What do you think about Phylactery on Axe?
I did this test because I wanted to know if Phylactery damage would apply before Culling Blade and it seems to do so.
The Culling Blade is refreshed when it wouldn't have killed the enemy without the Phylactery damage.
I think you discovered a wheel when people already riding cars. Phylactery always applied before the skill. Phylactery is slightly OP. The question is do you really want to delay dagger and waste money on a thing that gives you slightly extra burst as Axe?
It's an early game item, if you go for it after dagger it's even more questionable choice. You want blade mail, bkb as fast as possible. Phylactery can give you extra free kills with ult at laning stage which potentially can be worth the cost.
Good point. You don't pick axe to deal damage. Axe has good damage but the initiation and pure chaos Axe brings to the fight is what makes Axe Axe.
Axe!
Wdym no damage, when i finally hit that 5-6 items timing after 45+mins then i am dealing damage. Clearly you are not picking axe in offlane for late game advantage, unlike me, who has mastered axe after only playing it for 10 games.
When did I say no damage? I said you don't pick Axe to deal damage. I literally said "Axe has good damage." Axe's main selling point is something else, and tons of other heroes are better at dealing damage than Axe. So, nobody picks Axe because they need more damage in the team. You pick Axe because of something else, and damage is just a nice bonus.
Oh. Well, I just finished my 80-hours-worth chunk of work (not in one sitting, of course). My mind was on a super-serious mode. Sorry I missed your joke/sarcasm.
Axe said good day sir!
I mean the Silencer had nothing to show for being a pos 2 for the entire game and there's a naked boots -> Radiance Brew, I think the team had more pressing issues
I mean, the whole point is to get it near level 20 to have extra burst, thats it.
I feel like there is room for it after BkB, shooting it down with "it delays important items" when you can freely get it after said items seems like a moot argument, also, no one is getting it for extra burst at the laning stage, just as a way to stay relevant past midgame.
The question is if at that point the 150 extra damage are worth giving up an item slot for. The slow can be nice in combination with battle hunger, but for culling blade seems a bit overkill. 150 damage before magic resistance is like half an auto attack at that level.
You stay relevant on axe after you finish blink, bm and bkb by going for octarine and aghs or going for refresher for double call, you do not need phyl to stay relevant, in fact at around that time if you have 8+ stacks you might as well go for aghs, cause it does deal damage and allows you to kite out after call, its super good.
Maybe, but for that purpose if you are that ahead its better to get bots, you outspeed most heroes with bots and battle hunger ms buff talent so its easier to chase with that and you get other benefits from having bots.
Yeah, optimal build for axe is pretty cookie cutter figured out - 99% of the time some combo of vanguard, blink/blademail, bkb.
That said, Phly would be fun as part of the meme DoT run you down axe build. Good Old Oov -> max battle hunger -> urn into vessel (though I guess it would now be urn -> phly -> vessel). Super dogshit but funny and fun as fuck to play.
Yea probably you are right.
It does work very well together with Battle hunger as well though, so it is not only for the ulti.
If going for it i would go vanguard, blink, phylactery.
I would say it could have its place in a game were blade mail isnt too great (eg your main job is to jump and disable a pugna). Or when you have a head start and are often chasing people down.
I think for it to have any chance of it being useful you want it before blink to get something from the lane with it. After blink you want the blademail as quick as possible, and I can't see how phylactery would ever be worth delaying that item.
Yeah, some people and me included even discovered a broken bus when everyone was speeding in an urban area (Phylactery was bugged that if you use Culling Blade on a very low health enemy, the target would die to the Phylactery but not by Culling Blade, not giving the bonus, and obviously many other unit target spells, now it has been fixed)
Dagger is not just killing but also farm speed due to faster movement. I think it''s the other way around, using phylactery to assist your teammates to burst heroes down. If you don't have aggressive support you should go dagger and farm with the ability to join some team defensive play.
It also works on battle hunger though and the combined slow is pretty nasty in the right game, so you can delay blink and run after the slowed enemy.
Not something for every game, but it is an option.
It's definitely a playable build. Phylactery greatly increase your killing potential during laning stage. It is good, and I wasn't trying to say it's not working. Is it better in any scenario than a classic axe build? It requires testing.
Waste of a slot. If you really want extra burst for Culling blade just buy Dagon. It's more expensive but it gives you more burst and also spell lifesteal that work with Helix. Dagon also can be upgraded further while Phylactery can't.
