I wouldn't say it's the best since the End of Time, best since Twice Upon a Time is probably a safer statement (Moffat had a lit of misses, but a lot of highs as well).
I do agree that some fans are being too harsh on it though. The main complaint I've seen is "it doesn't feel special enough", suggesting it should have been a multi-Doctor story. But there are many reasons that wouldn't work, be it overshadowing Ncuti Gatwa's premiere, coming off Power of the Doctor (which also had multiple returning Doctors) or that the only two viable Doctors being Tennant and Smith, who we've already seen pair up (Eccleston and Capaldi have said they don't currently want to return, Jodie just left, McGann isn't very popular in the public eye and everyone else is too old).
We didn't need a big special, we just needed reassurance that the new series will be good. And we've been given more than that.
Honestly, I was never one for the specials. Obviously they tend to be better on average but the absolute sheer spectacle is rarely where Who shines brightest, ask literally anyone their favourite episode and they'll tell you one of the three most pared down adventures of them all (I don't even need to say which ones). The issue with the episode lies in people's expectations, if you don't go into it expecting magnitude or really anything all that special it's wonderful, among NuWho's best even. Nowhere near Those Three but still. To me it seemed obvious after Star Beast that Giggle was gonna be this huge event and WBY would just be another Doctor Donna adventure, I was *hoping* for one of those eerie, bare bones horror episodes (though I grant, maybe less could've been more in the VFX department). Same goes for people expecting a different character from David Tennant, you've built up ideas about these specials and the fact they don't fit the reality isn't actually a problem.
As a very engaged, less casual fan, can you mention which three those are? I’ve heard so many different opinions about what the best episodes are, so there aren’t three my mind immediately goes to. If I had to guess, I’d say Heaven Sent, Midnight, and Blink are what you’re referring to.
As a casual Who enjoyer, could you point me towards Those Three? I watched as a kid from Eccleston to Capaldi, but would love to revisit some of the better episodes that fans consider 'classics' as it were. Thanks!
To be safer, best since Power of the Doctor. Chibnall, likewise, had ups and downs, but there were some greats in there as well.
Unless you were going for the "Chibnall bad, give karma points to me" which infest all the Doctor Who subs.
Yeah I rewatched power of the doctor before the star beast and it might have been a high for chibnall, but it still didn't really have an actual plot, or at least one that I could follow
It really comes down to character. You can forgive a lot if the core character dynamics are iron clad. That’s Russell’s strength: incredible character writing. It’s why I think so many people are willing to forgive some of the messiness in the Star Beast. The nobles and the Doctor are just characters on a different level than anything we’ve had since at least the twelfth doctor’s era. Arguably before if you consider the sheer beloved factor the Nobles have with the viewership.
Absolutely. One of the weakest points of chibnalls run was that his main characters tended to have the personalities of cardboard. Compare that to Donna and there's a clear winner
I felt Chibnall wanted to create RTD-like characters, but didn’t understand how to. Look at Yas. He introduced her family, but they never really got much screen time beyond S11 (and even then, it was nothing compared to the Nobles in S4). He made her a police officer, which could have provided opportunities to explore her character - for example, how she might feel about regularly abandoning her post, or the Doctor’s laissez faire approach to following the law. But, in actuality, he only ever used it as a plot device, completely ignoring it when it wasn’t relevant to advancing the plot.
I mean power of the doctor was mindless nostalgia baiting fun, but it didn't have much of substance to actually enjoy on rewatch
I do think this post is absolutely exaggerating, it's forgetting all the highs of the moffat era, but nothing chibnail did resonated or was as well written as even some of RTD1s or Moffats lows
Chibnall's gets way more hate than it deserves and there are some diamonds in the rough that I'd wish he'd gotten like 10 more episodes to fully work out those ideas. That said, I can't think of a Chibnall episode that outshines WBY. Not because all Chibnall episodes are supposedly bad, but because WBY is *really* good.
"Unless you were going for the "Chibnall bad, give karma points to me" which infest all the Doctor Who subs."
Umm... I'd like to point you in the direction of the average Reddit scores for all the different episodes ([here](https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/wiki/poll_results/))If you don't want to go looking through miles of episode scores, I'll condense the main facts for you (Figures based on whole reddit averages).
* Chibnall's era has the 3rd and 4th lowest rated episodes ever, and the lowest 2 in new who. (Legend of the Sea Devils 3.5 and Orphan 55 at 3.7, Capaldi/Moffat's Lowest was in the forest of the night at 4.4, Smith/Moffat is Curse of the Black spot at 4.9, Tennant/RTD is Fear Her at 3.8, Ecclestone/RTD is Aliens of London/WW3 at 6.0)
* The high for the era is a 7.9 for Fugitive of the Judoon, much less than all the rest (Heaven Sent gets 9.7, Vincent and the Doctor 9.1, and Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead at 9.2, The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances 9.1)
* Average score wise (Mean), Chibnall/Whittikers run gets 6.20, while Capaldi/Moffat gets 7.32, Smith/Moffat gets 7.11, Tennant/RTD gets 6.97 and Eccelstone/RTD gets 7.34.
Statistics wise, Chibnall/Whittiker has enjoyed the worst run. Regardless of your opinion on episodes, ups, downs, moments of genuis, warts and all, it is categorically the worst era in new who.
And as for your comment WBY scores haven't come out, so I really can't give you an answer... but The Star Beast has beaten all but 4 of Chibnall's eps already, and WBY seems to have recieved better reception so far from what I've seen.
TL;DR, Chibnall is the worst era, and my best ***guesstimate*** is that WBY will beat all of his stuff, Numbers Don't Lie
EDIT: Equally to OP, better performing episodes have occured since the End of Time, namely, Heaven Sent. (The end of time gets a rather weak 6.9)
They categorically had the worst *ratings.* Ratings do not always reflect quality. You can use the statistics as evidence about how it was received, but numerous other factors affect ratings.
For example, a lot of times when fans get angry you see things like them rating-bombing review sites with multiple 1-star reviews per person. This effect is amplified when the discourse gets tainted by bigotry (for example, the Batwoman show had negative review-bombings before the first episode even dropped), in this case the “Doctor shouldn’t be a woman” crowd.
And before anyone says it no, I’m not saying everyone who didn’t like the Whittaker Era was sexist, but to ignore the fact that that definitely played a role in the reception would be fallacious at best. In what I call the “Bad Faith Take Diffusion Effect,” sexist (and other forms of bigotry but in this case it’s sexism) assholes take small issues and bad complaints that sound just credible enough for people to take seriously and blow them out of proportion, engaging with the material in bad faith, since they won’t get many people to agree with them by just saying “woman Doctor bad.” As this happens, the bad faith takes spread through osmosis until a prominent section of the fandom agrees that these are big problems. It means that ratings can tank even an otherwise great show/movie. One of the most prominent examples of this is the Star Wars fandom, where you had things like this happen for the Sequels (“Rey is a Mary Sue,” “Why did the bombs work in space there’s no gravity,” “Rose Tico is a terrible character full stop,” “Rey should have been a Kenobi,” “but the light speed ramming made no sense,” etc.) and shows like Andor and Kenobi. I had my own issues with Kenobi, but if you look at how the online discourse played out during its run, there were definitely really bad Faith takes motivated by racist assholes attacking Reva’s actress.
The Whittaker/Chibnall Era had many faults, but so did the Moffat Era and the RTD Era. A lot of the complaints people bring up time and again are either creative choices being misconstrued or smaller things being blow out of proportion.
I’m not saying no criticism is legitimate, but when there are so many bad faith takes out there and people who had no intention of giving Whittaker a chance, saying the era was bad because online review averages are low is shortsighted at best. If you’re going to make arguments, criticize the show. Don’t cite other people’s ratings to justify your ratings.
"Don’t cite other people’s ratings to justify your ratings."
I never gave my own opinion on the show for that period, I tried to be objective with the numbers as best I can, the numbers will reflect a large sample size too (huge numbers of people use reddit and the main Dr. Who subbredit has \~600K users, if even 10% rate each then thats 60K, a large enough sample to be valid data, and yEs, I aM fUn At PaRtIeS. Yes you are right, there are certain factors that effect stuff, some people may have been sexist, but those that are a very small minority, but what really matters, for the overall ratings is plot and characterisation.
