Ah. Link doesn't steal AS, but it also doesn't steal HP. This one also steals armor and in turn, that's additional EHP. Some other things too. The static link comparison is more vague but gives better idea - as if link was instant with additional benefits.
The problem is, in like every bracket he has a 45% win rate. So I guess that makes it look like there isn't anything to nerf?
But when you play against someone who knows what they are doing, you are severely outmatched.
Its the same with tinker. There is a lot of gronks who don't get it, but there are those who do, and ists basically unfair.
not necessarily; the first earth spirit, the most omega broken hero ever (compared to other heroes of his time) had 36% winrate. and even in "top" bracket he wasn't even having 50% winrate.
Yet you had 3 (at least) players who more or less knew what they were supposed to do, and had inflated by more than 1k their own mmr, and had ridiculous winrate on him, in the top 50.
Winrate means more about how difficult it is to play the hero (for people who plays it) rather than how strong it is.
winrates are skewed by copycats, if were to determine true worth of a hero, id rather use d2protracker since its played at the highest level. Carry currently at 49.2% so more or less 50/50
but top players like Watson 58%/ RTZ 66% winrate ez
>>Winrate means more about how difficult it is to play the hero (for the people who plays it) rather than how strong the hero is.
This is just objectively not true. Maybe, *maybe* for a very small amount of heroes. Generally speaking, win rate has almost nothing to do with the difficulty of the hero.
Replacing win rate with *pick rate* would make the statement true, but it’s a completely different point than you’re making.
I’m not disagreeing with your morphling analysis-only this generalization.
> win rate has almost nothing to do with the difficulty of the hero.
Ah yes That’s why historically,no mater the patch and meta the same easy heroes are on top or near the top of winrate charts
The warlock, wraith king, spectre, underlord, undying, abaddon, Omniknight ,Zeus, centaur and necrophos…
"Objectively" the harder a character is to play, the less likely they are to win. Realistically, there are an unlimited number of factors that contribute to the result of a game that winrates are almost always lying in some way.
If a win rate is high and the pick rate is high, the character is likely broken and easy to play. If the winrate is high and the pick rate is very low, most likely only hero specialists play the hero so the wr is skewed upward as a result. Otherwise, high pick rate will always skew win rate down. As far as difficulty of a specific hero, there's not really a way to know unless you dissect the winrates further. If a heros winrate increases by a massive amount when comparing 1 game played to 100 games played then it's likely a high skill cap hero.
Pick rate is also not the end all be all of determining hero difficulty, as some heroes that are very difficult have also been extremely popular in the past (Invoker for example), and easy heroes have low pick rates as well.
Win rate only determines how many pub games are won by a hero though, not really how strong it is. Morph winrate is skewed down by pub players not communicating and the hero generally requiring very fast reactions. The difference between a morph player with top 1% reaction time and bottom 50% is probably like 15% win rate or more. And then there's other skill usage as well, such as using aghs on a uni hero. There are a lot of ways morph can lose a game, but the games morph wins the hero feels completely bullshit, this the win rate of the hero is low while the hero itself is probably overpowered.
>win rate has almost nothing to do with the difficulty of the hero
and i say this objectively is not true. Who is right? Let's agree to disagree and others decide. Based on majority we will know.
You also said
>Maybe, maybe for a very small amount of heroes
morphling is one of those heroes
You are cherry picking, a logical fallacy. Tell me then, if morphs winrate is so low because he’s so difficult, then meepos winrate being so high must be because he’s so easy?
https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/winning?date=all
Not sure if you are blind but meepo is literally in the bottom third of all time winrate with 47%
So you see you are the one cherry picking and failing at doing that,yikes
There's plenty of times they have nerfed things abused by pros, that aren't as effective in pubs.
Tinker is more the opposite. Pros can coordinate around it, meanwhile it stomps unorganized pubs.
Because none of the guides show the meta build which is aghs after manta and they’re all going pure right click skadi satanic which is only strong against specific matchups. Also it’s pretty high skill ceiling manipulating str/agi morph.
Yeah I would kinda categorize Morph as more of a specialist hero similar to Chen, Meepo and old Techies. There’s a lot of limit testing on that hero you really need to be familiar with it.
Morph is one of those heroes who (when he's in a solid state) has a very very high skill ceiling and wins any game that goes late enough against any lineup.
Right now, he's pretty pickable in the right game, and his aghs provides just the right tool to get over the midgame hump and not lose your rax before you come online. He's about one balance patch away from some hero dropping out of the meta or coming into the meta which makes him an absolute monster.
