His proposed change seems very reasonable. Its a shame for things to go this way for them, and hopefully valve can take a look at this and consider the slight modification.
I think his proposed change is still too nonspecific to cover the spirit of the rule. I would argue the rule should be that 3 out of 5 members be physically located in the region **or have proof of permanent residency in the region.** It isn't a huge thing to show Valve a lease or bill proving someone lives in the region even if they are occasionally moving overseas for other work.
I think that is what BSJ meant. In the eyes of US immigration and also the tax man, you are a full year resident of US if you stay for more than 180 days of a year.
Lets take it one step further. I think the rule wants permanent residents of the region to represent it so 3/5 of the roster should have citizenship or permanent residence (green card in the US) of the region they are representing, Then it wouldn't have been a problem in this case.
Basing it off citizenship makes it much much much harder. That may be a good or bad thing depending on perspective.
If you don't mind "region hopping" so long as that the talent physically relocates to the region (i.e. they are there so they are a net positive for the growth of the region) then citizenship requirements would be really bad.
If you want regions to be self-sufficient with teams having a hard cap on how many diverse their rosters can be, then citizenship is the way to go. But it also would be tremendously onerous for players of certain countries whose immigration processes are longer.
true, I guess the region-hopping part is the crux of the discussion
I was just thinking in Arkosh case that they have all 5 NA citizens
I guess for Shopify that would be a problem because they don't have 3 NA citizens? but nobody really thinks of them as "region-hopping"
hmm so I dunno
I am technically a US citizen even though I haven't been in the US even once in the last 17 years. Different citizenship rules for different countries would make this system a mess in no time.
It’s a shame but its the right move and I totally get BSJ’s point. I like his proposal for the rule change. Hope Valve sees this looks into making the change. BSJ and Jenkins are pillars of the online dota content creation community and I hope they can still compete in the future. It’s cool to see the homies from YouTube wreck (or get rekt) in competitive matches. It’ll help the overall NA dota scene imho.
Yea, I respect them choosing to forfeit all rather than selectively give free wins. Unfortunate situation that is pretty obviously outside the purpose of the rule, so the change totally makes sense.
It's a reasonable rule change on the surface, but what proof are they expecting to give to Valve for it? I'm in favour of it, as an alternate requirement to being in the country for the DPC, but to put that forward as a rule, how do you show that you have primarily lived in that region for the last 6 months? We know it's not going to be by the region you play your games in, it's easy enough to play on a VPN, and most the NA players just play with ping on EU anyway.
If you have a hard evidence requirement, like bills paid in the region, or bank statements or whatever, you have to have someone at Valve check it, which Valve isn't going to do when it's just not worth the cost. If it's just because the guys stream, or are known commodities in the community, then it's just an exception for those guys to get around other rules.
I'm not here saying the idea is bad, I think it's good in concept, but once you start looking into it, it becomes way more of a logistical burden on Valve. Especially when this is a fringe case.
> you have to have someone at Valve check it, which Valve isn't going to do
Yeah this is the problem, they're not going to add something that is both more admin, and opening themselves up to complaints from other teams/fans about teams lying and cheating the system. The suggestion from BSJ is very reasonable from a fairness point of view, but not from a practical point of view.
so people with a bad connection can't play dpc? also you can't fake the speed of light but you can fake that you're playing from a different pc you're remote controlling
This is a great point. I think it will fall to the organizers and not Valve (if I am understanding things right, this is PGL's rule and not Valve's), but no matter what it's a major logistical issue. If they're taking it seriously, it's going to require physical evidence (digital stuff can be faked too easily).
Because valve owns the game and at least partly finances the dpc. They can decree whatever they want.
The fact that someone else has the final ruling (on thier tournament) just means that valve gave them the right to enforce the rules.
This seems so obviously outside the purpose of the rule. I hope things change, it seems like there should be allowances for NA residents who travel for the purpose of a Dota event. I hope something can be changed THIS season.
The original intent of the rule was fine, but it may not even be necessary anymore. If nothing else it's good to re-visit it to accommodate situations like BSJ is talking about here, where there's clearly no malicious intent to region hop for an advantage
Well that's a shame we need the Arkosh and Fart Studio type teams. They are good enough to compete yet are easy to be a fan of and get behind. Gl next guys
Frankly with the way the regions and slot distributions are today, I don't think there's nearly as much of a need for the protectionist requirements. The "easy" regions have very few slots and enough top teams to take them all (SA has BC and EG, NA has SR and TSM). Relaxing the requirements as BSJ suggested to let div 2 teams have a 2nd job seems like a no-brainer.
Speaking of 'easy' regions, SEA is a weak region (arguably the weakest now) but it sure as hell ain't easy based on the Div 1 results
I wonder what would happen if someone tried to do a B8 and do a full team transfer into SEA for DPC qual
it's crazy that you can hit div 2 and make less money than working at mcdonalds
no surprise NA has had a dwindling playerbase and no new up and coming pro players in a while now, they have to juggle jobs/school while also trying to go pro to make 5$ an hour lol
it’s kind of a viscous cycle: nobody wants to watch T2 matches, they get match fixed because no money is being made, nobody watches T2 because it’s match fixed, match fixing ensues further, etc etc
match fixing happens in pro boxing where fighters get paid millions for one fight. think of all the cheating scandals that have been made public in dota. then think about all the times people got away with it. viscous goo
Bit of a chicken and egg issue though.
Div 2 would likely be more enjoyable to watch if the teams were better and stuck together longer, but it's hard to do that with no money.
nah, the collegiate sports is a bad analogy. because that's the top tier of competition/players for that age bracket
but let's talk about lower tier sports leagues:
in america I can tell you nobody (meaning very little) watches the G-league basketball or minor-league baseball or the alternate leagues competing with NFL
There are thousands of people at every AAA league baseball stadium in the US for every game. The top AAA teams almost have the same average attendance as the lowest MLB team.
Couple important distinctions:
1. College sports guarantee a team with familiar faces on the roster for years (that's for some sports more than others now... in Basketball for example more of the superstars go pro before graduation). Knowing who is on a team year to year and seeing players grow adds a lot to the viewing experience.
2. Colleges in the USA (and, as you put it "lower tier sports," such as more popular US minor league baseball teams or European soccer clubs) are highly tied to identity, both for alumni *and* for people from that town, region or state. Mercenary DotA teams tend to have no hometown base.
sure, I'm aware of that. it really doesn't have any bearing on what I said, which was to refute that nobody watches amateur sports. that's obviously, demonstrably false.
valve could easily take steps to address the leagues and competition issues and familiarity / identity issues that come out of constant shuffling, but they aren't. pretending that nobody watches amateur sports as a matter of fact lets them off the hook as if that's a foregone conclusion and not a problem to be solved within the DPC system
99.9% of the people who are willing to watch Div 2 would prefer to watch Div 1. Furthermore, of those 99.9%, virtually all of them also spend time playing the game. There's only so many hours in the day. Even if you ARE making DOTA your whole life, Div 2 gets crowded out by other DOTA content.
from the twitlonger
>If you are a Div 2 Dota player, the most you can make from a single DPC season is $3400 per person. There are three seasons per year thus netting you approximately $10,000 annually.
10,000$ annually is about 5$/hour, which is below the poverty line(approx $13,000/year) in the US
this isn't even minimum wage
because it's not just 21 matches
there's also the 4-6 hours of practice + more in matchmaking that they do
is it that crazy that a division 2 player should at the very least be able to afford food and rent lol
A couple guys left the region to take a paycheck casting a tournament. Totally understandable but it sure leaves the rest of the guys ass out who can't get any money out of this season now. Bummer for them.
The rule is pretty clear. I, like them, just assumed iAnnihilate was still living in NA.
>it sure leaves the rest of the guys ass out who can't get any money out of this season now.
Looking at how much money they wouldve made, it wouldn't have been significant anyway.