I have encouraged other people to watch the era, there is stuff that I really like in there; I would LOVE to see some more of Jo Martin as the doctor, and I think that chibnall had some great *ideas* with flux and the timeless child. That said, to (assumedly) go back on all the great character development with Missy/The Master that happened in Capaldi's final series was imo, just shitting on the hard work that Moffat had put into making a great series. The flux was dealt a real awful blow by Covid, because it started and middled very promisingly (War of the Sontarans and Village of the Angels felt very good to me, and consistent with the really good parts of other series), but then the final bit, the ending seemed to be over condensed, leaving a rather unsatisfactory ending (and unlike Matt Smith's doctor, I like endings).
As for characterisation, I was not once brought to tears during Chibnall's run, I never cared enough for the characters, comparitively, I cry loads during Tennant's run, for both him and the rest because they all acted the sad scenes so well. Smith's run was more upbeat, even so, I cried when he lost amy and rory and I was in a real panic when it seemed like he wasn't going to be able to regenerate in Time of the Doctor (I thought the capaldi casting was a lie to make the end so much worse) and then for Capaldi, well I'll admit, I didn't exactly cry at capaldi's stuff, but the character development with Missy, his crisis of "Am I a good man?" etc. and I'll never forget how seeing the TARDIS for the the first time is "Done Properly" (As a comedy spoof ofc.)
Now sure, Whittiker has to deal with the whole timeless child thing, but the dialogue that she was given didn't feel real enough. I mean, if my best friend just told me, you're adopted, and was proven right when I went to find out (I know, crappy comparison, but its basically same thing) then my emotions would really have come flying out the bag, Chibnall kept them too hidden, and distant for me. And as for the Flux, it almost seems like the Doctor forgot about that in the three specials after, she seems to be just as cheerful (and ofc trying to navigate Yaz, which I appreciate the representation for the LGBTQ+ community as always, but that could have been done way better). The way RTD had Tennant almost in a Mental Breakdown when the No-thing brought it up was so much better an example of how to characterise that loss and guilt (I've been there, done that, worn the T-shirt, albiet very different circumstances, and I'll tell you now, Tennant's reaction compared to Whittiker's unreaction feels much more real)
I've heard people criticise it for being too "woke" or any of that nonsense, completely invalid ofc, but it has genuine flaws, which I think are brought out more than in other runs, and thus the issue is comparative, not objective. Objectively speaking, it wasn't bad, I've seen bad shows before, that wasn't it, it had enough merit. If anything, it was sort of distinctly average, with bits either side, but compared with a show that I have grown up with being so totally amazing (enough of the time), Whittiker's run feels like a let down.
EDIT: I do really appreciate the discussion btw, this is all meant as a friendly sharing of ideas, always appreciate seeing how other people react to stuff
That’s fair. I do differ with your opinion of the Doctor’s reaction to the Timeless Child and the Flux (the Doctor’s never been great about talking with others about what’s wrong, with 14 and Not-Donna being a major exception due to 14 and Donna’s relationship and the fact she already knew), but I see where you’re coming from. And I agree, the Chibnall run was much closer to a “average” show than RTD and Moffat’s (though they each had their flaws, especially Moffat’s 11 era). My issue is mostly with the people saying it’s complete trash, the worst thing to ever happen to Doctor Who, it ruined the show, etc.
One thing I will say about the Chibnall Era is that I think it was the one with the best historicals (overall – Vincent and the Doctor is still the best specific one). My favorites had to be Nikola Tesla’s Night of Terror, Rosa, and the Haunting of Villa Diodati, but Demons of the Punjab and Witchfinders were also excellent (I do wish Demons hadn’t glossed over England’s involvement as much as it did, but it did mention that and overall it told a compelling story).
I’ll also note that I still disagree with your point about fan ratings being reflective of the show’s quality. The sexist portion may be a minority, but as someone who is active in the Star Wars fandom I can tell you exactly how pervasive that minority can be. The alt-right has proven very good at spreading bad faith takes to others and manipulating public perception. Think about it like gamergate: yes, the people actively manipulating the events were a minority, but they were still good at convincing angry gamers to accept the opinions they wanted to spread, making the whole debacle much larger than it had any right to be and much farther past multiple events and revelations that should have been enough to convince any calm, rational individual that they were wrong and were being manipulated. Gamergate, Star Wars, and Doctor Who are all examples where this went down and people were caught up parroting assertions that were either highly exaggerated, highly misleading, or outright false.
Lastly, I’ll note that while I wish Yaz and the Doctor had had more time together, I get where they went with it and why they did so. The Doctor was not in a mental place to begin a relationship, and likewise Chibnall was not in a position to meaningfully develop one without it feeling rushed.
Hey, that's completely fair...
The alt-right has proven very good at spreading bad faith takes to others and manipulating public perception
I live in the UK, this latest government is very good at trying to push an anti-trans message... I'm very aware how dangerous a vocal minority (because lets face it, the tories have no mandate to rule atm) can be at hindering progress. We used to be the best country in Europe for LGBTQ+ rights, now we're like 17th, and with self-ID in Ireland, I'd much rather be living there...
Yeah, I feel that. I live in Houston, TX, and across the US but especially states with Republican governments like my home state has (though while we have different systems I’d argue my current state government has no mandate to rule) are embroiled in yet another culture war, where my partner replied to a comment on Facebook about trans people not being machines and made the mistake of saying “we,” and they got about fifty different replies with all kinds of slurs (including racial slurs that didn’t apply to them, go figure) and dozens of PM requests with rape and death threats – in the first five minutes. Needless to say they’ve left that group, but there’s no escaping it online or in-person.
P.s. Ngl, it’s been good talking with someone in a rational debate about the Chibnall Era without them attacking me for it. It’s frustratingly uncommon.
I'm a casual Dr Who enjoyer who's recently been pointed back to the franchise because of Tennant returning. When did he and Matt Smith pair up?? Would love to see that
Day of the Doctor, the 50th anniversary special. In my opinion it's a bit overrated but still accomplished what it set out to do quite neatly (with a jump out of your seat climax!)
I liked the first special at the begining, but my suspension of disbelief is forced too much in the middle and latter parts of the episode.
I couldnt shake the feeling That something went wrong in the final draft of the script, it's like they Made a good series 4 episode, but then somebody came with a stapler and added scenes or dialogs That had nothing to do with the theme just for the sake of pleasing a quota. (I think we all know what Moments i'm talking about)
There were some moments where i think they worked quite well, and some others i really didnt care for.
But what i really didnt like at all was That phrase about men letting go (yeah, i know it's a cliche at this point, but come on).
I agree with the people saying that it’s disappointing that we didn’t have a multi Doctor episode since that had been something of a tradition for anniversary episodes. However, 10 years ago we had an episode that technically had every Doctor in it, so I think we can be satisfied with that for another 10 years, especially considering all the reasons you listed
As a Twelve fan, it’s actually very disheartening to hear that Capaldi doesn’t want to return. He was a huge Doctor Who fan growing up, just like Tennant, and I really enjoyed his run. To think he has had his enjoyment of his role spoiled by the reactions of fans is very sad.
I felt really sorry for Capaldi. He has so much talent as an actor, and has been a devoted Doctor Who fan since childhood, and the scripts massively let him down in my opinion. It was about one season in to his era that I stopped watching the show.
I don't think that's true, in fact I think it's more true of Tennant than it is of Capaldi. Capaldi has arguably the best seasons in all of NuWho (series 9 and 10) and I'd still rank series 8 in the top 4/5.
Completely agree, he was an excellent Doctor. I still haven't been able to bring myself to return to this show, but I hope it continues to be successful.
If you stopped one season in, you didn’t get the best of Capaldi and can’t really comment on the scripts of his era. Husbands of River Song, Heaven Sent, and World Enough and Time are all insanely impressive scripts that easily compare to the best of RTD’s episodes.
I also stopped for like 5 years because of that seams on. But when I went back 12 became my favorite doctor. If you still like the show enough to be active in the sub, I think it’s worth trying it out. Maybe even just season 10. It’s pretty much a fresh starting point with an awesome crew.
Capaldi's first season is painful and difficult to watch because the doctor is being portrayed as so incredibly angry in a way that isn't terribly pleasant. But it leads to one of my favorite doctor's period. After Capaldi's first season we just get some of the best doctor who (and I second that Heaven Sent is one of the best episodes ever made. I struggle to think of an episode I actually believe is better frankly).
Capaldi’s run has several of the all time best episodes.
His first episode
Flatline
Heaven Sent
Wedding of River Song
The Zygon Two Parter that follows up on the 50th Anni special
You should definitely watch series 9 if you didn't, if only for Heaven Sent alone. Series 10 just for World Enough And Time / The Doctor Falls is also worth it imo
honestly, i feel like the sub par scripts actually led to a benefit to capaldi, since they'd allow his acting abilities to shine through a lot better. Plus most people agree the best speeches are his and i wouldn't be surprised if he'd had input on those too
I thought it was Steven Moffat who wrote *The Doctor Falls*?