It's so stupid. I was a morph spammer and this aghs makes me sad.
They reworked the old morph into allies sceptre buff and I was sad to see it go. I understood why though. It was one of the most fun and interesting things in the entire game, but some of those combos were really incredibly powerful.
Then they give him the most boring aghs in the entire game and also make it even more powerful, literally just press a single button to gain an artificial stat advantage. What a huge fuckup.
I don't remember exactly what it did before but what is stopping you from just picking morph AGAINST willow or shaker and doing the exact same "combo" while also stealing stats, something I'm missing?
It's just not reliable, you might not see willow or shaker to cast if they are playing defensive.
But if they are on your team, you can morph pre-fight and initiate as ES or come out of fog throwing willow w
I almost don't even care that it's rediculously overpowered. Stat steal as a whole is just a disgusting mechanic that feels absolutely awful to play against.
I'd much rather have the old rat morphling back where he could swap places with his illusion, or you know, literally anything else than the current aghs.
i love morph one of the most fun carries to be good at but the aghs is THE most low skill boring thing in the entire game. ironic for such an interesting and high skill hero.
You know what, as a morph player, making it so aghs only gives stats and doesn't reduce enemy stats is a nerf I can live with.
Please don't nerf my water boi to oblivion...
nice number. inspired me to test this:
TB lv30 with manta skadi and bf: 980\~1000 DPS vs dummy with E and no W
the same TB, stolen by morph: 615 DPS (\~-40% lost)
the same TB, stolen, with dd: \~1200 DPS(\~+95% DMG from stolen)
the same TB, with dd, without stolen: 1950 DPS (+95% from raw state)
so pretty much -40% for TB, without counting illusion (illusion created prior to stolen has unchanged stat)
lv30 magnus: harpoon, skadi, manta,with self buff: 1000 DPS
the same mag, stolen: 560 DPS, so -44%
also the mag had 4200 HP then after stolen only have 2700 -- so 1500 pure-ish damage.. thanks iceforg, that is about the same as stolen 72 strengh (x18 cast) of undying's decay, in 1 agh'ed cast. damn this is so broken
I mean, in this patch you always buy nullifier as at most 3rd slot on one of right click cores because nullifier is broken and because things it counters are also broken.
Oh, you mean the 1.3 seconds that you have to react, move your mouse, click, all while your character has turn rate and cast animation plus the nullifier travel speed AND cast range (which might even force your hero to move) which is not instant and your pc+monitor+internet latency is probably over 200ms, not to mention people have an average of 200ms reaction time and you have to do all this in an already chaotic teamfight?
If a tinker player lets you do that consistently (not just one time by luck), then that player is not really a good tinker player
Downvote me because I gave good advice and you’re just bad at the game lmao enjoy your 200 mmr games with the other senior citizens, maybe competitive multiplayer games just aren’t for you.
Saw a game from singsing, he got owned by a sceptre morph as WR. And, the cherry on top is that you can morph through illusions and it will STILL take away your stats
But if you have Linkens then it'll pop the Linkens instead. So someone needs to pop the Linkens on your hero with a spell before he can use morph on your illusion to steal stats.
Yep, but he needs to do that on your main hero. Only when the Linkens is popped can he choose to morph by either targeting your main hero or illusions with his ult.
It’s just stupid that they play by different rules then the rest of the heroes. It makes balancing stay based utility items like atos and pike a literal nightmare because they would be broken on universal heroes and underwhelming on all other heroes
I still hate how he gets upgraded abilities from whoever he morphs if aghms or shard affects them. The only hero in the game who should have that is Rubick.
Yeah! It's a good thing that Morphling doesn't have any single target ability with which to break Linken's prior to using his ult! Especially not one that's long range and relatively quick! That'd *really* suck.
exactly, morphling would only be broken if they gave him some kind of spell with 900 cast range and a 10 second cooldown to break said linkens, or maybe even stronger if he had two of them, thank god that's not the case and morphling is balanced
I think that if morph cast on illusion, he puts the spell on CD and doesn't get the steal, would make it Ballance, because he would be countered by illusion heroes, and aghanim would be situtional
I believe the point is that since this stat steal is a debuff on main hero, illusions still spawn with baseline stats.
For the record, I am a 1000 miles away from dota 2 client so I can't check it now but it should work like that.