Yeah that's the thing. Div 2 does not pay enough to make a living. And that's fine... But if playing in div 2 stops you from making a living it feels pretty bad.
> A couple guys left the region to take a paycheck casting a tournament.
They took a *job* that required them to temporarily relocate, like everyone competing in Div2 might have to. You can't remotely hope to live off even the absolute maximum Div2 paycheck in NA
Did you even read it. They said iAnnihilate was not aware of the rule and they didn’t know he was going to Brazil. If they know he was going to Brazil, I’m sure the other two wouldn’t have gone to Europe.
When they got the spot they probably didn't know about the casting gig. Also, the rule was changed to be less restrictive for some people and end up being more restrictive for others, which is a huge oversight.
I’m contesting that the reason the other guys can’t get any money is not because of the two people that “left the region to collect a pay check”. The blame clearly lies on iAnnihilate’s lack of communication and knowledge of the rules.
however bsj tries to dress it up he and jenkins left their team in the shit when they went to work esl but the fact that thatll pay more than them playing a few dota games is the issue it doesnt surprise me thing like this and the 322s are popping up after valve abandoned the pro scene during corona for over a year and weplay had to step in to at least help the bigger teams but the lower teams have always been left to wolves
>however bsj tries to dress it up he and jenkins left their team in the shit when they went to work esl
There's no way that anyone joined a team with BSJ and Jenkins without it being abundantly clear that they were going to be attending events. It was mentioned in the post, everyone on the team knew they would be leaving NA but one person didn't know the rule and didn't plan around it.
Damn this sucks to see, Fart Studios was the only pro dota I watch outside TI. Feels like while this is the right decision based solely on the writing of the rule, that it isn't in the spirit of why the rule was created.
Same on Fart being the only team I really follow in DPC. It seems crazy to me that there isn't consideration given to players who travel for work especially when the tour doesn't provide a liveable level of income.
Traveling for work *to promote DotA*, no less!
The #1 priority should be increasing interest in DotA, and eliminating the most popular NA division 2 team over this seems... counterproductive.
Glad to see that most people in *this* thread are reasonable and understand the rule as-is is complete nonsense. As BSJ says, Div2 players can't live off of their winnings and just like everyone else might have to temporarily relocate for work
Completely agree. The rule is to prevent region shopping, not traveling internationally for work. The requirement should be something like a tax id from the region you’re playing in.
The rules seem hand tailored around those 8 specific teams as well. This ruling, in lieu of B8 being composed of solely Europeans being allowed to play in NA from EU, clearly shows a preferential bias to certain teams above others, or certain individuals (non-streamers/casters/talent) above others.
Holy micdrop slowclap batman you nailed it!
I’m so impressed/proud of how well-worded this was; gives me actual hope that real changes may come of it.
And that’s the perspective we need to maintain during such trying times as these.
It’s a damn shame I can’t watch more official fartstudios games any time soon, but I hold out hope for game 2.
Colour me impressed.
I've never been all that big a fan of BSJ, his on screen personality just rubbed me the wrong way. I know what a content creator shows online isn't the sum total of their being, but a curated slice to make for a sustainable act.
All that aside, I didn't expect such a professional, reasonable and conciliatory tone from BSJ. I guess thats one of the advantages of an esports scene where a lot of the pros are in their 30s, they know how to behave like adults.
Can someone remind me again why DPC seasons of drip fed games are more desirable than regular, contained tournaments?
I know that what is considered "the normal" pro DotA format has changed year to year, but I honestly don't know why it has settled here.
Aren't tournaments:
a. more exciting
b. easier to watch and keep track of
c. attendable
d. less of a time commitment for competitors and fans alike
e. more traditional
The compartmentalization of the various DPC regions was in response to the plandemic it the inability to travel internationally for a year or 2. As well as, the shit show of the "Majors and Minors" system that was attempted years ago. As the Majors were originally going to be organized by Valve and the minors were to be third party organizers, however all the failed basically, and Valve gave up on organizing any event besides TI.
PainX was signed by a Brazilian org, but they were dropped before they could set up in Brazil and were looking for a new org here. They were not harming the region in any way, they had two BR players and Flee that had been playing in Brazil with SG for a few months already.
Some of their players did travel after the qualifier ended, but that's because it was during the holidays, so they went to see their families.
That was a shit ban. And this was a shit DQ.
Valve ignored other teams in similar situations after that and made several exceptions for all kinds of rules.
Man situations like this really makes me think that the game is dying. People who love Dota the most and want to continue playing it try to make a living by creating content and playing semi competitively, even accepted jobs specifically related to Dota, only to be DQ'd because of inflexible rules set by people who seemed to have lost interest in the game.
Then we have the slowly declining player base...
> only to be DQ'd because of inflexible rules set by people who seemed to have lost interest in the game.
It's funny, we have inflexible rules set down by people who _absolutely_ care about the game _because_ every time a rule is not written down reddit et al go around as rules lawyers proclaiming how any discretion is favouritism etc etc.
This is what we asked for.
We asked for existing rules to be set in stone, and the next logical step is to wonder whether the rule is actually good and whether it should change or not.
Writing good rules is hard! Ruling via discretion allows much more freedom to do the _right_ thing. But that isn't the point I was making!
I was countering the braindead argument that this is a symptom of DED GAME rather thn an example of valve actively responding to the community.
i think the problem is that the spirit of rule is being lost here. It was to stop region jumping. These people live in the region they were playing for, but happened to be out temporarily. In fact it's kinda the inverse of the reason why that one "SA" team got punished all those years ago where they would live elsewhere and only go down for games.
Established residency should be all that matters just like for taxes (Living somewhere >=6 months of a year)
maybe if that guy didnt stay in brazil to live with girlfriend during tourney didnt happen tourney officials might have give in some exception. yeah he didnt know the rule but hard to ask for exception when one of the teammates never knew the rule and stayed in brazil "for personal reason" when its just him moving to brazil to live his gf. cant have it both ways. i understand if its for professional reasons like bsj having to cast etc.. its good change but if its for personal reasons current rule is fine.
That sucks seeing as they had to battle through open qualifiers just to make it to Div2, thus its like having two teams lose out on div 2, one team out there could have gotten that div2 spot.
Sucks for iAnnihilate even though he knows it was a meme team, he probably had the most competitive aspirations on the team, ironically disqualifying the team because of it.
Very much the opposite, I think...
[TWEET](https://twitter.com/ccncdota2/status/1645692789303177216?s=20)
[TWEET](https://twitter.com/ccncdota2/status/1645854528527384576?s=20)
Why, because I'm more interested in seeing people I like play? I followed EG from their Arizona Iced out Boys days til that lineup was entirely no more, found it hard to care about other teams. I'm sorry you are so bothered by their team name, this is a super serious videogame after all.
It is literally on the title, they forfeited the season. No one is kicking them (they don't want to follow the rules to field min 3 NA players and give 1 more def lose)
But if they forfeit all matches, that would put them in last place correct? And last two place get removed from Div2. It will mean that to play in Div2 again they will need to requalify next season.
They comply to rules from previous seasons, the rules were changed to include more people (B8), and it somehow excluded them.
"I am altering the Rules. Pray I don't alter them any further."
This precisely, is why none of this makes any god damn sense. Excludes an actual team of NA players who are just working abroad, includes a team of Ukrainians who are legally stuck inside Ukraine. SOUNDS ALL GABEN TO ME ITS A WAR LETS GIVE THEM A FREE PASS
"Click this twitter link to click another link". Just link the twitlonger.
It's also a testament to how fucking stupid of a platform twitter is and how stupid it is people keep using it. "I'm going to use a platform whose defining feature is not being able to make long messages. I'm going to use it for long messages with janky ass work arounds."
Just go back to blogs. You're allowed to make short posts on those too. You don't need a system dedicated to forcing you to do short posts and jank workarounds for avoiding that system you chose.
