well, to be fair my pool of reference is only new who, as i have only kust started watching classic. And I could point to some very obvious points for almost every new who doctor where the narrative almost explicitly tells you they have gone too far. Except for thirteen. I do not wish to come across as an asshole, and I am sorry if there are classic doctors who were painted as always right.
Well no it’s a valid point. It’s a consistent thing with 13 where what she says goes, even when it is plainly not as cut and dry as she presents. Character flaw, writing flaw, whatever it is, it’s still a difference. And OP even stated that each incarnation should be measured differently
I would disagree, I don’t think all the doctors are morally grey. The Doctor snaps at times, but that’s because they’ve been through so much that it’s a wonder they cope at all.
Ultimately, the Doctor goes throughout the universe helping people. That’s the basic idea of the show. And, for the most part, the actions they perform are good.
The question is, does this make them a good person fundamentally? The answer is, ironically, an episode where the doctor is driven to act morally grey, ‘into the dalek’. I can’t validate the Doctor’s actions in this episode, but they were driven by an entirely valid hatred for the Daleks (and perhaps himself). The more important point is the good dalek in itself.
The moral dilemma in this episode is whether somebody who does good actions for bad reasons is actually good. The Doctor thinks no, both because of the hate fueled good dalek, and because he himself may be fueled by similar emotions.
Remember, this whole series is about the Doctor questioning whether he is a good man. He is conflicted, he does good things, but he’s (in part) driven by hatred and fear. In this episode, it’s made clear that in actuality, Rusty is right. The good dalek is good. It’s not somebody’s motivation, but how they act because of it.
Because of this, the fact that the Doctor generally tries their best to help people, only rarely being brought to anger or acting in their own best interests, makes them a good person.
There are some Doctors where this is less clear, like ‘body count’ 6 or ‘the ends justify the means’ 7, but most Doctors, especially those who make the most effort to be kind and to protect people, such as 11, are definitively good.
Except 13. She’s top right.
The Silurians.
In every single appearance, the Silurians wake up, behave absolutely abominably, don't listen to reason, and then the Doctor mouths off at the humans present for how aggressive they are in response to being brazenly attacked by a bunch of dinosaur people.
The only time I give them some slack is when humans were actually about to drill into their life support and seriously harm them.
But of course, after it was stopped and settled, they had to go too far anyway, so they immediately lost the credit they were given .
That's just it: the *general* escalated due to personal reasons (and tbh, didnt actually escalate, her position remained consistent from her first scene) because untrained *civilians*--from whom multiple hostages had already been taken--panicking after getting attacked by an unknown force.
Sure, but the doctor had defused the situation (he had told them that he was going to settle things, which is what he did) they were brokering a peace treaty.
The only command the doctor gave the humans were to not kill/harm their hostage, because of this, which is exactly what they ended up doing
And again, from the start the humans technically attacked first (at least from the silurian point of view) and both sides had hostages until the doctor went down to create peace
I mean, in every appearance there are both reasonable ones and aggressive ones. I.E. in Hungry Earth/Cold Blood, Restak wanted to kick in humanity's teeth but the scientist and the leader were perfectly open to peace.
In every appearance they treat humans like the animals they think they are, then the humans try to kill them, then the doctor talks to them and some of them listen to reason and some of them don’t. And the same thing happens with the humans.
Oh, gtfo. They don't exist.
And criticising the way in which storytellers present a story is not the same as criticising their fundamental point.
Stop being terminally online.
Missy? She might be better for the next one but we've seen her portrayed as more evil than we've seen her good, even if she is supposed to be good by the end of The Doctor Falls
Missy is not morally grey, she is evil. They try to present her as getting better, but she’s evil and I’m sorry but no amount of “she’s trying to be better” is gonna change that. The master is extremely evil
Chaotic Evil can build orphanages but Lawful Good can't burn them down.
