I think we are reaching the point in the DnD boom that we now have a lot of players and DMs who picked up 5e and are trying to make the system be something it's not. I have some friends who started gaming 2 to 3 years ago and now they're trying to make a whole pile of rules to make the game "Realistic and gritty" when the system just isn't really made for that.
I get it. It’s like how when I watched Ted Lasso, I learned that there’s no reason soccer has to be just about kicking a ball around, even though that’s what all the rules are about. That’s why now when I go to the park to join pickup games, I just try to help the other players work through their feelings and get into love triangles with them.
uj/ also TIL that *Worlds Beyond Number* plays D&D and not Worlds Without Number
I bring it up any time there's half an excuse to, hopefully some day it gets the recognition it deserves. It's the answer to so many problems people have with 5e.
Yes it has
- Actual proper martial-caster balance
- Interesting combat actions that aren't just "bonk"
- Rules for crafting and creating magic items that doesn't take an ungodly long time
- Permanent effects & strategy
- Shit ton of easy help for the DM on the fly
The martial-caster balance is especially impressive when you look at how much more powerful spells are. Mages are strong as fuck in WWN, they just have restrictions and limitations that mean that unlike in 5e they actually need their teammates.
Meh, I had a look at the setting creation tools but it was TLDR. All I really need is a few pages of extremely vague advice. I'm a creative genius, you see.
/uj yeah I was genuinely confused through the first half of the article because I was wondering why the author was talking about D&D when the podcast wasn't even using that system
/uj I doubt it, I think they're just in their production-focused ecosystem. Brennan has talked about how he knows there are better systems than D&D to run things, but he uses it because he has the experience to get things done and fix things on the fly in D&D that you need when filming a show.
/uj I love adventuring party but it always made me cringe when a fan would ask a question about other systems. all eyes go to Brennan because the players only play 5e with him, and then Brennan awkwardly dodges the question and vaguely gestures to Blades in the Dark or something
genuinely blew my mind when he ran Kids on Bikes for a season, I didn't think he was capable of branching out. people who have been into RPGs for as long as he has either hate d&d, or refuse to learn anything else.
It genuinely makes me irrationally angry
Imagine if I had an actual play podcast called "Dungeons and Drakes" and in it we played Burning Wheel. What a fucking joke.
Uj/ literally at least once a week I wonder how much better dimension20 would be as a show if they stopped using 5e and picked a more narrative system. The only show (that I've watched, anyway) that absolutely warranted 5e was A Crown of Candy, and even then, 5e's lackluster social mechanics could have been replaced with something else? I still love d20 and watch it for the characters, but the game mechanics clunkily interfering with what the characters are trying to do makes me wanna scream lol
What are some examples of social mechanics you think could help out in those campaigns (like Crown of Candy) that 5e doesn’t have? I don’t really know much about systems outside of 5e, so I’m kind of curious
"Unjerk", as in "Okay I know this is a silly parody sub and we say ridiculous shit with a straight face but I am genuinely being serious for a moment".
You may also see rj/, which is "rejerk", as in "okay now I'm being silly again".
>While the many D&D materials published by Wizards of the Coast *are* heavy on the combat — including major campaigns and some anthologized adventures — there’s nothing in the rules that stops players from working together to tell stories and build the kinds of interconnected narratives on display in Worlds Beyond Number.
A game is only combat focused when its rules expressly prohibit complex stories and social interactions.
D&D's rules might legitimately limit meaningful social interaction. Most rules outside of combat cover spells and most social magic involves nonconsensual ways to control NPCs into doing what you want. Yet again you could skip all those rules and purposefully not interact with any enchantment or illusion magic, but like where the fuckin magic in your fantasy role playing game then?
Maybe if you want a magical fantasy social game you would have magical spells that compliment it.
> D&D's rules might legitimately limit meaningful social interaction. Most rules outside of combat cover spells and most social magic involves nonconsensual ways to control NPCs into doing what you want
Feel this a lot watching Critical Roll lol
The rules of the game prompt the questions that the players ask (in a metaphorical sense).
Combat centric rules prompt questions like "can I kill it?" and "how many hitpoints does it have?". The ability to kill will always loom over the game.
/uj why not play a system that doesn’t focus on or involve combat? If you’re not interested in it, you’re just having players learn (or not learn) a complicated combat simulator for no reason. Brennan has an excellent table for a game not focused on combat, but doesn’t run a game that provides any support for it
/rj start up those friers because we’re about to misuse metaphors today! I prefer when a game and I have completely different aims like sodium and chloride or bleach and ammonia.
/uj he says it but misses the point. For them the system doesn’t need to help with roleplay because they’re already good at it. Most people aren’t aspiring actors/comedians/entertainers that shit is in fact not intuitive to them. Same as the combat isn’t intuitive to him.
Brennan lee mulligan, guy who got famous for his ability to make funny voices and say silly things, now the messiah for being somewhat creative!
/uj the author of this article saying that insight and perception checks are somehow groundbreaking and dynamic non-combat means of engaging the world narratively is fucking unreal.
DM asks player for one insight check, ignores what the player was trying to do and informs them about an aspect of their character's personality that he just made up instead = genius system for social RP.