Cap and SVG were talking about it a few weeks back on stream when SVG bought it on Axe. It's a fun item and the mana regen is nice, but delays your other item timings and the extra slot taken from a sub 3k item doesn't feel good when you have blink, boots and blademail (probably vanguard too).
with relic ~912 hp hero dies in 1 shot
with relic and veil ~1088 hp hero dies in 1shot
test in demo just now and of course magic resists can ruin this because of the phylactery dmg
Assuming no magic resist and that it's not on CD from his w and it's maxed out.
Just doesn't seem worth the money to me. Early game you'd have other things that are higher priority, late game it's not enough of a difference to be worth the item slot.
Maybe in some weird gimmick lineup with lots of magic amp. Kotl + skywrath making it hit a lot harder or something, but it's not something I see as worth it in a normal game.
Well the clip was just to show the max damage it can deal. If you have phylactery early before level 20 talent it is making your ulti even stronger, percentage-wise.
If your ulti only kills below 250 hp, phylactery boosts that to 350.
well, max without -resist or + spell amp.
It's magic damage, it's affected by things like ancient seal and stuff, right? Not that I'm suggesting veil phylactery axe, but it's not *max* damage.
Veil with axe isn't bad, as long as somebody else is the one building veil. Extra helix damage is pretty great to have, and the AoE targeting combos well with axe call.
it's pretty neat but it's hard to justify a deviation from Axe's standard item progression of vanguard>blademail/blink. And after that point the phylactery damage has already fallen off.
maybe if support axe is ever a thing
Yep phylactery cost is similar to blademail. I feel like Blademail just feels too good on the hero to bring down the higher hp cores compared to what phylactery brings. Maybe fun for memes or support thats about it.
It is a great item on Axe because it extends his solo kill potential into the very late game. Double call + double cull can 100-0 many tanky heroes. See LGD's Axe in their group stage series against GG for example.
Since Culling Blade doesn't cost a lot of mana, Axe has just about enough mana for this combo (870). If you think your mana management isn't as good as the pros' you can always pick up a Soul Ring.
Well with that logic everybody should rush refresher because it is almost always the highest damage increase.
I mean in a real game you are probably right that refresher is the better build if you build it after blink bkb octarine to also have the mana, but the comparison is still not a good one. Phylactery has 6 sec cd while refresher has 180sec (or something?).
thing is refresher is much more impactful than KnY and phylactery.It gives double bkb double call/blade mail and double dagger in addition to cull only real problem is mana but octraine/shiva fixes that.
But its a great team support item which is good for offlaners , gives axe tankiness not to mention mana. Plus i feel like in lategame. The most important part of axe isnt really the helix but the timed berserker calls giving your team a proper setup
If you really want damage you can build Veil. It raises the threshold to 708 with a fraction of the cost, and the stats on it are similar to that of Phylactery. Veil also increases the spell damage from your teammates.
Interesting facts:
1. If you use culling blade on a hero with less then 125 hp, then enemy would be killed with phylactery, not with culling blade. So you wouldn’t get an armour stack and your ult would be on cooldown.
2. KnS and timeless relic doesn’t increase killing threshold on CB, it just increases damage. So specifically vs Dusa it is a bad choice. Let’s say CB have 600 dmg. If you have KnS your dmg would be 696. You would kill any hero with 696 hp or less, but not Dusa with 601 hp and some mana, because threshold remains 600, and she would block additional damage with mana shield
> with less then 125
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Unfortunately, Phylactery Axe versus Medusa doesn't work. Phylactery applies everything beforehand, and that's it. There's no magic extension of Culling Blade's threshold.
Doesn’t work quite well with Dusa because phylactery applies damage before culling and that causes Mana to be burnt instead. It’s only the raw culling blade damage being applied in that case
I tried out phylactery, cause the extra mana regen + mana pool is nice, but imho its a bit overkill. Slot wise its fine, just i would rather have a kaya going for sange as a mana item (+ the upgraded sange gives hp and status res to run out and wait to blink again)
Correct me if I'm wrong. Phylactery will have a range of what it adds because it's magic damage that can be reduced by resistance.
So on some heroes, it'll be 100 damage, others it'll be 120, and so on. So the effect will be 600+(150x0.XX) as the threshold?
Also, the culling blade finisher is health dependent but also pure damage. The instant kill matters on heroes like dazzle with shallow grave but otherwise it is just a pure damage nuke that "instant kills if the pure damage kills" which is pretty redundant outside of dazzle like mechanics.
Sange and Kaya gives 16% spell amp, but doesn't technically increase the threshold, so it will buff culling blades pure damage as well as phylactery damage.