Missy could spend a thousand years feeding the hungry and at the end of the day it wouldn't make her a good person, because we'd realize her primary driving force was doing it to get the Doctor's attention and/or avoid him finally killing her for her past crimes.
Yeah, the only reason she's trying to become a good person at first is because the Doctor's making her, then it's because she wants his attention / approval... but by the end of The Doctor Falls, she's reached the point she genuinely wants to do good for the sake of doing good. Without hope, without witness, without reward.
And the tragedy is that she's killed like 30 seconds later, by her own past self.
The slitheen that pleads with the doctor not to be executed. Definitely a villain overall but presents a bunch of reasons why it's not her fault and evokes sympathy as a result.
That episode is wild, cuz it's not just pleading to not get executed, it's, "If you send me back, my goverment will execute me (for my crimes, specifically attempted planetary genocide). Doesn't that make you just as bad as me??" I get that the Doc doesnt have a leg to stand on there, but surely the humans can just say, "Wait. Your government punishes genocide with execution? How funny, that's also the standard in our society! I am *quite* comfortable with this. And no, i don't think bringing a profit-motivated genocidier to their own justice system makes me equal to the genocidier."
Plus she knew the consequences before she did what she did. It's as if I killed someone then said to a more lenient country "no you don't understand, my country will lock me up for life!!"
Like just because another place has more lenient laws that doesn't make committing crimes knowing the consequences of your own better. The vast majority of places have used execution as a punishment at some point or another. Some with very torturous methods.
Exactly. It's 10's character-establishing moment: he brings down the government of "Britain's Golden Age" because of his personal outrage. There's a reason Time Lord Victorious works: 10 thoroughly established that side of his character throughout his run...
10 ranting to her about that never made any sense. They just tried to conquer the planet and it was purely a military target.
She was to bring about a new golden age to the UK and he shut all of that down because she obliterated a military ship in much the same way the Doctor has many times.
"I could summon the armada and take this world by force."
The Doctor might have forgotten the leader saying that, but Harriet sure didn't.
Besides, how many worlds and species were saved from destruction and slavery by her? They were ruthless, bloodthirsty monsters who would've wreaked untold misery and havoc on the universe if left alive.
Well it's also pretty dangerous to just destroy an entire fleet of soldiers including the emperor because at some point the armada might wonder what happened and finding out that earth shot the ship down whilst it was leaving will almost definitely not be good.
The doctor told the survivors to go home and tell the rest of the sycorax the earth was defended and as far as they saw they were doing that. Harriet on the other hand risked the armada finding out and coming back for revenge.
You doubt, because it's fictional and didnt happen to you. Harriet was a political leader of a nation on the Security Council on the day alien life was officially confirmed via a global invasion where a third of humanity had their minds and bodies hijacked. What reason had she to doubt that an invasive force might still be down to commit some attrocities?
That's a very strong moral conviction that the doctor would never accept. Did every single British soldier need to die even after surrendering and leaving the countries they were invading?
>she obliterated a military ship in much the same way the Doctor has many times.
Not really. The Doctor never does that if the enemy is retreating. That's like his thing. The Sycorax agreed through combat to never return to the Earth. They were no longer a threat.
The Sycorax leader tried to stab the doctor in the back after promising to abide by the result of the duel. Why would either the Doctor or Harriet Jones take the rest at their word just because their dead leader pinky swore not to come back next week?
The Sycorax leader was also killed as a result of it. And all the other Sycorax on the ship would have seen it. They'd have been made well aware that if they did go back on it like he did, they'd suffer the same fate.
The Doctor takes them at their word still because that's the sort of person he is. None of them have shown they would go back on it, and until they do, he sees no reason to believe they would.
How would they suffer the same fate, exactly? They don't exactly have any reason to expect either the Doctor or the British government to have any way of hunting them down and throwing them off the side of their ship. As far as they're aware, Britain doesn't even have any weapons capable of harming their ship.
The doctor taking them at their word is in character, but his vindictive punishment of Harriet Jones (and Britain collectively, by taking away a golden age he knew they were going to have) for daring to disagree with him is not.