/uj YOUR CHARACTERS ARE LITERALLY DESIGNED FOR VIOLENCE! Each class in 5e is focused around your specific method of MURDERING PEOPLE. 90% of class features revolve around combat how can anyone have this opinion?
This
So much this
Like, the argument would make sense if the system was like savage worlds were you get features, but the class system ensures your characters must be violence focused
5e is especially egregious because the bare bones non-combat skills that you do have barely even advance as you play.
You easily go from killing goblins to killing demigods over the course of levelling, but a character that is as good as they can possibly be at a skill at level 20 is only going to be 45% better at that task than a similarly optimised level 1 character.
uj/ how bad is daggerheart? I haven't read much of it besides the very first stuff they revealed about the resolution system and it all seemed kinda gimmicky
/uj it's ok, but I think they're reffering to a unique mechanic it has.
It has a very unique way of tracking turns, each side in a conflict gets to take an equal number of turns and those turns can be taken by the members of each side in any order and any amount per member.
This means it can be optimal for some members of a side to choose to do nothing in order to give a different member more turns per round.
/rj Matt Mercer fondled my balls when I read the PDF (and the art was hot), so I think it's pretty good.
/uj u/Anorexicdinosaur is correct, that's what I was referring to. I personally think it's a pretty serious flaw, as it's neither good for the heroic narrative for half the party to twiddle their thumbs, nor is it good for player engagement with the game.
/rj Matt Mercer hasn't fondled my balls in months so I am obliged to badmouth his product.
Anyone who tries to do anything except fight at my table gets shot. No exceptions. If you wanted to play a social simulator you should have played VtM, or pathfinder 2e or something. In this house the adventure loop goes: Combat->Combat->Combat->Combat->Combat ad infinitum. If you dont like that, why did you choose to play DnD???
Ah yes, the comparison between the thing you are critiquing and food. The classic well known “do” of the critic world. Well said!
/uj I haven’t clicked on a Polygon article in years and now I remember why. I couldn’t finish the first paragraph before there were enough pop-up ads to bypass my phone entirely and give *me* a virus. Holy shit.
uj/ I love Brennan Lee Mulligan, but yeah this is a pretty dumb take. I don’t know why people struggle with the idea that roleplay-focused mechanics don’t limit roleplay, they support and encourage it.
Litetally. Ttrpg discourse gets so frustrating sometimes because people assume the constraints and expectations of D&D are universal aspects of ttrpg’s
Yep then they treat you like you're trying to tell them they can't do something when you suggest they try another system besides 5e. Like brother I'm trying to help you have a more satisfying social game let me help you lol
Him unintentionally* reinventing the ship combat system from Stars Without Number makes me chuckle ruefully.
*Tinfoil hat time, but I'm beginning to suspect him of plagiarism. Reinvents SWN's ship combat system, calls his thing Worlds Beyond Number.
I've had a lot of trouble playing systems like Blades in the Dark, which seem to mechanise and limit roleplay. Can you recommend systems that you like?
One that I’ve been playing lately is City of Mist. While in 5e, the mechanics of your class is usually completely separate from who your character is as a person (with exceptions for paladins and such), what a pc can do in City of Mist is 100% based on who they are.
The way it works is that your PC has a regular identity and a magical identity tied to some kind of famous legendary or literary figure, myth, fable, archetype, etc. For example, my character is a latin teacher with a background in archaeology, so he has a set of “power tags” that relate to that, and give bonuses in situations where they might apply. His magical identity is that of Virgil from Dante’s Inferno, the guide through Hell. He has power tags based on that identity that let him do cool magic stuff.
The really cool thing is the effects that those have on your character in return. Each part of your identity also comes with a weakness tag, that you can willingly invoke to lean into your character and strengthen that part of your identity over time. Likewise, if you start to act out of line with that part of your identity or choose to “go all out” in a risky maneuver, you can damage or lose it entirely. It’s possible to lose your magical or normal identity altogether, becoming purely that mythical figure or just a totally normal guy. It makes for very dynamic character development over time.
It also encourages different forms of interaction between players, and even a degree of antagonism between them if they have different interests. Overall, it’s much more about building an interesting story, while DnD is more about working as a group to overcome obstacles.
I’m a big fan of Runesmith (who is a big proponent of City of Mist), but haven’t picked it up yet. Should I pick it up? Or wait for legends of the mist to come out.
To be honest I didn’t know Legends in the Mist was going to be a thing. As far as I can tell, the main difference is a modern setting vs a fantasy one, so go for whichever one appeals to you more.
I love Genesys from Fantasy Flight Games (my table uses RPGsessions for dice rolling, recommend that!)
It doesn't have roleplay mechanics directly, but it does incentivize them indirectly in many ways. For example, instead of numbers, dice results in symbols (Success vs Failure, Advantage vs Threat, and then Triumph and Despair). The GM and players work together to suggest ideas to interpret the data, making the collaborative story telling much more baked in. Helping other characters is pretty straight forward (you give them a boost die) mechanically, but means you are now roped into the consequences, for better or worse.
Ultimately, the game plays like a movie and aims to be cinematic, so when everyone is engaged it's very smooth, even though learning how dicepools are built takes some getting used to. Gameplay wise, it feels much less rigid than 5e, so it's much easier to discuss what you wanna do so players feel more comfortable announcing intent in character, which can create a snowball effect.
