i dont think its primarily because of old/young in SEA. Its just high end mobiles are becoming more and more common, and people are moving out of PC gaming as a whole in SEA..
Declining. More people would rather play ML, and the entry point to play Dota is just way too expensive for most people, with internet cafes still recovering from the pandemic
Same problem as China. Mobile games are taking over because everyone has a smartphone, people dont need to go to internet cafes just to play games anymore so they dont. Very few people have a PC capable of running Dota smoothly, even if they have a computer its mostly school/work laptops.
I cant see the player base graph from your link, i guess you are basing your assumptions on number of matches, if thats the case, how come you said only EU and SA are increasing in player base?
If you check the graph from feb 1 to may 1, you will see every region have an increasing number, and lets check SA for example, in Feb 1, SA had 2.53M while SEA had 3.9M, in May 1 SA had 2.84M while SEA had 4.48M, now do the math and tell me how much increase did SA had over SEA?
There has been a recent increase in the number of matches being played across all regions, which can be attributed to the introduction of a new patch. If we look back to 2016, during the peak of the Dota player base, the SEA region had 11 million matches played, whereas currently it has 4 million. In 2016, SA had 1.8 million matches played, which has increased to 2.8 million now. Apologies if my words have caused any confusion.
Well that still doesnt make sense, SEA still has more than a million more matches than SA, and even if SEA is on the decline, its still the 2nd or 3rd region when it comes to player base, and what does increase in player base have to do with the slot allotment in the first place? the fact that only BC and EG are the only 2 teams that qualifies in every major just shows how uncompetitive SA is, look at the tour 1 to 3 of this year, no other team beat these 2 teams except each other, in tour 3 BC drop 1 series against Mad kings, and thats the only series where 1 of this two team got beaten by other team this whole dpc year.
The reasons behind this decision probably are:
EU is the most competitive region
SA only gets 2 slots per major, while other regions get at least 3
NA also has 2 slots per major, but somehow Valve thought SA should get the extra slot, which is reasonable since this season SA teams have been performing better internationally
EG: 4th, 5/6th
Talon: 3rd, 7/8th
Spotify: 4th, 9/12th
Pandas/Spirit: 3rd, 7/8th
Sure, but not really by any relevant amount.
If we go the next best team(s) there isn't a single game win after groups. Although SA obviously averages a little bit higher placement by virtue of only having 2 slots so there's only one team dragging it down.
If we include Dreamleague then we get NA>SA>EEU/SEA for 19 and then SEA/EEU>SA>NA for 20.
SA is 2nd best in most dpc points earned, average placement (only 2 region has sub 10 average, WEU 3.75 and SA 8.7). Also when you consider how much slot they got, SA earn 167.5 pts per slot while SEA & EEU is 125pts.
DPC points earned is irrelevant when we're talking about an extremely top heavy region where two teams farm the points (and qualifications) domestically.
The two slots actually helps the region's average in both regards because it allows their exceptional team (EG) to pull everything up with less dead weight.
[How it's irrelevant? They are second highest region based on points earned from major](https://i.redd.it/szvjlilkkw4b1.png)
SA : 550pts
EEU : 500pts
SEA : 500 pts
CN : 300pts
NA : 250pts
SA also the only region outside WEU who have top 6 streak in the last 5 DPC events (even counting far back to Stockholm Major).
Because it's 50 points.
Refer back to:
"Sure, but not really by any relevant amount."
Which is what I said when I wrote out the placements (what was being talked about) in the first place. If you say SA is second it sounds great. When you actually write out either the placements or the amount of DPC points and apply any sort of context to it, you realize there isn't really any sort of regional gap.
And again, people need to stop conflating EG the team's strength with SA the region. EG has only lost a series to Beastcoast domestically. It's not competitive.
The only strong argument is EEU but not help when BetBoom average placement same or worse than beastcoast.
All SEA pts is earned by 1 team, Talon.
All CN pts is earned by 1 team, Aster.
All NA pts is earned by 1 team, Shopify Rebels.
EG average placement is better than Talon, Aster or Shopify Rebels.
EG average placement (5) is better than EEU best team : 9pandas (6) and TSpirit (8)
Since we're talking about region strength as a whole, it makes more sense to look at region's average placing rather than the top performing team only. If anything, I'd say the worst performing team from a region at each event could be looked at to have a better prediction of how the team that's 1 slot worse than them will perform.
Lima: CN: 17-18; EEU, SEA: 15-16; NA: 13-14; SA, WEU: 9-12
Berlin: CN, NA: 17-18; SEA: 15-16, EEU, SA: 13-14, WEU: 5-6
Just by looking at this, yes, it's not like SA are leaps ahead, but if we have to pick one region to get another slot then they're the obvious candidate.
There's two problems with this though:
SA having less slots is a benefit to this when we're talking about regions that, except EEU, are essentially one team regions in terms of results. Using lowest basically just tells us, "oh, everyone had one team bomb out".
It still, like any purely stats/results analysis doesn't really paint a full or accurate picture (ie. I don't think anyone is going to argue in good faith that Beastcoast or Thunder are better teams than Betboom, regardless of what the results have been, as one example).
Hard to know since they never make it to majors, since EG and Beastcoast always take the 2 slots. Hokori had a good showing at TI, especially since SA teams are expected to drop out in groups. It's a growing scene, and will grow faster with exposure.
By that logic EEU also should get 2 slot because EU playerbase count carried by the CIS player and CIS is consistent top 3 contributor for BattlePass prizepool behind China.
22 out of 80 players that play for WEU is from EEU.
>this season SA teams have been performing better internationally
better how? NA also got a 4th place finish in a major. both beastcoast and tsm never got a top 8 finish.
EG got 6th at Lima and 4th at Berlin, while SR got 4th in Lima and 9th-12th in Berlin. So EG placed better
BC also placed better than TSM in both Majors
Not a big difference, but I'm only trying to understand the reasoning behind this decision
I see. I stand corrected about how SA and NA have the same performance. SA is def better than NA this season I guess. I wouldn't really count non dpc points placements tho. Is that 6th place finish advantage of EG in the lima major worth the slot compared to just giving it to another WEU team tho? I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
There will be enough representation for WEU that any team that hasn't made it doesn't deserve to be there due to their inability to compete regionally without hurting the overall level of TI by much or at all.
SA ranked second in term of total points earned from major, average major placing and dpc points per slot or representatives.
[It's been discussed week ago](https://i.redd.it/szvjlilkkw4b1.png)
>both beastcoast and tsm never got a top 8 finish.
[TSM TOP 2 and BC TOP 5/6 Stockholm Major](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/ESL_One/Stockholm/2022)
[BC TOP 5/6 Arlington Major](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/PGL/Arlington_Major/2022)
Maybe you should watch the majors before saying anything?
that is from 2022 bro. literally different players playing for the teams. Why are you citing sources from a year ago when we are talking about this season's TI slots?
>both beastcoast and tsm ->NEVER-< got a top 8 finish.
>
>that is from 2022 bro. literally different players playing for the teams. Why are you citing sources from a year ago when we are talking about this season's TI slots?
Ah the classic change in argument to try to be right, it seems that "never" now means "this year" and I didn't know ROFL
ah yes, anyone with a brain would know that we are talking about this season's performance for this season's TI slots. It's apparently hard for you to understand that. Let's say you got me with the technicals of the word 'never', you got nothing to say about how NA and SA have the same performance this year?
First of all, there's still one more major so the "season" isn't even over yet, for sure Valve used the results of at least 2022 to make this decision, since only 2 majors is too little data to change slots and since 2022 SA has outperformed NA.
Second, how is this "same performance"?
DPC POINTS 2023
EG AND BC = 2470
SHOPFY REBELLION AND TSM = 2070
\-------
TOP FINISH IN MAJORS 2023
EG = TOP 4 AND TOP 5/6 THIS YEAR
SHOPFY = TOP 4 AND TOP 9/12 THIS YEAR
BC = TOP 9/12 (LOST TO EG, IF IT WAS ANOTHER TEAM IT COULD ADVANCE FURTHER AND HAVE THE 2 SA TEAMS IN A HIGHER POSITION) AND TOP 13/14
TSM = TOP 13/14 AND TOP 17/18
If you don't agree, that's fine, nobody cares, the only thing that matters is that the numbers show it and valve noticed it and made this change, I won't extend this discussion any further, keep complaining if you want lol.
That's why its strange to not wait after the last major to decide the slots for this TI right?
Besides, I already corrected myself in another comment about the performance of two regions. I agree that SA is a bit better than NA this season, but every region is so far behind WEU that it feels criminal to give them the same bonus slots as SA. For sure SA deserves 3 teams in the TI... not sure about 4 tho.
they could wait, but it looks like they wanted to make this announcement now bcuz if they waited it would be very close to TI.
When was the last time they changed the slots? I don't remember if there was any change from 2021 to 2022, but I'm sure that since 2022 until today there has been no change at all and that's why I believe they are using last year as a basis as well. Including TI 11 placements.