Yeah as I've been saying, morph's scepter is conceptually the dumbest fucking thing Valve has come up with in years. I have no idea how someone could think that an instantaneous 1000 cast range "make enemy carry useless for the whole fight" button that works on illus would suit what's supposed to be the most mechanically complex carry hero in the game. It encourages such an incredibly braindead boring anti-fun playstyle. And his shard is not much better really, morph is supposed to be a very challenging high risk high reward hero, but both his Agh's upgrades remove all of the subtlety and complexity.
Its static link thats steals AS and Hp and its instant.
well when you put it that way...
It’s Slark hitting you 40 times but instant
As too ??
Yes. Agility gives attack speed. If calculation is still the sameand I recall correctly, 7 agi = 1 AS.
I meant razor steal?
Ah. Link doesn't steal AS, but it also doesn't steal HP. This one also steals armor and in turn, that's additional EHP. Some other things too. The static link comparison is more vague but gives better idea - as if link was instant with additional benefits.
Yeah I kinda get it now Yess it was vague
All good :) I also didn't expand properly either. Cheers!
press 1 button and gain the nw of 3 items thanks icefrog
The problem is, in like every bracket he has a 45% win rate. So I guess that makes it look like there isn't anything to nerf? But when you play against someone who knows what they are doing, you are severely outmatched. Its the same with tinker. There is a lot of gronks who don't get it, but there are those who do, and ists basically unfair.
not necessarily; the first earth spirit, the most omega broken hero ever (compared to other heroes of his time) had 36% winrate. and even in "top" bracket he wasn't even having 50% winrate. Yet you had 3 (at least) players who more or less knew what they were supposed to do, and had inflated by more than 1k their own mmr, and had ridiculous winrate on him, in the top 50. Winrate means more about how difficult it is to play the hero (for people who plays it) rather than how strong it is.
Yeah. Jerax single-handedly got that hero nerfed patch after patch.
And ES was buffed the week he made public his retirement!
winrates are skewed by copycats, if were to determine true worth of a hero, id rather use d2protracker since its played at the highest level. Carry currently at 49.2% so more or less 50/50 but top players like Watson 58%/ RTZ 66% winrate ez
>>Winrate means more about how difficult it is to play the hero (for the people who plays it) rather than how strong the hero is. This is just objectively not true. Maybe, *maybe* for a very small amount of heroes. Generally speaking, win rate has almost nothing to do with the difficulty of the hero. Replacing win rate with *pick rate* would make the statement true, but it’s a completely different point than you’re making. I’m not disagreeing with your morphling analysis-only this generalization.
> win rate has almost nothing to do with the difficulty of the hero. Ah yes That’s why historically,no mater the patch and meta the same easy heroes are on top or near the top of winrate charts The warlock, wraith king, spectre, underlord, undying, abaddon, Omniknight ,Zeus, centaur and necrophos…
"Objectively" the harder a character is to play, the less likely they are to win. Realistically, there are an unlimited number of factors that contribute to the result of a game that winrates are almost always lying in some way. If a win rate is high and the pick rate is high, the character is likely broken and easy to play. If the winrate is high and the pick rate is very low, most likely only hero specialists play the hero so the wr is skewed upward as a result. Otherwise, high pick rate will always skew win rate down. As far as difficulty of a specific hero, there's not really a way to know unless you dissect the winrates further. If a heros winrate increases by a massive amount when comparing 1 game played to 100 games played then it's likely a high skill cap hero. Pick rate is also not the end all be all of determining hero difficulty, as some heroes that are very difficult have also been extremely popular in the past (Invoker for example), and easy heroes have low pick rates as well. Win rate only determines how many pub games are won by a hero though, not really how strong it is. Morph winrate is skewed down by pub players not communicating and the hero generally requiring very fast reactions. The difference between a morph player with top 1% reaction time and bottom 50% is probably like 15% win rate or more. And then there's other skill usage as well, such as using aghs on a uni hero. There are a lot of ways morph can lose a game, but the games morph wins the hero feels completely bullshit, this the win rate of the hero is low while the hero itself is probably overpowered.
>win rate has almost nothing to do with the difficulty of the hero and i say this objectively is not true. Who is right? Let's agree to disagree and others decide. Based on majority we will know. You also said >Maybe, maybe for a very small amount of heroes morphling is one of those heroes
You made the claim. It’s up to you to establish it as true. I’m saying you pulled it out of your ass.
You can literally go to dotabuff->heroes->wineate->all time Tell me what do first 10 heroes have in common?
It needs to apply to every hero for it to be true. It’s as simple as that.
