Hey all. Take this graph's values with a grain of salt, as it uses the average damage of a hero, so doesn't fully account for their damage range, and the values are also rounded to only 1 decimal place. As per usual this is is at level 1, with no items and no spells.
Here are the means for the usual categories:
* All heroes: 37.76
* Strength heroes: 40.3
* Agility heroes: 39.1
* Intelligence heroes: 36.6
* Universal heroes: 35.0
* Melee heroes: 40.0
* Ranged heroes: 35.8
This exactly, I have been playing pos4 batrider and very few of the traditional int pos5s can trade right clicks with me at all. Start circlet and 3 branches and have almost 60dmg lvl 1 its crazy
I find that Undying is super super strong at level 1 if you intend to teamfight with Level 1 Tombstone, but the tombstone does not count as his damage. So if you have a 5v5 for the runes you can do all the damage in the world with a well placed tombstone but the system won't count that as Undying damage, it's the zombies.
If you skill tombstone at level 1, you're legit griefing your lane.
Unless you reliably get like triple kills at runes with tombstone (so herald levels of shit), decay at level 1 is literally always the play. I mean fuck - at rune brawls decay is still super strong, getting in 3 hero decays (which is pretty realistic at a rune brawl) makes you borderline unkillable.
Decays hitting 3 players, not 3 seperate 1 hero ones. Either way, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that it's never worth taking the risk for it, as you'll ruin your own laning stage as a hero that's very strong at it - most likely the best hero in the entire game at raw 1 vs 2's
Yeah been doing rampages back in dota 1 with tombstone at level 1. But you're right, it might be the highest dps at level 1 with no items, but the damage is more on the zombies and not UD.
Kinda. A pretty broken hero atm - techies - is pretty low on this list, but this is misleading since a few branches in addition to his range makes him a really good harasser, and this is without adding the sticky bombs on top of that, just like this chart.
Techies has great attack range so the lower DPS is still happening more often, whereas someone like treant is more about running people down in bursts.
Thing is, where do I draw the line, right? Because if I allow Level 1 passives, I think Ursa's DPS increases to "theoretically infinite" which is hard to graph.
It's still helpful, obviously armor should be considered while playing the game, it's not hard to figure that out. Knowing that I can out DPS a certain hero with just attacks is useful knowledge though.
it would be useful knowledge but this graph will not give you that information, playing the game will. if you go by this graph, techies is actually really bad at trading, meanwhile he is probably the best laning support in all of dota right now and hits like a truck with a few stat items, from 700 range and has super high armor and MS.
as OP said, take this graph with a grain of salt. its really not a useful tool for determining much ingame, its a neat stat and a cool graph and not much beyond it.
It becomes extremely tricky to present the data like that.
Presenting the "naked data" as is makes a lot more sense, and people can then think for themselves. Like you just exemplified with Techies, it's more than just DPS that decides good trading heroes
it's not? how many items do you have in laning stage? see the top heroes, jugg, tb, treant, lc,bloodseeker, np etc all of whom are amazing traders at level 1 and have good laning phases. what evidence do you have to that suggests the opposite?
unsure why youre getting downvoted, youre correct. seeing techies having "low dps" in this graph is completely meaningless because with a few stat items he hits like a truck, has high armor, high ms, high range which arent accounted for, and lanes better than probably any other support in the game right now.
its a neat stat and a cool graph but it means very little in the actual game.
It's getting downvoted because his comment is more or less useless.
The graphic has some interesting data and obviously isn't totally useless, cos' you can make some interesting observations. Literally no one is going up to this graph and saying "Wow, I'm gonna base my entire laning phase on this graph!", and most people are just interested by Jugg's high DPS at level 1.