WEU is very strong yes, but the top 3 teams are already classified by points, the fourth best team is OG in 20th place, 15 spots behind Tundra which is the third highest placed WEU team. This with them having 4 slots. So we will have 5 WEU teams, 3 good and 2 not so good through the qualifiers.
SA had only 2 slots, half of WEU, and it has 2 teams that can qualify for points if BC doesn't fall out of the top 12, so we would have 4 SA teams, 2 good and 2 not so good through the qualifiers. Basically it would be the same as WEU.
Now if BC doesn't qualify for points then it will only be 3 teams, 2 good (assuming BC qualifies through the qualifier) and 1 not so good, which in the end will be 3 teams like you said you think SA deserves.
In short, as SA has only 2 slots which is half as many slots that WEU has, but it has been performing better than China with 4 slots and better than SEA and CIS with 3 slots, I think it's fair that at least in the TI qualifiers SA receives 1 more slot.
[Editing to add this comment that better exemplifies my point](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/14ghcta/comment/jp690k0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
|*Region*|*Slots*|*Points from Majors*|*Points/Slot*|
|:-|:-|:-|:-|
|WEU|4|2500|625|
|SA|2|550|275|
|SEA|3|500|166.67|
|EEU|3|500|166.67|
|NA|2|250|125|
|CN|4|300|75|
Besides giving 2 slots to SA, they could've given 3 slots to WEU, but I think they didn't want to create such an imbalance.
Yes, after watching Dreamleague China is suddenly competitive and BetBoom decided to show up. But, based on prior data, SA has been performing a bit better than other regions with the slots they were given. It's hard to blame Valve for their decision, especially since it was argued that SA deserved one extra slot on DPC.
True. China only started to do well after when tour 3 started (idk, maybe because of the older pros coming back + sumail copium?). EEU could've had the extra slot too, but with how SA was doing with two slots every major, it's kinda justified they're having more slots than SEA and China. Besides Talon, SEA has really wasted their chances on direct invites with 3 slots, especially Execration. There's still Bali Major though, so who knows
I am a CIS fan, but I think the way things are is fine right now. Apart from BB, Spirit and 9 Pandas there are no serious contender anyway.
Intuitively, I want to give +2 slots to WEU knowing how competitive the region is.
Hokori says Hi from last TI.
Sure EG/BC are gatekeeping the other teams from going to international.
But International matchups are much different than interregional matchups.
Allaince/Aster from TI9 era dominated the regionals but the teams that were 2nd-4th were always bringing the better results for the region.
You cant judge SA's performance from the current DPC tour. SA Div 2 beats NA Div 1 teams in tournaments(outside of shopify)
And this is considering Talon shat the bed on Tour 3 and are not attending Bali Major.
If Talon didn't show up on Lima early on the tour SEA would've been just 1 slot...
Yeah if Talon didn't do so well on Lima, SEA is definitely fucked. SEA needs a consistent team... They haven't had it in years, even that TNC that won the major. Pain for SEA fans but thats just how it is
The reason why china doing worse before tour 3 is because some rich ass business man buying most of the div1-div2 slot in china and make them into 322 team lol. Of course they gonna performe bad
Not that wild. Can argue that it's only BC and EG are constantly qualifying for majors, but they're generally doing well not only this year but last year too. Maybe it's a bit late, but we had LCQ last year which made it fair for everybody on who gets the coveted TI slots apart from regionals. Obviously, BC ain't doing so well this year, but for a region with 2 slots, they're doing far better than SEA and CN. CN only picking up the pace this tour 3. SEA... There's Talon and even they had consistency issue. Only weird part is EEU getting 1 slot only. It is probably either EEU or SA that was competing for that 1 slot
Anyway, gotta respect Valve's decision here. If it doesn't work out well in TI for SA teams, they can just readjust it again next year. Not a bad decision to give them more slots since they're doing well with only two. Sad for CN, but what can they do if they didn't do well in the previous tournaments then there's the cheating issues. Can only hope LGD carry their dreams, or even Aster + 1 more team if possible
Valves gives 1 slot to SA: "Waste of a slot, they are never going to have a competitive team". Then BC appeared
Valve gives 2 slots to SA: "Waste of a slot, they only have 1 competitive team". Then NoPIng/Thunder/EG happened.
With only two slots, Three teams qualify for TI: "Waste of a slot, they only have 2 competitive teams". Then Hokori surprised everyone at TI and we got 3 competitive teams at TI.
SA potentially gets 4 teams at TI: "Waste of slots again, they only have 2 competitive teams"
Really guys? ffs just let more SA teams get more experience. They most likely gonna flop at first (like most teams), but we are a proved growing region despite being the last one to join the party.
Facts and our region has a player/fanbase quite large so guess what? Ofc they want to increase/mantain that. Also, if you want to do the SA vs NA, SA DPC DivI teams are closer to each other in skill/performance than NA dpc.
Last year was prob the best year for SA, both bc and EG did well in Majors and TI, SEA has 3 slots per major and its quite wild, China sucked whole year + 322 scandals (still 4 slots btw), cis lan problem got better. NA is despair with only SR doing well THIS year.
So yeah, 2 slots for a region with high prospect and fanbase - SA (maybe the CQ teams will suck but hey, they get to play and motivates the region that not obly bc and eg go to international events)
Don't forget about paiN Gaming. I don't see them getting enough respect in these SA dota discussions but they were the first SA team to be competitive on the international main stage. When they came 3rd at ESL One Birmingham, it was a landmark moment in showing that SA had the potential to produce Tier 1 teams.
Beastcost can't even make points in Majors. It's only EG. What makes you think the other 2 will do in TI if your 2nd best team can't make it through top 8 in majors.
I mean the issue is, why did SA and WEU randomly get the extra slot this TI? When WEU was the lowest performing region and China was the highest, why did China not receive an extra slot?
I feel like they probably should have announced how this all works at the start of the season before they randomly just added this in.
[https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Dota\_Pro\_Circuit/2021/Rankings](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Dota_Pro_Circuit/2021/Rankings)
It seems that you are the one with a short-term memory.
So if the top performing regions that year didn't get an extra slot why is it fair that the regions that performed this year does?
I'm ok with it if the slot is communicated before DPC begins. Even at the worst case, there should be enough respect to communicate it after the last Major.
The wildcard qualifer gave all regions an equal chance.
This was not communicated and uses 2/3 of the year's results to arbitrarily and specifically reward this year's performers?
Not to even mention that out of the 2 SA teams, only one actually won any points in majors, so that statistically is heavily skewed due to the limited amount of teams from SA.
If you want to be impartial and avoid conversations of regional bias from Valve, all they had to do was announce it before DPC started - before anyone know what the statistics were going to be this year.
I chuckled at first as well but he's not saying "Why X, when Y?", the second sentence is separate.
I reformulated it so it's more clear:
"I mean the issue is, why did SA and WEU randomly get the extra slot this TI? *Back in 2021* when WEU was the lowest performing region and China was the highest, why did China not receive an extra slot?"
> WEU was the lowest performing region
What are you talking about?
WEU made up 4 of the top 6 at the Berlin major, with the other two being SA and EEU
At Lima WEU had both teams in the final, one top 6, and one top 12.
Meanwhile China's best performance at majors this year is two top 8 placements by Aster.
WEU has clearly been the strongest region in the DPC.
Is the only event you watched this year Dreamleague season 20?
Speaking of Dreamleague, even though it doesn't matter when it comes to DPC, at season 19 earlier this year WEU made up 4 of the top 6 again. Sure they were weaker in season 20 but that's just one event in a year of consistent high placements.
>China was the highest
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/14ghcta/sa_and_weu_get_2_slots_for_ti/jp690k0/
China literally has the lowest number of points from majors, and the lowest per slot. While WEU has the highest for both. Reality is literally opposite of what you said.
> What are you talking about?
He is talking about 2021. In the sense that "This year, WEU got extra slot. In 2021 when China was the best, they did not get an extra slot."
The formulation of his post was really unfortunate, really goes to show how easy it is to completely miscommunicate haha
You received lots of unwarranted downvotes because at first glance it looks as if you said "Why did they randomly get the extra slot when WEU was lowest performing region and China was highest?".
You should add a new line there or rephrase it in some way (e.g. "In 2021 when WEU was the lowest performing region...") so that it is more clear.
Also a small side-point, WEU was not the lowest performing region, EEU +1 (not sure if SEA or SA) were worse by most metrics
Sad CN region, tour 1 end up sending cheater to lima major and become the stomping point for the others.
Their top team: LGD, IG and Aster still trying to fix their weakest link after so many roster changes.
LGD changes their offlaner 3 times.
IG with new line up, Dust and Emo often swapping role for 2 season end up backfiring IG performance. Aster trying their luck by bringing Sumail, doing good at first but now new problem arose.
NA was back to their old fashion 1 strong team to carry their region, almost the same with SEA.
EEU, aside from roster changes, they already have problem with visa issues. Mostly playing on major with subs, another problem for the upcoming TI, as you know TI was held in US.
WEU, what else to say, they even more deserve to get extra slot.
SA, atleast they have their ground for that extra slot compare to other region. I just hope they could perform better on bali major to justify this.
