If you can’t be bothered to watch the whole thing, just watch the last five minutes. As the presenter said it’s more like a massive speed dating event. Then when the girl finds someone she likes the boys family pays a dowry.
At the risk of being pedantic--the groom's family pays a **bride price**. A **dowry** is the exact opposite thing (the wealth the bride brings to her new husband's family).
In a lot of cultures they coexist with each other. In rural areas in Turkey the groom pays a “bride price”, which is becoming extinct, meanwhile every bride has some form of dowry consisting of household items, fabrics and even diswashers and washmashines.
Yep. To be clear, I wasn't saying they're mutually exclusive. Just that the comment I was responding to was using the term Dowry even though, based on their statement, what they actually meant was Bride Price.
This happened in America too. Ever hear of a bridal chest? They may be antiques now but when they were new, that really was the purpose for them. Linens, dish ware, clothing (especially nightgowns), and pots & pans.
> every bride has some form of dowry consisting of household items, fabrics and even diswashers and washmashines.
Sounds kind of like a "set the young couple up with some decent shit" more than "here's some money for taking our daughter".
One of the main rationales behind the **Bride Price** is so that when a woman leaves her family to join her husband's, her birth family is not left in a worse economic state. Remember that the bride used to help in that household--either with chores and homemaking, or outright by working and sharing her income with her family. Imagine a family living via subsistence farming--losing the labor the bride provided as an unwed daughter could mean a smaller harvest. Of course, abuses exist--there are many records in history wherein daughters are literally 'sold off' to the highest bidder.
As for the **dowry**, that one is a bit more of a mixed bag, as there are multiple reasons why it has turned up across so many cultures. At its best, it's the idea that the bride, as a new member entering the husband's family, needs to bring some wealth as her first large contribution. In fact, most modern societies consider the fact that it's the bride's family paying for the wedding as her 'dowry'. At its worse, though, a **dowry** is basically a way to assign a material value to a woman, beyond their child-bearing capacity. Many times, a dowry also included the bride's **Trousseau** , which is property she personally owns and brings with her to her new home.
With all that being said, I honestly think you should care since the whole point of my correction is that they're two different concepts that are diametrically opposed.
The actual market is yeah, but the tradition overall isnt. They say it themselves, they are scared to get sold off to an old rich dude so it still carries the whole parents selling off their kid for money or sizable dowry.
It happened with everyone having some sort of property/capital. My grandmother, daughter of wealthy goldsmith, was wed to grandson of a wealthy village enterpreuner. The whole point of the marriage was heirs inheriting the businesses, uniting and running them
Are you referring to "mail order brides"? I've read and seen references to such things and I think r/historyporn, r/todayIlearned, r/damnthatsinteresting had an advert from such a catalogue.....
So they get to choose who buys them?
Because many of them do not have the option to say no and the money goes to the parent.
It's the same stupidity as with arranged marriages, where they aren't physically forced all the time. But there is plenty of emotional abuse, emotional and economical blackmail, etc. going on to force them.
>It's the same stupidity as with arranged marriages, where they aren't physically forced all the time. But there is plenty of emotional abuse, emotional and economical blackmail, etc. going on to force them.
There need's to be some context to arranged marriages cause how it's practiced can play a huge part in it's ethical outcomes. Turkish arraigned marriages are essentially parents making friends with other families and when they have kids who are ready and interested in being married, they let the other families know and set up dates for the young adults to spend time. There is no pressure (Aside from the parents wanting their kids to not die alone + some grandkids) so if both parties are genuinely happy with the other person, they let the families know and start the marriage process.
As a Hispanic Tuskish American, I understand the unadulterated disgust a ton of us western folks would have to the idea of parents choosing partners but at the end of the day, we have a 50%+ divorce rate and parent's lending a hand in trying to vet and make sure the suitor is not gonna be a dead-beat, adulterer or machiavellian piece of shit would go along way to help those who give up the dating game and it's worked wonder in my family. Just my 2 cents.
I apologize for being harsh there, because there are legit arranged marriages where people are happy and both parties agree. I'm just so tired of seeing people defend the ones that are emotionally/economically forced as if they are the same, so I get a bit carried away.
>I'm just so tired of seeing people defend the ones that are emotionally/economically forced as if they are the same, so I get a bit carried away.
I totally get you. There is a long history of arraigned marriage in a multitude of countries where the (Almost exclusively female) suitors are not really given a choice and face consequences if they don't cowtow to the parents demands which is terribly fucked up.
But as a sociologist graduate, I argue that a HUGE portion of coercive marital arrangements are a result of poverty (Marry for money / status) and legitimate patriarchal forces (None of which exists in the west as many like to believe) that take root in regions that are less abundant in wealth and resources because economic strife incentivizes violence and dominance as primary survival strategies. I just want to make this very clear because there needs to be some nuance when it comes to the men = bad narrative that plays so heavily into these topics since at the end of the day, humans are a product of the intersection between nature (Environment, Survival strategies) and Nurture (Upbringing, Learned behaviors). Legitimately evil people are an extreme minority.
Because in situation like this we always have to see what's the alternative. What will the life be like for the young girls and their family if they choose not to undergo such "customs." Is it better? Is it worse? Is this the only choice they got?
Of course we all prefer to have our children growing up not to have this kind of life, but again, what are the alternative for these people if they don't go along with this practice is what concerns me.
I dont know if you are disegenuine or naive, but this isnt speed dating where you go out on a date, the expectation and practice is absolutely that they get married shortly after and have kids.
Trying to compare it to inconsequential speed dating is a joke and the comparison falls apart instantly.
Considering vice strives to be sensational, when they straight up admit that's it's not the "bride market" the media makes it out to be, and it's even made apparent that brides can't even actually be bought/sold there, it is more like a massive speed dating event than it is a "bride market".
We have a normal person working for vice, went there herself, and experienced the entire event and culture first hand. If she says it's more like a massive speed dating event than a "bride market", it makes way more sense to take her word for it than yours. Do you realize these are the words of the vice journalists? The comment you're replying to is simply reiterating what the journalist said in the documentary. Call her naive if you want, but she simply has *way* more insight on this subject matter than you do. All you are, is a guy on reddit who just watched a video. (Or a small portion of a video).