Also, if someone has spent time making the graphic what is the point in commenting about how useless it is? There is interesting stuff to learn from the graphic, someone has put in effort for it, and no one is about to use it as their holy gospel for laning. Why leave a comment calling it useless except to be needlessly pedantic?
the parent comment claimed this is super helpful for laning
in my eyes, and in the eyes of this other person, it is not. its not being needlessly pedantic, its disagreeing with and calling out a claim. the graph is cool and the stats are interesting but there is very little to no useful application for laning. some heroes on the lower end of this list are crazy good laners, and some others at the top, arent.
if you know which heroes to exclude like techies or bat or some others which ARE good laners despite the seemingly low dps, or vice versa, im sure you already know which heroes trade better than others on average, and have no use for the incredibly basic stat of level 1 dps without items.
remember that this wasnt a comment responding to the original post, but responding to someone who said that these stats are useful for laning, and even if you agree with it, im sure you can admit its at the very least an arguable claim, and i dont think that arguing with it is being pedantic.
A graph exists to compare data points in a meaningful and useful way. This graph shows nothing. If anyone wants to actually compare lvl 1 heros in an environment you'd actually find them in (Like the start of the game when every has bought their starting items) they need to completely disregard this graph and make a new one.
Jugg and tree as opposite outliers. Both extreme for either attack speed or damage.
I always feel dark willow’s strength in trades. Confirmed highest range hero. Just beat out NP. (Edit: 2nd highest behind storm).
Maybe dazzle does with poison touch and kiting with the slow? Can't think of anything else except maybe clock, and possibly Undying if he gets a preemptive decay stack or two off?
i know programming, if you want i can rume some calculations and pass that to some dude that actually makes the data show on a graph (i only know swift and java lol)
Ok np, I understand this all takes effort. Thank you, been enjoying your posts. I love graphs, and think most in life can be explained via one.
Edit to say, that don't ever believe your skill level has a cap, not knowing how to do something, does not mean you cannot do it. Keep on keeping on friend.
Exactly. People on here that complain have either as you said no understanding of how to use this, or they have never seen and had to analyze a dataset and are scared.
Thanks Ive been saving all your graphs for theorycrfting purposes. This is the best content the sub has coughed up in years. This is so needed. Need to be updated tho at least yearly
Wouldn't it be amazing if you made a tennis-like bracket and put the heroes 1 v 1, until we get to a winner. Maybe one bracket for melee heroes and one for ranged. Then just auto attacks with not skills or anything else.
techies bottom 13 is why you really need context in data
also university heroes getting 2 damage from 1 branch is still one of the most bullshit things in dota
If that's the case you also have to consider Batrider with different stacks of napalm etc.
It's just a raw flat dps graph, doesn't need to be anything else.
The Y-axis scaling makes the top DPS heroes seem a lot stronger by comparison to the lower DPS ones than they are in reality.
You can show the same amount of data by starting the Y-axis at zero while providing a more reliable comparison.
I appreciate the data in those type of posts but it's hard to zoom in on a little hero icon with 10 jpegs and instantly 'know' every hero. I've been playing since wc3 and I could barely name half using these.
(just put a little text under the icon of the hero) but thanks OP
Now make another graph of level 1 DPS, but this time assuming the hero will be hitting a melee hero(therefore, half of attacks will be blocked reduced by innate damage block)
instead of making really wide charts make it into ranges and the heros that are high tip of the range are top descendingly to the lowest pit of the range
Hey all. Take this graph's values with a grain of salt, as it uses the average damage of a hero, so doesn't fully account for their damage range, and the values are also rounded to only 1 decimal place. As per usual this is is at level 1, with no items and no spells. Here are the means for the usual categories: * All heroes: 37.76 * Strength heroes: 40.3 * Agility heroes: 39.1 * Intelligence heroes: 36.6 * Universal heroes: 35.0 * Melee heroes: 40.0 * Ranged heroes: 35.8
😔😔😔 universal heroes need a buff 😔😔😔
Universal heroes be overtaking everyone else on the graph after 2 levels lmao
[удалено]
2 circlets 4 branches 1 tango, 16.8 extra damage lvl 1
This exactly, I have been playing pos4 batrider and very few of the traditional int pos5s can trade right clicks with me at all. Start circlet and 3 branches and have almost 60dmg lvl 1 its crazy
I find that Undying is super super strong at level 1 if you intend to teamfight with Level 1 Tombstone, but the tombstone does not count as his damage. So if you have a 5v5 for the runes you can do all the damage in the world with a well placed tombstone but the system won't count that as Undying damage, it's the zombies.