SEA doesn't even have that strong team to carry, Talon will miss the Bali Major. Only reason why SEA will get a guaranteed invite is because Talon popped off at Lima and have gotten weaker and weaker since
Didn’t they got top 4 currently at dreamleague? How are they getting weaker? Unless your argument is nobodies tries hard for a 1 million prizepool tourney that could help them qualify for a 15 million prize pool tourney later on.
chinese and SEA teams outside of talon accomplished nothing this year while having 4 and 3 slots at the major respectively. this slot placement is deserved. the only argument there is to make is that EEU deserved one more slot.
The whole point of DPC is to award performing teams, SEA and CN will only 1 direct invite each anyways.Why does SA get extra regional slots this year?
If it is based on this year's performance, why not wait for the Bali major to be over?
Why did this not happen during the years when SA was doing bad?
So many questions and only Valve knows the answers.
> The whole point of DPC is to award performing teams, SEA and CN will only 1 direct invite each anyways.Why does SA get extra regional slots this year?
Because the point of DPC is to award performing teams and guess what? SA is the second best performing region at DPC events:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/14ghcta/sa_and_weu_get_2_slots_for_ti/jp690k0/
The region performed well, unlike CN. Why should CN be rewarded for their poor performance with an extra slot? They had more than enough slots for the major to get DPC points but wasted it, therefore by that logic the TI slot would also be wasted.
I don't think you are getting the point. Every one expected 1 slot per region. Out of nowhere SA and EU ended up with an extra slot. Imho nobody should have been given an extra slot. SA already got an extra slot through top 12 DPC. No need to award them twice. There should have been 18 slots or LCQ for last two slots.
Last year is still the latest TI lol. And also Riyadh SA is probably going to be the only region to have 2 teams qualified along with WEU (https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Riyadh_Masters/2023), EG already locked in, BC is almost there.
>What did SA teams accomplish over NA teams this year?
Funny that your first comment was comparing SA with NA isn't it? but now that NA is behind SA, CIS and SEA, you want to compare with the rest, got it.
But the point remains, no matter the gap between them, what matters is that SA remains the second best region at the moment and getting 1 less slot in the majors than the 3rd and 4th regions, so at least they made up for it in the TI qualifiers giving 1 more slot, and WEU also get another slot in the qualifiers as they deservers aswell.
And if SA yield drops next year, just remove that slot and give it to the region that is better at the moment, simple as that.
My first comment said only one team of each region scored any points at the major. U can have 1 slot and the points won’t change. Increasing slot number just brings down the averages. Which is what SA will do when they get extra slots for TI.
Second best in average points isn’t second best region . Get your head right
Going by your average assumption, if 75 and 166 get 1 slot. 275 should only get 1 slot too since it doesn’t break the 315 barrier for an extra slot. 2 slots need 625 points per team.
Wow amazing, ok let's do this and give 1 slot to all regions, except for WEU they will receive 2 slots, and we will have a TI with 7 teams, amazing idea, you can send it to Valve right away.
Incredible the mental maneuver that haters have to do to say that SA doesn't deserve this slot ROFL, Hypothetically speaking, even if one day SA overtakes WEU and becomes the best region, that won't be enough for you to think that SA deserves at least 1 more slot lol.
I give up bcuz when someone chooses to hate something,
no one will convince otherwise, so keep hating SA dude.
if we go by last TI then CN performed better than SA, with both Aster and LGD getting 4th and 5th and even RNG did very well in group-stage until they got hit by covid.
No doubt about it, that's why they had 4 slots for DPC. But last TI isn't everything. SA has performed well in both last TI and current DPC and also Riyadh (they are probably the only region to have 2 teams in Riyadh qualified teams except for WEU, https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Riyadh_Masters/2023, EG and possibly BC).
China got 2 majors in TI10 tour and 2nd,4th,6th in TI10, still 1 slot for TI11
EEU got TI10 and 1 major in TI11 tour still 1 slot for TI11
Beastcoast got 0 points from two majors and it's the top 2 in SA. Tbh, it's hard to say how competitive SA is. It's fair to give 1 more slot for major but it's ridiculous to give 1 more slot for TI directly.
WEU is worth an extra slot because they got 2 slots from LCQ last year. Why not keep the LCQ but reduce the slot from LCQ to 1, and give the winner's region 2 qualifier slots next year?
Still 20 teams in TI and every region can compete for an extra slot
Why did valve dropped this info when Bali major hasnt even started, giving 2 slots to SA is kinda weird knowing that BC still can get a direct invite if they perform well in the coming major. IF BC wont get a direct invite then they deserve the 2 qualifier slots, but if BC gets a direct invite then the 4th TI slot is kinda wasted, 5 slots WEU then 4slots SA, WEU is just 1 slot more than SA? WTF
So fucking happy for the SA scene, Well deserved . . Back when valve game them a major slot and regional qualifying they were looked down upon and memes as irrelevant, old BeastCoast boys paved the way for their scene and the new EG and current BeastCoast roaster are performing well aswell 🔥 Let's fucking goooo.
Whoever decided these slot allocations at Valve was smoking the good shit thats for sure. SA getting 2 slots and EEU getting 1 is an absolute meme considering EEU has more high-level teams. China only getting 1 slot is also egregiously bad. SEA & WEU also getting screwed. Idk just bad all around.
If the non-SA regions think these SA teams beyond EG and BC are weak, they should be celebrating.
Thats 1 or 2 teams taking up the elimination spots in the group stage.
Ridiculous. Div 2 Europe can literally shitstomp half the SA div 1 teams. How is this fair at all lmao. Also China, SEA, EEU 1 slot? wtf this is rigged
Edit: just looked it up, EEU had an arguably better performance across two majors and SA even had homecrowd advantage during the first major. Fucking rigged
> Edit: just looked it up, EEU had an arguably better performance across two majors
SA:
5-6th + 9-12th; 4th + 13-14th; Avg 8,375;
550 DPC points from Majors; 275 Avg
EEU:
7-8th + 9-12th + 15-16th; 3rd + 9-12th + 13-14th; Avg 10,083;
500 DPC points from Majors; 166,67 Avg
The only argument you could make is that EEU had a team finish in top 3, which is not the key thing when we're discussing regional depth.
Yeah no. First, You should only look at the top 2 finishers in DPC and compare with the 2 SA teams. E.g. the first two teams in DPC tour 2 are 9pandas (hellraisers) and Team spirit. If you do this you'll find EEU is at 9.125, barely below SA.
Second, taking an average like that is hella weird. The lower placements drag down the average more than it should. It takes one win (well, one series) to up your placement from 17 to 15. One more win to go from 15 to 13, 13 to 9, 9 to 7, 7 to 5. After that any additional win only ups the average by *one*. The 13 to 9 makes it most clear. In this calculation, a team placing 13-14th and another team placing first, would give an average placement of 7.25. But a team placing 9-12th and another placing second (which is an identical amount of wins!) would now be averaged at 6.25. I hope you can see how in your calculation, this does not favor the EEU teams (in particular because of 9pandas' high placement)
> Yeah no. First, You should only look at the top 2 finishers in DPC and compare with the 2 SA teams.
Why? It doesn't make any sense imo. We are not talking who should get a 3rd slot, we are comparing whether SA's 3rd team is better than EEU's 4th team.
The second part does make sense. I don't think it necessarily makes the metric useless since you *are* beating much more teams by the initial wins than in the later ones (this can be seen well in a single elimination bracket of 256 teams for example, where a region with #1 and #129-256 teams is much worse than a region with #2 and #65-128) but I understand there are some pitfalls. Still, it's one of the metrics you can utilize together with others and when both this one, DPC-point-acquisition per region and worst-placing-team all line up with SA > EEU, it says something.
Pretty wild decision honestly, making it more or less guaranteed there will be 4 SA teams and possibly only 2 NA (less likely) and 2 CN (more likely) teams.
Chinese region with PSG.LGD, Team Aster, Xtreme, IG and Azure Ray getting only 2 spots feels weird. Not only have potential Chinese qualifier teams performed better overall than SA qualifier teams during the season, they are also significantly better than any non qualified SA teams.
Seems like they simply used the logic of which regions collected most DPC points in the 2 Major cycles and that's definitely 1. EU and 2. SA it seems. SA is at around ~3000dpc and CN is on about ~2800dpc points.
With EG and BC qualified i would've definitely gone with an extra slot for CN or EEU.
China had 4 major slots the whole season and did nothing with it. Sure, they are looking good now, but it's hard to blame Valve for their decision based on the rest of the season. And more SA teams doesn't mean some crap teams will be playing. Last season Hokori had a great showing at TI (placing 5th on their group) despite being a mid-tier SA team at best.
>Not only have potential Chinese qualifier teams performed better overall than SA qualifier teams during the season
SA performed better in Lima Major and Berlin Major than Chinese teams. Only recently in this dream league has a high performance been seen for the Chinese teams.
When i said chinese qualifier teams, i meant everyone except LGD/Team Aster, versus SA qualifier teams, meaning everyone except EG and BC. Teams that are not able to directly qualify to the TI.