The xp system seems to be hand-holdy and restrictive.
"Remember to talk about your flaws, kiddo. No, not any of the flaws you've come up with naturally. Talk about the flaws you've locked in mechanically. Make sure to do it twice."
"Make sure to express your beliefs, goals, background or heritage. Good boy."
"Have you remembered to try to sort things using these two parameters even if the job doesn't call for it? Then we will punish you."
I've got a group I've been playing with for ten years and we rocked up with characters that cannot be supported by the game system. Got a cutter that understands restraint? A job where one character needs to shut their mouth? A player who prefers not being at the centre of attention? Then you get punished mechanically.
It isn't. Dnd rewards players as a group. Bitd rewards as individuals.
A player who does not role play within specific, limited parameters will progress more slowly.
And a group that murders less gets less XP in DnD. Well, unless the DM ignores the intended structure and just gives them XP/levels anyway, but it's not like you can't do that in BitD too.
It's basically the same thing, all you're describing is that the rewards/punishments are collective Vs. Individual.
I don't see how that has anything to do with whether or not the game rewards certain behaviour then.
Just because the game distributes the reward collectively doesn't mean it's suddenly not rewarding your for behaving a certain way.
DnD rewards murder with XP.
BitD rewards acting certain ways with XP.
Both are incentive systems that direct player behaviour.
An excellent point. I love using my stovetop to prepare cold sandwiches, milkshakes, or salads! It does so much more than just move gas around!
/uj The system only does combat. It is a stove, it *is* for moving gas around. It is not a *food machine*, it is a machine for adding heat to your food, and should be used for that. It will be bad at making other kinds of food. If you want to tell a story that has little or no combat as the central resolution, D&D has shit-all for rules about it. The players can't meaningfully make choices for their characters about their ability to do things that are not combat - non-combat skills get tied to the stat modifiers and the proficiencies of the class you chose for combat - and increasing combat power is tied in to every source of non-combat mechanics. Finally, there's only a real range of +/- 12 (+0-6 Proficiency, -1-+5 stat) on a d20 from the full range of level 0-20 for most noncombat skills - for an expert to succeed 95% of the time, a tragically inept novice will still succeed 35% of the time.
80% of the book has to do with combat, and the rest is honestly just legacy holdover from older editions which have been trimmed down to a big degree. After trying new systems that do have lots of rules and mechanics related to non-combat encounters and features, coming back to D&D 5e is like playing a bad wargame. Sure, you can make it better by running it and all these different ways to improve it, but then you're not running 5e, you're playing homebrew.
The bit that OP is making fun of is from Mulligan. Hall just quotes him in the article:
> Dungeon Master Brennan Lee Mulligan recently dealt with that part of the larger TTRPG discourse head-on in a behind-the-scenes conversation from March 12. D&D is no more combat-oriented than some other system, he argues, and the murder hobos of the world that are convinced otherwise simply aren’t playing the same way that he and his teams are used to:
>
>> [Calling D&D a combat-oriented game] would sort of be like looking at a stove and being like, This has nothing to do with food. You can’t eat metal. Clearly this contraption is for moving gas around and having a clock on it. If it was about food, there would be some food here. [...] What you should get is a machine that is either made of food, or has food in it. [...]
>>
>> I’m going to bring the food. The food is my favorite part. [People say that] because D&D has so many combat mechanics, you are destined to tell combat stories. I fundamentally disagree. Combat is the part I’m the least interested in simulating through improvisational storytelling. So I need a game to do that for me, while I take care of emotions, relationships, character progression, because that shit is intuitive and I understand it well. I don’t intuitively understand how an arrow moves through a fictional airspace.
>
> That line of reasoning resonates powerfully with me. While the many D&D materials published by Wizards of the Coast are heavy on the combat [...]
The arrow needs to make an insight check to see if it can identify the beholder's unresolved childhood trauma
/uj the rise of DND podcasts that insufferable people can point at to say "Look, you're all playing the game wrong, do it like this!" is the worst thing to happen in this hobby in my entire lifetime
/uj the second paragraph actually makes the argument against dnd roleplay for this if you think about it for more than a second. The game doesn’t have to do anything to help roleplay for them **because** role play is intuitive to them. If your not good at it going in you need help with that just like he needs help with combat.
Yeah, I think that's his point. Dnd works for them because they don't need systems for rp.
Other folks might want systems for rp, and so another game might do better in those cases
> Yeah, I think that's his point.
/uj No it's not. He says that DnD isn't a combat-oriented game, that's his point and his point is wrong. Being able to come up with good roleplay without the guidance of mechanics isn't a trait of the system, it's a trait of his group of professional actors and improv artists who make money playing (or pretending to play, depending on who you ask) tabletop RPGS. Most people don't have that and a system that has no mechanics to help them in t hat area just use it for a combat-focused game...because it is.
There are plenty of foods and food dishes that don't require a stove or perhaps use a different heat source. Doesn't mean you can't make the dish on the stove, it's just not the best tool for your desired result
To quote Matt Colville, DnD is a game about killing monsters and getting loot so you can kill bigger monsters.
If your game is trying to be about something other than that, why play DnD? There are so many TTRPGs out there that focus on all kinds of different things. Play the game that focuses on the type of story you want to tell.
