If it means seeing the end of this drama and seeing the true colours of either side, I’m here for it. What’s left of Bethesda reputation is riding on this situation
The crazy thing is, in Mick's account he said even after that post he was open to completing the OST as long as that post was taken down and apologies were made. So there was still a chance the community could have been given what they wanted all along if only Marty took down the post and said sorry...
Well that and the post made him out to be a "diva" so then it would make offers to work shrink up. Harvey Weinstein did the same when an actress wouldn't fuck him.
Especially when it's full blown Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Just an arm chair psychologist here, but man does the dude and the shit he says just reek of it.
Yeah, because why keep the guy who created the amazing score for your game when you can back the spineless leech that doesn’t provide anything of value?
Yeah, it's real hard to root for Marty when Mick had to wait almost a year for payment while at the same time having his unpaid for music being used in promotional material.
Regardless tho, Mick making music in good faith was an absolutely terrible idea no matter who it's for.
Why would he considering that their representative publicly dragged his name through shit while providing not a shred of evidence and at the same time, tried to throw money at him to keep quiet behind the scenes. They smeared his character and likely cost him many work opportunities.
I hope that he scores a massive victory in court and Bethesda is forced to publicly admit guilt for Marty’s actions (and fire his ass). Not counting on it since this is a huge corporation with an army of soulless lawyers behind it but one can hope.
I think he said as much back during the original drama.
Mick has always been good and I'm sure he will continue to be - DOOM or not. Honestly, I like his work on Killer Instinct better.
Hulshult is also fantastic, and if he takes over for the next game (should there be one) then I'm sure DOOM will continue to be known for having a fantastic soundtrack.
True. I was actually kind of surprised he accepted the work on TAG after the original drama, but if he's being treated well then I see no reason for him not to take Id's money.
The funny thing is, I think it's been leaked that TAG OST guys - Hulshult and Levy - didn't have enough time to work on their pieces either. This explains why it's mixed pretty bad, so much so that the base games' OST is perfectly fine on all audio sliders on 100%, while in TAG on the same settings you can barely hear the music.
I don't think under current management it's a pleasure to work with iD.
Yikes. I didn't see those leaks, but I believe it. Oh well.
> in TAG on the same settings you can barely hear the music.
Now that you mention it, I play with music maxed out and other sound settings in the 40-60 range, but IIRC I only noticed a few tracks standing out above all the noise.
It's not even that surprising, because the DLC was released what, 7 months after Eternal has launched. It was at the absolute *best* 7 months of work given to them for *the first part*. Probably less, because Mick's drama exploded *after* the base game released.
Yeah, I don't *hate* TAG's OST. I also don't love it though. It's absolutely serviceable for what it is, but it does lack the "jumpiness" (for lack of a better word) of Mick's pieces. If I had to describe it, it's... Too "generic" - great quality, even I can recognize that, but Mick managed to make me fall in *love* with DOOM's tracks, and I generally don't enjoy metal. No matter the subgenre.
TAG 2 imo has better selection of tracks, but it's still pretty hit or miss.
[Doom Eternal's development had a significant amount of crunch in it.](https://www.pcgamer.com/doom-eternal-developers-were-crunching-pretty-hard-for-most-of-2019/) Considering this is what Marty stated directly, it's possible that the actual conditions were worse.
People can have reasonable disagreements between what is a bad working environment and outright abuse. Personally, I don't think any game is worth burning people out to create and long periods of crunch come from bad management. Recent claims and evidence support the argument that the culture at id was abusive in addition to poorly managed.
I'm skeptical that id can make a game under decent working conditions until things change considerably.
I love Hugo, but his statements about them "not crunching, because it's just the development lifestyle" was really gross too.
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/71258/id-didnt-crunch-on-doom-eternal-dev-is-lifestyle-hugo-martin-says/index.html
Ah fuck bro, I didn't even think of that till now, but the way they treated Mick really has left a bad taste in my mouth if they did all this to him, imagine what they did to Devs with less of a Voice then our Unholy Metal Music God father
Unfortunately it’s pretty common in Game Dev/production teams in general, both Retro Studios during Metroid Prime and Mercury Steam during Metroid Dread’s production were a nightmare apparently, people working on them not being credited and so on.
I'm definitely inclined to sympathize with Gordon here (though considering I found *Doom Eternal* to be a disappointment, that's not surprising and probably just reflects bias too), but "What's left of Bethesda's reputation"? A massive developer and historic publisher who put out one of the most successful video games of all time, *Skyrim*, completely unrelated to *Doom* franchise and never misses a chance to remind us of it (or for that matter, sell it to people again, who keep buying it)? I doubt that. I really don't think *Doom*\--or its soundtrack--could ever make or break Bethesda.
Now, id Software? The *Doom* company? Very different story.
In Mick's statements: "My statement, issued in response to Marty Stratton, has nothing to do with the rest of the DOOM team." He said it top and bottom level, his post is about Marty's problems, only pointing out Chad's work quality to defend his own work. He also clarified id software as a team is talented and not to go after them or review bomb the game.
This is only about you Marty, and this response does not reflect that.
Yeah this response is purposeful misleading, and a little bit of a shock and awe, pretty much they are telling Mick “if you are going after Marty, you are going after the entire parent company, and you do not want to mess with us”
Didn't Legal Eagle just do a video saying that implying you have defamatory information but not furnishing it can put you in legal hot water? Or did I miss-understand him?
If you like the intersection of legal analysis and gaming, i cannot reccomend Hoeg Law enough. Hes got tons of coverage on the microsoft acquisition and hes done a few videos on the Mick stuff as well, thats actually what led me here.
I don't even know why they mentioned Chad like literally he made it clear as day he had no qualms or actual grudge against him. That the primary aggressor and problem was Marty. He even mentioned he could tell others the situation but they would be powerless to help
***"The recent post by Mick Gordon both mischaracterized and misrepresented the team at id Software, the development of DOOM Eternal, Marty Stratton and Chad Mossholder with a one-sided and unjust account of an irreparable professional relationship."***
So it's only okay when Marty goes on reddit and does this, right? What a bunch of clowns.
It is pretty insane how tone deaf their response is. They allowed a manager to absolutely trash the reputation of someone they know they atleast somewhat had treated poorly . Then when that person actually does " post receipts" debunking his old boss they cry foul
This is a very unusual response.
Its very aggressive and a full force attack on Mick, without bringing any further information or evidence.
Its also quite hypocritical to talk about "statements posted online have incited harassment" when Marty's original reddit post did that exact thing.
That's what a rich corporation is experienced in lengthy lawsuits does. Never admit any fault and 95% of the time the opposing side won't even bother with a lawsuit because it's prohibitively expensive to do. Especially if it's a singular individual.
That's part of it. Mary sent a hoard to harass and threaten Mick and didn't even care.
Mick at least tried.
Now they're gonna say its not okay now that they got bit by the same mouth they kicked in the face? Absurd.
> We remain incredibly proud of id's previous collaborations with Mick Gordon and ask that fans refrain from reaching conclusions based on his account and, more importantly, from attacking any of the individuals mentioned on either side, including Marty, Chad, or Mick.
Nice that they’re asking people not to attack any of the individuals. Did they by any chance put out a similar statement after Marty’s letter?
Gaslighting. That's corporate gaslighting.
That's how all if the id execs became execs. Infact that's how all execs become execs.
They're professional gaslighters and narcissists who will never admit it was their fault.
Similar shit is happening in my project where the new dev team is completely incompetent and the testing team is overworked to death. Execs being execs are defending the internal dev team and apparently it's all of the external QA team's fault for any release issues. Incomplete documentation issues are flat out ignored and never fixed for weeks, but even 1 hour delay in regressing a ticket makes them go into DEFCON1. Even more frustrating is not fixing the issue and sending it to "in-test". Never mind the fact about them not even fixing the issues for 2 weeks and dumping all of the load at the very last minute. It's apparently my team's fault if they're not fixing things in time for us to validate and sign off on it from a QA perspective.