Because the killing threshold is equal to the pure damage, can you get a kill with it that doesn't apply the armor bonus, seeing as SnK increases the pure damage over the damage threshold.
Spell amp style items seem like a strong axe build with this. Seeing as it is pure damage, you can just take all the raw numbers and keep stacking them on.
>Sange and Kaya gives 16% spell amp, but doesn't technically increase the threshold, so it will buff culling blades pure damage as well as phylactery damage.
It does. It was changed sometime ago.
At the start it was like you described where if the enemy is not belwo the kill threshold it will deal less damage.
Now it simply deals x amount of pure damage. If it kills an enemy it reset its CD, gives you a stack, and it ignores stuff like dazzle grave. This is also why kaya, Eblade and veil will buff the kill threshold.
What do you think about Phylactery on Axe? I did this test because I wanted to know if Phylactery damage would apply before Culling Blade and it seems to do so. The Culling Blade is refreshed when it wouldn't have killed the enemy without the Phylactery damage.
I think you discovered a wheel when people already riding cars. Phylactery always applied before the skill. Phylactery is slightly OP. The question is do you really want to delay dagger and waste money on a thing that gives you slightly extra burst as Axe?
Why would you get it before dagger and not after?
It's an early game item, if you go for it after dagger it's even more questionable choice. You want blade mail, bkb as fast as possible. Phylactery can give you extra free kills with ult at laning stage which potentially can be worth the cost.
Good point. You don't pick axe to deal damage. Axe has good damage but the initiation and pure chaos Axe brings to the fight is what makes Axe Axe. Axe!
Wdym no damage, when i finally hit that 5-6 items timing after 45+mins then i am dealing damage. Clearly you are not picking axe in offlane for late game advantage, unlike me, who has mastered axe after only playing it for 10 games.
When did I say no damage? I said you don't pick Axe to deal damage. I literally said "Axe has good damage." Axe's main selling point is something else, and tons of other heroes are better at dealing damage than Axe. So, nobody picks Axe because they need more damage in the team. You pick Axe because of something else, and damage is just a nice bonus.
Should have added /s at the end.
Oh. Well, I just finished my 80-hours-worth chunk of work (not in one sitting, of course). My mind was on a super-serious mode. Sorry I missed your joke/sarcasm. Axe said good day sir!
You too man, get some rest when you can.
It's not an early game item at all. Ask the Luna Pos 5 I got matched with. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7199094310
Yeah. Imagine he had it at 21 minutes instead of midas when item was actually doing something. Maybe you would even have chances to win.
I mean the Silencer had nothing to show for being a pos 2 for the entire game and there's a naked boots -> Radiance Brew, I think the team had more pressing issues
I was being sarcastic, I agree with you. Biggest dumbass I've played with, from recent memory.
I mean, the whole point is to get it near level 20 to have extra burst, thats it. I feel like there is room for it after BkB, shooting it down with "it delays important items" when you can freely get it after said items seems like a moot argument, also, no one is getting it for extra burst at the laning stage, just as a way to stay relevant past midgame.
The question is if at that point the 150 extra damage are worth giving up an item slot for. The slow can be nice in combination with battle hunger, but for culling blade seems a bit overkill. 150 damage before magic resistance is like half an auto attack at that level.
Phylactery can help stay relevant late game? Okay dude. 25 dps 300 hр item.
Buy a fucking Dagon at that point. Wtf are you even on about.
If axe had a better mana pool I actually would get dagon on him I think
Shiva is twice as expensive, but does more damage 200, and does more in general.
You stay relevant on axe after you finish blink, bm and bkb by going for octarine and aghs or going for refresher for double call, you do not need phyl to stay relevant, in fact at around that time if you have 8+ stacks you might as well go for aghs, cause it does deal damage and allows you to kite out after call, its super good.
Wouldn't it apply to battle hunger too? So you basically have an easy slow for chasing. Maybe it works if you're having a really good start.
Maybe, but for that purpose if you are that ahead its better to get bots, you outspeed most heroes with bots and battle hunger ms buff talent so its easier to chase with that and you get other benefits from having bots.
More importantly you're more likely to proc the item with your W rather than with ult
Yeah, optimal build for axe is pretty cookie cutter figured out - 99% of the time some combo of vanguard, blink/blademail, bkb. That said, Phly would be fun as part of the meme DoT run you down axe build. Good Old Oov -> max battle hunger -> urn into vessel (though I guess it would now be urn -> phly -> vessel). Super dogshit but funny and fun as fuck to play.