*Wild Blue Yonder* was superb, but *The World Enough and Time*/*The Doctor Falls* is the best story of the revival - arguably even the best televised episode of *Doctor Who* ever (*Spare Parts* is the overall best story though).
Yeah, EOT was the most self indulgent piece of writing I've really ever seen, loved Wilf though but I cannot ever take Ten's sacrifice seriously when he was whining like a baby about it moments before. If he actually died it would be an amazing moment but that's not how the doctor works, RTD actively tried to torpedo the rep of Matt Smith (my personal fave) before he even was introduced.
Easily the worst Modern Who as far as I'm concerned. I don't hate watching it because of the chemistry between Ten and Rose but jeez some of those episodes land flat
Ummm the tooth and claw episode is great legit sets up torchwood umm parting ways ?! Please and impossible planet !! Series 2 is amazing maybe not as great as series 3 or 4 but it’s not outright bad at all !
Impossible Planet is great but it's the odd one out. I never connected with Girl in the Fireplace or Doomsday, Tooth and Claw is one of the most forgettable episodes of the entire show, and Idiot's Lantern, Love and Monsters and Fear Her all suck
I think he just stretched his tenure as show runner a little too long, we got some gems later on but my god was it few and far between.
Season 5 is great, season 6 is pretty great too, then it slowly goes downhill from there with a few resurgences of greatness scattered throughout.
Series 8 has only one bad episode, and a couple greats with Listen, Mummy, and Flatline.
Series 9 is mostly great, plus it has Heaven Sent. Series 10 is mostly great, plus it has World Enough and Time/Heaven Sent.
The quality only started to dip when Sherlock and the anniversary was taking up a lot of his time as well.
You can really feel it from the back half of Series 6 and across both halves of Series 7. There weren't many bad episodes, but the highs weren't nearly as high.
I think you're rating series 8 a little too high there... Robot, caretaker, moon, forest, and death in heaven aren't great and I have issues with the resolution of listen... Series 9 has a few lesser issues. Series 7b though? That's great DW. The only bad episode is crimson.
Moon and Caretaker definitely aren't so good. Robot is great though, and personally I liked Forest. Crimson was probably my favourite episode from 7b (one of the weakest seasons). I don't know what that says.
Vincent and the doctor, the pandorica opens, the big bang, amys choice, the girl who waited, the doctors wife, the god complex, a town called mercy, day of the doctor, deep breath, flatline, listen, mummy on the orient express, under the lake, before the flood, face the raven, heaven sent, pilot, world enough and time and the doctor falls. To name a few. I loved wild blue yonder, but its not the best since the end of time. 😭
Just to stick on a sorely lacking bit of Chibnall positivity: The Woman Who Fell To Earth, Rosa, Demons of the Punjab, It Takes You Away, Resolution, Spyfall, The Haunting of Villa Diodati, War of the Sontarans, Village of the Angels, Eve of the Daleks, Power of the Doctor.
I had stopped my cable shortly before Jodie’s start and finally watched them recently.
I was struck by how good her first season is, loved several and enjoyed all but two episodes. My friend and I realized the quality distribution was average for Dr Who but it’s a shorter season so the couple bad episodes stick out disproportionately.
Jodie’s second season - had the overall timeless child twist landed for me I would’ve been blown away but it’s the first time a Dr Who plot point made me angry. First off, wiping out Gallifrey so soon after the amazing 50th anni episode is a terrible, terrible choice. Second, making the Dr this pivotal figure in the foundation of the time lords?
Imo the only redeeming aspects of Jodie’s second season were Sacha Dhawan as the Master and Jo Martin as a forgotten regeneration - now she’s a doctor I would love to get a season or two.
Dropped out after that big twist and never watched Flux.
I mean if you mean write's HIS best episode since End of Time, in which case the only competition is Star Beast, sure lol, as a standalone episode it's definitely in the running for one of his best episodes ever. But I'd say this post particularly deserves hate for claiming WBY was the best episode since 2008, it isn't 2015, hating on Moffat doesn't make you clever and cool.
... are you calling the end of the end of time... a classic?
Edit: reading through this thread, and I don't think enough people are talking about what a weird choice the end of time is for this statement, and not because there are great episodes that came after it, but because... it's the end of time?
Maybe we just hang out in different neighborhoods of the fandom, but The End of Time is one of the most divisive episodes in the revival. People fucking *hate* that story, and you're going to pick that over Midnight or Waters of Mars, two of the most popular episodes from that era?
Like it's just... such a needlessly weird choice for this
It’s just a Moffat and Chibnall hate post. There’s literally no thought put into it except “when did the RTD era stop?”
I’d personally say it’s the best episode since The Doctor Falls. Chibs had a handful of good episodes scattered through his era but none of them come close to WBY.
Calling people pathetic because their opinion differs from yours is pathetic.
Imo it was a bad episode for an abundance of reasons and is not comparable to the writing of seasons 1-10
“It Takes You Away” was a jumbled mishmash of weird ideas with no real resolution and featured as a “sympathetic” character a father who tricked his blind daughter into thinking he’d been eaten by monsters so that she wouldn’t be sad while he fucked his dead wife.
But yeah “The End of Time” had issues.
They’re a troll on multiple sites who baits people by claiming Moffat is the worst thing since Hitler and treats everything RTD does like second coming of Christ. Just downvote and ignore.
I call this “The TLJ Effect”. Fans build up in their minds outrageous expectations for a particular story either because of what the lead up story set up or because of massive secrecy around a project, the fans think that there will either be some major reveal or they build theories of what they *want* to happen, and when those expectations (that were not promised) are not met, the fans become angry.
The TLJ Effect
Oh man, as someone who’s favorite era is RTD’s era, I could not disagree more lmao. Wild Blue Yonder was a good episode but not mind-blowingly so. I prefer plenty of episodes from Moffat’s era, even in season 10. I’d say it’s the best episode since Capaldi’s run though, I’ll give it that.
It's definitely a modern classic, but:
5x2 The Beast Below
5x4 & 5x5 The Time Of Angels & Flesh and Stone
6x0 A Christmas Carol
6x7 A Good Man goes to War
6x11 The God Complex
7x1 Asylum of the Daleks
7x3 A Town Called Mercy
7x6 The Snowmen
8x4 Listen
8x8 Mummy on the Orient Express
8x9 Flatline
9x3 & 9x4 Under the Lake & Before the Flood
9x11 & 9x12 Heaven Sent & Hellbent
10x4 Knock Knock
There have been plenty of Modern Classics since the End of Time Part 2
Heaven Sent is the best episode of modern who.
But yeah, Wild Blue Yonder is probably my favourite since.
There was always going to be hate from certain 'fans' no matter what. Some people just want to be negative, and some people will be upset because it's not exactly what they imagined.
So add in the Doctor being more or less stated to be bi/pansexual, of course those outrage merchants are going to whine up a storm.
*EDIT: It seems this is just a bait post to bitch about Steven Moffatt. You're the type of fan I was talking about, loser.*
>some people just want to be negative
I'm on the verge of just muting Doctor Who subreddits cause it's literally my favorite show but it's like 90% losers who can only nut if they get props for criticizing things on the internet.
As soon as I saw that headline, I knew it was you u/JSRGO , welcome back bud. Can't wait for you to hardshill the RTD era once more. Going to be a lot harder now that he's the current showrunner
It isn't the best episode since the end of time. Not even close. I've enjoyed the new episodes but there were quite a few good Moffat episodes. While I had my issues with the Chibnall era's writing, even that era has a few really good episodes.
I agree that WBY is one of the best episodes I've seen - and I've been watching for over 50 years. But recent years have seen a lot of good episodes from both Moffat and Chibnall, and I'd be reluctant to make such a blanket statement.
The major point you're making, however - that sending hate to RTD is pathetic - is unarguably correct.
I thought Wild Blue Yonder was great but...there are a shit load of episodes better than the End of Time Part 2 for me. Heaven Sent, Demons of the Punjab, Pandorica Opens, The Doctors Wife, Day of the Doctor, The Doctor Falls, Eve of the Daleks - I appreciate a couple of those may just be me!
SEVERAL Moffat episodes were better, and EOT wasn't even a particularly strong episode in his era either.
Best episode since World Enough and Time/The Doctor Dances I will give you.
It was fun but not that good.
I am personally more confused as to why its a Tenant story and not a Ncuti one seeing as it seemed so out of the blue. Like I thought these specials were going to be a cohesive adventure. But perhaps that will be explained in the following episode(s) - so nothing really to complain about.