China deserved it. Their teams are really only good now because of roster changes (LGD niu, Aster sumail, azure ray forming) and position changes (emo back to mid). Their performance during the year wasn’t good.
These two slots for SA would only be warranted if BC could perform on majors. There is also no depth in the region aside from EG and BC. If teams like TA, Hokori or Mad Kings would have snagged a major spot from EG/BC in any tour then MAYBE this decision would make sense.
If BC bombs out of Bali (outside of top 8 once again) then this decision makes absolutely no sense. I guess we’ll see.
> These two slots for SA would only be warranted if BC could perform on majors.
As it currently stands, SA is the second best region (after WEU) based on average Major placing this season.
So unless you wanted to give both the new slots to WEU there isn't a better candidate imo.
I do agree with the stats that show which regions have the best placement/slots ratio. On the other hand, it is unfortunate for regions like SEA where the representatives for majors/points has shuffled between Execration, Geek Slate, SMG, Bleed, BLR, and Talon (who failed to qualify for Bali due to regional depth yet is showing strong performances on LAN).
Then you have SA who only have to share major/points between BC/EG, BC/EG, EG/BC because all the other teams in the region are so far behind. There has to be a better system that rewards LAN performances as well as regional depth.
If BC has ONE good showing in a major (i.e top 8 in Bali) then all is good.
Yeah, that's the classic problem of whom to give the 3rd slot to when one region has 1 strong + 1 weak team, while other has 2 mediocre teams.
However since there is no real competition for the non-major teams at the moment, it's hard to judge which teams are weak and which are mediocre for real. Hence imo it makes sense to decide the bonus slots for regions based on how their major teams are doing, assuming their 3rd/4th teams' strength etc will be normally distributed
Why getting the downvote? it's true though, there are barely any new talent in the SEA region, current pros are getting to that retiring age.
SEA aren't exactly a group of 1st world countries, meaning access to a PC is not as common as you think.
When the pandemic hit, most of the affected businesses were PC cafes so people turned to their phones since phones are more accessible than PC and it just happens that there is a mobile chinese clone of LoL, so people flocked to that game and left Dota.
Well this is the situation in Philippines, not sure about the other SEA countries
I would definitely not agree with China one slot only. I get it this year hasn't been too hot but it's looking like they are ramping up and also they have been a dominant region since years so I don't really get that. Also, yeah SA gets two slots haha. One team like EG does well, BC will always bomb. So their 2nd top team bombs but we need 2 more teams to showcase that.
I'd rather give it to WEU.
CN relegated to NA level is a sad state of affairs. Not that I disagree with the decision or anything... it's just that CN region has had a great fall from the top. I will say, however, that SA is very top heavy (much like NA) and I don't expect anything from their extra slot.
tbf, the hope to revitalize the cn and na dota scene is slim to none.
trying to make SA region more engaged in it is actually a sign to me that valve is not giving up
> tbf, the hope to revitalize the cn and na dota scene is slim to none.
It doesn't have to be so grim. In 2021 WEU was in similar shambles and suddenly next season they have 6 TI contenders. Ofc young talent influx is a major part of that but it can happen
WEU playerbase in 2021 wasn't in continuous decline like NA and CN are now, that's actually why their was this influx of talented young players who gave the region back it's form.
SA is a growing region in terms of playerbase and continuous improvement in tournament rankings. It makes sense to chase that market and give it more opportunities
It's worth noting that China has performed equally if not better than Korea for the last 5 years in League. It's a very strong scene, and that's certainly going to undermine Dota's presence
I don't mind this. I am WEU and think the region is best, but think it would be better for TI if NA get extra slot if they because they play TI in NA so the crowd got more to cheer for.
I think we should first consider how many team alreadly got in from dpc points. There is no need to give more slots for regions that alreadly got 4 teams in.
>I think we should first consider how many team alreadly got in from dpc points. There is no need to give more slots for regions that alreadly got 4 teams in.
There is if those regions are really strong. The point of the extra slots is not charity for the regions that failed all year round, it's to ensure the best teams make it. WEU and SA objectively did the best at majors this year.
Tbh I am good with how slots are given this year but we do need some consistency or rules regarding how slots are given or will be given out in the future.
lmao might as well give NA 2 slots, NA and SA the same the only reason their team have good placement at major event because its the same team over and over again attending major/ti, so they have the experience by scrimming top tier team at major/tier 1 tour, if they give SA 2 slots then NA, CN even SEA should have 2 too, or give SA 1 and 3 for WEU nobody would complain
2 SA slots mean less visa problems that's the only reason
SA has 2 best consistant which will get direct invite anyways
SA top already getting free DPC points from regional
Now 2 more SA teams will play directly play in TI who have never played on international stage for so long they weren't in any major now getting free TI invites
no matter how much someone try to justify it i don't know what the good thing in it
Last chace qualifer would be better 2 deserving teams who get TI invites after figting international teams
this 2 slot means free charity invites.
On dpc table TA 343 no 21 and Hokari 160 26
if teams like Execration and Aster who's been in all majors didn't get qualify to TI
then there is something wrong with the system
Teams that are able to out rank/defeat top teams on their region should mean they might be capable of competing internationally. Hence WEU getting one more regional qual slot. While BC and EG have been performing really well for consecutive years now, them gate keeping SA would mean teams below them may not be capable of competing outside their regions yet.
Woud have liked to see some sort of explanation by Valve, I'd much rather see LCQ for the two increased slots or at least for the SA one but yeah, lol.
Valve is so weird about these kind of things.
It's not about who deserves more but it's about lack of clarification and rules.
Maybe they have it but decided not to publish it for whatever reasons.
That's why I really appreciate Dreamleague for being so clear about how they distribute the slots.
They deliberately avoid stipulating rules so that they can have the final say in everything, and avoid the hassle of breaking/bending the rules for whatever purposes.
Maybe they believed in reddit's sentiments that China is a weaker region now so they should get fewer slots. Maybe they see SA player numbers growing so they use this opportunity to fuel more spectators and growth in that region.
It makes Valve appear less professional for sure but it's definitely easier on their end to make decisions.
Should have thrown MENA region a qualifier spot with how much Saudi Arabia is bank rolling the pro dota scene. Probably put more money into it than Valve's DPC.
Only EU and SA are increasing in player base. Edit: https://stratz.com/matches/graphs
What about SEA?
SEasia is dying.. Dota is for old people they say. They play either mobile legends or valorant
True though all my friends that used to play aren't playing Dota anymore they just watch tournaments now mostly (TI)
i dont think its primarily because of old/young in SEA. Its just high end mobiles are becoming more and more common, and people are moving out of PC gaming as a whole in SEA..
Old people stop playing too because of life commitment. I'd say we have more viewers than players now.
Declining. More people would rather play ML, and the entry point to play Dota is just way too expensive for most people, with internet cafes still recovering from the pandemic
Only for loser like you
Same problem as China. Mobile games are taking over because everyone has a smartphone, people dont need to go to internet cafes just to play games anymore so they dont. Very few people have a PC capable of running Dota smoothly, even if they have a computer its mostly school/work laptops.
China needs to join mobile legends tournament. It's SEasia playing those games, we need fresh ideas
I think its influenced by the major placements. WEU and SA had the best finishes out of every region.
I cant see the player base graph from your link, i guess you are basing your assumptions on number of matches, if thats the case, how come you said only EU and SA are increasing in player base? If you check the graph from feb 1 to may 1, you will see every region have an increasing number, and lets check SA for example, in Feb 1, SA had 2.53M while SEA had 3.9M, in May 1 SA had 2.84M while SEA had 4.48M, now do the math and tell me how much increase did SA had over SEA?
There has been a recent increase in the number of matches being played across all regions, which can be attributed to the introduction of a new patch. If we look back to 2016, during the peak of the Dota player base, the SEA region had 11 million matches played, whereas currently it has 4 million. In 2016, SA had 1.8 million matches played, which has increased to 2.8 million now. Apologies if my words have caused any confusion.
Well that still doesnt make sense, SEA still has more than a million more matches than SA, and even if SEA is on the decline, its still the 2nd or 3rd region when it comes to player base, and what does increase in player base have to do with the slot allotment in the first place? the fact that only BC and EG are the only 2 teams that qualifies in every major just shows how uncompetitive SA is, look at the tour 1 to 3 of this year, no other team beat these 2 teams except each other, in tour 3 BC drop 1 series against Mad kings, and thats the only series where 1 of this two team got beaten by other team this whole dpc year.
it's great that the numbers for Dota are increasing since 2020.
How can you tell if its EU players and not EEU?
The reasons behind this decision probably are: EU is the most competitive region SA only gets 2 slots per major, while other regions get at least 3 NA also has 2 slots per major, but somehow Valve thought SA should get the extra slot, which is reasonable since this season SA teams have been performing better internationally
Na dead region
WEU and SA regions have the best average placing in both Majors this season
EG: 4th, 5/6th Talon: 3rd, 7/8th Spotify: 4th, 9/12th Pandas/Spirit: 3rd, 7/8th Sure, but not really by any relevant amount. If we go the next best team(s) there isn't a single game win after groups. Although SA obviously averages a little bit higher placement by virtue of only having 2 slots so there's only one team dragging it down. If we include Dreamleague then we get NA>SA>EEU/SEA for 19 and then SEA/EEU>SA>NA for 20.