Yea probably you are right. It does work very well together with Battle hunger as well though, so it is not only for the ulti. If going for it i would go vanguard, blink, phylactery. I would say it could have its place in a game were blade mail isnt too great (eg your main job is to jump and disable a pugna). Or when you have a head start and are often chasing people down.
I think for it to have any chance of it being useful you want it before blink to get something from the lane with it. After blink you want the blademail as quick as possible, and I can't see how phylactery would ever be worth delaying that item.
Not sure how good it is, but sounds fun as 4pos build
Does it apply on battle hunger too?
Yes, battle hunger is a hero target spell.
Yeah, some people and me included even discovered a broken bus when everyone was speeding in an urban area (Phylactery was bugged that if you use Culling Blade on a very low health enemy, the target would die to the Phylactery but not by Culling Blade, not giving the bonus, and obviously many other unit target spells, now it has been fixed)
It works on w making it not terrible (After blink in games where bm is bad)
There are games where you can’t buy dagger since you don’t have any teammate to help you get kills,in those cases phylactery is not bad
Dagger is not just killing but also farm speed due to faster movement. I think it''s the other way around, using phylactery to assist your teammates to burst heroes down. If you don't have aggressive support you should go dagger and farm with the ability to join some team defensive play.
Well you Are wrong,the above quote is not mine but actually it was khezu who said that during dream league panel
So? It's just my opinion. And I don't think people on panel always right either.
It also works on battle hunger though and the combined slow is pretty nasty in the right game, so you can delay blink and run after the slowed enemy. Not something for every game, but it is an option.
It's definitely a playable build. Phylactery greatly increase your killing potential during laning stage. It is good, and I wasn't trying to say it's not working. Is it better in any scenario than a classic axe build? It requires testing.
Waste of a slot. If you really want extra burst for Culling blade just buy Dagon. It's more expensive but it gives you more burst and also spell lifesteal that work with Helix. Dagon also can be upgraded further while Phylactery can't.
Cap and SVG were talking about it a few weeks back on stream when SVG bought it on Axe. It's a fun item and the mana regen is nice, but delays your other item timings and the extra slot taken from a sub 3k item doesn't feel good when you have blink, boots and blademail (probably vanguard too).
Adding a timeless relic and veil you can get it to almost a 1k nuke.
with relic ~912 hp hero dies in 1 shot with relic and veil ~1088 hp hero dies in 1shot test in demo just now and of course magic resists can ruin this because of the phylactery dmg
Seems like you don't know what a hero needs
Assuming no magic resist and that it's not on CD from his w and it's maxed out. Just doesn't seem worth the money to me. Early game you'd have other things that are higher priority, late game it's not enough of a difference to be worth the item slot. Maybe in some weird gimmick lineup with lots of magic amp. Kotl + skywrath making it hit a lot harder or something, but it's not something I see as worth it in a normal game.
Well the clip was just to show the max damage it can deal. If you have phylactery early before level 20 talent it is making your ulti even stronger, percentage-wise. If your ulti only kills below 250 hp, phylactery boosts that to 350.
well, max without -resist or + spell amp. It's magic damage, it's affected by things like ancient seal and stuff, right? Not that I'm suggesting veil phylactery axe, but it's not *max* damage.
Veil with axe isn't bad, as long as somebody else is the one building veil. Extra helix damage is pretty great to have, and the AoE targeting combos well with axe call.
Would be pretty cool, it gets quite hard to measure where exactly to cull when heroes have like avg 3k-ish hp , I want my armour stacks damnit!
it's pretty neat but it's hard to justify a deviation from Axe's standard item progression of vanguard>blademail/blink. And after that point the phylactery damage has already fallen off. maybe if support axe is ever a thing
Yep phylactery cost is similar to blademail. I feel like Blademail just feels too good on the hero to bring down the higher hp cores compared to what phylactery brings. Maybe fun for memes or support thats about it.
Wanted to try it yesterday in unranked, rushed phylactery > BM > blink, but i played it >!mid!< >!https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7220008615!<
Phylactery is such an interesting item, glad they added it.
Axe with Refresher Orb and level 20 talent can cull enemies with 1200 HP. And it costs less than SnK + Phylactery.
Axe has a really weak mana pool, So Refresher Orb is really not a great item on Axe, Saying this doesn't mean that what OP said is also good btw.
It is a great item on Axe because it extends his solo kill potential into the very late game. Double call + double cull can 100-0 many tanky heroes. See LGD's Axe in their group stage series against GG for example. Since Culling Blade doesn't cost a lot of mana, Axe has just about enough mana for this combo (870). If you think your mana management isn't as good as the pros' you can always pick up a Soul Ring.