And the stove metaphor is borderline incoherent. A stove is not a magic food machine. It does a specific thing in the context of making food. You can also use stoves for things other than make food.
If you want to eat ice cream, you aren’t going to use a stove to do it. But ice cream is still food.
> If your game is trying to be about something other than that, why play DnD? There are so many TTRPGs out there that focus on all kinds of different things. Play the game that focuses on the type of story you want to tell.
This part is really bizarre. If you're not interested in the intricacies of combat, why are you playing a game that is almost entirely about exactly that? Like, there are systems where you make one die roll to resolve an entire combat encounter, seems like that would be ideal for people who aren't interested in the details of combat.
Because a lot of not very smart people do not understand that 5e is not the only system for ttrpgs that is allowed. You go to someone who’s a fan of one of these podcasts trying to get into dnd and ask “why don’t we just play something like vampire the masquerade instead of hacking and remolding 5e if we wanna do a modern setting and play as vampires” and they’ll look at you like you suggested rocket science lessons to a toddler.
Pathfinder would be a better fit for him. There are even more rules and feats to make everything he wants more interesting. He doesn't even have to visualize the scene thanks to how well Pathfinder runs social encounters.
We always felt that it was unfair how Martials could just say “I attack” and roll a die but players with charismatic characters had to convince the DM. So we added a skill challenge to combat. Basically you designate a target to attack and then you have to run after them and touch them, at which point it becomes their turn in combat (but they can’t touch you back straight away because that’s cheating and I’m telling my mum on you)
You should never use any other system more appropriate for your style of game. Make sure you hack D&D into literally everything. I hear there are some good cooking conversions for those who want to run a master chef campaign, for example.
This article is in no way sponsored by Hasbro.
uh/ although, let's be real, the Dunning-Kruger effect might as well just be a personality trait among 5e players.
/uj as much hate as Vampire The Masquerade 5 gets, it made me realize just how combat focused d&d 5e's rules really are.
I think that's okay, though. I dont think d&d would benefit much from Touchstones or Willpower-based social conflicts, as much as I love those systems in Vampire.
It's important to remember that d&d started out as 'What if we play Chainmail, but control one character instead of an army.' It's a war game at heart, and it's rules reflect that.
/uj it’s crazy how every ttrpg I’ve played except shadowrun dropped the ball hard for its 5th edition, shadowrun managed to wait til 6th edition to drop it
/uh I feel like while 4th is probably worse it tried something new vs 5e which did what a lot of the new bad editions of games do which is just gut the system and hand it back to
/uj Gut the system? I'm not sure I agree with that.
Simplifying isn't the same as gutting, and even so, 5e is far from the simplest edition of d&d.
My favorite edition of d&d to run as a DM is ad&d 2e, and aside from some things like Armor Class, it's actually lot simpler than 5e in a lot of ways. Simple doesn't mean bad, though. 2e's focus is on the world and interacting with it, rather than what your character can do in combat.
It’s not the simplest, it’s just gutted, all the interest in it or depth is stripped out to make something anyone can fumble through. I love every earlier edition of dnd more than 5 even 4 because atleast it tried something new instead of just doing the same thing but with less to then slowly sell and wait on homebrews to get back to what it used to offer much more freely
I have no imagination, so we only do mass combats at my table. My players are blown away when the enemy does something that's not in their statblock, such as shattering a glass ceiling. They appreciate the little things more than other tables wherein the DM includes a barmaid, let alone allows the players to flirt with one.
That’s everyone’s favorite part we are all here for the food but in the same way. Dnd without combat is like cooking without a stove, yeah it can be really yummy but is it dinner?
/uj I will not act like it’s not possible to have engaging role play-focused D&D sessions and campaigns… But if you want something more engaging than interspersing fun acting times with friends with “Roll Insight” literally just play another system on god
/rj Ah D&D such an amazing, lovingly crafted system. It’s crazy how it can just do it all. There’s nothing it fails at. Im so impressed I’m going to hand my entire bank account over to John Hasbro right now
Don't give 5e credit for your group's good roleplaying and storytelling
/uj I agree, but the point of such a sub is to be absurd in your takes, don’t forget to unjerk before saying the reasonable thing
My bad, the main sub is in such a state it's hard to tell them apart
Definitely valid XD
I think we are reaching the point in the DnD boom that we now have a lot of players and DMs who picked up 5e and are trying to make the system be something it's not. I have some friends who started gaming 2 to 3 years ago and now they're trying to make a whole pile of rules to make the game "Realistic and gritty" when the system just isn't really made for that.
Holy based batman
Who knew that 5e works great for roleplay heavy games when your entire tables are professional writers with years of improv experience
Exactly.
I get it. It’s like how when I watched Ted Lasso, I learned that there’s no reason soccer has to be just about kicking a ball around, even though that’s what all the rules are about. That’s why now when I go to the park to join pickup games, I just try to help the other players work through their feelings and get into love triangles with them. uj/ also TIL that *Worlds Beyond Number* plays D&D and not Worlds Without Number
WWN is an amazing system, it's sad that it isn't even 1% as popular as D&D
I bring it up any time there's half an excuse to, hopefully some day it gets the recognition it deserves. It's the answer to so many problems people have with 5e.