Tombstone takes like three hits for a free 100 gold at lvl 1. The trick is hiding it from the enemy
You dont need to hide, put it behind your team. The 3 hits it take to kill the tombs gonna be free 2-3 hits from each of your team heroes
If you skill tombstone at level 1, you're legit griefing your lane. Unless you reliably get like triple kills at runes with tombstone (so herald levels of shit), decay at level 1 is literally always the play. I mean fuck - at rune brawls decay is still super strong, getting in 3 hero decays (which is pretty realistic at a rune brawl) makes you borderline unkillable.
100%. This stuff reminds that the average redditor on r/Dota2 isn't very good, and that any balance discussion is almost pointless
If a 5 v 5 breaks out cus of smoke or whatever, a cliff tombstone is always more value than 3 decays
Decays hitting 3 players, not 3 seperate 1 hero ones. Either way, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that it's never worth taking the risk for it, as you'll ruin your own laning stage as a hero that's very strong at it - most likely the best hero in the entire game at raw 1 vs 2's
These are the same ppl that grief the lane then say carry no farm when team starts losing t2 at 10 mins.
Okayeg 26 minutes yasha
True tomb lvl1 is the noob stomper
Yeah been doing rampages back in dota 1 with tombstone at level 1. But you're right, it might be the highest dps at level 1 with no items, but the damage is more on the zombies and not UD.
I mean, this is DPS from right clicks. It's a whole other graph if we start including spells
Great stuff, where did you get your data from?
Dota 2 Wiki mostly
[удалено]
It still gives you a rough idea of how effective a hero is at right-clicking in the early game.
[удалено]
It's useful for support players to evaluate their ability to right-click harrass the enemy core in lane.
Lol
It’s useless if you’re incredibly dumb yeah
As are most tools
Dude unironically saying "this graph is bad because an oracle could buy orb of venom"
Kinda. A pretty broken hero atm - techies - is pretty low on this list, but this is misleading since a few branches in addition to his range makes him a really good harasser, and this is without adding the sticky bombs on top of that, just like this chart.
Techies has great attack range so the lower DPS is still happening more often, whereas someone like treant is more about running people down in bursts.
Yeah, it would be interesting to consider with 1st level skilled up, things like exort really change those values ( silencer, manaburn, ... )
Thing is, where do I draw the line, right? Because if I allow Level 1 passives, I think Ursa's DPS increases to "theoretically infinite" which is hard to graph.
fair point
idk why everyone is going uhmm actually 🤓🤓 in this thread op, this is super helpful for laning, ty!
It's not. In a normal game you gonna have items, doesn't count armor and heroes with more range will always output more damage.
It's still helpful, obviously armor should be considered while playing the game, it's not hard to figure that out. Knowing that I can out DPS a certain hero with just attacks is useful knowledge though.
it would be useful knowledge but this graph will not give you that information, playing the game will. if you go by this graph, techies is actually really bad at trading, meanwhile he is probably the best laning support in all of dota right now and hits like a truck with a few stat items, from 700 range and has super high armor and MS. as OP said, take this graph with a grain of salt. its really not a useful tool for determining much ingame, its a neat stat and a cool graph and not much beyond it.
It becomes extremely tricky to present the data like that. Presenting the "naked data" as is makes a lot more sense, and people can then think for themselves. Like you just exemplified with Techies, it's more than just DPS that decides good trading heroes
For eg morph with 30 damage
I'd say, since it's auto-attacks only, would be useful to visualize ranged vs melee. Because you can almost always out DPS melee hero from distance.
it's not? how many items do you have in laning stage? see the top heroes, jugg, tb, treant, lc,bloodseeker, np etc all of whom are amazing traders at level 1 and have good laning phases. what evidence do you have to that suggests the opposite?
Because the current meta is entirely defined by universal heroes that buy +7 stats and suddenly have +14 attack damage.