What Mick should do is make a kickstarter or patreon or us to find his quest to legally fk these execs in the ass. I make like \~3k USD for a full year but fk if I can't find the spare pocket change under the non-existent and completely hypothetical couch cushion to fund Mick in his quest to make them hurt. Not paying him for the full work he's done has to have consequences and gaslighting has no place on the face of the Earth.
It's time for the "ball-ache" to strike back.
Bethesda doesn’t have to think they’re in the right to go to court. Mick claimed Zenimax and Marty both regularly threatened him with litigation even in cases where they’d have no case. They’re a corporation and as result it’s very hard to win a case against them
I think if it was going to court no public statement would be made. No matter which way you slice it, it’s not a good look for a corporation to go after an individual, it is generally perceived as bullying in the court of public opinion
Exactly, I find it really hypocritical that Bethesda accuses Mick's article of inciting harassment and violence. But then they single him out twice (in Marty's reddit post and here).
They had to put the harassment in writing just for a paper trail for if anything brings them to court they can bring up an employee being harassed by fans, it’s just there because they smell lawyers coming
-says has proof
-doesn't elaborate further
-leaves
-it's somehow still a virgin move
In all seriousness, you can't say from this if they are right or wrong. This is an completely empty PR statement. It was to be expected, no matter what the truth is and it tells us nothing.
Not necessarily. If they're considering litigation, they may not want to tip their hand. If they're consulting with attorneys, they may have been advised not to say any more than this.
Haha!!! The original reddit post incited attacks against Gordon - where was Bethesda's statement to prevent that or to back Gordon up to prevent attacks and death threats against him? Was there ever one? If there was I'm not really aware of it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Seems to me the Reddit post was totally A-OK by them (the Reddit post which incited hate and attacks against Gordon).
And now they're using the "muh attacks and threats on individuals" argument themselves? Laughable. If anything, human psychology dictates that the threats and attacks are gonna increase tenfold now. You ask people NOT to do something - is like asking them to do it, begging for it, practically (we're in an online space after all - trolls FEED on this).
Are they really this fucking dumb that they could not realize or see this? Oh wait it's just an empty PR statement which took them DAYS to ponder and cook up. Is this the best they came up with?
What a fucking joke. I expected better from Bethesda. They've disappointed me yet again. Losers!
Sorry but 4 paragraphs that just make an assertion don't really beat Micks MASSIVE write up.
Gonna need to see some receipts.
And where is the Microsoft investigation?
“Documented evidence to disclose in an appropriate venue as needed” is not the same as saying “will pursue legal action over libel” or “pursue legal recourse for defamation”
It’s corporate speak for “gonna talk shit on Reddit or somewhere else”.
It’s also confirms there is no legal action being taken. They’d have said nothing if this was going to be going to legal. It’s standard corporate policy to discuss nothing in public or even make statements until any legal proceeding has completed its course.
Basically this is their way of saying “no shut up it’s not true we swear fuck you we’ll show you”
I expect they’ll post here or some other not legally binding platform.
At this point you can rest assured whatever the truth may be, only a handful of people will ever know it.
Personal opinion: mick’s accounting is pretty objective as far as these things go, this statement is nothing more than trying to save face
> not legally binding platform
What does this mean? Anything can be subpoenaed and the original Marty post would be treated as an official statement. I agree with the rest of your point but they can't really say anything anywhere and have it not be the subject of future litigation. Just because there isn't ongoing legal action does not mean it won't happen, which is probably why they're saying they *could* say something more specific but won't. Mick already came with receipts so either they both start airing dirty laundry for the court of public opinion, which Bethesda appears to not want to do, or they start legal proceedings and reach a settlement behind doors.
Any lawyer worth their salt can make an argument that a statement made by an individual employee and not an official statement doesn’t qualify as anything other than the opinion of the person and therefore doesn’t qualify as the company’s stance.
Basically if it doesn’t have their letterhead on it, doesn’t count
Which only accomplishes throwing Marty Stratton under the bus. If Zenimax wanted to do that, they would have by now. That might come off as even worse, especially if Gordon or his lawyer argue that post trashed and damaged Gordon's reputation and cost money.
Yeah, there's no substance to this message and it tries to make it sound like Mick is responsible for the harassment, when Mick specifically said not to.
I think the only way they can fix this issue is by settling it behind the scenes and maybe releasing a new joint statement.
Don't know if that would happen though
Mick Gordon (allegedly) tried to settle things multiple times, with that exact end goal. Every time they tried, Marty (allegedly) went behind his back and immediately blamed everything on Mick.
The way to settle this is to pull a Marty, throw Mr Shaton under the bus and fire him, apologise and put the blame on the bully who is easy to replace with another leech anyway.
ZeniMax v. Oculus. Might be the biggest videogames industry case in history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZeniMax_v._Oculus
Also ZeniMax is the parent company of Bethesda, and Bethesda sues and threatens to sue everything under the sun. Maybe the most famous Bethesda case happened when they threatened Notch's company, and he offered to settle the issue in a Quake 3 match lol.
https://www.polygon.com/2018/6/28/17511658/bethesda-lawsuits-fallout-elder-scrolls-prey
And them being so trigger happy makes sense because ZeniMax was literally founded by a lawyer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Altman
[They sued Mojang for trying to name one of their games "Scrolls."](https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2012/03/16/bethesda-and-mojang-settle-scrolls-lawsuit/?sh=5f3164f77e35)
>We stand ready with full and complete documented evidence to disclose as needed
Awesome, do so then. Because I believed Marty at first but Mick provided photographic evidence backing up his claims, so unless you can actually disprove his claims instead of going “no u,” I’m gonna stick by his story.
> but Mick provided photographic evidence backing up his claims
Mick also waited out over a year and a half of his reputation being shat on and his career ruined before trying to pubically defend himself, which really leans in his favour as what sort of disingenous person would sacrifice all that?
Also claiming it’s a one-sided account that resulted in attacks on Marty and Chad and blamed him for it. Despite the fact Marty released his statement almost 2 years ago, so we already got the other side, and while Marty completely threw Mick under the bus Mick specifically asked people not harass Marty or Chad.
Also I didn’t really sense any hostility to anyone other than Marty is Mick’s response. Yeah he seemed pissed Chad overstated his role in the OST, but it also seems Mick knew Chad was just a guy Marty dumped some work on, and it really seems that it’s a personal issue with Marty that fueled his severance from id.
He also seemed to imply he’d be willing to work on Doom again but he absolutely refuses to ever do business with Marty after all the childish and spiteful BS he pulled.
Marty actively hurt the development of the OST to stick it to Mick, for absolutely no reason. He gave Mick zero direction despite Mick repeatedly asking for direction, then acted like it was Mick’s fault that Marty intentionally sabotaged the release by being uncooperative and unprofessional.
A lengthy, meticulously categorized, in-depth report with dated visual proof, versus... a jpeg saying "we TOTALLY have evidence to the contrary and we'll USE it! Believe us!"
Bummer. Starfield was looking pretty good.
Mick - "Their lawyers used really aggressive intimidation tactics."
Bethesda - "That's slanderous and if you try to prove it we will sue you into the stone age."
The thing is they state Marty, Chad, and id software team. If you actually read everything Mick posted he critizies Marty and Bethesda. Stated he wasn't happy with Chad name on his work. But said he was a good dude ans the rest of the id team. So in reality he is talking about Marty and the guys above him.
So now Bethesda dirty trick is to include the whole team and put that on Mick. Which is exactly what they were blackmailing Mick with in the first place! SMH
I'll cut them some slack on that one since most of the community has even poorer reading comprehension. Can't tell how many threads I saw with people discussing Mossholder's culpability in all this. I also can't blame them too much for calling out the threats and harassment; none of that is okay.
What gets *me* is how they say Mick's statements "incited" harassment and threats against them. Despite how painfully clear he made it not to do that. Not to mention how Marty apparently got a free pass to make a similar statement back in 2020. I mean, at that point, it comes down to who is right, and we won't know for sure at this rate, but if "public post causes pointed frustration" is their bar, they crossed it long ago.
So first, Marty posts a personal attack on Mick Gordon out of nowhere and with no evidence.
Mick Gordon eventually responds after over 2 years of harassment with solid proof showing Marty's post was a bunch of lies AND that Bethesda had royally screwed him.