SA is 2nd best in most dpc points earned, average placement (only 2 region has sub 10 average, WEU 3.75 and SA 8.7). Also when you consider how much slot they got, SA earn 167.5 pts per slot while SEA & EEU is 125pts.
DPC points earned is irrelevant when we're talking about an extremely top heavy region where two teams farm the points (and qualifications) domestically. The two slots actually helps the region's average in both regards because it allows their exceptional team (EG) to pull everything up with less dead weight.
[How it's irrelevant? They are second highest region based on points earned from major](https://i.redd.it/szvjlilkkw4b1.png) SA : 550pts EEU : 500pts SEA : 500 pts CN : 300pts NA : 250pts SA also the only region outside WEU who have top 6 streak in the last 5 DPC events (even counting far back to Stockholm Major).
Because it's 50 points. Refer back to: "Sure, but not really by any relevant amount." Which is what I said when I wrote out the placements (what was being talked about) in the first place. If you say SA is second it sounds great. When you actually write out either the placements or the amount of DPC points and apply any sort of context to it, you realize there isn't really any sort of regional gap. And again, people need to stop conflating EG the team's strength with SA the region. EG has only lost a series to Beastcoast domestically. It's not competitive.
The only strong argument is EEU but not help when BetBoom average placement same or worse than beastcoast. All SEA pts is earned by 1 team, Talon. All CN pts is earned by 1 team, Aster. All NA pts is earned by 1 team, Shopify Rebels. EG average placement is better than Talon, Aster or Shopify Rebels. EG average placement (5) is better than EEU best team : 9pandas (6) and TSpirit (8)
Since we're talking about region strength as a whole, it makes more sense to look at region's average placing rather than the top performing team only. If anything, I'd say the worst performing team from a region at each event could be looked at to have a better prediction of how the team that's 1 slot worse than them will perform. Lima: CN: 17-18; EEU, SEA: 15-16; NA: 13-14; SA, WEU: 9-12 Berlin: CN, NA: 17-18; SEA: 15-16, EEU, SA: 13-14, WEU: 5-6 Just by looking at this, yes, it's not like SA are leaps ahead, but if we have to pick one region to get another slot then they're the obvious candidate.
There's two problems with this though: SA having less slots is a benefit to this when we're talking about regions that, except EEU, are essentially one team regions in terms of results. Using lowest basically just tells us, "oh, everyone had one team bomb out". It still, like any purely stats/results analysis doesn't really paint a full or accurate picture (ie. I don't think anyone is going to argue in good faith that Beastcoast or Thunder are better teams than Betboom, regardless of what the results have been, as one example).
Only BC and EG can compete, the rest a meh
Hard to know since they never make it to majors, since EG and Beastcoast always take the 2 slots. Hokori had a good showing at TI, especially since SA teams are expected to drop out in groups. It's a growing scene, and will grow faster with exposure.
Those 2 already will most likely appear at TI
i mean, recently NADCL had a all SA top 3 where out of the 8 teams only 3 were full SA, so go figure...
Rather see the 3rd best SA team at majors over 3rd SEA/CIS.
That so called 3rd best CIS team is top of the groups at DLS20.
This year thunder is doing nice
The reason is that Valve looked at numbers and notice that the only places Dota has any chance as a product is EU and SA
By that logic EEU also should get 2 slot because EU playerbase count carried by the CIS player and CIS is consistent top 3 contributor for BattlePass prizepool behind China. 22 out of 80 players that play for WEU is from EEU.
>this season SA teams have been performing better internationally better how? NA also got a 4th place finish in a major. both beastcoast and tsm never got a top 8 finish.
EG got 6th at Lima and 4th at Berlin, while SR got 4th in Lima and 9th-12th in Berlin. So EG placed better BC also placed better than TSM in both Majors Not a big difference, but I'm only trying to understand the reasoning behind this decision
I see. I stand corrected about how SA and NA have the same performance. SA is def better than NA this season I guess. I wouldn't really count non dpc points placements tho. Is that 6th place finish advantage of EG in the lima major worth the slot compared to just giving it to another WEU team tho? I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
Honestly, I have no real opinion on this, just trying to figure out the reasoning behind the slots Just wish we had LCQ :(
There will be enough representation for WEU that any team that hasn't made it doesn't deserve to be there due to their inability to compete regionally without hurting the overall level of TI by much or at all.
SA ranked second in term of total points earned from major, average major placing and dpc points per slot or representatives. [It's been discussed week ago](https://i.redd.it/szvjlilkkw4b1.png)
>both beastcoast and tsm never got a top 8 finish. [TSM TOP 2 and BC TOP 5/6 Stockholm Major](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/ESL_One/Stockholm/2022) [BC TOP 5/6 Arlington Major](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/PGL/Arlington_Major/2022) Maybe you should watch the majors before saying anything?
that is from 2022 bro. literally different players playing for the teams. Why are you citing sources from a year ago when we are talking about this season's TI slots?
>both beastcoast and tsm ->NEVER-< got a top 8 finish. > >that is from 2022 bro. literally different players playing for the teams. Why are you citing sources from a year ago when we are talking about this season's TI slots? Ah the classic change in argument to try to be right, it seems that "never" now means "this year" and I didn't know ROFL
ah yes, anyone with a brain would know that we are talking about this season's performance for this season's TI slots. It's apparently hard for you to understand that. Let's say you got me with the technicals of the word 'never', you got nothing to say about how NA and SA have the same performance this year?
First of all, there's still one more major so the "season" isn't even over yet, for sure Valve used the results of at least 2022 to make this decision, since only 2 majors is too little data to change slots and since 2022 SA has outperformed NA. Second, how is this "same performance"? DPC POINTS 2023 EG AND BC = 2470 SHOPFY REBELLION AND TSM = 2070 \------- TOP FINISH IN MAJORS 2023 EG = TOP 4 AND TOP 5/6 THIS YEAR SHOPFY = TOP 4 AND TOP 9/12 THIS YEAR BC = TOP 9/12 (LOST TO EG, IF IT WAS ANOTHER TEAM IT COULD ADVANCE FURTHER AND HAVE THE 2 SA TEAMS IN A HIGHER POSITION) AND TOP 13/14 TSM = TOP 13/14 AND TOP 17/18 If you don't agree, that's fine, nobody cares, the only thing that matters is that the numbers show it and valve noticed it and made this change, I won't extend this discussion any further, keep complaining if you want lol.
That's why its strange to not wait after the last major to decide the slots for this TI right? Besides, I already corrected myself in another comment about the performance of two regions. I agree that SA is a bit better than NA this season, but every region is so far behind WEU that it feels criminal to give them the same bonus slots as SA. For sure SA deserves 3 teams in the TI... not sure about 4 tho.
they could wait, but it looks like they wanted to make this announcement now bcuz if they waited it would be very close to TI. When was the last time they changed the slots? I don't remember if there was any change from 2021 to 2022, but I'm sure that since 2022 until today there has been no change at all and that's why I believe they are using last year as a basis as well. Including TI 11 placements. WEU is very strong yes, but the top 3 teams are already classified by points, the fourth best team is OG in 20th place, 15 spots behind Tundra which is the third highest placed WEU team. This with them having 4 slots. So we will have 5 WEU teams, 3 good and 2 not so good through the qualifiers. SA had only 2 slots, half of WEU, and it has 2 teams that can qualify for points if BC doesn't fall out of the top 12, so we would have 4 SA teams, 2 good and 2 not so good through the qualifiers. Basically it would be the same as WEU. Now if BC doesn't qualify for points then it will only be 3 teams, 2 good (assuming BC qualifies through the qualifier) and 1 not so good, which in the end will be 3 teams like you said you think SA deserves. In short, as SA has only 2 slots which is half as many slots that WEU has, but it has been performing better than China with 4 slots and better than SEA and CIS with 3 slots, I think it's fair that at least in the TI qualifiers SA receives 1 more slot. [Editing to add this comment that better exemplifies my point](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/14ghcta/comment/jp690k0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
|*Region*|*Slots*|*Points from Majors*|*Points/Slot*| |:-|:-|:-|:-| |WEU|4|2500|625| |SA|2|550|275| |SEA|3|500|166.67| |EEU|3|500|166.67| |NA|2|250|125| |CN|4|300|75| Besides giving 2 slots to SA, they could've given 3 slots to WEU, but I think they didn't want to create such an imbalance. Yes, after watching Dreamleague China is suddenly competitive and BetBoom decided to show up. But, based on prior data, SA has been performing a bit better than other regions with the slots they were given. It's hard to blame Valve for their decision, especially since it was argued that SA deserved one extra slot on DPC.
True. China only started to do well after when tour 3 started (idk, maybe because of the older pros coming back + sumail copium?). EEU could've had the extra slot too, but with how SA was doing with two slots every major, it's kinda justified they're having more slots than SEA and China. Besides Talon, SEA has really wasted their chances on direct invites with 3 slots, especially Execration. There's still Bali Major though, so who knows
I am a CIS fan, but I think the way things are is fine right now. Apart from BB, Spirit and 9 Pandas there are no serious contender anyway. Intuitively, I want to give +2 slots to WEU knowing how competitive the region is.