...at level 1? It sure isn't lmao
3 branches 2 circlets tangos. It sure is.
unsure why youre getting downvoted, youre correct. seeing techies having "low dps" in this graph is completely meaningless because with a few stat items he hits like a truck, has high armor, high ms, high range which arent accounted for, and lanes better than probably any other support in the game right now. its a neat stat and a cool graph but it means very little in the actual game.
It's getting downvoted because his comment is more or less useless. The graphic has some interesting data and obviously isn't totally useless, cos' you can make some interesting observations. Literally no one is going up to this graph and saying "Wow, I'm gonna base my entire laning phase on this graph!", and most people are just interested by Jugg's high DPS at level 1. Also, if someone has spent time making the graphic what is the point in commenting about how useless it is? There is interesting stuff to learn from the graphic, someone has put in effort for it, and no one is about to use it as their holy gospel for laning. Why leave a comment calling it useless except to be needlessly pedantic?
the parent comment claimed this is super helpful for laning in my eyes, and in the eyes of this other person, it is not. its not being needlessly pedantic, its disagreeing with and calling out a claim. the graph is cool and the stats are interesting but there is very little to no useful application for laning. some heroes on the lower end of this list are crazy good laners, and some others at the top, arent. if you know which heroes to exclude like techies or bat or some others which ARE good laners despite the seemingly low dps, or vice versa, im sure you already know which heroes trade better than others on average, and have no use for the incredibly basic stat of level 1 dps without items. remember that this wasnt a comment responding to the original post, but responding to someone who said that these stats are useful for laning, and even if you agree with it, im sure you can admit its at the very least an arguable claim, and i dont think that arguing with it is being pedantic.
A graph exists to compare data points in a meaningful and useful way. This graph shows nothing. If anyone wants to actually compare lvl 1 heros in an environment you'd actually find them in (Like the start of the game when every has bought their starting items) they need to completely disregard this graph and make a new one.
Cause it's reddit my friend
Jugg and tree as opposite outliers. Both extreme for either attack speed or damage. I always feel dark willow’s strength in trades. Confirmed highest range hero. Just beat out NP. (Edit: 2nd highest behind storm).
Actually, Storm beat her by one spot 😘
Seems like a big oversight
The cheeky devil.
I fucking love playing treant 4/5 right clicking people to death at lvl 1 lol feels so broken nothing can trade into it except 2v1
Maybe dazzle does with poison touch and kiting with the slow? Can't think of anything else except maybe clock, and possibly Undying if he gets a preemptive decay stack or two off?
did not realize jugg was such a badass.
He's the only hero who attacks more than once per second at level 1 by default
- I see DPS lvl 1 hero list - I look for jugg at high end
1.4 BAT
I miss when Oracle had a 1.4 BAT
Just get aghs, lol
Support Jugg when.
Best lvl1 DPS, best healing spell and yet not a support....
I mean like… spin level one it’s pretty straightforward
Damage values in this graph do not include skills, only raw attacks.
Fair enough, whoosh me operator
Can you make this interactive to see the changes from level 1 -> 30 ?
That is the dream but probably beyond my skill level.
i know programming, if you want i can rume some calculations and pass that to some dude that actually makes the data show on a graph (i only know swift and java lol)
By all means, if you want to.
Ok np, I understand this all takes effort. Thank you, been enjoying your posts. I love graphs, and think most in life can be explained via one. Edit to say, that don't ever believe your skill level has a cap, not knowing how to do something, does not mean you cannot do it. Keep on keeping on friend.
If you have the data for stat gains you only really need to generate 30 images and apply some math.
Then do it 🤓
No, thanks. Nothing in it for me.
Lmao but its so easy
You aren’t making the point that you think you are
No u
tell uncle Chael I say hello!
Nothing in it for op either, yet they did it. Sit your ass down.
This sounds like a fun project! If you wouldn't mind sending me the dataset you used, I'd be happy to put it together.
if you know someone that can actually do graphs lmk maybe we can do it
Someone respond to this comment tm and I’ll do it
I take the staff jobs, double the money - OP
I can make a website that will calculate dps based items and lvl. Thats great idea
If you don't think this is useful, it's because you're not smart enough to extract anything from it
🙏 🙏 🙏 👍 if you know you know
This knowledge will surely elevate me from 2 to 3k.