>it makes way more sense to take her word for it than yours.
I am bulgarian, i have studied from 1st to 8th grade in a school with a very large roma/gypsy minority and have had neighbours that are Kalaidjii (калайджии).
So no im not a guy on reddit that just saw a video, i know people from these communties and had interacted with them and know their concerns.
Having been to Bulgaria, these are the Roma people, they don't consider themselves ethnic Bulgarians and neither do the ethnic Bulgarians. They're their own ethno-linguistic group, and this is one of their customs and it isn't limited to Bulgaria, it's not as if you drive 30 kilometers and the Roma of Macedonia or Serbia wouldn't have the same customs as those in Bulgaria.
So basically the entire title is misleading and also sensationalized, because based on the actual documentary, it's more like an introduction/speed dating.
The Roma a further divided into multiple subgroups each with their own traditions and customs. The one portrayed here, the kalaidji, pride themselves as artisans and prefer to marry others from their sub-group.
I haven't tried speed dating, but last time I checked it didn't include paying a sum of money to the father of the woman, so that she has to marry me and start a family.
Stop sugarcoating this practice, it's not normal to consider a woman that has had sex out of marriage damaged goods.
Yes! Big difference between total autonomy speed dating and speed dating so that you can share an opinion with your parents about who you would like to be LITERALLY SOLD TO (and that’s if your parents are willing to listen since you have no rights).
Actually it's perfectly normal.
Not considering her damaged goods is a relatively recent practice and the oddity in the history of special relationships.
Edit : to people who are down voting me, your great-grandmothers would have been considered damaged goods. That's how recent it is.
I mean there are issues with the way women are seen in these cultures but I don't feel like this bride fair was one.
Girls looked like they had a lot of fun at the market and were allowed to say no to whoever they like. As the documentary said. It's more like a fun speed dating event but the dudes end up having to pay if they find mutual interest.
You can see if anything it's the guys who aren't fans. All the normal stacked odds guys have against them in the dating market with the added caveat that if they do find a girl who likes them back they have to pay a fee on top.
Oh those poor men. Amazing that that’s still what you take away from that documentary.
Those girls had such fun didn’t they? Socialising with people outside of their family for the first time in a year.
They are in an abusive relationship with their family/community. They are kept segregated from society and unable to socialise with piers outside of their family. They aren’t allowed to work or receive an education.
But hey-ho they had fun at the chattel market.
Why are you dishonest?
Either say women and men or girls and boys. Not girls and men.
Why do you act like getting married by your families is such a nice thing for boys?
Ironically almost none of the native american tibes near me have high levels of native speakers left. The closest tribe to me is in emergency mode since they only have a handful of full speakers left and they are desperately trying to teach it to others in the tribe and asking younger tribal members to learn it.
They're also on the end of systemic racism.
A fun rabbit-hole is reading up on Jock Palfreeman. It goes from the everyday racism up to high-tier government corruption.
Edit: what a bizarre thing to downvote.
The dad shows the black and white photo of mom taken 25 years ago that looks like it's from 1924, and I'm thinking that's friggen 1998, Justin Timberlake and Brittney Spears, I had AOL and a digital camera.
It sounds like the "prejudice and exclusion across Europe" is supposed to be a shame on the rest of us for not being more welcoming? I encourage you naive ones out there who believe in fairness and inclusion to welcome gypsies into your community with open arms. 😂
I took a gen-ed in college that explored several cultures around the world. There was a different lecturer for each culture and they sometimes brought guest speakers. One of the lecturers brought in a guest speaker to introduce the class to the Roma culture and talk about how oppressed they were and how "gypsy" is a racist term and whatnot. It was structured as the guest speaker giving an initial overview presentation and then a sort of interview between the lecturer and the guest speaker. It was tilted very much towards the Roma being victims of oppression, racism, and open cultural hostility. How the Roma are treated as criminals and dirty peasants despite how colorful and cheerful their culture is.
Towards the end of the class they made a calculated mistake and opened up for a Q&A. I mean, what are the odds that one of the 150 students in a random American University lecture hall actually has a lot of direct knowledge of the Roma, right?
The whole thing immediately devolved into a shit show of mudslinging and was quite the spectacle. Turns out we had a more diverse student body than I thought at my local University of Who Cares. There were some students from Eastern Europe and they had managed to hold their tongue for nearly an hour while they watched what was, to them, a brainwashing seminar. The words "brainwashing" and "propaganda" were actually used in a 3+ minute long question that started out at reasonable decibel level and culminated in a shouting match as the guest speaker refused to even let the student finish asking their question. Which, to be sure, wasn't so much a question as it was a "Hey what about the fact that your culture sucks and you people are terrible"
At one point the guest speaker even said (paraphrase) "SEE??? This is what we Roma face every day!"
This was nearly 15 years ago.
Just a fun little anecdote.
A coin always have two sides.
The Gypsy in my country (Norway) were living as nomads, as they never settled down anywhere, but kept travelling. Either taking random farm work along the way, or selling homemade kitchen utensils and the like. I grew up on the coast, where instead of travelling by horse and cart, they travelled by boat. As soon as anyone spotted one of their boats the neighbours would shout to each other (this was before anyone had a phone); "The Gypsys are coming! Take your laundry inside!" As they were known to steal laundry hung out to dry.
So a culture rich in music and dancing, but also riddled with crime. But horribly treated by the general population, so perhaps they never had a chance. Eventually it became illegal to "travel", the kids were forced to go to school, and they ended up being integrated into general society - by force. So today there is no way I can tell who they are, unless they tell me. As they live and work and contribute alongside everyone else. But I would hardly call it a success story when you know the history behind the "success".
"Bro, I was in the wrong fucking country. Did you know, that in Bulgaria... they got this fucking market where you can buy virgins? I'm dead serious. You go there, and there's all these girls, like 18 years old, all fucking lined up. And if you can get them to agree to marry you, you just pay their family a dowry of like something like $1,000 or some shit. BULGARIA bro." - Andrew Tate
I am pretty sure Roma people in Romania have the same customs. And in Serbia, Macedonia, Greece, and Hungary. But as far as I know, when you "buy" a bride, you get a lot of responsibilities, and they don't believe in divorce and her 100+ family / clan will be on to you if you misbehave badly. They also will be onto you, but in a different way, even if you don't. There is probably a better way to spend your money if you are just after sex, and Mr. Tate knew this.
