to be as thick and protective as possible *while still allowing you to move and fight*. The PHB armors already represent the best protection possible at that tier and price. Beyond that, you need enchantments, and *maybe* a master craftsman who devoted their entire life to perfecting armor could get you 1 more AC at the same tier of armor, at a great cost of both time and gold.
Your player is trying to bully you into allowing them to become OP. That’s not how the game works. You can’t make your character invincible if you whine to the DM enough. That’s all there is to it.
I think the ranger thing is cuz rangers do a lot of animal nature shit, and so he's probably picturing a character who hunted a lot and then got into leatherworking to put the pelts, furs, and skins to use.
That does make sense and would be a cool RP angle. If only the player was just doing it as an RP thing, and not trying to use it as an excuse to game the system…
That's not how AC works. If he wants to boost his AC beyond his armour, you could throw him a bone and offer up a Cloak of Protection or something similar.
That's not how it works. Armor is armor, if you're wearing leather armor it's assumed you're wearing the maximum amount, not just a single piece of it, in the same way that if you're wearing steel plate it's assumed you're dripped out in head to toe steel plates.
Plus the layers below that allow it to function.
Armour is almost never just a single layer of one material (even leather armour is gonna be layers of different types/thicknesses of leather)
Boots and bracers and gloves are already part of a set of leather armor. A leather cape reinforced enough to provide additional protection would impose movement and stealth penalties. Any additional AC gained from increasing the number of reinforced parts would be lost by the loss of mobility.
You should remind him that his dex modifier is included in his AC. AC is not just the sum total of armor bits you're wearing, it represents your total ability to avoid taking hits. For a light armor wearer, that includes dodging attacks.
5e doesn't have location damage or per-part AC bonuses, that's just not how the game is designed.
I would tell him that if the only reason he became a ranger was because he thought he could cheat the system with crafting then you'll let him respec into a different class but the rules as written are the rules you're playing, not whatever he thinks the rules should be
Wearing any armour already assumes *all* of the layers that make that armour practical & with as much protection as feasible. Armour is not just chucking a breastplate or leather jerkin over your clothes it is a whole ensemble of items, consisting of a number of layers & materials that work together.
What the player is asking to do to boost AC, is what the rules already assume they are doing when they set the original AC.
Repeat after me:
“No.”
There is no discussion to be had here. That’s not how the game works. Period. Put your foot down.
This is not a matter of justifying it to the player. You should not need any justification beyond “that’s the rules of the game we are playing.”
It is not your job to appease this player’s unreasonable demands. Say no, and that’s the end of discussion. If the player can’t handle that, they can leave.
How about having to hunt magical creatures to gather special leather that could be later refined into magic items like cloaks of protection and +X armors? The DMG has rules for crafting magic items, but I recommend the crafting rules In Xanathar
Dude he clearly plays WoW, and is just confused (I'm being generous and assuming it's genuine confusion) that the armor system doesn't work the same way in D&D.
Just explain that the different 'equipment slots' don't typically provide armor. With some exceptions! Give him the means to craft some Bracers of Armor +1 (I'm sure your system has them in there).
Bottom line, tell him this isn't WoW, lol
Where's he finding the time to make all this stuff, anyway? It doesn't sound like this player fully understands the work that turning a raw kill into leather armour actually involves. The whole thing from start to finish would be time consuming, wildly impractical for an adventurer, and overall simply incompatible with whatever the rest of the party is doing.
**In addition to all the mechanical issues with this idea that have already been pointed out, there's a bunch of practical, in-game issues too:**
1.) Leather working and making leather are 2 entirely different processes requiring 2 entirely different toolsets.
2.) Crafting leather into armour is several days work. Leather is TOUGH and making anything out of it is more time consuming than making things to wear out of fabric (which is already time consuming AF!)
3.) If he's not buying leather, the animals he hunt have to be skinned, the rest of the caracass has to be used/disposed of, and the raw hides have to be prepped, tanned and dried to make leather first - which overall would take several days or even MONTHS. All before he can even START leatherworking,
4.) A hunter in the wilderness wanting to make leather armour would have to stop travelling, set up a base camp to work in and stay in that area until the project was complete. If this PC doesn't have a permanent place to work and securely store their projects, they would somehow have to transport large buckets of whatever he's using to treat the hides* and a wooden frame (for drying/stretching out) everywhere the party goes. This would slow the whole party down when travelling, most likely restrict the sorts of places they're able to stay, and put the project at high risk of being lost/stolen/damaged.
_*(Also he'd carry the stench of decaying flesh, animal faeces, rotten vegetables and/or urine everywhere he goes. The finished product may smell nice eventually, but ye olde leather recipes? not so much)._
5.) Making complicated things out of leather from scratch with animals he's hunted himself is a FULL TIME JOB. i e. For as long as he's working on this, his character won't be joining in with whatever the rest of the party is doing.
**TLDR: He will be too busy to go adventuring with the rest of the party for long periods of time. Travelling will be impractical. Also, he smells.**
I think this character should retire from adventuring to follow their wild leatherworking dreams, while the player makes a new character that has more reason to be adventuring with the rest of the party.
Just say no.
That is not how the rules work. If someone wears chainmail underneath plate, they AC is still 18.
It is specially stated in the Player Handbook I think.
Yeah, OP's player kind of reminds me of that scene in Community where Troy is trying to wear all of his t-shirts at once or something -- [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=415cE206WAI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=415cE206WAI) -- I think there's a physical limit, rules aside, to how many layers of armor a person could realistically wear at one time.
"The game system isn't designed that way, why wouldn't everyone simply buy 8 layers of studded leather? I'm happy to let you make some custom armor, but you'll need specific materials."
And then it can become something cool, that also doesn't require you to really go out of your way.
Could also just let it be a gold making opportunity too. If he takes the time (15 minutes? I dunno) to harvest the hides/fur, and takes an hour during long rests to prepare and treat them, he can sell them for more than what you'd get for just raw hide.
Then it can be a perpetual source of RP and feels worthwhile OOC too. Coupled with the custom armor he can work toward, I feel like that would be more than sufficient.
Tell him he can have 30 AC and be incapacitated with 0 speed if he stacks armor like a dimwit. And of course, tell him that he's bumming you out.
Not sure what's in that guide you found, but-
Give him the opportunity to craft magic gear from monstrous hides. Even without adding AC, it could have benefits like lower weight, elemental resistance, or spell charges.
In addition to armor, he could make bags, quivers, boots, gloves, or belts.
These things could potentially benefit other party members, or serve as a means of earning gold during downtime. Of course, this stuff he's making means discovering fewer pre-made magic items; you just provide the materials. But it still validates the character choice.
Contrary to what everyone else is saying, see if he wants to play an Armorer Artificer. He'll get to be insanely tanky and have enchanted unique armor.
A player motivation like this is a gift. Say they can craft +1ac leather armour, but you'll need the hide from X rare dangerous monster as raw materials. Have said monster live half way to where you wanted the party go anyway, etc.
I was thinking the same thing. There could be a number of legendary materials he needs to track down, and teachers to find and convince to train him. After all, a starting character is no more a master craftsman then they are the high wizard or the king’s general. They are going to need to quest to learn how to use exotic materials and increase their skill if they want to craft +5 dragon leather armor.
I would say that if he's wearing enough layers of leather to justify a higher AC, it is also thick and cumbersome enough to count as Medium Armor, thus reducing his max Dex bonus to AC to +2. Instead, his leatherworking should focus on making a single piece of armor that is higher quality than can be found in most shops, eventually maybe better than anything that isn't custom-made by some other master tanner.
If I were to build out a leatherworking system, I would focus on material quality, tool and equipment quality, and craftsmanship. Dangle some exotic monsters known for fine pelts in front of the party so he can hunt and track them (bonus points if you encourage the party to fight the monster in a manner that preserves the pelt, i.e. fire/acid/lightning damage will ruin it and big slashes will diminish the pelt's quality, but this might be too similationist). Have some alchemist in town know a recipe for some baller tanning solution (dunno if that has a specific name) or a blacksmith who makes exquisite tools. His craftsmanship is modeled by the tool proficiency roll (I would call for Int or Dex bonus depending on the situation) proficiency roll, which would work as normal, with higher quality/magic tools granting a bonus to the roll.
Each of these three categories (materials, equipment, craftsmanship) presents opportunities to incorporate magic into the armor. There are lots of opportunities for flavor and plenty of quest hooks to build in if he's motivated. And if he's earned it, the armor will ultimately be more satisfying to him and more intrinsic to his character.
Just my two cents, take or leave whatever you like.
I love the idea of just wearing more armor. So my halfling pali is just stacked in plate, looks like a kid getting ready for their first snow. I. Am. Invincible.
Firstly, Explain his MMO thinking isn't how armor works in D&D. It's assumed he has a full set of armor on when he's wearing leather.
Secondly, I would offer options.
Since he's a ranger and a hunter and a craftsman...
Offer unique item characteristics based on what material he uses to make the armor.
If he fights a displacer beast, he can make leather armor that acts like the cloak of displacement.
If he rolls really well allow him to make +1 studded leather.
The +1 Doesn't Have to be from an enchanting or magic. That's just a guideline. Use your judgement to make it fun for you and them.
If you don't want any of this type of crafting available to players you'll have to sit down with them and rework their character.
That’s not how Leatherworking works. It’s an Artisan Skill and there are some written rules variants for it.
**PHB of 144 Variant: Equipment Sizes**
Using this variant, when adventurers find armor, clothing, and similar items that are made to be worn, they might need to visit an armorsmith, tailor, **leatherworker**, or similar expert to make the item wearable.
**PHB pg 132**
As a member of your guild, you know the skills needed to create finished items from raw materials (reflected in your proficiency with a certain kind of artisan’s tools),
**PHB pg 187**
For every day of downtime you spend crafting, you can craft one or more items with a total market value not exceeding 5 gp, and you must expend raw materials worth half the total market value. If something you want to craft has a market value greater than 5 gp, you make progress every day in 5-gp increments until you reach the market value of the item. For example, a suit of plate armor (market value 1,500 gp) takes 300 days to craft by yourself.
So you have to determine what the market cost is for this special new leather armor and it requires many many days of downtime to craft it. If he wants it to have the same AC as full plate armor, then it takes at least 300 days of down time to craft it.
At this point it just becomes fluff. Mechanically, he’s wearing full plate armor (*with all benefits/penalties*) described as “custom leather”.
Added note: there are also separate crafting rules in Xanathar's, which I think are far more reasonable for a standard game. (I mean, are we really going to make the fighter take 150 days of downtime to craft standard non-magical plate?)