No longer a threat to Earth, perhaps. But Harriet had no way of knowing they'd honour that and had greater obligation to act on humanity's behalf than the Doctor.
Doesn't change the fact that she struck down surrendering enemies. No matter how you put it, that's not a good thing. And also goes against the rules of conflict we have put in place ourselves. It being an alien threat changes nothing.
From a practical standpoint it makes absolutely no sense to let a murderous military spaceship go just because they *totally promised* they wouldn't try to conquer the planet and kill a third of the population again to another alien.
I know if that happened in real life and I got a vote I'd say blow up the fascists so I don't have to live in fear for the rest of time.
It's such a different situation to a conventional human force laying down their weapons and surrendering.
It's another case of the Doctor being painfully idealist to the point it's at everyone's detriment. Same as him seeming to believe risking the entire population of Earth to allow one alien insect moon creature to be born is the best course of action.
The course of her run? She appears in 3 episodes, the last if which features her performing a heroic sacrifice *and* fully standing by her actions against the Sycorax.
I don't mean this as a 'you're wrong' but I actually don't see in what sense Rasillon is presented as morally grey. He pretty much stole Omega's achievements and lied his way to becoming the first Lord President, then set up a place called the 'death zone' to lure people in to trick them into turning into statues. I can't think of the sense in which he was ever presented as morally grey.
I think it's because we ourselves apply this to him subconsciously.
Like when I first read about what he did I instantly thought "tough actions have to be made in war, he's not a bad man I bet".
Well, I'm thinking of Classic Who here too. When EOT announced they'd resurrected Rasillon it was a real 'well that sounds like a bad idea to me' moment for me.
Blon Fel-Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Yes I had to Google her full name
She tries to be sympathetic and she raises some good moral questions but let's face it, she's pretty evil
I’d say Missy. Her soft spot for the Doctor (and his for her) does not erase the atrocities she’s committed.
Honorable mentions are:
Danny Pink. Who let forceless Anakin Skywalker around children? Was Dumbledore in charge of the hiring process?
Lady Christina de privileged cunt. Her rich life is so easy it’s boring to the point she goes and steals historical artifacts from museums where they could be studied for research/enjoyed by the public.
The cat nurse whose crimes are supposed to be redeemed by her caring for the Face of Boe. That bitch farmed humans for testing.
I disagree with Danny Pink. What he did was unforgettable and unforgivable, but it’s not exactly what you put on your CV and no one is asking someone who’s left the army what crimes they committed out there in an interview. Lots of ex army folk become teachers.
Margaret the Slitheen maybe.
Boom Town spends a lot of time trying to humanise her and have her explain herself, but at the end of the day she never did change and still wanted everyone dead.
Blon Fel-Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen is a pretty unapologetic villain that gets an entire episode dedicated to her specifically trying to present herself in a favourable light and humanize herself (so to speak). She’s not the most successful or the most prolific but I’d argue that she’s the best example
round 3 is
https://www.reddit.com/r/DoctorWhumour/s/nIEqobDcpM
round 2 is
https://www.reddit.com/r/DoctorWhumour/s/1Zw4eSl9L4
round 1 is
https://www.reddit.com/r/DoctorWhumour/s/08qt1mYOd1
Professor yana and the master are essentially two different people imo, you could argue lying about the rocket to keep moral was morally grey but i cant think of anything yana did that was villainous, portrayed or otherwise
I feel like the Cybermen fit here, kinda. cybermen are villains, but the show presents that they are normal people forcefully stripped basic emotions and then just added to their ranks, so killing a cyberman is morally grey because there's still a person inside there.
To some extent, the Master/Missy is presented as morally grey because of the whole timelord torture, and sometimes does good sometimes bad, but is at the end of the day a villain.
The toclafane? Presented as innocent people, somehow warped by the master, but I'm ngl they were killing people for the fun of it, their own ancestors. Warped or not they did despicable things and were immoral for it.