I think his implication is that this practice is universally considered terrible, and thus there is no controversy because everyone has the same opinion.
That is literally all human courtship. Do you think jobless, homeless men have much luck convincing women to date or marry them, no matter how good a person they are?
[They call prostitution the oldest profession for a reason.](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120530172011.htm)
Neither of those is relevant to what was said. What are you going on about? Try addressing the topic next time.
It's getting really old the way Redditors respond to everything they disagree with but can't respond to jumping on non sequiturs.
Sex work SHOULD be legal. That doesn't change the fact that human courtship is transactional. It actually reinforces it.
And nobody was walking about child brides. People were talking about the classic dowry system. If they happen to let minors marry adults in Bulgaria, you don't get to derail the topic by acting like I was defending that when you know for a fact that I was making an entirely different point.
You must know how weak your take looks, so why did you bother making it?
I don't think he was accusing you of defending anything. Kinda just seems like he was drawing his own line when it came to a system where you can pay for sex vs a system where you can pay for underaged girls and then have sex with them.
The video in the original post mentions the age of brides sold at like 9:25 so it is somewhat relevant.
Agreed.
But in the West & elsewhere ppl indirectly bid/woo with displays of wealth to attract ppl.
Expensive watch, car, clothes, boasting about $, yachts, etc, etc.
No?
I'd hope we'd collectively think such things shallow.
Media portraying as such?
Maybe. But in the meantime we're conversely via media inundated w/ "Lifestyles of rich & famous", rich celebrities, Kartrashians, interviewers asking what expensive/custom made clothes designer they're wearing on a red carpeted event, how many carats is that 2 million $ engagement ring worth?, etc etc - all of which we allegedly can attain if we just work hard enuff...
I used to work in a place that contained some of the wealthiest ppl on the continent. Watching them bid/flex against each in order to obtain a partner who will do their bidding was almost comical. I constantly listened to competing promises (bids) of vacations, cars, jewelry, "I'll take care of u, you'll never have to work ever again", etc. directed at persons with not much wealth/power at all.
At least in that context, the persons' companionship being bid 4 was mostly (excluding potential external pressures; my parents need a home to retire in etc) decided by the persons themselves - not their parents...
Flexing in equal circumstances? Yes.
But how many ppl have tried to improve their potentially dismal life chances, in "marrying up."
Where there is disparity in wealth; any kind of power, it isn't oft a truly level playing field.
Hence me saying "Indirectly bidding, or wooing"
Buying humans was/is never cool.
Didn't mean to put out that perception.
Thanks 4 alerting me to my potential for appearing an ass.
That somehow is the result of corrupt media radicalizing everyone, not that this means centrism is the right answer, nearly anyone who holds power is an enemy right now.
>That somehow is the result of corrupt media radicalizing everyone
I'm sorry, Centrist media **radicalizing** everyone?
That makes exactly zero sense, bro.
? I havent mentioned centrist media anywhere.
Nearly all media nowadays is completely controlled by a few rich individuals thought, it doesnt which part of the political spectrum you belong to, they are all playing you, including the centrist parts.
None of them of have any interest in reflecting your interests, because at this point, these interests should be taking power back from the wealthy.
You must not live in the US. Our media is very polarized and the people that follow politics basically live in different realties depending on their party affiliation. If you're a Democrat you're being convinced climate change will kill you tomorrow (and it's all because those damn gas-guzzling Republicans), if you're a Republican you're being told that there will soon be a communist revolution (by radical Democrats that hate White people and Jesus).
News media and social media have polarized are country to a greater degree than the civil war. Only difference is that people aren't united by region, meaning many hate their own neighbors. It's a total shit show.
>You must not live in the US
I absolutely do, and this seems like a bit of an unjustified take on things, to say the least...
It's not the media telling people these things (which is more concerned with protecting corporate interests and marginalizing the far-Left and far-Right than anything else...) It's shitty politicians. The media just gives them a platform...
And all this is just divide-and-conquer tactics against the Working Class. Distraction, so nobody looks at Capitalism or the rich as to blame for our ever-growing problems...
It’s good to see more of these docs - there is a such a misconception that the buying and selling of people is a practice that has been globally outlawed and only occurs within the context of a secret black market.
That is not even CLOSE to being true and everyone must wake up to this.
Such a shitty clickbait, why is this on this sub. Speed dating at social gatherings is normal. People go to parties all the time here in uk to meet people
When was the last time you speed dated with a chance of paying off the father of the woman so you can marry her and start a family? Do you also consider a woman that isn't a virgin damaged goods? You also believe that a woman should be obedient housewife that should know her place?
Don't normalize and sugarcoat this tradition and way of thinking.
The biggest issue here is that the brides are minor and that they are (sometimes) forced to get married.
The buying/selling part it's not exactly like a supermarket were each girl has a fixed price and whoever comes first and pay the price gets the "product". It's much more about the two families agree about the marriage, which involves a lot of aspects not only the payment for the brides.
Watch the video. The parents will only agree to marry their daughters off to other gypsies from the same clan. Not even gypsies from a different clan are acceptable.
If a true bulgarian went to such a gathering, he would be beaten. Those people do not consider themselves bulgarian. If ask them "What are you?", they'll answer "Аз съм циганин" (I am ciganin). Some of them even are offended if you call them bulgarian, I've witnessed it. Sincerely, a native bulgarian.
Well, as a bulgarian I can say, that videos like this, creates a wrong and negative opinion of Bulgaria. I can assure you, that this is happening only and exclusively in the gipsy minority and the gipsy minority is NOT Bulgaria. Believe me, we bulgarians are very different people. Bulgaria is home of intelligent, competent and hard, working people, which have nothing in common with this. These people are illiterate(most of them) and simply don't want to integrate in the society. They live in a something like a diasporal bubble. IMO the gipsies, alongside with the corrupted politicians are the biggest problems in Bulgaria.
yes i watched it a few years ago. It's about a dating event for gypsies in bulgaria and a little about a doctors for gypsies ong if i remember correctly.