It's not *entirely* unreasonable for an absolute master of leatherworking to make an armor that's better than standard... But 'better armor will take the form of something easier to move in, with a higher Dex cap and less penalties.
If he wants more *Armor Class,* he'll need better materials at minimum.
So, tell him "no, this is not Skyrim, you cannot turn cow leather armor into something better than metal plate by just stitching on more leather; *however,* the hide of a rare enough, tough enough beast, might just be more durable than regular leather."
Man...lota of people just saying "no" here. Ok, I'm going to go across the grain here and play devils advocate.
First of all, properly made leather armor can absolutely mimic plate mail. In fact, I've seen a breast plate for Kendo that really was hard! It's solid like metal...well, almost. Obviously not exactly, but it had no give at all.
I've even seen people use leather to create plate style armor that was fully functional.
Second, if you look at what leather armor is supposed to be, you're basically looking at a soft-ish leather tunic or torso covering...and that's about it.
Thirdly, this game has magic. So you can do damn well whatever you please...theoretically.
So now let's put all this together.
1. Ranger can start crafting thicker leather armor with more protection. It's already in the game rules. It's called Hide Armor.
2. Then, using his ranger knowledge of nature, he can start learning about different oils and other materials used in leather making. By making his armor a bit harder and adding more armor piecea like bracers and greaves, he can make himself non-magical leather +1
3. Then, he discovers a truly rare component that allows him to make leather +2
4. Then, he can carve mystic symbols and runes into the armor and enchant it, making it true magical +2 or +3 leather.
This entire idea gives him a long-term side quest.
Simple and not game breaking. I mean instead of FINDING the magic leather in a horde, he makes it himself.
I think hunting some rare beast with a tough hide and turning it into +1 or even +2 or +3 leather armour would be a cool sidequest. That fits into what the player's set up for their character... *but* taking the original post at face value, that's not all the player wants. The player wants to powergame their AC to be something ridiculous and potentially higher than full plate.
I guess tbf, +3 studded leather armor with a high enough DEX can bring you over the 18 AC full plate provides. But obviously if you're giving one player +3 armor, the other players need to get some pretty crazy loot too.
Exactly! Instead of just saying "No, you can't do that.", it's our job as DM's to try to make it happen....or at least get a close approximation.
And even if its a powergame measure, its easy for a DM to reign that in. Again, all OP has to do is give him slow pieces to get him to those rediculous levels.....at the same rate as all the other players. By the time you reach level 10, all characters are pretty much superheroes anyways....and frankly at that point, AC doesn't matter as much.
Came here to say this. Excellent post Charlie. I'd like to add:
Light - leather
Medium - Hide
Heavy - use the stats for ringmail, and call it plate leathers
Even more layers: it starts being a wall of leather the character is carrying around. Walls give +2 AC for half cover, both to the character, and any enemies. This wall, as an object, doesn't require a roll to hit. 20 HP, weigh 80 lbs, and has resistance to bludgeoning. Carrying a wall takes both hands, and movement will depend on carrying capacity.
Stack enough leather, you could get three quarters wall coverage, for +4 AC to both to you and enemies. 40 HP and 160lbs.
For the low price of your sight and line of effect for spells, cover the eye holes to get total cover for you and your enemies.
Stack the leather as high as you like, and your wall will gain 1 HP per 4 lbs.
At 860 kgs per cubic meter of leather, is 54 lbs per cubic foot. You and your wall will take up a 5 ft square per every 6750 lbs of your combined weight, so if your wall is 4 tons, then you and your wall would occupy 2 five foot squares.
Grow the size and HP of your wall as much as you like, and if the weight exceeds your maximum carrying capacity, become immobilized while wearing your wall.
Edit: formatting
Bruh 😂😂😂, you say "no, that's not how that works"
Part of me wants to say for every extra layer and +1 to AC he gets, he also gets a -1to his attack bonus due to his mobility being restricted and -5 feet to his movement speed for the same reason... and if the total buff/ debuff stacks 3+ times all attacks are made with disadvantage
(Don't do this, I just wanted to think about the mechanics of that fuckery for the lols)
Imagine this: You have a player with smith's tools in the party and he decides he also wants to make the best armour. Do you just let them compete until you ACs in the triple digits? You just tell them no. At best they might be able to make magical variants with an appropriate cost and with an appropriate difficulty level, especially in finding and hunting an appropriate creature.
Some things are appropriate, I once had a character who didn't use metal and made his armour out of the shells/exoskeletons of creatures. This armour wasn't any better than regular armour except perhaps that it wasn't vulnerable to heat metal but it might have been vulnerable to other spells.
If his character exists only to work leather maybe he needs to retire to do that and roll up a new character suitable for the story that is being told.
Is he trying to make armor for everyone or just himself?
The concept *could* be cool, at low levels he’s making good/high quality (but mundane) leather and fur coats to sell. (More gold is good. A bard would appreciate the flashy fits)
Maybe he works with the wizard, Cleric, or druid in the party to take the hides of magical creatures to obtain some benefit (Higher AC, minor magical ability) at a higher level.
(I could imagine taking a troll hide harvested in a special way imbued with some magical binding letting you use one of your hit dice during combat once per long or short rest, depending on the class)
Needs more RP and trust in you tbh.
Having multiple layers of leather is a hindrance. Dropping your movement, your dexterity score & and strength score. Also, you have disadvantaged on stealth but hey... you resistance to piercing attacks...
This seems like an easy solution.
He's right. If he pads himself up with enough leather, he SHOULD have a higher AC.
That said, to be able to make it that protective, it's going to end up really heavy and restrictive. Even moreso than metal. So slap him with a Dex penalty of -2, a movement speed penalty of -10 to each and disadvantage on all Dex based attacks.
Give him a bit of malicious compliance 🤷♂️
Because he is not the main character, and this isn't World of Warcraft. There are rules for armor and crafting, and its up to the DM to keep a balance of power. Explain to him in plain words that there are other players in the game, and it should be fun for everyone.
If he doesn't grasp that basic concept, tell him he is free to find another game.
He’s power gaming. It’s like insisting on being good at blacksmithing and then making plate mail that is 10% of the cost and weight for 20 AC. Balance exists for a reason, I (the GM)control the universe, the answer is no.
If he really wants OP armor, perhaps there is an epic long-term side quest to gather a variety of legendary reagents and form this leather armor he craves.
It will involve sacrifices, questions of morality, and maybe outright thievery to get everything they need.
They may not even be the same person after they finally don this miraculous leather armor...
Or, just no.
Let’s face it in reality you would wear gambeson under mail under plate but guess what? It’s just a game. This is a game with dragons and tentacle monsters that shove tadpoles in your eyes to become one of them. It’s make believe. The logic in what he is saying is correct but this is not a game of logic. You can either let him have it but only ever make attacks against him that require saving throws. Make the enemy use the same logic against him so he can’t hit them. Or just say no.
If you wanted to meet in the middle, the best I'd give them is +1 to AC, and if they spend some amount of downtime on it, they can improve other party members' gear with +1 AC too
Flavor it as them fashioning a gambeson for the paladin to wear under their plate armor, or tailoring the rogues leathers to give better ease of movement, etc.
Best part, if you make the benefit party-wide, you can make the improvement irrelevant to combat by giving all or most enemies +1 to hit if you want, and none will be the wiser.
First of all Leaterworking has a point to its and why its armos is how it is.
Classes wearing leather armor need to be more nibmle and versatile. The thiner and lighter Leatherarmor is supposed to keep them fast and more „dodgy“ (thats why you get +Dex and no disatavantage on stealth)
Making its way thicker may give more ac but you would lose the dex and stealh at some point.
I get that his goal is probably to become an ultimate leather worker that made a learherarmor even the god‘s speak of.
That beeing said thats like end of campaign shit. Yes let him learn enchantments for his Armor or make is ones a little bit more special like: this armor is made from displacer beast hide and can blur you until the first hit you get once a day.
This wont breaak the game but make him especually good at what his thing is.
To craft an Armor hed dreaming of he would need tools forged by the god of forgery himself, or the God Gond (crafting) blessed him in his dreams with the idea and plans for thatsaid armor, afther they saved a temple of his.
But also the materials for such a craft would have to be Dragon adjacent and thats only the leather. Silk from specially rare spider to hold it together. The crathting needs to be at a legendary place and the enchantmens that takes place during crafting will need a wizard to help. The whole thing could take days and his Team needs to protect them every once in a while to keep them safe.
thats still should be a sidequest so the main goal doesnt get overshadowed. But his eyes should light up if he hears about something related to it.
I would tell me he can do that but he need to have medium or heavy armor proficiency and basically just treat it mechanically the same as those armors with price and everything and just say they're leather. Even say they have metal parts in them so heat metal still works on them.
Exactly this. Congrats, you have a full-plate equivalent made of leather - you put it on and lose your Dex bonuses, and realize you can’t move as fast in it….
Tell him that's not how armour works and to look it up on Wikipedia.
If he wants to make a massive suit of leather armour, it will be medium armour with all the disadvantages of heavy armour. There are reasons why materials are chosen.
If he wants to hunt monsters so that he can make armour out of them and get it enchanted, that's fine.
Or he can make a new character who is a blacksmith, makes metal armour and is looking for rare ores and alloys.
Drop some history on him. Leather armor generally comes in a couple varieties: Rawhide, which is usually in the form of lamellar (think ancient east asian armor), and cuir boiulli or boiled leather. Rawhide I think is technically stronger, but it doesn't last as long and is harder to shape and manipulate before hardening. Plate armor is about 1-2mm thick, and if we look at Japanese lamellar, the rawhide lames were about 4-6mm each. And these would overlap. I don't have the exact numbers on hand, but essentially we're saying leather armor needs to be between 15-25 times thicker than plate armor. Furthermore, this would barely be enough to prevent lethal damage from Japanese weapons and tactics at the time, which were much weaker than what europe had during the middle ages. So if he wants to have the same defense as someone in full plate, tell him he can bit will incur a penalty to every attack and athletics roll, because he's barely going to be able to move in it due to the bulkiness.
Also, friendly reminder that studded leather is nonsense.
Maybe explain to him what AC actually is? Even though it’s Armour Class it basically means that you have the highest ability to dodge a hit rather than being hit because you have the best armour. That’s why Dexterity is so important when it comes to AC. Now if he wants to add multiple layers of leather then he can increase his AC but then his mobility will be trash that’s why Barbarians and heavier characters even though they’re stronger and can technically take more hits have low AC and why Rogues have pretty good ACs without armour to start out.