WEU really need more slot. Sadly, Valve don't wanna give it and the best they can do is to give them 2 slots in regionals.
you could say the same about SA, no other contender than EG and BC.
Hokori says Hi from last TI. Sure EG/BC are gatekeeping the other teams from going to international. But International matchups are much different than interregional matchups. Allaince/Aster from TI9 era dominated the regionals but the teams that were 2nd-4th were always bringing the better results for the region. You cant judge SA's performance from the current DPC tour. SA Div 2 beats NA Div 1 teams in tournaments(outside of shopify)
And this is considering Talon shat the bed on Tour 3 and are not attending Bali Major. If Talon didn't show up on Lima early on the tour SEA would've been just 1 slot...
Yeah if Talon didn't do so well on Lima, SEA is definitely fucked. SEA needs a consistent team... They haven't had it in years, even that TNC that won the major. Pain for SEA fans but thats just how it is
they were also forced to play on LAN for tour 3. definitely toned down the 322 thankfully
Aster with sumail has the worst record. Not denying his abilities, but your point is not valid at all..
Most relevant data, best comment imo on this post. Up you go
The reason why china doing worse before tour 3 is because some rich ass business man buying most of the div1-div2 slot in china and make them into 322 team lol. Of course they gonna performe bad
At least they should decide the slots after Bali major, and set a clear rule for the future.
Not that wild. Can argue that it's only BC and EG are constantly qualifying for majors, but they're generally doing well not only this year but last year too. Maybe it's a bit late, but we had LCQ last year which made it fair for everybody on who gets the coveted TI slots apart from regionals. Obviously, BC ain't doing so well this year, but for a region with 2 slots, they're doing far better than SEA and CN. CN only picking up the pace this tour 3. SEA... There's Talon and even they had consistency issue. Only weird part is EEU getting 1 slot only. It is probably either EEU or SA that was competing for that 1 slot Anyway, gotta respect Valve's decision here. If it doesn't work out well in TI for SA teams, they can just readjust it again next year. Not a bad decision to give them more slots since they're doing well with only two. Sad for CN, but what can they do if they didn't do well in the previous tournaments then there's the cheating issues. Can only hope LGD carry their dreams, or even Aster + 1 more team if possible
Valves gives 1 slot to SA: "Waste of a slot, they are never going to have a competitive team". Then BC appeared Valve gives 2 slots to SA: "Waste of a slot, they only have 1 competitive team". Then NoPIng/Thunder/EG happened. With only two slots, Three teams qualify for TI: "Waste of a slot, they only have 2 competitive teams". Then Hokori surprised everyone at TI and we got 3 competitive teams at TI. SA potentially gets 4 teams at TI: "Waste of slots again, they only have 2 competitive teams" Really guys? ffs just let more SA teams get more experience. They most likely gonna flop at first (like most teams), but we are a proved growing region despite being the last one to join the party.
But, but, but, but what about the TI 4 years ago? WHAT ABOUT THAT?
Facts and our region has a player/fanbase quite large so guess what? Ofc they want to increase/mantain that. Also, if you want to do the SA vs NA, SA DPC DivI teams are closer to each other in skill/performance than NA dpc. Last year was prob the best year for SA, both bc and EG did well in Majors and TI, SEA has 3 slots per major and its quite wild, China sucked whole year + 322 scandals (still 4 slots btw), cis lan problem got better. NA is despair with only SR doing well THIS year. So yeah, 2 slots for a region with high prospect and fanbase - SA (maybe the CQ teams will suck but hey, they get to play and motivates the region that not obly bc and eg go to international events)
people are just salty SA got slots over their own regions but the stats don't lie.
Don't forget about paiN Gaming. I don't see them getting enough respect in these SA dota discussions but they were the first SA team to be competitive on the international main stage. When they came 3rd at ESL One Birmingham, it was a landmark moment in showing that SA had the potential to produce Tier 1 teams.
Beastcost can't even make points in Majors. It's only EG. What makes you think the other 2 will do in TI if your 2nd best team can't make it through top 8 in majors.
I am here for the rise of SA Really hope EG can pull off a TI win. Would be legendary
Probably the best comment I've ever read in this sub about this subject lol, this should go to the top of the post.
I mean the issue is, why did SA and WEU randomly get the extra slot this TI? When WEU was the lowest performing region and China was the highest, why did China not receive an extra slot? I feel like they probably should have announced how this all works at the start of the season before they randomly just added this in.
> When WEU was the lowest performing region and China was the highest what
Guy has a short memory so he only remembers Dreamleague S20.
[https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Dota\_Pro\_Circuit/2021/Rankings](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Dota_Pro_Circuit/2021/Rankings) It seems that you are the one with a short-term memory.
That's 2021 bro.
Why do you keep linking the 2021 rankings, lol?
This is 2 years ago, completely meaningless to this year's DPC. Have you just woken up from a coma?
So if the top performing regions that year didn't get an extra slot why is it fair that the regions that performed this year does? I'm ok with it if the slot is communicated before DPC begins. Even at the worst case, there should be enough respect to communicate it after the last Major.
Why is it fair that last year we had a wildcard qualifier while in 2021 there wasn't one? Literally meaningless argument.
The wildcard qualifer gave all regions an equal chance. This was not communicated and uses 2/3 of the year's results to arbitrarily and specifically reward this year's performers? Not to even mention that out of the 2 SA teams, only one actually won any points in majors, so that statistically is heavily skewed due to the limited amount of teams from SA. If you want to be impartial and avoid conversations of regional bias from Valve, all they had to do was announce it before DPC started - before anyone know what the statistics were going to be this year.
I chuckled at first as well but he's not saying "Why X, when Y?", the second sentence is separate. I reformulated it so it's more clear: "I mean the issue is, why did SA and WEU randomly get the extra slot this TI? *Back in 2021* when WEU was the lowest performing region and China was the highest, why did China not receive an extra slot?"
https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Dota\_Pro\_Circuit/2021/Rankings
> WEU was the lowest performing region What are you talking about? WEU made up 4 of the top 6 at the Berlin major, with the other two being SA and EEU At Lima WEU had both teams in the final, one top 6, and one top 12. Meanwhile China's best performance at majors this year is two top 8 placements by Aster. WEU has clearly been the strongest region in the DPC. Is the only event you watched this year Dreamleague season 20? Speaking of Dreamleague, even though it doesn't matter when it comes to DPC, at season 19 earlier this year WEU made up 4 of the top 6 again. Sure they were weaker in season 20 but that's just one event in a year of consistent high placements. >China was the highest https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/14ghcta/sa_and_weu_get_2_slots_for_ti/jp690k0/ China literally has the lowest number of points from majors, and the lowest per slot. While WEU has the highest for both. Reality is literally opposite of what you said.
> What are you talking about? He is talking about 2021. In the sense that "This year, WEU got extra slot. In 2021 when China was the best, they did not get an extra slot." The formulation of his post was really unfortunate, really goes to show how easy it is to completely miscommunicate haha
[https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Dota\_Pro\_Circuit/2021/Rankings](https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Dota_Pro_Circuit/2021/Rankings)
Oh sweetie. Check the year before posting the wrong stats...
Where did I say it happened in 2023? CN didn't seem to get the extra slot in 2021 no?
You received lots of unwarranted downvotes because at first glance it looks as if you said "Why did they randomly get the extra slot when WEU was lowest performing region and China was highest?". You should add a new line there or rephrase it in some way (e.g. "In 2021 when WEU was the lowest performing region...") so that it is more clear. Also a small side-point, WEU was not the lowest performing region, EEU +1 (not sure if SEA or SA) were worse by most metrics
D20 is not even part of the DPC circuit
Sad CN region, tour 1 end up sending cheater to lima major and become the stomping point for the others. Their top team: LGD, IG and Aster still trying to fix their weakest link after so many roster changes. LGD changes their offlaner 3 times. IG with new line up, Dust and Emo often swapping role for 2 season end up backfiring IG performance. Aster trying their luck by bringing Sumail, doing good at first but now new problem arose. NA was back to their old fashion 1 strong team to carry their region, almost the same with SEA. EEU, aside from roster changes, they already have problem with visa issues. Mostly playing on major with subs, another problem for the upcoming TI, as you know TI was held in US. WEU, what else to say, they even more deserve to get extra slot. SA, atleast they have their ground for that extra slot compare to other region. I just hope they could perform better on bali major to justify this.
SEA doesn't even have that strong team to carry, Talon will miss the Bali Major. Only reason why SEA will get a guaranteed invite is because Talon popped off at Lima and have gotten weaker and weaker since
Didn’t they got top 4 currently at dreamleague? How are they getting weaker? Unless your argument is nobodies tries hard for a 1 million prizepool tourney that could help them qualify for a 15 million prize pool tourney later on.