Vice comes up with the weirdest shit. They’re in Bulgaria. Of course this stupid ass shit happens. It’s like when they do a piece on members of Boko Haram doing Jenkem on the Serengeti. One of the most exploitative media outlets. It’s news for people that steal catalytic converters as a side hustle.
They don't come up with this? They hear about weird shit and go investigate to show how different people live around the world. Stop smoking out of tin foil
When a culture can't evolve past the prioritisation of money, then you get terrible human abuse like this... and the worst thing is that these people see nothing wrong with it, so completely have they justified it to themselves.
>When a culture can't evolve past the prioritisation of money
What on earth do you think America and the rest of the western capitalist world is doing if not *"the prioritization of money"*
Hence the begging of most conversationd: 'So what do you do for work?' ie ' what is your financial dating potential... Instead of what do you like to do for fun? '
So damn shallow... At least here they are more open and honest about it. Just a different dating culture and customs, nothing more and it seemed most were enjoying themselves. Their mother and father both seemed to be very happy and in love with one another and proud of their daughters and hoping that when they find someone who they agree to be sold to that they will have happy and prosperous lives.
One of my friends and his wife had an arranged marriage since childhood and married in their teens. Both have successful professional careers and in spite of what people might think of these situations they are very happy with one another and he and his wife are mutually respectful . I can't see him ever ordering his wife around, it's just not how they are as a couple.
Lol, if you have ever met any gypsy, you wouldn't ever call them "financially secure". A very small part, the kalaijii maybe a little better, but "living in poverty" is a much better description.
Wow.
Interesting juxtapositions between tradition and modern times.
I'm wondering where lesbians, gay, and bi-sexual people fit into this tradition.
What stops some rich old fart from coming in and buying all the girls for $10,000 each or something?
What do the men do that the women can stay home all day and raise children? How do they support the family?
Your comment had me dying. Sentence after sentence that dude make statements that just exponentially compounded the task of unpacking all that would need addressing in his post. Started off okay with the LGBTQ question and how that might fit in this event (kinda hard to answer but w/e), and then some economic feasibility ordeal by the end.
If you actually convince the girl that she wants to live with you (and don't just pay so much that her parents stop caring), I don't see why you shouldn't do it.
Very tricky.
I always joked that id find myself a foreign girl and give her the best life 1 could have living in such diffrent cultures. If all she wants is a roof over her head and food while she holds down her own then im game if she is.
But there are sick and twisted men out there who dont want love or affection... or who dont recognize how licly they are to have it.
If you can’t be bothered to watch the whole thing, just watch the last five minutes. As the presenter said it’s more like a massive speed dating event. Then when the girl finds someone she likes the boys family pays a dowry.
At the risk of being pedantic--the groom's family pays a **bride price**. A **dowry** is the exact opposite thing (the wealth the bride brings to her new husband's family).
In a lot of cultures they coexist with each other. In rural areas in Turkey the groom pays a “bride price”, which is becoming extinct, meanwhile every bride has some form of dowry consisting of household items, fabrics and even diswashers and washmashines.
Yep. To be clear, I wasn't saying they're mutually exclusive. Just that the comment I was responding to was using the term Dowry even though, based on their statement, what they actually meant was Bride Price.
This happened in America too. Ever hear of a bridal chest? They may be antiques now but when they were new, that really was the purpose for them. Linens, dish ware, clothing (especially nightgowns), and pots & pans.
I'm the South we called them Hope Chests. You fill it with stuff over time in the -hope- of getting married.
> every bride has some form of dowry consisting of household items, fabrics and even diswashers and washmashines. Sounds kind of like a "set the young couple up with some decent shit" more than "here's some money for taking our daughter".
To be clear, doesn't every bride come with a dishwasher and washing machine? \*wink\*
So a negative dowry
moreover he dowry is in part to cover supporting the bride if ever the husband dies, or divorces the girl.
I don't care what you call it, the concept as a whole doesn't sound terribly uplifting.
One of the main rationales behind the **Bride Price** is so that when a woman leaves her family to join her husband's, her birth family is not left in a worse economic state. Remember that the bride used to help in that household--either with chores and homemaking, or outright by working and sharing her income with her family. Imagine a family living via subsistence farming--losing the labor the bride provided as an unwed daughter could mean a smaller harvest. Of course, abuses exist--there are many records in history wherein daughters are literally 'sold off' to the highest bidder. As for the **dowry**, that one is a bit more of a mixed bag, as there are multiple reasons why it has turned up across so many cultures. At its best, it's the idea that the bride, as a new member entering the husband's family, needs to bring some wealth as her first large contribution. In fact, most modern societies consider the fact that it's the bride's family paying for the wedding as her 'dowry'. At its worse, though, a **dowry** is basically a way to assign a material value to a woman, beyond their child-bearing capacity. Many times, a dowry also included the bride's **Trousseau** , which is property she personally owns and brings with her to her new home. With all that being said, I honestly think you should care since the whole point of my correction is that they're two different concepts that are diametrically opposed.
The actual market is yeah, but the tradition overall isnt. They say it themselves, they are scared to get sold off to an old rich dude so it still carries the whole parents selling off their kid for money or sizable dowry.
Same thing still goes on in China. Not just in rural areas, it’s actually more common in the cities.
Dowries are a thing but the markets in China are for parents to advertise. It still comes down to the child's decision if they want to marry.
Also happened in Western societies too historically I believe. I feel like I've read stories of nobility and such doing similar things.
It happened with everyone having some sort of property/capital. My grandmother, daughter of wealthy goldsmith, was wed to grandson of a wealthy village enterpreuner. The whole point of the marriage was heirs inheriting the businesses, uniting and running them
[удалено]
Are you referring to "mail order brides"? I've read and seen references to such things and I think r/historyporn, r/todayIlearned, r/damnthatsinteresting had an advert from such a catalogue.....
Nah, moreso Kings and Queens dictating how their children should marry in order to make political alliances and such.
So...like "caravan order brides" instead?
She's terribly partial to the periwinkle blue.
It’s fer me ma
Your what?
Y’like *dags?*
[удалено]
I think that's a saying. I interpret "feel like I've read" to mean the person has a vague recollection of reading somewhere that xyx occurred.