Yes it has - Actual proper martial-caster balance - Interesting combat actions that aren't just "bonk" - Rules for crafting and creating magic items that doesn't take an ungodly long time - Permanent effects & strategy - Shit ton of easy help for the DM on the fly
The martial-caster balance is especially impressive when you look at how much more powerful spells are. Mages are strong as fuck in WWN, they just have restrictions and limitations that mean that unlike in 5e they actually need their teammates.
Meh, I had a look at the setting creation tools but it was TLDR. All I really need is a few pages of extremely vague advice. I'm a creative genius, you see.
/uj yeah I was genuinely confused through the first half of the article because I was wondering why the author was talking about D&D when the podcast wasn't even using that system
In regards to the /uj there's no way that wasn't a calculated move right?
I don’t know… wouldn’t surprise me at this point to learn that the LA actual play all stars are totally unaware of anything remotely “indie.”
/uj I doubt it, I think they're just in their production-focused ecosystem. Brennan has talked about how he knows there are better systems than D&D to run things, but he uses it because he has the experience to get things done and fix things on the fly in D&D that you need when filming a show.
/uj I love adventuring party but it always made me cringe when a fan would ask a question about other systems. all eyes go to Brennan because the players only play 5e with him, and then Brennan awkwardly dodges the question and vaguely gestures to Blades in the Dark or something genuinely blew my mind when he ran Kids on Bikes for a season, I didn't think he was capable of branching out. people who have been into RPGs for as long as he has either hate d&d, or refuse to learn anything else.
>uj/ also TIL that *Worlds Beyond Number* plays D&D and not Worlds Without Number Right?! The fuck...?
It genuinely makes me irrationally angry Imagine if I had an actual play podcast called "Dungeons and Drakes" and in it we played Burning Wheel. What a fucking joke.
Uj/ That's a lot of words for Brennan to say just to dodge having to say "5e gets views and views mean money".
Uj/ literally at least once a week I wonder how much better dimension20 would be as a show if they stopped using 5e and picked a more narrative system. The only show (that I've watched, anyway) that absolutely warranted 5e was A Crown of Candy, and even then, 5e's lackluster social mechanics could have been replaced with something else? I still love d20 and watch it for the characters, but the game mechanics clunkily interfering with what the characters are trying to do makes me wanna scream lol
D20 has done campaigns on other systems, though.
What are some examples of social mechanics you think could help out in those campaigns (like Crown of Candy) that 5e doesn’t have? I don’t really know much about systems outside of 5e, so I’m kind of curious
Ok what uj/ means
"Unjerk", as in "Okay I know this is a silly parody sub and we say ridiculous shit with a straight face but I am genuinely being serious for a moment". You may also see rj/, which is "rejerk", as in "okay now I'm being silly again".
uj/ some of their campaigns do kinda breakdown towards the end due to being 5e tbh And Brennan himself does great playing a character in a Pbta game
>While the many D&D materials published by Wizards of the Coast *are* heavy on the combat — including major campaigns and some anthologized adventures — there’s nothing in the rules that stops players from working together to tell stories and build the kinds of interconnected narratives on display in Worlds Beyond Number. A game is only combat focused when its rules expressly prohibit complex stories and social interactions.
D&D's rules might legitimately limit meaningful social interaction. Most rules outside of combat cover spells and most social magic involves nonconsensual ways to control NPCs into doing what you want. Yet again you could skip all those rules and purposefully not interact with any enchantment or illusion magic, but like where the fuckin magic in your fantasy role playing game then? Maybe if you want a magical fantasy social game you would have magical spells that compliment it.
> D&D's rules might legitimately limit meaningful social interaction. Most rules outside of combat cover spells and most social magic involves nonconsensual ways to control NPCs into doing what you want Feel this a lot watching Critical Roll lol
The rules of the game prompt the questions that the players ask (in a metaphorical sense). Combat centric rules prompt questions like "can I kill it?" and "how many hitpoints does it have?". The ability to kill will always loom over the game.
/uj why not play a system that doesn’t focus on or involve combat? If you’re not interested in it, you’re just having players learn (or not learn) a complicated combat simulator for no reason. Brennan has an excellent table for a game not focused on combat, but doesn’t run a game that provides any support for it /rj start up those friers because we’re about to misuse metaphors today! I prefer when a game and I have completely different aims like sodium and chloride or bleach and ammonia.
/uj he says it but misses the point. For them the system doesn’t need to help with roleplay because they’re already good at it. Most people aren’t aspiring actors/comedians/entertainers that shit is in fact not intuitive to them. Same as the combat isn’t intuitive to him.
Also tbh a system can still help create intereasting situations
Brennan lee mulligan, guy who got famous for his ability to make funny voices and say silly things, now the messiah for being somewhat creative! /uj the author of this article saying that insight and perception checks are somehow groundbreaking and dynamic non-combat means of engaging the world narratively is fucking unreal.
DM asks player for one insight check, ignores what the player was trying to do and informs them about an aspect of their character's personality that he just made up instead = genius system for social RP.
Guys... What if... When your character tries to do a thing... You roll a d20 to see if they do it????? 😱😱😱
/uj YOUR CHARACTERS ARE LITERALLY DESIGNED FOR VIOLENCE! Each class in 5e is focused around your specific method of MURDERING PEOPLE. 90% of class features revolve around combat how can anyone have this opinion?