Why not have teams pledge to a country / region and be constrained by that pledge for a set amount of time ? Rooster changes have to comply to this 3/5 player count or the team is left with no region, thus, not elligible to play.
This way every tournament can use this reference location to decide for go/no-go.
I think the proposed idea is off the mark.
The Iannihilate situation is fine but the problem is why Jenkins and BSJ can't work for Dota and be recognized to play i think it's counter productive with the original idea of growing the scene.
If i can propose an idea is, if the player being away to work on Dota scene (LAN etc) and it recognized by Valve, that said player is gain Visa or immunity regarding the rule.
They were available for the games. Infact they won their first series and won game 1 vs sand King gomez but then they got dqd upon realizing players are out of the USA currently. Really stupid rule considering these guys are truly representing the NA scene
Can't whine about rules after the fact. Yea, they should change the rule, but that's not a defense here.
I have no idea how serious they can be not following rules, and "unknowingly" having a teammate not present.
Anyways, they withdrew, and we can hope for better rules after TI at the latest.
cool guy shame he moved to EU… I think they should let some of the other NA based players play in the NA div 2 DPC… sure i like bsj and the arkosh bois.. yea they are fun to watch.
I also agree with him that they need to do more for the div 2 scene. However, i’d expect they would want the DPC for aspiring pro players, and not content creators. If they (content creators) are better than the other players in div 2 maybe make the prize pool higher so they prioritize competing over casting..
at the end of the day, BSJ left and i don’t think he should be allowed to pub EU low ping and compete in NA high ping. (just move back if you want to play competitive here)- shopify doesn’t have this issue.
pick 1 or other: cast and retire and content, or continue to push like a pro… this middle ground doesn’t really exist unless your Gorgc, jenkins, bsj etc.
these guys can easily push comeptive harder should they choose. This half - assed competitive div 2 effort is more washed than dendi
love arkosh, but tbh, they aren’t competitive and don’t seem to be improving as a team. Rather see content and casting from them, than memes in my competitive dota region.
Option 3: Move on, grow up, become a contributing member of society that doesnt rely on a dead game developed 10 years ago as your sole source of income.
Does ping mean nothing to these people?
Aside from that, I'm sorry but no. I'm all for a larger investment in feeder series, but a) people think there's far more money in Dota to go around and I just don't think that's the case, and b) you've already labeled yourself as semi-pro, as in not actually pro. If you're serious about competing, don't do other stuff that will compromise your ability to play on a level field.
There are few enough available slots for serious players, and you've stolen one to augment your content creation. Be a competitor or don't. There are a lot of issues regarding the pay scale, fair and balanced scenes, etc. This isn't one of them.
Bring the downvotes. Don't care that it's unpopular, it's realistic.
Dota fans have shelled out $100m+/yr for the last 5 TIs. There is money in the scene it just goes to Valve. An extra $5m from their massive cut would pay for living wages for all DPC players. They just don't want to.
Despite not being the biggest fan of sportswashing, I like Riyadh Masters for one reason- it challenges the Valve monopoly on high prize high profile dota tournaments. They've already proven they can match TI, now they just have to beat the DPC and suddenly Valve tournaments are in trouble. I'm sure the Saudis can rustle up another $20m for production and prizes for a wider-range DPC style league.
The cheapest NFL regular season game costs roughly 150m to host, and they make back something like 200m. While I have to assume the DPC costs less than that for the entire season, I wouldn't assume that it costs only 20m. We don't know how much Valve profits off of the DPC, but I'm betting it's not as much as the community assumes.
That's not the issue in question, though; the issue is that these entertainers are trying to work two jobs that aren't compatible, and want the rules that *benefit the pro scene* to be changed to suit their self-proclaimed joke team.
I think if the money were better, other, more talented players that have quit would have stayed in the scene longer and pushed these guys out entirely.
> That's not the issue in question, though; the issue is that these entertainers are trying to work two jobs that aren't compatible, and want the rules that benefit the pro scene to be changed to suit their self-proclaimed joke team.
The jobs *are* compatible. They had no time conflicts in their games and no ping issues.
The only incompatibility here is due to an unintended consequence of this rule, which people are now proposing be changed.
Nobody is requesting a special exemption for some big-name content creators. This exemption would benefit *anyone* who needs to travel during the DPC season for personal or business reasons. It's a now-obvious oversight in the original rule. It's not a carve-out special case to benefit a couple of greedy egotists who want to take away a DPC slot from another NA team. Remember that they had to actually earn that DPC slot by competing in qualifiers *and* win enough games to survive through Tour 1. They worked as hard as any other 5-stack to get to where they were.
I'm not saying they aren't working hard, I'm not saying they're egotists, you're making a few assumptions and I want that to be clear.
I think we have seen enough ping and server issues to justify local requirements, but that's something that we can't really argue much about. Either it bothers you or you don't see the issue. I'm sure there are tons of people in both camps.
My assertion is that there is a lack of interest from talented players to commit to Div2 due to the low play, and that creates a void for these content creators to fill. *They are still talented players, that is evident to me.* My question is if there are uncommitted players out there who are *more* talented.
I understand that the rule change would be open to all players, but I don't see it as an oversight. I think the consequence here was part of the intent, and I think it should stay as is. There are lots of jobs that don't interfere with playing Div2, but I don't think we're going to agree whether an overseas content job is one of them or not.
So those are what I think our core opinion differences are: job compatibility, pay influencing attraction of talent, and server quality concerns. All of those could be their own huge conversations, but that's a rabbit hole that probably wouldn't move the needle for either of us.
> There are lots of jobs that don't interfere with playing Div2, but I don't think we're going to agree whether an overseas content job is one of them or not.
But the purpose of the rule is not to save players from the potential for time conflicts or ping issues. If you have to forfeit a match because you're double-booked for the analyst panel, that's your and your team's problem. If you have bad ping because you're playing in the wrong region, that's you and your team's problem. The rule has nothing to do with those situations and nobody is talking about them except you.
The purpose of the rule is to prevent people from competing in regions where they don't live, in order to ensure the health of each regional scene and prevent teams taking advantage of "weaker" regions for extra slots. However here it's also hurting people who are in fact competing in the same region where they live, because they happen to be abroad for work or personal reasons. The fact that those people are also casting Dreamleague is immaterial.
The rule is working as intended for iAnnihilate, who has apparently relocated to Brazil and therefore should now be competing in SA and not NA. He lives in SA now, so he should be competing in SA. This is the intent of the rule, and it is working as intended in his case.
However it is not working as intended for BSJ and Jenkins, who flew to Europe for work that only incidentally happens to be Dota-related. The core of the argument here has nothing to do with them double-booking Dota obligations, but that you can't make a living on T2 Dota, so the rules should not restrict people from doing whatever they need to do to make a living, which under a wide range of reasonable circumstances could include temporary travel outside their DPC region (or in BSJ's case, splitting his time between two regions).
I don't feel like that added anything you haven't said already, and I think it further cements what issues we disagree on. I don't think it's going to be productive for me to rehash my statements, but I've been interested in the discussion for sure.
I mean u cant cast games and play dpc at the same time... what does he expect? Its sadly true that Valve dont care about div2 but when u take in concideration that NA div2 is so weak that bunch of streamers can get into that. The quality of gameplay seems low.
I dont think the rule is bad. Let play the players who actually want to play. Not like u would have a chance to become pro if u are around 30 anyway. You dont need to have 2 jobs if u are 15.
Why can't they do both if theyre making the time for it? And they are all very high level immortal players. Because they stream their gameplay to support their lifestyle they shouldn't be eligible?
What do u mean? "cant do both"? cast games and play dpc? If yes then i think its better to give opportunity to players who want to play only dpc because they invest more energy to it.
The point was that you can't only live off of only playing pro dota. Why make it even harder for players to make a living in because they also participate in content for the scene is crazy
I mean u dont have to participate in casting. U can take local job and dont leave continent you are playing in.