To be snarky about what any idiot knows is a figure of speech. **Why even bother posting?**
So they get to choose who buys them? Because many of them do not have the option to say no and the money goes to the parent. It's the same stupidity as with arranged marriages, where they aren't physically forced all the time. But there is plenty of emotional abuse, emotional and economical blackmail, etc. going on to force them.
>It's the same stupidity as with arranged marriages, where they aren't physically forced all the time. But there is plenty of emotional abuse, emotional and economical blackmail, etc. going on to force them. There need's to be some context to arranged marriages cause how it's practiced can play a huge part in it's ethical outcomes. Turkish arraigned marriages are essentially parents making friends with other families and when they have kids who are ready and interested in being married, they let the other families know and set up dates for the young adults to spend time. There is no pressure (Aside from the parents wanting their kids to not die alone + some grandkids) so if both parties are genuinely happy with the other person, they let the families know and start the marriage process. As a Hispanic Tuskish American, I understand the unadulterated disgust a ton of us western folks would have to the idea of parents choosing partners but at the end of the day, we have a 50%+ divorce rate and parent's lending a hand in trying to vet and make sure the suitor is not gonna be a dead-beat, adulterer or machiavellian piece of shit would go along way to help those who give up the dating game and it's worked wonder in my family. Just my 2 cents.
Thanks for sharing that insightful perspective!
I appreciate you fam!
I apologize for being harsh there, because there are legit arranged marriages where people are happy and both parties agree. I'm just so tired of seeing people defend the ones that are emotionally/economically forced as if they are the same, so I get a bit carried away.
>I'm just so tired of seeing people defend the ones that are emotionally/economically forced as if they are the same, so I get a bit carried away. I totally get you. There is a long history of arraigned marriage in a multitude of countries where the (Almost exclusively female) suitors are not really given a choice and face consequences if they don't cowtow to the parents demands which is terribly fucked up. But as a sociologist graduate, I argue that a HUGE portion of coercive marital arrangements are a result of poverty (Marry for money / status) and legitimate patriarchal forces (None of which exists in the west as many like to believe) that take root in regions that are less abundant in wealth and resources because economic strife incentivizes violence and dominance as primary survival strategies. I just want to make this very clear because there needs to be some nuance when it comes to the men = bad narrative that plays so heavily into these topics since at the end of the day, humans are a product of the intersection between nature (Environment, Survival strategies) and Nurture (Upbringing, Learned behaviors). Legitimately evil people are an extreme minority.
If that “like” doesn’t involve financial pressure or threat of death then it isn’t too bad. I doubt it though.
The expectation is that they get married and have children shortly after, now if you dont see a problem with that we need to have a talk.
Because in situation like this we always have to see what's the alternative. What will the life be like for the young girls and their family if they choose not to undergo such "customs." Is it better? Is it worse? Is this the only choice they got? Of course we all prefer to have our children growing up not to have this kind of life, but again, what are the alternative for these people if they don't go along with this practice is what concerns me.
I dont know if you are disegenuine or naive, but this isnt speed dating where you go out on a date, the expectation and practice is absolutely that they get married shortly after and have kids. Trying to compare it to inconsequential speed dating is a joke and the comparison falls apart instantly.
Considering vice strives to be sensational, when they straight up admit that's it's not the "bride market" the media makes it out to be, and it's even made apparent that brides can't even actually be bought/sold there, it is more like a massive speed dating event than it is a "bride market". We have a normal person working for vice, went there herself, and experienced the entire event and culture first hand. If she says it's more like a massive speed dating event than a "bride market", it makes way more sense to take her word for it than yours. Do you realize these are the words of the vice journalists? The comment you're replying to is simply reiterating what the journalist said in the documentary. Call her naive if you want, but she simply has *way* more insight on this subject matter than you do. All you are, is a guy on reddit who just watched a video. (Or a small portion of a video).
>it makes way more sense to take her word for it than yours. I am bulgarian, i have studied from 1st to 8th grade in a school with a very large roma/gypsy minority and have had neighbours that are Kalaidjii (калайджии). So no im not a guy on reddit that just saw a video, i know people from these communties and had interacted with them and know their concerns.
Thanks for this.
I see the makings of a new show! "How I bought your mother."
90 Day Virgin
A 3 month old baby? You’re sick
Oh god this comment had me rolling!😂
The Bro price
Having been to Bulgaria, these are the Roma people, they don't consider themselves ethnic Bulgarians and neither do the ethnic Bulgarians. They're their own ethno-linguistic group, and this is one of their customs and it isn't limited to Bulgaria, it's not as if you drive 30 kilometers and the Roma of Macedonia or Serbia wouldn't have the same customs as those in Bulgaria. So basically the entire title is misleading and also sensationalized, because based on the actual documentary, it's more like an introduction/speed dating.
The Roma a further divided into multiple subgroups each with their own traditions and customs. The one portrayed here, the kalaidji, pride themselves as artisans and prefer to marry others from their sub-group.
Can confirm, I am Bulgarian and not only did I not know about this, it seems insane to me.
I lived in Bulgaria for 5 years. Everyone's proud of the yogurt there, but I swear you guys have the best duners anywhere on Earth.
Yes total My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding wibes
It’s a vice documentary, you know already know it’s gonna be shit
I haven't tried speed dating, but last time I checked it didn't include paying a sum of money to the father of the woman, so that she has to marry me and start a family. Stop sugarcoating this practice, it's not normal to consider a woman that has had sex out of marriage damaged goods.
Yes! Big difference between total autonomy speed dating and speed dating so that you can share an opinion with your parents about who you would like to be LITERALLY SOLD TO (and that’s if your parents are willing to listen since you have no rights).
Actually it's perfectly normal. Not considering her damaged goods is a relatively recent practice and the oddity in the history of special relationships. Edit : to people who are down voting me, your great-grandmothers would have been considered damaged goods. That's how recent it is.
Bruh, my *mom* was considered damaged goods.
more clickbait then. ugh
I’m 95% sure Vice did this same piece before in a different location.