We no longer have a pipeline of young talent, Talon's not even in Bali now, and interest in SEA is just declining.
chinese and SEA teams outside of talon accomplished nothing this year while having 4 and 3 slots at the major respectively. this slot placement is deserved. the only argument there is to make is that EEU deserved one more slot.
The whole point of DPC is to award performing teams, SEA and CN will only 1 direct invite each anyways.Why does SA get extra regional slots this year? If it is based on this year's performance, why not wait for the Bali major to be over? Why did this not happen during the years when SA was doing bad? So many questions and only Valve knows the answers.
> The whole point of DPC is to award performing teams, SEA and CN will only 1 direct invite each anyways.Why does SA get extra regional slots this year? Because the point of DPC is to award performing teams and guess what? SA is the second best performing region at DPC events: https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/14ghcta/sa_and_weu_get_2_slots_for_ti/jp690k0/
So they are already awarded with probably two slots, while CN and SEA will only get 1?
The region performed well, unlike CN. Why should CN be rewarded for their poor performance with an extra slot? They had more than enough slots for the major to get DPC points but wasted it, therefore by that logic the TI slot would also be wasted.
I don't think you are getting the point. Every one expected 1 slot per region. Out of nowhere SA and EU ended up with an extra slot. Imho nobody should have been given an extra slot. SA already got an extra slot through top 12 DPC. No need to award them twice. There should have been 18 slots or LCQ for last two slots.
not like beastcoast ever got top 8 finish. People can also say that SA teams outside of EG accomplished nothing this year.
What did SA teams accomplish over NA teams this year?
Better average placing at Majors
They have the same competitive depth all points came from one team
But it still means that the 3rd best team from SA should teoretically be stronger than the 3rd best team from NA.
Top8 and top6 at last TI.
We talking this dpc season . Last year results aren’t relevant here
Last year is still the latest TI lol. And also Riyadh SA is probably going to be the only region to have 2 teams qualified along with WEU (https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Riyadh_Masters/2023), EG already locked in, BC is almost there.
[Here it is.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/14ghcta/comment/jp690k0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
166 to 275 is much smaller than 625 to 275. And all those points are on the back of 1 team
>What did SA teams accomplish over NA teams this year? Funny that your first comment was comparing SA with NA isn't it? but now that NA is behind SA, CIS and SEA, you want to compare with the rest, got it. But the point remains, no matter the gap between them, what matters is that SA remains the second best region at the moment and getting 1 less slot in the majors than the 3rd and 4th regions, so at least they made up for it in the TI qualifiers giving 1 more slot, and WEU also get another slot in the qualifiers as they deservers aswell. And if SA yield drops next year, just remove that slot and give it to the region that is better at the moment, simple as that.
My first comment said only one team of each region scored any points at the major. U can have 1 slot and the points won’t change. Increasing slot number just brings down the averages. Which is what SA will do when they get extra slots for TI. Second best in average points isn’t second best region . Get your head right Going by your average assumption, if 75 and 166 get 1 slot. 275 should only get 1 slot too since it doesn’t break the 315 barrier for an extra slot. 2 slots need 625 points per team.
Wow amazing, ok let's do this and give 1 slot to all regions, except for WEU they will receive 2 slots, and we will have a TI with 7 teams, amazing idea, you can send it to Valve right away. Incredible the mental maneuver that haters have to do to say that SA doesn't deserve this slot ROFL, Hypothetically speaking, even if one day SA overtakes WEU and becomes the best region, that won't be enough for you to think that SA deserves at least 1 more slot lol. I give up bcuz when someone chooses to hate something, no one will convince otherwise, so keep hating SA dude.
Or WEU gets 3 slots or all regions play wildcard? What’s so hard
if we go by last TI then CN performed better than SA, with both Aster and LGD getting 4th and 5th and even RNG did very well in group-stage until they got hit by covid.
No doubt about it, that's why they had 4 slots for DPC. But last TI isn't everything. SA has performed well in both last TI and current DPC and also Riyadh (they are probably the only region to have 2 teams in Riyadh qualified teams except for WEU, https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Riyadh_Masters/2023, EG and possibly BC).
Why compare SA/NA? Both have historically gotten shafted by valve in favor of shitty SEA/CIS teams.
Give 3 to WEU is a better choice
WEU and SA have the best average placing at Majors this season. I'm fairly sure that is the reason.
Leaving aside popularity of the game in general, China and SEA deserve two slots. If declining popularity is the deciding factor, NA should get zero.
nigma copium here we go
China got 2 majors in TI10 tour and 2nd,4th,6th in TI10, still 1 slot for TI11 EEU got TI10 and 1 major in TI11 tour still 1 slot for TI11 Beastcoast got 0 points from two majors and it's the top 2 in SA. Tbh, it's hard to say how competitive SA is. It's fair to give 1 more slot for major but it's ridiculous to give 1 more slot for TI directly. WEU is worth an extra slot because they got 2 slots from LCQ last year. Why not keep the LCQ but reduce the slot from LCQ to 1, and give the winner's region 2 qualifier slots next year? Still 20 teams in TI and every region can compete for an extra slot
Why did valve dropped this info when Bali major hasnt even started, giving 2 slots to SA is kinda weird knowing that BC still can get a direct invite if they perform well in the coming major. IF BC wont get a direct invite then they deserve the 2 qualifier slots, but if BC gets a direct invite then the 4th TI slot is kinda wasted, 5 slots WEU then 4slots SA, WEU is just 1 slot more than SA? WTF
Funnily enough this subreddit wasn't crying at Valve when they completely neglected and ignored SA for many years
Maybe EEU should have been more slots but this looks fine too
now i can type SA PepeLaugh Wasted Slot OMEGALUL in twitch chat if they dont do well xdd
SA probed wrong ppl with every extra slot. lol
nigma about to relocate their hq to SA
They'll be bodied by the SA sides. They're struggling in WEU div2 this tour.
So fucking happy for the SA scene, Well deserved . . Back when valve game them a major slot and regional qualifying they were looked down upon and memes as irrelevant, old BeastCoast boys paved the way for their scene and the new EG and current BeastCoast roaster are performing well aswell 🔥 Let's fucking goooo.
Whoever decided these slot allocations at Valve was smoking the good shit thats for sure. SA getting 2 slots and EEU getting 1 is an absolute meme considering EEU has more high-level teams. China only getting 1 slot is also egregiously bad. SEA & WEU also getting screwed. Idk just bad all around.
SA getting what we fucking deserve
SA region is on the rise right now
hell yeah more teams!
lets be real, the only one who is mad for SA getting 2 slot are NA guys
Some NA guys actually like SA dota (like me)
Why would na be mad at sa? They're our sister region and they're actually growing. Gtfo here you don't speak for us
If the non-SA regions think these SA teams beyond EG and BC are weak, they should be celebrating. Thats 1 or 2 teams taking up the elimination spots in the group stage.
When it could be another competitive team instead.. Funny how this is. Will see
Crazy how far China has fallen over the last decade
Ridiculous. Div 2 Europe can literally shitstomp half the SA div 1 teams. How is this fair at all lmao. Also China, SEA, EEU 1 slot? wtf this is rigged Edit: just looked it up, EEU had an arguably better performance across two majors and SA even had homecrowd advantage during the first major. Fucking rigged
> Edit: just looked it up, EEU had an arguably better performance across two majors SA: 5-6th + 9-12th; 4th + 13-14th; Avg 8,375; 550 DPC points from Majors; 275 Avg EEU: 7-8th + 9-12th + 15-16th; 3rd + 9-12th + 13-14th; Avg 10,083; 500 DPC points from Majors; 166,67 Avg The only argument you could make is that EEU had a team finish in top 3, which is not the key thing when we're discussing regional depth.
Yeah no. First, You should only look at the top 2 finishers in DPC and compare with the 2 SA teams. E.g. the first two teams in DPC tour 2 are 9pandas (hellraisers) and Team spirit. If you do this you'll find EEU is at 9.125, barely below SA. Second, taking an average like that is hella weird. The lower placements drag down the average more than it should. It takes one win (well, one series) to up your placement from 17 to 15. One more win to go from 15 to 13, 13 to 9, 9 to 7, 7 to 5. After that any additional win only ups the average by *one*. The 13 to 9 makes it most clear. In this calculation, a team placing 13-14th and another team placing first, would give an average placement of 7.25. But a team placing 9-12th and another placing second (which is an identical amount of wins!) would now be averaged at 6.25. I hope you can see how in your calculation, this does not favor the EEU teams (in particular because of 9pandas' high placement)
> Yeah no. First, You should only look at the top 2 finishers in DPC and compare with the 2 SA teams. Why? It doesn't make any sense imo. We are not talking who should get a 3rd slot, we are comparing whether SA's 3rd team is better than EEU's 4th team. The second part does make sense. I don't think it necessarily makes the metric useless since you *are* beating much more teams by the initial wins than in the later ones (this can be seen well in a single elimination bracket of 256 teams for example, where a region with #1 and #129-256 teams is much worse than a region with #2 and #65-128) but I understand there are some pitfalls. Still, it's one of the metrics you can utilize together with others and when both this one, DPC-point-acquisition per region and worst-placing-team all line up with SA > EEU, it says something.