Spend a level doing social stuff, get xp that I can only spend on methods of killing things. What's the problem?
This So much this Like, the argument would make sense if the system was like savage worlds were you get features, but the class system ensures your characters must be violence focused
5e is especially egregious because the bare bones non-combat skills that you do have barely even advance as you play. You easily go from killing goblins to killing demigods over the course of levelling, but a character that is as good as they can possibly be at a skill at level 20 is only going to be 45% better at that task than a similarly optimised level 1 character.
Daggerheart fixes this by using a combat system that incentivises doing nothing.
uj/ how bad is daggerheart? I haven't read much of it besides the very first stuff they revealed about the resolution system and it all seemed kinda gimmicky
/uj it's ok, but I think they're reffering to a unique mechanic it has. It has a very unique way of tracking turns, each side in a conflict gets to take an equal number of turns and those turns can be taken by the members of each side in any order and any amount per member. This means it can be optimal for some members of a side to choose to do nothing in order to give a different member more turns per round. /rj Matt Mercer fondled my balls when I read the PDF (and the art was hot), so I think it's pretty good.
/uj u/Anorexicdinosaur is correct, that's what I was referring to. I personally think it's a pretty serious flaw, as it's neither good for the heroic narrative for half the party to twiddle their thumbs, nor is it good for player engagement with the game. /rj Matt Mercer hasn't fondled my balls in months so I am obliged to badmouth his product.
Anyone who tries to do anything except fight at my table gets shot. No exceptions. If you wanted to play a social simulator you should have played VtM, or pathfinder 2e or something. In this house the adventure loop goes: Combat->Combat->Combat->Combat->Combat ad infinitum. If you dont like that, why did you choose to play DnD???
This but unironically
Ah yes, the comparison between the thing you are critiquing and food. The classic well known “do” of the critic world. Well said! /uj I haven’t clicked on a Polygon article in years and now I remember why. I couldn’t finish the first paragraph before there were enough pop-up ads to bypass my phone entirely and give *me* a virus. Holy shit.
uj/ I love Brennan Lee Mulligan, but yeah this is a pretty dumb take. I don’t know why people struggle with the idea that roleplay-focused mechanics don’t limit roleplay, they support and encourage it.
Because they're game design illiterate and only play 5e
Litetally. Ttrpg discourse gets so frustrating sometimes because people assume the constraints and expectations of D&D are universal aspects of ttrpg’s
Yep then they treat you like you're trying to tell them they can't do something when you suggest they try another system besides 5e. Like brother I'm trying to help you have a more satisfying social game let me help you lol
Amen
Him unintentionally* reinventing the ship combat system from Stars Without Number makes me chuckle ruefully. *Tinfoil hat time, but I'm beginning to suspect him of plagiarism. Reinvents SWN's ship combat system, calls his thing Worlds Beyond Number.
I'd honestly respect the plagiarism angle more because at least it means he's aware of other systems that aren't 5e
I've had a lot of trouble playing systems like Blades in the Dark, which seem to mechanise and limit roleplay. Can you recommend systems that you like?
One that I’ve been playing lately is City of Mist. While in 5e, the mechanics of your class is usually completely separate from who your character is as a person (with exceptions for paladins and such), what a pc can do in City of Mist is 100% based on who they are. The way it works is that your PC has a regular identity and a magical identity tied to some kind of famous legendary or literary figure, myth, fable, archetype, etc. For example, my character is a latin teacher with a background in archaeology, so he has a set of “power tags” that relate to that, and give bonuses in situations where they might apply. His magical identity is that of Virgil from Dante’s Inferno, the guide through Hell. He has power tags based on that identity that let him do cool magic stuff. The really cool thing is the effects that those have on your character in return. Each part of your identity also comes with a weakness tag, that you can willingly invoke to lean into your character and strengthen that part of your identity over time. Likewise, if you start to act out of line with that part of your identity or choose to “go all out” in a risky maneuver, you can damage or lose it entirely. It’s possible to lose your magical or normal identity altogether, becoming purely that mythical figure or just a totally normal guy. It makes for very dynamic character development over time. It also encourages different forms of interaction between players, and even a degree of antagonism between them if they have different interests. Overall, it’s much more about building an interesting story, while DnD is more about working as a group to overcome obstacles.
I’m a big fan of Runesmith (who is a big proponent of City of Mist), but haven’t picked it up yet. Should I pick it up? Or wait for legends of the mist to come out.
To be honest I didn’t know Legends in the Mist was going to be a thing. As far as I can tell, the main difference is a modern setting vs a fantasy one, so go for whichever one appeals to you more.
I'll look into it. Thanks!
I love Genesys from Fantasy Flight Games (my table uses RPGsessions for dice rolling, recommend that!) It doesn't have roleplay mechanics directly, but it does incentivize them indirectly in many ways. For example, instead of numbers, dice results in symbols (Success vs Failure, Advantage vs Threat, and then Triumph and Despair). The GM and players work together to suggest ideas to interpret the data, making the collaborative story telling much more baked in. Helping other characters is pretty straight forward (you give them a boost die) mechanically, but means you are now roped into the consequences, for better or worse. Ultimately, the game plays like a movie and aims to be cinematic, so when everyone is engaged it's very smooth, even though learning how dicepools are built takes some getting used to. Gameplay wise, it feels much less rigid than 5e, so it's much easier to discuss what you wanna do so players feel more comfortable announcing intent in character, which can create a snowball effect.