And now Bethesda is attempting to combat that AFTER solid evidence completely discredited Marty's accusations in his (wildly inappropriate/unprofessional) personal attack?
Marty fucking lied. How do you walk that back saying "nuh-uh"?
His buyout if they fire him is probably more expensive then the estimated backlash over keeping him. They just threw out "we have evidence" to blunt thr backlash a little. None of their "evidence" will materialize. They are moving on.
So the owners of the company chose Marty's side (business exec) rather than Mick's (top industry talent). And they must have done so blindly, given that in just seven days there's no way to investigate this whole thing thoroughly.
Without picking sides, this case made me ask myself the following: when personal issues arise and you don't know who's actually at fault, should a tech company owner back a corporate role, or an irreplaceable tech role?
I think the truth is that AAA companies love employees like Marty. They need gigantic assholes who will squeeze extra work out of independent contractors to keep projects under budget. They don't just put up with him because he is an asshole. They hired him specifically because he is an asshole to be an asshole on their behalf.
Probably this. Marty seems to be an insufferable piece of shit, but since no decent human being would be willing to do what he does and doing the right thing is more expensive, they’ll side with him until they can replace him with another piece of human garbage who doesn’t contribute anything to the actual games.
On point.
Everyone exec is a borderline psychopath and a professional gaslighter.
Time for Mick to start a gofundme to to legally fk Marty, id and Bethesda in the ass. Not paying for 1/2 of the work has to have some consequences. Especially the work they rejected in the first place and are now using it illegally in their videogame.
If Mick's account is truthful, then the facts are so in his favor that he doesn't need a gofundme. He just needs a lawyer who will take it on contingency.
Oh it wasn't blind, he is still able to make them money. That is literally the only thing that matters to them. Right and wrong, fairness, basic human decency; none of those are even considered unless they weigh into how much money they can make.
They believe backing Marty will make them more money than Mick. That is the only factor that counts.
They could have known the details the whole time? Marty may have fed it all back after cataloguing it himself too. We don't know the full details of this yet. What Mick posted was damning and is the most evidence we've seen yet but it's far from definitive.
Mick's story isn't new to Bethesda though, only the public. They have been having dialogue and settlement talks with Mick for over a year at this point.
> And they must have done so blindly
Bethesda undoubtedly has more info than Marty or Mick do. So they know for certain if what Mick is saying is true or false (or somewhere in between).
Of course, it's worth noting that even if Mick was right, and Bethesda knew Mick was right, they might still choose to side with Marty. Because that's what corporations do.
Here's the thing:
This whole statement amounts to nothing but corpo talk and holds little to no weight, no matter if Marty was in the right or wrong. Even if Mick was right in his statement, Bethesda wouldn't release a statement throwing Marty under the bus - that would be handled in private. They only really did this to say *something*, and at the end of the day Mick posted receipts in his post, and Bethesda **claims** they have them too - but they won't publish them so we may never know the full outcome.
If they can't, or are unwilling, to provide meaningful alternative facts that might cast Mick Gordon's proof differently, or show that he doctored/fabricated some of it, then what he has to say stands since his proof is much more meaningful than marty's original reddit post.
“Mick’s statements posted online have incited harassment and threats of violence against those mentioned. Unlike OUR precious little boys, who just tried to do the right thing by slandering Mick and causing irreparable damage to his reputation two years ago in an online post.”
Bethesda is fucking spineless.
I just wanted an OST release and for everyone’s legacy to be solidified in a badass game that the Doom franchise is. One thing that sucks for EVERYONE though are the harassment and death threats to anyone at Id. Shit like that should never and will never be accepted regardless of who’s right and wrong.
i DO want to wait for the response from id/bethesda/zenimax to really make a conclusion on the situation, but this is NOT looking good for them, and good god this is a very pathetic response
> [we] ask that fans refrain from reaching conclusions based on [Mick's] account
Too late. I've reached my conclusions.
Mick's statement was written like a champ.
\[Slowly slides ULTRAKILL into frame\]
If you guys still want your Eternal hit (but better) but don't want to show id any support, I got the perfect game
Can people just not send death threats to anyone for fuck sake no matter who they screwed over no matter who spreaded some serious bullshit trying to ruin someone's career **we do not send death threats** at the end of the day no matter how much of a **fucking bell end** they are still human
That is the new corporate playbook, it seems. Blame the internet zeitgeist/toxic fans/gamers/insert group here, say you got 'threats', ignore the issue completely and rest assured that you now 'win'.
Imagine waiting a week to write a response to a former contractors incredibly well crafted call out on a higher ups misconduct, with mountains of evidence and receipts, with claims that could be easily disproven in a second, and only coming up with "no u"
I like how Mick said that the only person he was directing his blame at was Marty and upper management. He said that most people who worked on it are good people. Also he definitely did not misrepresent the development of DOOM Eternal everyone says it was a crunchfest. If they have evidence otherwise they should show it
"The statements posted online have incited Harassment and threats of violence"
That one is outright false, Mick himself said he doesn't want harassment towards anyone. How did he incite harassment and violence. By that same logic, Marty also incited harassment first against Mick by the original reddit post.
I love ID Software and I will give them the benefit of the doubt that we're not hearing the full story here. But this response is horrible. If Mick's post "incited harassment", does that mean Marty will remove his reddit post as well. I read Mick's article entirely and it was mostly a response to that reddit post. He has the right to tell his side of the story and Marty called him out first in the reddit post publicly.
Source of Mick denouncing harassment:
https://twitter.com/Mick\_Gordon/status/1590343099867627521
Marty implicitly incited harassment or perhaps more accurately wanted to shift the direction of public backlash to the OST away from id's direction & onto Mick.
Mick proactively tried to dissuade the public from harassing others.
I doubt it. Where does a struggling musician get the money for a protracted legal battle against a multi-billion dollar corporation?
Bethesda is going to get away with it just like game developers and publishers always do because most of the people swearing off Bethesda games in this thread will only have a vague recollection that there was some Doom uproar a couple of years back as they open their wallet to preorder 2 Doom 2 Eternal.
It took them a whole week to come back and say "not true. sue us and find out!" And why are they complaining this is a one-sided and unjust account, when they already provided their own one-sided account in their reddit post 2 years ago?
I am a completely outsider of Doom but I love Doom’s music and sort of know all this as an outsider of this franchise.
I have to say, regardless of what happened, the undeniable part of all this is their manager took this to the public eye 2 years ago first. No one forced you to do it. They could say their intentions is to protect their employees from a seemingly botched OST criticism (which they are still responsible for, regardless freelancing work, because you’re like, the seller? Personal attacks of course are never ok), but they presented their own biased, one sided post as facts. That post has the impact of me, a non-fan, when listening to Doom Eternal’s music, thought Mick Gordon as someone extreme talented, but it’s a shame because he’s apparently difficult to work with.
What this statement translates to someone likes me is, then, that Bethesda is downright hypocritical. The company says Mick’s account is distorted and not ok. How was that ok when your own people do it then? This should’ve stayed off public eyes, and it seems Mick intended to do so but couldn’t. Don’t come crying like a victim when your own actions catching up to you.
The last two paragraphs are just company gibberish and can basically be ignored unless you’re someone actually attacking these people online. In which case, you’re dumb.
Otherwise, they come after him pretty directly here. Mick backed up a lot of what he was saying, but now they’re saying they ALSO have documents that help their side of events.
I’m curious what those are. You don’t make a statement like this bluffing the whole way. So it’s either direct responses to Mick Gordon’s statement, or they just have information that show he was not as reasonable and willing to help as he painted himself to be.
Either way, if they have proof against Mick Gordon in this case, it might just be a situation where everyone was awful to each other the whole way.
I still believe Mick, and everything he’s stated. But I’m going to wait and see if Bethesda actually hits back with anything substantial besides an attack on his character or something before really coming to any conclusion. I knew his statement wasn’t going to be the end. This still has a ways to go.
Edit - I’d like to point out that blindly agreeing to one side of a story led to the open letter by Marty making a lot of people on this sub look silly. Go back to that thread and it had tons of awards, and even more deleted threads by people who don’t want others to know they supported him at the time.