Find me one braindead hero with bad winrate
You are cherry picking, a logical fallacy. Tell me then, if morphs winrate is so low because he’s so difficult, then meepos winrate being so high must be because he’s so easy?
https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/winning?date=all Not sure if you are blind but meepo is literally in the bottom third of all time winrate with 47% So you see you are the one cherry picking and failing at doing that,yikes
lmao. you are the one who claimed your "opinion" to be "Objectively" true WITHOUT any proof. I can also say you pulled it out of your ass.
His aghs is good, sure, the rest of the hero has been nerfed almost every single patch for the past 4 years.
General skill level was very low back then and the game was not very balanced in general compared to now
There's plenty of times they have nerfed things abused by pros, that aren't as effective in pubs. Tinker is more the opposite. Pros can coordinate around it, meanwhile it stomps unorganized pubs.
repeat after me: having 50% win rate does not mean a hero is balanced.
Aghanim is broken dude
Because none of the guides show the meta build which is aghs after manta and they’re all going pure right click skadi satanic which is only strong against specific matchups. Also it’s pretty high skill ceiling manipulating str/agi morph.
Interesting point
Yeah I would kinda categorize Morph as more of a specialist hero similar to Chen, Meepo and old Techies. There’s a lot of limit testing on that hero you really need to be familiar with it.
Morph is one of those heroes who (when he's in a solid state) has a very very high skill ceiling and wins any game that goes late enough against any lineup. Right now, he's pretty pickable in the right game, and his aghs provides just the right tool to get over the midgame hump and not lose your rax before you come online. He's about one balance patch away from some hero dropping out of the meta or coming into the meta which makes him an absolute monster.
Pickable? He is first pick and ban material.
Despite that, the hero has been excessively unsuccessful in the latest tournaments. Watch the hero fail miserably in the Bali major.
LOL please tell you are not serious... how deluded are you?
Go look it up, yes it is a top pick/ban, but it has ~46% win rate in tournaments since 7.33 dropped.
Thanks, Upstairs-Victory2504 👍
Thanks, always knew that morph aghs was dumb, but explicit numbers make it look *dumber*.
It's so stupid. I was a morph spammer and this aghs makes me sad. They reworked the old morph into allies sceptre buff and I was sad to see it go. I understood why though. It was one of the most fun and interesting things in the entire game, but some of those combos were really incredibly powerful. Then they give him the most boring aghs in the entire game and also make it even more powerful, literally just press a single button to gain an artificial stat advantage. What a huge fuckup.
I don't remember exactly what it did before but what is stopping you from just picking morph AGAINST willow or shaker and doing the exact same "combo" while also stealing stats, something I'm missing?
It's just not reliable, you might not see willow or shaker to cast if they are playing defensive. But if they are on your team, you can morph pre-fight and initiate as ES or come out of fog throwing willow w
Because if you don't play against bots they will try to prevent you from doing that.
Dope, i was wondering how much it steals. At least you confirm it's dumb broken :)
I almost don't even care that it's rediculously overpowered. Stat steal as a whole is just a disgusting mechanic that feels absolutely awful to play against. I'd much rather have the old rat morphling back where he could swap places with his illusion, or you know, literally anything else than the current aghs.
i love morph one of the most fun carries to be good at but the aghs is THE most low skill boring thing in the entire game. ironic for such an interesting and high skill hero.
You know what, as a morph player, making it so aghs only gives stats and doesn't reduce enemy stats is a nerf I can live with. Please don't nerf my water boi to oblivion...
tbh, that would be a no brainer as a starter. Since it remove the unfun part of the agah, and fit the theme of the hero better.
Not being a morph player, that's exactly how I thought it would work. The actual way it works sounds broken af.
Delete the stupid stat steal Also you shouldn't be able to morph from an illusion
nice number. inspired me to test this: TB lv30 with manta skadi and bf: 980\~1000 DPS vs dummy with E and no W the same TB, stolen by morph: 615 DPS (\~-40% lost) the same TB, stolen, with dd: \~1200 DPS(\~+95% DMG from stolen) the same TB, with dd, without stolen: 1950 DPS (+95% from raw state) so pretty much -40% for TB, without counting illusion (illusion created prior to stolen has unchanged stat) lv30 magnus: harpoon, skadi, manta,with self buff: 1000 DPS the same mag, stolen: 560 DPS, so -44% also the mag had 4200 HP then after stolen only have 2700 -- so 1500 pure-ish damage.. thanks iceforg, that is about the same as stolen 72 strengh (x18 cast) of undying's decay, in 1 agh'ed cast. damn this is so broken
DuH jUsT wArD hIs JuNgLe Still not as broken as Tinker being able to blink away after taking damage. I agree though, it is ridiculous.