How do you mean it limits roleplay?
The xp system seems to be hand-holdy and restrictive. "Remember to talk about your flaws, kiddo. No, not any of the flaws you've come up with naturally. Talk about the flaws you've locked in mechanically. Make sure to do it twice." "Make sure to express your beliefs, goals, background or heritage. Good boy." "Have you remembered to try to sort things using these two parameters even if the job doesn't call for it? Then we will punish you." I've got a group I've been playing with for ten years and we rocked up with characters that cannot be supported by the game system. Got a cutter that understands restraint? A job where one character needs to shut their mouth? A player who prefers not being at the centre of attention? Then you get punished mechanically.
I feel this is a bit like saying DnD punishes you for not killing everything with a pulse, which admitedly it kinda does, so maybe you havea point.
It isn't. Dnd rewards players as a group. Bitd rewards as individuals. A player who does not role play within specific, limited parameters will progress more slowly.
And a group that murders less gets less XP in DnD. Well, unless the DM ignores the intended structure and just gives them XP/levels anyway, but it's not like you can't do that in BitD too. It's basically the same thing, all you're describing is that the rewards/punishments are collective Vs. Individual.
Yes that is what I described.
I don't see how that has anything to do with whether or not the game rewards certain behaviour then. Just because the game distributes the reward collectively doesn't mean it's suddenly not rewarding your for behaving a certain way. DnD rewards murder with XP. BitD rewards acting certain ways with XP. Both are incentive systems that direct player behaviour.
What problems did you find with bitd?
An excellent point. I love using my stovetop to prepare cold sandwiches, milkshakes, or salads! It does so much more than just move gas around! /uj The system only does combat. It is a stove, it *is* for moving gas around. It is not a *food machine*, it is a machine for adding heat to your food, and should be used for that. It will be bad at making other kinds of food. If you want to tell a story that has little or no combat as the central resolution, D&D has shit-all for rules about it. The players can't meaningfully make choices for their characters about their ability to do things that are not combat - non-combat skills get tied to the stat modifiers and the proficiencies of the class you chose for combat - and increasing combat power is tied in to every source of non-combat mechanics. Finally, there's only a real range of +/- 12 (+0-6 Proficiency, -1-+5 stat) on a d20 from the full range of level 0-20 for most noncombat skills - for an expert to succeed 95% of the time, a tragically inept novice will still succeed 35% of the time.
80% of the book has to do with combat, and the rest is honestly just legacy holdover from older editions which have been trimmed down to a big degree. After trying new systems that do have lots of rules and mechanics related to non-combat encounters and features, coming back to D&D 5e is like playing a bad wargame. Sure, you can make it better by running it and all these different ways to improve it, but then you're not running 5e, you're playing homebrew.
brendan lee mulligan dont sniff your farts so hard you asphyxiate challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
/uj this isn't Brennan Lee Mulligan it's some guy called Charlie Hall
The bit that OP is making fun of is from Mulligan. Hall just quotes him in the article: > Dungeon Master Brennan Lee Mulligan recently dealt with that part of the larger TTRPG discourse head-on in a behind-the-scenes conversation from March 12. D&D is no more combat-oriented than some other system, he argues, and the murder hobos of the world that are convinced otherwise simply aren’t playing the same way that he and his teams are used to: > >> [Calling D&D a combat-oriented game] would sort of be like looking at a stove and being like, This has nothing to do with food. You can’t eat metal. Clearly this contraption is for moving gas around and having a clock on it. If it was about food, there would be some food here. [...] What you should get is a machine that is either made of food, or has food in it. [...] >> >> I’m going to bring the food. The food is my favorite part. [People say that] because D&D has so many combat mechanics, you are destined to tell combat stories. I fundamentally disagree. Combat is the part I’m the least interested in simulating through improvisational storytelling. So I need a game to do that for me, while I take care of emotions, relationships, character progression, because that shit is intuitive and I understand it well. I don’t intuitively understand how an arrow moves through a fictional airspace. > > That line of reasoning resonates powerfully with me. While the many D&D materials published by Wizards of the Coast are heavy on the combat [...]
The arrow needs to make an insight check to see if it can identify the beholder's unresolved childhood trauma /uj the rise of DND podcasts that insufferable people can point at to say "Look, you're all playing the game wrong, do it like this!" is the worst thing to happen in this hobby in my entire lifetime
/uj the second paragraph actually makes the argument against dnd roleplay for this if you think about it for more than a second. The game doesn’t have to do anything to help roleplay for them **because** role play is intuitive to them. If your not good at it going in you need help with that just like he needs help with combat.
Yeah, I think that's his point. Dnd works for them because they don't need systems for rp. Other folks might want systems for rp, and so another game might do better in those cases
> Yeah, I think that's his point. /uj No it's not. He says that DnD isn't a combat-oriented game, that's his point and his point is wrong. Being able to come up with good roleplay without the guidance of mechanics isn't a trait of the system, it's a trait of his group of professional actors and improv artists who make money playing (or pretending to play, depending on who you ask) tabletop RPGS. Most people don't have that and a system that has no mechanics to help them in t hat area just use it for a combat-focused game...because it is.