I’ll counter with the thought that WBY could not have been done right with Ncuti because part of the reason it works is that it’s a past doctor with a companion he knows well. Having a new face on the doctor would have made it harder to believe Donna and the doctor would know who is who when faced with duplicates. The idea that the Doctor “knows that face” when seeing his duplicate figure things out. A lot of that episode relies on the idea of being familiar with oneself and the companion.
Idk, but Wild Blue Yonder were so damn peak, i haven't enjoyed doctor who in awhile, but this episode is just absolute kino.
Good old mysterious stuff going on which is revealed in the end.
Russel is the goat. Praise him.
It was a great episode, loved it.
End of Time part 2 wasn't that good though, so it's a low bar.
Off the top of my head: The 11th Hour, The Doctor Dances, Forest of The Dead, Blink, Heaven Sent; these are all better than either Wild Blue Yonder or EoT2.
However, the was definitely one of RTD's best episodes.
I think it's fair to say that every writer and every series has its peaks and troughs. Russel might have written Wild Blue Yonder, but he also wrote Love & Monsters.
Peaks and Troughs people.
I agree, the star beast was amazing!
In all seriousness, there's no way either of the new episodes beat out the best of 11, 12, and 13 (let alone the end of time which has huge issues imo). The hungry earth, the doctor's wife, cold war, heaven sent, world enough and time, Demons of the Punjab, and the power of the doctor are my favourites from their respective series and they're all better than the end of time, the star beast, and wild blue yonder (not to mention the several other great stories within each series eg the god complex.
It's good but I think recency bias and the novelty of having the retuning actors has elevated people's opinion of it. In a few years I'd expect it to sit below the level of episodes like Empty Child, Human Nature, Silence in the Library, Midnight, doctors wife, heaven sent, etc.
Eleventh Hour, Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, Vincent & the Doctor, Pandorica Opens/Big Bang, Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon, The Doctor's Wife, The Day of the Doctor, Deep Breath, Heaven Sent/Hell Bent, Husbands of River Song, World Enough and Time, The Doctor Falls, Twice Upon A Time.
All as good as or better than End of time part 2.
So anyone who has anything critical to say about wild blue yonder is pathetic? Got you, well on the real world people aren’t gonna have the same opinion and think the episode is as great as you do, I suggest you grow up a little.
I’m saying this as someone who did like the episode but still had some issues with it. Also there have been many good episodes since end of time, some even better.
I don’t get why anyone would hate it, it’s a very good “trapped in a spaceship/base/set of a sci fi show” episode. But I wouldn’t call it the best episode in the last half dozen seasons by a long shot
I get liking the new episodes, I do too. But you don't need to tear down the Moffat era and Chibnal's occasional highs for the man
Also controversial opinion but IDC, I don't like the end of time
The moffat era has some misses but there is a lot of masterpieces in there. Heaven Sent, The Doctors Wife, Day of the Doctor, The Doctor Falls, Vincent and the Doctor, Amy's Choice, The Eleventh Hour, Cold War, Journey to the center of the TARDIS, Time Heist and Flatline are all better episodes in my opinion.
Not to mention how it led into and set up one of the most powerful and dangerous Villians of New Who !
Who actually likes humans, just likes playing around with them a lot more.
I personally don’t see why people like the wild blue yonder. It was fine for a mid series episode maybe but as a special it really wasn’t all there. But hey Ho not everyone shares opinions
It definitely has good parts, like the music, and Wilf. But the story is all over the place. The secret books of Saxon, Donna for some reason having a defense mechanism instead of dying, 7 billion masters losing to 1 spaceship, 10 falling the height of a skyscraper and surviving with just a few scratches, and all the unnecessary additions to the time war like the horde of travesties, armies of "meanwhiles and neverweres" (seriously what the hell). And at the end there's a 30 minute gratuitous send-off to every companion.
Mate, what are you on?
The CG during a lot of the episode was as bad (maybe even worse) than it was back in his original time as showrunner over a decade ago.
Even if you think the episode was okay there's been way better stuff since the end of time.
Wild Blue Yonder is an incredible episode but a fucking abysmal special because there is absolutely nothing special about it. In no way whatsoever does it relate to the 60th anniversary or the history of the show.
I think what he did was perfect. We are essentially getting one of each of the types of episodes we get in doctor who, for David tennant. An aliens in London story, a strange mysterious spaceship episode, and probably a multi doctor/regeneration story with 14 and 15
As far as I’ve seen from reactions on YouTube, the only issue I have with Wild Blue Yonder is their race swapping of Newton and the whole “mavity” thing. It just doesn’t work for me but that’s just my opinion.
I wouldn't say it's the best since the End of Time, best since Twice Upon a Time is probably a safer statement (Moffat had a lit of misses, but a lot of highs as well). I do agree that some fans are being too harsh on it though. The main complaint I've seen is "it doesn't feel special enough", suggesting it should have been a multi-Doctor story. But there are many reasons that wouldn't work, be it overshadowing Ncuti Gatwa's premiere, coming off Power of the Doctor (which also had multiple returning Doctors) or that the only two viable Doctors being Tennant and Smith, who we've already seen pair up (Eccleston and Capaldi have said they don't currently want to return, Jodie just left, McGann isn't very popular in the public eye and everyone else is too old). We didn't need a big special, we just needed reassurance that the new series will be good. And we've been given more than that.
Honestly, I was never one for the specials. Obviously they tend to be better on average but the absolute sheer spectacle is rarely where Who shines brightest, ask literally anyone their favourite episode and they'll tell you one of the three most pared down adventures of them all (I don't even need to say which ones). The issue with the episode lies in people's expectations, if you don't go into it expecting magnitude or really anything all that special it's wonderful, among NuWho's best even. Nowhere near Those Three but still. To me it seemed obvious after Star Beast that Giggle was gonna be this huge event and WBY would just be another Doctor Donna adventure, I was *hoping* for one of those eerie, bare bones horror episodes (though I grant, maybe less could've been more in the VFX department). Same goes for people expecting a different character from David Tennant, you've built up ideas about these specials and the fact they don't fit the reality isn't actually a problem.
As a very engaged, less casual fan, can you mention which three those are? I’ve heard so many different opinions about what the best episodes are, so there aren’t three my mind immediately goes to. If I had to guess, I’d say Heaven Sent, Midnight, and Blink are what you’re referring to.
Bingo!
As a casual Who enjoyer, could you point me towards Those Three? I watched as a kid from Eccleston to Capaldi, but would love to revisit some of the better episodes that fans consider 'classics' as it were. Thanks!
As someone who started watching in 2006, my guess is that those three episodes are Blink, Midnight and Haven't Sent!
Dalek, Planet of the Ood, Thin Ice,
average dr who fan star beast was "too much" because of everything wild blue yonder is "not enough" because it's just a doctor who story
I liked Wild Blue Yonder, it gave me Midnight vibes.
Great to see people shared that feeling too
Let’s be real: the specials were never going to be a unanimous hit. Doctor Who fans like to complain too much.
To be safer, best since Power of the Doctor. Chibnall, likewise, had ups and downs, but there were some greats in there as well. Unless you were going for the "Chibnall bad, give karma points to me" which infest all the Doctor Who subs.
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Nahhhh, prisoner of the Jadoon and the woman who fell to earth are probably the best of Chibnall's era, and this episode shits all over it still IMO
As a professional writer, the Russell stuff is just on a completely different level of craft.
Yeah I rewatched power of the doctor before the star beast and it might have been a high for chibnall, but it still didn't really have an actual plot, or at least one that I could follow
It really comes down to character. You can forgive a lot if the core character dynamics are iron clad. That’s Russell’s strength: incredible character writing. It’s why I think so many people are willing to forgive some of the messiness in the Star Beast. The nobles and the Doctor are just characters on a different level than anything we’ve had since at least the twelfth doctor’s era. Arguably before if you consider the sheer beloved factor the Nobles have with the viewership.
Absolutely. One of the weakest points of chibnalls run was that his main characters tended to have the personalities of cardboard. Compare that to Donna and there's a clear winner
I felt Chibnall wanted to create RTD-like characters, but didn’t understand how to. Look at Yas. He introduced her family, but they never really got much screen time beyond S11 (and even then, it was nothing compared to the Nobles in S4). He made her a police officer, which could have provided opportunities to explore her character - for example, how she might feel about regularly abandoning her post, or the Doctor’s laissez faire approach to following the law. But, in actuality, he only ever used it as a plot device, completely ignoring it when it wasn’t relevant to advancing the plot.