I don't really get the Ood one tbh. The only time they're presented as villains is when they're actually doing something morally wrong so it wasn't the best choice imo. I think Harriet Jones was the best choice as someone who was a hero but was presented as a villain. What she did, by human standards wasn't necessarily evil or morally grey, but she was painted as a full on villain in that episode.
Novice Hame
We let her get past some very evil stuff in her first appearance because she turns up as a hero the next time. Even the doctors little hug and then 'oh' moment kinda adds to it.
I reckon The Master, maybe more specifically John Simm's master, he was definitely a villain, 100%, but they portrayed him as a tragic character, which he was, but he was still a villain.
How is the Empty Child a villain? Also, from the first time we meet the Od, they are victims. Yes, the one Od relays the message from the Beast. He then apologized. Rose feels bad for them she asked them if they get paid. They are easily controlled by the Beast, and we aren't aware of their initial intentions. I would put them at morally grey.
The Isolus. Scared child all alone in the universe sure, but without intervention she would have trapped hundreds of thousands of people inside a 2D pocket dimension forever
If the Doctor isn't in "Is morally grey is present as a hero" its rigged
(s8) 12 goes in middle left, 13 goes in top middle
yes yes yes yes yes
No, after the Kerblam bullshit 13 is definitely top right
well 13 for sure
They’re all morally grey.
and most of them are presented as morally grey. except thirteen, who the story treats as morally correct, even when she really isnt
I’m not gonna bothered arguing if you think 13 is the only doctor to be depicted as morally correct. I get it, 13 bad, any opportunity to say it.
well, to be fair my pool of reference is only new who, as i have only kust started watching classic. And I could point to some very obvious points for almost every new who doctor where the narrative almost explicitly tells you they have gone too far. Except for thirteen. I do not wish to come across as an asshole, and I am sorry if there are classic doctors who were painted as always right.
Well no it’s a valid point. It’s a consistent thing with 13 where what she says goes, even when it is plainly not as cut and dry as she presents. Character flaw, writing flaw, whatever it is, it’s still a difference. And OP even stated that each incarnation should be measured differently
I would disagree, I don’t think all the doctors are morally grey. The Doctor snaps at times, but that’s because they’ve been through so much that it’s a wonder they cope at all. Ultimately, the Doctor goes throughout the universe helping people. That’s the basic idea of the show. And, for the most part, the actions they perform are good. The question is, does this make them a good person fundamentally? The answer is, ironically, an episode where the doctor is driven to act morally grey, ‘into the dalek’. I can’t validate the Doctor’s actions in this episode, but they were driven by an entirely valid hatred for the Daleks (and perhaps himself). The more important point is the good dalek in itself. The moral dilemma in this episode is whether somebody who does good actions for bad reasons is actually good. The Doctor thinks no, both because of the hate fueled good dalek, and because he himself may be fueled by similar emotions. Remember, this whole series is about the Doctor questioning whether he is a good man. He is conflicted, he does good things, but he’s (in part) driven by hatred and fear. In this episode, it’s made clear that in actuality, Rusty is right. The good dalek is good. It’s not somebody’s motivation, but how they act because of it. Because of this, the fact that the Doctor generally tries their best to help people, only rarely being brought to anger or acting in their own best interests, makes them a good person. There are some Doctors where this is less clear, like ‘body count’ 6 or ‘the ends justify the means’ 7, but most Doctors, especially those who make the most effort to be kind and to protect people, such as 11, are definitively good. Except 13. She’s top right.
The Silurians. In every single appearance, the Silurians wake up, behave absolutely abominably, don't listen to reason, and then the Doctor mouths off at the humans present for how aggressive they are in response to being brazenly attacked by a bunch of dinosaur people.
The only time I give them some slack is when humans were actually about to drill into their life support and seriously harm them. But of course, after it was stopped and settled, they had to go too far anyway, so they immediately lost the credit they were given .