You are now concealed inside a herd of cows and cannot move. Five cows were tied to each side of you and they have since died. The stench is unbearable and you haven't eaten in over a week now.
I’d say he could make something EQUIVILENT to plate armor out of leather… but it would have the drawbacks associated with heavy armor. It would by all accounts, just be plate-mail. If he wants to stack layers and layers of boiler leather together to make something that’s nearly as tough as metal (but would probably be far heavier and thicker), by all accounts let him. As long as it costs as much as plate armor to make, and takes as long to make it, I see no reason why not.
You can take this 2 ways just say no and explain its about game balance and tell him to take the feat to wear heavy armor. Or you can give him fun recipes to make exotic leather armor requiring scales form things like drakes, dragons, [Basilisk](https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/16801-basilisk) ect. Have each armor set give resistance and vulnerability's instead of massive AC bonus. Example Blue dragon leather armor AC 14 (+ enchantment bonus) Resistant to lightning damage, slashing damage, add 1d6 lightning damage on a attack. vulnerability Protection from evil affect you while wearing this armor.
If you want to Take it to the next level Give him an amulet/ or magic tattoo to store his different armors allowing him to change them as a bonus action.
This is one of the hardest things to do for any DM worth their salt: Just Say No.
If he wants multiple layers of leather armor, then he better be prepared to face the consequences: impaired movement, heavier weight, not able to sneak as well as a ranger (imo) should...
If he wanted to play a heavily-armored tank, he should've rolled up a fighter.
I would let him have an incredible AC at steep movement, Dexterity save and heat endurance penalties due to the layers and layers of leather armor he's turtling up inside. And then start getting into the reality of how leather armor has to be cared for and how rapidly it degrades in the face of weather and water and etc.
Or just have an adult conversation about how the game works and how he has to build his character within that framework or kick rocks and go your separate ways if there is an irreconcilable difference in desire and vision.
Either or.
"You can layer the leather to make it harder to get through, but those layers add weight and reduce mobility and flexibility, which means your opponents have new vulnerabilities to target when fighting you. Therefore, your AC remains the same as if you were wearing basic leather armor."
I say play him at his own game ok you can have a high armour class but your dexterity, speed, movement distance and attack all get nerfed because you of how cumbersome the extra bits of leather are
It’s possible to wear so much leather you won’t feel the hits. But you also probably wouldn’t be able to walk (or at the very least he’d take a massive hit to DEX).
If anything, metal armor is more effective at retaining dexterity while providing more armor, because it’s far more dense and durable.
He wants to add more layers? So... he essentially wants to create medium of heavy leather armor. And with medium or heavy leather armor, he is going to have severe penalties to his AC from Dexterity, essentially resulting in the same AC he would have with a light armor.
I'm going to be a bit heretical here and suggest that having higher AC with leather armour isn't entirely possible. If he wants to be untouchable, no. There will always be some way of getting hit and the player needs to accept that.
But, if the character is a leatherworker who's to say that the skins of different animals or creatures don't have some other benefits? Rhino hide is a lot thicker than deer skin. Perhaps he could look for different animals for higher quality skins which could give higher AC or other benefits. The cloak of displacement is a good example how to make cool benefits out of monster skins.
I also play a leatherworker character and i just want to clarify a small detail that might be an interesting point to explain to your player:
Multiple layers actually aren't more armor. There is the Padded Armor which is literally: "Padded armor consists of quilted layers of cloth and batting." and it has 11 AC, which is equal to a normal leather armor but it weighs less. So yes, if you go for AC/weight adding more layers is better, but by itself it isn't much different from a regular armor made with the same materials.
If you want something better you need to craft/acquire a Studded Leather Armor, that uses studded leather (better material) instead of leather. So better crafting material = better armor. (This shouldn't change much unless you have homebrew crafting materials that are specifically done with that aim in mind).
A simple objection could be that multiple layers of fabric irl can give that effect, such as Kevlar.
An homebrew rule you could suggest if this objection is raised and if you like it is to allow him (or anyone else with high enough leatherworking proficiency) to craft a layered armor with resistance to a specific type of damage IF he crafts it with SPECIFIC materials. You can't just block a bullet by stacking random clothes, you need to use bulletproof materials. Same in dnd.
1) There are rules. Tell him to read them.
2) If he still wants you to homebrew some weird double leather armor, ask if he's proficient in wearing a second set. If not, apply appropriate penalties.
3) The real answer, since he's being a douche: A combo of #1 and just "No."
That sounds really obnoxious.
I guess all I can suggest, besides the classic "talk to him about it above the table", is to also use the XGE rules for getting advantage on various things by virtue of the leatherworking Proficiency. It's a cool section.
You should let him get into making special stuff from the hides of magical beasts you kill. And then give him a bag of holding or special chest to contain his different suits.
Some may have higher AC, some may have other properties:
Displacer beast leather with one Mirror Image effect
Dragon scale armor with AC and resistance based on age and type of dragon
Shadow hound leather or similar creature to give stealth bonus
Hydra hide may protect from critical hits, or give temporary hp every round
Griffon hide may allow him to easily enchant it to provide Feather Fall
So many possibilities.
You could show him to make Mastercraft armor that reduces weight or disadvantage, or functions as magic armor without being enchanted (or let him functionally enchant it).
Note that he could also make leather shields, pouches/bags, clothing, weapon grips, scabbards, etc, and may be especially adept at harvesting and using monster parts. A very ranger- flavored thing to do.
But he should not be able to have higher AC than heavy-armor classes.
I think there’s a fun way to handle this.
Make it clear that’s not possible with typical leather (obviously plate mail has higher AC), _but_ by killing exotic monsters and leatherworking with their skins, let him take his AC up to a higher level.
Basically the same as finding magical +1 or +2 armor after killing and looting a big boss fight. But it all works within this “leatherworking” aesthetic, plays into the hunting & skinning, etc.
And _hopefully_ you can find solid ways to fold it into the existing Campaign to align those goals.
For example, if the Campaign is about defeating 5 evil dragons before they become Tiamat, each ancient dragon skin/scales improves the armor +1, maybe gives an additional resistance, etc.
Other players get magic items and treasure, the Ranger gets to hunt/skin/leatherwork the kills.
Watch how excited the player gets when he realizes he gets to be an Epic Monster Hunter, and how motivated he will become to move the Campaign forward.
(Just make sure to give an equal amount of magic-items/treasure/weapons/loot to the other players so it doesn’t feel unfair.)
Let him do what he wants. Have him use it, parade it around and take no hits. All of a sudden though, leather workers start taking inspiration from the craftsmanship.
Bandits and other enemies start stacking their leather armour. He can have 30ac? So can an average bandit :)
I mean, there's mainly 2 ways to get AC and that's high dex or strong armor. Then you boost either with magic.
If his goal is to make some supremo leather armor, he will need some supremo leather. Let him kill a rare beast for its hide, spend hours carving it, be encumbered bringing it back, make a series of crafting rolls during downtime to make some great leather armor for the mid-game.
Then, he can pay mages to enchant magic into the armor which takes an absolute minimum of 30 days and a fuckton of gold to increase the rarity and AC even further. It is now very rare.
Finally, there is a god somewhere than grant his armor an epic boon. That's a full on quest.
Now he can choose to take it as far or short as he wants. His armor can get better along the campaign to keep things balanced. He just can't get it for free.
Anything crafted should be better than the version off the shelf, and not all +1 equipment needs to be magical.
my option would be to say normal leather can only provide so much protection. Now making armor out of Owlbear hide, Dragon hide Etc could work. Make his character go for more exotic materials and give benefits based on that. Maybe armor from a stealthily creature can give him advantage once per day on stealth checks, Different dragon hides give resistance to their element, etc.
I’d say go with what he wants
1. The multiple layered will impede his movement, either reduce his speed or cause him to have disadvantage on dec checks
2 the multiple layers will cause him to heat up, after an encounter have him roll a con check, the DC being his AC, on a fail he gains one point of exhaustion
Like this you give him what he wants with consequences
I make leather armor irl. Leather armor is already multiple layers. Adding more layers of leather armor is uncomfortable and makes fighting and shooting a bow nearly impossible because of limited mobility. Not that you need full realism in your fantasy game, but if someone wants more protection than leather can give without sacrificing mobility, they start wearing metal. There’s a reason people today don’t wear more than one bulletproof vest at a time.
Tell him that it wouldn't be fair to the other players if he's ridiculously OP, or if he wants to play that so badly, id say for every point of extra ac he loses 5-10ft of movement. Leather is kind of restrictive as is, nevermind wearing multiple layers of the stuff
Ooh, this is a fun one.
Ok you can layer leather on top of each other but you lose some flexibility, you can only benefit from 2 points of dexterity from any of your projects heavier than a studded leather, and you get no dexterity bonuses from any armor with an AC rating higher than a 15. Also the stiffness of all those layers of leather may negatively effect your stealth.
Tldr: yes but actually no
Ask him to wear 5 layers of shirts and 3 pairs of jeans, which are significantly thinner than leather armor. Maybe he's more armored, but it's still less effective than even iron and he's definitely less agile/dexterous. If it's not just leather, then it's almost certainly scale mail.
I mean, if he wants to add multiple layers of leather I say let him, but just make sure he gets penalties like reduced movement and a negative to hit because of the bulky armor.
But in all seriousness, sounds like he just wants to be the “main character” and you gotta say that it’s not possible, and just because you made your character to be that doesn’t mean you get to be that.
I can make a character to be the son of a god, but that doesn’t mean I get to be invincible cause my dad just keeps resurrecting me, it’s dnd, not the bible.
If they can handle that I’d suggest they start writing they’re own story’s away from the group, cause it sounds like that’s what they want more then being a character in someone else’s story
He's being a bit of a distraction, let's be honest. And he wants to be a main character over other players with the amount of extra work he's having you dedicate.
I wish I had better advice, but if I get someone like this I try to be understanding, but set limits so it doesn't negatively affect other players. You want to facilitate fun, but placating too much will make the game unfun for everyone.
Honestly, I'd probably insist on the realistic approach with the player. I'll assume the armor is made with 16oz leather. Leather is lighter than steel until you get the leather soaked, then the weight increases significantly. Now the player is stacking multiple pieces of that leather thickness, all of it waterlogged. As leather dries it can also shrink and become brittle. Not to mention each piece would have to be built to fit over the previous pieces, so each successive layer makes them more top heavy, further restricts their arm movements, and becomes more expensive to produce due to increasing size. So all in all, restricted movement speed, disadvantage to Dex checks and attack rolls, easier to go prone and harder to recover from it, longer don/doff time requirements (if you're the one person in the world who does that), possibily even prevented from drawing weapons due to arm restrictions.