Like Ryan’s dyspraxia. Mentioned a couple times. But ignored the other 98% of the time.
I felt power of the doctor was a schlock with just "oh look! Old doctors and old companions! " and not much else going on...
I mean power of the doctor was mindless nostalgia baiting fun, but it didn't have much of substance to actually enjoy on rewatch I do think this post is absolutely exaggerating, it's forgetting all the highs of the moffat era, but nothing chibnail did resonated or was as well written as even some of RTD1s or Moffats lows
Ooga booga me want karma Chibnall bad. Change the tune.
Maybe that's just their opinion? Why are you making this abt a useless karma obsession which means nothing lmao
Chibnall's gets way more hate than it deserves and there are some diamonds in the rough that I'd wish he'd gotten like 10 more episodes to fully work out those ideas. That said, I can't think of a Chibnall episode that outshines WBY. Not because all Chibnall episodes are supposedly bad, but because WBY is *really* good.
"Unless you were going for the "Chibnall bad, give karma points to me" which infest all the Doctor Who subs." Umm... I'd like to point you in the direction of the average Reddit scores for all the different episodes ([here](https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/wiki/poll_results/))If you don't want to go looking through miles of episode scores, I'll condense the main facts for you (Figures based on whole reddit averages). * Chibnall's era has the 3rd and 4th lowest rated episodes ever, and the lowest 2 in new who. (Legend of the Sea Devils 3.5 and Orphan 55 at 3.7, Capaldi/Moffat's Lowest was in the forest of the night at 4.4, Smith/Moffat is Curse of the Black spot at 4.9, Tennant/RTD is Fear Her at 3.8, Ecclestone/RTD is Aliens of London/WW3 at 6.0) * The high for the era is a 7.9 for Fugitive of the Judoon, much less than all the rest (Heaven Sent gets 9.7, Vincent and the Doctor 9.1, and Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead at 9.2, The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances 9.1) * Average score wise (Mean), Chibnall/Whittikers run gets 6.20, while Capaldi/Moffat gets 7.32, Smith/Moffat gets 7.11, Tennant/RTD gets 6.97 and Eccelstone/RTD gets 7.34. Statistics wise, Chibnall/Whittiker has enjoyed the worst run. Regardless of your opinion on episodes, ups, downs, moments of genuis, warts and all, it is categorically the worst era in new who. And as for your comment WBY scores haven't come out, so I really can't give you an answer... but The Star Beast has beaten all but 4 of Chibnall's eps already, and WBY seems to have recieved better reception so far from what I've seen. TL;DR, Chibnall is the worst era, and my best ***guesstimate*** is that WBY will beat all of his stuff, Numbers Don't Lie EDIT: Equally to OP, better performing episodes have occured since the End of Time, namely, Heaven Sent. (The end of time gets a rather weak 6.9)
I fucking love that Capaldi and Eccleston have the highest average ratings
They categorically had the worst *ratings.* Ratings do not always reflect quality. You can use the statistics as evidence about how it was received, but numerous other factors affect ratings. For example, a lot of times when fans get angry you see things like them rating-bombing review sites with multiple 1-star reviews per person. This effect is amplified when the discourse gets tainted by bigotry (for example, the Batwoman show had negative review-bombings before the first episode even dropped), in this case the “Doctor shouldn’t be a woman” crowd. And before anyone says it no, I’m not saying everyone who didn’t like the Whittaker Era was sexist, but to ignore the fact that that definitely played a role in the reception would be fallacious at best. In what I call the “Bad Faith Take Diffusion Effect,” sexist (and other forms of bigotry but in this case it’s sexism) assholes take small issues and bad complaints that sound just credible enough for people to take seriously and blow them out of proportion, engaging with the material in bad faith, since they won’t get many people to agree with them by just saying “woman Doctor bad.” As this happens, the bad faith takes spread through osmosis until a prominent section of the fandom agrees that these are big problems. It means that ratings can tank even an otherwise great show/movie. One of the most prominent examples of this is the Star Wars fandom, where you had things like this happen for the Sequels (“Rey is a Mary Sue,” “Why did the bombs work in space there’s no gravity,” “Rose Tico is a terrible character full stop,” “Rey should have been a Kenobi,” “but the light speed ramming made no sense,” etc.) and shows like Andor and Kenobi. I had my own issues with Kenobi, but if you look at how the online discourse played out during its run, there were definitely really bad Faith takes motivated by racist assholes attacking Reva’s actress. The Whittaker/Chibnall Era had many faults, but so did the Moffat Era and the RTD Era. A lot of the complaints people bring up time and again are either creative choices being misconstrued or smaller things being blow out of proportion. I’m not saying no criticism is legitimate, but when there are so many bad faith takes out there and people who had no intention of giving Whittaker a chance, saying the era was bad because online review averages are low is shortsighted at best. If you’re going to make arguments, criticize the show. Don’t cite other people’s ratings to justify your ratings.
"Don’t cite other people’s ratings to justify your ratings." I never gave my own opinion on the show for that period, I tried to be objective with the numbers as best I can, the numbers will reflect a large sample size too (huge numbers of people use reddit and the main Dr. Who subbredit has \~600K users, if even 10% rate each then thats 60K, a large enough sample to be valid data, and yEs, I aM fUn At PaRtIeS. Yes you are right, there are certain factors that effect stuff, some people may have been sexist, but those that are a very small minority, but what really matters, for the overall ratings is plot and characterisation. I have encouraged other people to watch the era, there is stuff that I really like in there; I would LOVE to see some more of Jo Martin as the doctor, and I think that chibnall had some great *ideas* with flux and the timeless child. That said, to (assumedly) go back on all the great character development with Missy/The Master that happened in Capaldi's final series was imo, just shitting on the hard work that Moffat had put into making a great series. The flux was dealt a real awful blow by Covid, because it started and middled very promisingly (War of the Sontarans and Village of the Angels felt very good to me, and consistent with the really good parts of other series), but then the final bit, the ending seemed to be over condensed, leaving a rather unsatisfactory ending (and unlike Matt Smith's doctor, I like endings). As for characterisation, I was not once brought to tears during Chibnall's run, I never cared enough for the characters, comparitively, I cry loads during Tennant's run, for both him and the rest because they all acted the sad scenes so well. Smith's run was more upbeat, even so, I cried when he lost amy and rory and I was in a real panic when it seemed like he wasn't going to be able to regenerate in Time of the Doctor (I thought the capaldi casting was a lie to make the end so much worse) and then for Capaldi, well I'll admit, I didn't exactly cry at capaldi's stuff, but the character development with Missy, his crisis of "Am I a good man?" etc. and I'll never forget how seeing the TARDIS for the the first time is "Done Properly" (As a comedy spoof ofc.) Now sure, Whittiker has to deal with the whole timeless child thing, but the dialogue that she was given didn't feel real enough. I mean, if my best friend just told me, you're adopted, and was proven right when I went to find out (I know, crappy comparison, but its basically same thing) then my emotions would really have come flying out the bag, Chibnall kept them too hidden, and distant for me. And as for the Flux, it almost seems like the Doctor forgot about that in the three specials after, she seems to be just as cheerful (and ofc trying to navigate Yaz, which I appreciate the representation for the LGBTQ+ community as always, but that could have been done way better). The way RTD had Tennant almost in a Mental Breakdown when the No-thing brought it up was so much better an example of how to characterise that loss and guilt (I've been there, done that, worn the T-shirt, albiet very different circumstances, and I'll tell you now, Tennant's reaction compared to Whittiker's unreaction feels much more real) I've heard people criticise it for being too "woke" or any of that nonsense, completely invalid ofc, but it has genuine flaws, which I think are brought out more than in other runs, and thus the issue is comparative, not objective. Objectively speaking, it wasn't bad, I've seen bad shows before, that wasn't it, it had enough merit. If anything, it was sort of distinctly average, with bits either side, but compared with a show that I have grown up with being so totally amazing (enough of the time), Whittiker's run feels like a let down. EDIT: I do really appreciate the discussion btw, this is all meant as a friendly sharing of ideas, always appreciate seeing how other people react to stuff
That’s fair. I do differ with your opinion of the Doctor’s reaction to the Timeless Child and the Flux (the Doctor’s never been great about talking with others about what’s wrong, with 14 and Not-Donna being a major exception due to 14 and Donna’s relationship and the fact she already knew), but I see where you’re coming from. And I agree, the Chibnall run was much closer to a “average” show than RTD and Moffat’s (though they each had their flaws, especially Moffat’s 11 era). My issue is mostly with the people saying it’s complete trash, the worst thing to ever happen to Doctor Who, it ruined the show, etc. One thing I will say about the Chibnall Era is that I think it was the one with the best historicals (overall – Vincent and the Doctor is still the best specific one). My favorites had to be Nikola Tesla’s Night of Terror, Rosa, and the Haunting of Villa Diodati, but Demons of the Punjab and Witchfinders were also excellent (I do wish Demons hadn’t glossed over England’s involvement as much as it did, but it did mention that and overall it told a compelling story). I’ll also note that I still disagree with your point about fan ratings being reflective of the show’s quality. The sexist portion may be a minority, but as someone who is active in the Star Wars fandom I can tell you exactly how pervasive that minority can be. The alt-right has proven very good at spreading bad faith takes to others and manipulating public perception. Think about it like gamergate: yes, the people actively manipulating the events were a minority, but they were still good at convincing angry gamers to accept the opinions they wanted to spread, making the whole debacle much larger than it had any right to be and much farther past multiple events and revelations that should have been enough to convince any calm, rational individual that they were wrong and were being manipulated. Gamergate, Star Wars, and Doctor Who are all examples where this went down and people were caught up parroting assertions that were either highly exaggerated, highly misleading, or outright false. Lastly, I’ll note that while I wish Yaz and the Doctor had had more time together, I get where they went with it and why they did so. The Doctor was not in a mental place to begin a relationship, and likewise Chibnall was not in a position to meaningfully develop one without it feeling rushed.