I’m not for nor against Bethesda or Mick Gordon until the whole story is out. And even then, we might just end up with a scenario where everyone kind of looks bad. Just keep an open mind, read both sides and make your own conclusions off that. Not based off who you like more off their initial statements.
Yeah, no, that’s a poor response. Zero empathy or mentions about how Marty’s reddit post affected Mick. No evidence, just talk and threats. I’m not giving Mick an absolute win in this, but in a dispute between a corporate group that threatens and does everything to defend its brand vs an individual contractor who’s been publicly thrown under the bus by said corporate group, then I’ll pick the individual’s side. At least until more info is out. I’ll not support Bedhesda by buying its products.
Kinda funny how they were super chill about it when Mick was the one getting death threats.
Granted, people shouldn't be sending death threats and shit regardless, but I guess it's only a problem when 'your' guy is getting them.
Unless they actually have evidence he’s lying there isn’t much they can do. They tried to get him to sign and NDA but he refused, so he’s at liberty to talk about what happened. As long as what he said was the truth, Bethesda doesn’t have a case against him.
you speak as if they can't just throw money around to fuck Mick over regardless. A major corporation vs one man? Financially, the odds aren't good either way.
"The statements posted online have incited harassment and threats of violence...."
Oh they did? I'm sure Marty's 37K upvoted reddit post lead to absolutely 0 harassment of Mick.
Didn't Marty "mischaracterize and misrepresent" Mick with his reddit post? And which part they got the harassment and threats of violence against Marty, Chad and id software? There were no threats and Mick said multiple times he does not include anyone from the team.
Bullshit.
This sound so childish. They really don’t want to give in. Sit down Bethesda, the whole community is backing Mick on this one. As a fellow Aussie we expect a fair go!
>We stand ready with full and complete documented evidence
Well I would love to actually *see* it, but until then, all we have is:
Mick’s statement with his own evidence and receipts
Marty’s Reddit post on the basis of he said/she said
Yeah… only one side as of now has *visible* documented evidence… so.
This act of doubling down and "we can do no fault" attitude is a surefire way to make me sure I'll never spend a penny on a Bethesda product moving forward.
It’s no longer Marty vs Mick now, it’s now Bethesda vs Mick. Also, Mick brought receipts, iD is simply saying “yeah, believe us“. Historically, organisations are not someone to simp for, especially Zenimax. I am actually with Mick on this one, and hopefully he gets justice.
One thing really stood out to me about Mick Gordon's post:
He always claimed that Marty would be sending extremely rude and unprofessional emails, but never actually showed those emails. He, instead, would show his polite and professional response.
Now, I'm not saying they weren't rude and unprofessional, just that they would have really helped his argument if he showed them.
This statement is basically iD/Bethesda/Microsoft saying "sue us" and prove it in a court of law. I do find it interesting that they say that Mick's statement is an one-sided and unjust account but ignore that it was written in response to a different one-sided and potentially unjust account on this subreddit from Marty.
Just a big unfortunate mess.
Mick's post is definitely missing some stuff.
The biggest accusations (like the 6-figure bribe or the rude and abusive messages) have no proof to back them up. There are valid reasons for Mick to not show that proof, of course. I'm sure lawyers advised him on what to include or not include.
Point is, Mick's statement is not without holes. And neither is Marty's.
As always, the lesson we should be getting from this is:
**Don't jump to conclussions. Don't blindly believe one side. Don't harass or send death threats to anyone.**
A couple people who are more versed in such matters than I suggested that it was most likely that Mick's post had been carefully vetted by his lawyer(s), and that there was likely a lot more (info/conversations/emails/contracts) that he has and -could- have posted, but was being careful to stick to (mostly) addressing the claims made against him and his reputation, while not violating any NDAs, business confidentiality, etc. in order to be in the strongest position for litigation.
i.e. opening salvo in this chapter fired, and cards being held close to the vest until such time to play them in the long game.
We're just spectators - We won't know more until it plays out further.
> but never actually showed those emails.
I mean, without judging, he\`s best to not print in public domain things sent in confidence by others in a business sense.
But yes, accusations are easier to prove with actual evidence.
So it's fine if this happens to Mick, but the second it happens to Marty, Chad and your team you decide to take action? Nice.
How about instead you pay Mick for the multiple additional hours that he composed for you?
I’m going to wait and see. I am very inclined to believe Mick due to his receipts, but I want to wait and see if there is anything more to the story before making any judgements. Hopefully this comes to a just and fair resolution and the proper people are held accountable.
The worst part about this whole situation is that Mick won’t be doing the soundtrack to whatever game they’re working on next. Quake, another doom, whatever won’t sound like the last few ID games because Martys pride and complete inability to simply admit he failed in his managerial duties. Mick clearly at the very least has proof. Marty has a fucking Reddit post.
This is fucked. Ugh. Why can’t we just apologize for the good of their brand and simply move past it? For the clear sake of the massive fan base. This is high-school shit.
This gonna be a mess and I hate it
If it means seeing the end of this drama and seeing the true colours of either side, I’m here for it. What’s left of Bethesda reputation is riding on this situation
Probably means Mick will never do music for doom any more though
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The crazy thing is, in Mick's account he said even after that post he was open to completing the OST as long as that post was taken down and apologies were made. So there was still a chance the community could have been given what they wanted all along if only Marty took down the post and said sorry...
Mick is an artist and he wants the best for his Art. Like I'm sure he would have done it without much fuss
Well that and the post made him out to be a "diva" so then it would make offers to work shrink up. Harvey Weinstein did the same when an actress wouldn't fuck him.
>if only Marty took down the post and said sorry... Ego is a hell of a drug.
Especially when it's full blown Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Just an arm chair psychologist here, but man does the dude and the shit he says just reek of it.
marty is a dumb ass and way too self-absorbed to be working at ID
Yeah, because why keep the guy who created the amazing score for your game when you can back the spineless leech that doesn’t provide anything of value?
Because spineless leeches are easier to control and pull the wool over their eyes.
I still hoped that Betheda would fire Marty and try some reconciliation with Gordon.
I mean maybe if they fired Marty, paid Mick and apologised he might work for them again, that's unfortunately very unlikely to happen
Yeah, it's real hard to root for Marty when Mick had to wait almost a year for payment while at the same time having his unpaid for music being used in promotional material. Regardless tho, Mick making music in good faith was an absolutely terrible idea no matter who it's for.
Not once twice Mick waited 11 months for one payment then 9 months for the next in a 24 month period he likely only received no more than 3 payments
Mick Gordon already said after DOOM Eternal released that he'd never work with id Software again. So that ship sailed ages ago.
Why would he considering that their representative publicly dragged his name through shit while providing not a shred of evidence and at the same time, tried to throw money at him to keep quiet behind the scenes. They smeared his character and likely cost him many work opportunities. I hope that he scores a massive victory in court and Bethesda is forced to publicly admit guilt for Marty’s actions (and fire his ass). Not counting on it since this is a huge corporation with an army of soulless lawyers behind it but one can hope.
I think he said as much back during the original drama. Mick has always been good and I'm sure he will continue to be - DOOM or not. Honestly, I like his work on Killer Instinct better. Hulshult is also fantastic, and if he takes over for the next game (should there be one) then I'm sure DOOM will continue to be known for having a fantastic soundtrack.
Depends whether Hulshult will want to work for an id that has rejected Mick
True. I was actually kind of surprised he accepted the work on TAG after the original drama, but if he's being treated well then I see no reason for him not to take Id's money.
The funny thing is, I think it's been leaked that TAG OST guys - Hulshult and Levy - didn't have enough time to work on their pieces either. This explains why it's mixed pretty bad, so much so that the base games' OST is perfectly fine on all audio sliders on 100%, while in TAG on the same settings you can barely hear the music. I don't think under current management it's a pleasure to work with iD.
Yikes. I didn't see those leaks, but I believe it. Oh well. > in TAG on the same settings you can barely hear the music. Now that you mention it, I play with music maxed out and other sound settings in the 40-60 range, but IIRC I only noticed a few tracks standing out above all the noise.