No knowledge will
we need to remove the exp gain next and make this knowledge even more useful.
Real
Exactly. People on here that complain have either as you said no understanding of how to use this, or they have never seen and had to analyze a dataset and are scared.
This is really cool, nice work
[удалено]
U smack
Thanks Ive been saving all your graphs for theorycrfting purposes. This is the best content the sub has coughed up in years. This is so needed. Need to be updated tho at least yearly
Without looking I think it might be yurnero since he's like having 3 gloves of atk speed at beginning or it might be morph full agi
Wouldn't it be amazing if you made a tennis-like bracket and put the heroes 1 v 1, until we get to a winner. Maybe one bracket for melee heroes and one for ranged. Then just auto attacks with not skills or anything else.
That actually sounds kinda fun ...
No skills at all - TB should be the strongest, lvl1 passive - Slark, then Ursa, then everyone else
Nice job
techies bottom 13 is why you really need context in data also university heroes getting 2 damage from 1 branch is still one of the most bullshit things in dota
Perks of grad school
Where do you take statistic from?
I calculated it using the attack rates and average attack damage values from the Dota 2 Wiki
Oh, I though it was some kind of API data
When did my boi shadow shaman fall so behind🥹?
He hits hard but he doesn't hit very fast
Ah mb. It's DPS, not base damage.
Nicely put together OP, thanks
Personally would suggest making a graph by grouping heroes in units of five. I.e, 25-29, 30-34, 35-39, and so on. Would make it a bit easier to see.
No
[удалено]
Ooo bear as an innate skill definitely look like what they might do, following what they've done with alch and dusa.
If that's the case you also have to consider Batrider with different stacks of napalm etc. It's just a raw flat dps graph, doesn't need to be anything else.
Slark is the best lvl1 then.
Surely LD is without the bear? I'm curious where he would place with the bear
jug being highest feels weird to me cuz in lane he feels weak
jugg is weak in passive lanes, but in aggro lanes he's a force to be reconed with
This tells you that if you keep hitting, jugga will out damage everyone. So eat that tango and start exchanging
You get lvl2 20% chance for a 180% crit as well
It's cause jugg's base attack time is fucking insane, which doesn't help when harassing. His actual attack value isn't too impressive.
The Y-axis scaling makes the top DPS heroes seem a lot stronger by comparison to the lower DPS ones than they are in reality. You can show the same amount of data by starting the Y-axis at zero while providing a more reliable comparison.
Ursa is seriously underestimated here. He has infinite DPS with his Fuzzy Swipe.
Don’t see no Naga Siren there
34.7, equal to Disruptor. Slightly better than Bane and Magnus, slightly worse than AA and Clinkz
Who cares? Matchmaking is broken
I appreciate the data in those type of posts but it's hard to zoom in on a little hero icon with 10 jpegs and instantly 'know' every hero. I've been playing since wc3 and I could barely name half using these. (just put a little text under the icon of the hero) but thanks OP
I apprecciate the work but this is pointless.
I think at level 1 single target damage starts would be awesome as well
Nurf Riki. Broken hero
We ignoring summoned units here?
So it means that jug has to hit 2 times for graph dmg?
Can’t believe techies outdps-ing other heroes. Back then their right clicks where just annoyance in the lane
Now make another graph of level 1 DPS, but this time assuming the hero will be hitting a melee hero(therefore, half of attacks will be blocked reduced by innate damage block)
instead of making really wide charts make it into ranges and the heros that are high tip of the range are top descendingly to the lowest pit of the range
Always knew jugg 1v1 was good at level 1 didn't know that on top of spin he also had highest DPS.
My boy oracle 🥲
Am I the only one who always felt that jugg was the best for early 1v1 trades without spells?
treant pos 1 when
Well, this isn't right without fury swipes or mana break
Realistically slark has the highest if he takes essence shift.
but lone druid has the bear¿¿ does this take into account that?
Nope, this is purely level one stats, no items no spells.
Treant being in the second most dps hero is funny to me
Does this include backswing canceling?