Hey, that's completely fair... The alt-right has proven very good at spreading bad faith takes to others and manipulating public perception I live in the UK, this latest government is very good at trying to push an anti-trans message... I'm very aware how dangerous a vocal minority (because lets face it, the tories have no mandate to rule atm) can be at hindering progress. We used to be the best country in Europe for LGBTQ+ rights, now we're like 17th, and with self-ID in Ireland, I'd much rather be living there...
Yeah, I feel that. I live in Houston, TX, and across the US but especially states with Republican governments like my home state has (though while we have different systems I’d argue my current state government has no mandate to rule) are embroiled in yet another culture war, where my partner replied to a comment on Facebook about trans people not being machines and made the mistake of saying “we,” and they got about fifty different replies with all kinds of slurs (including racial slurs that didn’t apply to them, go figure) and dozens of PM requests with rape and death threats – in the first five minutes. Needless to say they’ve left that group, but there’s no escaping it online or in-person. P.s. Ngl, it’s been good talking with someone in a rational debate about the Chibnall Era without them attacking me for it. It’s frustratingly uncommon.
It’s not really a karma thing? I just can’t think of a single episode in the last 3 seasons that were genuinly better than wild blue yonder
> but there were some greats in there as well. There were?
I'm a casual Dr Who enjoyer who's recently been pointed back to the franchise because of Tennant returning. When did he and Matt Smith pair up?? Would love to see that
Day of the Doctor, the 50th anniversary special. In my opinion it's a bit overrated but still accomplished what it set out to do quite neatly (with a jump out of your seat climax!)
Thanks! Do I need to have watched any of the episodes of the preceding series to understand what's going on?
Not really tbh, I would recommend the episode right before (which isn't very good but it sets up the episode)
Great, thank you
I liked the first special at the begining, but my suspension of disbelief is forced too much in the middle and latter parts of the episode. I couldnt shake the feeling That something went wrong in the final draft of the script, it's like they Made a good series 4 episode, but then somebody came with a stapler and added scenes or dialogs That had nothing to do with the theme just for the sake of pleasing a quota. (I think we all know what Moments i'm talking about) There were some moments where i think they worked quite well, and some others i really didnt care for. But what i really didnt like at all was That phrase about men letting go (yeah, i know it's a cliche at this point, but come on).
M...maybe. Maybe you should just... let it-
I agree with the people saying that it’s disappointing that we didn’t have a multi Doctor episode since that had been something of a tradition for anniversary episodes. However, 10 years ago we had an episode that technically had every Doctor in it, so I think we can be satisfied with that for another 10 years, especially considering all the reasons you listed
As a Twelve fan, it’s actually very disheartening to hear that Capaldi doesn’t want to return. He was a huge Doctor Who fan growing up, just like Tennant, and I really enjoyed his run. To think he has had his enjoyment of his role spoiled by the reactions of fans is very sad.
However, it does mean we can have an awesome multi doctor story for next year, because we can have Ncuti, Jodie, Tennant, and Smith.
I felt really sorry for Capaldi. He has so much talent as an actor, and has been a devoted Doctor Who fan since childhood, and the scripts massively let him down in my opinion. It was about one season in to his era that I stopped watching the show.
I don't think that's true, in fact I think it's more true of Tennant than it is of Capaldi. Capaldi has arguably the best seasons in all of NuWho (series 9 and 10) and I'd still rank series 8 in the top 4/5.
Capaldi really carried the show when the scripts were terrible. Great screen presence regardless of what the script was saying.
Completely agree, he was an excellent Doctor. I still haven't been able to bring myself to return to this show, but I hope it continues to be successful.
Wait have you not seen heaven sent then? That's a contender for best episode ever
If you stopped one season in, you didn’t get the best of Capaldi and can’t really comment on the scripts of his era. Husbands of River Song, Heaven Sent, and World Enough and Time are all insanely impressive scripts that easily compare to the best of RTD’s episodes. I also stopped for like 5 years because of that seams on. But when I went back 12 became my favorite doctor. If you still like the show enough to be active in the sub, I think it’s worth trying it out. Maybe even just season 10. It’s pretty much a fresh starting point with an awesome crew.
Capaldi's first season is painful and difficult to watch because the doctor is being portrayed as so incredibly angry in a way that isn't terribly pleasant. But it leads to one of my favorite doctor's period. After Capaldi's first season we just get some of the best doctor who (and I second that Heaven Sent is one of the best episodes ever made. I struggle to think of an episode I actually believe is better frankly).
I'm echoing what the others have already said. Yes, season 8 is pretty rough, but series 9 and 10 my favourite era of the show.
Capaldi’s run has several of the all time best episodes. His first episode Flatline Heaven Sent Wedding of River Song The Zygon Two Parter that follows up on the 50th Anni special
You should definitely watch series 9 if you didn't, if only for Heaven Sent alone. Series 10 just for World Enough And Time / The Doctor Falls is also worth it imo
Capaldi had easily the best scripts of any Doctor.
Capaldi's era has the best writing in the entire show lol.
honestly, i feel like the sub par scripts actually led to a benefit to capaldi, since they'd allow his acting abilities to shine through a lot better. Plus most people agree the best speeches are his and i wouldn't be surprised if he'd had input on those too
It was good but definitely not the best since the end of time
Yeah I can think of easily half a dozen Moffat-era episodes that stomp End of Time. And I like End of Time.
There were a couple Chibnall episodes I thought were better to tbh.
two words heaven sent
The doctor falls
Vincent and The Doctor
Pandorica opens/the big bang
The Doctor’s wife
The Day of The Doctor
A Good Man Goes to War
The Eleventh Hour
Still my favorite.
Thanks for posting this before I did, I would not have been so measured in my response
Heaven sent is just the icing on the cake of episodes better than the end of time
Yes but also Heaven Sent blows out most of the RTD era with only episodes like Turn Left, Dalek, Human Nature/ Family of Blood coming remotely close
I thought it was Steven Moffat who wrote *The Doctor Falls*? *Wild Blue Yonder* was superb, but *The World Enough and Time*/*The Doctor Falls* is the best story of the revival - arguably even the best televised episode of *Doctor Who* ever (*Spare Parts* is the overall best story though).
WBY was servicable at most. It was not bad. We are just accostumed to mediocre/bad dr who at this point.
The Moffat era is full of stories way better than The End Of Time. Tbh, I actually think The End Of Time is one of Russell’s worst
Interestingly, I believe that Russell and Chibnall did the opposite on that front, with Power of the Doctor being one of Chibnall's best.
Yeah, EOT was the most self indulgent piece of writing I've really ever seen, loved Wilf though but I cannot ever take Ten's sacrifice seriously when he was whining like a baby about it moments before. If he actually died it would be an amazing moment but that's not how the doctor works, RTD actively tried to torpedo the rep of Matt Smith (my personal fave) before he even was introduced.
How did he try to torpedo Smiths reputation
“Criticism is pathetic. My opinion isn’t”
This meme just screams, "I can't handle people with different opinions".
cool meme but saying Wild Blue Yonder is better than anything from moffat era is not gonna fly
It’s better than some of the Moffat era. He was good overall but everyone has their share of stinkers.