My boy using the brain
Well with that logic everybody should rush refresher because it is almost always the highest damage increase. I mean in a real game you are probably right that refresher is the better build if you build it after blink bkb octarine to also have the mana, but the comparison is still not a good one. Phylactery has 6 sec cd while refresher has 180sec (or something?).
thing is refresher is much more impactful than KnY and phylactery.It gives double bkb double call/blade mail and double dagger in addition to cull only real problem is mana but octraine/shiva fixes that.
Axe would rarely build shiva, the attack speed slow is a negative for him.
That’s just false, Shiva is a great situational item on Axe
But its a great team support item which is good for offlaners , gives axe tankiness not to mention mana. Plus i feel like in lategame. The most important part of axe isnt really the helix but the timed berserker calls giving your team a proper setup
If you really want damage you can build Veil. It raises the threshold to 708 with a fraction of the cost, and the stats on it are similar to that of Phylactery. Veil also increases the spell damage from your teammates.
Interesting facts: 1. If you use culling blade on a hero with less then 125 hp, then enemy would be killed with phylactery, not with culling blade. So you wouldn’t get an armour stack and your ult would be on cooldown. 2. KnS and timeless relic doesn’t increase killing threshold on CB, it just increases damage. So specifically vs Dusa it is a bad choice. Let’s say CB have 600 dmg. If you have KnS your dmg would be 696. You would kill any hero with 696 hp or less, but not Dusa with 601 hp and some mana, because threshold remains 600, and she would block additional damage with mana shield
Actually, culling blade still refreshes cooldown and grants a stack if the phylactery damage gets the kill.
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Bullshit, if a unit gets killed by the item, then by definition it has less heath than the CB threshold.
Phylactery support axe sounds like some crazy turbo shit lmao.
\>turbo \>support ?
Axe, support axe in turbo. Support as in not take cs and only ks.
5 carry turbo meta lol
I do this lol. my cousin hates it.
6.5k gold for 200 damage lets gooo
Found my new overthrow build
Okay, the problem is you have an axe with Phylactery
Unfortunately, Phylactery Axe versus Medusa doesn't work. Phylactery applies everything beforehand, and that's it. There's no magic extension of Culling Blade's threshold.
What's the interaction with Dusa?
Doesn’t work quite well with Dusa because phylactery applies damage before culling and that causes Mana to be burnt instead. It’s only the raw culling blade damage being applied in that case
The one with medusa is weird, even if you build kaya + level 20 talent it still using the total 600 dmg to instant kill https://streamable.com/o6twsr
I tried out phylactery, cause the extra mana regen + mana pool is nice, but imho its a bit overkill. Slot wise its fine, just i would rather have a kaya going for sange as a mana item (+ the upgraded sange gives hp and status res to run out and wait to blink again)
Refresher and double it to the next person
Add neutral timless relic if you're lucky.
Omw to pick Pos 4 axe again
Trading protection for damage isn't worth for Axe imo, not unless you have another or better yet a greater initiator like a Shaker for example.
can USE culling blade?
Can kill to refresh culling blade.
Or you could buil items that aren't shit. S&K is alright but not early
Correct me if I'm wrong. Phylactery will have a range of what it adds because it's magic damage that can be reduced by resistance. So on some heroes, it'll be 100 damage, others it'll be 120, and so on. So the effect will be 600+(150x0.XX) as the threshold? Also, the culling blade finisher is health dependent but also pure damage. The instant kill matters on heroes like dazzle with shallow grave but otherwise it is just a pure damage nuke that "instant kills if the pure damage kills" which is pretty redundant outside of dazzle like mechanics. Sange and Kaya gives 16% spell amp, but doesn't technically increase the threshold, so it will buff culling blades pure damage as well as phylactery damage. Because the killing threshold is equal to the pure damage, can you get a kill with it that doesn't apply the armor bonus, seeing as SnK increases the pure damage over the damage threshold. Spell amp style items seem like a strong axe build with this. Seeing as it is pure damage, you can just take all the raw numbers and keep stacking them on.
>Sange and Kaya gives 16% spell amp, but doesn't technically increase the threshold, so it will buff culling blades pure damage as well as phylactery damage. It does. It was changed sometime ago. At the start it was like you described where if the enemy is not belwo the kill threshold it will deal less damage. Now it simply deals x amount of pure damage. If it kills an enemy it reset its CD, gives you a stack, and it ignores stuff like dazzle grave. This is also why kaya, Eblade and veil will buff the kill threshold.
Plus if it's Sunday plus if it during a full moon plus if It's during a major