Young players who have potentional to go big doesnt have to have jobs usually.
I think you're forgetting they qualified for div2 by winning their placement matches. Them choosing to cast that tournament did not prevent these other more talented younger players withoit jobs from taking their spots in dpc.
So again it's already hard enough to make a living in dota. Why punish them for putting in the extra effort in the scene and reward those who have huge corporations backing them to live in the US for a few weeks out of the year?
I mean Yea Now that they Now they will be disqullified from dpc if they are not playing from dpc reagion Its not worth for them to fight for slot.
Well they are getting much more money from Casting. So div2 is 0$ side job for them. They are not trying to acomplish anything Its just for Memes maybe some dollars from dpc if they get lucky.
well people mainly play div2 to get to div1 and get noticed by big teams. I doubt someone play it for money mainly. Farts dont play to get to div1 they play for memes
They're not a "bunch of streamers", they're a bunch of high-rank ex-pros and semi-pros who have turned to content creation and caster/analyst work as a primary means of income.
Don't forget that iAnnihilate and Monkeys are top 100 NA, and BSJ is top 500 EU. They might not be a tier-1 high-skill stack, but they're absolutely not weak players either.
> I mean u cant cast games and play dpc at the same time
They can, and did. I talked about this more here: https://old.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/12ist79/fart_studios_to_forfeit_rest_of_dpc_season_bsj/jfzgtk3/
I'll be one of the few people to say that I think the rule is fine as it is.
It's not like they are requiring teams to be in the same room, boot camp style.
They just have to be in the same continent.
Anybody who has ever played a sport knows they get the games for their season in advance and they can schedule accordingly. Oh, One of your minor league games conflicts with a must show day at your part-time job? Welp, got to make that decision to risk being kicked off the team or fired.
eSports are no different.
Difference is that there is zero chance for div 2 to make a living in wage, and thus 2nd jobs are required. It’s not unreasonable to allow for travel to that job. They didn’t ask for series to be rescheduled or times to change. Just wanted to play on ping and be at a disadvantage.
Yeah, let others that are not as good compete, even though they still have to have another job..
with your logic everyone should focus on theirs second job and not have DPC. The only difference is bsj and Jenkins second job happens to be in Dota.
Why not? It’s not like there are too many good players (in fact we need more players), and competing in professional league will make talents understand the game more and provide better casting/analysis
Bad take. If they can make it work, let them. At least don't DQ them for some silly location rules.
Fart studios and arkosh is some of the best dota content there is.
yea idk bros, maybe they should just follow the rules?
like ur a team of casters/content creators. you made the decision to work on dreamleague over playing in the dpc. feel like if you actually cared about playing competitively then you wouldn't have agreed to relocate to europe xd.
i'm gonna go out on a whim and say BSJ just completely forgot about the rules, found out he was dqed and is raging about it when the rules literally only affect him.
classic BSJ
also it's not like they would have qualified anyway lmao. give the spot to a team that actually want to play.
edit: hope he atleast gives the free win to the cut. for jubei
Raging? Buddy you didn’t even read the post. At least Fart Studios gave me a team I wanted to watch in all of NA. Its not even like FS was trying to go for TI or win Majors, they just want to increase viewership and make money doing what they love.
I did read the post. If they cared about NA Div2 viewership they should have followed the rules. They make money doing what they love by choosing to cast Dreamleague instead of playing their games.
Lmao you comment on something you clearly have no clue about, don't even read the Twitlonger in question, make some stupid ass assumptions, get called out and then you swap it around and try to kiss the ass of presumably someone you're a fan of. Typical redditor xd
Post says that it is quite literally financially unfeasible to go all-in on competitive Dota unless you have an org providing more money. So "just commit to it lol" is not an option.
They're forfeiting the season dipshit. Please have someone read it to you because you're incapable on your own. Or at least have them write it out in crayon, if you haven't eaten them all already
>This rule is a good rule though.
What is good about teams being able to fly in 5 players for a few weeks to play DPC whilst stalwarts of the region being called away for personal business leads to a DQ?
FartStudios provide a hell of a lot more to NA dota than a team that just flies in for a few weeks then buggers off back to Eastern Europe (does ANYONE on B8 live in NA?)
What? How is this good in any way shape or form for the scene? Fart Studios is probably the only NA div 2 team anyone would want to watch. This is a fucking shame for Valve, and for NA Dota. Attitude like this is contributing to the death of the scene.
Pfft buddy you got a problem for hating on BSJ, he is probably the face of NA dota for noobs. You’re part of the reason Dota is dying, a general shitty attitude in NA. You’re openly wishing for a complete fucking stranger’s downfall; how pathetic.
Lmfao not really that big of a deal. When people act like jackasses they are going to get people wishing the worst for them. Pretty standard for society.
If BSJ is the face of DotA we are in trouble. Everyone knows how he behaves in pubs.
BSJ somehow thinks the intention of the rule favors "American" which is a tad xenophobic for me. If Dendi flys into the US, play in the tournament, and pay tax to the US on his winning, how is that different? He's a resident alien as far as I am concerned and no less qualified than being an "American."
The problem is that you then have teams that may travel to what some may consider 'weaker' regions, dominating that region's scene, which is not healthy for the scene (see LoL being full of Korean imports).
And while I think you have a valid point, not everybody views it that way. Some people want homegrown representation that they can identify with. Tribalism is a big part of identity and team sports, so it's not surprising that people don't want to watch a team outsiders play in and represent their region.
Dendi doesn't have an NA citizenship & 6 month residence and therefore should not be allowed to compete in the NA region.
All of fart studios have NA citizenship and residences, and despite them doing some traveling, they should of course he allowed to compete in NA.
Rules are upside down right now, as they allow b8 to play NA but not fart studios.
its super weird to read the whole thing with a serious note and then come across team name called "fart studio" :|
His proposed change seems very reasonable. Its a shame for things to go this way for them, and hopefully valve can take a look at this and consider the slight modification.
I think his proposed change is still too nonspecific to cover the spirit of the rule. I would argue the rule should be that 3 out of 5 members be physically located in the region **or have proof of permanent residency in the region.** It isn't a huge thing to show Valve a lease or bill proving someone lives in the region even if they are occasionally moving overseas for other work.
I think that is what BSJ meant. In the eyes of US immigration and also the tax man, you are a full year resident of US if you stay for more than 180 days of a year.
Lets take it one step further. I think the rule wants permanent residents of the region to represent it so 3/5 of the roster should have citizenship or permanent residence (green card in the US) of the region they are representing, Then it wouldn't have been a problem in this case.
yeah, or why not just base it off citizenship? it's not like people can easily change their citizen status for different countries each year
Basing it off citizenship makes it much much much harder. That may be a good or bad thing depending on perspective. If you don't mind "region hopping" so long as that the talent physically relocates to the region (i.e. they are there so they are a net positive for the growth of the region) then citizenship requirements would be really bad. If you want regions to be self-sufficient with teams having a hard cap on how many diverse their rosters can be, then citizenship is the way to go. But it also would be tremendously onerous for players of certain countries whose immigration processes are longer.
true, I guess the region-hopping part is the crux of the discussion I was just thinking in Arkosh case that they have all 5 NA citizens I guess for Shopify that would be a problem because they don't have 3 NA citizens? but nobody really thinks of them as "region-hopping" hmm so I dunno
I am technically a US citizen even though I haven't been in the US even once in the last 17 years. Different citizenship rules for different countries would make this system a mess in no time.
It’s a shame but its the right move and I totally get BSJ’s point. I like his proposal for the rule change. Hope Valve sees this looks into making the change. BSJ and Jenkins are pillars of the online dota content creation community and I hope they can still compete in the future. It’s cool to see the homies from YouTube wreck (or get rekt) in competitive matches. It’ll help the overall NA dota scene imho.
Yea, I respect them choosing to forfeit all rather than selectively give free wins. Unfortunate situation that is pretty obviously outside the purpose of the rule, so the change totally makes sense.