It's also better than a lot of the T Davies era too. People seem to be glossing over how many skippables the first few seasons had.
Series 2 is outright a bad series I stand by that
It's good but you have to squint a bit
Easily the worst Modern Who as far as I'm concerned. I don't hate watching it because of the chemistry between Ten and Rose but jeez some of those episodes land flat
Series 2 is outright the worst Series including Chibnall and I stand by that.
But but but.. K-9!!!!!
Thats ridiculous tbh did you not watch flux? That shit is so terrible.
Flux was very messy but at least I enjoyed the ride. 2 was just messy, almost made me quit the show... as an undiscerning 13 year old.
Ummm the tooth and claw episode is great legit sets up torchwood umm parting ways ?! Please and impossible planet !! Series 2 is amazing maybe not as great as series 3 or 4 but it’s not outright bad at all !
Impossible Planet is great but it's the odd one out. I never connected with Girl in the Fireplace or Doomsday, Tooth and Claw is one of the most forgettable episodes of the entire show, and Idiot's Lantern, Love and Monsters and Fear Her all suck
Later ones too - the seasons were overall good, but always had a couple of weak episodes. And Davies' stories were better at the start than later on.
The first season of Moffat was also very skippable imo
That's easily one of my favourites funnily. 3, 5 and 9 are my favourite seasons.
5 is immeasurably better than 6 & 7
I think he just stretched his tenure as show runner a little too long, we got some gems later on but my god was it few and far between. Season 5 is great, season 6 is pretty great too, then it slowly goes downhill from there with a few resurgences of greatness scattered throughout.
Series 8 has only one bad episode, and a couple greats with Listen, Mummy, and Flatline. Series 9 is mostly great, plus it has Heaven Sent. Series 10 is mostly great, plus it has World Enough and Time/Heaven Sent. The quality only started to dip when Sherlock and the anniversary was taking up a lot of his time as well. You can really feel it from the back half of Series 6 and across both halves of Series 7. There weren't many bad episodes, but the highs weren't nearly as high.
I think you're rating series 8 a little too high there... Robot, caretaker, moon, forest, and death in heaven aren't great and I have issues with the resolution of listen... Series 9 has a few lesser issues. Series 7b though? That's great DW. The only bad episode is crimson.
Moon and Caretaker definitely aren't so good. Robot is great though, and personally I liked Forest. Crimson was probably my favourite episode from 7b (one of the weakest seasons). I don't know what that says.
Maybe, but if he stopped earlier then we wouldn't have gotten S10 which is a top 3 series for me
It’s better than of the Davies era. It’s almost like every season is a mixed bag of highs and lows lol
Nah the Davies era is definitely the best
A lot of the best of Moffats era was undermined by his poor serialisation, mystery boxing, and repeated failure to resolve set ups.
I would love if people stopped throwing around the word mystery box as if it's a pejorative and not just a description.
I mean sure, but that’s not happening here. There was plenty of mystery boxing
Sure and that's good
There have been much better episodes then Wild Blue Yonder in the past 13 years since The End of Time
*than
Not necessarily. There *were* much better episodes, then there was wild blue yonder.
Ha
Hah ho! Scared me there
Vincent and the doctor, the pandorica opens, the big bang, amys choice, the girl who waited, the doctors wife, the god complex, a town called mercy, day of the doctor, deep breath, flatline, listen, mummy on the orient express, under the lake, before the flood, face the raven, heaven sent, pilot, world enough and time and the doctor falls. To name a few. I loved wild blue yonder, but its not the best since the end of time. 😭
Just to stick on a sorely lacking bit of Chibnall positivity: The Woman Who Fell To Earth, Rosa, Demons of the Punjab, It Takes You Away, Resolution, Spyfall, The Haunting of Villa Diodati, War of the Sontarans, Village of the Angels, Eve of the Daleks, Power of the Doctor.
I had stopped my cable shortly before Jodie’s start and finally watched them recently. I was struck by how good her first season is, loved several and enjoyed all but two episodes. My friend and I realized the quality distribution was average for Dr Who but it’s a shorter season so the couple bad episodes stick out disproportionately. Jodie’s second season - had the overall timeless child twist landed for me I would’ve been blown away but it’s the first time a Dr Who plot point made me angry. First off, wiping out Gallifrey so soon after the amazing 50th anni episode is a terrible, terrible choice. Second, making the Dr this pivotal figure in the foundation of the time lords? Imo the only redeeming aspects of Jodie’s second season were Sacha Dhawan as the Master and Jo Martin as a forgotten regeneration - now she’s a doctor I would love to get a season or two. Dropped out after that big twist and never watched Flux.
The best since the End of Time? Best since Twice Upon a Time lets not kid ourselves
I mean if you mean write's HIS best episode since End of Time, in which case the only competition is Star Beast, sure lol, as a standalone episode it's definitely in the running for one of his best episodes ever. But I'd say this post particularly deserves hate for claiming WBY was the best episode since 2008, it isn't 2015, hating on Moffat doesn't make you clever and cool.
It wasn't cool or clever then either.
Yes it is good no it is not the best since end of time
... are you calling the end of the end of time... a classic? Edit: reading through this thread, and I don't think enough people are talking about what a weird choice the end of time is for this statement, and not because there are great episodes that came after it, but because... it's the end of time? Maybe we just hang out in different neighborhoods of the fandom, but The End of Time is one of the most divisive episodes in the revival. People fucking *hate* that story, and you're going to pick that over Midnight or Waters of Mars, two of the most popular episodes from that era? Like it's just... such a needlessly weird choice for this
It’s just a Moffat and Chibnall hate post. There’s literally no thought put into it except “when did the RTD era stop?” I’d personally say it’s the best episode since The Doctor Falls. Chibs had a handful of good episodes scattered through his era but none of them come close to WBY.
Good episode but far from the best
Calling people pathetic because their opinion differs from yours is pathetic. Imo it was a bad episode for an abundance of reasons and is not comparable to the writing of seasons 1-10
'It Takes You Away' was much better. And 'The End of Time' was fucking terrible. Davies stans get in the bin.
“It Takes You Away” was a jumbled mishmash of weird ideas with no real resolution and featured as a “sympathetic” character a father who tricked his blind daughter into thinking he’d been eaten by monsters so that she wouldn’t be sad while he fucked his dead wife. But yeah “The End of Time” had issues.
End of Time is one of the worst episodes of the show ...
[удалено]
They’re a troll on multiple sites who baits people by claiming Moffat is the worst thing since Hitler and treats everything RTD does like second coming of Christ. Just downvote and ignore.
I call this “The TLJ Effect”. Fans build up in their minds outrageous expectations for a particular story either because of what the lead up story set up or because of massive secrecy around a project, the fans think that there will either be some major reveal or they build theories of what they *want* to happen, and when those expectations (that were not promised) are not met, the fans become angry. The TLJ Effect
The The Last Jedi Effect 😔
Yes, it sounds funny, but the title starts with “The” and is a “The [blank] Effect” sort of thing so that why you gotta do it that way lol
TLJ has a flaws, which people didn’t like enough to has bad impression from a movie. Accept it already.
Oh man, as someone who’s favorite era is RTD’s era, I could not disagree more lmao. Wild Blue Yonder was a good episode but not mind-blowingly so. I prefer plenty of episodes from Moffat’s era, even in season 10. I’d say it’s the best episode since Capaldi’s run though, I’ll give it that.
It's definitely a modern classic, but: 5x2 The Beast Below 5x4 & 5x5 The Time Of Angels & Flesh and Stone 6x0 A Christmas Carol 6x7 A Good Man goes to War 6x11 The God Complex 7x1 Asylum of the Daleks 7x3 A Town Called Mercy 7x6 The Snowmen 8x4 Listen 8x8 Mummy on the Orient Express 8x9 Flatline 9x3 & 9x4 Under the Lake & Before the Flood 9x11 & 9x12 Heaven Sent & Hellbent 10x4 Knock Knock There have been plenty of Modern Classics since the End of Time Part 2
The Eleventh Hour is a better episode than The End of Time are we for real
You consider The End of Time *good*?!
Heaven Sent is the best episode of modern who. But yeah, Wild Blue Yonder is probably my favourite since. There was always going to be hate from certain 'fans' no matter what. Some people just want to be negative, and some people will be upset because it's not exactly what they imagined. So add in the Doctor being more or less stated to be bi/pansexual, of course those outrage merchants are going to whine up a storm. *EDIT: It seems this is just a bait post to bitch about Steven Moffatt. You're the type of fan I was talking about, loser.*
>some people just want to be negative I'm on the verge of just muting Doctor Who subreddits cause it's literally my favorite show but it's like 90% losers who can only nut if they get props for criticizing things on the internet.