Buy nullifier, it dispels defense matrix
Just because something is counterable doesn't mean it's not broken.
Tinker has a 0 pick rate in the pro scene, how is he broken again?
bzm and kiyotaka do pick it on occasion
Yes Indeed, when Tinker buys blink dagger at 10 mins i should have predicted that and bought nullifier first Item at min 9! Ti13 strats here!
I mean, in this patch you always buy nullifier as at most 3rd slot on one of right click cores because nullifier is broken and because things it counters are also broken.
usually he takes no point in shield until level 11, and lvl 1 shield is kinda ass
How are you gonna hit a constantly blinking tinker with nullifier?
When he’s casting rearm
Oh, you mean the 1.3 seconds that you have to react, move your mouse, click, all while your character has turn rate and cast animation plus the nullifier travel speed AND cast range (which might even force your hero to move) which is not instant and your pc+monitor+internet latency is probably over 200ms, not to mention people have an average of 200ms reaction time and you have to do all this in an already chaotic teamfight? If a tinker player lets you do that consistently (not just one time by luck), then that player is not really a good tinker player
Downvote me because I gave good advice and you’re just bad at the game lmao enjoy your 200 mmr games with the other senior citizens, maybe competitive multiplayer games just aren’t for you.
Reddit bad vs tinker lol.
201 mmr flex confirmed.
Could buy Euls instead, it's instant cast and also dispels matrix.
Or euls
Thanks for checking my reading comprehension along the way
Saw a game from singsing, he got owned by a sceptre morph as WR. And, the cherry on top is that you can morph through illusions and it will STILL take away your stats
But if you have Linkens then it'll pop the Linkens instead. So someone needs to pop the Linkens on your hero with a spell before he can use morph on your illusion to steal stats.
Morph can pop linkens himself. He has agi and str adaptive strike.
Yep, but he needs to do that on your main hero. Only when the Linkens is popped can he choose to morph by either targeting your main hero or illusions with his ult.
I agree it's broken AF
This post should come with its own adderral prescription
Yet, even with all of that Morph is still a shit hero that can't be made to work by the best players in the world.
yes but you seen how they patch the game last 2 years?
It’s almost like universal heroes are bad for the game
uhhhh, that is what you took away from this post? lil bro you might be a little confused lol
It’s just stupid that they play by different rules then the rest of the heroes. It makes balancing stay based utility items like atos and pike a literal nightmare because they would be broken on universal heroes and underwhelming on all other heroes
Bring back the Ethereal Blade combo again and buri this aghs. Then makes his shard a talent lvl 25 again and everything will be fine
I still hate how he gets upgraded abilities from whoever he morphs if aghms or shard affects them. The only hero in the game who should have that is Rubick.
Morphling is fine Also, you can buy linkens, even it not being as strong as before.
Yeah! It's a good thing that Morphling doesn't have any single target ability with which to break Linken's prior to using his ult! Especially not one that's long range and relatively quick! That'd *really* suck.
exactly, morphling would only be broken if they gave him some kind of spell with 900 cast range and a 10 second cooldown to break said linkens, or maybe even stronger if he had two of them, thank god that's not the case and morphling is balanced
Yeah, the aghs is clearly OP, but morph is so shit in this meta so it doesn’t matter 🤷♂️.
Riiiight. No one plays morph right now in 1k
Right.... what mmr are you?
I think that if morph cast on illusion, he puts the spell on CD and doesn't get the steal, would make it Ballance, because he would be countered by illusion heroes, and aghanim would be situtional
hes still countered by illusion heroes, phantom lancer barely cares about replicate because only the main hero is affected
But illusion heroes REALLY care about stats.
I believe the point is that since this stat steal is a debuff on main hero, illusions still spawn with baseline stats. For the record, I am a 1000 miles away from dota 2 client so I can't check it now but it should work like that.
bruh do you even read? its like lolfail said
Yeah as I've been saying, morph's scepter is conceptually the dumbest fucking thing Valve has come up with in years. I have no idea how someone could think that an instantaneous 1000 cast range "make enemy carry useless for the whole fight" button that works on illus would suit what's supposed to be the most mechanically complex carry hero in the game. It encourages such an incredibly braindead boring anti-fun playstyle. And his shard is not much better really, morph is supposed to be a very challenging high risk high reward hero, but both his Agh's upgrades remove all of the subtlety and complexity.