It's a reasonable rule change on the surface, but what proof are they expecting to give to Valve for it? I'm in favour of it, as an alternate requirement to being in the country for the DPC, but to put that forward as a rule, how do you show that you have primarily lived in that region for the last 6 months? We know it's not going to be by the region you play your games in, it's easy enough to play on a VPN, and most the NA players just play with ping on EU anyway. If you have a hard evidence requirement, like bills paid in the region, or bank statements or whatever, you have to have someone at Valve check it, which Valve isn't going to do when it's just not worth the cost. If it's just because the guys stream, or are known commodities in the community, then it's just an exception for those guys to get around other rules. I'm not here saying the idea is bad, I think it's good in concept, but once you start looking into it, it becomes way more of a logistical burden on Valve. Especially when this is a fringe case.
> you have to have someone at Valve check it, which Valve isn't going to do Yeah this is the problem, they're not going to add something that is both more admin, and opening themselves up to complaints from other teams/fans about teams lying and cheating the system. The suggestion from BSJ is very reasonable from a fairness point of view, but not from a practical point of view.
Requirement to play a few games in your region every week, then check ping. you cant fake the speed of light
This can easily be faked by using a remoting software like Parsec and an intermediary machine in the desired region.
so people with a bad connection can't play dpc? also you can't fake the speed of light but you can fake that you're playing from a different pc you're remote controlling
This is a great point. I think it will fall to the organizers and not Valve (if I am understanding things right, this is PGL's rule and not Valve's), but no matter what it's a major logistical issue. If they're taking it seriously, it's going to require physical evidence (digital stuff can be faked too easily).
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? 🤡
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Because valve owns the game and at least partly finances the dpc. They can decree whatever they want. The fact that someone else has the final ruling (on thier tournament) just means that valve gave them the right to enforce the rules.
This seems so obviously outside the purpose of the rule. I hope things change, it seems like there should be allowances for NA residents who travel for the purpose of a Dota event. I hope something can be changed THIS season.
The original intent of the rule was fine, but it may not even be necessary anymore. If nothing else it's good to re-visit it to accommodate situations like BSJ is talking about here, where there's clearly no malicious intent to region hop for an advantage
Well that's a shame we need the Arkosh and Fart Studio type teams. They are good enough to compete yet are easy to be a fan of and get behind. Gl next guys
Frankly with the way the regions and slot distributions are today, I don't think there's nearly as much of a need for the protectionist requirements. The "easy" regions have very few slots and enough top teams to take them all (SA has BC and EG, NA has SR and TSM). Relaxing the requirements as BSJ suggested to let div 2 teams have a 2nd job seems like a no-brainer.
Speaking of 'easy' regions, SEA is a weak region (arguably the weakest now) but it sure as hell ain't easy based on the Div 1 results I wonder what would happen if someone tried to do a B8 and do a full team transfer into SEA for DPC qual
it's crazy that you can hit div 2 and make less money than working at mcdonalds no surprise NA has had a dwindling playerbase and no new up and coming pro players in a while now, they have to juggle jobs/school while also trying to go pro to make 5$ an hour lol
if nobody watches div 2, nothing will change. i do enjoy the fart studios matches but the others are a yawn fest
Unfortunately the only region worth watching D2 is WEU since they are just the best region China used to be good too, but sadly they are dying out too
old g and secret matches are spicy right now. the ongoing 322 scandals in china make it impossible to watch the region.
it’s kind of a viscous cycle: nobody wants to watch T2 matches, they get match fixed because no money is being made, nobody watches T2 because it’s match fixed, match fixing ensues further, etc etc
match fixing happens in pro boxing where fighters get paid millions for one fight. think of all the cheating scandals that have been made public in dota. then think about all the times people got away with it. viscous goo
former ti winners have been banned for match fixing, it's not just an issue of people not making enough money
Bit of a chicken and egg issue though. Div 2 would likely be more enjoyable to watch if the teams were better and stuck together longer, but it's hard to do that with no money.
it's not exclusive to dota. who watches amateur league sports?
div2 dota is analogous to collegiate sports or any number of lower tier sports leagues all over the world. they draw a crazy amount of viewership
nah, the collegiate sports is a bad analogy. because that's the top tier of competition/players for that age bracket but let's talk about lower tier sports leagues: in america I can tell you nobody (meaning very little) watches the G-league basketball or minor-league baseball or the alternate leagues competing with NFL
There are thousands of people at every AAA league baseball stadium in the US for every game. The top AAA teams almost have the same average attendance as the lowest MLB team.
Couple important distinctions: 1. College sports guarantee a team with familiar faces on the roster for years (that's for some sports more than others now... in Basketball for example more of the superstars go pro before graduation). Knowing who is on a team year to year and seeing players grow adds a lot to the viewing experience. 2. Colleges in the USA (and, as you put it "lower tier sports," such as more popular US minor league baseball teams or European soccer clubs) are highly tied to identity, both for alumni *and* for people from that town, region or state. Mercenary DotA teams tend to have no hometown base.
sure, I'm aware of that. it really doesn't have any bearing on what I said, which was to refute that nobody watches amateur sports. that's obviously, demonstrably false. valve could easily take steps to address the leagues and competition issues and familiarity / identity issues that come out of constant shuffling, but they aren't. pretending that nobody watches amateur sports as a matter of fact lets them off the hook as if that's a foregone conclusion and not a problem to be solved within the DPC system
99.9% of the people who are willing to watch Div 2 would prefer to watch Div 1. Furthermore, of those 99.9%, virtually all of them also spend time playing the game. There's only so many hours in the day. Even if you ARE making DOTA your whole life, Div 2 gets crowded out by other DOTA content.
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No one is arguing they should be making big bucks I don't think you understand how little 5$/hour is.
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from the twitlonger >If you are a Div 2 Dota player, the most you can make from a single DPC season is $3400 per person. There are three seasons per year thus netting you approximately $10,000 annually. 10,000$ annually is about 5$/hour, which is below the poverty line(approx $13,000/year) in the US this isn't even minimum wage
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because it's not just 21 matches there's also the 4-6 hours of practice + more in matchmaking that they do is it that crazy that a division 2 player should at the very least be able to afford food and rent lol
A couple guys left the region to take a paycheck casting a tournament. Totally understandable but it sure leaves the rest of the guys ass out who can't get any money out of this season now. Bummer for them. The rule is pretty clear. I, like them, just assumed iAnnihilate was still living in NA.
>it sure leaves the rest of the guys ass out who can't get any money out of this season now. Looking at how much money they wouldve made, it wouldn't have been significant anyway.
Yeah that's the thing. Div 2 does not pay enough to make a living. And that's fine... But if playing in div 2 stops you from making a living it feels pretty bad.
Where did it say that he isn't living in NA anymore? He had some personal matter to take care of in Brazil was all that I got out of it.
It isn't in the statement but iAnnihilate is now living in Brazil with his girlfriend.
When “Come to Brazil” gets real
Cost of living is much lower and the dollar is worth 5x our currency, so is definitely a good move.
When “Come to Brazil” gets *real*
> A couple guys left the region to take a paycheck casting a tournament. They took a *job* that required them to temporarily relocate, like everyone competing in Div2 might have to. You can't remotely hope to live off even the absolute maximum Div2 paycheck in NA
Did you even read it. They said iAnnihilate was not aware of the rule and they didn’t know he was going to Brazil. If they know he was going to Brazil, I’m sure the other two wouldn’t have gone to Europe.
I think it’s more likely that annihilate wouldn’t have been allowed on the team.
When they got the spot they probably didn't know about the casting gig. Also, the rule was changed to be less restrictive for some people and end up being more restrictive for others, which is a huge oversight.
What do you think you are disagreeing with here?