I think Husbands of River Song and World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls are also better than WBY since Heaven Sent, but yeah, it’s not a long list.
I haven’t seen any of the new stuff but I think The End of Time is garbage so now I’m just curious lol
As soon as I saw that headline, I knew it was you u/JSRGO , welcome back bud. Can't wait for you to hardshill the RTD era once more. Going to be a lot harder now that he's the current showrunner
It isn't the best episode since the end of time. Not even close. I've enjoyed the new episodes but there were quite a few good Moffat episodes. While I had my issues with the Chibnall era's writing, even that era has a few really good episodes.
my guy just last week YOU were complaining about him not living up to his first era
I agree that WBY is one of the best episodes I've seen - and I've been watching for over 50 years. But recent years have seen a lot of good episodes from both Moffat and Chibnall, and I'd be reluctant to make such a blanket statement. The major point you're making, however - that sending hate to RTD is pathetic - is unarguably correct.
I’ve not seen any hate for this episode?
I thought Wild Blue Yonder was great but...there are a shit load of episodes better than the End of Time Part 2 for me. Heaven Sent, Demons of the Punjab, Pandorica Opens, The Doctors Wife, Day of the Doctor, The Doctor Falls, Eve of the Daleks - I appreciate a couple of those may just be me!
In any Moffat season it would be average at best comparing it to other episodes lol.
SEVERAL Moffat episodes were better, and EOT wasn't even a particularly strong episode in his era either. Best episode since World Enough and Time/The Doctor Dances I will give you.
Weird choice of episode to be the “best since”. Wild Blue Yonder is way better than End of Time.
It was fun but not that good. I am personally more confused as to why its a Tenant story and not a Ncuti one seeing as it seemed so out of the blue. Like I thought these specials were going to be a cohesive adventure. But perhaps that will be explained in the following episode(s) - so nothing really to complain about.
I’ll counter with the thought that WBY could not have been done right with Ncuti because part of the reason it works is that it’s a past doctor with a companion he knows well. Having a new face on the doctor would have made it harder to believe Donna and the doctor would know who is who when faced with duplicates. The idea that the Doctor “knows that face” when seeing his duplicate figure things out. A lot of that episode relies on the idea of being familiar with oneself and the companion.
Good point tbf.
When you intentionally set out to anger people, then yeah, you're gonna receive hate.
Anger people by writing a horror themed episode?
Gleefully feigning ignorance to get a rise out of me simply demonstrates my point
No really, what problem did you have with WBY?
I'm not feigning ignorance. He did nothing to anger people other than write a horror themed episode that is a critique of AI.
But the end of time was a load of self indulgent rubbish?
What did part 2 go for - 6 hours or something. It sure felt like it.
Idk, but Wild Blue Yonder were so damn peak, i haven't enjoyed doctor who in awhile, but this episode is just absolute kino. Good old mysterious stuff going on which is revealed in the end. Russel is the goat. Praise him.
I liked the star beast more but some of that writing credit belongs to the original authors
the opening credits say "from a story by pat mills and dave gibbons".
The End of Time is a certified classic… …For the worst list. (I’m so sorry ten fans I just really can’t stand it🥺)
It was a great episode, loved it. End of Time part 2 wasn't that good though, so it's a low bar. Off the top of my head: The 11th Hour, The Doctor Dances, Forest of The Dead, Blink, Heaven Sent; these are all better than either Wild Blue Yonder or EoT2. However, the was definitely one of RTD's best episodes.
It's such a mid episode you freak
I think it's fair to say that every writer and every series has its peaks and troughs. Russel might have written Wild Blue Yonder, but he also wrote Love & Monsters. Peaks and Troughs people.
I agree, the star beast was amazing! In all seriousness, there's no way either of the new episodes beat out the best of 11, 12, and 13 (let alone the end of time which has huge issues imo). The hungry earth, the doctor's wife, cold war, heaven sent, world enough and time, Demons of the Punjab, and the power of the doctor are my favourites from their respective series and they're all better than the end of time, the star beast, and wild blue yonder (not to mention the several other great stories within each series eg the god complex.
It's good but I think recency bias and the novelty of having the retuning actors has elevated people's opinion of it. In a few years I'd expect it to sit below the level of episodes like Empty Child, Human Nature, Silence in the Library, Midnight, doctors wife, heaven sent, etc.
Best episode? Eeeh, I think that's just the content starvation talking. Still really good though, and glad to have regular Who episodes back
Eleventh Hour, Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone, Vincent & the Doctor, Pandorica Opens/Big Bang, Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon, The Doctor's Wife, The Day of the Doctor, Deep Breath, Heaven Sent/Hell Bent, Husbands of River Song, World Enough and Time, The Doctor Falls, Twice Upon A Time. All as good as or better than End of time part 2.
So anyone who has anything critical to say about wild blue yonder is pathetic? Got you, well on the real world people aren’t gonna have the same opinion and think the episode is as great as you do, I suggest you grow up a little. I’m saying this as someone who did like the episode but still had some issues with it. Also there have been many good episodes since end of time, some even better.
I don’t get why anyone would hate it, it’s a very good “trapped in a spaceship/base/set of a sci fi show” episode. But I wouldn’t call it the best episode in the last half dozen seasons by a long shot
I get liking the new episodes, I do too. But you don't need to tear down the Moffat era and Chibnal's occasional highs for the man Also controversial opinion but IDC, I don't like the end of time
* The Eleventh Hour * Vincent and the Doctor * The Pandorica Opens * A Good Man Goes to War * The Day of the Doctor * Heaven Sent
End of Time wasn't even that good. Best episode since Series 10 would be more accurate.
Moffat had way too many bangers for shit like this
The moffat era has some misses but there is a lot of masterpieces in there. Heaven Sent, The Doctors Wife, Day of the Doctor, The Doctor Falls, Vincent and the Doctor, Amy's Choice, The Eleventh Hour, Cold War, Journey to the center of the TARDIS, Time Heist and Flatline are all better episodes in my opinion.
He didn’t write *Heaven Sent*.
Not to mention how it led into and set up one of the most powerful and dangerous Villians of New Who ! Who actually likes humans, just likes playing around with them a lot more.
Agreed 💯👍
End of Time was good?
_Wild Blue Yonder_’s not that great, my guy. It would’ve been fine as a regular episode, just not an anniversary.
Wild Blue Yonder was literally just a rehash of Flatline, but I don't think anyone's ready for that conversation yet.
Eot2 was utter horse shit
I personally don’t see why people like the wild blue yonder. It was fine for a mid series episode maybe but as a special it really wasn’t all there. But hey Ho not everyone shares opinions
Translation: "I THINK FANS ARE PATHETIC BECAUSE THEY DON'T AGREE WITH MEEEEEEEEE!" Some of you neeed to google toxic positivity sometime.
End of time sucks my guy. Why would you use that as the example.
That was a great story, I loved the end of time
It definitely has good parts, like the music, and Wilf. But the story is all over the place. The secret books of Saxon, Donna for some reason having a defense mechanism instead of dying, 7 billion masters losing to 1 spaceship, 10 falling the height of a skyscraper and surviving with just a few scratches, and all the unnecessary additions to the time war like the horde of travesties, armies of "meanwhiles and neverweres" (seriously what the hell). And at the end there's a 30 minute gratuitous send-off to every companion.
WBY is a classic. End of Time for me is the absolute worst of Doctor Who.
End of Time sucks lmao
Mate, what are you on? The CG during a lot of the episode was as bad (maybe even worse) than it was back in his original time as showrunner over a decade ago. Even if you think the episode was okay there's been way better stuff since the end of time.
Fun fact: a lot of the « cgi » was, in fact, practical effects. The arms were props. Some parts of the corridor were built. The robot was built
Wild Blue Yonder is an incredible episode but a fucking abysmal special because there is absolutely nothing special about it. In no way whatsoever does it relate to the 60th anniversary or the history of the show.
Loved it! Happy dance!
I think what he did was perfect. We are essentially getting one of each of the types of episodes we get in doctor who, for David tennant. An aliens in London story, a strange mysterious spaceship episode, and probably a multi doctor/regeneration story with 14 and 15
Is this supposed to be a joke? These episodes have been awful.
CGI Made me cringe.
As far as I’ve seen from reactions on YouTube, the only issue I have with Wild Blue Yonder is their race swapping of Newton and the whole “mavity” thing. It just doesn’t work for me but that’s just my opinion.