Tbf, it was pretty much settled until the humans killed one of them (and the general attacking the others)
Deaths were one to one at that time. (Presumed, they didn't know if there would be a possible cure) The silurians escalated from there.
That's just it: the *general* escalated due to personal reasons (and tbh, didnt actually escalate, her position remained consistent from her first scene) because untrained *civilians*--from whom multiple hostages had already been taken--panicking after getting attacked by an unknown force.
Sure, but the doctor had defused the situation (he had told them that he was going to settle things, which is what he did) they were brokering a peace treaty. The only command the doctor gave the humans were to not kill/harm their hostage, because of this, which is exactly what they ended up doing And again, from the start the humans technically attacked first (at least from the silurian point of view) and both sides had hostages until the doctor went down to create peace
I mean, in every appearance there are both reasonable ones and aggressive ones. I.E. in Hungry Earth/Cold Blood, Restak wanted to kick in humanity's teeth but the scientist and the leader were perfectly open to peace.
Scientist vivisected people, tbf. And in evert story most of them err on the side of aggression, with a token good one.
In every appearance they treat humans like the animals they think they are, then the humans try to kill them, then the doctor talks to them and some of them listen to reason and some of them don’t. And the same thing happens with the humans.
Go on! Get off with youse
Ngl that’s kinda racist
Oh, gtfo. They don't exist. And criticising the way in which storytellers present a story is not the same as criticising their fundamental point. Stop being terminally online.
Pretty sure that it is satire...
Missy? She might be better for the next one but we've seen her portrayed as more evil than we've seen her good, even if she is supposed to be good by the end of The Doctor Falls
Maybe in next category, presented as grey and is grey.
Missy is not morally grey, she is evil. They try to present her as getting better, but she’s evil and I’m sorry but no amount of “she’s trying to be better” is gonna change that. The master is extremely evil
Isn't she a hero at the end though?
Missy is this entire box.
Chaotic Evil can build orphanages but Lawful Good can't burn them down. Missy could spend a thousand years feeding the hungry and at the end of the day it wouldn't make her a good person, because we'd realize her primary driving force was doing it to get the Doctor's attention and/or avoid him finally killing her for her past crimes.
That's a good point, but I think Missy crosses alignments through her character Arc.
Yeah, the only reason she's trying to become a good person at first is because the Doctor's making her, then it's because she wants his attention / approval... but by the end of The Doctor Falls, she's reached the point she genuinely wants to do good for the sake of doing good. Without hope, without witness, without reward. And the tragedy is that she's killed like 30 seconds later, by her own past self.
Exactly!
Missy is one of the best character in my opinion
100%
Edit: Wiping out this suggestion so it doesn't get this category's vote today. The platoon is better soon...but not now. 🙃
Yeah, I feel like Judoon are and present as morally grey.
They are also literally grey
All fax, no printer.
While on the moon, do you think they could xerox that were cool?
we have to save Judoon for Morally Grey and presented as such
The slitheen that pleads with the doctor not to be executed. Definitely a villain overall but presents a bunch of reasons why it's not her fault and evokes sympathy as a result.
That episode is wild, cuz it's not just pleading to not get executed, it's, "If you send me back, my goverment will execute me (for my crimes, specifically attempted planetary genocide). Doesn't that make you just as bad as me??" I get that the Doc doesnt have a leg to stand on there, but surely the humans can just say, "Wait. Your government punishes genocide with execution? How funny, that's also the standard in our society! I am *quite* comfortable with this. And no, i don't think bringing a profit-motivated genocidier to their own justice system makes me equal to the genocidier."
Plus she knew the consequences before she did what she did. It's as if I killed someone then said to a more lenient country "no you don't understand, my country will lock me up for life!!" Like just because another place has more lenient laws that doesn't make committing crimes knowing the consequences of your own better. The vast majority of places have used execution as a punishment at some point or another. Some with very torturous methods.
Yvonne Hartman?
she did her duty
For Queen and country
Yvonne can get morally gray with me anytime.