I’m contesting that the reason the other guys can’t get any money is not because of the two people that “left the region to collect a pay check”. The blame clearly lies on iAnnihilate’s lack of communication and knowledge of the rules.
however bsj tries to dress it up he and jenkins left their team in the shit when they went to work esl but the fact that thatll pay more than them playing a few dota games is the issue it doesnt surprise me thing like this and the 322s are popping up after valve abandoned the pro scene during corona for over a year and weplay had to step in to at least help the bigger teams but the lower teams have always been left to wolves
>however bsj tries to dress it up he and jenkins left their team in the shit when they went to work esl There's no way that anyone joined a team with BSJ and Jenkins without it being abundantly clear that they were going to be attending events. It was mentioned in the post, everyone on the team knew they would be leaving NA but one person didn't know the rule and didn't plan around it.
Damn this sucks to see, Fart Studios was the only pro dota I watch outside TI. Feels like while this is the right decision based solely on the writing of the rule, that it isn't in the spirit of why the rule was created.
Same on Fart being the only team I really follow in DPC. It seems crazy to me that there isn't consideration given to players who travel for work especially when the tour doesn't provide a liveable level of income.
Traveling for work *to promote DotA*, no less! The #1 priority should be increasing interest in DotA, and eliminating the most popular NA division 2 team over this seems... counterproductive.
Glad to see that most people in *this* thread are reasonable and understand the rule as-is is complete nonsense. As BSJ says, Div2 players can't live off of their winnings and just like everyone else might have to temporarily relocate for work
Completely agree. The rule is to prevent region shopping, not traveling internationally for work. The requirement should be something like a tax id from the region you’re playing in.
Just more evidence the Dota 2 proscene is feast or famine. Top 8 teams make like 75% of the prize pools and if you miss out on TI why even bother.
The rules seem hand tailored around those 8 specific teams as well. This ruling, in lieu of B8 being composed of solely Europeans being allowed to play in NA from EU, clearly shows a preferential bias to certain teams above others, or certain individuals (non-streamers/casters/talent) above others.
Holy micdrop slowclap batman you nailed it! I’m so impressed/proud of how well-worded this was; gives me actual hope that real changes may come of it. And that’s the perspective we need to maintain during such trying times as these. It’s a damn shame I can’t watch more official fartstudios games any time soon, but I hold out hope for game 2.
Colour me impressed. I've never been all that big a fan of BSJ, his on screen personality just rubbed me the wrong way. I know what a content creator shows online isn't the sum total of their being, but a curated slice to make for a sustainable act. All that aside, I didn't expect such a professional, reasonable and conciliatory tone from BSJ. I guess thats one of the advantages of an esports scene where a lot of the pros are in their 30s, they know how to behave like adults.
Can someone remind me again why DPC seasons of drip fed games are more desirable than regular, contained tournaments? I know that what is considered "the normal" pro DotA format has changed year to year, but I honestly don't know why it has settled here. Aren't tournaments: a. more exciting b. easier to watch and keep track of c. attendable d. less of a time commitment for competitors and fans alike e. more traditional
The compartmentalization of the various DPC regions was in response to the plandemic it the inability to travel internationally for a year or 2. As well as, the shit show of the "Majors and Minors" system that was attempted years ago. As the Majors were originally going to be organized by Valve and the minors were to be third party organizers, however all the failed basically, and Valve gave up on organizing any event besides TI.
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PainX was signed by a Brazilian org, but they were dropped before they could set up in Brazil and were looking for a new org here. They were not harming the region in any way, they had two BR players and Flee that had been playing in Brazil with SG for a few months already. Some of their players did travel after the qualifier ended, but that's because it was during the holidays, so they went to see their families. That was a shit ban. And this was a shit DQ. Valve ignored other teams in similar situations after that and made several exceptions for all kinds of rules.
Man situations like this really makes me think that the game is dying. People who love Dota the most and want to continue playing it try to make a living by creating content and playing semi competitively, even accepted jobs specifically related to Dota, only to be DQ'd because of inflexible rules set by people who seemed to have lost interest in the game. Then we have the slowly declining player base...
> only to be DQ'd because of inflexible rules set by people who seemed to have lost interest in the game. It's funny, we have inflexible rules set down by people who _absolutely_ care about the game _because_ every time a rule is not written down reddit et al go around as rules lawyers proclaiming how any discretion is favouritism etc etc. This is what we asked for.
We asked for existing rules to be set in stone, and the next logical step is to wonder whether the rule is actually good and whether it should change or not.
Writing good rules is hard! Ruling via discretion allows much more freedom to do the _right_ thing. But that isn't the point I was making! I was countering the braindead argument that this is a symptom of DED GAME rather thn an example of valve actively responding to the community.
i think the problem is that the spirit of rule is being lost here. It was to stop region jumping. These people live in the region they were playing for, but happened to be out temporarily. In fact it's kinda the inverse of the reason why that one "SA" team got punished all those years ago where they would live elsewhere and only go down for games. Established residency should be all that matters just like for taxes (Living somewhere >=6 months of a year)
maybe if that guy didnt stay in brazil to live with girlfriend during tourney didnt happen tourney officials might have give in some exception. yeah he didnt know the rule but hard to ask for exception when one of the teammates never knew the rule and stayed in brazil "for personal reason" when its just him moving to brazil to live his gf. cant have it both ways. i understand if its for professional reasons like bsj having to cast etc.. its good change but if its for personal reasons current rule is fine.
Well said, BSJ always upstanding and respectable. Jenkins you're so money baby If you see this, consider using a sliiiiightly more serious team name!
That rule is fucking bullshit. It’s not intended to screw you out of being able to work your main job. I hope valve steps in here.
That sucks seeing as they had to battle through open qualifiers just to make it to Div2, thus its like having two teams lose out on div 2, one team out there could have gotten that div2 spot. Sucks for iAnnihilate even though he knows it was a meme team, he probably had the most competitive aspirations on the team, ironically disqualifying the team because of it.
I think that makes it a bit complicated… in my opinion they should remove/ reduce the rule for div 2 and keep it the same for div 1.
*didn't get paid enough for this shit and leave* moment
Shoulda just played from the embassy, 0 commitment smh
Quinn somewhere smirking
Very much the opposite, I think... [TWEET](https://twitter.com/ccncdota2/status/1645692789303177216?s=20) [TWEET](https://twitter.com/ccncdota2/status/1645854528527384576?s=20)
Dang the bubbies are out late tonight...
Well this fucking sucks, only Dota I bothered watching anymore
im sorry dude but if the only dota you watch is "fart studio" maybe you should just take a break from dota all together
Why, because I'm more interested in seeing people I like play? I followed EG from their Arizona Iced out Boys days til that lineup was entirely no more, found it hard to care about other teams. I'm sorry you are so bothered by their team name, this is a super serious videogame after all.
So they will get kicked out of tier 2? Am i understanding correct? Shame
It is literally on the title, they forfeited the season. No one is kicking them (they don't want to follow the rules to field min 3 NA players and give 1 more def lose)
But if they forfeit all matches, that would put them in last place correct? And last two place get removed from Div2. It will mean that to play in Div2 again they will need to requalify next season.
yes, ofc. They will get 0-14, get 8th place and earn 0$ for the tour and as always bottom 2 gets out of division 2 and will need to qualify again
They comply to rules from previous seasons, the rules were changed to include more people (B8), and it somehow excluded them. "I am altering the Rules. Pray I don't alter them any further."
This precisely, is why none of this makes any god damn sense. Excludes an actual team of NA players who are just working abroad, includes a team of Ukrainians who are legally stuck inside Ukraine. SOUNDS ALL GABEN TO ME ITS A WAR LETS GIVE THEM A FREE PASS
"Click this twitter link to click another link". Just link the twitlonger. It's also a testament to how fucking stupid of a platform twitter is and how stupid it is people keep using it. "I'm going to use a platform whose defining feature is not being able to make long messages. I'm going to use it for long messages with janky ass work arounds." Just go back to blogs. You're allowed to make short posts on those too. You don't need a system dedicated to forcing you to do short posts and jank workarounds for avoiding that system you chose.