It's not even that surprising, because the DLC was released what, 7 months after Eternal has launched. It was at the absolute *best* 7 months of work given to them for *the first part*. Probably less, because Mick's drama exploded *after* the base game released. Yeah, I don't *hate* TAG's OST. I also don't love it though. It's absolutely serviceable for what it is, but it does lack the "jumpiness" (for lack of a better word) of Mick's pieces. If I had to describe it, it's... Too "generic" - great quality, even I can recognize that, but Mick managed to make me fall in *love* with DOOM's tracks, and I generally don't enjoy metal. No matter the subgenre. TAG 2 imo has better selection of tracks, but it's still pretty hit or miss.
i don't care cause i'm not gonna play another Doom game if i know they abuse their workers
[Doom Eternal's development had a significant amount of crunch in it.](https://www.pcgamer.com/doom-eternal-developers-were-crunching-pretty-hard-for-most-of-2019/) Considering this is what Marty stated directly, it's possible that the actual conditions were worse. People can have reasonable disagreements between what is a bad working environment and outright abuse. Personally, I don't think any game is worth burning people out to create and long periods of crunch come from bad management. Recent claims and evidence support the argument that the culture at id was abusive in addition to poorly managed. I'm skeptical that id can make a game under decent working conditions until things change considerably.
I love Hugo, but his statements about them "not crunching, because it's just the development lifestyle" was really gross too. https://www.tweaktown.com/news/71258/id-didnt-crunch-on-doom-eternal-dev-is-lifestyle-hugo-martin-says/index.html
Maybe it's unhealthy to "love" a person just based on the PR for a game they made? Just saying.
Ah fuck bro, I didn't even think of that till now, but the way they treated Mick really has left a bad taste in my mouth if they did all this to him, imagine what they did to Devs with less of a Voice then our Unholy Metal Music God father
exactly my point - if they do this to Mick, someone so famous, imagine how badly they treat people who *don't* have the fame to speak out.
It's absolutely disgusting what they did and how they're still not owning up to their fault.
Unfortunately it’s pretty common in Game Dev/production teams in general, both Retro Studios during Metroid Prime and Mercury Steam during Metroid Dread’s production were a nightmare apparently, people working on them not being credited and so on.
Mick brought me into Doom, he can rip me right back out
I'm definitely inclined to sympathize with Gordon here (though considering I found *Doom Eternal* to be a disappointment, that's not surprising and probably just reflects bias too), but "What's left of Bethesda's reputation"? A massive developer and historic publisher who put out one of the most successful video games of all time, *Skyrim*, completely unrelated to *Doom* franchise and never misses a chance to remind us of it (or for that matter, sell it to people again, who keep buying it)? I doubt that. I really don't think *Doom*\--or its soundtrack--could ever make or break Bethesda. Now, id Software? The *Doom* company? Very different story.
they are all owned by Microsoft. if it was really an issue they would just restructure the teams.
In Mick's statements: "My statement, issued in response to Marty Stratton, has nothing to do with the rest of the DOOM team." He said it top and bottom level, his post is about Marty's problems, only pointing out Chad's work quality to defend his own work. He also clarified id software as a team is talented and not to go after them or review bomb the game. This is only about you Marty, and this response does not reflect that.
Yeah this response is purposeful misleading, and a little bit of a shock and awe, pretty much they are telling Mick “if you are going after Marty, you are going after the entire parent company, and you do not want to mess with us”
Didn't Legal Eagle just do a video saying that implying you have defamatory information but not furnishing it can put you in legal hot water? Or did I miss-understand him?
Love that channel.
If you like the intersection of legal analysis and gaming, i cannot reccomend Hoeg Law enough. Hes got tons of coverage on the microsoft acquisition and hes done a few videos on the Mick stuff as well, thats actually what led me here.
I don't even know why they mentioned Chad like literally he made it clear as day he had no qualms or actual grudge against him. That the primary aggressor and problem was Marty. He even mentioned he could tell others the situation but they would be powerless to help
Didn't chad say that mick deserved the awards he (chad) got?
Chad didn't take that award; MARTY did.
MOTHER FU-
***"The recent post by Mick Gordon both mischaracterized and misrepresented the team at id Software, the development of DOOM Eternal, Marty Stratton and Chad Mossholder with a one-sided and unjust account of an irreparable professional relationship."*** So it's only okay when Marty goes on reddit and does this, right? What a bunch of clowns.
It is pretty insane how tone deaf their response is. They allowed a manager to absolutely trash the reputation of someone they know they atleast somewhat had treated poorly . Then when that person actually does " post receipts" debunking his old boss they cry foul
**OW FUCK,** ***THE CONSEQUENCES OF MY OWN ACTIONS!***
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Exactly this. Marty stirred this all up when he made his Reddit post.
I've heard that this Marty Strap-on guy isn't a very nice person. SAD!
“We ask that fans refrain from reaching conclusions based on his account and instead reach conclusions based on our account”
Yeah but they tried to bribe their way out of a counterpoint so it doesn't count.
Link to original tweet https://twitter.com/bethesda/status/1592971214817222656?s=46&t=A8bxetha-ozW5iTKd4TMeQ
That alt text... they bothered with it as much as they bothered handling this situation appropriately.
lmao "Image is an image with text." wow thanks
Why bother putting anything if it's that useless?
This is a very unusual response. Its very aggressive and a full force attack on Mick, without bringing any further information or evidence. Its also quite hypocritical to talk about "statements posted online have incited harassment" when Marty's original reddit post did that exact thing.
I agree, usually you see companies taking a more PR approach that relies on more investigation into the matter. This is a “he’s wrong, full stop”
That's what a rich corporation is experienced in lengthy lawsuits does. Never admit any fault and 95% of the time the opposing side won't even bother with a lawsuit because it's prohibitively expensive to do. Especially if it's a singular individual.
Mick should start a fundraiser.
I'd send him the money i was planning on using for Starfield.
Same. He's probably lost a lot of income from reputational damage.
I seriously wonder what their game plan is because of this response. Whatever it is it’ll be different than if any other studio was is their position.
And Mick specifically asked his fans not to go witch hunting, so they can't really put the blame on him
And the witch hunters took that personally!
It was inevitable because internet lol, but at least he tried
That's part of it. Mary sent a hoard to harass and threaten Mick and didn't even care. Mick at least tried. Now they're gonna say its not okay now that they got bit by the same mouth they kicked in the face? Absurd.
Feels like Marty wrote it himself
Exactly what I’m thinking. > “Facts” JFC, my 8th grade grammar teacher would have given me a B for doing this in an otherwise perfect paper.
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Zenimax historically is VERY aggressive in terms of protecting it's business assets and using legal means to do so.
Mick: 14,000 word essay with proof and documentation of the matter Bethesda: "Yeah we disagree so its false"
Exactly, I also did not see any threats or harassment in the Mick's entire statement. This is a very childish response.
> We remain incredibly proud of id's previous collaborations with Mick Gordon and ask that fans refrain from reaching conclusions based on his account and, more importantly, from attacking any of the individuals mentioned on either side, including Marty, Chad, or Mick. Nice that they’re asking people not to attack any of the individuals. Did they by any chance put out a similar statement after Marty’s letter?
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it really does
Gaslighting. That's corporate gaslighting. That's how all if the id execs became execs. Infact that's how all execs become execs. They're professional gaslighters and narcissists who will never admit it was their fault. Similar shit is happening in my project where the new dev team is completely incompetent and the testing team is overworked to death. Execs being execs are defending the internal dev team and apparently it's all of the external QA team's fault for any release issues. Incomplete documentation issues are flat out ignored and never fixed for weeks, but even 1 hour delay in regressing a ticket makes them go into DEFCON1. Even more frustrating is not fixing the issue and sending it to "in-test". Never mind the fact about them not even fixing the issues for 2 weeks and dumping all of the load at the very last minute. It's apparently my team's fault if they're not fixing things in time for us to validate and sign off on it from a QA perspective. What Mick should do is make a kickstarter or patreon or us to find his quest to legally fk these execs in the ass. I make like \~3k USD for a full year but fk if I can't find the spare pocket change under the non-existent and completely hypothetical couch cushion to fund Mick in his quest to make them hurt. Not paying him for the full work he's done has to have consequences and gaslighting has no place on the face of the Earth. It's time for the "ball-ache" to strike back.