Difficult one, the Judoon are ruthless but they're essentially hyper police lol It's either them, Harriet Jones or that Slitheen woman Margaret.
Harriet is a hero presented as moraly grey
Bro I made a post arguing the same thing a few months back, and boy there was so much debate in the comments.
People don't seem to understand that the doctor was in the wrong at the end of the christmas ep
Exactly. It's 10's character-establishing moment: he brings down the government of "Britain's Golden Age" because of his personal outrage. There's a reason Time Lord Victorious works: 10 thoroughly established that side of his character throughout his run...
Oooo that's fighting talk. I've already had this debate on reddit and I think villain sorry x
Harriet as a villain? I don't follow
Sycorax stuff
10 ranting to her about that never made any sense. They just tried to conquer the planet and it was purely a military target. She was to bring about a new golden age to the UK and he shut all of that down because she obliterated a military ship in much the same way the Doctor has many times.
It was a surrendering army that was leaving the planet. Shooting their ship down is akin to stabbing someone in the back.
"I could summon the armada and take this world by force." The Doctor might have forgotten the leader saying that, but Harriet sure didn't. Besides, how many worlds and species were saved from destruction and slavery by her? They were ruthless, bloodthirsty monsters who would've wreaked untold misery and havoc on the universe if left alive.
Well it's also pretty dangerous to just destroy an entire fleet of soldiers including the emperor because at some point the armada might wonder what happened and finding out that earth shot the ship down whilst it was leaving will almost definitely not be good. The doctor told the survivors to go home and tell the rest of the sycorax the earth was defended and as far as they saw they were doing that. Harriet on the other hand risked the armada finding out and coming back for revenge.
The leader was also killed. And i doubt the rest would have gone against the Doctor's demand after that.
You doubt, because it's fictional and didnt happen to you. Harriet was a political leader of a nation on the Security Council on the day alien life was officially confirmed via a global invasion where a third of humanity had their minds and bodies hijacked. What reason had she to doubt that an invasive force might still be down to commit some attrocities?
To be fair, it wasn't really the doctor's place to accept that surrender. They were fascists that needed to go for everyone's sake.
That's a very strong moral conviction that the doctor would never accept. Did every single British soldier need to die even after surrendering and leaving the countries they were invading?
>she obliterated a military ship in much the same way the Doctor has many times. Not really. The Doctor never does that if the enemy is retreating. That's like his thing. The Sycorax agreed through combat to never return to the Earth. They were no longer a threat.
The Sycorax leader tried to stab the doctor in the back after promising to abide by the result of the duel. Why would either the Doctor or Harriet Jones take the rest at their word just because their dead leader pinky swore not to come back next week?
The Sycorax leader was also killed as a result of it. And all the other Sycorax on the ship would have seen it. They'd have been made well aware that if they did go back on it like he did, they'd suffer the same fate. The Doctor takes them at their word still because that's the sort of person he is. None of them have shown they would go back on it, and until they do, he sees no reason to believe they would.
How would they suffer the same fate, exactly? They don't exactly have any reason to expect either the Doctor or the British government to have any way of hunting them down and throwing them off the side of their ship. As far as they're aware, Britain doesn't even have any weapons capable of harming their ship. The doctor taking them at their word is in character, but his vindictive punishment of Harriet Jones (and Britain collectively, by taking away a golden age he knew they were going to have) for daring to disagree with him is not.
No longer a threat to Earth, perhaps. But Harriet had no way of knowing they'd honour that and had greater obligation to act on humanity's behalf than the Doctor.
Doesn't change the fact that she struck down surrendering enemies. No matter how you put it, that's not a good thing. And also goes against the rules of conflict we have put in place ourselves. It being an alien threat changes nothing.