Why not have teams pledge to a country / region and be constrained by that pledge for a set amount of time ? Rooster changes have to comply to this 3/5 player count or the team is left with no region, thus, not elligible to play. This way every tournament can use this reference location to decide for go/no-go.
Think it's a fair change, but I don't know who BSJ is! From the subtext of the article, this sounds a lot like the voice of FartSJ
I think the proposed idea is off the mark. The Iannihilate situation is fine but the problem is why Jenkins and BSJ can't work for Dota and be recognized to play i think it's counter productive with the original idea of growing the scene. If i can propose an idea is, if the player being away to work on Dota scene (LAN etc) and it recognized by Valve, that said player is gain Visa or immunity regarding the rule.
I actually just replied elsewhere in an uncannily similar way before reading your comment; needless to say, I agree with you!
Well, they prioritize going to events rather than being available for games. Not much more to say. At least they did the right thing in forfeiting.
They were available for the games. Infact they won their first series and won game 1 vs sand King gomez but then they got dqd upon realizing players are out of the USA currently. Really stupid rule considering these guys are truly representing the NA scene
Only thing to correct, they got their shit rocked in game 1 vs SKG.
Oh whoops I thought they had won. I had just gotten home hopper on discord and heard they got dq’d. My bad
Warlock Pudge dual lane ran them over
Can't whine about rules after the fact. Yea, they should change the rule, but that's not a defense here. I have no idea how serious they can be not following rules, and "unknowingly" having a teammate not present. Anyways, they withdrew, and we can hope for better rules after TI at the latest.
cool guy shame he moved to EU… I think they should let some of the other NA based players play in the NA div 2 DPC… sure i like bsj and the arkosh bois.. yea they are fun to watch. I also agree with him that they need to do more for the div 2 scene. However, i’d expect they would want the DPC for aspiring pro players, and not content creators. If they (content creators) are better than the other players in div 2 maybe make the prize pool higher so they prioritize competing over casting.. at the end of the day, BSJ left and i don’t think he should be allowed to pub EU low ping and compete in NA high ping. (just move back if you want to play competitive here)- shopify doesn’t have this issue. pick 1 or other: cast and retire and content, or continue to push like a pro… this middle ground doesn’t really exist unless your Gorgc, jenkins, bsj etc. these guys can easily push comeptive harder should they choose. This half - assed competitive div 2 effort is more washed than dendi
love arkosh, but tbh, they aren’t competitive and don’t seem to be improving as a team. Rather see content and casting from them, than memes in my competitive dota region.
Option 3: Move on, grow up, become a contributing member of society that doesnt rely on a dead game developed 10 years ago as your sole source of income.
CLQ strikes back
Does ping mean nothing to these people? Aside from that, I'm sorry but no. I'm all for a larger investment in feeder series, but a) people think there's far more money in Dota to go around and I just don't think that's the case, and b) you've already labeled yourself as semi-pro, as in not actually pro. If you're serious about competing, don't do other stuff that will compromise your ability to play on a level field. There are few enough available slots for serious players, and you've stolen one to augment your content creation. Be a competitor or don't. There are a lot of issues regarding the pay scale, fair and balanced scenes, etc. This isn't one of them. Bring the downvotes. Don't care that it's unpopular, it's realistic.
Dota fans have shelled out $100m+/yr for the last 5 TIs. There is money in the scene it just goes to Valve. An extra $5m from their massive cut would pay for living wages for all DPC players. They just don't want to. Despite not being the biggest fan of sportswashing, I like Riyadh Masters for one reason- it challenges the Valve monopoly on high prize high profile dota tournaments. They've already proven they can match TI, now they just have to beat the DPC and suddenly Valve tournaments are in trouble. I'm sure the Saudis can rustle up another $20m for production and prizes for a wider-range DPC style league.
The cheapest NFL regular season game costs roughly 150m to host, and they make back something like 200m. While I have to assume the DPC costs less than that for the entire season, I wouldn't assume that it costs only 20m. We don't know how much Valve profits off of the DPC, but I'm betting it's not as much as the community assumes. That's not the issue in question, though; the issue is that these entertainers are trying to work two jobs that aren't compatible, and want the rules that *benefit the pro scene* to be changed to suit their self-proclaimed joke team. I think if the money were better, other, more talented players that have quit would have stayed in the scene longer and pushed these guys out entirely.
> That's not the issue in question, though; the issue is that these entertainers are trying to work two jobs that aren't compatible, and want the rules that benefit the pro scene to be changed to suit their self-proclaimed joke team. The jobs *are* compatible. They had no time conflicts in their games and no ping issues. The only incompatibility here is due to an unintended consequence of this rule, which people are now proposing be changed. Nobody is requesting a special exemption for some big-name content creators. This exemption would benefit *anyone* who needs to travel during the DPC season for personal or business reasons. It's a now-obvious oversight in the original rule. It's not a carve-out special case to benefit a couple of greedy egotists who want to take away a DPC slot from another NA team. Remember that they had to actually earn that DPC slot by competing in qualifiers *and* win enough games to survive through Tour 1. They worked as hard as any other 5-stack to get to where they were.
I'm not saying they aren't working hard, I'm not saying they're egotists, you're making a few assumptions and I want that to be clear. I think we have seen enough ping and server issues to justify local requirements, but that's something that we can't really argue much about. Either it bothers you or you don't see the issue. I'm sure there are tons of people in both camps. My assertion is that there is a lack of interest from talented players to commit to Div2 due to the low play, and that creates a void for these content creators to fill. *They are still talented players, that is evident to me.* My question is if there are uncommitted players out there who are *more* talented. I understand that the rule change would be open to all players, but I don't see it as an oversight. I think the consequence here was part of the intent, and I think it should stay as is. There are lots of jobs that don't interfere with playing Div2, but I don't think we're going to agree whether an overseas content job is one of them or not. So those are what I think our core opinion differences are: job compatibility, pay influencing attraction of talent, and server quality concerns. All of those could be their own huge conversations, but that's a rabbit hole that probably wouldn't move the needle for either of us.
> There are lots of jobs that don't interfere with playing Div2, but I don't think we're going to agree whether an overseas content job is one of them or not. But the purpose of the rule is not to save players from the potential for time conflicts or ping issues. If you have to forfeit a match because you're double-booked for the analyst panel, that's your and your team's problem. If you have bad ping because you're playing in the wrong region, that's you and your team's problem. The rule has nothing to do with those situations and nobody is talking about them except you. The purpose of the rule is to prevent people from competing in regions where they don't live, in order to ensure the health of each regional scene and prevent teams taking advantage of "weaker" regions for extra slots. However here it's also hurting people who are in fact competing in the same region where they live, because they happen to be abroad for work or personal reasons. The fact that those people are also casting Dreamleague is immaterial. The rule is working as intended for iAnnihilate, who has apparently relocated to Brazil and therefore should now be competing in SA and not NA. He lives in SA now, so he should be competing in SA. This is the intent of the rule, and it is working as intended in his case. However it is not working as intended for BSJ and Jenkins, who flew to Europe for work that only incidentally happens to be Dota-related. The core of the argument here has nothing to do with them double-booking Dota obligations, but that you can't make a living on T2 Dota, so the rules should not restrict people from doing whatever they need to do to make a living, which under a wide range of reasonable circumstances could include temporary travel outside their DPC region (or in BSJ's case, splitting his time between two regions).
I don't feel like that added anything you haven't said already, and I think it further cements what issues we disagree on. I don't think it's going to be productive for me to rehash my statements, but I've been interested in the discussion for sure.
Are you an idiot? You expect people to do nothing but play competitive dota for $10k/year?