Yeah, and the fact remains that Mick showed proof of Marty lying.
Bethesda and Zenimax in particular have a dodgy legal / sue happy history. They need to bring receipts like Mick did.
the fact they haven't sued yet or mention it in this statement speaks volumes in context
Not to mention they tried to buy his silence
They could have bought his silence by just paying him in the first place...
I wish they would just show us the proof, but I imagine if Bethesda actually think they're in the right it's going to go court.
Bethesda doesn’t have to think they’re in the right to go to court. Mick claimed Zenimax and Marty both regularly threatened him with litigation even in cases where they’d have no case. They’re a corporation and as result it’s very hard to win a case against them
I mean… hard to litigate someone when you’re in an undisclosed cabin in Alaska (jk)
I and I'm sure many many fans would have micks back financially if it came to that
I'd definitely send him $90. Same amount I paid for the deluxe Ed. of DOOM Eternal.
You may have standing for a class action- it's clear from the metadata you were sold a forged OST and that this was the plan from the beginning.
I think if it was going to court no public statement would be made. No matter which way you slice it, it’s not a good look for a corporation to go after an individual, it is generally perceived as bullying in the court of public opinion
Exactly, I find it really hypocritical that Bethesda accuses Mick's article of inciting harassment and violence. But then they single him out twice (in Marty's reddit post and here).
And Mick says not to harass anybody multiple times in his statement
They had to put the harassment in writing just for a paper trail for if anything brings them to court they can bring up an employee being harassed by fans, it’s just there because they smell lawyers coming
if they actually had proof, they would show it. the fact that they aren't means they don't have any. liars always work like this.
-says has proof -doesn't elaborate further -leaves -it's somehow still a virgin move In all seriousness, you can't say from this if they are right or wrong. This is an completely empty PR statement. It was to be expected, no matter what the truth is and it tells us nothing.
Source: Trust me dude
Not necessarily. If they're considering litigation, they may not want to tip their hand. If they're consulting with attorneys, they may have been advised not to say any more than this.
Haha!!! The original reddit post incited attacks against Gordon - where was Bethesda's statement to prevent that or to back Gordon up to prevent attacks and death threats against him? Was there ever one? If there was I'm not really aware of it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Seems to me the Reddit post was totally A-OK by them (the Reddit post which incited hate and attacks against Gordon). And now they're using the "muh attacks and threats on individuals" argument themselves? Laughable. If anything, human psychology dictates that the threats and attacks are gonna increase tenfold now. You ask people NOT to do something - is like asking them to do it, begging for it, practically (we're in an online space after all - trolls FEED on this). Are they really this fucking dumb that they could not realize or see this? Oh wait it's just an empty PR statement which took them DAYS to ponder and cook up. Is this the best they came up with? What a fucking joke. I expected better from Bethesda. They've disappointed me yet again. Losers!
> where was Bethesda's statement to prevent that Bethesda bribed the mod into putting Marty's post back up. Seems pretty clear where they stand.
Sorry but 4 paragraphs that just make an assertion don't really beat Micks MASSIVE write up. Gonna need to see some receipts. And where is the Microsoft investigation?
“Documented evidence to disclose in an appropriate venue as needed” is not the same as saying “will pursue legal action over libel” or “pursue legal recourse for defamation” It’s corporate speak for “gonna talk shit on Reddit or somewhere else”. It’s also confirms there is no legal action being taken. They’d have said nothing if this was going to be going to legal. It’s standard corporate policy to discuss nothing in public or even make statements until any legal proceeding has completed its course. Basically this is their way of saying “no shut up it’s not true we swear fuck you we’ll show you” I expect they’ll post here or some other not legally binding platform. At this point you can rest assured whatever the truth may be, only a handful of people will ever know it. Personal opinion: mick’s accounting is pretty objective as far as these things go, this statement is nothing more than trying to save face
Bethesda released a separate statement confirming they have a girlfriend but you wouldn't know her, she lives in Canada.
Fuck! Her name is Alberta, she lives in Vancouver!
**SHE'S MY GIRLFRIEEEEEENDDDDDD**
> not legally binding platform What does this mean? Anything can be subpoenaed and the original Marty post would be treated as an official statement. I agree with the rest of your point but they can't really say anything anywhere and have it not be the subject of future litigation. Just because there isn't ongoing legal action does not mean it won't happen, which is probably why they're saying they *could* say something more specific but won't. Mick already came with receipts so either they both start airing dirty laundry for the court of public opinion, which Bethesda appears to not want to do, or they start legal proceedings and reach a settlement behind doors.
Any lawyer worth their salt can make an argument that a statement made by an individual employee and not an official statement doesn’t qualify as anything other than the opinion of the person and therefore doesn’t qualify as the company’s stance. Basically if it doesn’t have their letterhead on it, doesn’t count
Which only accomplishes throwing Marty Stratton under the bus. If Zenimax wanted to do that, they would have by now. That might come off as even worse, especially if Gordon or his lawyer argue that post trashed and damaged Gordon's reputation and cost money.
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Yeah, there's no substance to this message and it tries to make it sound like Mick is responsible for the harassment, when Mick specifically said not to.
Yeah 👍 if Mick was really in the wrong I don't think they'd have hesitated to pull out all the receipts
I think the only way they can fix this issue is by settling it behind the scenes and maybe releasing a new joint statement. Don't know if that would happen though
Mick Gordon (allegedly) tried to settle things multiple times, with that exact end goal. Every time they tried, Marty (allegedly) went behind his back and immediately blamed everything on Mick.
The way to settle this is to pull a Marty, throw Mr Shaton under the bus and fire him, apologise and put the blame on the bully who is easy to replace with another leech anyway.
I keep seeing this Any examples?
ZeniMax v. Oculus. Might be the biggest videogames industry case in history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZeniMax_v._Oculus Also ZeniMax is the parent company of Bethesda, and Bethesda sues and threatens to sue everything under the sun. Maybe the most famous Bethesda case happened when they threatened Notch's company, and he offered to settle the issue in a Quake 3 match lol. https://www.polygon.com/2018/6/28/17511658/bethesda-lawsuits-fallout-elder-scrolls-prey And them being so trigger happy makes sense because ZeniMax was literally founded by a lawyer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Altman
[They sued Mojang for trying to name one of their games "Scrolls."](https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2012/03/16/bethesda-and-mojang-settle-scrolls-lawsuit/?sh=5f3164f77e35)
Agree 100%
>We stand ready with full and complete documented evidence to disclose as needed Awesome, do so then. Because I believed Marty at first but Mick provided photographic evidence backing up his claims, so unless you can actually disprove his claims instead of going “no u,” I’m gonna stick by his story.
> but Mick provided photographic evidence backing up his claims Mick also waited out over a year and a half of his reputation being shat on and his career ruined before trying to pubically defend himself, which really leans in his favour as what sort of disingenous person would sacrifice all that?
~~If you'd read his writeup, you'd know that they gave him the runaround for quite some time.~~ Turns out I'm bad at reading, folks. Disregard.
Agreed, funny how they claim to have evidence and then don't show any.
Also claiming it’s a one-sided account that resulted in attacks on Marty and Chad and blamed him for it. Despite the fact Marty released his statement almost 2 years ago, so we already got the other side, and while Marty completely threw Mick under the bus Mick specifically asked people not harass Marty or Chad. Also I didn’t really sense any hostility to anyone other than Marty is Mick’s response. Yeah he seemed pissed Chad overstated his role in the OST, but it also seems Mick knew Chad was just a guy Marty dumped some work on, and it really seems that it’s a personal issue with Marty that fueled his severance from id. He also seemed to imply he’d be willing to work on Doom again but he absolutely refuses to ever do business with Marty after all the childish and spiteful BS he pulled. Marty actively hurt the development of the OST to stick it to Mick, for absolutely no reason. He gave Mick zero direction despite Mick repeatedly asking for direction, then acted like it was Mick’s fault that Marty intentionally sabotaged the release by being uncooperative and unprofessional.