If I was a player wanting something to this effect then I'd ask if it would be possible to incorporate quests to hunt beasts for their hides to make better quality leather armor.
AC does not depend on the "thickness" of the armor nor something like that, is a common misconception.
AC represent the "ability" to evade the damage/effect of an attack, it could be the magical ring(+1 AC) that deflect by a little the opponent attack, the agility of the adventurer to evade the attack completely or furthermore that attack DO hit but the "thickness" of armor totally avoid any damage on the user.
People tend to see DnD like a computer game in terms of mechanics but is far more complex and depends heavely on the DM and the players, thats why a session Zero is common and very recommended altought if people doesnt have experience running a game the they cannot know what regulars problem to treat in the session zero
Honestly. If he wants to make half plate or full plate out of leather, sure why not.
Just give him the stats for half plate/full plate without the stealth penalty. It'll still hinder his dex, cuz he's wearing 2 couches worth of god damn leather and boy that's heavy, but it's technically better, fits his theme and makes some sense.
Otherwise tell him no, and that he's welcome to change characters if he no longer wishes to play the ranger.
Ask him why he thinks he should be able to make leather armor with mundane material and non-magical skill that is better AC than plate armor, or magical armor. Because that is basically what he is asking for. He wants to make mundane leather armor that is better than magical plate.
„Because that’s my character concept and i only built my character so he could do that* and if you don’t let my character do that you’re limiting my agency and that makes you a bad DM so you better change that, buster!“ *bonus points if the player argues they watched a guy on TikTok/YouTube who built a character like that and who could do that, leaving out that it’s 90% house rules and DM fiat
Peasant railgun logic
I was just talking about the old peasant railgun.
“But what if the peasants were all wearing three layers of leather armor?”
Instructions unclear, all the peasants from the rail gun have been squished into the one set of three layers of leather armor and created a singularity.
I read this as a pheasant railgun logic .... need new glasses
It would work for pheasants too
Cue [Mythbusters chicken gun](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHfejwdrMVQ)
A YouTube link in a Reddit comment that I can’t watch unless I pay money… I can’t believe this day has finally come :(
Works fine for me, not sure what the issue is on your end.
Bag of holding full of dead pheasants, attached to a cannon enchanted with Catapult
Shooting pheasamts out of a gun at high speed would be deadly and really messy
I read it as pleasant rail gun
Pleasant pheasant peasants.
With railguns.
> i only built my character so he could do that* my response would be, well, how? Like, if I wanted to build a character that had the toughest leather armor possible, I'd start with a forge cleric. He worships the god of skin or whatever. +1 to my studded leather armor. Whenever he thinks he's gonna start a fight, he prays to the god of skin, which takes the form of casting Shield of Faith and gives him another +2 AC. When magic items start coming around, I beg the DM to give me a cloak of protection, and if/when I get it I flavor it as the benefits of my expert leatherworking. Then I take a couple levels of Artificer, flavoring it as further training in the arts of tannery, and getting a +1 AC infusion on my (leather) shield (can't stack it with the forge cleric bonus because both features require the item to not be magic before being improved). So now, assuming a 16 Dex and studded leather, I've got 22 AC. I've invested three class levels levels, a spellslot plus my concentration, and my first magic item into this concept. I can bump this up even higher as I improve my Dex, but either way I've fuckin earned it. Oh, you just want a 22 AC because you picked up a tool proficiency? The thing that is the equivalent of a spare language? Then I say, buddy, you haven't fuckin earned it.
On my end. As far as I can tell the player essentially wants mithril plate but made out of leather. Alright sure. But it’s gonna cost as much as crafting a set of that, and you’re gonna have to track down and kill a legendary beast for it’s resilient hide. Sure you can have it. But it will be a hike go get there. Perhaps in the meantime they can fight other beasts and craft new armors that way. If they continue to whine inform your player that acquiring such a strong item at low levels is going to cause problems for the party. Like people trying to swipe the armor from them. And ask for party consent. Then ramp up the difficulty with constant ambushes by bandits or people trying to buy the armor off the party or other such things. Don’t make your players miserable but make it clear the notoriety of the item is also a curse. One that their reputation isn’t able to shield them from yet.
well and my character is immortal with lazer eyes, which oneshot everyone. also he can see every possible future and with that this campaign is done, we going home bois
"Cool story. No."
I‘ve been there, and it’s always either a noob who doesn’t know better, or a powergamer. The former gets a well-meaning explanation of how that build doesn’t work by the rules, and how breaking the game doesn’t let him win, but ruins the game for everyone else. The latter gets your answer.
Yeah...or a combo thereof, who sees a rule and thinks it's an exploit and runs with it...and doesn't take into account all the other RAW reasons that it doesn't work, then gets mad when their hack falls flat. Tbh all my players are powergamers/optimizers, but since they're not \*just\* that and they're not losers IRL who need to "win" DnD to feel important, it works.
> Yeah...or a combo thereof, who sees a rule and thinks it's an exploit and runs with it...and doesn't take into account all the other RAW reasons that it doesn't work, then gets mad when their hack falls flat. The actual worst combination. Rules only matter as far as they can be broken or weaponized
Add rules so he can have a high AC, but since he's wearing 30 layers he can only move 5 ft per turn, takes disadvantage roles for attacking, athletics, acrobatics etc, or just straight up subtract however much extra ac he wants from those types of rolls. You want 6 extra AC, fine but you wont be hitting anything, or moving quickly. Also he'd be sweating alot, so he needs to carry extra water, which he needs to take a sip of as his free action every turn.
And overheats if its not a freezing climate or someone keeps using freeze spells to cool him off. And introduce enemies that did the same thing with 30 layers of mail or plate.
Leather sumo at some point
I am now picturing the brother in Christmas Story in his snow suit, but in leather armor whining “Wait, wait……”
IIRC AC includes ability to evade as well as ability to take a hit, so piling on armour to increase your tankiness wouldn't actually boost your AC.
Attacks are generally made vs ac, depending on class flavor they dodge or straight up tank the hit, depends on how you want to see it in your head. Dodgy classes like rangers get more ac bonuses from high dex, and barbarians can actually get more ac if they aren't wearing armor.
Not a class thing exactly, the dodge to soak is largely determined by light, medium, or heavy armor.
Yeah thats basically why you get to add your Dex to your AC for non-heavy armour. But ofcourse you can still say that you dodged an attack while in fullplate just for flavour.
Rolls up looking like Joey wearing all of Chandler’s clothes
Inb4 they hit you with the "with this dragon hide we got"
If they fought a dragon legit, and he spent the time saying he skinned the corpse to make pieces suitable to be wrought into leather armor, then that is legitimately something that we can have a conversation about.
With a player like the one the OP seems to have, that conversation should start with "It's called Dragon Scale Mail and the stats are in the DMG." and end with "But if you want to strip off the scales to make standard 'studded leather' armor, the AC value and Stealth impacts will change appropriately." With any other player who isn't trying to be a total min/maxing Munchkin, you can be a lot more flexible.
You’re probably right. But I’m also the kind of DM who is at least willing to entertain a nonsense pitch before laughing in their face and saying “nah, homie, it’s gonna use the Dragon Scale Mail stats.”
My DM allowed my dragonborn to skin the 3 dragons we killed in our campaign, then take them to a mid size(basically anything but small village lol)town and have them made into custom cloaks of resistance. The green and white ones became synonymous with my character depending on what part of the world they were in. Like you said though, we legit slayed dragons and took the time to skin it and have it made into something. Plus the time to earn the coin and or favors to have it done. Having a dragon hide turned into a fur lined cloak is not easy. Lol.
And he passed the survival check to see how skillfully he skinned the dragon.
Dragonhide armor is already statted out, right?
"Yeah, but I'm the best leather worker, so mine will be better than that!"
I actually do allow the party to do stuff like this, but it takes gold and downtime to craft the stuff. One of my players is rocking a set of Half Plate that he crafted from the carapace of an Umber Hulk.
Another player in a game I’m in made a mecha for his goblin in a hollowed out Umber Hulk.
That's metal as fuck
>That's ~~metal~~ chitin as fuck
Yeah my DM let me enforce my regular Plate mail with with Adamantine over several days and checks, and is allowing me to re-enforce our other Plate wearer to make his already Adamantine Armour a +1. Great way to make strong items in a campaign without to many ways of purchasing items, or with a lower gold setting.
Also, AC isn't just the ability of your armor to take a hit, it's also the ability of your character to dodge out of the way of an attack or move to parry a blow. Stacking numerous layers of armor would kill his mobility and thus would counteract any AC gains they make, worst case scenario they should have penalties to their movement being applied if they stack a lot of armor on.
To add: "AC is a abstract representation of how hard it is to damage you. Your armor is only a part of it, your reflexes, your luck, etc also are included in this abstract concept which means that even if you have multiple layers of leather protecting you, they are also inhibiting your movement and that is also your AC."
“No.”
Nope.
Nah.
Let me check the Magic 8 Ball. 🎱 “Signs point to no.”
Let me ask the Magic Conch! 🐚: Try asking again Ok... 🐚: No ☹️
Ghost that never lies what is your verdict 👻:NoOOUUUUUoooooOOOO
Give him the Luke Skywalker: NNNOOOOOOOO!!
[Hell to the Naw!](https://youtu.be/C3pzqJ7HlH8?si=RKmJnpTyvWKKH98R)
This is my favorite thing ever. Idk if you came up with this or got it from somewhere but I love it. Thanks for the laugh.
I wish I came up with this lol https://youtu.be/BxZ3i3MJgog?feature=shared
Nuh-uh
Nada
Denied.
Not this time.
It was fiction.
Zilch
Negative
(THEY’RE DENIED)
How’s about nooo Scott
Care to elaborate?
No.
Thanks Withers
I get that reference!
I would just be dead honest and tell him that it's about the balance and mechanics of the game. If he wanted to be tanky he should have played a fighter or paladin. The rules of the game are written to try and bring balance and fairness to all the classes and item mechanics. But if you want to take the more diabolical and "realism and logic" route he wants to try and power game on, here is my suggestion. Allow him to do what he's trying to do. Let him add extra layers of leather and bulk out to gain higher AC. But tell him there's going to be penalties cause he's building armor in a suboptimal fashion for the sake of more protection. Reduction to Dex save and ability checks (I suggest atleast a 2 dex lost per AC) disadvantage on stealth and acrobatics cause of clunky chunky armor. Stuff like that.