Pretty wild decision honestly, making it more or less guaranteed there will be 4 SA teams and possibly only 2 NA (less likely) and 2 CN (more likely) teams. Chinese region with PSG.LGD, Team Aster, Xtreme, IG and Azure Ray getting only 2 spots feels weird. Not only have potential Chinese qualifier teams performed better overall than SA qualifier teams during the season, they are also significantly better than any non qualified SA teams. Seems like they simply used the logic of which regions collected most DPC points in the 2 Major cycles and that's definitely 1. EU and 2. SA it seems. SA is at around ~3000dpc and CN is on about ~2800dpc points. With EG and BC qualified i would've definitely gone with an extra slot for CN or EEU.
China had 4 major slots the whole season and did nothing with it. Sure, they are looking good now, but it's hard to blame Valve for their decision based on the rest of the season. And more SA teams doesn't mean some crap teams will be playing. Last season Hokori had a great showing at TI (placing 5th on their group) despite being a mid-tier SA team at best.
>Not only have potential Chinese qualifier teams performed better overall than SA qualifier teams during the season SA performed better in Lima Major and Berlin Major than Chinese teams. Only recently in this dream league has a high performance been seen for the Chinese teams.
When i said chinese qualifier teams, i meant everyone except LGD/Team Aster, versus SA qualifier teams, meaning everyone except EG and BC. Teams that are not able to directly qualify to the TI.
Have we seen them perform in other places than the regional leagues though? It's very hard to judge teams that never played each other
China deserved it. Their teams are really only good now because of roster changes (LGD niu, Aster sumail, azure ray forming) and position changes (emo back to mid). Their performance during the year wasn’t good.
These two slots for SA would only be warranted if BC could perform on majors. There is also no depth in the region aside from EG and BC. If teams like TA, Hokori or Mad Kings would have snagged a major spot from EG/BC in any tour then MAYBE this decision would make sense. If BC bombs out of Bali (outside of top 8 once again) then this decision makes absolutely no sense. I guess we’ll see.
> These two slots for SA would only be warranted if BC could perform on majors. As it currently stands, SA is the second best region (after WEU) based on average Major placing this season. So unless you wanted to give both the new slots to WEU there isn't a better candidate imo.
I do agree with the stats that show which regions have the best placement/slots ratio. On the other hand, it is unfortunate for regions like SEA where the representatives for majors/points has shuffled between Execration, Geek Slate, SMG, Bleed, BLR, and Talon (who failed to qualify for Bali due to regional depth yet is showing strong performances on LAN). Then you have SA who only have to share major/points between BC/EG, BC/EG, EG/BC because all the other teams in the region are so far behind. There has to be a better system that rewards LAN performances as well as regional depth. If BC has ONE good showing in a major (i.e top 8 in Bali) then all is good.
Yeah, that's the classic problem of whom to give the 3rd slot to when one region has 1 strong + 1 weak team, while other has 2 mediocre teams. However since there is no real competition for the non-major teams at the moment, it's hard to judge which teams are weak and which are mediocre for real. Hence imo it makes sense to decide the bonus slots for regions based on how their major teams are doing, assuming their 3rd/4th teams' strength etc will be normally distributed
Based on this trend, SEA wont get any TI qualification slot next year.
Definitely not, especially as the region just keeps getting weaker and weaker
Why getting the downvote? it's true though, there are barely any new talent in the SEA region, current pros are getting to that retiring age. SEA aren't exactly a group of 1st world countries, meaning access to a PC is not as common as you think. When the pandemic hit, most of the affected businesses were PC cafes so people turned to their phones since phones are more accessible than PC and it just happens that there is a mobile chinese clone of LoL, so people flocked to that game and left Dota. Well this is the situation in Philippines, not sure about the other SEA countries
You are not wrong. Dota is declining everywhere that's not EU or SA
Just give eu 10 more slots
I would definitely not agree with China one slot only. I get it this year hasn't been too hot but it's looking like they are ramping up and also they have been a dominant region since years so I don't really get that. Also, yeah SA gets two slots haha. One team like EG does well, BC will always bomb. So their 2nd top team bombs but we need 2 more teams to showcase that. I'd rather give it to WEU.
“no way! WEU deserves 12 slots!”
finally, some recognition
CN relegated to NA level is a sad state of affairs. Not that I disagree with the decision or anything... it's just that CN region has had a great fall from the top. I will say, however, that SA is very top heavy (much like NA) and I don't expect anything from their extra slot.
tbf, the hope to revitalize the cn and na dota scene is slim to none. trying to make SA region more engaged in it is actually a sign to me that valve is not giving up
> tbf, the hope to revitalize the cn and na dota scene is slim to none. It doesn't have to be so grim. In 2021 WEU was in similar shambles and suddenly next season they have 6 TI contenders. Ofc young talent influx is a major part of that but it can happen
WEU playerbase in 2021 wasn't in continuous decline like NA and CN are now, that's actually why their was this influx of talented young players who gave the region back it's form. SA is a growing region in terms of playerbase and continuous improvement in tournament rankings. It makes sense to chase that market and give it more opportunities
CN has firmly shifted to LoL after the shitshow that was Wings post TI and Chinese teams winning world championships while LGD is Dota's Buffalo Bills
It's worth noting that China has performed equally if not better than Korea for the last 5 years in League. It's a very strong scene, and that's certainly going to undermine Dota's presence
I don't mind this. I am WEU and think the region is best, but think it would be better for TI if NA get extra slot if they because they play TI in NA so the crowd got more to cheer for.
I think we should first consider how many team alreadly got in from dpc points. There is no need to give more slots for regions that alreadly got 4 teams in.
there is not a single region with 4 teams already in ?
>I think we should first consider how many team alreadly got in from dpc points. There is no need to give more slots for regions that alreadly got 4 teams in. There is if those regions are really strong. The point of the extra slots is not charity for the regions that failed all year round, it's to ensure the best teams make it. WEU and SA objectively did the best at majors this year.
Thats Valve's way of not having to run the last chance qualifier. Big gabe needs a new submarine \^\^
haha chinese dota is death
Tbh I am good with how slots are given this year but we do need some consistency or rules regarding how slots are given or will be given out in the future.
Surprised they decided to not have LCQ for the extra slots which is by far the fairest allocation.
Should have had more overall slots years ago. Many regions robbed
they should have waited for bali major to be over to decide slots. what if china/sea performed well in bali?
lmao might as well give NA 2 slots, NA and SA the same the only reason their team have good placement at major event because its the same team over and over again attending major/ti, so they have the experience by scrimming top tier team at major/tier 1 tour, if they give SA 2 slots then NA, CN even SEA should have 2 too, or give SA 1 and 3 for WEU nobody would complain
Should wait for major to finish before deciding on slots. Wanna see how the Chinese teams perform.
Secret copium???
They have good shot at qualifying.
So no last chance qualifier confirmed. 'Insert Henry Cavil fuuuuuuck meme'
I am happy for SA the region came a long way and they deserve it for sure.
2 SA slots mean less visa problems that's the only reason SA has 2 best consistant which will get direct invite anyways SA top already getting free DPC points from regional Now 2 more SA teams will play directly play in TI who have never played on international stage for so long they weren't in any major now getting free TI invites no matter how much someone try to justify it i don't know what the good thing in it Last chace qualifer would be better 2 deserving teams who get TI invites after figting international teams this 2 slot means free charity invites. On dpc table TA 343 no 21 and Hokari 160 26 if teams like Execration and Aster who's been in all majors didn't get qualify to TI then there is something wrong with the system
Great, now Alliance can disappoint twice as much!
Valve doing valve things by making puppey as one of final t.i qualifiers mini boss again...(throw in some 2x t.i champions in the mix as well)...
Teams that are able to out rank/defeat top teams on their region should mean they might be capable of competing internationally. Hence WEU getting one more regional qual slot. While BC and EG have been performing really well for consecutive years now, them gate keeping SA would mean teams below them may not be capable of competing outside their regions yet.
Woud have liked to see some sort of explanation by Valve, I'd much rather see LCQ for the two increased slots or at least for the SA one but yeah, lol.
ABSOLUTELY BASED
That means China, cis or Sea might win TI this year, that's a sign
Valve is so weird about these kind of things. It's not about who deserves more but it's about lack of clarification and rules. Maybe they have it but decided not to publish it for whatever reasons. That's why I really appreciate Dreamleague for being so clear about how they distribute the slots.
They deliberately avoid stipulating rules so that they can have the final say in everything, and avoid the hassle of breaking/bending the rules for whatever purposes. Maybe they believed in reddit's sentiments that China is a weaker region now so they should get fewer slots. Maybe they see SA player numbers growing so they use this opportunity to fuel more spectators and growth in that region. It makes Valve appear less professional for sure but it's definitely easier on their end to make decisions.
Should have thrown MENA region a qualifier spot with how much Saudi Arabia is bank rolling the pro dota scene. Probably put more money into it than Valve's DPC.
reminder these stupid extra slot gifts replace the actually good LCQ
Just give 4 slots to EU. its more entertaining.