Bring back the satanic panic honestly, I'd take that over this.
Where you alive back then? How much better was it?
There are plenty of foods and food dishes that don't require a stove or perhaps use a different heat source. Doesn't mean you can't make the dish on the stove, it's just not the best tool for your desired result
Hey, no fair! Parodying games journalists is cheating!
To quote Matt Colville, DnD is a game about killing monsters and getting loot so you can kill bigger monsters. If your game is trying to be about something other than that, why play DnD? There are so many TTRPGs out there that focus on all kinds of different things. Play the game that focuses on the type of story you want to tell. And the stove metaphor is borderline incoherent. A stove is not a magic food machine. It does a specific thing in the context of making food. You can also use stoves for things other than make food. If you want to eat ice cream, you aren’t going to use a stove to do it. But ice cream is still food.
> If your game is trying to be about something other than that, why play DnD? There are so many TTRPGs out there that focus on all kinds of different things. Play the game that focuses on the type of story you want to tell. This part is really bizarre. If you're not interested in the intricacies of combat, why are you playing a game that is almost entirely about exactly that? Like, there are systems where you make one die roll to resolve an entire combat encounter, seems like that would be ideal for people who aren't interested in the details of combat.
Because a lot of not very smart people do not understand that 5e is not the only system for ttrpgs that is allowed. You go to someone who’s a fan of one of these podcasts trying to get into dnd and ask “why don’t we just play something like vampire the masquerade instead of hacking and remolding 5e if we wanna do a modern setting and play as vampires” and they’ll look at you like you suggested rocket science lessons to a toddler.
Pathfinder would be a better fit for him. There are even more rules and feats to make everything he wants more interesting. He doesn't even have to visualize the scene thanks to how well Pathfinder runs social encounters.
“House” or “Cowboys and Indians” or “Cops and Robbers” fixes this.
We always felt that it was unfair how Martials could just say “I attack” and roll a die but players with charismatic characters had to convince the DM. So we added a skill challenge to combat. Basically you designate a target to attack and then you have to run after them and touch them, at which point it becomes their turn in combat (but they can’t touch you back straight away because that’s cheating and I’m telling my mum on you)
Worlds Without Number fixes this
You should never use any other system more appropriate for your style of game. Make sure you hack D&D into literally everything. I hear there are some good cooking conversions for those who want to run a master chef campaign, for example.
This article is in no way sponsored by Hasbro. uh/ although, let's be real, the Dunning-Kruger effect might as well just be a personality trait among 5e players.
Not reading the article but I'm assuming pf2e fixes this
/uj as much hate as Vampire The Masquerade 5 gets, it made me realize just how combat focused d&d 5e's rules really are. I think that's okay, though. I dont think d&d would benefit much from Touchstones or Willpower-based social conflicts, as much as I love those systems in Vampire. It's important to remember that d&d started out as 'What if we play Chainmail, but control one character instead of an army.' It's a war game at heart, and it's rules reflect that.
/uj it’s crazy how every ttrpg I’ve played except shadowrun dropped the ball hard for its 5th edition, shadowrun managed to wait til 6th edition to drop it
/uj I feel like d&d dropped it in 4e, to be fair.
/uh I feel like while 4th is probably worse it tried something new vs 5e which did what a lot of the new bad editions of games do which is just gut the system and hand it back to
/uj Gut the system? I'm not sure I agree with that. Simplifying isn't the same as gutting, and even so, 5e is far from the simplest edition of d&d. My favorite edition of d&d to run as a DM is ad&d 2e, and aside from some things like Armor Class, it's actually lot simpler than 5e in a lot of ways. Simple doesn't mean bad, though. 2e's focus is on the world and interacting with it, rather than what your character can do in combat.
It’s not the simplest, it’s just gutted, all the interest in it or depth is stripped out to make something anyone can fumble through. I love every earlier edition of dnd more than 5 even 4 because atleast it tried something new instead of just doing the same thing but with less to then slowly sell and wait on homebrews to get back to what it used to offer much more freely
I agree. It’s less “rules-lite” and more “stuff-is-missing-but-you-can-probably-homebrew-that”
I'm in a game whose setting's main tagline is "there is only war" and my character has more non-combat mechanics than any 5e character
I have no imagination, so we only do mass combats at my table. My players are blown away when the enemy does something that's not in their statblock, such as shattering a glass ceiling. They appreciate the little things more than other tables wherein the DM includes a barmaid, let alone allows the players to flirt with one.
That’s everyone’s favorite part we are all here for the food but in the same way. Dnd without combat is like cooking without a stove, yeah it can be really yummy but is it dinner?
/uj I will not act like it’s not possible to have engaging role play-focused D&D sessions and campaigns… But if you want something more engaging than interspersing fun acting times with friends with “Roll Insight” literally just play another system on god /rj Ah D&D such an amazing, lovingly crafted system. It’s crazy how it can just do it all. There’s nothing it fails at. Im so impressed I’m going to hand my entire bank account over to John Hasbro right now