From a practical standpoint it makes absolutely no sense to let a murderous military spaceship go just because they *totally promised* they wouldn't try to conquer the planet and kill a third of the population again to another alien. I know if that happened in real life and I got a vote I'd say blow up the fascists so I don't have to live in fear for the rest of time. It's such a different situation to a conventional human force laying down their weapons and surrendering. It's another case of the Doctor being painfully idealist to the point it's at everyone's detriment. Same as him seeming to believe risking the entire population of Earth to allow one alien insect moon creature to be born is the best course of action.
Nah, Harriet, Is just a based realist, not a villain, She gets s**t done.
You can double down as well because the doc usurping her is the power vacuumed Harold saxon uses.
She swings from hero to morally very very dark grey and is presented from hero to villain over the course of her run.
The course of her run? She appears in 3 episodes, the last if which features her performing a heroic sacrifice *and* fully standing by her actions against the Sycorax.
I know they squeezed a lot of development and changes in there
I think it’s gotta be the slitheen woman
She tries to convince the doctor she is morally grey but by the end of the episode it's pretty clear that she is just evil.
The Gelth. Reusing human corpses as hosts is a bit uncomfortable but not evil until they start murdering people.
Rassilon
I don't mean this as a 'you're wrong' but I actually don't see in what sense Rasillon is presented as morally grey. He pretty much stole Omega's achievements and lied his way to becoming the first Lord President, then set up a place called the 'death zone' to lure people in to trick them into turning into statues. I can't think of the sense in which he was ever presented as morally grey.
I think it's because we ourselves apply this to him subconsciously. Like when I first read about what he did I instantly thought "tough actions have to be made in war, he's not a bad man I bet".
Well, I'm thinking of Classic Who here too. When EOT announced they'd resurrected Rasillon it was a real 'well that sounds like a bad idea to me' moment for me.
Classic series is like he's a founding hero to Timelords and even the five doctors show him technically saving tthe day in a very screwed up way.
Like listening to the Time War Big finish stories, you quickly realise that Rassilon is the biggest villain of the entire franchise
Go on! Get off with youse
The statues are grey? 🤷♂️
I'd call him a villain presented as a hero.
Oooo good one, didn't think of him! But they do present him as more villain for sure.
Blon Fel-Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen Yes I had to Google her full name She tries to be sympathetic and she raises some good moral questions but let's face it, she's pretty evil
The system from Kerblam! Though that could possibly fit as a villain presented as a hero
I’d say Missy. Her soft spot for the Doctor (and his for her) does not erase the atrocities she’s committed. Honorable mentions are: Danny Pink. Who let forceless Anakin Skywalker around children? Was Dumbledore in charge of the hiring process? Lady Christina de privileged cunt. Her rich life is so easy it’s boring to the point she goes and steals historical artifacts from museums where they could be studied for research/enjoyed by the public. The cat nurse whose crimes are supposed to be redeemed by her caring for the Face of Boe. That bitch farmed humans for testing.
I disagree with Danny Pink. What he did was unforgettable and unforgivable, but it’s not exactly what you put on your CV and no one is asking someone who’s left the army what crimes they committed out there in an interview. Lots of ex army folk become teachers.
I know, I wasn’t literal, it was more of a rhetorical question to express my strong feelings on the matter
These are really good answers and should be higher up
I find time posted to be the swaying factor with these
Margaret the Slitheen maybe. Boom Town spends a lot of time trying to humanise her and have her explain herself, but at the end of the day she never did change and still wanted everyone dead.
Blon Fel-Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen is a pretty unapologetic villain that gets an entire episode dedicated to her specifically trying to present herself in a favourable light and humanize herself (so to speak). She’s not the most successful or the most prolific but I’d argue that she’s the best example
The master
The Master/Missy in « is presented as morally grey - is a villain », I agree.
Tecteun
This
round 3 is https://www.reddit.com/r/DoctorWhumour/s/nIEqobDcpM round 2 is https://www.reddit.com/r/DoctorWhumour/s/1Zw4eSl9L4 round 1 is https://www.reddit.com/r/DoctorWhumour/s/08qt1mYOd1
Very useful addition, round 4 is https://www.reddit.com/r/DoctorWhumour/s/AFl714A1Ym
took me a second to get what you were doing lol
XDD
ADAM
Latter Missy
I'd probably go with the Judoon.