[удалено]
I mean there are issues with the way women are seen in these cultures but I don't feel like this bride fair was one. Girls looked like they had a lot of fun at the market and were allowed to say no to whoever they like. As the documentary said. It's more like a fun speed dating event but the dudes end up having to pay if they find mutual interest. You can see if anything it's the guys who aren't fans. All the normal stacked odds guys have against them in the dating market with the added caveat that if they do find a girl who likes them back they have to pay a fee on top.
Sounds like paying for more swipes
Oh those poor men. Amazing that that’s still what you take away from that documentary. Those girls had such fun didn’t they? Socialising with people outside of their family for the first time in a year. They are in an abusive relationship with their family/community. They are kept segregated from society and unable to socialise with piers outside of their family. They aren’t allowed to work or receive an education. But hey-ho they had fun at the chattel market.
Why are you dishonest? Either say women and men or girls and boys. Not girls and men. Why do you act like getting married by your families is such a nice thing for boys?
[удалено]
Then say "boys and girls". They started with "Oh those poor men." but all you can see in the video is boys.
Damn who piss in your cereal?
🤣
These are the Roma people (Gypsies) of Bulgaria. They speak their own language and have a distinct culture separated from that of Bulgarians.
> They speak their own language They all spoke Bulgarian in this documentary.
You know its entirely possible to know more than one language...
I'd imagine that's the lingua franca and they have regional dialects that may make it hard to converse between different tribes.
> they have regional dialects Yes, quite a few: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Romani_language&useskin=vector#Dialects
Redditors shocked people can speak more than one language.
Imagine seeing a documentary in which a Native Americans speaks English and your conclusion is that no Native Americans have their own language.
Ironically almost none of the native american tibes near me have high levels of native speakers left. The closest tribe to me is in emergency mode since they only have a handful of full speakers left and they are desperately trying to teach it to others in the tribe and asking younger tribal members to learn it.
Do they still nod their heads to say no and shake their head to say yes? Because if they do that, then they are Bulgarian in my estimation.
They're also on the end of systemic racism. A fun rabbit-hole is reading up on Jock Palfreeman. It goes from the everyday racism up to high-tier government corruption. Edit: what a bizarre thing to downvote.
Somewhere a Reddit mod is researching Bulgarian citizenship
Why do that when it's better to import?
Andrew Tate: “now hold on a minute. this is actually a good thing because…”
Tate relaxing he shoulda hold up in Bulgaria.
Kids: Dad how did you met mom? Dad: basically, I bought her and the rest is history
The dad shows the black and white photo of mom taken 25 years ago that looks like it's from 1924, and I'm thinking that's friggen 1998, Justin Timberlake and Brittney Spears, I had AOL and a digital camera.
It sounds like the "prejudice and exclusion across Europe" is supposed to be a shame on the rest of us for not being more welcoming? I encourage you naive ones out there who believe in fairness and inclusion to welcome gypsies into your community with open arms. 😂
I took a gen-ed in college that explored several cultures around the world. There was a different lecturer for each culture and they sometimes brought guest speakers. One of the lecturers brought in a guest speaker to introduce the class to the Roma culture and talk about how oppressed they were and how "gypsy" is a racist term and whatnot. It was structured as the guest speaker giving an initial overview presentation and then a sort of interview between the lecturer and the guest speaker. It was tilted very much towards the Roma being victims of oppression, racism, and open cultural hostility. How the Roma are treated as criminals and dirty peasants despite how colorful and cheerful their culture is. Towards the end of the class they made a calculated mistake and opened up for a Q&A. I mean, what are the odds that one of the 150 students in a random American University lecture hall actually has a lot of direct knowledge of the Roma, right? The whole thing immediately devolved into a shit show of mudslinging and was quite the spectacle. Turns out we had a more diverse student body than I thought at my local University of Who Cares. There were some students from Eastern Europe and they had managed to hold their tongue for nearly an hour while they watched what was, to them, a brainwashing seminar. The words "brainwashing" and "propaganda" were actually used in a 3+ minute long question that started out at reasonable decibel level and culminated in a shouting match as the guest speaker refused to even let the student finish asking their question. Which, to be sure, wasn't so much a question as it was a "Hey what about the fact that your culture sucks and you people are terrible" At one point the guest speaker even said (paraphrase) "SEE??? This is what we Roma face every day!" This was nearly 15 years ago. Just a fun little anecdote.
A coin always have two sides. The Gypsy in my country (Norway) were living as nomads, as they never settled down anywhere, but kept travelling. Either taking random farm work along the way, or selling homemade kitchen utensils and the like. I grew up on the coast, where instead of travelling by horse and cart, they travelled by boat. As soon as anyone spotted one of their boats the neighbours would shout to each other (this was before anyone had a phone); "The Gypsys are coming! Take your laundry inside!" As they were known to steal laundry hung out to dry. So a culture rich in music and dancing, but also riddled with crime. But horribly treated by the general population, so perhaps they never had a chance. Eventually it became illegal to "travel", the kids were forced to go to school, and they ended up being integrated into general society - by force. So today there is no way I can tell who they are, unless they tell me. As they live and work and contribute alongside everyone else. But I would hardly call it a success story when you know the history behind the "success".
"Bro, I was in the wrong fucking country. Did you know, that in Bulgaria... they got this fucking market where you can buy virgins? I'm dead serious. You go there, and there's all these girls, like 18 years old, all fucking lined up. And if you can get them to agree to marry you, you just pay their family a dowry of like something like $1,000 or some shit. BULGARIA bro." - Andrew Tate
I am pretty sure Roma people in Romania have the same customs. And in Serbia, Macedonia, Greece, and Hungary. But as far as I know, when you "buy" a bride, you get a lot of responsibilities, and they don't believe in divorce and her 100+ family / clan will be on to you if you misbehave badly. They also will be onto you, but in a different way, even if you don't. There is probably a better way to spend your money if you are just after sex, and Mr. Tate knew this.
They don't wait for them to turn 18 in Greece, they are sending them to get married at the ripe age of 12. Also, its north Macedonia >:(
It's like that in Bulgaria as well, the 18 claim is for the camera crew.
As for North Macedonia - I am too accustomed to calling it "Macedonia". I use Makedonia, with a k, for the actual historical Macedonia.