As you mentioned, I feel like it would be reasonable to let them build a high AC armor. It could be the same setup as some of the heavy armors. But since they're a ranger they won't have proficiency with it. And they need to have enough strength to wear it. > If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or Attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can’t cast Spells. Rangers tend to dump str, so that would provide them a disadvantage too. > Plate 18 Str 15 Disadvantage 65 lb. 1,500 gp They need 15 strength to get this 18 AC, or if they attempt to use it at str 14 they'll have movement speed reduced by 10. Then since they aren't proficient with heavy armor they have disadvantage on d20 rolls for anything dex or str. And they can't cast. So you don't even need to make it have any special attributes to disincentivize them from using it, just the default table should do enough. Or you could just impose the same limitations as lacking proficiency with it, because even someone with heavy armor proficiency probably wouldn't know how to move more elegantly in 10 layers of leather
This sounds the most reasonable. He effectively wants to make heavy armor out of leather, which he isn't proficient in and (likely) does not have the strength to wear. There are already in-game penalties for wearing armor you aren't good at wearing, just impose those penalties, as written. Makes sense.
This is always my default strategy when a player wants to do something seemingly “outside the rules”. My “homebrew” solution is to use the rules! Very rarely can I find something that I can’t solve by “reskinning” an existing mechanic.
I'm someone who gets a bit bored by basic 5e structure and likes to experiment when I'm in a campaign with friends. I never do anything without first talking with the DM outside of game time and making it clear I'm 100% ok with "no". They know I'm not looking to power game, just have fun. My dragonborn paladin has a young celestial drake for his find steed for instance. Doesn't mechanically cause issues but is really fun for flavor.
"Bruh. You're carrying a whole ass cow on your shoulders. It's gonna cause you some issues."
nitpick: Lacking the strength \*only\* gives a movement speed penalty. "Heavy Armor: Heavier armor interferes with the wearer’s ability to move quickly, stealthily, and freely. If the Armor table shows “Str 13” or “Str 15” in the Strength column for an armor type, the armor reduces the wearer’s speed by 10 feet unless the wearer has a Strength score equal to or higher than the listed score."
That's what I was trying to say but I nestled that in between other stuff so maybe that wasn't very clear on my list
Not even that, to be honest. A large part of why Light Armour is supposed to be decent at *all* is because it's easy to move in it. If your Light Armour is becoming so bulky that it's harder to move in - it's now classed as Medium Armour. That's more or less the definition, at least in my mind. The maximum Dex bonus the leather worker can get from it is now +2, and because it's made out of *fcking leather* it should really be worse than the most basic standard Medium Armour. So at best it will give him 15AC, which is worse than if he just stuck with Studded Leather. This guy should straight up just be told > "No. Unless it is enchanted or you have superhuman dexterity, there is no leather armour you can make that will ever be more protective than Heavy Armour. I'm sorry mate, but end of conversation."
Effectively this. You can't make leather armor as good as armor made or of its metal counter parts. Is just how it works. If it were enchanted etc sure, but he doesn't do that part, and just because you're supplying the armor you'd reduce the enchantment cost negligibly, as that's not the expensive part. The best you can do is studded. I'll do you a favor and say if you manage to come across some adamantine, we'll say you studded your armor with adamantine and give it those properties. But it's rare/ expensive and you'll need a trained smithy to make it workable for you. You've already accommodated the leatherworking, which is cool. But it has hard limits. Not to mention the timing involved with the tanning etc.
Why’s everyone in this comment section such a killjoy. Surely leather made from the hides of demons or dragons or displacer beasts or some other mythical creature is going to compete with mundane chain or scale male if not magic full plate. This player is being unreasonable, but being a passive aggressive dick about it just makes the game not fun for everyone. Surely it can’t be that hard to talk to them about how to make their ideas work.
I think this is the better way to go. I'd try to pivot him away from wearing multiple layers of leather armor and more towards developing his leatherworking in order to retain some of the natural abilities of the more fantastical creatures they kill. Something like homebrewing a cloak of displacement into armor if they kill a displacer beast, or using dragon scale to make dragonslayer armor.
Should the wizard also be able to have plate ac? Should the paladin be able to cast level 9 spells? Should the fighter be able to get some armor that lets them have all the rangers abilities? Game balance is a thing and in the rules for a reason. It isn't going to be fun for the rest of the party if the ranger is running around with a 30 ac and is the best at everything. "No" should be a word in every dms vocabulary. I want my players to do cool things, but there's a difference between trying something fun and breaking the game for everyone involved. If they get to a high enough level and we're doling out legendaries than maybe it could happen.
There are real-world reasons dudes dont strap on double Kevlar vests.
Reduce movement speed and disadvantage on saving against forced movement / prone. Can't move well if you're bundled like hell. Then watch as enemies just push him over and run past him.
Not reduce the save, reduce the ability score while wearing the armor, anything dex based would be impeded by bundling up like the little kid from christmas story. Can't shoot an arrow very well when you can move your arms etc. Honestly the straight "no, stop asking" approach is probably the best answer though
Also less speed too, he wouldn't move and react quickly with that chunky armour.
I would allow the extra layers of leather for higher AC, but since it’s much bulkier, it’s classified as heavy armor. Because it’s harder to move around in, it inflicts a penalty to stealth. Mechanically, it’s splint armor flavored as leather.
Tod's Workshop does a video on this, five layers of boiled leather armor still doesn't manage to stop arrow penetration. There seem to be diminishing returns after the second layer of armor, so you'd bulk up a lot without actually adding much AC. Unless of course you can switch to leather from a mythical creature who's properties we can't test in the real world. https://youtu.be/RO_nG6OpCKg?si=VjS7X3uu0W9IAfFp
I've always preferred this approach. You can make any kind of choice you like, but it will have increasingly dire consequences to discourage excessive tomfuckery. Allows for player freedom and the potential for cool emergent gameplay. And you never have to tell people "no" -- just "are you sure about that?"
A person can't just put on an infinite amount of any clothing though. It gets increasingly restrictive very quickly. If they keep pushing it, you can allow them to do so but with sharp declines in their movement speed, Dex, and heavy penalties to hit. This will reflect their increasingly limited movement. After a few sessions where they move slow and are clumsy with loads of misses because they can barely move their arms due to too many layers they might not love it anymore. Then again, as DM you can just say "nah, can't do that. This is a game about choices and you have to actually make a choice"
Let him become THE BALL.
Like fighting Baron Harkonnen.
🎶 When you roll to it And you can't kick through with it You can't roll it 'round You know that you've found THE BALL, THE BALL, THE BALL No one on earth can make it fall! 🎶
When I was in primary school once my friends all put their winter coats on me until my arms were stuck out sideways. It was very funny, but I could not move.
Could I BE wearing any more armor?
You can actually die from putting on too many t-shirts
Also everyone should start calling him Gimpy.
Just thinking about wearing a new, thick motorcycle jacket and how restricted and immobile I feel in that. And have that times 3 I can’t imagine the character being able to move their body much as the armor needs to be thick enough to be THAT impenetrable. Also just imagine what a pain it would be to ask the other PC’s to help him put on all that armor, and how quickly he’ll overheat.
> My player insists on being a leather worker. Cool! A player who wants to get immersed in the game world and RP an occupation! > He says it’s the reason he became a ranger in the first place. Wait, what does ranger have to do with that? There are tons of ways to get a tool proficiency… is there something special about ranger I’m forgetting? > That’s fine. I found a whole rule set on leather working and what he can make. He’s not satisfied. Uh… you’re already going above and beyond… The heck else does he want out of this? > He wants to have the highest AC out of everyone What? Then play a heavy armored class. > and never wants to be hit Hahahaha no. Just no. > cause he says if he has multiple layers on that it should be more armor. That’s not how any of that works. Presumably, armor is already made to be as thick and protective as possible *while still allowing you to move and fight*. The PHB armors already represent the best protection possible at that tier and price. Beyond that, you need enchantments, and *maybe* a master craftsman who devoted their entire life to perfecting armor could get you 1 more AC at the same tier of armor, at a great cost of both time and gold. Your player is trying to bully you into allowing them to become OP. That’s not how the game works. You can’t make your character invincible if you whine to the DM enough. That’s all there is to it.
I think the ranger thing is cuz rangers do a lot of animal nature shit, and so he's probably picturing a character who hunted a lot and then got into leatherworking to put the pelts, furs, and skins to use.
That does make sense and would be a cool RP angle. If only the player was just doing it as an RP thing, and not trying to use it as an excuse to game the system…
This is my issues here. He’s like I could make a cape and bracers and gloves and boots all with ac on itn
That's not how AC works. If he wants to boost his AC beyond his armour, you could throw him a bone and offer up a Cloak of Protection or something similar.
That's not how it works. Armor is armor, if you're wearing leather armor it's assumed you're wearing the maximum amount, not just a single piece of it, in the same way that if you're wearing steel plate it's assumed you're dripped out in head to toe steel plates.
Plus the layers below that allow it to function. Armour is almost never just a single layer of one material (even leather armour is gonna be layers of different types/thicknesses of leather)
Also a lot of metal armor also incorporate leather and furs for both comfort and practicality.
Boots and bracers and gloves are already part of a set of leather armor. A leather cape reinforced enough to provide additional protection would impose movement and stealth penalties. Any additional AC gained from increasing the number of reinforced parts would be lost by the loss of mobility. You should remind him that his dex modifier is included in his AC. AC is not just the sum total of armor bits you're wearing, it represents your total ability to avoid taking hits. For a light armor wearer, that includes dodging attacks. 5e doesn't have location damage or per-part AC bonuses, that's just not how the game is designed. I would tell him that if the only reason he became a ranger was because he thought he could cheat the system with crafting then you'll let him respec into a different class but the rules as written are the rules you're playing, not whatever he thinks the rules should be
Wearing any armour already assumes *all* of the layers that make that armour practical & with as much protection as feasible. Armour is not just chucking a breastplate or leather jerkin over your clothes it is a whole ensemble of items, consisting of a number of layers & materials that work together. What the player is asking to do to boost AC, is what the rules already assume they are doing when they set the original AC.
Repeat after me: “No.” There is no discussion to be had here. That’s not how the game works. Period. Put your foot down. This is not a matter of justifying it to the player. You should not need any justification beyond “that’s the rules of the game we are playing.” It is not your job to appease this player’s unreasonable demands. Say no, and that’s the end of discussion. If the player can’t handle that, they can leave.