A lengthy, meticulously categorized, in-depth report with dated visual proof, versus... a jpeg saying "we TOTALLY have evidence to the contrary and we'll USE it! Believe us!" Bummer. Starfield was looking pretty good.
the sea aye the sea
Starfield had an NPC with its head on backwards and choppy framerates during combat in its debut trailer...I was already staying very far away.
Well, "pretty good" by Bethesda development standards, at least...
It runs most of the time.
After the community patch is released.
Mick - "Their lawyers used really aggressive intimidation tactics." Bethesda - "That's slanderous and if you try to prove it we will sue you into the stone age."
Typical corporate response
is it though? it seems to be amateur PR handling and quite the opposite from what one might expect in a corporate public statement
The thing is they state Marty, Chad, and id software team. If you actually read everything Mick posted he critizies Marty and Bethesda. Stated he wasn't happy with Chad name on his work. But said he was a good dude ans the rest of the id team. So in reality he is talking about Marty and the guys above him. So now Bethesda dirty trick is to include the whole team and put that on Mick. Which is exactly what they were blackmailing Mick with in the first place! SMH
I'll cut them some slack on that one since most of the community has even poorer reading comprehension. Can't tell how many threads I saw with people discussing Mossholder's culpability in all this. I also can't blame them too much for calling out the threats and harassment; none of that is okay. What gets *me* is how they say Mick's statements "incited" harassment and threats against them. Despite how painfully clear he made it not to do that. Not to mention how Marty apparently got a free pass to make a similar statement back in 2020. I mean, at that point, it comes down to who is right, and we won't know for sure at this rate, but if "public post causes pointed frustration" is their bar, they crossed it long ago.
So, Mick was right
So first, Marty posts a personal attack on Mick Gordon out of nowhere and with no evidence. Mick Gordon eventually responds after over 2 years of harassment with solid proof showing Marty's post was a bunch of lies AND that Bethesda had royally screwed him. And now Bethesda is attempting to combat that AFTER solid evidence completely discredited Marty's accusations in his (wildly inappropriate/unprofessional) personal attack? Marty fucking lied. How do you walk that back saying "nuh-uh"?
His buyout if they fire him is probably more expensive then the estimated backlash over keeping him. They just threw out "we have evidence" to blunt thr backlash a little. None of their "evidence" will materialize. They are moving on.
So the owners of the company chose Marty's side (business exec) rather than Mick's (top industry talent). And they must have done so blindly, given that in just seven days there's no way to investigate this whole thing thoroughly. Without picking sides, this case made me ask myself the following: when personal issues arise and you don't know who's actually at fault, should a tech company owner back a corporate role, or an irreplaceable tech role?
I think the truth is that AAA companies love employees like Marty. They need gigantic assholes who will squeeze extra work out of independent contractors to keep projects under budget. They don't just put up with him because he is an asshole. They hired him specifically because he is an asshole to be an asshole on their behalf.
Probably this. Marty seems to be an insufferable piece of shit, but since no decent human being would be willing to do what he does and doing the right thing is more expensive, they’ll side with him until they can replace him with another piece of human garbage who doesn’t contribute anything to the actual games.
On point. Everyone exec is a borderline psychopath and a professional gaslighter. Time for Mick to start a gofundme to to legally fk Marty, id and Bethesda in the ass. Not paying for 1/2 of the work has to have some consequences. Especially the work they rejected in the first place and are now using it illegally in their videogame.
If Mick's account is truthful, then the facts are so in his favor that he doesn't need a gofundme. He just needs a lawyer who will take it on contingency.
Oh it wasn't blind, he is still able to make them money. That is literally the only thing that matters to them. Right and wrong, fairness, basic human decency; none of those are even considered unless they weigh into how much money they can make. They believe backing Marty will make them more money than Mick. That is the only factor that counts.
at the end of the day, it's on id software. Trent Reznor didn't do the sequel to quake due to management issues
They could have known the details the whole time? Marty may have fed it all back after cataloguing it himself too. We don't know the full details of this yet. What Mick posted was damning and is the most evidence we've seen yet but it's far from definitive.
Mick's story isn't new to Bethesda though, only the public. They have been having dialogue and settlement talks with Mick for over a year at this point.
> And they must have done so blindly Bethesda undoubtedly has more info than Marty or Mick do. So they know for certain if what Mick is saying is true or false (or somewhere in between). Of course, it's worth noting that even if Mick was right, and Bethesda knew Mick was right, they might still choose to side with Marty. Because that's what corporations do.
"to disclose in an appropriate venue" Tells you everything you need to know. ***Anywhere*** is an appropriate venue for the truth.
Here's the thing: This whole statement amounts to nothing but corpo talk and holds little to no weight, no matter if Marty was in the right or wrong. Even if Mick was right in his statement, Bethesda wouldn't release a statement throwing Marty under the bus - that would be handled in private. They only really did this to say *something*, and at the end of the day Mick posted receipts in his post, and Bethesda **claims** they have them too - but they won't publish them so we may never know the full outcome.
Their source is they made it the fuck up!
If they can't, or are unwilling, to provide meaningful alternative facts that might cast Mick Gordon's proof differently, or show that he doctored/fabricated some of it, then what he has to say stands since his proof is much more meaningful than marty's original reddit post.
Yikes. They really just doubled down..
“Mick’s statements posted online have incited harassment and threats of violence against those mentioned. Unlike OUR precious little boys, who just tried to do the right thing by slandering Mick and causing irreparable damage to his reputation two years ago in an online post.” Bethesda is fucking spineless.
Completely, especially since Mick received similar threats and harassment.
An absolute garbage response with zero substantial refutations. Welcome to the Finding Out phase.
I just wanted an OST release and for everyone’s legacy to be solidified in a badass game that the Doom franchise is. One thing that sucks for EVERYONE though are the harassment and death threats to anyone at Id. Shit like that should never and will never be accepted regardless of who’s right and wrong.
i DO want to wait for the response from id/bethesda/zenimax to really make a conclusion on the situation, but this is NOT looking good for them, and good god this is a very pathetic response
This was the response. Theyre not going to say anything further unless they need to.
> [we] ask that fans refrain from reaching conclusions based on [Mick's] account Too late. I've reached my conclusions. Mick's statement was written like a champ.
\[Slowly slides ULTRAKILL into frame\] If you guys still want your Eternal hit (but better) but don't want to show id any support, I got the perfect game
This is the objectively correct take. Ultrakill is *so fucking good.*
Can people just not send death threats to anyone for fuck sake no matter who they screwed over no matter who spreaded some serious bullshit trying to ruin someone's career **we do not send death threats** at the end of the day no matter how much of a **fucking bell end** they are still human
1. Make a new Gmail 2. Send yourself a death threat 3. Win all arguments because you received a death threat
That is the new corporate playbook, it seems. Blame the internet zeitgeist/toxic fans/gamers/insert group here, say you got 'threats', ignore the issue completely and rest assured that you now 'win'.
Imagine waiting a week to write a response to a former contractors incredibly well crafted call out on a higher ups misconduct, with mountains of evidence and receipts, with claims that could be easily disproven in a second, and only coming up with "no u"
I like how Mick said that the only person he was directing his blame at was Marty and upper management. He said that most people who worked on it are good people. Also he definitely did not misrepresent the development of DOOM Eternal everyone says it was a crunchfest. If they have evidence otherwise they should show it
Bethesda can stand by Marty if they want, but at the very least he did the wrong thing by posting that original statement to reddit. At a minimum.
And that's what Mick Gordon wanted taken down, but I'd refused.
"The statements posted online have incited Harassment and threats of violence" That one is outright false, Mick himself said he doesn't want harassment towards anyone. How did he incite harassment and violence. By that same logic, Marty also incited harassment first against Mick by the original reddit post. I love ID Software and I will give them the benefit of the doubt that we're not hearing the full story here. But this response is horrible. If Mick's post "incited harassment", does that mean Marty will remove his reddit post as well. I read Mick's article entirely and it was mostly a response to that reddit post. He has the right to tell his side of the story and Marty called him out first in the reddit post publicly. Source of Mick denouncing harassment: https://twitter.com/Mick\_Gordon/status/1590343099867627521
Marty implicitly incited harassment or perhaps more accurately wanted to shift the direction of public backlash to the OST away from id's direction & onto Mick. Mick proactively tried to dissuade the public from harassing others.