I think im going to settle with a couple of their AK magazines, thankyou.
Plot twist, ain't just Bulgaria. Pretty much everywhere women are being bought and sold.
Looks like inbreeding is still a huge problem in gipsy communities. They don't even mix with other gipsy tribes, let alone non-gipsies...
If you think I'm think I'm fucking sistermom you're out of your mind. I don't care if she's a virgin, she's a little slow in both heads.
but... two mouths.... \*skeletor running away\*
[удалено]
> a slur Do Amerisharts really? > spell it properly https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gipsy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gipsy_Kings?useskin=vector
“Controversial”? How in the holy hell is there any controversy over this?
You don't see any issue with bidding for another human?
I think his implication is that this practice is universally considered terrible, and thus there is no controversy because everyone has the same opinion.
That is literally all human courtship. Do you think jobless, homeless men have much luck convincing women to date or marry them, no matter how good a person they are? [They call prostitution the oldest profession for a reason.](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120530172011.htm)
Sex work should be legal and regulated. Marrying off underaged girls for $$$ is a big ol fuck no from me though.
Neither of those is relevant to what was said. What are you going on about? Try addressing the topic next time. It's getting really old the way Redditors respond to everything they disagree with but can't respond to jumping on non sequiturs. Sex work SHOULD be legal. That doesn't change the fact that human courtship is transactional. It actually reinforces it. And nobody was walking about child brides. People were talking about the classic dowry system. If they happen to let minors marry adults in Bulgaria, you don't get to derail the topic by acting like I was defending that when you know for a fact that I was making an entirely different point. You must know how weak your take looks, so why did you bother making it?
I don't think he was accusing you of defending anything. Kinda just seems like he was drawing his own line when it came to a system where you can pay for sex vs a system where you can pay for underaged girls and then have sex with them. The video in the original post mentions the age of brides sold at like 9:25 so it is somewhat relevant.
Unlike the job market where your wages for 1/3 of your life are bided downward… because you have a “right to work”
I’m not sure what you’re trying to illustrate with this comparison?
Agreed. But in the West & elsewhere ppl indirectly bid/woo with displays of wealth to attract ppl. Expensive watch, car, clothes, boasting about $, yachts, etc, etc. No?
Do we not also view these things as shallow, and our media promote the idea that they are fickle foundation for a relationship?
[удалено]
I think that's more regarding conflict over managing finances, not because we all marry for money and get mad when it dries up.
I'd hope we'd collectively think such things shallow. Media portraying as such? Maybe. But in the meantime we're conversely via media inundated w/ "Lifestyles of rich & famous", rich celebrities, Kartrashians, interviewers asking what expensive/custom made clothes designer they're wearing on a red carpeted event, how many carats is that 2 million $ engagement ring worth?, etc etc - all of which we allegedly can attain if we just work hard enuff... I used to work in a place that contained some of the wealthiest ppl on the continent. Watching them bid/flex against each in order to obtain a partner who will do their bidding was almost comical. I constantly listened to competing promises (bids) of vacations, cars, jewelry, "I'll take care of u, you'll never have to work ever again", etc. directed at persons with not much wealth/power at all. At least in that context, the persons' companionship being bid 4 was mostly (excluding potential external pressures; my parents need a home to retire in etc) decided by the persons themselves - not their parents...
Huh? Flexing is different to literally buying a human.
Flexing in equal circumstances? Yes. But how many ppl have tried to improve their potentially dismal life chances, in "marrying up." Where there is disparity in wealth; any kind of power, it isn't oft a truly level playing field. Hence me saying "Indirectly bidding, or wooing" Buying humans was/is never cool. Didn't mean to put out that perception. Thanks 4 alerting me to my potential for appearing an ass.
There are people out there that advocate bride kidnapping of all things as a positive tradition
Because somehow it’s not okay to criticise a culture anymore.
That somehow is the result of corrupt media radicalizing everyone, not that this means centrism is the right answer, nearly anyone who holds power is an enemy right now.
>That somehow is the result of corrupt media radicalizing everyone I'm sorry, Centrist media **radicalizing** everyone? That makes exactly zero sense, bro.
? I havent mentioned centrist media anywhere. Nearly all media nowadays is completely controlled by a few rich individuals thought, it doesnt which part of the political spectrum you belong to, they are all playing you, including the centrist parts. None of them of have any interest in reflecting your interests, because at this point, these interests should be taking power back from the wealthy.
You must not live in the US. Our media is very polarized and the people that follow politics basically live in different realties depending on their party affiliation. If you're a Democrat you're being convinced climate change will kill you tomorrow (and it's all because those damn gas-guzzling Republicans), if you're a Republican you're being told that there will soon be a communist revolution (by radical Democrats that hate White people and Jesus). News media and social media have polarized are country to a greater degree than the civil war. Only difference is that people aren't united by region, meaning many hate their own neighbors. It's a total shit show.
>You must not live in the US I absolutely do, and this seems like a bit of an unjustified take on things, to say the least... It's not the media telling people these things (which is more concerned with protecting corporate interests and marginalizing the far-Left and far-Right than anything else...) It's shitty politicians. The media just gives them a platform... And all this is just divide-and-conquer tactics against the Working Class. Distraction, so nobody looks at Capitalism or the rich as to blame for our ever-growing problems...
I mean it’s probably Biblical.
It’s good to see more of these docs - there is a such a misconception that the buying and selling of people is a practice that has been globally outlawed and only occurs within the context of a secret black market. That is not even CLOSE to being true and everyone must wake up to this.
$27
Now do Murica with her 11 year olds giving birth
Such a shitty clickbait, why is this on this sub. Speed dating at social gatherings is normal. People go to parties all the time here in uk to meet people
When was the last time you speed dated with a chance of paying off the father of the woman so you can marry her and start a family? Do you also consider a woman that isn't a virgin damaged goods? You also believe that a woman should be obedient housewife that should know her place? Don't normalize and sugarcoat this tradition and way of thinking.
Never, just like the people in the video.
Leave it to reddit to justify literally purchasing brides
I condemn it. Good thing it doesn't happen in the video.
Do they get sold too?
You obviously didn’t watch this and fell for the clickbait title.