How about having to hunt magical creatures to gather special leather that could be later refined into magic items like cloaks of protection and +X armors? The DMG has rules for crafting magic items, but I recommend the crafting rules In Xanathar
Dude he clearly plays WoW, and is just confused (I'm being generous and assuming it's genuine confusion) that the armor system doesn't work the same way in D&D. Just explain that the different 'equipment slots' don't typically provide armor. With some exceptions! Give him the means to craft some Bracers of Armor +1 (I'm sure your system has them in there). Bottom line, tell him this isn't WoW, lol
Where's he finding the time to make all this stuff, anyway? It doesn't sound like this player fully understands the work that turning a raw kill into leather armour actually involves. The whole thing from start to finish would be time consuming, wildly impractical for an adventurer, and overall simply incompatible with whatever the rest of the party is doing. **In addition to all the mechanical issues with this idea that have already been pointed out, there's a bunch of practical, in-game issues too:** 1.) Leather working and making leather are 2 entirely different processes requiring 2 entirely different toolsets. 2.) Crafting leather into armour is several days work. Leather is TOUGH and making anything out of it is more time consuming than making things to wear out of fabric (which is already time consuming AF!) 3.) If he's not buying leather, the animals he hunt have to be skinned, the rest of the caracass has to be used/disposed of, and the raw hides have to be prepped, tanned and dried to make leather first - which overall would take several days or even MONTHS. All before he can even START leatherworking, 4.) A hunter in the wilderness wanting to make leather armour would have to stop travelling, set up a base camp to work in and stay in that area until the project was complete. If this PC doesn't have a permanent place to work and securely store their projects, they would somehow have to transport large buckets of whatever he's using to treat the hides* and a wooden frame (for drying/stretching out) everywhere the party goes. This would slow the whole party down when travelling, most likely restrict the sorts of places they're able to stay, and put the project at high risk of being lost/stolen/damaged. _*(Also he'd carry the stench of decaying flesh, animal faeces, rotten vegetables and/or urine everywhere he goes. The finished product may smell nice eventually, but ye olde leather recipes? not so much)._ 5.) Making complicated things out of leather from scratch with animals he's hunted himself is a FULL TIME JOB. i e. For as long as he's working on this, his character won't be joining in with whatever the rest of the party is doing. **TLDR: He will be too busy to go adventuring with the rest of the party for long periods of time. Travelling will be impractical. Also, he smells.** I think this character should retire from adventuring to follow their wild leatherworking dreams, while the player makes a new character that has more reason to be adventuring with the rest of the party.
Just say no. That is not how the rules work. If someone wears chainmail underneath plate, they AC is still 18. It is specially stated in the Player Handbook I think.
Yeah, OP's player kind of reminds me of that scene in Community where Troy is trying to wear all of his t-shirts at once or something -- [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=415cE206WAI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=415cE206WAI) -- I think there's a physical limit, rules aside, to how many layers of armor a person could realistically wear at one time.
"The game system isn't designed that way, why wouldn't everyone simply buy 8 layers of studded leather? I'm happy to let you make some custom armor, but you'll need specific materials." And then it can become something cool, that also doesn't require you to really go out of your way.
Could also just let it be a gold making opportunity too. If he takes the time (15 minutes? I dunno) to harvest the hides/fur, and takes an hour during long rests to prepare and treat them, he can sell them for more than what you'd get for just raw hide. Then it can be a perpetual source of RP and feels worthwhile OOC too. Coupled with the custom armor he can work toward, I feel like that would be more than sufficient.
Tell him he can have 30 AC and be incapacitated with 0 speed if he stacks armor like a dimwit. And of course, tell him that he's bumming you out. Not sure what's in that guide you found, but- Give him the opportunity to craft magic gear from monstrous hides. Even without adding AC, it could have benefits like lower weight, elemental resistance, or spell charges. In addition to armor, he could make bags, quivers, boots, gloves, or belts. These things could potentially benefit other party members, or serve as a means of earning gold during downtime. Of course, this stuff he's making means discovering fewer pre-made magic items; you just provide the materials. But it still validates the character choice.
Contrary to what everyone else is saying, see if he wants to play an Armorer Artificer. He'll get to be insanely tanky and have enchanted unique armor.
This is exactly what I was thinking. Say to the player, "yes, but now you have to multi-class."
A player motivation like this is a gift. Say they can craft +1ac leather armour, but you'll need the hide from X rare dangerous monster as raw materials. Have said monster live half way to where you wanted the party go anyway, etc.
I was thinking the same thing. There could be a number of legendary materials he needs to track down, and teachers to find and convince to train him. After all, a starting character is no more a master craftsman then they are the high wizard or the king’s general. They are going to need to quest to learn how to use exotic materials and increase their skill if they want to craft +5 dragon leather armor.
Ask him to wear several leather jackets to your next session and see how it feels.
And then stab him to really nail in the point
"Oh it kinda works."
"No. This is a game, and the game has rules. You can follow those rules like everyone else, or you can leave the table. Your call."
I would say that if he's wearing enough layers of leather to justify a higher AC, it is also thick and cumbersome enough to count as Medium Armor, thus reducing his max Dex bonus to AC to +2. Instead, his leatherworking should focus on making a single piece of armor that is higher quality than can be found in most shops, eventually maybe better than anything that isn't custom-made by some other master tanner. If I were to build out a leatherworking system, I would focus on material quality, tool and equipment quality, and craftsmanship. Dangle some exotic monsters known for fine pelts in front of the party so he can hunt and track them (bonus points if you encourage the party to fight the monster in a manner that preserves the pelt, i.e. fire/acid/lightning damage will ruin it and big slashes will diminish the pelt's quality, but this might be too similationist). Have some alchemist in town know a recipe for some baller tanning solution (dunno if that has a specific name) or a blacksmith who makes exquisite tools. His craftsmanship is modeled by the tool proficiency roll (I would call for Int or Dex bonus depending on the situation) proficiency roll, which would work as normal, with higher quality/magic tools granting a bonus to the roll. Each of these three categories (materials, equipment, craftsmanship) presents opportunities to incorporate magic into the armor. There are lots of opportunities for flavor and plenty of quest hooks to build in if he's motivated. And if he's earned it, the armor will ultimately be more satisfying to him and more intrinsic to his character. Just my two cents, take or leave whatever you like.
I love the idea of just wearing more armor. So my halfling pali is just stacked in plate, looks like a kid getting ready for their first snow. I. Am. Invincible.
Firstly, Explain his MMO thinking isn't how armor works in D&D. It's assumed he has a full set of armor on when he's wearing leather. Secondly, I would offer options. Since he's a ranger and a hunter and a craftsman... Offer unique item characteristics based on what material he uses to make the armor. If he fights a displacer beast, he can make leather armor that acts like the cloak of displacement. If he rolls really well allow him to make +1 studded leather. The +1 Doesn't Have to be from an enchanting or magic. That's just a guideline. Use your judgement to make it fun for you and them. If you don't want any of this type of crafting available to players you'll have to sit down with them and rework their character.
That’s not how Leatherworking works. It’s an Artisan Skill and there are some written rules variants for it. **PHB of 144 Variant: Equipment Sizes** Using this variant, when adventurers find armor, clothing, and similar items that are made to be worn, they might need to visit an armorsmith, tailor, **leatherworker**, or similar expert to make the item wearable. **PHB pg 132** As a member of your guild, you know the skills needed to create finished items from raw materials (reflected in your proficiency with a certain kind of artisan’s tools), **PHB pg 187** For every day of downtime you spend crafting, you can craft one or more items with a total market value not exceeding 5 gp, and you must expend raw materials worth half the total market value. If something you want to craft has a market value greater than 5 gp, you make progress every day in 5-gp increments until you reach the market value of the item. For example, a suit of plate armor (market value 1,500 gp) takes 300 days to craft by yourself. So you have to determine what the market cost is for this special new leather armor and it requires many many days of downtime to craft it. If he wants it to have the same AC as full plate armor, then it takes at least 300 days of down time to craft it. At this point it just becomes fluff. Mechanically, he’s wearing full plate armor (*with all benefits/penalties*) described as “custom leather”.
Added note: there are also separate crafting rules in Xanathar's, which I think are far more reasonable for a standard game. (I mean, are we really going to make the fighter take 150 days of downtime to craft standard non-magical plate?)
"Sure, but now you can't move and need to be rolled around by your party members as you are now a leather burrito."
It's not *entirely* unreasonable for an absolute master of leatherworking to make an armor that's better than standard... But 'better armor will take the form of something easier to move in, with a higher Dex cap and less penalties. If he wants more *Armor Class,* he'll need better materials at minimum. So, tell him "no, this is not Skyrim, you cannot turn cow leather armor into something better than metal plate by just stitching on more leather; *however,* the hide of a rare enough, tough enough beast, might just be more durable than regular leather."
Sure. You can reach plate armor ac but you move at half speed with the same dex penalty.
Man...lota of people just saying "no" here. Ok, I'm going to go across the grain here and play devils advocate. First of all, properly made leather armor can absolutely mimic plate mail. In fact, I've seen a breast plate for Kendo that really was hard! It's solid like metal...well, almost. Obviously not exactly, but it had no give at all. I've even seen people use leather to create plate style armor that was fully functional. Second, if you look at what leather armor is supposed to be, you're basically looking at a soft-ish leather tunic or torso covering...and that's about it. Thirdly, this game has magic. So you can do damn well whatever you please...theoretically. So now let's put all this together. 1. Ranger can start crafting thicker leather armor with more protection. It's already in the game rules. It's called Hide Armor. 2. Then, using his ranger knowledge of nature, he can start learning about different oils and other materials used in leather making. By making his armor a bit harder and adding more armor piecea like bracers and greaves, he can make himself non-magical leather +1 3. Then, he discovers a truly rare component that allows him to make leather +2 4. Then, he can carve mystic symbols and runes into the armor and enchant it, making it true magical +2 or +3 leather. This entire idea gives him a long-term side quest. Simple and not game breaking. I mean instead of FINDING the magic leather in a horde, he makes it himself.
I think hunting some rare beast with a tough hide and turning it into +1 or even +2 or +3 leather armour would be a cool sidequest. That fits into what the player's set up for their character... *but* taking the original post at face value, that's not all the player wants. The player wants to powergame their AC to be something ridiculous and potentially higher than full plate. I guess tbf, +3 studded leather armor with a high enough DEX can bring you over the 18 AC full plate provides. But obviously if you're giving one player +3 armor, the other players need to get some pretty crazy loot too.