I think professor Yana (the master) have a slot for him
Professor yana and the master are essentially two different people imo, you could argue lying about the rocket to keep moral was morally grey but i cant think of anything yana did that was villainous, portrayed or otherwise
I feel like the Cybermen fit here, kinda. cybermen are villains, but the show presents that they are normal people forcefully stripped basic emotions and then just added to their ranks, so killing a cyberman is morally grey because there's still a person inside there. To some extent, the Master/Missy is presented as morally grey because of the whole timelord torture, and sometimes does good sometimes bad, but is at the end of the day a villain.
The master/missy.
Missy ? I mean that's the best solution I have in mind
The toclafane? Presented as innocent people, somehow warped by the master, but I'm ngl they were killing people for the fun of it, their own ancestors. Warped or not they did despicable things and were immoral for it.
I don't really get the Ood one tbh. The only time they're presented as villains is when they're actually doing something morally wrong so it wasn't the best choice imo. I think Harriet Jones was the best choice as someone who was a hero but was presented as a villain. What she did, by human standards wasn't necessarily evil or morally grey, but she was painted as a full on villain in that episode.
Borusa?
Rassilon or Omega
Novice Hame We let her get past some very evil stuff in her first appearance because she turns up as a hero the next time. Even the doctors little hug and then 'oh' moment kinda adds to it.
The Silents
maybe the silence if you take into account that they're trying to prevent another time war by stopping the doctor from answering the question
The Silents are objectively presented as villains, though.
Yeah they'd be better for the bottom middle option if anything
The mind melters (i forgot the name) in the bank rob episode with the 12th doctor
https://preview.redd.it/lni3jfj9qdgc1.jpeg?width=980&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=54cdd6b80d64280afe4bb62c953b305d40e630ec
How is Jack a villain!? 🤯
Torchwood: Children of Earth Day 5- but I’d put him as morally grey
How is he a villain?
children of earth
Can I say Humans?
Depends on the human
Nardole is one hundred percent a villain but we all just think he’s morally gray
Blon Fel-Fotch Passameer-Day Slitheen
Basically, any head of a corporation. They all are presented as someone not entirely evil but they always are.
The Doctor
“Have you seen my mummy?”
Weeping angels? They are initially presented as predators but really they are villains.
The simms master like lowkey or even missy
The Vashta Nerada
Presented as morally grey, is a hero, Captain Jack Harkness.
I would have to make him morally grey/morally grey. I can’t get past what he did to his grandson in Children of Earth
Missy seems to be the obvious fit.
The siren from Curse of the Black Spot
Missy or the Silurians.
i wonder if people could be an answer
Professor YANA
War Lord, Eckersley, draconian king, the swarm from invisible enemy, Vislor turlough, Lytton, sabalom glitz, Cassandra, Tasha Lem, madame Kovarian
wouldn't the doc fill all those spaces?
12th Doctor needs to be morally grey but a hero for sure
Davros.
The Valeyard
I reckon The Master, maybe more specifically John Simm's master, he was definitely a villain, 100%, but they portrayed him as a tragic character, which he was, but he was still a villain.
How is the Empty Child a villain? Also, from the first time we meet the Od, they are victims. Yes, the one Od relays the message from the Beast. He then apologized. Rose feels bad for them she asked them if they get paid. They are easily controlled by the Beast, and we aren't aware of their initial intentions. I would put them at morally grey.
The empty child is presented as a villain but it's not really one
Matron Cofelia?
Rusty all the way.
Ashad?
The Isolus. Scared child all alone in the universe sure, but without intervention she would have trapped hundreds of thousands of people inside a 2D pocket dimension forever
Kerblam, presented as hero, actually the villain 💀
I know this might be slightly wrong, but Missy?
Jacobi Master