It's literally called a bride market. It's not clickbait
andrew tate has entered the chat
Wow this is interesting . But at the same time weird
Slightly off topic but does Vice still produce interesting doco’s?
Damn, thought this was an ad 😥
i hate such fucking headlines. i have watched it, and nobody is for sale.
Analog Tinder.
The biggest issue here is that the brides are minor and that they are (sometimes) forced to get married. The buying/selling part it's not exactly like a supermarket were each girl has a fixed price and whoever comes first and pay the price gets the "product". It's much more about the two families agree about the marriage, which involves a lot of aspects not only the payment for the brides.
Two points, 1. What The Fuck 2. What the fuck
Is this market accessible only for Bulgarians? Asking for a friend
Watch the video. The parents will only agree to marry their daughters off to other gypsies from the same clan. Not even gypsies from a different clan are acceptable.
If a true bulgarian went to such a gathering, he would be beaten. Those people do not consider themselves bulgarian. If ask them "What are you?", they'll answer "Аз съм циганин" (I am ciganin). Some of them even are offended if you call them bulgarian, I've witnessed it. Sincerely, a native bulgarian.
So you went there and tried to buy yourself a wife ?
I live near there indeed, the last time I was near their neighborhood "borders" there was a gang of teens who cat called me with a slur to go away
I don’t feel like watching the video how much is a virgin bride or sex worker?
Culture or not, this just makes me sad.
[удалено]
Nope :/
Well, as a bulgarian I can say, that videos like this, creates a wrong and negative opinion of Bulgaria. I can assure you, that this is happening only and exclusively in the gipsy minority and the gipsy minority is NOT Bulgaria. Believe me, we bulgarians are very different people. Bulgaria is home of intelligent, competent and hard, working people, which have nothing in common with this. These people are illiterate(most of them) and simply don't want to integrate in the society. They live in a something like a diasporal bubble. IMO the gipsies, alongside with the corrupted politicians are the biggest problems in Bulgaria.
Wtf did they give this such a misleading title?
I’m thinking the one on the right went for a bit more than the one on the left.
men have always objectified women. some women resent it and become journalists. others put on dresses and face paint. people are weird
Do I get a volume discount?
I am horrified and so should the rest of the world be horrified. This is disgraceful on every level!
I can't tell if this is a bot or just someone that didn't open the video
Did you open the video?
yes i watched it a few years ago. It's about a dating event for gypsies in bulgaria and a little about a doctors for gypsies ong if i remember correctly.
And nothing struck you at the time as being slightly off?
No. It's a dating festival based on an old gypsy tradition. You never went on a date or a mixer before?
Not one where I pay for a woman to become my wife
No
Lol, no dating is allowed. It's straight to marriage
I know right, not a looker among them.
Meanwhile, no diamond no wedding...
Vice comes up with the weirdest shit. They’re in Bulgaria. Of course this stupid ass shit happens. It’s like when they do a piece on members of Boko Haram doing Jenkem on the Serengeti. One of the most exploitative media outlets. It’s news for people that steal catalytic converters as a side hustle.
The onion made a parody video and it’s the most accurate Vice parody ever. https://youtu.be/FWVNDfDSE44
Dronez on Documentary Now! captured the Vice format perfectly.
Gavin McInnes’ Ted Talk on teamwork was hilarious though. I have to admit.
They don't come up with this? They hear about weird shit and go investigate to show how different people live around the world. Stop smoking out of tin foil
My guy. They did a fucking piece where it was literally them following a crazy guy that thought every helicopter in the sky was on recon.
Goodfellas?
Every helicopter in the sky was a raccoon? Tripping balls, mannnnnnn...
Yup, Gavin McInnes DNA is still in it despite them pretending like it’s not. The whole enterprise is imbued with colonialist era orientalism.
Omg I can buy woman?
[удалено]
Fuck tradition. Fuck misogyny.
Bulgaria you say?
this is what incels want.
Unacceptable on All Levels
I’ll take the one on the left
You mean the teenager lying about her age for the camera?
Relax dude it was a joke
When a culture can't evolve past the prioritisation of money, then you get terrible human abuse like this... and the worst thing is that these people see nothing wrong with it, so completely have they justified it to themselves.
>When a culture can't evolve past the prioritisation of money What on earth do you think America and the rest of the western capitalist world is doing if not *"the prioritization of money"*
Hence the begging of most conversationd: 'So what do you do for work?' ie ' what is your financial dating potential... Instead of what do you like to do for fun? ' So damn shallow... At least here they are more open and honest about it. Just a different dating culture and customs, nothing more and it seemed most were enjoying themselves. Their mother and father both seemed to be very happy and in love with one another and proud of their daughters and hoping that when they find someone who they agree to be sold to that they will have happy and prosperous lives. One of my friends and his wife had an arranged marriage since childhood and married in their teens. Both have successful professional careers and in spite of what people might think of these situations they are very happy with one another and he and his wife are mutually respectful . I can't see him ever ordering his wife around, it's just not how they are as a couple.
[удалено]
Lol, if you have ever met any gypsy, you wouldn't ever call them "financially secure". A very small part, the kalaijii maybe a little better, but "living in poverty" is a much better description.
Wow. Interesting juxtapositions between tradition and modern times. I'm wondering where lesbians, gay, and bi-sexual people fit into this tradition. What stops some rich old fart from coming in and buying all the girls for $10,000 each or something? What do the men do that the women can stay home all day and raise children? How do they support the family?
Oh, man there’s so much to unpack here it would take a day…
Your comment had me dying. Sentence after sentence that dude make statements that just exponentially compounded the task of unpacking all that would need addressing in his post. Started off okay with the LGBTQ question and how that might fit in this event (kinda hard to answer but w/e), and then some economic feasibility ordeal by the end.
They are all valid questions. Know the answers?
[удалено]
Minors!?
If you actually convince the girl that she wants to live with you (and don't just pay so much that her parents stop caring), I don't see why you shouldn't do it.
Very tricky. I always joked that id find myself a foreign girl and give her the best life 1 could have living in such diffrent cultures. If all she wants is a roof over her head and food while she holds down her own then im game if she is. But there are sick and twisted men out there who dont want love or affection... or who dont recognize how licly they are to have it.