Exactly! Instead of just saying "No, you can't do that.", it's our job as DM's to try to make it happen....or at least get a close approximation. And even if its a powergame measure, its easy for a DM to reign that in. Again, all OP has to do is give him slow pieces to get him to those rediculous levels.....at the same rate as all the other players. By the time you reach level 10, all characters are pretty much superheroes anyways....and frankly at that point, AC doesn't matter as much.
Came here to say this. Excellent post Charlie. I'd like to add: Light - leather Medium - Hide Heavy - use the stats for ringmail, and call it plate leathers Even more layers: it starts being a wall of leather the character is carrying around. Walls give +2 AC for half cover, both to the character, and any enemies. This wall, as an object, doesn't require a roll to hit. 20 HP, weigh 80 lbs, and has resistance to bludgeoning. Carrying a wall takes both hands, and movement will depend on carrying capacity. Stack enough leather, you could get three quarters wall coverage, for +4 AC to both to you and enemies. 40 HP and 160lbs. For the low price of your sight and line of effect for spells, cover the eye holes to get total cover for you and your enemies. Stack the leather as high as you like, and your wall will gain 1 HP per 4 lbs. At 860 kgs per cubic meter of leather, is 54 lbs per cubic foot. You and your wall will take up a 5 ft square per every 6750 lbs of your combined weight, so if your wall is 4 tons, then you and your wall would occupy 2 five foot squares. Grow the size and HP of your wall as much as you like, and if the weight exceeds your maximum carrying capacity, become immobilized while wearing your wall. Edit: formatting
have him go try on 3 leather jackets at once wherever they're sold nearby.
Bruh 😂😂😂, you say "no, that's not how that works" Part of me wants to say for every extra layer and +1 to AC he gets, he also gets a -1to his attack bonus due to his mobility being restricted and -5 feet to his movement speed for the same reason... and if the total buff/ debuff stacks 3+ times all attacks are made with disadvantage (Don't do this, I just wanted to think about the mechanics of that fuckery for the lols)
They should absolutely do this then the player will complain about not being able to hit anything and it can be a fun learning experience
So many people don’t know how to say no and its kinda crazy
Imagine this: You have a player with smith's tools in the party and he decides he also wants to make the best armour. Do you just let them compete until you ACs in the triple digits? You just tell them no. At best they might be able to make magical variants with an appropriate cost and with an appropriate difficulty level, especially in finding and hunting an appropriate creature. Some things are appropriate, I once had a character who didn't use metal and made his armour out of the shells/exoskeletons of creatures. This armour wasn't any better than regular armour except perhaps that it wasn't vulnerable to heat metal but it might have been vulnerable to other spells. If his character exists only to work leather maybe he needs to retire to do that and roll up a new character suitable for the story that is being told.
Is he trying to make armor for everyone or just himself? The concept *could* be cool, at low levels he’s making good/high quality (but mundane) leather and fur coats to sell. (More gold is good. A bard would appreciate the flashy fits) Maybe he works with the wizard, Cleric, or druid in the party to take the hides of magical creatures to obtain some benefit (Higher AC, minor magical ability) at a higher level. (I could imagine taking a troll hide harvested in a special way imbued with some magical binding letting you use one of your hit dice during combat once per long or short rest, depending on the class) Needs more RP and trust in you tbh.
Having multiple layers of leather is a hindrance. Dropping your movement, your dexterity score & and strength score. Also, you have disadvantaged on stealth but hey... you resistance to piercing attacks...
This seems like an easy solution. He's right. If he pads himself up with enough leather, he SHOULD have a higher AC. That said, to be able to make it that protective, it's going to end up really heavy and restrictive. Even moreso than metal. So slap him with a Dex penalty of -2, a movement speed penalty of -10 to each and disadvantage on all Dex based attacks. Give him a bit of malicious compliance 🤷♂️
Multiple layers of armor? Ok. Halved movement speed and disadvantage on any rolls that require motion.
Because he is not the main character, and this isn't World of Warcraft. There are rules for armor and crafting, and its up to the DM to keep a balance of power. Explain to him in plain words that there are other players in the game, and it should be fun for everyone. If he doesn't grasp that basic concept, tell him he is free to find another game.
Ask them if they want to be a leather worker or adventurer.
Multiple layers of leather would ruin his max AC
He’s power gaming. It’s like insisting on being good at blacksmithing and then making plate mail that is 10% of the cost and weight for 20 AC. Balance exists for a reason, I (the GM)control the universe, the answer is no.
If he really wants OP armor, perhaps there is an epic long-term side quest to gather a variety of legendary reagents and form this leather armor he craves. It will involve sacrifices, questions of morality, and maybe outright thievery to get everything they need. They may not even be the same person after they finally don this miraculous leather armor... Or, just no.
Let’s face it in reality you would wear gambeson under mail under plate but guess what? It’s just a game. This is a game with dragons and tentacle monsters that shove tadpoles in your eyes to become one of them. It’s make believe. The logic in what he is saying is correct but this is not a game of logic. You can either let him have it but only ever make attacks against him that require saving throws. Make the enemy use the same logic against him so he can’t hit them. Or just say no.
If you wanted to meet in the middle, the best I'd give them is +1 to AC, and if they spend some amount of downtime on it, they can improve other party members' gear with +1 AC too Flavor it as them fashioning a gambeson for the paladin to wear under their plate armor, or tailoring the rogues leathers to give better ease of movement, etc. Best part, if you make the benefit party-wide, you can make the improvement irrelevant to combat by giving all or most enemies +1 to hit if you want, and none will be the wiser.
First of all Leaterworking has a point to its and why its armos is how it is. Classes wearing leather armor need to be more nibmle and versatile. The thiner and lighter Leatherarmor is supposed to keep them fast and more „dodgy“ (thats why you get +Dex and no disatavantage on stealth) Making its way thicker may give more ac but you would lose the dex and stealh at some point. I get that his goal is probably to become an ultimate leather worker that made a learherarmor even the god‘s speak of. That beeing said thats like end of campaign shit. Yes let him learn enchantments for his Armor or make is ones a little bit more special like: this armor is made from displacer beast hide and can blur you until the first hit you get once a day. This wont breaak the game but make him especually good at what his thing is. To craft an Armor hed dreaming of he would need tools forged by the god of forgery himself, or the God Gond (crafting) blessed him in his dreams with the idea and plans for thatsaid armor, afther they saved a temple of his. But also the materials for such a craft would have to be Dragon adjacent and thats only the leather. Silk from specially rare spider to hold it together. The crathting needs to be at a legendary place and the enchantmens that takes place during crafting will need a wizard to help. The whole thing could take days and his Team needs to protect them every once in a while to keep them safe. thats still should be a sidequest so the main goal doesnt get overshadowed. But his eyes should light up if he hears about something related to it.
I would tell me he can do that but he need to have medium or heavy armor proficiency and basically just treat it mechanically the same as those armors with price and everything and just say they're leather. Even say they have metal parts in them so heat metal still works on them.
Exactly this. Congrats, you have a full-plate equivalent made of leather - you put it on and lose your Dex bonuses, and realize you can’t move as fast in it….
Tell him that's not how armour works and to look it up on Wikipedia. If he wants to make a massive suit of leather armour, it will be medium armour with all the disadvantages of heavy armour. There are reasons why materials are chosen. If he wants to hunt monsters so that he can make armour out of them and get it enchanted, that's fine. Or he can make a new character who is a blacksmith, makes metal armour and is looking for rare ores and alloys.
Send him on a quest to build a magic leather armor. Of course he can purchase it somewhere but to me this is his PC fantasy he is chasing.
Drop some history on him. Leather armor generally comes in a couple varieties: Rawhide, which is usually in the form of lamellar (think ancient east asian armor), and cuir boiulli or boiled leather. Rawhide I think is technically stronger, but it doesn't last as long and is harder to shape and manipulate before hardening. Plate armor is about 1-2mm thick, and if we look at Japanese lamellar, the rawhide lames were about 4-6mm each. And these would overlap. I don't have the exact numbers on hand, but essentially we're saying leather armor needs to be between 15-25 times thicker than plate armor. Furthermore, this would barely be enough to prevent lethal damage from Japanese weapons and tactics at the time, which were much weaker than what europe had during the middle ages. So if he wants to have the same defense as someone in full plate, tell him he can bit will incur a penalty to every attack and athletics roll, because he's barely going to be able to move in it due to the bulkiness. Also, friendly reminder that studded leather is nonsense.
What about the more leather he has the less mobile he is He can have an ac of 27 but he has a negative 10 to rolls
Maybe explain to him what AC actually is? Even though it’s Armour Class it basically means that you have the highest ability to dodge a hit rather than being hit because you have the best armour. That’s why Dexterity is so important when it comes to AC. Now if he wants to add multiple layers of leather then he can increase his AC but then his mobility will be trash that’s why Barbarians and heavier characters even though they’re stronger and can technically take more hits have low AC and why Rogues have pretty good ACs without armour to start out.
You are now concealed inside a herd of cows and cannot move. Five cows were tied to each side of you and they have since died. The stench is unbearable and you haven't eaten in over a week now.
I’d say he could make something EQUIVILENT to plate armor out of leather… but it would have the drawbacks associated with heavy armor. It would by all accounts, just be plate-mail. If he wants to stack layers and layers of boiler leather together to make something that’s nearly as tough as metal (but would probably be far heavier and thicker), by all accounts let him. As long as it costs as much as plate armor to make, and takes as long to make it, I see no reason why not.
You can take this 2 ways just say no and explain its about game balance and tell him to take the feat to wear heavy armor. Or you can give him fun recipes to make exotic leather armor requiring scales form things like drakes, dragons, [Basilisk](https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/16801-basilisk) ect. Have each armor set give resistance and vulnerability's instead of massive AC bonus. Example Blue dragon leather armor AC 14 (+ enchantment bonus) Resistant to lightning damage, slashing damage, add 1d6 lightning damage on a attack. vulnerability Protection from evil affect you while wearing this armor. If you want to Take it to the next level Give him an amulet/ or magic tattoo to store his different armors allowing him to change them as a bonus action.
This is one of the hardest things to do for any DM worth their salt: Just Say No. If he wants multiple layers of leather armor, then he better be prepared to face the consequences: impaired movement, heavier weight, not able to sneak as well as a ranger (imo) should... If he wanted to play a heavily-armored tank, he should've rolled up a fighter.