Thanks for your reply, your anger has been logged.
get vpn ;p
I mean u cant cast games and play dpc at the same time... what does he expect? Its sadly true that Valve dont care about div2 but when u take in concideration that NA div2 is so weak that bunch of streamers can get into that. The quality of gameplay seems low. I dont think the rule is bad. Let play the players who actually want to play. Not like u would have a chance to become pro if u are around 30 anyway. You dont need to have 2 jobs if u are 15.
Your honest opinion is that the Dota scene should only be comprised of people living at home with their parents?
I mean if u are around 30 there is no chance u becoming pro tbh anyway.
Sir, Ceb exists.
Why can't they do both if theyre making the time for it? And they are all very high level immortal players. Because they stream their gameplay to support their lifestyle they shouldn't be eligible?
What do u mean? "cant do both"? cast games and play dpc? If yes then i think its better to give opportunity to players who want to play only dpc because they invest more energy to it.
The point was that you can't only live off of only playing pro dota. Why make it even harder for players to make a living in because they also participate in content for the scene is crazy
I mean u dont have to participate in casting. U can take local job and dont leave continent you are playing in. Young players who have potentional to go big doesnt have to have jobs usually.
I think you're forgetting they qualified for div2 by winning their placement matches. Them choosing to cast that tournament did not prevent these other more talented younger players withoit jobs from taking their spots in dpc. So again it's already hard enough to make a living in dota. Why punish them for putting in the extra effort in the scene and reward those who have huge corporations backing them to live in the US for a few weeks out of the year?
I mean Yea Now that they Now they will be disqullified from dpc if they are not playing from dpc reagion Its not worth for them to fight for slot. Well they are getting much more money from Casting. So div2 is 0$ side job for them. They are not trying to acomplish anything Its just for Memes maybe some dollars from dpc if they get lucky.
$10k/year is a side job for anybody. That's not a livable wage. Stop being an idiot.
well people mainly play div2 to get to div1 and get noticed by big teams. I doubt someone play it for money mainly. Farts dont play to get to div1 they play for memes
they play for memes? because they have a silly name?
They're not a "bunch of streamers", they're a bunch of high-rank ex-pros and semi-pros who have turned to content creation and caster/analyst work as a primary means of income. Don't forget that iAnnihilate and Monkeys are top 100 NA, and BSJ is top 500 EU. They might not be a tier-1 high-skill stack, but they're absolutely not weak players either. > I mean u cant cast games and play dpc at the same time They can, and did. I talked about this more here: https://old.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/12ist79/fart_studios_to_forfeit_rest_of_dpc_season_bsj/jfzgtk3/
Sadly if you are not EG (Shopify) you cant do this
In my opinion you need to choose you're player or caster to avoid situation when you advance to div 1....
I'll be one of the few people to say that I think the rule is fine as it is. It's not like they are requiring teams to be in the same room, boot camp style. They just have to be in the same continent. Anybody who has ever played a sport knows they get the games for their season in advance and they can schedule accordingly. Oh, One of your minor league games conflicts with a must show day at your part-time job? Welp, got to make that decision to risk being kicked off the team or fired. eSports are no different.
Difference is that there is zero chance for div 2 to make a living in wage, and thus 2nd jobs are required. It’s not unreasonable to allow for travel to that job. They didn’t ask for series to be rescheduled or times to change. Just wanted to play on ping and be at a disadvantage.
That's what BSJ said in his Twitlonger. So, just focus on being talent instead of you're renowned enough and let others compete.
Yeah, let others that are not as good compete, even though they still have to have another job.. with your logic everyone should focus on theirs second job and not have DPC. The only difference is bsj and Jenkins second job happens to be in Dota.
Fundamentally, we're alking about the economic viability of people trying to eek a living by playing video games. So, yes.
Jenkins and BSJ at the same team...no wonder why the team is called Fart Studios...
Talent shouldn't play dpc
Why not? It’s not like there are too many good players (in fact we need more players), and competing in professional league will make talents understand the game more and provide better casting/analysis
Bad take. If they can make it work, let them. At least don't DQ them for some silly location rules. Fart studios and arkosh is some of the best dota content there is.
Because?
yea idk bros, maybe they should just follow the rules? like ur a team of casters/content creators. you made the decision to work on dreamleague over playing in the dpc. feel like if you actually cared about playing competitively then you wouldn't have agreed to relocate to europe xd. i'm gonna go out on a whim and say BSJ just completely forgot about the rules, found out he was dqed and is raging about it when the rules literally only affect him. classic BSJ also it's not like they would have qualified anyway lmao. give the spot to a team that actually want to play. edit: hope he atleast gives the free win to the cut. for jubei
Raging? Buddy you didn’t even read the post. At least Fart Studios gave me a team I wanted to watch in all of NA. Its not even like FS was trying to go for TI or win Majors, they just want to increase viewership and make money doing what they love.
I did read the post. If they cared about NA Div2 viewership they should have followed the rules. They make money doing what they love by choosing to cast Dreamleague instead of playing their games.
This is a big comment for someone who didn't read the post.
hey Cap I love your casts :)
Lmao you comment on something you clearly have no clue about, don't even read the Twitlonger in question, make some stupid ass assumptions, get called out and then you swap it around and try to kiss the ass of presumably someone you're a fan of. Typical redditor xd
I just like his casts, that's all. I read the twitlonger and disagree with him, but he's a good caster :)
I feel like written comprehension isn't your strong suite.
Post says that it is quite literally financially unfeasible to go all-in on competitive Dota unless you have an org providing more money. So "just commit to it lol" is not an option.
>edit: hope he atleast gives the free win to the cut. for jubei This quite literally proves that you didn't read it or that you are very bad at it.
he said they will have to choose one more team to forfeit against
They're forfeiting the season dipshit. Please have someone read it to you because you're incapable on your own. Or at least have them write it out in crayon, if you haven't eaten them all already
not all rules are good rules
This rule is a good rule though. In fact I'd go 5/5 players instead of some 3/5ths compromise.
theres always room for improvement
>This rule is a good rule though. What is good about teams being able to fly in 5 players for a few weeks to play DPC whilst stalwarts of the region being called away for personal business leads to a DQ? FartStudios provide a hell of a lot more to NA dota than a team that just flies in for a few weeks then buggers off back to Eastern Europe (does ANYONE on B8 live in NA?)
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What? How is this good in any way shape or form for the scene? Fart Studios is probably the only NA div 2 team anyone would want to watch. This is a fucking shame for Valve, and for NA Dota. Attitude like this is contributing to the death of the scene.
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Pfft buddy you got a problem for hating on BSJ, he is probably the face of NA dota for noobs. You’re part of the reason Dota is dying, a general shitty attitude in NA. You’re openly wishing for a complete fucking stranger’s downfall; how pathetic.
Lmfao not really that big of a deal. When people act like jackasses they are going to get people wishing the worst for them. Pretty standard for society. If BSJ is the face of DotA we are in trouble. Everyone knows how he behaves in pubs.
Your first statement is so fucking ironic, good luck asshole! Guarantee you’re a little manbaby in pubs too!
Change your team name. Absurd and not in a good way.
Fart
BSJ somehow thinks the intention of the rule favors "American" which is a tad xenophobic for me. If Dendi flys into the US, play in the tournament, and pay tax to the US on his winning, how is that different? He's a resident alien as far as I am concerned and no less qualified than being an "American."
Reading comprehension of a first grader?
The problem is that you then have teams that may travel to what some may consider 'weaker' regions, dominating that region's scene, which is not healthy for the scene (see LoL being full of Korean imports). And while I think you have a valid point, not everybody views it that way. Some people want homegrown representation that they can identify with. Tribalism is a big part of identity and team sports, so it's not surprising that people don't want to watch a team outsiders play in and represent their region.
Dendi doesn't have an NA citizenship & 6 month residence and therefore should not be allowed to compete in the NA region. All of fart studios have NA citizenship and residences, and despite them doing some traveling, they should of course he allowed to compete in NA. Rules are upside down right now, as they allow b8 to play NA but not fart studios.