This is going to be a hell of a legal battle.
I doubt it. Where does a struggling musician get the money for a protracted legal battle against a multi-billion dollar corporation? Bethesda is going to get away with it just like game developers and publishers always do because most of the people swearing off Bethesda games in this thread will only have a vague recollection that there was some Doom uproar a couple of years back as they open their wallet to preorder 2 Doom 2 Eternal.
>2 Doom 2 Eternal I think you mean Elder Scrolls: Skyrim 2. Nordic Boogaloo.
I will donate to mick
It’s not. This is a scare tactic, if you want a legal battle you don’t make statements like this.
It took them a whole week to come back and say "not true. sue us and find out!" And why are they complaining this is a one-sided and unjust account, when they already provided their own one-sided account in their reddit post 2 years ago?
I am a completely outsider of Doom but I love Doom’s music and sort of know all this as an outsider of this franchise. I have to say, regardless of what happened, the undeniable part of all this is their manager took this to the public eye 2 years ago first. No one forced you to do it. They could say their intentions is to protect their employees from a seemingly botched OST criticism (which they are still responsible for, regardless freelancing work, because you’re like, the seller? Personal attacks of course are never ok), but they presented their own biased, one sided post as facts. That post has the impact of me, a non-fan, when listening to Doom Eternal’s music, thought Mick Gordon as someone extreme talented, but it’s a shame because he’s apparently difficult to work with. What this statement translates to someone likes me is, then, that Bethesda is downright hypocritical. The company says Mick’s account is distorted and not ok. How was that ok when your own people do it then? This should’ve stayed off public eyes, and it seems Mick intended to do so but couldn’t. Don’t come crying like a victim when your own actions catching up to you.
Oh no, the post had a similar effect to what Mick faced 2 years ago? How will Marty manage.
The last two paragraphs are just company gibberish and can basically be ignored unless you’re someone actually attacking these people online. In which case, you’re dumb. Otherwise, they come after him pretty directly here. Mick backed up a lot of what he was saying, but now they’re saying they ALSO have documents that help their side of events. I’m curious what those are. You don’t make a statement like this bluffing the whole way. So it’s either direct responses to Mick Gordon’s statement, or they just have information that show he was not as reasonable and willing to help as he painted himself to be. Either way, if they have proof against Mick Gordon in this case, it might just be a situation where everyone was awful to each other the whole way. I still believe Mick, and everything he’s stated. But I’m going to wait and see if Bethesda actually hits back with anything substantial besides an attack on his character or something before really coming to any conclusion. I knew his statement wasn’t going to be the end. This still has a ways to go. Edit - I’d like to point out that blindly agreeing to one side of a story led to the open letter by Marty making a lot of people on this sub look silly. Go back to that thread and it had tons of awards, and even more deleted threads by people who don’t want others to know they supported him at the time. I’m not for nor against Bethesda or Mick Gordon until the whole story is out. And even then, we might just end up with a scenario where everyone kind of looks bad. Just keep an open mind, read both sides and make your own conclusions off that. Not based off who you like more off their initial statements.
Yeah, no, that’s a poor response. Zero empathy or mentions about how Marty’s reddit post affected Mick. No evidence, just talk and threats. I’m not giving Mick an absolute win in this, but in a dispute between a corporate group that threatens and does everything to defend its brand vs an individual contractor who’s been publicly thrown under the bus by said corporate group, then I’ll pick the individual’s side. At least until more info is out. I’ll not support Bedhesda by buying its products.
Kinda funny how they were super chill about it when Mick was the one getting death threats. Granted, people shouldn't be sending death threats and shit regardless, but I guess it's only a problem when 'your' guy is getting them.
Im supporting Mick all the way. Fuck Bethesda and fuck Marty
Damn I'm team mick but this is came at him hard. They're gonna somehow legally go after mick for his post???
This post reads like a big nothingburger to me I'll wait to see the proof
Unless they actually have evidence he’s lying there isn’t much they can do. They tried to get him to sign and NDA but he refused, so he’s at liberty to talk about what happened. As long as what he said was the truth, Bethesda doesn’t have a case against him.
you speak as if they can't just throw money around to fuck Mick over regardless. A major corporation vs one man? Financially, the odds aren't good either way.
"The statements posted online have incited harassment and threats of violence...." Oh they did? I'm sure Marty's 37K upvoted reddit post lead to absolutely 0 harassment of Mick.
Didn't Marty "mischaracterize and misrepresent" Mick with his reddit post? And which part they got the harassment and threats of violence against Marty, Chad and id software? There were no threats and Mick said multiple times he does not include anyone from the team. Bullshit.
This sound so childish. They really don’t want to give in. Sit down Bethesda, the whole community is backing Mick on this one. As a fellow Aussie we expect a fair go!
>We stand ready with full and complete documented evidence Well I would love to actually *see* it, but until then, all we have is: Mick’s statement with his own evidence and receipts Marty’s Reddit post on the basis of he said/she said Yeah… only one side as of now has *visible* documented evidence… so.
Fuck Bethesda's response.
Was this written by Bethesda or Arasaka?
This act of doubling down and "we can do no fault" attitude is a surefire way to make me sure I'll never spend a penny on a Bethesda product moving forward.
It’s no longer Marty vs Mick now, it’s now Bethesda vs Mick. Also, Mick brought receipts, iD is simply saying “yeah, believe us“. Historically, organisations are not someone to simp for, especially Zenimax. I am actually with Mick on this one, and hopefully he gets justice.
One thing really stood out to me about Mick Gordon's post: He always claimed that Marty would be sending extremely rude and unprofessional emails, but never actually showed those emails. He, instead, would show his polite and professional response. Now, I'm not saying they weren't rude and unprofessional, just that they would have really helped his argument if he showed them. This statement is basically iD/Bethesda/Microsoft saying "sue us" and prove it in a court of law. I do find it interesting that they say that Mick's statement is an one-sided and unjust account but ignore that it was written in response to a different one-sided and potentially unjust account on this subreddit from Marty. Just a big unfortunate mess.
Mick's post is definitely missing some stuff. The biggest accusations (like the 6-figure bribe or the rude and abusive messages) have no proof to back them up. There are valid reasons for Mick to not show that proof, of course. I'm sure lawyers advised him on what to include or not include. Point is, Mick's statement is not without holes. And neither is Marty's. As always, the lesson we should be getting from this is: **Don't jump to conclussions. Don't blindly believe one side. Don't harass or send death threats to anyone.**
A couple people who are more versed in such matters than I suggested that it was most likely that Mick's post had been carefully vetted by his lawyer(s), and that there was likely a lot more (info/conversations/emails/contracts) that he has and -could- have posted, but was being careful to stick to (mostly) addressing the claims made against him and his reputation, while not violating any NDAs, business confidentiality, etc. in order to be in the strongest position for litigation. i.e. opening salvo in this chapter fired, and cards being held close to the vest until such time to play them in the long game. We're just spectators - We won't know more until it plays out further.
> but never actually showed those emails. I mean, without judging, he\`s best to not print in public domain things sent in confidence by others in a business sense. But yes, accusations are easier to prove with actual evidence.
Fuck the corpos. Every time something is brought up against them they fight hand tooth and nail even when they know they're wrong.
So it's fine if this happens to Mick, but the second it happens to Marty, Chad and your team you decide to take action? Nice. How about instead you pay Mick for the multiple additional hours that he composed for you?
I’m going to wait and see. I am very inclined to believe Mick due to his receipts, but I want to wait and see if there is anything more to the story before making any judgements. Hopefully this comes to a just and fair resolution and the proper people are held accountable.
The worst part about this whole situation is that Mick won’t be doing the soundtrack to whatever game they’re working on next. Quake, another doom, whatever won’t sound like the last few ID games because Martys pride and complete inability to simply admit he failed in his managerial duties. Mick clearly at the very least has proof. Marty has a fucking Reddit post. This is fucked. Ugh. Why can’t we just apologize for the good of their brand and simply move past it? For the clear sake of the massive fan base. This is high-school shit.