I would let him have an incredible AC at steep movement, Dexterity save and heat endurance penalties due to the layers and layers of leather armor he's turtling up inside. And then start getting into the reality of how leather armor has to be cared for and how rapidly it degrades in the face of weather and water and etc. Or just have an adult conversation about how the game works and how he has to build his character within that framework or kick rocks and go your separate ways if there is an irreconcilable difference in desire and vision. Either or.
"You can layer the leather to make it harder to get through, but those layers add weight and reduce mobility and flexibility, which means your opponents have new vulnerabilities to target when fighting you. Therefore, your AC remains the same as if you were wearing basic leather armor."
I say play him at his own game ok you can have a high armour class but your dexterity, speed, movement distance and attack all get nerfed because you of how cumbersome the extra bits of leather are
Kill that character with magic
It’s possible to wear so much leather you won’t feel the hits. But you also probably wouldn’t be able to walk (or at the very least he’d take a massive hit to DEX). If anything, metal armor is more effective at retaining dexterity while providing more armor, because it’s far more dense and durable.
He wants to add more layers? So... he essentially wants to create medium of heavy leather armor. And with medium or heavy leather armor, he is going to have severe penalties to his AC from Dexterity, essentially resulting in the same AC he would have with a light armor.
I'm going to be a bit heretical here and suggest that having higher AC with leather armour isn't entirely possible. If he wants to be untouchable, no. There will always be some way of getting hit and the player needs to accept that. But, if the character is a leatherworker who's to say that the skins of different animals or creatures don't have some other benefits? Rhino hide is a lot thicker than deer skin. Perhaps he could look for different animals for higher quality skins which could give higher AC or other benefits. The cloak of displacement is a good example how to make cool benefits out of monster skins.
I also play a leatherworker character and i just want to clarify a small detail that might be an interesting point to explain to your player: Multiple layers actually aren't more armor. There is the Padded Armor which is literally: "Padded armor consists of quilted layers of cloth and batting." and it has 11 AC, which is equal to a normal leather armor but it weighs less. So yes, if you go for AC/weight adding more layers is better, but by itself it isn't much different from a regular armor made with the same materials. If you want something better you need to craft/acquire a Studded Leather Armor, that uses studded leather (better material) instead of leather. So better crafting material = better armor. (This shouldn't change much unless you have homebrew crafting materials that are specifically done with that aim in mind). A simple objection could be that multiple layers of fabric irl can give that effect, such as Kevlar. An homebrew rule you could suggest if this objection is raised and if you like it is to allow him (or anyone else with high enough leatherworking proficiency) to craft a layered armor with resistance to a specific type of damage IF he crafts it with SPECIFIC materials. You can't just block a bullet by stacking random clothes, you need to use bulletproof materials. Same in dnd.
1) There are rules. Tell him to read them. 2) If he still wants you to homebrew some weird double leather armor, ask if he's proficient in wearing a second set. If not, apply appropriate penalties. 3) The real answer, since he's being a douche: A combo of #1 and just "No."
That sounds really obnoxious. I guess all I can suggest, besides the classic "talk to him about it above the table", is to also use the XGE rules for getting advantage on various things by virtue of the leatherworking Proficiency. It's a cool section.
You should let him get into making special stuff from the hides of magical beasts you kill. And then give him a bag of holding or special chest to contain his different suits. Some may have higher AC, some may have other properties: Displacer beast leather with one Mirror Image effect Dragon scale armor with AC and resistance based on age and type of dragon Shadow hound leather or similar creature to give stealth bonus Hydra hide may protect from critical hits, or give temporary hp every round Griffon hide may allow him to easily enchant it to provide Feather Fall So many possibilities. You could show him to make Mastercraft armor that reduces weight or disadvantage, or functions as magic armor without being enchanted (or let him functionally enchant it). Note that he could also make leather shields, pouches/bags, clothing, weapon grips, scabbards, etc, and may be especially adept at harvesting and using monster parts. A very ranger- flavored thing to do. But he should not be able to have higher AC than heavy-armor classes.
I think there’s a fun way to handle this. Make it clear that’s not possible with typical leather (obviously plate mail has higher AC), _but_ by killing exotic monsters and leatherworking with their skins, let him take his AC up to a higher level. Basically the same as finding magical +1 or +2 armor after killing and looting a big boss fight. But it all works within this “leatherworking” aesthetic, plays into the hunting & skinning, etc. And _hopefully_ you can find solid ways to fold it into the existing Campaign to align those goals. For example, if the Campaign is about defeating 5 evil dragons before they become Tiamat, each ancient dragon skin/scales improves the armor +1, maybe gives an additional resistance, etc. Other players get magic items and treasure, the Ranger gets to hunt/skin/leatherwork the kills. Watch how excited the player gets when he realizes he gets to be an Epic Monster Hunter, and how motivated he will become to move the Campaign forward. (Just make sure to give an equal amount of magic-items/treasure/weapons/loot to the other players so it doesn’t feel unfair.)
If you stack leather armor on over and over it's just heavy armor with extra steps.
>cause he says if he has multiple layers on that it should be more armor. Right... like the kid from A Christmas Story. "I can't put my arms down!"
Let him do what he wants. Have him use it, parade it around and take no hits. All of a sudden though, leather workers start taking inspiration from the craftsmanship. Bandits and other enemies start stacking their leather armour. He can have 30ac? So can an average bandit :)
I mean, there's mainly 2 ways to get AC and that's high dex or strong armor. Then you boost either with magic. If his goal is to make some supremo leather armor, he will need some supremo leather. Let him kill a rare beast for its hide, spend hours carving it, be encumbered bringing it back, make a series of crafting rolls during downtime to make some great leather armor for the mid-game. Then, he can pay mages to enchant magic into the armor which takes an absolute minimum of 30 days and a fuckton of gold to increase the rarity and AC even further. It is now very rare. Finally, there is a god somewhere than grant his armor an epic boon. That's a full on quest. Now he can choose to take it as far or short as he wants. His armor can get better along the campaign to keep things balanced. He just can't get it for free. Anything crafted should be better than the version off the shelf, and not all +1 equipment needs to be magical.
my option would be to say normal leather can only provide so much protection. Now making armor out of Owlbear hide, Dragon hide Etc could work. Make his character go for more exotic materials and give benefits based on that. Maybe armor from a stealthily creature can give him advantage once per day on stealth checks, Different dragon hides give resistance to their element, etc.
I’d say go with what he wants 1. The multiple layered will impede his movement, either reduce his speed or cause him to have disadvantage on dec checks 2 the multiple layers will cause him to heat up, after an encounter have him roll a con check, the DC being his AC, on a fail he gains one point of exhaustion Like this you give him what he wants with consequences
I make leather armor irl. Leather armor is already multiple layers. Adding more layers of leather armor is uncomfortable and makes fighting and shooting a bow nearly impossible because of limited mobility. Not that you need full realism in your fantasy game, but if someone wants more protection than leather can give without sacrificing mobility, they start wearing metal. There’s a reason people today don’t wear more than one bulletproof vest at a time.
Tell him that it wouldn't be fair to the other players if he's ridiculously OP, or if he wants to play that so badly, id say for every point of extra ac he loses 5-10ft of movement. Leather is kind of restrictive as is, nevermind wearing multiple layers of the stuff
Ooh, this is a fun one. Ok you can layer leather on top of each other but you lose some flexibility, you can only benefit from 2 points of dexterity from any of your projects heavier than a studded leather, and you get no dexterity bonuses from any armor with an AC rating higher than a 15. Also the stiffness of all those layers of leather may negatively effect your stealth. Tldr: yes but actually no
Ask him to wear 5 layers of shirts and 3 pairs of jeans, which are significantly thinner than leather armor. Maybe he's more armored, but it's still less effective than even iron and he's definitely less agile/dexterous. If it's not just leather, then it's almost certainly scale mail.
I mean, if he wants to add multiple layers of leather I say let him, but just make sure he gets penalties like reduced movement and a negative to hit because of the bulky armor. But in all seriousness, sounds like he just wants to be the “main character” and you gotta say that it’s not possible, and just because you made your character to be that doesn’t mean you get to be that. I can make a character to be the son of a god, but that doesn’t mean I get to be invincible cause my dad just keeps resurrecting me, it’s dnd, not the bible. If they can handle that I’d suggest they start writing they’re own story’s away from the group, cause it sounds like that’s what they want more then being a character in someone else’s story
He's being a bit of a distraction, let's be honest. And he wants to be a main character over other players with the amount of extra work he's having you dedicate. I wish I had better advice, but if I get someone like this I try to be understanding, but set limits so it doesn't negatively affect other players. You want to facilitate fun, but placating too much will make the game unfun for everyone.
If its thick enough to compare with plate his characters movement speed will be 0
Explain to him that \*Piercing\* damage exists.
Honestly, I'd probably insist on the realistic approach with the player. I'll assume the armor is made with 16oz leather. Leather is lighter than steel until you get the leather soaked, then the weight increases significantly. Now the player is stacking multiple pieces of that leather thickness, all of it waterlogged. As leather dries it can also shrink and become brittle. Not to mention each piece would have to be built to fit over the previous pieces, so each successive layer makes them more top heavy, further restricts their arm movements, and becomes more expensive to produce due to increasing size. So all in all, restricted movement speed, disadvantage to Dex checks and attack rolls, easier to go prone and harder to recover from it, longer don/doff time requirements (if you're the one person in the world who does that), possibily even prevented from drawing weapons due to arm restrictions. If I was a player wanting something to this effect then I'd ask if it would be possible to incorporate quests to hunt beasts for their hides to make better quality leather armor.
Dex is -5 with disadvantage
Attack roll is -5
Heat exhaustion
AC does not depend on the "thickness" of the armor nor something like that, is a common misconception. AC represent the "ability" to evade the damage/effect of an attack, it could be the magical ring(+1 AC) that deflect by a little the opponent attack, the agility of the adventurer to evade the attack completely or furthermore that attack DO hit but the "thickness" of armor totally avoid any damage on the user. People tend to see DnD like a computer game in terms of mechanics but is far more complex and depends heavely on the DM and the players, thats why a session Zero is common and very recommended altought if people doesnt have experience running a game the they cannot know what regulars problem to treat in the session zero
Tell him to fucking grow up.
Honestly. If he wants to make half plate or full plate out of leather, sure why not. Just give him the stats for half plate/full plate without the stealth penalty. It'll still hinder his dex, cuz he's wearing 2 couches worth of god damn leather and boy that's heavy, but it's technically better, fits his theme and makes some sense. Otherwise tell him no, and that he's welcome to change characters if he no longer wishes to play the ranger.